Would be wonderful if he's there for the taking. I feel like these people never learn during draft season. We watched the games, we know what we all saw. Give me the guys who produced, even more so if they did it at big programs in big conferences.
no one ever provides any real answer or proof. Why is a skinnier guy more prone to devastating injury or failure in the NFL? And how? Where's the data that supports this claim? Answer? There is none. If anything there might even be data that contradicts this claim. Some of the smallest or most diminutive players had awesome careers. There might not be many to come along, but when they do, they tend to live up to things. I mean we know Deshaun Jackson on a level most don't. We know full well these guys can thrive. But nope, he's too small. And he's gonna get hurt...lol...ok then. There's no data suggesting this at all. None.
Would be wonderful if he's there for the taking. I feel like these people never learn during draft season. We watched the games, we know what we all saw. Give me the guys who produced, even more so if they did it at big programs in big conferences.
Exactly. He's lean, but he plays tough. Saban has praised his toughness and blocking, as has X. McKinney. He's not going to be asked to take on a DE in the blocking game, and won't be asked to do more than get in the way. He will be fine in the NFL.
no one ever provides any real answer or proof. Why is a skinnier guy more prone to devastating injury or failure in the NFL? And how? Where's the data that supports this claim? Answer? There is none. If anything there might even be data that contradicts this claim. Some of the smallest or most diminutive players had awesome careers. There might not be many to come along, but when they do, they tend to live up to things. I mean we know Deshaun Jackson on a level most don't. We know full well these guys can thrive. But nope, he's too small. And he's gonna get hurt...lol...ok then. There's no data suggesting this at all. None.
Agreed.
Some posters write off Smith because of his weight and others dismiss Waddle because of an ankle injury, with absolutely no insight to his medicals.
I think Smith is going to dominate in the NFL and if he's gone when the Giants pick and Waddle is still there, I trust the Giants to do their homework to ensure that Waddle will return to his previous self (medically) if they're interested in taking him.
I understand your reasoning, but I think the WR group has a ton of question marks, health concerns, productivity concerns. If Smith is in their top tier remaining and a position of extreme need doesn't match the grade, then you need to take the WR.
at this small size who were great. And if Smith couldn't gain weight at the quasi-NFL franchise Alabama Crimson Tide how will he suddenly gain weight in the official NFL?
Guy is great college WR, but way too small for the #11 investment.
Play the odds and pass on Smith at #11.
RE: The Giants just signed Golladay and John Ross....
1) They should be taking BPA
2) Ross, Shepard and even Slayton are nowhere near good enough to preclude a team from taking the BPA.
True that you always need to look at the talent of the player not the need of position. However, Slayton, Shepard, Ross, Engram, Rudolph, Barkley, Golladay, Pettis are all on the roster. There is 1 football. While injuries do happen, add Smith would make this position group very good and also croweded. I also think the draft is deep at WR. Could get one on day 2 to add to the mix.
So many of these guys do things to manipulate their weight as is and don't play anywhere near where they measure/weigh in at these things. Maybe he was just the one guy that didn't guzzle a gallon of water before he got on the scale....
Smith can play WR at a high level, that's all I care about.
About how awful last years WR group was, but now some people here are saying how deep this WR group is from adding an injury prone KG( not against the signing at all, if healthy he’ll be a 70/1100 guy imo.) If he gets injured again, it’s the same exact awful WR group minus Ross and Pettis who haven’t lived up to expectations. If Smith is BPA at 11, this WR group isn’t good enough to say “ah why take BPA and just fill an EDGE need.” You do what you can to help win games with the best football players possible.
Not exactly, Jackson was a 4.35 guy, like Waddle. I think the best comparison I’ve heard is Isaac Bruce....who had a similar slight build and wasn’t considered a burner but whose game was built on separation, which served him quite well.
much weight on. Everybody has a genetic limit based on a lot of factors and frame size. Now if they add "substances" that is a different story. He was training very hard at Alabama so it is not like he never did a squat before.
Good point about the motion at Alabama. Sarkasian was really good this year. He is a brilliant offensive mind imo.
I think Smith has a great future in the NFL but at 11 I want a Terrell Owens/Randy Moss type.
RE: The Giants just signed Golladay and John Ross....
Not exactly, Jackson was a 4.35 guy, like Waddle. I think the best comparison I’ve heard is Isaac Bruce....who had a similar slight build and wasn’t considered a burner but whose game was built on separation, which served him quite well.
Its worth noting too that Bruce, the better route runner and tactician, had 5000 more yards and 40 more TDs in his career while only playing 1 more season than Jackson. You sign up for Bruce at pick 11 in a heartbeat.
much weight on. Everybody has a genetic limit based on a lot of factors and frame size. Now if they add "substances" that is a different story. He was training very hard at Alabama so it is not like he never did a squat before.
Good point about the motion at Alabama. Sarkasian was really good this year. He is a brilliant offensive mind imo.
I think Smith has a great future in the NFL but at 11 I want a Terrell Owens/Randy Moss type.
This is my biggest issue. Sy thinks he can easily put on some weight, and I look at his frame and thinks it's going to be tough. His frame is really tiny, it's just not that he's skinny. After watching him all year, and initially being off of him, I just don't think it's that big deal if it doesn't play heavier than 170. It's a different day in the NFL and these guys are much better about not taking hits. Smith already he proved he can do that on the college level.
KG and Smith make an awesome 1a and 1b type pairing.
RE: John Ross ran a 4.22 and is 190 lbs, plus was a former top 10 pick.
I think the Giants want to see what they've got there before they take a guy like Smith, personally.
He ran a 4.22 in a straight line. Which would be great if he had an accompanying WR skill set to go along with it. He's signed for 1 year. I doubt the addition of Ross has any impact whatsoever on where they go in the draft.
RE: John Ross ran a 4.22 and is 190 lbs, plus was a former top 10 pick.
I think the Giants want to see what they've got there before they take a guy like Smith, personally.
I don’t think Ross will preclude them from drafting Smith. Ross is on a one year flier. If he plays well he may stick as our #3 or #4 if they part with Shep after 2021.
when you wnat a player but would be a HUGE red flag if you didn't.
166 in the off season is pretty damn slight. Not saying he can't be great or shouldn't be the pick but be honest in your overall assessment. 166 lbs at 6ft tall is great for
you and (especially at my age) but in the NFL it is cause for some scrutiny if not concern. he could see his weight down to the low 160's or even high 150's during the season. You don't gain weight during the season.
RE: The Giants just signed Golladay and John Ross....
Im with you. I am all for BPA, but people here acting like smith is light years above and beyond someone like parsons. If its parsons and smith there at 11, i am taking parsons. sure smith is BPA by a small margin, but need meets value with parsons.
I am not saying always draft for need but to say dont consider it is crazy. We have a solid young WR core and this draft is DEEP at WR. we can take one later on but address a need with a serious impact player at 11.
RE: RE: John Ross ran a 4.22 and is 190 lbs, plus was a former top 10 pick.
I think the Giants want to see what they've got there before they take a guy like Smith, personally.
He ran a 4.22 in a straight line. Which would be great if he had an accompanying WR skill set to go along with it. He's signed for 1 year. I doubt the addition of Ross has any impact whatsoever on where they go in the draft.
It probably doesn't other than the WR position on this roster is well accounted for now and allows them to look at other positions and be content with what they have for now.
Additionally, Ross is not the bum you are making him out to be:
Quote:
Ross wowed scouts at the 2017 NFL Combine, registering a 40-yard dash time of 4.22 seconds. That mark broke Chris Johnson's record time of 4.24 seconds set in 2008. Ross' time still stands as the fastest official 40-yard dash time at the Combine.
The speedy wide receiver spent four seasons at the University of Washington (with a redshirt year in 2015 due to a knee injury), but truly exploded onto the scene in his redshirt junior year. Playing in 14 games in 2016, Ross had 81 receptions for 1,150 yards and a whopping 17 touchdowns, adding 102 rushing yards and an additional score to his final stats. Ross also served as the Huskies' kick returner, taking 17 kickoffs for 411 yards (24.2 avg.) and a touchdown. His 17 receiving touchdowns ranked third in FBS.
Ross was considered one of college football's most explosive playmakers, and his accolades showed it. He earned First-Team All-Pac-12 honors in 2016, as well as being named the AP Pac-12 Player of the Year.
This was all five years ago. There's nothing to say he still can't develop. Look at Leonard Williams. This was a low risk, high potential signing.
RE: John Ross ran a 4.22 and is 190 lbs, plus was a former top 10 pick.
I think the Giants want to see what they've got there before they take a guy like Smith, personally.
John Ross has done virtually nothing in multiple NFL seasons and should not factor into this decision even a little bit.
I didn't say John Ross himself will decide it. I'm saying Ross AND Golloday being signed, as well as already having Sheppard and Slayton means they have a full room.
RE: The Giants just signed Golladay and John Ross....
If Smith/Waddle are sitting there and we don't, then you'll have your answer. I suspect if Smith is gone, we won't go WR which still gives you your answer but doesn't prove your point.
I think the Giants want Smith and a couple JAG's aren't going to stop them from doing so. This is a longterm investment to compliment Galloday and offset costs (we will cut Shepard after the season, for example).
The idea is that Smith should be a difference maker. None of the receivers they have other than Golladay can say that. Smith also complements Golladay well as the blazer with moves opposite the big, physical WR.
game that you thought the Giants would have a shot at drafting Devonta Smith, I would have laughed and told you that you were crazy. He would be the easiest pick the Giants have made in several decades.
no one ever provides any real answer or proof. Why is a skinnier guy more prone to devastating injury or failure in the NFL? And how? Where's the data that supports this claim? Answer? There is none. If anything there might even be data that contradicts this claim. Some of the smallest or most diminutive players had awesome careers. There might not be many to come along, but when they do, they tend to live up to things. I mean we know Deshaun Jackson on a level most don't. We know full well these guys can thrive. But nope, he's too small. And he's gonna get hurt...lol...ok then. There's no data suggesting this at all. None.
1000% agree with this. He played in the SEC, arguably the conf that puts the most guys in the NFL. Was he hurt all through college?
RE: John Ross ran a 4.22 and is 190 lbs, plus was a former top 10 pick.
from what I've heard and reading the tea leaves would not preclude them from picking Smith, whom they love. If he's there he's probably the pick. Unclear re: Waddle. If Smith is gone, then they probably pivot to Edge options.
RE: The Giants just signed Golladay and John Ross....
Shepard is likely gone next year due to the cap, Ross sucks and this WR unit sucks if Golladay gets injured. They desperately need another good WR in this group. Hopefully his measurements drop Smith to 11.
if they don't grab one somewhere in this draft. It would be a mistake not to do so. And would think/hope John Ross has nothing to do with decision either way.
I'm not going to let you guys twist what I said out of context.
I never said John Ross alone would influence the decision. And any talk specifically about John Ross by me has been in response to direct posts about John Ross.
What I said was, I believe they are content going into training camp with the WR room they have, after the signings of Golloday and Ross. They already have Slayton and Sheppard. That is enough to go into training camp with, IMO.
Wide receiver isn't our biggest need and, while both Smith and Waddle have great upside, they both have injury concerns. If not for that, I'd take either one at 11, but because of that, I wouldn't take either.
RE: I'm not going to let you guys twist what I said out of context.
I never said John Ross alone would influence the decision. And any talk specifically about John Ross by me has been in response to direct posts about John Ross.
What I said was, I believe they are content going into training camp with the WR room they have, after the signings of Golloday and Ross. They already have Slayton and Sheppard. That is enough to go into training camp with, IMO.
I understand you 100%. I think if we don't land a WR at 11 they are ok heading into the season with what we have. But sooner or later we will be upgrading, that's unquestionable IMO.
from what I've heard and reading the tea leaves would not preclude them from picking Smith, whom they love. If he's there he's probably the pick. Unclear re: Waddle. If Smith is gone, then they probably pivot to Edge options.
If he can be tossed around....that is a major issue.
It also seems Alabama had those concerns as he was always in motion
Bama didn't put him in motion any more than their other WR's, but motion is a big way to help WR's beat press coverage. And WR's don't need to win hand to hand combat to beat press. Watch Devonte Adams, he uses his quick feet to win those battles.
Smith has faced some top NCAA CB's and not only excelled, but dominated. I think he'll be fine.
We already know what we have in Slayton and Shepard
Slayton disappears, Shepard is what he is, a solid slot receiver. Neither one of these guys should stop us from drafting a WR that could be an upgrade at the position.
RE: The Giants just signed Golladay and John Ross....
You may be right about round 1, but if John Ross, Darius Slayton, and even Shep (injury prone and going into the last year of his contract) stop the Giants from drafting a WR, they should all be fired.
We'll see, they may decide it isn't enough of a priority at 11, but we can say the same thing about CB, and I don't think any of the ER's are worth the 11th pick. If Smith is there, he'll get a long look.
RE: RE: RE: John Ross ran a 4.22 and is 190 lbs, plus was a former top 10 pick.
Ross has played 4 NFL seasons and caught a grand total of 51 passes for 700+ yards and 10 TDs.
Again, in 4 NFL seasons.
Right now we have a fairly good idea what he is - not a very good NFL player.
John Ross has played 27 (started 20) total games in those 4 NFL seasons, due to injury. So the equivalent of LESS than 2 seasons.
The greatest ability in the NFL is availability. Ross is a flyer. Thus, the one year, cheap contract. If he hits - great. But I would not count on him at all at this point.
And, btw, I agree with you that we shouldn't take a WR at #11. We having bigger issues than WR. We can't consistently block the other team.
Our slot is one injury away from being cut or retiring next season. His backup has 11 career catches. No one knows whether Slayton will ever develop into a competent #2. Our backups on the outside (Ross + Mack) combined for just 9 catches last season.
Our skills positions have been so abysmal for so long, we've forgotten what a high-octane offense looks like and are excited by John Ross and his 51 career receptions and 10TDs since 2017.
Even with KG, this offense needs a serious infusion of talent at the skill positions. One for sure. Two if you're planning on Shep's exit (which we should).
Shepard is one hit away from his career being over
I don't understand this narrative that the Giants are alright at WR at all
John Ross is a shot in the dark
Golladay is coming off an injury
Slayton disappointed in Year 2
Shepard hasn't shown he can stay healthy
Engram is an enigma
Barkley is coming off an injury
There's not one pass catcher on our roster that's a sure thing right now. We're one injury away from being the same awful offense we were last year
They went out and paid premium money for Golloday.
Additionally, he is 6'4, which is the compliment to what they already have. They already have a bunch of 6 footers. Golloday was the compliment. Ross is the speed. Slayton was injured last year but has shown already he can be a competent two. Sheppard will finally play full time where he belongs. In the slot.
It is unlike the Giants to spend premium free agent money and then turn around and spend a premium draft pick on the same position. If they didn't sign Golloday I think they would be all in on Smith. But they did, so they are not.
I agree WR will be addressed down the line, but I think after spending big money in free agency on the position, they are done for this year.
I don't understand this narrative that the Giants are alright at WR at all
John Ross is a shot in the dark
Golladay is coming off an injury
Slayton disappointed in Year 2
Shepard hasn't shown he can stay healthy
Engram is an enigma
Barkley is coming off an injury
There's not one pass catcher on our roster that's a sure thing right now. We're one injury away from being the same awful offense we were last year
Totally agree. After backing up the Brinks Truck for KG, we seemingly solved the need for a #1 WR. And I have never thought the other cast of WRs were that bad. I think they were victims of Jones and the OL...
This is a good write up on the Smith weight debate.
It points out that Smith was the highest ranked WR last year v press coverage, in fact, he had the highest catch rate in the last 5 years. Former NFL CB Dominique Foxworth said that smaller quicker WR's were tougher to press because if they can use their quickness to get by you - goodbye.
It has also been pointed out that he played for an offensive juggernaut, but, while true, it is helpful to point out that he was the best player on that juggernaut!
The Giants have made errors 'checking the box' on positions. They are in a weird spot right now. They have a lot of questions marks but not a lot of holes, if that makes sense. They have flexibility this draft to go BPA.
They are in dire need of elite talent - especially on the offensive side of the ball.
RE: This is a good write up on the Smith weight debate.
It has also been pointed out that he played for an offensive juggernaut, but, while true, it is helpful to point out that he was the best player on that juggernaut!
Yeah except he wasn’t. In his first 3 seasons he was never considered the best of the quartet. You could say he was last year...but that was once Waddle went down to injury...Waddle out produced Smith in the games they played together in 2020 and was very much looking like the lead dog for Bama in 2020...Waddles injury was probably the best thing that could have happened to Smith as it made him the focal point of the offense, a role he was never cast in before.
RE: RE: RE: John Ross ran a 4.22 and is 190 lbs, plus was a former top 10 pick.
I think the Giants want to see what they've got there before they take a guy like Smith, personally.
John Ross has done virtually nothing in multiple NFL seasons and should not factor into this decision even a little bit.
I didn't say John Ross himself will decide it. I'm saying Ross AND Golloday being signed, as well as already having Sheppard and Slayton means they have a full room.
Plus Pettis, Sills, Mack... Obviously not future HOFers but low risk, high potential reward if any of these lottery tickets pan out. While I myself would definitely love Smith at #11, I agree with Britt. I can see the front office going a different way and maybe grab someone in the later rounds.
FWIW, I think Joe Judge would LOVE to have Smith in that WR room. Hard work, dedication, team-first attitude, max effort, and a win-at-all-costs mentality... I can see Judge being one of his biggest cheerleaders.
Devonte Smith 6' 0" 166 lbs
Marvin Harrison 6′ 0″ 179 lbs
Isaac Bruce 6′ 0″ 188 lbs
Victor Cruz 6' 0" 204 lbs
So D Smith is about 7% lighter (13 lbs) than the very light Marvin Harrison, about 12% lighter (22 lbs) than Isaac Bruce and about 19% (28 lbs) lighter than Cruz.
I think D Smith height / weight ratio is a non-trivial (not necessarily a "show stopper") concern. The Giants need to think long and hard as to how durable / available do they think D Smith will be in his career before drafting him at #11 IMHO.
The Giants have made errors 'checking the box' on positions. They are in a weird spot right now. They have a lot of questions marks but not a lot of holes, if that makes sense. They have flexibility this draft to go BPA.
They are in dire need of elite talent - especially on the offensive side of the ball.
Agree. Just because they have quantity at certain positional units doesn't mean they have quality. WR is clearly one of those units.
RE: John Ross ran a 4.22 and is 190 lbs, plus was a former top 10 pick.
I think the Giants want to see what they've got there before they take a guy like Smith, personally.
Ross has also been injury prone (more so than KG), has a higher career drop rate than Engram (yikes!) and was only given a modest 1 yr contract (for good reason).
I think UConn put it well above, saying Ross is a "dart throw". Not someone who will preclude the Giants from drafting Smith.
RE: RE: John Ross ran a 4.22 and is 190 lbs, plus was a former top 10 pick.
I think the Giants want to see what they've got there before they take a guy like Smith, personally.
Hey Britt, sorry I'm a little late to this thread. I understand you're not just talking about Ross, but with all due respect, I don't think Ross, Shep and Slayton combined will stop us from taking Smith, if he's there. I could be wrong. I might lean towards trading down (if they can), getting an Edge and taking WR in 2nd. Just think our WR corps can still use a nice upgrade.
RE: RE: This is a good write up on the Smith weight debate.
It has also been pointed out that he played for an offensive juggernaut, but, while true, it is helpful to point out that he was the best player on that juggernaut!
Yeah except he wasn’t. In his first 3 seasons he was never considered the best of the quartet. You could say he was last year...but that was once Waddle went down to injury...Waddle out produced Smith in the games they played together in 2020 and was very much looking like the lead dog for Bama in 2020...Waddles injury was probably the best thing that could have happened to Smith as it made him the focal point of the offense, a role he was never cast in before.
His junior year, on a team with 2 future 1st round WR picks, he led the team in catches, yards and TD’s. This year he had possibly the best receiving year in NCAA history. If you don’t think that makes him the best player on that offense, I don’t know what to tell you.
Our second, third and fourth receivers suck! They are ok at 3,4,5. We need another receiver, we need OL, we need an edge, we need a DT. That’s round 1-4 in any order. A round 6 RB and throw in something else for special teams and there you have it.
RE: The Giants just signed Golladay and John Ross....
It has also been pointed out that he played for an offensive juggernaut, but, while true, it is helpful to point out that he was the best player on that juggernaut!
Yeah except he wasn’t. In his first 3 seasons he was never considered the best of the quartet. You could say he was last year...but that was once Waddle went down to injury...Waddle out produced Smith in the games they played together in 2020 and was very much looking like the lead dog for Bama in 2020...Waddles injury was probably the best thing that could have happened to Smith as it made him the focal point of the offense, a role he was never cast in before.
His junior year, on a team with 2 future 1st round WR picks, he led the team in catches, yards and TD’s. This year he had possibly the best receiving year in NCAA history. If you don’t think that makes him the best player on that offense, I don’t know what to tell you.
That’s great he led in catches, he was a complimentary player...there’s a reason he didn’t enter the draft after his junior year...Jeudy and Ruggs were both getting drafted ahead of Smith and he didn’t like where he was being projected. If he was truly regarded as the best of the bunch after his junior year(which has never been suggested) he’d have come out and we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.
I think the issue of Smith's slender build . . . .
is less one of potential injury than of physical limitations inherent in dealing with press coverage. While I'm sure smaller bones aren't as strong as larger ones as an absolute, there are other factors that mitigate. But if a bigger, stronger DB is bumping and pushing him off line, there's only so much he can do to resist it.
So the best use of his ability would seem to be to scheme him where he can play more in space, and where he doesn't need to deal with it as much as if he were in-line. Haven't watched much school ball, but it was mentioned Alabama realized this and used him accordingly.
That’s great he led in catches, he was a complimentary player...there’s a reason he didn’t enter the draft after his junior year...Jeudy and Ruggs were both getting drafted ahead of Smith and he didn’t like where he was being projected. If he was truly regarded as the best of the bunch after his junior year(which has never been suggested) he’d have come out and we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.
A complimentary player does not have the single greatest receiving year in NCAA history, sorry.
RE: Sy'56 grades Smith at 87 and Waddel at 82: a big difference
It's worth noting too that Bruce, the better route runner and tactician, had 5000 more yards and 40 more TDs in his career while only playing 1 more season than Jackson. You sign up for Bruce at pick 11 in a heartbeat.
These Isaac Bruce references for DeVonta Smith kept bothering me, because I don't remember Bruce being that slight of build. I finally looked him up, Pro Football Reference has him at 6' 188 lbs. That struck me as what I remember. He's not a physical comp at all at ~20 lbs heavier on a 6' frame. Unless I've missed a lot of clarifications.
It's worth noting too that Bruce, the better route runner and tactician, had 5000 more yards and 40 more TDs in his career while only playing 1 more season than Jackson. You sign up for Bruce at pick 11 in a heartbeat.
These Isaac Bruce references for DeVonta Smith kept bothering me, because I don't remember Bruce being that slight of build. I finally looked him up, Pro Football Reference has him at 6' 188 lbs. That struck me as what I remember. He's not a physical comp at all at ~20 lbs heavier on a 6' frame. Unless I've missed a lot of clarifications.
I remember an interview where someone asked him which one he'd prefer to cover - the tall WR or the quick shifty smaller WR. He said the tall WR, b/c the quick shifty WRs were much harder to cover.
Personally the obsession over Smith's weight is bizarre. He's not a TE and clearly he's not going to win any bench press contests.
He's shifty, quick, a great route runner and except for a hand injury doesn't seem to have any injury concerns. Literally no evidence exists from his college career that suggests he's an injury risk.
I remember an interview where someone asked him which one he'd prefer to cover - the tall WR or the quick shifty smaller WR. He said the tall WR, b/c the quick shifty WRs were much harder to cover.
Personally the obsession over Smith's weight is bizarre. He's not a TE and clearly he's not going to win any bench press contests.
He's shifty, quick, a great route runner and except for a hand injury doesn't seem to have any injury concerns. Literally no evidence exists from his college career that suggests he's an injury risk.
If he's there at #11 you run to the podium.
Well tbf Jason Sehorn was 6 2. That's why I really favor Smith though, he adds a dimension to this offense it doesn't currently have.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: This is a good write up on the Smith weight debate.
That’s great he led in catches, he was a complimentary player...there’s a reason he didn’t enter the draft after his junior year...Jeudy and Ruggs were both getting drafted ahead of Smith and he didn’t like where he was being projected. If he was truly regarded as the best of the bunch after his junior year(which has never been suggested) he’d have come out and we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.
A complimentary player does not have the single greatest receiving year in NCAA history, sorry.
That's glossing over the fact he would have faced the same damn questions about his size last year. Another year of solidified production has put him about top 10. Last year he may have slipped past the first probably. Just because teams viewed him like that, doesn't mean it's correct. See - Aaron Donald.
It's worth noting too that Bruce, the better route runner and tactician, had 5000 more yards and 40 more TDs in his career while only playing 1 more season than Jackson. You sign up for Bruce at pick 11 in a heartbeat.
These Isaac Bruce references for DeVonta Smith kept bothering me, because I don't remember Bruce being that slight of build. I finally looked him up, Pro Football Reference has him at 6' 188 lbs. That struck me as what I remember. He's not a physical comp at all at ~20 lbs heavier on a 6' frame. Unless I've missed a lot of clarifications.
Bruce weighed in at 173 at the combine.
This is a great point.
I'm not sure why anyone believes that players' listed weights on PFR or NFL.com are accurate. For one thing, they NEVER change throughout a season (and often, throughout a career) - that alone should tell you that there really isn't a lot of attention paid to their accuracy. For another, they're for public consumption, not medical records.
DeVonta Smith may have weighed 166 this offseason, but he'll be listed at 175+ in his team's media guide as soon as the season starts even if he doesn't gain an ounce between now and then, and that'll be his listed weight for his entire career.
Isaac Bruce is a great comp because he's the first WR I remember
to really learn how to protect himself from the big hit. What you see all across the league now. These guys don't fight for extra yards like running backs anymore, because the juice isn't worth the squeeze when you weight sub 200 in the NFL. Get open, catch the ball, assess the situation, and get down or get yards.
Would be wonderful if he's there for the taking. I feel like these people never learn during draft season. We watched the games, we know what we all saw. Give me the guys who produced, even more so if they did it at big programs in big conferences.
Quote:
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Would be wonderful if he's there for the taking. I feel like these people never learn during draft season. We watched the games, we know what we all saw. Give me the guys who produced, even more so if they did it at big programs in big conferences.
Exactly. He's lean, but he plays tough. Saban has praised his toughness and blocking, as has X. McKinney. He's not going to be asked to take on a DE in the blocking game, and won't be asked to do more than get in the way. He will be fine in the NFL.
It also seems Alabama had those concerns as he was always in motion
I don't think they are going WR in Round 1.
I don't think they are going WR in Round 1.
I sincerely hope they don't share that mindset.
1) They should be taking BPA
2) Ross, Shepard and even Slayton are nowhere near good enough to preclude a team from taking the BPA.
Agreed.
Some posters write off Smith because of his weight and others dismiss Waddle because of an ankle injury, with absolutely no insight to his medicals.
I think Smith is going to dominate in the NFL and if he's gone when the Giants pick and Waddle is still there, I trust the Giants to do their homework to ensure that Waddle will return to his previous self (medically) if they're interested in taking him.
Highly doubt it. It's obvious his body type doesn't hold weight. It's not like he starved himself before his pro day.
I would say 180 - Tops - would be his ceiling.
Get this man a hamburger...
I don't think they are going WR in Round 1.
I understand your reasoning, but I think the WR group has a ton of question marks, health concerns, productivity concerns. If Smith is in their top tier remaining and a position of extreme need doesn't match the grade, then you need to take the WR.
Guy is great college WR, but way too small for the #11 investment.
Play the odds and pass on Smith at #11.
I don't think they are going WR in Round 1.
Shepard is an easy cap casualty as soon as 2022, Slayton has upside but how much, and Ross is a dart throw. WR is a big need.
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They already have Slayton and Sterling Sheppard.
I don't think they are going WR in Round 1.
I sincerely hope they don't share that mindset.
1) They should be taking BPA
2) Ross, Shepard and even Slayton are nowhere near good enough to preclude a team from taking the BPA.
True that you always need to look at the talent of the player not the need of position. However, Slayton, Shepard, Ross, Engram, Rudolph, Barkley, Golladay, Pettis are all on the roster. There is 1 football. While injuries do happen, add Smith would make this position group very good and also croweded. I also think the draft is deep at WR. Could get one on day 2 to add to the mix.
Smith can play WR at a high level, that's all I care about.
Not exactly, Jackson was a 4.35 guy, like Waddle. I think the best comparison I’ve heard is Isaac Bruce....who had a similar slight build and wasn’t considered a burner but whose game was built on separation, which served him quite well.
Good point about the motion at Alabama. Sarkasian was really good this year. He is a brilliant offensive mind imo.
I think Smith has a great future in the NFL but at 11 I want a Terrell Owens/Randy Moss type.
I don't think they are going WR in Round 1.
Is this the same John Ross that gets petrified while the ball is in flight as if he inadvertently stared into Medusa's eyes? Yeah. Bigtime player.
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So, he's basically Desean Jackson
Not exactly, Jackson was a 4.35 guy, like Waddle. I think the best comparison I’ve heard is Isaac Bruce....who had a similar slight build and wasn’t considered a burner but whose game was built on separation, which served him quite well.
Its worth noting too that Bruce, the better route runner and tactician, had 5000 more yards and 40 more TDs in his career while only playing 1 more season than Jackson. You sign up for Bruce at pick 11 in a heartbeat.
Good point about the motion at Alabama. Sarkasian was really good this year. He is a brilliant offensive mind imo.
I think Smith has a great future in the NFL but at 11 I want a Terrell Owens/Randy Moss type.
This is my biggest issue. Sy thinks he can easily put on some weight, and I look at his frame and thinks it's going to be tough. His frame is really tiny, it's just not that he's skinny. After watching him all year, and initially being off of him, I just don't think it's that big deal if it doesn't play heavier than 170. It's a different day in the NFL and these guys are much better about not taking hits. Smith already he proved he can do that on the college level.
KG and Smith make an awesome 1a and 1b type pairing.
He ran a 4.22 in a straight line. Which would be great if he had an accompanying WR skill set to go along with it. He's signed for 1 year. I doubt the addition of Ross has any impact whatsoever on where they go in the draft.
I don’t think Ross will preclude them from drafting Smith. Ross is on a one year flier. If he plays well he may stick as our #3 or #4 if they part with Shep after 2021.
166 in the off season is pretty damn slight. Not saying he can't be great or shouldn't be the pick but be honest in your overall assessment. 166 lbs at 6ft tall is great for
you and (especially at my age) but in the NFL it is cause for some scrutiny if not concern. he could see his weight down to the low 160's or even high 150's during the season. You don't gain weight during the season.
I don't think they are going WR in Round 1.
Im with you. I am all for BPA, but people here acting like smith is light years above and beyond someone like parsons. If its parsons and smith there at 11, i am taking parsons. sure smith is BPA by a small margin, but need meets value with parsons.
I am not saying always draft for need but to say dont consider it is crazy. We have a solid young WR core and this draft is DEEP at WR. we can take one later on but address a need with a serious impact player at 11.
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I think the Giants want to see what they've got there before they take a guy like Smith, personally.
He ran a 4.22 in a straight line. Which would be great if he had an accompanying WR skill set to go along with it. He's signed for 1 year. I doubt the addition of Ross has any impact whatsoever on where they go in the draft.
It probably doesn't other than the WR position on this roster is well accounted for now and allows them to look at other positions and be content with what they have for now.
Additionally, Ross is not the bum you are making him out to be:
The speedy wide receiver spent four seasons at the University of Washington (with a redshirt year in 2015 due to a knee injury), but truly exploded onto the scene in his redshirt junior year. Playing in 14 games in 2016, Ross had 81 receptions for 1,150 yards and a whopping 17 touchdowns, adding 102 rushing yards and an additional score to his final stats. Ross also served as the Huskies' kick returner, taking 17 kickoffs for 411 yards (24.2 avg.) and a touchdown. His 17 receiving touchdowns ranked third in FBS.
Ross was considered one of college football's most explosive playmakers, and his accolades showed it. He earned First-Team All-Pac-12 honors in 2016, as well as being named the AP Pac-12 Player of the Year.
This was all five years ago. There's nothing to say he still can't develop. Look at Leonard Williams. This was a low risk, high potential signing.
John Ross has done virtually nothing in multiple NFL seasons and should not factor into this decision even a little bit.
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I think the Giants want to see what they've got there before they take a guy like Smith, personally.
John Ross has done virtually nothing in multiple NFL seasons and should not factor into this decision even a little bit.
I didn't say John Ross himself will decide it. I'm saying Ross AND Golloday being signed, as well as already having Sheppard and Slayton means they have a full room.
I don't think they are going WR in Round 1.
I completely disagree with this post.
Slayton is really nothing special and Shepard will likely be a cap casualty next year and he is nothing special either if we are being honest.
If Smith/Waddle are sitting there and we don't, then you'll have your answer. I suspect if Smith is gone, we won't go WR which still gives you your answer but doesn't prove your point.
I think the Giants want Smith and a couple JAG's aren't going to stop them from doing so. This is a longterm investment to compliment Galloday and offset costs (we will cut Shepard after the season, for example).
Was he ever a top 10 talent? No....Cinci. made a mistake....but can he be a contributor....of course.
Slayton lasted to the 5th RD...for issues....that the Giants were able to address.
Shepard is still a concussion away....
Golladay makes everyone better....even Engram.....
Draft a WR, but do not force it.
1000% agree with this. He played in the SEC, arguably the conf that puts the most guys in the NFL. Was he hurt all through college?
Ross has played 4 NFL seasons and caught a grand total of 51 passes for 700+ yards and 10 TDs.
Again, in 4 NFL seasons.
Right now we have a fairly good idea what he is - not a very good NFL player.
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I think the Giants want to see what they've got there before they take a guy like Smith, personally.
Ross has played 4 NFL seasons and caught a grand total of 51 passes for 700+ yards and 10 TDs.
Again, in 4 NFL seasons.
Right now we have a fairly good idea what he is - not a very good NFL player.
John Ross has played 27 (started 20) total games in those 4 NFL seasons, due to injury. So the equivalent of LESS than 2 seasons.
I don't think they are going WR in Round 1.
Shepard is likely gone next year due to the cap, Ross sucks and this WR unit sucks if Golladay gets injured. They desperately need another good WR in this group. Hopefully his measurements drop Smith to 11.
I wouldn't spend resources to trade up for him. Just take Waddle at 11 then. Odds are Smith will be there @ 11.
What I said was, I believe they are content going into training camp with the WR room they have, after the signings of Golloday and Ross. They already have Slayton and Sheppard. That is enough to go into training camp with, IMO.
What I said was, I believe they are content going into training camp with the WR room they have, after the signings of Golloday and Ross. They already have Slayton and Sheppard. That is enough to go into training camp with, IMO.
I understand you 100%. I think if we don't land a WR at 11 they are ok heading into the season with what we have. But sooner or later we will be upgrading, that's unquestionable IMO.
Thanks for this. I hope he's there @ 11.
It also seems Alabama had those concerns as he was always in motion
Bama didn't put him in motion any more than their other WR's, but motion is a big way to help WR's beat press coverage. And WR's don't need to win hand to hand combat to beat press. Watch Devonte Adams, he uses his quick feet to win those battles.
Smith has faced some top NCAA CB's and not only excelled, but dominated. I think he'll be fine.
I don't think they are going WR in Round 1.
You may be right about round 1, but if John Ross, Darius Slayton, and even Shep (injury prone and going into the last year of his contract) stop the Giants from drafting a WR, they should all be fired.
We'll see, they may decide it isn't enough of a priority at 11, but we can say the same thing about CB, and I don't think any of the ER's are worth the 11th pick. If Smith is there, he'll get a long look.
Ross has played 4 NFL seasons and caught a grand total of 51 passes for 700+ yards and 10 TDs.
Again, in 4 NFL seasons.
Right now we have a fairly good idea what he is - not a very good NFL player.
John Ross has played 27 (started 20) total games in those 4 NFL seasons, due to injury. So the equivalent of LESS than 2 seasons.
The greatest ability in the NFL is availability. Ross is a flyer. Thus, the one year, cheap contract. If he hits - great. But I would not count on him at all at this point.
And, btw, I agree with you that we shouldn't take a WR at #11. We having bigger issues than WR. We can't consistently block the other team.
I would prefer OL or TE (if we managed to somehow acquire Pitts).
Our skills positions have been so abysmal for so long, we've forgotten what a high-octane offense looks like and are excited by John Ross and his 51 career receptions and 10TDs since 2017.
Even with KG, this offense needs a serious infusion of talent at the skill positions. One for sure. Two if you're planning on Shep's exit (which we should).
John Ross is a shot in the dark
Golladay is coming off an injury
Slayton disappointed in Year 2
Shepard hasn't shown he can stay healthy
Engram is an enigma
Barkley is coming off an injury
There's not one pass catcher on our roster that's a sure thing right now. We're one injury away from being the same awful offense we were last year
It is unlike the Giants to spend premium free agent money and then turn around and spend a premium draft pick on the same position. If they didn't sign Golloday I think they would be all in on Smith. But they did, so they are not.
I agree WR will be addressed down the line, but I think after spending big money in free agency on the position, they are done for this year.
John Ross is a shot in the dark
Golladay is coming off an injury
Slayton disappointed in Year 2
Shepard hasn't shown he can stay healthy
Engram is an enigma
Barkley is coming off an injury
There's not one pass catcher on our roster that's a sure thing right now. We're one injury away from being the same awful offense we were last year
It's a narrative now?
Totally agree, or even sub out 76 with a second rounder from next year.
Totally agree. After backing up the Brinks Truck for KG, we seemingly solved the need for a #1 WR. And I have never thought the other cast of WRs were that bad. I think they were victims of Jones and the OL...
It has also been pointed out that he played for an offensive juggernaut, but, while true, it is helpful to point out that he was the best player on that juggernaut!
It is my opinion that he is too good to pass up.
Devonta Smith Debate - ( New Window )
Golladay is coming off an injury....1000yd WR, twice...a true #1....lowering attention from everything else.
Slayton disappointed in Year 2...like everyone in Garett system that was a disappointment. He excelled his 1st year.
Shepard hasn't shown he can stay healthy...but when he does, has been one of the best slot receiver.
Engram is an enigma...if he can get his head together, as his physical tools excels.
Barkley is coming off an injury but all expectations is a full recovery....with an improve run blocking OL....points to a great year
I am jealous.. I used was happy when I was 5'11" 180 but at 201 - grrr... Gotta get down to 165/170.
They are in dire need of elite talent - especially on the offensive side of the ball.
It has also been pointed out that he played for an offensive juggernaut, but, while true, it is helpful to point out that he was the best player on that juggernaut!
Yeah except he wasn’t. In his first 3 seasons he was never considered the best of the quartet. You could say he was last year...but that was once Waddle went down to injury...Waddle out produced Smith in the games they played together in 2020 and was very much looking like the lead dog for Bama in 2020...Waddles injury was probably the best thing that could have happened to Smith as it made him the focal point of the offense, a role he was never cast in before.
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In comment 15228068 Britt in VA said:
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I think the Giants want to see what they've got there before they take a guy like Smith, personally.
John Ross has done virtually nothing in multiple NFL seasons and should not factor into this decision even a little bit.
I didn't say John Ross himself will decide it. I'm saying Ross AND Golloday being signed, as well as already having Sheppard and Slayton means they have a full room.
Plus Pettis, Sills, Mack... Obviously not future HOFers but low risk, high potential reward if any of these lottery tickets pan out. While I myself would definitely love Smith at #11, I agree with Britt. I can see the front office going a different way and maybe grab someone in the later rounds.
FWIW, I think Joe Judge would LOVE to have Smith in that WR room. Hard work, dedication, team-first attitude, max effort, and a win-at-all-costs mentality... I can see Judge being one of his biggest cheerleaders.
Shit, I’m 5’8 165 and skinny as fuck
Marvin Harrison 6′ 0″ 179 lbs
Isaac Bruce 6′ 0″ 188 lbs
Victor Cruz 6' 0" 204 lbs
So D Smith is about 7% lighter (13 lbs) than the very light Marvin Harrison, about 12% lighter (22 lbs) than Isaac Bruce and about 19% (28 lbs) lighter than Cruz.
I think D Smith height / weight ratio is a non-trivial (not necessarily a "show stopper") concern. The Giants need to think long and hard as to how durable / available do they think D Smith will be in his career before drafting him at #11 IMHO.
They are in dire need of elite talent - especially on the offensive side of the ball.
Agree. Just because they have quantity at certain positional units doesn't mean they have quality. WR is clearly one of those units.
Ross has also been injury prone (more so than KG), has a higher career drop rate than Engram (yikes!) and was only given a modest 1 yr contract (for good reason).
I think UConn put it well above, saying Ross is a "dart throw". Not someone who will preclude the Giants from drafting Smith.
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I think the Giants want to see what they've got there before they take a guy like Smith, personally.
Hey Britt, sorry I'm a little late to this thread. I understand you're not just talking about Ross, but with all due respect, I don't think Ross, Shep and Slayton combined will stop us from taking Smith, if he's there. I could be wrong. I might lean towards trading down (if they can), getting an Edge and taking WR in 2nd. Just think our WR corps can still use a nice upgrade.
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It has also been pointed out that he played for an offensive juggernaut, but, while true, it is helpful to point out that he was the best player on that juggernaut!
Yeah except he wasn’t. In his first 3 seasons he was never considered the best of the quartet. You could say he was last year...but that was once Waddle went down to injury...Waddle out produced Smith in the games they played together in 2020 and was very much looking like the lead dog for Bama in 2020...Waddles injury was probably the best thing that could have happened to Smith as it made him the focal point of the offense, a role he was never cast in before.
His junior year, on a team with 2 future 1st round WR picks, he led the team in catches, yards and TD’s. This year he had possibly the best receiving year in NCAA history. If you don’t think that makes him the best player on that offense, I don’t know what to tell you.
I don't think they are going WR in Round 1.
Right, because you somehow believe that Evan Engram is going to be the trade bait that lets us trade far enough up to be in position to draft Pitts.
🙄
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In comment 15228068 Britt in VA said:
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I think the Giants want to see what they've got there before they take a guy like Smith, personally.
Ross has played 4 NFL seasons and caught a grand total of 51 passes for 700+ yards and 10 TDs.
Again, in 4 NFL seasons.
Right now we have a fairly good idea what he is - not a very good NFL player.
John Ross has played 27 (started 20) total games in those 4 NFL seasons, due to injury. So the equivalent of LESS than 2 seasons.
Somehow you think you're strengthening your point here.
There is lots of film of him beating guys off the line from a standing start. He’s very hard to jam.
Absolutely. Keep pressuring the Defense to match up...
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In comment 15228271 Section331 said:
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It has also been pointed out that he played for an offensive juggernaut, but, while true, it is helpful to point out that he was the best player on that juggernaut!
Yeah except he wasn’t. In his first 3 seasons he was never considered the best of the quartet. You could say he was last year...but that was once Waddle went down to injury...Waddle out produced Smith in the games they played together in 2020 and was very much looking like the lead dog for Bama in 2020...Waddles injury was probably the best thing that could have happened to Smith as it made him the focal point of the offense, a role he was never cast in before.
His junior year, on a team with 2 future 1st round WR picks, he led the team in catches, yards and TD’s. This year he had possibly the best receiving year in NCAA history. If you don’t think that makes him the best player on that offense, I don’t know what to tell you.
That’s great he led in catches, he was a complimentary player...there’s a reason he didn’t enter the draft after his junior year...Jeudy and Ruggs were both getting drafted ahead of Smith and he didn’t like where he was being projected. If he was truly regarded as the best of the bunch after his junior year(which has never been suggested) he’d have come out and we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.
So the best use of his ability would seem to be to scheme him where he can play more in space, and where he doesn't need to deal with it as much as if he were in-line. Haven't watched much school ball, but it was mentioned Alabama realized this and used him accordingly.
WR in round 2 or 3. There are first round talent WRs that are going to be pushed to round 2 due to all the QBs and WRs that will go in round 1.
Whom do you double cover: Smith or Golladay?
By all means, draft Smith if available.
That’s great he led in catches, he was a complimentary player...there’s a reason he didn’t enter the draft after his junior year...Jeudy and Ruggs were both getting drafted ahead of Smith and he didn’t like where he was being projected. If he was truly regarded as the best of the bunch after his junior year(which has never been suggested) he’d have come out and we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.
A complimentary player does not have the single greatest receiving year in NCAA history, sorry.
Whom do you double cover: Smith or Golladay?
By all means, draft Smith if available.
No way Smith is as fast as Tyreek Hill. Waddle might be close though
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It's worth noting too that Bruce, the better route runner and tactician, had 5000 more yards and 40 more TDs in his career while only playing 1 more season than Jackson. You sign up for Bruce at pick 11 in a heartbeat.
These Isaac Bruce references for DeVonta Smith kept bothering me, because I don't remember Bruce being that slight of build. I finally looked him up, Pro Football Reference has him at 6' 188 lbs. That struck me as what I remember. He's not a physical comp at all at ~20 lbs heavier on a 6' frame. Unless I've missed a lot of clarifications.
Bruce weighed in at 173 at the combine.
Personally the obsession over Smith's weight is bizarre. He's not a TE and clearly he's not going to win any bench press contests.
He's shifty, quick, a great route runner and except for a hand injury doesn't seem to have any injury concerns. Literally no evidence exists from his college career that suggests he's an injury risk.
If he's there at #11 you run to the podium.
Personally the obsession over Smith's weight is bizarre. He's not a TE and clearly he's not going to win any bench press contests.
He's shifty, quick, a great route runner and except for a hand injury doesn't seem to have any injury concerns. Literally no evidence exists from his college career that suggests he's an injury risk.
If he's there at #11 you run to the podium.
Well tbf Jason Sehorn was 6 2. That's why I really favor Smith though, he adds a dimension to this offense it doesn't currently have.
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That’s great he led in catches, he was a complimentary player...there’s a reason he didn’t enter the draft after his junior year...Jeudy and Ruggs were both getting drafted ahead of Smith and he didn’t like where he was being projected. If he was truly regarded as the best of the bunch after his junior year(which has never been suggested) he’d have come out and we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.
A complimentary player does not have the single greatest receiving year in NCAA history, sorry.
That's glossing over the fact he would have faced the same damn questions about his size last year. Another year of solidified production has put him about top 10. Last year he may have slipped past the first probably. Just because teams viewed him like that, doesn't mean it's correct. See - Aaron Donald.
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In comment 15228070 Biteymax22 said:
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It's worth noting too that Bruce, the better route runner and tactician, had 5000 more yards and 40 more TDs in his career while only playing 1 more season than Jackson. You sign up for Bruce at pick 11 in a heartbeat.
These Isaac Bruce references for DeVonta Smith kept bothering me, because I don't remember Bruce being that slight of build. I finally looked him up, Pro Football Reference has him at 6' 188 lbs. That struck me as what I remember. He's not a physical comp at all at ~20 lbs heavier on a 6' frame. Unless I've missed a lot of clarifications.
Bruce weighed in at 173 at the combine.
This is a great point.
I'm not sure why anyone believes that players' listed weights on PFR or NFL.com are accurate. For one thing, they NEVER change throughout a season (and often, throughout a career) - that alone should tell you that there really isn't a lot of attention paid to their accuracy. For another, they're for public consumption, not medical records.
DeVonta Smith may have weighed 166 this offseason, but he'll be listed at 175+ in his team's media guide as soon as the season starts even if he doesn't gain an ounce between now and then, and that'll be his listed weight for his entire career.