were to fall to #11 than we should undoubtedly draft either and move Jones ASAP. Both are more gifted than Jones.
On the other hand, if MJones falls to #11, I doubt I pull the trigger. MJones is more talented than DJ, but he shouldn't be drafted in the first round. Which, ironically, should have been the case with DJ.
However, the way things are shaping up, I doubt we have to face this situation.
But I would bet that Mara and Gettleman are too stubborn and determined to make Jones work. So they wouldn't be brave enough to make this type of move.
he needs an impact player that will help push the Giants to at least a winning record if not the playoffs. No way possible he would draft a QB this year.
he needs an impact player that will help push the Giants to at least a winning record if not the playoffs. No way possible he would draft a QB this year.
right.. and a high upside QB is not an impact player in the NFL.
We couldn't draft Mahomes bc Eli needed a high impact player. We couldn't draft Allen bc Barkley was the best player in the draft. We couldn't draft Herbert bc Jones...
he needs an impact player that will help push the Giants to at least a winning record if not the playoffs. No way possible he would draft a QB this year.
right.. and a high upside QB is not an impact player in the NFL.
We couldn't draft Mahomes bc Eli needed a high impact player. We couldn't draft Allen bc Barkley was the best player in the draft. We couldn't draft Herbert bc Jones...
Yea lots of reasons not to draft great QBs.
I want Smith or Waddle, but if those guys are drafted ahead of us and a guy like Lance or Fields is sitting there at 11 you have to at least think about it.
were to fall to #11 than we should undoubtedly draft either and move Jones ASAP. Both are more gifted than Jones.
On the other hand, if MJones falls to #11, I doubt I pull the trigger. MJones is more talented than DJ, but he shouldn't be drafted in the first round. Which, ironically, should have been the case with DJ.
lol @ BW. Like you have any idea if these guys are or will be better than D. Jones. Aren't you one of the guys that also wanted Darnold/Rosen? I try to respect your opinions but the surety with which you post your OPINIONS grates on me for some reason. And before you go back at me, it's really no offense intended. I'm just stating the reason why we have so many debates about it.... lol.
he needs an impact player that will help push the Giants to at least a winning record if not the playoffs. No way possible he would draft a QB this year.
right.. and a high upside QB is not an impact player in the NFL.
We couldn't draft Mahomes bc Eli needed a high impact player. We couldn't draft Allen bc Barkley was the best player in the draft. We couldn't draft Herbert bc Jones...
Yea lots of reasons not to draft great QBs.
If a great QB is there like Lawrence then absolutely the Giants should go in that direction. No other QB in this draft has both (1) more upside than Jones and (2) a floor that is higher than what Jones has shown so far. Fields and Lance could end up like Haskins or J.P. Losman which would be downgrades from Jones.
he needs an impact player that will help push the Giants to at least a winning record if not the playoffs. No way possible he would draft a QB this year.
right.. and a high upside QB is not an impact player in the NFL.
We couldn't draft Mahomes bc Eli needed a high impact player. We couldn't draft Allen bc Barkley was the best player in the draft. We couldn't draft Herbert bc Jones...
Yea lots of reasons not to draft great QBs.
If a great QB is there like Lawrence then absolutely the Giants should go in that direction. No other QB in this draft has both (1) more upside than Jones and (2) a floor that is higher than what Jones has shown so far. Fields and Lance could end up like Haskins or J.P. Losman which would be downgrades from Jones.
Both Lance and Fields have higher upside than Daniel Jones. If you offered Jones for any of the first 10 picks of the draft, you would be rebuffed. The league views it that way as well.
he needs an impact player that will help push the Giants to at least a winning record if not the playoffs. No way possible he would draft a QB this year.
right.. and a high upside QB is not an impact player in the NFL.
We couldn't draft Mahomes bc Eli needed a high impact player. We couldn't draft Allen bc Barkley was the best player in the draft. We couldn't draft Herbert bc Jones...
Yea lots of reasons not to draft great QBs.
If a great QB is there like Lawrence then absolutely the Giants should go in that direction. No other QB in this draft has both (1) more upside than Jones and (2) a floor that is higher than what Jones has shown so far. Fields and Lance could end up like Haskins or J.P. Losman which would be downgrades from Jones.
Both Lance and Fields have higher upside than Daniel Jones. If you offered Jones for any of the first 10 picks of the draft, you would be rebuffed. The league views it that way as well.
I said both of those two things. Both have more upside, but if they end up like Losman and Haskins that would be WORSE for the Giants than continuting with Daniel Jones. Not only would you be getting a worse QB, you would be throwing away a chance at getting a player that helps your roster.
were to fall to #11 than we should undoubtedly draft either and move Jones ASAP. Both are more gifted than Jones.
On the other hand, if MJones falls to #11, I doubt I pull the trigger. MJones is more talented than DJ, but he shouldn't be drafted in the first round. Which, ironically, should have been the case with DJ.
lol @ BW. Like you have any idea if these guys are or will be better than D. Jones. Aren't you one of the guys that also wanted Darnold/Rosen? I try to respect your opinions but the surety with which you post your OPINIONS grates on me for some reason. And before you go back at me, it's really no offense intended. I'm just stating the reason why we have so many debates about it.... lol.
Well, I would have taken most positions over Barkley in 2018 at #2. But, yes, I would have taken Darnold or Allen over Barkley - easily. Rosen's injuries were troublesome, but I could have lived with that, just not as much.
With all due respect, I don't know how anyone can watch Fields or Lance and not see a more talented prospect than Jones. Both are have more arm talent, are more mobile, and are better athletes.
If you want to counter that Jones has done some decent work thus far in actual NFL games, than that's an angle to play. It's not something I would buy, but I would get the idea...
On this notion that Fields is somehow 100% clearly better than Daniel Jones, ESPECIALLY at being a passer of the football. And the single read offense he played in (to quote Chris Simms) would scare the hell out of me.
Lance? Maybe. I don't think there is nearly enough history on him to know one way or the other.
That said, if we drafted one of them, I would root for them... lol.
On this notion that Fields is somehow 100% clearly better than Daniel Jones, ESPECIALLY at being a passer of the football. And the single read offense he played in (to quote Chris Simms) would scare the hell out of me.
Lance? Maybe. I don't think there is nearly enough history on him to know one way or the other.
That said, if we drafted one of them, I would root for them... lol.
We had a lot of history on Jones and, frankly, I didn't find it that impressive. Lance definitely could have used another year of data, but going 28TDs/0INTs in 2019 and 1K rushing was pretty damn awesome. The other interesting thing with Lance is all of the time he spent under center. I believe he has the most experience there versus his peers in this draft.
OSU does not run a single read passing offense. Like Alabama, it just so happens that most of the time the first read is usually open due to superior talent. Day is highly regarded in NFL circles and, I believe, will be an NFL coach in the next five years. He is creative with his offenses and is a great play caller.
Read Sy's profile on Fields. He has a higher grade on Fields than Jones and he writes that Fields has a "tremendous arm" and is one of "the best athletes at the position to ever come out". I can assure you Sy was not that effusive with praise on Jones.
he needs an impact player that will help push the Giants to at least a winning record if not the playoffs. No way possible he would draft a QB this year.
right.. and a high upside QB is not an impact player in the NFL.
We couldn't draft Mahomes bc Eli needed a high impact player. We couldn't draft Allen bc Barkley was the best player in the draft. We couldn't draft Herbert bc Jones...
Yea lots of reasons not to draft great QBs.
If a great QB is there like Lawrence then absolutely the Giants should go in that direction. No other QB in this draft has both (1) more upside than Jones and (2) a floor that is higher than what Jones has shown so far. Fields and Lance could end up like Haskins or J.P. Losman which would be downgrades from Jones.
Both Lance and Fields have higher upside than Daniel Jones. If you offered Jones for any of the first 10 picks of the draft, you would be rebuffed. The league views it that way as well.
and, this is not the year to do it because of the shortage of picks. But, if we did trade back and acquire a couple more picks, I wouldn't mind taking a mid-round flyer on a Trask (or someone of that level (there I will defer to bw and his acumen for a reasonable comp). I asked this of Colin in his chat and he had a similar philosophy of taking a QB every draft (actually a bit different and more extreme because he said he wold take a QB in rounds 1-3 each and every draft).
he needs an impact player that will help push the Giants to at least a winning record if not the playoffs. No way possible he would draft a QB this year.
right.. and a high upside QB is not an impact player in the NFL.
We couldn't draft Mahomes bc Eli needed a high impact player. We couldn't draft Allen bc Barkley was the best player in the draft. We couldn't draft Herbert bc Jones...
Yea lots of reasons not to draft great QBs.
If a great QB is there like Lawrence then absolutely the Giants should go in that direction. No other QB in this draft has both (1) more upside than Jones and (2) a floor that is higher than what Jones has shown so far. Fields and Lance could end up like Haskins or J.P. Losman which would be downgrades from Jones.
Both Lance and Fields have higher upside than Daniel Jones. If you offered Jones for any of the first 10 picks of the draft, you would be rebuffed. The league views it that way as well.
You sir, are an idiot.
care to expound on your thoughtful and eloquent reply?
RE: I am more concerned with a Cedric Jones situation
SO, if someone like Fields or Lance is there (this is a keep Daniel Jones situation) which means that Smith/Waddle are definitely off the board, and they don't have a trade lined up, would it be worthwhile picking the QB with the idea that a viable trade will come up soon after?
"Imagine if the Giants draft a quarterback in the first round on Thursday. Which isn't going to happen.
It's very possible they will draft a developmental QB later in the draft, especially if they trade down. If only for cap reasons, I'm sure they'd like to have a backup QB who's on a rookie contract. Plus, if they develop a QB but decide to stick with Jones, they can flip the backup for picks.
IMO, there is no one in this draft I take outside of Lawrence
The rest of them, Wilson/Lance/Fields/Mac, all have issues and there is zero guaranty they will be as good as Jones. They all have potential, and they all have big issues, just like Jones did.
I mean, does this count if we take one with a day 3 pick?
SO, if someone like Fields or Lance is there (this is a keep Daniel Jones situation) which means that Smith/Waddle are definitely off the board, and they don't have a trade lined up, would it be worthwhile picking the QB with the idea that a viable trade will come up soon after?
Keep an eye on Brandon Peters from Illinois. It looks like they are going to give him a shot this year (kinda screwed him over last year). He is either going to tank or will be first rounder next year. Should be interesting. + Our former lb coach is his head coach
I think there is virtually no chance they take a QB in round 1
The only guy I would draft there is Lawrence, and if he is dropping it’s probably because he is in a jail cell.
I think there is still a lot oh holes on this team so there are really no positions I would be unhappy with. We, TE, OL, Edge, CB all seem wise to me, and I have to imagine the first pick will be one of those. I don’t know enough about the individual players to say which should go ahead of which.
A RB, P, K or LS would make me mad. I don’t expect that to happen.
RE: IMO, there is no one in this draft I take outside of Lawrence
The rest of them, Wilson/Lance/Fields/Mac, all have issues and there is zero guaranty they will be as good as Jones. They all have potential, and they all have big issues, just like Jones did.
You are bending the definition of good here.
Jones, at best, is average after two years. To have a strong conviction with that over clearly more talented prospects is not the best bet, IMV.
he needs an impact player that will help push the Giants to at least a winning record if not the playoffs. No way possible he would draft a QB this year.
DG is NOT fighting for his job. He is 70 y/o, has more money then he knows what to do with. The only thing he is fighting for is to get to the Super Bowl and build a winner. Like PGA Pros they have the money, they want the hardware or like older NBA players - money they have - titles is what they want.
RE: RE: IMO, there is no one in this draft I take outside of Lawrence
The rest of them, Wilson/Lance/Fields/Mac, all have issues and there is zero guaranty they will be as good as Jones. They all have potential, and they all have big issues, just like Jones did.
You are bending the definition of good here.
Jones, at best, is average after two years. To have a strong conviction with that over clearly more talented prospects is not the best bet, IMV.
In fact, after two years of poor performance, Jones is a lesser bet to emerge as elite than any of the top 4 in this draft. Each year that passes when he doesn't do it, decreases the likelihood he will emerge as an elite starter.
Do you have a plan about how you’re going to replace him? We still have plenty of holes and less than the average amount of picks to fill them, what are you willing to give up to draft a quarterback?
You don’t spend the amount of money that we did in free agency to go with an undetermined rookie QB while your high priced signings are wasting away in your rookie QBs grooming period.
Fields and Lance are both more talented than Jones and were better college players:
Jones:
Fields:
Lance:
Drafting either at #11 and trading Jones would improve the talent at QB and restart the rookie QB contract clock. Neither Fields nor Lance is a sure thing, but Jones is closer to the bust designation right now than either of them are and he's working with a lower skillset.
If either drops to #11 (I'm not a fan of trading up for anyone realistically available in this draft), picking him would be a smart move.
The reality is that this is an important prove it year
he needs an impact player that will help push the Giants to at least a winning record if not the playoffs. No way possible he would draft a QB this year.
right.. and a high upside QB is not an impact player in the NFL.
We couldn't draft Mahomes bc Eli needed a high impact player. We couldn't draft Allen bc Barkley was the best player in the draft. We couldn't draft Herbert bc Jones...
Yea lots of reasons not to draft great QBs.
If a great QB is there like Lawrence then absolutely the Giants should go in that direction. No other QB in this draft has both (1) more upside than Jones and (2) a floor that is higher than what Jones has shown so far. Fields and Lance could end up like Haskins or J.P. Losman which would be downgrades from Jones.
Both Lance and Fields have higher upside than Daniel Jones. If you offered Jones for any of the first 10 picks of the draft, you would be rebuffed. The league views it that way as well.
You sir, are an idiot.
uncalled for. I think Daniel should get year 3 but BW isn't wrong. I don't think you could get a first pick for DJ right now. Last year was too bad.
RE: The reality is that this is an important prove it year
Why can't we have 2 QBs in 2021? I'd love to have Jones AND Lance.
I guess I could live with it, but feels that Jones highest trade value would be before he loses a QB competition to be the starter in 2021. Which you expect he would otherwise not sure why you would be hot and heavy to draft Lance at #11.
But maybe Lance isn't ready to take reins at beginning of 2021 but soon thereafter or end of season, whatever.
Its 6 to 5 and pick 'em...
RE: The reality is that this is an important prove it year
he is no more a bust (yet) than he is a success (yet). Continuous braying one way or the other won't make it so.
If this is a "prove it year" then he damn sure is teetering on bust status. It's implied in the very term: prove you aren't a bust.
If he hasn't proven it yet and the opportunity is there to improve the talent at the position, improve the talent. Then let the more talented guy go prove it.
There is no reason to feel any attachment to Jones.
RE: RE: The reality is that this is an important prove it year
Fields and Lance are both more talented than Jones and were better college players:
Jones:
Fields:
Lance:
Drafting either at #11 and trading Jones would improve the talent at QB and restart the rookie QB contract clock. Neither Fields nor Lance is a sure thing, but Jones is closer to the bust designation right now than either of them are and he's working with a lower skillset.
If either drops to #11 (I'm not a fan of trading up for anyone realistically available in this draft), picking him would be a smart move.
Terps...FFS. They are better prospects but The teams that both of those guys played for VASTLY outclassed most of their opponents in talent. That context matters a lot. How come you didn't post Haskins stats? They were really fucking good.
You don’t spend the amount of money that we did in free agency to go with an undetermined rookie QB while your high priced signings are wasting away in your rookie QBs grooming period.
Why? The 9ers are likely going to do that with Mac Jones. What's the difference?
he is no more a bust (yet) than he is a success (yet). Continuous braying one way or the other won't make it so.
If this is a "prove it year" then he damn sure is teetering on bust status. It's implied in the very term: prove you aren't a bust.
If he hasn't proven it yet and the opportunity is there to improve the talent at the position, improve the talent. Then let the more talented guy go prove it.
There is no reason to feel any attachment to Jones.
I have zero attachment to Jones. I just don't know what we have yet. It is possible he is the guy we hope. I want to see this year play out. One thing is certain, there will be other QB prospects.
putting up college stats to show which players are definitively better?? Why not just pick the top statistical leaders and build a winning team, then?
By the way - put up Haskins stats vs Fields. and then tell us that one of them is definitively better than the other.
They shouldn't by summarily dismissed either. So they should be considered as some form of comparison. How much weight you give is where the subjectivity comes in.
RE: The reality is that this is an important prove it year
he is no more a bust (yet) than he is a success (yet). Continuous braying one way or the other won't make it so.
Well, I think there are more signs pointing to the bust column, but that's probably a fair way to put it.
But if you don't have that answer, and there is an opportunity to go with a more talented prospect from this class, what is the point in waiting? Hoping that the coin comes up heads?
You could have concluded your post with "They are better prospects."
If they are better prospects, then drafting one makes sense because by your own admission Jones has yet to prove he's the guy.
So why not go with the better prospect?
Better prospect doesn't necessarily mean better player. Exhibit A: Haskins' conduct.
Look, why are you so intent on kicking Jones to the curb after two years on the job? Would you have kicked quarterbacks like Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw, Phil Simms, and Eli to the curb because they took more than 2 years to gel?
Even if we still draft a quarterback this year, our offensive line still isn't great at pass blocking and our receiving corps needs at least one more playmaker in case our current ones go down. Why not focus on acquiring another target for Jones or an offensive lineman to protect him instead of waste resources showing we have no confidence that he can get the job done?
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
Honestly man - where are you going with that?? In 2018, you probably could have asked what is better about tannehill than Darnold or Rosen. I don't know how else to tell you this - but Jones has two years of experience under his belt. Fields and Lance have none. Both could end up as complete busts like Haskins or Rosen.
And then guess what? Their college stats mean absolutely fucking nothing.
is summarily dismissing them? You guys are the ones saying the college stats definitively make them better prospects.
Hell Go Terps said that above - period.
I didn't say that. I said they are worth using as some point of comparison. We've been down this path before, but I think completion % and YPA are decent metrics to start.
Regardless, as I try to limit my subjectivity in this, here is what Sy said about Fields:
Quote:
He is clearly talented enough on multiple levels to be a big-time pro. He has a tremendous arm, he is one of the best athletes at the position to ever come out, and he plays with a slow heartbeat that exudes confidence.
And he gave him a higher grade than Jones. Do you recall Sy being this effusive with praise on Jones? Based on that, who would you rather have going forward? Jones or Fields if he happened to drop?
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
We know what he has shown versus NFL defenses and the coaching staff has a year of experience knowing what he can and can't do so we can tailor an O in 2021 to his strengths with an offseason to implement it. If Fields and Lance only end up being like Haskins and J.P. Losman we are in a WORSE situation because we have a worse QB and have squandered draft capital that could have been used to select someone that would have made the Giants better. I have seen nothing from Jones so far that he can be a better QB than the sum of the parts around him, which concerns me, but the only QB who appears to be that in this draft is Trevor Lawrence. Unless he gets caught being photographed with a gas mask he is not falling to 11.
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
I will want to shoot myself in the head for responding but you cannot discount development time. Pick Fields or Lance and next year, we will hear you again carping that we should spend our top pick on a QB.
Since we have not determined what Jones is yet, we can't just dismiss 2 years of pro experience plus whatever familiarity with old and improvement with new offensive players.
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
We know what he has shown versus NFL defenses and the coaching staff has a year of experience knowing what he can and can't do so we can tailor an O in 2021 to his strengths with an offseason to implement it. If Fields and Lance only end up being like Haskins and J.P. Losman we are in a WORSE situation because we have a worse QB and have squandered draft capital that could have been used to select someone that would have made the Giants better. I have seen nothing from Jones so far that he can be a better QB than the sum of the parts around him, which concerns me, but the only QB who appears to be that in this draft is Trevor Lawrence. Unless he gets caught being photographed with a gas mask he is not falling to 11.
Jones 11/10 TD/INT. nuff said. it can scarcely get worse than that.
You could have concluded your post with "They are better prospects."
If they are better prospects, then drafting one makes sense because by your own admission Jones has yet to prove he's the guy.
So why not go with the better prospect?
Better prospect doesn't necessarily mean better player. Exhibit A: Haskins' conduct.
Just to be clear on this Haskins point. I did NOT like Haskins by the '19 draft. I was very down on him. I believe Terps was, too. But I don't recall. So let's just drop the Haskins stuff once and for all...
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
I will want to shoot myself in the head for responding but you cannot discount development time. Pick Fields or Lance and next year, we will hear you again carping that we should spend our top pick on a QB.
Since we have not determined what Jones is yet, we can't just dismiss 2 years of pro experience plus whatever familiarity with old and improvement with new offensive players.
we have determined Jones is not elite, and therefore, not good enough to not consider other options.
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
We know what he has shown versus NFL defenses and the coaching staff has a year of experience knowing what he can and can't do so we can tailor an O in 2021 to his strengths with an offseason to implement it. If Fields and Lance only end up being like Haskins and J.P. Losman we are in a WORSE situation because we have a worse QB and have squandered draft capital that could have been used to select someone that would have made the Giants better. I have seen nothing from Jones so far that he can be a better QB than the sum of the parts around him, which concerns me, but the only QB who appears to be that in this draft is Trevor Lawrence. Unless he gets caught being photographed with a gas mask he is not falling to 11.
Jones 11/10 TD/INT. nuff said. it can scarcely get worse than that.
Jones 24/12 TD/INT. Maybe the problem is Garrett not Jones and putting Kitchens more involved in offense design and gameplanning will improve Jones.
is summarily dismissing them? You guys are the ones saying the college stats definitively make them better prospects.
Hell Go Terps said that above - period.
I didn't say that. I said they are worth using as some point of comparison. We've been down this path before, but I think completion % and YPA are decent metrics to start.
Regardless, as I try to limit my subjectivity in this, here is what Sy said about Fields:
Quote:
He is clearly talented enough on multiple levels to be a big-time pro. He has a tremendous arm, he is one of the best athletes at the position to ever come out, and he plays with a slow heartbeat that exudes confidence.
And he gave him a higher grade than Jones. Do you recall Sy being this effusive with praise on Jones? Based on that, who would you rather have going forward? Jones or Fields if he happened to drop?
BUt if you use Sy as a reference, then you go for the third and deciding year. Ala,
Quote:
Jones has had several moments that make me think he can be the guy. He also has had several moments that make me think NYG will be moving on at the end of his rookie contract. The inconsistency has been maddening, but he deserves some slack here because the supporting cast has been among the worst in football.
He's actually CLOSER to that point than either Fields or Lance are...he's in a prove it year.
And we don't know shit about Judge on a couple fronts:
1. How he much he likes Jones (including how much he'd like him vs. Fields or Lance)
2. How much say he has on this. QB is an owner-level decision. If Judge says Fields and Gettleman says Jones, that doesn't mean we're just going to draft Fields. I actually would really doubt it.
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
I will want to shoot myself in the head for responding but you cannot discount development time. Pick Fields or Lance and next year, we will hear you again carping that we should spend our top pick on a QB.
Since we have not determined what Jones is yet, we can't just dismiss 2 years of pro experience plus whatever familiarity with old and improvement with new offensive players.
we have determined Jones is not elite, and therefore, not good enough to not consider other options.
Considering other options is not the same as DRAFTING other option and failing to draft a QB is not an indictment against DG especially when you consider guys like Devonta Smith, Kwity Paye, etc. received higher grades from Sy than the QB's being mentioned.
Recall some heated debate back at beginning of 2019
season and whether to start Jones over Eli. And someone saying getting Jones experience has nothing to do with his ultimate development or something along those lines.
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
We know what he has shown versus NFL defenses and the coaching staff has a year of experience knowing what he can and can't do so we can tailor an O in 2021 to his strengths with an offseason to implement it. If Fields and Lance only end up being like Haskins and J.P. Losman we are in a WORSE situation because we have a worse QB and have squandered draft capital that could have been used to select someone that would have made the Giants better. I have seen nothing from Jones so far that he can be a better QB than the sum of the parts around him, which concerns me, but the only QB who appears to be that in this draft is Trevor Lawrence. Unless he gets caught being photographed with a gas mask he is not falling to 11.
Jones 11/10 TD/INT. nuff said. it can scarcely get worse than that.
Jones 24/12 TD/INT. Maybe the problem is Garrett not Jones and putting Kitchens more involved in offense design and gameplanning will improve Jones.
put it this way.. Jimmy G is less than 2 years removed from a Super Bowl and the 49ers are moving on. Why is it ok to move on from Jimmy G but the Giants should at least consider high upside QBs?
He's actually CLOSER to that point than either Fields or Lance are...he's in a prove it year.
And we don't know shit about Judge on a couple fronts:
1. How he much he likes Jones (including how much he'd like him vs. Fields or Lance)
2. How much say he has on this. QB is an owner-level decision. If Judge says Fields and Gettleman says Jones, that doesn't mean we're just going to draft Fields. I actually would really doubt it.
You keep repeating the "we don't know how much he likes Jones/what he *really* feels about Jones" falsehood so often that one must think you are trying to will it into existence despite all and abundant, evidence to the contrary.
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
I will want to shoot myself in the head for responding but you cannot discount development time. Pick Fields or Lance and next year, we will hear you again carping that we should spend our top pick on a QB.
Since we have not determined what Jones is yet, we can't just dismiss 2 years of pro experience plus whatever familiarity with old and improvement with new offensive players.
we have determined Jones is not elite, and therefore, not good enough to not consider other options.
Considering other options is not the same as DRAFTING other option and failing to draft a QB is not an indictment against DG especially when you consider guys like Devonta Smith, Kwity Paye, etc. received higher grades from Sy than the QB's being mentioned.
If I am choosing between Lance, Smith, Paye and Parsons, I'm drafting Lance.
He's actually CLOSER to that point than either Fields or Lance are...he's in a prove it year.
And we don't know shit about Judge on a couple fronts:
1. How he much he likes Jones (including how much he'd like him vs. Fields or Lance)
2. How much say he has on this. QB is an owner-level decision. If Judge says Fields and Gettleman says Jones, that doesn't mean we're just going to draft Fields. I actually would really doubt it.
You keep repeating the "we don't know how much he likes Jones/what he *really* feels about Jones" falsehood so often that one must think you are trying to will it into existence despite all and abundant, evidence to the contrary.
We don't know what he *thinks*. We only know things he says.
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
We know what he has shown versus NFL defenses and the coaching staff has a year of experience knowing what he can and can't do so we can tailor an O in 2021 to his strengths with an offseason to implement it. If Fields and Lance only end up being like Haskins and J.P. Losman we are in a WORSE situation because we have a worse QB and have squandered draft capital that could have been used to select someone that would have made the Giants better. I have seen nothing from Jones so far that he can be a better QB than the sum of the parts around him, which concerns me, but the only QB who appears to be that in this draft is Trevor Lawrence. Unless he gets caught being photographed with a gas mask he is not falling to 11.
Jones 11/10 TD/INT. nuff said. it can scarcely get worse than that.
Jones 24/12 TD/INT. Maybe the problem is Garrett not Jones and putting Kitchens more involved in offense design and gameplanning will improve Jones.
put it this way.. Jimmy G is less than 2 years removed from a Super Bowl and the 49ers are moving on. Why is it ok to move on from Jimmy G but the Giants should at least consider high upside QBs?
It's possible, if not probable, that the Giants coaches consider Jones a high upside QB while SF feels that Jimmy G has been around long enough to have plateaued.
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
Would you trust a rookie quarterback with our offensive line, particularly at guard?
Jones has had several moments that make me think he can be the guy. He also has had several moments that make me think NYG will be moving on at the end of his rookie contract. The inconsistency has been maddening, but he deserves some slack here because the supporting cast has been among the worst in football.
But you'd have to ask Sy the "what if" scenario - what if Fields is there at #11?
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
We know what he has shown versus NFL defenses and the coaching staff has a year of experience knowing what he can and can't do so we can tailor an O in 2021 to his strengths with an offseason to implement it. If Fields and Lance only end up being like Haskins and J.P. Losman we are in a WORSE situation because we have a worse QB and have squandered draft capital that could have been used to select someone that would have made the Giants better. I have seen nothing from Jones so far that he can be a better QB than the sum of the parts around him, which concerns me, but the only QB who appears to be that in this draft is Trevor Lawrence. Unless he gets caught being photographed with a gas mask he is not falling to 11.
Jones 11/10 TD/INT. nuff said. it can scarcely get worse than that.
Jones 24/12 TD/INT. Maybe the problem is Garrett not Jones and putting Kitchens more involved in offense design and gameplanning will improve Jones.
put it this way.. Jimmy G is less than 2 years removed from a Super Bowl and the 49ers are moving on. Why is it ok to move on from Jimmy G but the Giants should at least consider high upside QBs?
Any team would be stupid not to evaluate the QB's because eventually one might become available, but drafting one is a different story. Unless Lawrence falls to 11 there is no QB that will be the highest rated player at that pick.
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
I will want to shoot myself in the head for responding but you cannot discount development time. Pick Fields or Lance and next year, we will hear you again carping that we should spend our top pick on a QB.
Since we have not determined what Jones is yet, we can't just dismiss 2 years of pro experience plus whatever familiarity with old and improvement with new offensive players.
we have determined Jones is not elite, and therefore, not good enough to not consider other options.
Considering other options is not the same as DRAFTING other option and failing to draft a QB is not an indictment against DG especially when you consider guys like Devonta Smith, Kwity Paye, etc. received higher grades from Sy than the QB's being mentioned.
If I am choosing between Lance, Smith, Paye and Parsons, I'm drafting Lance.
He's actually CLOSER to that point than either Fields or Lance are...he's in a prove it year.
And we don't know shit about Judge on a couple fronts:
1. How he much he likes Jones (including how much he'd like him vs. Fields or Lance)
2. How much say he has on this. QB is an owner-level decision. If Judge says Fields and Gettleman says Jones, that doesn't mean we're just going to draft Fields. I actually would really doubt it.
You keep repeating the "we don't know how much he likes Jones/what he *really* feels about Jones" falsehood so often that one must think you are trying to will it into existence despite all and abundant, evidence to the contrary.
We don't know what he *thinks*. We only know things he says.
Oh Geezus. The point has been proven over and over again., He has gone completely out of his way to state his feelings multiple times. You only don't believe it because it doesn't support what you want to believe. If you don't believe what he says here, then it is virtually impossible to believe what he says about anything, anytime, anywhere.
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
We know what he has shown versus NFL defenses and the coaching staff has a year of experience knowing what he can and can't do so we can tailor an O in 2021 to his strengths with an offseason to implement it. If Fields and Lance only end up being like Haskins and J.P. Losman we are in a WORSE situation because we have a worse QB and have squandered draft capital that could have been used to select someone that would have made the Giants better. I have seen nothing from Jones so far that he can be a better QB than the sum of the parts around him, which concerns me, but the only QB who appears to be that in this draft is Trevor Lawrence. Unless he gets caught being photographed with a gas mask he is not falling to 11.
Jones 11/10 TD/INT. nuff said. it can scarcely get worse than that.
Jones 24/12 TD/INT. Maybe the problem is Garrett not Jones and putting Kitchens more involved in offense design and gameplanning will improve Jones.
put it this way.. Jimmy G is less than 2 years removed from a Super Bowl and the 49ers are moving on. Why is it ok to move on from Jimmy G but the Giants should at least consider high upside QBs?
It's possible, if not probable, that the Giants coaches consider Jones a high upside QB while SF feels that Jimmy G has been around long enough to have plateaued.
He's not. he has limited talent. The nightmare scenario is that he is good enough to sneak us into the playoffs but never great enough to win Super Bowls. And we wait years to figure it out while other teams aggressively pursue elite options, like the 9'ers.
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
We know what he has shown versus NFL defenses and the coaching staff has a year of experience knowing what he can and can't do so we can tailor an O in 2021 to his strengths with an offseason to implement it. If Fields and Lance only end up being like Haskins and J.P. Losman we are in a WORSE situation because we have a worse QB and have squandered draft capital that could have been used to select someone that would have made the Giants better. I have seen nothing from Jones so far that he can be a better QB than the sum of the parts around him, which concerns me, but the only QB who appears to be that in this draft is Trevor Lawrence. Unless he gets caught being photographed with a gas mask he is not falling to 11.
Jones 11/10 TD/INT. nuff said. it can scarcely get worse than that.
Jones 24/12 TD/INT. Maybe the problem is Garrett not Jones and putting Kitchens more involved in offense design and gameplanning will improve Jones.
put it this way.. Jimmy G is less than 2 years removed from a Super Bowl and the 49ers are moving on. Why is it ok to move on from Jimmy G but the Giants should at least consider high upside QBs?
It's possible, if not probable, that the Giants coaches consider Jones a high upside QB while SF feels that Jimmy G has been around long enough to have plateaued.
He's not. he has limited talent. The nightmare scenario is that he is good enough to sneak us into the playoffs but never great enough to win Super Bowls. And we wait years to figure it out while other teams aggressively pursue elite options, like the 9'ers.
The fucking give Judge a call and let him know that he's wrong before Thursday night, for God's sake.
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
Would you trust a rookie quarterback with our offensive line, particularly at guard?
No less than I would trust Jones, whose pocket presence is atrocious.
We are acting like we have an established, trusted veteran at QB. We do not. We have a young guy with a limited ceiling we all hope finally gets his shit together.
I get the desire to have a "plan b". In theory, I like it. But to draft another QB now, moves us at least a step back (missing out on another player) and if we do start to seriously consider, if not actually play, another QB, that moves us several more steps backward. Now maybe that yet opens up an alternate way forward which ultimately is better, sure I could see that. But to me, I think we are on the right track already so I wouldn't be too thrilled with losing out on a needed player, moving backward in terms of being competitive now, screwing with DJ in case the alternative didn't work out... not interested at this time.
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
We know what he has shown versus NFL defenses and the coaching staff has a year of experience knowing what he can and can't do so we can tailor an O in 2021 to his strengths with an offseason to implement it. If Fields and Lance only end up being like Haskins and J.P. Losman we are in a WORSE situation because we have a worse QB and have squandered draft capital that could have been used to select someone that would have made the Giants better. I have seen nothing from Jones so far that he can be a better QB than the sum of the parts around him, which concerns me, but the only QB who appears to be that in this draft is Trevor Lawrence. Unless he gets caught being photographed with a gas mask he is not falling to 11.
Jones 11/10 TD/INT. nuff said. it can scarcely get worse than that.
Jones 24/12 TD/INT. Maybe the problem is Garrett not Jones and putting Kitchens more involved in offense design and gameplanning will improve Jones.
put it this way.. Jimmy G is less than 2 years removed from a Super Bowl and the 49ers are moving on. Why is it ok to move on from Jimmy G but the Giants should at least consider high upside QBs?
It's possible, if not probable, that the Giants coaches consider Jones a high upside QB while SF feels that Jimmy G has been around long enough to have plateaued.
He's not. he has limited talent. The nightmare scenario is that he is good enough to sneak us into the playoffs but never great enough to win Super Bowls. And we wait years to figure it out while other teams aggressively pursue elite options, like the 9'ers.
Actually the worst case scenarios would be either (1) paying him like he is an elite QB or (2) failing to draft someone who can really help this team when we have the opportunity to do so because we are obssessing over one position rather than going BPA and then the player we draft ends up worse than the devil we know
why do we continually hear that Jones has limited upside and limited ability from certain posters?
What qualifications do you have to make those statements and continue to say them on every thread, yet tell us that other QB's have much more potential?
You continue to prove time and again that the book is closed on Jones and it sounds more and more idiotic because it is forced into every discussion.
Even already had a 11TD/!0INT reference. That's fresh material.
it would put a lie to all the supporting statements Judge has made about DJ. That would show me that we have a disingenuous coach which would seriously re-frame how I see the team and the staff. Would not be happy about that.
he needs an impact player that will help push the Giants to at least a winning record if not the playoffs. No way possible he would draft a QB this year.
right.. and a high upside QB is not an impact player in the NFL.
We couldn't draft Mahomes bc Eli needed a high impact player. We couldn't draft Allen bc Barkley was the best player in the draft. We couldn't draft Herbert bc Jones...
Yea lots of reasons not to draft great QBs.
If a great QB is there like Lawrence then absolutely the Giants should go in that direction. No other QB in this draft has both (1) more upside than Jones and (2) a floor that is higher than what Jones has shown so far. Fields and Lance could end up like Haskins or J.P. Losman which would be downgrades from Jones.
Both Lance and Fields have higher upside than Daniel Jones. If you offered Jones for any of the first 10 picks of the draft, you would be rebuffed. The league views it that way as well.
You sir, are an idiot.
Wow, great rebuttal. Did you work all day on that? How many rookie QB's have an impact in their first season?
putting up college stats to show which players are definitively better?? Why not just pick the top statistical leaders and build a winning team, then?
By the way - put up Haskins stats vs Fields. and then tell us that one of them is definitively better than the other.
Asinine. Let's just draft Houston, Hawaii, and Texas Tech QBs every year!
We should draft a guy like Ron Dayne.....
Yeah, that pick really taught me a lesson. I was telling my kids the day after... we needed a runner and by god we picked the biggest baddest running back from college, a guy who put up more yards than any college running back in history...
How did that work out?
College stats are nice, but only part of the picture. You have to identify the guy who can excel in the league, and on your specific team. That's not quite the same thing as pure college production, is it.
This is from Sy’s final thoughts on the 2019 QB draft class:
Quote:
As for this class, none of these guys should be in play at #6 in my opinion. I think Haskins and Jones stand out as the two guys I could see evolving into “franchise QBs” in the same sentence as someone like Mitch Trubisky, but we aren’t talking elite level guys. It really depends on what you want out of drafting a first round QB. DO you want someone who is simply “good enough” or do you want a guy who is going to take over games and be THE guy for a decade-plus? With where the Giants are now, I personally prefer to use the early picks on building a better team around Eli Manning and come back to the QB situation again in a year because I think you will always be able to find QB prospects with this kind of upside that Jones, Haskins, Lock…etc.
Based on two years of Daniel Jones, I think the comments above in bold are especially true. Jones should not preclude the Giants from drafting a QB with higher upside such as Fields or Lance. The issue for me is, the Giants are picking #11, and it’s unlikely any of those guys will be in play. If the Giants were drafting top 5, that would be a different story.
I agree strongly with Sy’s last line, so if the Giants had an opportunity to draft a QB with significant upside, they should do it. The opportunity isn’t there though likely. I’m not mortgaging a future 1st for Fields or Lance personally.
Yeah, that ain't enough. Public statements about Jones
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
Would you trust a rookie quarterback with our offensive line, particularly at guard?
No less than I would trust Jones, whose pocket presence is atrocious.
We are acting like we have an established, trusted veteran at QB. We do not. We have a young guy with a limited ceiling we all hope finally gets his shit together.
Did I say we have an established, trusted veteran at QB? Point is, we're still building a team. We have a smaller amount of picks and quite a few holes on the roster, how many of those are you willing to squander to trade up for a quarterback if they don't drop? Would you have quarterbacks like Phil Simms or Eli Manning kicked to the curb because they didn't reach their peak in two years? Simms in particular didn't have good stats in college; he threw more interceptions than touchdowns and never even played in a bowl game, then he took five or six years before he really developed. Eli was still inconsistent entering year 4 and there was plenty of talk of cutting him until the end of the year. If he wasn't to your liking in 2006 or 2007, who would you have tried to draft that year? For 2006: Vince Young? Matt Leinart? For 2007: Jamarcus Russell? Brady Quinn?
that's the thing. Stats in college are just a barometer that a player can get the job done in a certain situation and doesn't have much predictive qualities in the NFL. Every guys has something good about them that goes to the NFL. Measureables, stats, etc. and the majority of players still fail for one reason or another.
How many times have the giants taken LB's with great college production or guys who amassed stats and they can't come close to that in the NFL. It's the same with every team.
But yet, we have people on this thread throwing college stats around as if it cements some prospects as being better.
RE: Yeah, that ain't enough. Public statements about Jones
They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
Would you trust a rookie quarterback with our offensive line, particularly at guard?
No less than I would trust Jones, whose pocket presence is atrocious.
We are acting like we have an established, trusted veteran at QB. We do not. We have a young guy with a limited ceiling we all hope finally gets his shit together.
Angel - where did you really think that question was going?
This is from Sy’s final thoughts on the 2019 QB draft class:
Quote:
As for this class, none of these guys should be in play at #6 in my opinion. I think Haskins and Jones stand out as the two guys I could see evolving into “franchise QBs” in the same sentence as someone like Mitch Trubisky, but we aren’t talking elite level guys. It really depends on what you want out of drafting a first round QB. DO you want someone who is simply “good enough” or do you want a guy who is going to take over games and be THE guy for a decade-plus? With where the Giants are now, I personally prefer to use the early picks on building a better team around Eli Manning and come back to the QB situation again in a year because I think you will always be able to find QB prospects with this kind of upside that Jones, Haskins, Lock…etc.
Based on two years of Daniel Jones, I think the comments above in bold are especially true. Jones should not preclude the Giants from drafting a QB with higher upside such as Fields or Lance. The issue for me is, the Giants are picking #11, and it’s unlikely any of those guys will be in play. If the Giants were drafting top 5, that would be a different story.
I agree strongly with Sy’s last line, so if the Giants had an opportunity to draft a QB with significant upside, they should do it. The opportunity isn’t there though likely. I’m not mortgaging a future 1st for Fields or Lance personally.
Even if Fields or Lance fall to 11 I would still pass. Upside is one thing, but each have concerns that could significantly prevent them from ever reaching their upside. The two surest bet QB's in this draft are Lawrence and Mac Jones. The former definitely won't be available and the latter is a good QB, but more like Kirk Cousins upside, and that is the type that can be easily overpaid and put you in "QB Hell."
RE: RE: RE: Yeah, that ain't enough. Public statements about Jones
that his fate is not tied to Jones. So he has agreed to play out the Jones scenario, and he will get to choose the next guy.
Are we playing the game of making wild asses assumptions now??
yes i am making a guess. I admit it. If you think Judge is all-in on Jones, you are making a guess. The difference is, I admit I am guessing (I literally stated it) and you don't. Stop being a fucking coward.
why do we continually hear that Jones has limited upside and limited ability from certain posters?
What qualifications do you have to make those statements and continue to say them on every thread, yet tell us that other QB's have much more potential?
You continue to prove time and again that the book is closed on Jones and it sounds more and more idiotic because it is forced into every discussion.
Even already had a 11TD/!0INT reference. That's fresh material.
This is what drives me nuts. Like it's set in stone, after that ridiculous situation in his second year. But that's an "excuse". Newsflash, Mahomes and Rogers are maybe throwing 25 TDs with what we were trotting out there. Doubt they would have done too much better as second year player in a new offense. I've seen a ton of growth from DJ last year, including what they were trying to accomplish with him very early. Of course that looks ugly, whenever you need to change how you process things and tweak stuff, it gets uglier before it gets better and you need reps.
Is it a guarantee he puts it together? No, of course not, but I think it's a helluva lot closer than to what some people here are giving him. And they are speaking in absolutes, so I imagine the goalposts will move to a 3rd year QB in maybe an above average offense as it stands now, didn't finish top 5 statistically across the board. On a team where running the ball is clearly going to be the focus. Where this offense finishes in things like points per drive is more indicative of what DJ is, than his stats will be. With how our offensive line is constructed, we are going to be run first in the redzone. And we should be with a back like Saquon and a dual threat in DJ. PA to Rudolph and let KG try to win some one v one battles occasionaly.
that his fate is not tied to Jones. So he has agreed to play out the Jones scenario, and he will get to choose the next guy.
You know what happens when you assume...
Far more likely is that Judge does like Jones but he his not fond of Jason Garrett who was foisted on him (Judge's choice would have been Freddie Kitchens, but Nick Saban probably convinced Judge that Garrett was passable enough not to risk Giants job) as his public comments of Garrett have been lukewarm at best and he didn't waste time firing Marc Colombo. On the other hand, Judge has offered unsolicited praise of Daniel Jones.
RE: RE: RE: my guess is Judge has received assurance
that his fate is not tied to Jones. So he has agreed to play out the Jones scenario, and he will get to choose the next guy.
Are we playing the game of making wild asses assumptions now??
yes i am making a guess. I admit it. If you think Judge is all-in on Jones, you are making a guess. The difference is, I admit I am guessing (I literally stated it) and you don't. Stop being a fucking coward.
A fucking coward?? Fuck off.
My take is that Judge wants to win. He's not in the business of keeping players he thinks are terrible around. He's here to win and to do that he's building a culture and a system capable of doing that. I'm not making wild-assed assumptions about motivations and trying to pas them off.
But then again, in the past few days you've bullshitted up mock drafts where you forced trades and claimed that there are teams who will NEVER pick a RB in the early rounds. Making up shit seems like your jam.
why do we continually hear that Jones has limited upside and limited ability from certain posters?
What qualifications do you have to make those statements and continue to say them on every thread, yet tell us that other QB's have much more potential?
You continue to prove time and again that the book is closed on Jones and it sounds more and more idiotic because it is forced into every discussion.
Even already had a 11TD/!0INT reference. That's fresh material.
This is what drives me nuts. Like it's set in stone, after that ridiculous situation in his second year. But that's an "excuse". Newsflash, Mahomes and Rogers are maybe throwing 25 TDs with what we were trotting out there. Doubt they would have done too much better as second year player in a new offense. I've seen a ton of growth from DJ last year, including what they were trying to accomplish with him very early. Of course that looks ugly, whenever you need to change how you process things and tweak stuff, it gets uglier before it gets better and you need reps.
Is it a guarantee he puts it together? No, of course not, but I think it's a helluva lot closer than to what some people here are giving him. And they are speaking in absolutes, so I imagine the goalposts will move to a 3rd year QB in maybe an above average offense as it stands now, didn't finish top 5 statistically across the board. On a team where running the ball is clearly going to be the focus. Where this offense finishes in things like points per drive is more indicative of what DJ is, than his stats will be. With how our offensive line is constructed, we are going to be run first in the redzone. And we should be with a back like Saquon and a dual threat in DJ. PA to Rudolph and let KG try to win some one v one battles occasionaly.
The difference btwn Mahomes/Rodgers and Jones is they have fucking talent that shows up on tape. As Cosell would say. nobody will mistake Jones for Mahomes. Jones doesn't have the talent, whether his supporting cast is good or not,
Jones is not going to have a better supporting cast in 2021 and suddenly start throwing lasers and making amazing off-platform, second reaction plays. The tape shows what Jones is. It doesn't mean he can't win games in the NFL. But elite? Likely, not happening.
RE: RE: RE: RE: my guess is Judge has received assurance
that his fate is not tied to Jones. So he has agreed to play out the Jones scenario, and he will get to choose the next guy.
Are we playing the game of making wild asses assumptions now??
yes i am making a guess. I admit it. If you think Judge is all-in on Jones, you are making a guess. The difference is, I admit I am guessing (I literally stated it) and you don't. Stop being a fucking coward.
A fucking coward?? Fuck off.
My take is that Judge wants to win. He's not in the business of keeping players he thinks are terrible around. He's here to win and to do that he's building a culture and a system capable of doing that. I'm not making wild-assed assumptions about motivations and trying to pas them off.
But then again, in the past few days you've bullshitted up mock drafts where you forced trades and claimed that there are teams who will NEVER pick a RB in the early rounds. Making up shit seems like your jam.
I agree Judge wants to win. I don't know that he has the power yet to move on from Jones, and you don't know either.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Yeah, that ain't enough. Public statements about Jones
why do we continually hear that Jones has limited upside and limited ability from certain posters?
What qualifications do you have to make those statements and continue to say them on every thread, yet tell us that other QB's have much more potential?
You continue to prove time and again that the book is closed on Jones and it sounds more and more idiotic because it is forced into every discussion.
Even already had a 11TD/!0INT reference. That's fresh material.
Let me guess - we should genuflect and defer to the "experts" at One Giants Way because they have done such a stellar job the last decade and most recently under hero Dave Gettleman...JFC.
Clearly this year is Jones' year to succeed or not
I don't think they are drafting a QB, not at all. No FA additions, *maybe* a training camp body. This year I think as close as possible, the Giants legitimately have a roster (barring crazy injuries and assuming continued great coaching) where they can say, any decent QB will play well here in 2021. If Jones does that, or better, we know. If he falters, well there are no more excuses and surely they will draft or trade for a QB after this season and start up a competition. That works for me. Let's all just watch and see what Jones does this year.
could change by Week 4 if the team's record is 0-4...
Put it a different way. What evidence would refute that? What else is on the table at all other than the man's word?
I am not refuting it. Just saying you do not really know...you know?
It's a terrible world then where the first go to is that the guy we supposedly like (as our favorite team's coach) is a born liar.
Liar? Who is calling Judge a liar? A coach not giving his actual feelings, isn't lying. It's pretty much part of the job. It is fairly puritanical to call coach-speak, lying.
RE: Clearly this year is Jones' year to succeed or not
I don't think they are drafting a QB, not at all. No FA additions, *maybe* a training camp body. This year I think as close as possible, the Giants legitimately have a roster (barring crazy injuries and assuming continued great coaching) where they can say, any decent QB will play well here in 2021. If Jones does that, or better, we know. If he falters, well there are no more excuses and surely they will draft or trade for a QB after this season and start up a competition. That works for me. Let's all just watch and see what Jones does this year.
If Kyle Trask or Davis Mills falls to Day 3 I would not rule out drafting a QB (a la Ryan Nassib pick)
If you can't point to college production and you can't point to the scouting reports from numerous sources describing the traits that Jones, Fields, and Lance possess...then what source can we point to that would tell us Jones is their better or equal?
It sounds like we have to defer to "they're the professionals and they know better than us".
We're in "QB Hell" right now. We're entering 2021 hoping that a kid who wasn't great in three years in college and hasn't been great in two years in the pros suddenly becomes a great pro. It's a sad state.
If you can't point to college production and you can't point to the scouting reports from numerous sources describing the traits that Jones, Fields, and Lance possess...then what source can we point to that would tell us Jones is their better or equal?
It sounds like we have to defer to "they're the professionals and they know better than us".
The last citadel of the defenders of the faith.
The problem is numerous QB's before have had traits and great college statistics and still failed at the NFL level. Ryan Leaf had a better AY/A, Y/A and comparable TD/INT to Peyton Manning in 1997 despite Leaf being a Junior and Manning a Senior. Leaf, by all accounts was more athletic and had the stronger arm. Who was the better QB in the NFL?
This is what drives me nuts. Like it's set in stone, after that ridiculous situation in his second year. But that's an "excuse". Newsflash, Mahomes and Rogers are maybe throwing 25 TDs with what we were trotting out there. Doubt they would have done too much better as second year player in a new offense. I've seen a ton of growth from DJ last year, including what they were trying to accomplish with him very early. Of course that looks ugly, whenever you need to change how you process things and tweak stuff, it gets uglier before it gets better and you need reps.
Jones is not going to have a better supporting cast in 2021 and suddenly start throwing lasers and making amazing off-platform, second reaction plays. The tape shows what Jones is. It doesn't mean he can't win games in the NFL. But elite? Likely, not happening.
If your plan is to wait on an elite QB to come around, there's a reason for that word. They come around every 5 years or so. Not everyone can be elite. How does the elite list stand right now? Mahomes, Rogers, and maybe Allen will make the jump(I believe he will). Unlike you, when I see DJ, there are certain things there, that I believe he can be in that top 3-8 group.
One thing I never see get mentioned is his out and out speed (fastest QB in NFL last year). Now that we have Barkley coming back it's going to force a lot of teams into man. And now that we have legit talent as pass catchers, it gets the defense to turn its back. We are going to see some very big chunk plays from the pass game coming from DJs legs. Teams will be forced to spy with an athletic LB, which opens thing up for Engram. He has plus attributes, aptitude for deep ball, great ball placement, and fearless attitude. The pocket presence got better, and he got much stronger with ball. Another year in weight room (and from what we heard put on another few lbs of muscle) those balls that were squibling out are going to be held onto.
If you can't point to college production and you can't point to the scouting reports from numerous sources describing the traits that Jones, Fields, and Lance possess...then what source can we point to that would tell us Jones is their better or equal?
It sounds like we have to defer to "they're the professionals and they know better than us".
The last citadel of the defenders of the faith.
That's Deep. :-)
Btw - somewhere in there is the whole "wait and see" mantra. But fmic would know for certain as he runs those defender meetings...
We're in "QB Hell" right now. We're entering 2021 hoping that a kid who wasn't great in three years in college and hasn't been great in two years in the pros suddenly becomes a great pro. It's a sad state.
I would argue that we are not in "QB Hell" yet because we can get out of Jones's contract easily if a better option presented itself especially since, if he struggles in 2021, you just don't exercise 5th year option and if he does well you exercise it at a cost below market value if he does develop. "QB Hell" would be what Minneosta is in with Kirk Cousins where you are paying top dollar on an uncuttable contract for a QB who is not going to get you over the hump. To me "QB Hell" is a combination of the QB being too good to put you in draft position for a replacement and too expensive to get rid of.
This is what drives me nuts. Like it's set in stone, after that ridiculous situation in his second year. But that's an "excuse". Newsflash, Mahomes and Rogers are maybe throwing 25 TDs with what we were trotting out there. Doubt they would have done too much better as second year player in a new offense. I've seen a ton of growth from DJ last year, including what they were trying to accomplish with him very early. Of course that looks ugly, whenever you need to change how you process things and tweak stuff, it gets uglier before it gets better and you need reps.
Jones is not going to have a better supporting cast in 2021 and suddenly start throwing lasers and making amazing off-platform, second reaction plays. The tape shows what Jones is. It doesn't mean he can't win games in the NFL. But elite? Likely, not happening.
If your plan is to wait on an elite QB to come around, there's a reason for that word. They come around every 5 years or so. Not everyone can be elite. How does the elite list stand right now? Mahomes, Rogers, and maybe Allen will make the jump(I believe he will). Unlike you, when I see DJ, there are certain things there, that I believe he can be in that top 3-8 group.
One thing I never see get mentioned is his out and out speed (fastest QB in NFL last year). Now that we have Barkley coming back it's going to force a lot of teams into man. And now that we have legit talent as pass catchers, it gets the defense to turn its back. We are going to see some very big chunk plays from the pass game coming from DJs legs. Teams will be forced to spy with an athletic LB, which opens thing up for Engram. He has plus attributes, aptitude for deep ball, great ball placement, and fearless attitude. The pocket presence got better, and he got much stronger with ball. Another year in weight room (and from what we heard put on another few lbs of muscle) those balls that were squibling out are going to be held onto.
not true.. there are 6 to 8 QBs in that category any given season. And if you are not looking to nab one, you won't get one.
If you can't point to college production and you can't point to the scouting reports from numerous sources describing the traits that Jones, Fields, and Lance possess...then what source can we point to that would tell us Jones is their better or equal?
It sounds like we have to defer to "they're the professionals and they know better than us".
The last citadel of the defenders of the faith.
The problem is numerous QB's before have had traits and great college statistics and still failed at the NFL level. Ryan Leaf had a better AY/A, Y/A and comparable TD/INT to Peyton Manning in 1997 despite Leaf being a Junior and Manning a Senior. Leaf, by all accounts was more athletic and had the stronger arm. Who was the better QB in the NFL?
We're not talking about Leaf and Manning. We're talking about Jones v. Fields and Lance.
If you can't point to college production and you can't point to the scouting reports from numerous sources describing the traits that Jones, Fields, and Lance possess...then what source can we point to that would tell us Jones is their better or equal?
It sounds like we have to defer to "they're the professionals and they know better than us".
The last citadel of the defenders of the faith.
The problem is numerous QB's before have had traits and great college statistics and still failed at the NFL level. Ryan Leaf had a better AY/A, Y/A and comparable TD/INT to Peyton Manning in 1997 despite Leaf being a Junior and Manning a Senior. Leaf, by all accounts was more athletic and had the stronger arm. Who was the better QB in the NFL?
We're not talking about Leaf and Manning. We're talking about Jones v. Fields and Lance.
You asked about comparisons and college stats and someone gave you an example. Stop moving the goalposts.
If you can't point to college production and you can't point to the scouting reports from numerous sources describing the traits that Jones, Fields, and Lance possess...then what source can we point to that would tell us Jones is their better or equal?
It sounds like we have to defer to "they're the professionals and they know better than us".
The last citadel of the defenders of the faith.
The problem is numerous QB's before have had traits and great college statistics and still failed at the NFL level. Ryan Leaf had a better AY/A, Y/A and comparable TD/INT to Peyton Manning in 1997 despite Leaf being a Junior and Manning a Senior. Leaf, by all accounts was more athletic and had the stronger arm. Who was the better QB in the NFL?
We're not talking about Leaf and Manning. We're talking about Jones v. Fields and Lance.
I think the discussion included
Your thesis that college performance guarantees nfl success.
If you can't point to college production and you can't point to the scouting reports from numerous sources describing the traits that Jones, Fields, and Lance possess...then what source can we point to that would tell us Jones is their better or equal?
It sounds like we have to defer to "they're the professionals and they know better than us".
The last citadel of the defenders of the faith.
The problem is numerous QB's before have had traits and great college statistics and still failed at the NFL level. Ryan Leaf had a better AY/A, Y/A and comparable TD/INT to Peyton Manning in 1997 despite Leaf being a Junior and Manning a Senior. Leaf, by all accounts was more athletic and had the stronger arm. Who was the better QB in the NFL?
We're not talking about Leaf and Manning. We're talking about Jones v. Fields and Lance.
To me both Fields and Lance need a minimum of one year on the bench if they are going to reach their potential so you are burning one year of the rookie scale on a guy who will be inactive most of the year. When Fields faced more complex schemes he struggled. That is nothing compared to what he will face in the NFL. Lance never faced anything exotic because his team was so much better than everyone he went up against that FCS schools lacked personnel to match up. You were the one who mentioned statistics and physical traits and I am saying that those are not the be all and end all of what makes a great NFL QB otherwise Leaf would have been the HOFer not Manning.
If you can't point to college production and you can't point to the scouting reports from numerous sources describing the traits that Jones, Fields, and Lance possess...then what source can we point to that would tell us Jones is their better or equal?
From Boylhart...
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Daniel Jones has franchise quarterback “potential”. He has the size, athleticism, arm strength, accuracy along with the ability to throw from the pocket that you look for in a potential franchise quarterback. Daniel has excellent maturity in all facets of his game and because he is so respected by his teammates he has excellent leadership skills to make the players around him better. He can throw on the move with accuracy and has the ability to change his release point without losing any accuracy or velocity. He can play from under center or in a spread offense because of his quick feet and excellent balance. Daniel is smart and goes through his progressions and if he can break the habit of trying to make every play a big play, Daniel could reach his full potential as a franchise quarterback in the NFL.
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It sounds like we have to defer to "they're the professionals and they know better than us". The last citadel of the defenders of the faith.
Well...aren't they professionals who know better than us? Do you seriously think you know better than Gettleman and Judge and the Giants coaches and scouting department with all the resources of the NFL at their disposal? Time to let go of your delusions!
Garrett developed two "off the radar" prospects in Romo and Prescott into superstars. The problems with Jones cannot and should not be blamed on Garrett.
Jones regressed last year because Jones regressed last year. No more excuses.
If you can't point to college production and you can't point to the scouting reports from numerous sources describing the traits that Jones, Fields, and Lance possess...then what source can we point to that would tell us Jones is their better or equal?
It sounds like we have to defer to "they're the professionals and they know better than us".
The last citadel of the defenders of the faith.
The problem is numerous QB's before have had traits and great college statistics and still failed at the NFL level. Ryan Leaf had a better AY/A, Y/A and comparable TD/INT to Peyton Manning in 1997 despite Leaf being a Junior and Manning a Senior. Leaf, by all accounts was more athletic and had the stronger arm. Who was the better QB in the NFL?
We're not talking about Leaf and Manning. We're talking about Jones v. Fields and Lance.
To me both Fields and Lance need a minimum of one year on the bench if they are going to reach their potential so you are burning one year of the rookie scale on a guy who will be inactive most of the year. When Fields faced more complex schemes he struggled. That is nothing compared to what he will face in the NFL. Lance never faced anything exotic because his team was so much better than everyone he went up against that FCS schools lacked personnel to match up. You were the one who mentioned statistics and physical traits and I am saying that those are not the be all and end all of what makes a great NFL QB otherwise Leaf would have been the HOFer not Manning.
Lance, yes. But Fields could and probably should, start at some point this season.
It sounds like we have to defer to "they're the professionals and they know better than us". The last citadel of the defenders of the faith.
Well...aren't they professionals who know better than us? Do you seriously think you know better than Gettleman and Judge and the Giants coaches and scouting department with all the resources of the NFL at their disposal? Time to let go of your delusions!
All those posters that ripped into Marc Ross a week or so ago for being a moron in our Front Office must have the same delusions...
Why do you keep acting as if field and Lance are assured to be better than Jones?? Are you clairvoyant now?
Is that the position being taken? My view is Fields and Lance are more gifted physically and have had more success in college. So that makes them much more attractive and with potentially more upside than Jones.
In an honest moment, I can't imagine you feel great moving forward with Jones.
Why do you keep acting as if field and Lance are assured to be better than Jones?? Are you clairvoyant now?
Is that the position being taken? My view is Fields and Lance are more gifted physically and have had more success in college. So that makes them much more attractive and with potentially more upside than Jones.
In an honest moment, I can't imagine you feel great moving forward with Jones.
I don’t feel great going forward with Jones, but I also don’t feel a QB who will be there at 11 plus unknown future pick and figuring out what to do with Jones is better than keeping Jones to see if there is enough improvement, addressing other issues on this team, and if Jones doesn’t progress getting a QB in a future draft.
My view is Fields and Lance are more gifted physically and have had more success in college. So that makes them much more attractive and with potentially more upside than Jones. In an honest moment, I can't imagine you feel great moving forward with Jones.
I can't speak for the FatMan but I can tell you that I honestly feel better moving ahead with Jones and a draft pick than spending that pick on either Fields or Lance. If the Giants had the first pick I would spend it on Lawrence, but other than that, I prefer to stick with Jones than roll the dice. Honestly.
My view is Fields and Lance are more gifted physically and have had more success in college. So that makes them much more attractive and with potentially more upside than Jones. In an honest moment, I can't imagine you feel great moving forward with Jones.
I can't speak for the FatMan but I can tell you that I honestly feel better moving ahead with Jones and a draft pick than spending that pick on either Fields or Lance. If the Giants had the first pick I would spend it on Lawrence, but other than that, I prefer to stick with Jones than roll the dice. Honestly.
Fair enough, but I just can't get there. I see four guys in this draft more advanced than Jones.
Just out of curiosity, if Jones was in this draft, and just based on his performances at Duke, would you still feel the same way?
Why do you keep acting as if field and Lance are assured to be better than Jones?? Are you clairvoyant now?
Is that the position being taken? My view is Fields and Lance are more gifted physically and have had more success in college. So that makes them much more attractive and with potentially more upside than Jones.
This is the essence of it. There is also the third positive element of resetting the QB rookie contract clock.
Good point about the contract reset. Plus, the value of the 11th pick versus when Jones was the 6th pick.
The total value for #11 is $17.9M this year. The total value of Jones's contract was basically $26M.
I shouldn't be, but I am pretty amazed how many would still stick with Jones using this hypothetical. You really have to have some sparkling, rose tinted glasses to be convinced he's shown enough to date.
I bet some would stick with Jones over Lawrence. ;)
I actually trust Judge quite a bit at this point, so I'm good with who we draft and root for the pick until they deserve my (our) ire... lol
I'd be fine with a QB if it's what they think we need to draft. And I'd root for Daniel Jones to do well as well as the pick.
I actually trust Judge quite a bit at this point, so I'm good with who we draft and root for the pick until they deserve my (our) ire... lol
I'd be fine with a QB if it's what they think we need to draft. And I'd root for Daniel Jones to do well as well as the pick.
Same.
It won’t happen, and isn’t worth burning brain cells, but the idea isn’t crazy if they love one of those guys.
Why can't we have 2 QBs in 2021? I'd love to have Jones AND Lance.
because what the hell does a year or two matter to a billion dollar organization with millions of fans.
Ha ha, I almost put that in my post but I didn’t want to call him out.
On the other hand, if MJones falls to #11, I doubt I pull the trigger. MJones is more talented than DJ, but he shouldn't be drafted in the first round. Which, ironically, should have been the case with DJ.
However, the way things are shaping up, I doubt we have to face this situation.
But I would bet that Mara and Gettleman are too stubborn and determined to make Jones work. So they wouldn't be brave enough to make this type of move.
right.. and a high upside QB is not an impact player in the NFL.
We couldn't draft Mahomes bc Eli needed a high impact player. We couldn't draft Allen bc Barkley was the best player in the draft. We couldn't draft Herbert bc Jones...
Yea lots of reasons not to draft great QBs.
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he needs an impact player that will help push the Giants to at least a winning record if not the playoffs. No way possible he would draft a QB this year.
right.. and a high upside QB is not an impact player in the NFL.
We couldn't draft Mahomes bc Eli needed a high impact player. We couldn't draft Allen bc Barkley was the best player in the draft. We couldn't draft Herbert bc Jones...
Yea lots of reasons not to draft great QBs.
I want Smith or Waddle, but if those guys are drafted ahead of us and a guy like Lance or Fields is sitting there at 11 you have to at least think about it.
But gidie won't be giddy.
On the other hand, if MJones falls to #11, I doubt I pull the trigger. MJones is more talented than DJ, but he shouldn't be drafted in the first round. Which, ironically, should have been the case with DJ.
lol @ BW. Like you have any idea if these guys are or will be better than D. Jones. Aren't you one of the guys that also wanted Darnold/Rosen? I try to respect your opinions but the surety with which you post your OPINIONS grates on me for some reason. And before you go back at me, it's really no offense intended. I'm just stating the reason why we have so many debates about it.... lol.
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he needs an impact player that will help push the Giants to at least a winning record if not the playoffs. No way possible he would draft a QB this year.
right.. and a high upside QB is not an impact player in the NFL.
We couldn't draft Mahomes bc Eli needed a high impact player. We couldn't draft Allen bc Barkley was the best player in the draft. We couldn't draft Herbert bc Jones...
Yea lots of reasons not to draft great QBs.
If a great QB is there like Lawrence then absolutely the Giants should go in that direction. No other QB in this draft has both (1) more upside than Jones and (2) a floor that is higher than what Jones has shown so far. Fields and Lance could end up like Haskins or J.P. Losman which would be downgrades from Jones.
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In comment 15235501 GFAN52 said:
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he needs an impact player that will help push the Giants to at least a winning record if not the playoffs. No way possible he would draft a QB this year.
right.. and a high upside QB is not an impact player in the NFL.
We couldn't draft Mahomes bc Eli needed a high impact player. We couldn't draft Allen bc Barkley was the best player in the draft. We couldn't draft Herbert bc Jones...
Yea lots of reasons not to draft great QBs.
If a great QB is there like Lawrence then absolutely the Giants should go in that direction. No other QB in this draft has both (1) more upside than Jones and (2) a floor that is higher than what Jones has shown so far. Fields and Lance could end up like Haskins or J.P. Losman which would be downgrades from Jones.
Both Lance and Fields have higher upside than Daniel Jones. If you offered Jones for any of the first 10 picks of the draft, you would be rebuffed. The league views it that way as well.
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In comment 15235509 Producer said:
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In comment 15235501 GFAN52 said:
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he needs an impact player that will help push the Giants to at least a winning record if not the playoffs. No way possible he would draft a QB this year.
right.. and a high upside QB is not an impact player in the NFL.
We couldn't draft Mahomes bc Eli needed a high impact player. We couldn't draft Allen bc Barkley was the best player in the draft. We couldn't draft Herbert bc Jones...
Yea lots of reasons not to draft great QBs.
If a great QB is there like Lawrence then absolutely the Giants should go in that direction. No other QB in this draft has both (1) more upside than Jones and (2) a floor that is higher than what Jones has shown so far. Fields and Lance could end up like Haskins or J.P. Losman which would be downgrades from Jones.
Both Lance and Fields have higher upside than Daniel Jones. If you offered Jones for any of the first 10 picks of the draft, you would be rebuffed. The league views it that way as well.
I said both of those two things. Both have more upside, but if they end up like Losman and Haskins that would be WORSE for the Giants than continuting with Daniel Jones. Not only would you be getting a worse QB, you would be throwing away a chance at getting a player that helps your roster.
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were to fall to #11 than we should undoubtedly draft either and move Jones ASAP. Both are more gifted than Jones.
On the other hand, if MJones falls to #11, I doubt I pull the trigger. MJones is more talented than DJ, but he shouldn't be drafted in the first round. Which, ironically, should have been the case with DJ.
lol @ BW. Like you have any idea if these guys are or will be better than D. Jones. Aren't you one of the guys that also wanted Darnold/Rosen? I try to respect your opinions but the surety with which you post your OPINIONS grates on me for some reason. And before you go back at me, it's really no offense intended. I'm just stating the reason why we have so many debates about it.... lol.
Well, I would have taken most positions over Barkley in 2018 at #2. But, yes, I would have taken Darnold or Allen over Barkley - easily. Rosen's injuries were troublesome, but I could have lived with that, just not as much.
With all due respect, I don't know how anyone can watch Fields or Lance and not see a more talented prospect than Jones. Both are have more arm talent, are more mobile, and are better athletes.
If you want to counter that Jones has done some decent work thus far in actual NFL games, than that's an angle to play. It's not something I would buy, but I would get the idea...
Lance? Maybe. I don't think there is nearly enough history on him to know one way or the other.
That said, if we drafted one of them, I would root for them... lol.
Lance? Maybe. I don't think there is nearly enough history on him to know one way or the other.
That said, if we drafted one of them, I would root for them... lol.
We had a lot of history on Jones and, frankly, I didn't find it that impressive. Lance definitely could have used another year of data, but going 28TDs/0INTs in 2019 and 1K rushing was pretty damn awesome. The other interesting thing with Lance is all of the time he spent under center. I believe he has the most experience there versus his peers in this draft.
OSU does not run a single read passing offense. Like Alabama, it just so happens that most of the time the first read is usually open due to superior talent. Day is highly regarded in NFL circles and, I believe, will be an NFL coach in the next five years. He is creative with his offenses and is a great play caller.
Read Sy's profile on Fields. He has a higher grade on Fields than Jones and he writes that Fields has a "tremendous arm" and is one of "the best athletes at the position to ever come out". I can assure you Sy was not that effusive with praise on Jones.
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In comment 15235509 Producer said:
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In comment 15235501 GFAN52 said:
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he needs an impact player that will help push the Giants to at least a winning record if not the playoffs. No way possible he would draft a QB this year.
right.. and a high upside QB is not an impact player in the NFL.
We couldn't draft Mahomes bc Eli needed a high impact player. We couldn't draft Allen bc Barkley was the best player in the draft. We couldn't draft Herbert bc Jones...
Yea lots of reasons not to draft great QBs.
If a great QB is there like Lawrence then absolutely the Giants should go in that direction. No other QB in this draft has both (1) more upside than Jones and (2) a floor that is higher than what Jones has shown so far. Fields and Lance could end up like Haskins or J.P. Losman which would be downgrades from Jones.
Both Lance and Fields have higher upside than Daniel Jones. If you offered Jones for any of the first 10 picks of the draft, you would be rebuffed. The league views it that way as well.
You sir, are an idiot.
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In comment 15235532 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15235509 Producer said:
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In comment 15235501 GFAN52 said:
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he needs an impact player that will help push the Giants to at least a winning record if not the playoffs. No way possible he would draft a QB this year.
right.. and a high upside QB is not an impact player in the NFL.
We couldn't draft Mahomes bc Eli needed a high impact player. We couldn't draft Allen bc Barkley was the best player in the draft. We couldn't draft Herbert bc Jones...
Yea lots of reasons not to draft great QBs.
If a great QB is there like Lawrence then absolutely the Giants should go in that direction. No other QB in this draft has both (1) more upside than Jones and (2) a floor that is higher than what Jones has shown so far. Fields and Lance could end up like Haskins or J.P. Losman which would be downgrades from Jones.
Both Lance and Fields have higher upside than Daniel Jones. If you offered Jones for any of the first 10 picks of the draft, you would be rebuffed. The league views it that way as well.
You sir, are an idiot.
care to expound on your thoughtful and eloquent reply?
SO, if someone like Fields or Lance is there (this is a keep Daniel Jones situation) which means that Smith/Waddle are definitely off the board, and they don't have a trade lined up, would it be worthwhile picking the QB with the idea that a viable trade will come up soon after?
It's very possible they will draft a developmental QB later in the draft, especially if they trade down. If only for cap reasons, I'm sure they'd like to have a backup QB who's on a rookie contract. Plus, if they develop a QB but decide to stick with Jones, they can flip the backup for picks.
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...
SO, if someone like Fields or Lance is there (this is a keep Daniel Jones situation) which means that Smith/Waddle are definitely off the board, and they don't have a trade lined up, would it be worthwhile picking the QB with the idea that a viable trade will come up soon after?
I'd gauge Bill Belichick's interest in the QB.
I think there is still a lot oh holes on this team so there are really no positions I would be unhappy with. We, TE, OL, Edge, CB all seem wise to me, and I have to imagine the first pick will be one of those. I don’t know enough about the individual players to say which should go ahead of which.
A RB, P, K or LS would make me mad. I don’t expect that to happen.
You are bending the definition of good here.
Jones, at best, is average after two years. To have a strong conviction with that over clearly more talented prospects is not the best bet, IMV.
DG is NOT fighting for his job. He is 70 y/o, has more money then he knows what to do with. The only thing he is fighting for is to get to the Super Bowl and build a winner. Like PGA Pros they have the money, they want the hardware or like older NBA players - money they have - titles is what they want.
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The rest of them, Wilson/Lance/Fields/Mac, all have issues and there is zero guaranty they will be as good as Jones. They all have potential, and they all have big issues, just like Jones did.
You are bending the definition of good here.
Jones, at best, is average after two years. To have a strong conviction with that over clearly more talented prospects is not the best bet, IMV.
In fact, after two years of poor performance, Jones is a lesser bet to emerge as elite than any of the top 4 in this draft. Each year that passes when he doesn't do it, decreases the likelihood he will emerge as an elite starter.
Jones:
Fields:
Lance:
Drafting either at #11 and trading Jones would improve the talent at QB and restart the rookie QB contract clock. Neither Fields nor Lance is a sure thing, but Jones is closer to the bust designation right now than either of them are and he's working with a lower skillset.
If either drops to #11 (I'm not a fan of trading up for anyone realistically available in this draft), picking him would be a smart move.
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In comment 15235532 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15235509 Producer said:
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In comment 15235501 GFAN52 said:
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he needs an impact player that will help push the Giants to at least a winning record if not the playoffs. No way possible he would draft a QB this year.
right.. and a high upside QB is not an impact player in the NFL.
We couldn't draft Mahomes bc Eli needed a high impact player. We couldn't draft Allen bc Barkley was the best player in the draft. We couldn't draft Herbert bc Jones...
Yea lots of reasons not to draft great QBs.
If a great QB is there like Lawrence then absolutely the Giants should go in that direction. No other QB in this draft has both (1) more upside than Jones and (2) a floor that is higher than what Jones has shown so far. Fields and Lance could end up like Haskins or J.P. Losman which would be downgrades from Jones.
Both Lance and Fields have higher upside than Daniel Jones. If you offered Jones for any of the first 10 picks of the draft, you would be rebuffed. The league views it that way as well.
You sir, are an idiot.
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But hoping they give DJ his year 3...
Why can't we have 2 QBs in 2021? I'd love to have Jones AND Lance.
I guess I could live with it, but feels that Jones highest trade value would be before he loses a QB competition to be the starter in 2021. Which you expect he would otherwise not sure why you would be hot and heavy to draft Lance at #11.
But maybe Lance isn't ready to take reins at beginning of 2021 but soon thereafter or end of season, whatever.
Its 6 to 5 and pick 'em...
If this is a "prove it year" then he damn sure is teetering on bust status. It's implied in the very term: prove you aren't a bust.
If he hasn't proven it yet and the opportunity is there to improve the talent at the position, improve the talent. Then let the more talented guy go prove it.
There is no reason to feel any attachment to Jones.
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he is no more a bust (yet) than he is a success (yet). Continuous braying one way or the other won't make it so.
Spot fucking on brother!
+ eleventy billion
Jones:
Fields:
Lance:
Drafting either at #11 and trading Jones would improve the talent at QB and restart the rookie QB contract clock. Neither Fields nor Lance is a sure thing, but Jones is closer to the bust designation right now than either of them are and he's working with a lower skillset.
If either drops to #11 (I'm not a fan of trading up for anyone realistically available in this draft), picking him would be a smart move.
Why? The 9ers are likely going to do that with Mac Jones. What's the difference?
By the way - put up Haskins stats vs Fields. and then tell us that one of them is definitively better than the other.
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he is no more a bust (yet) than he is a success (yet). Continuous braying one way or the other won't make it so.
If this is a "prove it year" then he damn sure is teetering on bust status. It's implied in the very term: prove you aren't a bust.
If he hasn't proven it yet and the opportunity is there to improve the talent at the position, improve the talent. Then let the more talented guy go prove it.
There is no reason to feel any attachment to Jones.
If they are better prospects, then drafting one makes sense because by your own admission Jones has yet to prove he's the guy.
So why not go with the better prospect?
By the way - put up Haskins stats vs Fields. and then tell us that one of them is definitively better than the other.
They shouldn't by summarily dismissed either. So they should be considered as some form of comparison. How much weight you give is where the subjectivity comes in.
Well, I think there are more signs pointing to the bust column, but that's probably a fair way to put it.
But if you don't have that answer, and there is an opportunity to go with a more talented prospect from this class, what is the point in waiting? Hoping that the coin comes up heads?
Hell Go Terps said that above - period.
If they are better prospects, then drafting one makes sense because by your own admission Jones has yet to prove he's the guy.
So why not go with the better prospect?
If he does, I'll roll with it, if not...will you?
If they are better prospects, then drafting one makes sense because by your own admission Jones has yet to prove he's the guy.
So why not go with the better prospect?
Better prospect doesn't necessarily mean better player. Exhibit A: Haskins' conduct.
Look, why are you so intent on kicking Jones to the curb after two years on the job? Would you have kicked quarterbacks like Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw, Phil Simms, and Eli to the curb because they took more than 2 years to gel?
Even if we still draft a quarterback this year, our offensive line still isn't great at pass blocking and our receiving corps needs at least one more playmaker in case our current ones go down. Why not focus on acquiring another target for Jones or an offensive lineman to protect him instead of waste resources showing we have no confidence that he can get the job done?
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
Honestly man - where are you going with that?? In 2018, you probably could have asked what is better about tannehill than Darnold or Rosen. I don't know how else to tell you this - but Jones has two years of experience under his belt. Fields and Lance have none. Both could end up as complete busts like Haskins or Rosen.
And then guess what? Their college stats mean absolutely fucking nothing.
If they are better prospects, then drafting one makes sense because by your own admission Jones has yet to prove he's the guy.
So why not go with the better prospect?
BECAUSE JUDGE LIKES JONES. There's your answer! Over and over!
Again, I say this with peace and love....until proven otherwise, JUDGE is happy with Jones. That's it!
It's that simple!
Hell Go Terps said that above - period.
I didn't say that. I said they are worth using as some point of comparison. We've been down this path before, but I think completion % and YPA are decent metrics to start.
Regardless, as I try to limit my subjectivity in this, here is what Sy said about Fields:
And he gave him a higher grade than Jones. Do you recall Sy being this effusive with praise on Jones? Based on that, who would you rather have going forward? Jones or Fields if he happened to drop?
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
We know what he has shown versus NFL defenses and the coaching staff has a year of experience knowing what he can and can't do so we can tailor an O in 2021 to his strengths with an offseason to implement it. If Fields and Lance only end up being like Haskins and J.P. Losman we are in a WORSE situation because we have a worse QB and have squandered draft capital that could have been used to select someone that would have made the Giants better. I have seen nothing from Jones so far that he can be a better QB than the sum of the parts around him, which concerns me, but the only QB who appears to be that in this draft is Trevor Lawrence. Unless he gets caught being photographed with a gas mask he is not falling to 11.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
I will want to shoot myself in the head for responding but you cannot discount development time. Pick Fields or Lance and next year, we will hear you again carping that we should spend our top pick on a QB.
Since we have not determined what Jones is yet, we can't just dismiss 2 years of pro experience plus whatever familiarity with old and improvement with new offensive players.
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They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
We know what he has shown versus NFL defenses and the coaching staff has a year of experience knowing what he can and can't do so we can tailor an O in 2021 to his strengths with an offseason to implement it. If Fields and Lance only end up being like Haskins and J.P. Losman we are in a WORSE situation because we have a worse QB and have squandered draft capital that could have been used to select someone that would have made the Giants better. I have seen nothing from Jones so far that he can be a better QB than the sum of the parts around him, which concerns me, but the only QB who appears to be that in this draft is Trevor Lawrence. Unless he gets caught being photographed with a gas mask he is not falling to 11.
Jones 11/10 TD/INT. nuff said. it can scarcely get worse than that.
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You could have concluded your post with "They are better prospects."
If they are better prospects, then drafting one makes sense because by your own admission Jones has yet to prove he's the guy.
So why not go with the better prospect?
Better prospect doesn't necessarily mean better player. Exhibit A: Haskins' conduct.
Just to be clear on this Haskins point. I did NOT like Haskins by the '19 draft. I was very down on him. I believe Terps was, too. But I don't recall. So let's just drop the Haskins stuff once and for all...
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They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
I will want to shoot myself in the head for responding but you cannot discount development time. Pick Fields or Lance and next year, we will hear you again carping that we should spend our top pick on a QB.
Since we have not determined what Jones is yet, we can't just dismiss 2 years of pro experience plus whatever familiarity with old and improvement with new offensive players.
we have determined Jones is not elite, and therefore, not good enough to not consider other options.
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In comment 15235985 Go Terps said:
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They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
We know what he has shown versus NFL defenses and the coaching staff has a year of experience knowing what he can and can't do so we can tailor an O in 2021 to his strengths with an offseason to implement it. If Fields and Lance only end up being like Haskins and J.P. Losman we are in a WORSE situation because we have a worse QB and have squandered draft capital that could have been used to select someone that would have made the Giants better. I have seen nothing from Jones so far that he can be a better QB than the sum of the parts around him, which concerns me, but the only QB who appears to be that in this draft is Trevor Lawrence. Unless he gets caught being photographed with a gas mask he is not falling to 11.
Jones 11/10 TD/INT. nuff said. it can scarcely get worse than that.
Jones 24/12 TD/INT. Maybe the problem is Garrett not Jones and putting Kitchens more involved in offense design and gameplanning will improve Jones.
Best year 2018
373 for 533
70% Completion
4,831 yards
10.3 AY/A
50 TDs (Holy shiite... I forgot how many TDs he had that year)
Fields:
Best year 2019
238 for 354
67.2% Completion
3,273 yards
11.2 AY/A
41 TDs
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is summarily dismissing them? You guys are the ones saying the college stats definitively make them better prospects.
Hell Go Terps said that above - period.
I didn't say that. I said they are worth using as some point of comparison. We've been down this path before, but I think completion % and YPA are decent metrics to start.
Regardless, as I try to limit my subjectivity in this, here is what Sy said about Fields:
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He is clearly talented enough on multiple levels to be a big-time pro. He has a tremendous arm, he is one of the best athletes at the position to ever come out, and he plays with a slow heartbeat that exudes confidence.
And he gave him a higher grade than Jones. Do you recall Sy being this effusive with praise on Jones? Based on that, who would you rather have going forward? Jones or Fields if he happened to drop?
BUt if you use Sy as a reference, then you go for the third and deciding year. Ala,
And we don't know shit about Judge on a couple fronts:
1. How he much he likes Jones (including how much he'd like him vs. Fields or Lance)
2. How much say he has on this. QB is an owner-level decision. If Judge says Fields and Gettleman says Jones, that doesn't mean we're just going to draft Fields. I actually would really doubt it.
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In comment 15235985 Go Terps said:
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They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
I will want to shoot myself in the head for responding but you cannot discount development time. Pick Fields or Lance and next year, we will hear you again carping that we should spend our top pick on a QB.
Since we have not determined what Jones is yet, we can't just dismiss 2 years of pro experience plus whatever familiarity with old and improvement with new offensive players.
we have determined Jones is not elite, and therefore, not good enough to not consider other options.
Considering other options is not the same as DRAFTING other option and failing to draft a QB is not an indictment against DG especially when you consider guys like Devonta Smith, Kwity Paye, etc. received higher grades from Sy than the QB's being mentioned.
just a flashback...
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In comment 15235994 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15235985 Go Terps said:
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They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
We know what he has shown versus NFL defenses and the coaching staff has a year of experience knowing what he can and can't do so we can tailor an O in 2021 to his strengths with an offseason to implement it. If Fields and Lance only end up being like Haskins and J.P. Losman we are in a WORSE situation because we have a worse QB and have squandered draft capital that could have been used to select someone that would have made the Giants better. I have seen nothing from Jones so far that he can be a better QB than the sum of the parts around him, which concerns me, but the only QB who appears to be that in this draft is Trevor Lawrence. Unless he gets caught being photographed with a gas mask he is not falling to 11.
Jones 11/10 TD/INT. nuff said. it can scarcely get worse than that.
Jones 24/12 TD/INT. Maybe the problem is Garrett not Jones and putting Kitchens more involved in offense design and gameplanning will improve Jones.
put it this way.. Jimmy G is less than 2 years removed from a Super Bowl and the 49ers are moving on. Why is it ok to move on from Jimmy G but the Giants should at least consider high upside QBs?
Best year 2018
373 for 533
70% Completion
4,831 yards
10.3 AY/A
50 TDs (Holy shiite... I forgot how many TDs he had that year)
Fields:
Best year 2019
238 for 354
67.2% Completion
3,273 yards
11.2 AY/A
41 TDs
Haskins had ONE year. Fields has put together two quality years. And Fields is a legit dual threat with 15 rushing TDs over those two years.
It's a bad comparison and you are wasting key strokes...
And we don't know shit about Judge on a couple fronts:
1. How he much he likes Jones (including how much he'd like him vs. Fields or Lance)
2. How much say he has on this. QB is an owner-level decision. If Judge says Fields and Gettleman says Jones, that doesn't mean we're just going to draft Fields. I actually would really doubt it.
You keep repeating the "we don't know how much he likes Jones/what he *really* feels about Jones" falsehood so often that one must think you are trying to will it into existence despite all and abundant, evidence to the contrary.
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In comment 15235995 Bill L said:
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In comment 15235985 Go Terps said:
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They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
I will want to shoot myself in the head for responding but you cannot discount development time. Pick Fields or Lance and next year, we will hear you again carping that we should spend our top pick on a QB.
Since we have not determined what Jones is yet, we can't just dismiss 2 years of pro experience plus whatever familiarity with old and improvement with new offensive players.
we have determined Jones is not elite, and therefore, not good enough to not consider other options.
Considering other options is not the same as DRAFTING other option and failing to draft a QB is not an indictment against DG especially when you consider guys like Devonta Smith, Kwity Paye, etc. received higher grades from Sy than the QB's being mentioned.
If I am choosing between Lance, Smith, Paye and Parsons, I'm drafting Lance.
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He's actually CLOSER to that point than either Fields or Lance are...he's in a prove it year.
And we don't know shit about Judge on a couple fronts:
1. How he much he likes Jones (including how much he'd like him vs. Fields or Lance)
2. How much say he has on this. QB is an owner-level decision. If Judge says Fields and Gettleman says Jones, that doesn't mean we're just going to draft Fields. I actually would really doubt it.
You keep repeating the "we don't know how much he likes Jones/what he *really* feels about Jones" falsehood so often that one must think you are trying to will it into existence despite all and abundant, evidence to the contrary.
We don't know what he *thinks*. We only know things he says.
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In comment 15235996 Producer said:
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In comment 15235994 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15235985 Go Terps said:
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They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
We know what he has shown versus NFL defenses and the coaching staff has a year of experience knowing what he can and can't do so we can tailor an O in 2021 to his strengths with an offseason to implement it. If Fields and Lance only end up being like Haskins and J.P. Losman we are in a WORSE situation because we have a worse QB and have squandered draft capital that could have been used to select someone that would have made the Giants better. I have seen nothing from Jones so far that he can be a better QB than the sum of the parts around him, which concerns me, but the only QB who appears to be that in this draft is Trevor Lawrence. Unless he gets caught being photographed with a gas mask he is not falling to 11.
Jones 11/10 TD/INT. nuff said. it can scarcely get worse than that.
Jones 24/12 TD/INT. Maybe the problem is Garrett not Jones and putting Kitchens more involved in offense design and gameplanning will improve Jones.
put it this way.. Jimmy G is less than 2 years removed from a Super Bowl and the 49ers are moving on. Why is it ok to move on from Jimmy G but the Giants should at least consider high upside QBs?
It's possible, if not probable, that the Giants coaches consider Jones a high upside QB while SF feels that Jimmy G has been around long enough to have plateaued.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
Would you trust a rookie quarterback with our offensive line, particularly at guard?
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Jones has had several moments that make me think he can be the guy. He also has had several moments that make me think NYG will be moving on at the end of his rookie contract. The inconsistency has been maddening, but he deserves some slack here because the supporting cast has been among the worst in football.
But you'd have to ask Sy the "what if" scenario - what if Fields is there at #11?
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In comment 15235996 Producer said:
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In comment 15235994 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15235985 Go Terps said:
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They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
We know what he has shown versus NFL defenses and the coaching staff has a year of experience knowing what he can and can't do so we can tailor an O in 2021 to his strengths with an offseason to implement it. If Fields and Lance only end up being like Haskins and J.P. Losman we are in a WORSE situation because we have a worse QB and have squandered draft capital that could have been used to select someone that would have made the Giants better. I have seen nothing from Jones so far that he can be a better QB than the sum of the parts around him, which concerns me, but the only QB who appears to be that in this draft is Trevor Lawrence. Unless he gets caught being photographed with a gas mask he is not falling to 11.
Jones 11/10 TD/INT. nuff said. it can scarcely get worse than that.
Jones 24/12 TD/INT. Maybe the problem is Garrett not Jones and putting Kitchens more involved in offense design and gameplanning will improve Jones.
put it this way.. Jimmy G is less than 2 years removed from a Super Bowl and the 49ers are moving on. Why is it ok to move on from Jimmy G but the Giants should at least consider high upside QBs?
Any team would be stupid not to evaluate the QB's because eventually one might become available, but drafting one is a different story. Unless Lawrence falls to 11 there is no QB that will be the highest rated player at that pick.
By the way - put up Haskins stats vs Fields. and then tell us that one of them is definitively better than the other.
Asinine. Let's just draft Houston, Hawaii, and Texas Tech QBs every year!
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In comment 15236001 Producer said:
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In comment 15235995 Bill L said:
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In comment 15235985 Go Terps said:
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They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
I will want to shoot myself in the head for responding but you cannot discount development time. Pick Fields or Lance and next year, we will hear you again carping that we should spend our top pick on a QB.
Since we have not determined what Jones is yet, we can't just dismiss 2 years of pro experience plus whatever familiarity with old and improvement with new offensive players.
we have determined Jones is not elite, and therefore, not good enough to not consider other options.
Considering other options is not the same as DRAFTING other option and failing to draft a QB is not an indictment against DG especially when you consider guys like Devonta Smith, Kwity Paye, etc. received higher grades from Sy than the QB's being mentioned.
If I am choosing between Lance, Smith, Paye and Parsons, I'm drafting Lance.
If those are my options I am drafting Smith
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In comment 15236006 Go Terps said:
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He's actually CLOSER to that point than either Fields or Lance are...he's in a prove it year.
And we don't know shit about Judge on a couple fronts:
1. How he much he likes Jones (including how much he'd like him vs. Fields or Lance)
2. How much say he has on this. QB is an owner-level decision. If Judge says Fields and Gettleman says Jones, that doesn't mean we're just going to draft Fields. I actually would really doubt it.
You keep repeating the "we don't know how much he likes Jones/what he *really* feels about Jones" falsehood so often that one must think you are trying to will it into existence despite all and abundant, evidence to the contrary.
We don't know what he *thinks*. We only know things he says.
Oh Geezus. The point has been proven over and over again., He has gone completely out of his way to state his feelings multiple times. You only don't believe it because it doesn't support what you want to believe. If you don't believe what he says here, then it is virtually impossible to believe what he says about anything, anytime, anywhere.
That's bullshit.
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In comment 15236002 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15235996 Producer said:
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In comment 15235994 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15235985 Go Terps said:
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They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
We know what he has shown versus NFL defenses and the coaching staff has a year of experience knowing what he can and can't do so we can tailor an O in 2021 to his strengths with an offseason to implement it. If Fields and Lance only end up being like Haskins and J.P. Losman we are in a WORSE situation because we have a worse QB and have squandered draft capital that could have been used to select someone that would have made the Giants better. I have seen nothing from Jones so far that he can be a better QB than the sum of the parts around him, which concerns me, but the only QB who appears to be that in this draft is Trevor Lawrence. Unless he gets caught being photographed with a gas mask he is not falling to 11.
Jones 11/10 TD/INT. nuff said. it can scarcely get worse than that.
Jones 24/12 TD/INT. Maybe the problem is Garrett not Jones and putting Kitchens more involved in offense design and gameplanning will improve Jones.
put it this way.. Jimmy G is less than 2 years removed from a Super Bowl and the 49ers are moving on. Why is it ok to move on from Jimmy G but the Giants should at least consider high upside QBs?
It's possible, if not probable, that the Giants coaches consider Jones a high upside QB while SF feels that Jimmy G has been around long enough to have plateaued.
He's not. he has limited talent. The nightmare scenario is that he is good enough to sneak us into the playoffs but never great enough to win Super Bowls. And we wait years to figure it out while other teams aggressively pursue elite options, like the 9'ers.
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In comment 15236011 Producer said:
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In comment 15236002 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15235996 Producer said:
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In comment 15235994 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15235985 Go Terps said:
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They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
We know what he has shown versus NFL defenses and the coaching staff has a year of experience knowing what he can and can't do so we can tailor an O in 2021 to his strengths with an offseason to implement it. If Fields and Lance only end up being like Haskins and J.P. Losman we are in a WORSE situation because we have a worse QB and have squandered draft capital that could have been used to select someone that would have made the Giants better. I have seen nothing from Jones so far that he can be a better QB than the sum of the parts around him, which concerns me, but the only QB who appears to be that in this draft is Trevor Lawrence. Unless he gets caught being photographed with a gas mask he is not falling to 11.
Jones 11/10 TD/INT. nuff said. it can scarcely get worse than that.
Jones 24/12 TD/INT. Maybe the problem is Garrett not Jones and putting Kitchens more involved in offense design and gameplanning will improve Jones.
put it this way.. Jimmy G is less than 2 years removed from a Super Bowl and the 49ers are moving on. Why is it ok to move on from Jimmy G but the Giants should at least consider high upside QBs?
It's possible, if not probable, that the Giants coaches consider Jones a high upside QB while SF feels that Jimmy G has been around long enough to have plateaued.
He's not. he has limited talent. The nightmare scenario is that he is good enough to sneak us into the playoffs but never great enough to win Super Bowls. And we wait years to figure it out while other teams aggressively pursue elite options, like the 9'ers.
The fucking give Judge a call and let him know that he's wrong before Thursday night, for God's sake.
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They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
Would you trust a rookie quarterback with our offensive line, particularly at guard?
No less than I would trust Jones, whose pocket presence is atrocious.
We are acting like we have an established, trusted veteran at QB. We do not. We have a young guy with a limited ceiling we all hope finally gets his shit together.
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putting up college stats to show which players are definitively better?? Why not just pick the top statistical leaders and build a winning team, then?
By the way - put up Haskins stats vs Fields. and then tell us that one of them is definitively better than the other.
Asinine. Let's just draft Houston, Hawaii, and Texas Tech QBs every year!
We should draft a guy like Ron Dayne.....
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In comment 15236011 Producer said:
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In comment 15236002 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15235996 Producer said:
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In comment 15235994 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15235985 Go Terps said:
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They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
We know what he has shown versus NFL defenses and the coaching staff has a year of experience knowing what he can and can't do so we can tailor an O in 2021 to his strengths with an offseason to implement it. If Fields and Lance only end up being like Haskins and J.P. Losman we are in a WORSE situation because we have a worse QB and have squandered draft capital that could have been used to select someone that would have made the Giants better. I have seen nothing from Jones so far that he can be a better QB than the sum of the parts around him, which concerns me, but the only QB who appears to be that in this draft is Trevor Lawrence. Unless he gets caught being photographed with a gas mask he is not falling to 11.
Jones 11/10 TD/INT. nuff said. it can scarcely get worse than that.
Jones 24/12 TD/INT. Maybe the problem is Garrett not Jones and putting Kitchens more involved in offense design and gameplanning will improve Jones.
put it this way.. Jimmy G is less than 2 years removed from a Super Bowl and the 49ers are moving on. Why is it ok to move on from Jimmy G but the Giants should at least consider high upside QBs?
It's possible, if not probable, that the Giants coaches consider Jones a high upside QB while SF feels that Jimmy G has been around long enough to have plateaued.
He's not. he has limited talent. The nightmare scenario is that he is good enough to sneak us into the playoffs but never great enough to win Super Bowls. And we wait years to figure it out while other teams aggressively pursue elite options, like the 9'ers.
Actually the worst case scenarios would be either (1) paying him like he is an elite QB or (2) failing to draft someone who can really help this team when we have the opportunity to do so because we are obssessing over one position rather than going BPA and then the player we draft ends up worse than the devil we know
What qualifications do you have to make those statements and continue to say them on every thread, yet tell us that other QB's have much more potential?
You continue to prove time and again that the book is closed on Jones and it sounds more and more idiotic because it is forced into every discussion.
Even already had a 11TD/!0INT reference. That's fresh material.
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In comment 15236020 Bill L said:
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In comment 15236011 Producer said:
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In comment 15236002 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15235996 Producer said:
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In comment 15235994 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15235985 Go Terps said:
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The fucking give Judge a call and let him know that he's wrong before Thursday night, for God's sake.
haha.. if only..
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In comment 15235532 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15235509 Producer said:
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In comment 15235501 GFAN52 said:
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he needs an impact player that will help push the Giants to at least a winning record if not the playoffs. No way possible he would draft a QB this year.
right.. and a high upside QB is not an impact player in the NFL.
We couldn't draft Mahomes bc Eli needed a high impact player. We couldn't draft Allen bc Barkley was the best player in the draft. We couldn't draft Herbert bc Jones...
Yea lots of reasons not to draft great QBs.
If a great QB is there like Lawrence then absolutely the Giants should go in that direction. No other QB in this draft has both (1) more upside than Jones and (2) a floor that is higher than what Jones has shown so far. Fields and Lance could end up like Haskins or J.P. Losman which would be downgrades from Jones.
Both Lance and Fields have higher upside than Daniel Jones. If you offered Jones for any of the first 10 picks of the draft, you would be rebuffed. The league views it that way as well.
You sir, are an idiot.
Wow, great rebuttal. Did you work all day on that? How many rookie QB's have an impact in their first season?
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There is no evidence anywhere related to Judge's feelings about Jones.
That's bullshit.
Well, you kind of really don't know...you know?
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In comment 15235965 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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putting up college stats to show which players are definitively better?? Why not just pick the top statistical leaders and build a winning team, then?
By the way - put up Haskins stats vs Fields. and then tell us that one of them is definitively better than the other.
Asinine. Let's just draft Houston, Hawaii, and Texas Tech QBs every year!
We should draft a guy like Ron Dayne.....
Yeah, that pick really taught me a lesson. I was telling my kids the day after... we needed a runner and by god we picked the biggest baddest running back from college, a guy who put up more yards than any college running back in history...
How did that work out?
College stats are nice, but only part of the picture. You have to identify the guy who can excel in the league, and on your specific team. That's not quite the same thing as pure college production, is it.
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In comment 15236023 Go Terps said:
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There is no evidence anywhere related to Judge's feelings about Jones.
That's bullshit.
Well, you kind of really don't know...you know?
I do. I have multiple unsolicited statements. That would be first-hand testimony.
Based on two years of Daniel Jones, I think the comments above in bold are especially true. Jones should not preclude the Giants from drafting a QB with higher upside such as Fields or Lance. The issue for me is, the Giants are picking #11, and it’s unlikely any of those guys will be in play. If the Giants were drafting top 5, that would be a different story.
I agree strongly with Sy’s last line, so if the Giants had an opportunity to draft a QB with significant upside, they should do it. The opportunity isn’t there though likely. I’m not mortgaging a future 1st for Fields or Lance personally.
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In comment 15235985 Go Terps said:
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They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
Would you trust a rookie quarterback with our offensive line, particularly at guard?
No less than I would trust Jones, whose pocket presence is atrocious.
We are acting like we have an established, trusted veteran at QB. We do not. We have a young guy with a limited ceiling we all hope finally gets his shit together.
Did I say we have an established, trusted veteran at QB? Point is, we're still building a team. We have a smaller amount of picks and quite a few holes on the roster, how many of those are you willing to squander to trade up for a quarterback if they don't drop? Would you have quarterbacks like Phil Simms or Eli Manning kicked to the curb because they didn't reach their peak in two years? Simms in particular didn't have good stats in college; he threw more interceptions than touchdowns and never even played in a bowl game, then he took five or six years before he really developed. Eli was still inconsistent entering year 4 and there was plenty of talk of cutting him until the end of the year. If he wasn't to your liking in 2006 or 2007, who would you have tried to draft that year? For 2006: Vince Young? Matt Leinart? For 2007: Jamarcus Russell? Brady Quinn?
How many times have the giants taken LB's with great college production or guys who amassed stats and they can't come close to that in the NFL. It's the same with every team.
But yet, we have people on this thread throwing college stats around as if it cements some prospects as being better.
Put it a different way. What evidence would refute that? What else is on the table at all other than the man's word?
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In comment 15235985 Go Terps said:
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They're both better athlete with stronger arms than Jones. They both have more impressive college resumes. Both would reset the rookie QB contract clock.
So what is better about Jones than either Fields or Lance?
Would you trust a rookie quarterback with our offensive line, particularly at guard?
No less than I would trust Jones, whose pocket presence is atrocious.
We are acting like we have an established, trusted veteran at QB. We do not. We have a young guy with a limited ceiling we all hope finally gets his shit together.
Angel - where did you really think that question was going?
Are we playing the game of making wild asses assumptions now??
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could change by Week 4 if the team's record is 0-4...
Put it a different way. What evidence would refute that? What else is on the table at all other than the man's word?
I am not refuting it. Just saying you do not really know...you know?
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that his fate is not tied to Jones. So he has agreed to play out the Jones scenario, and he will get to choose the next guy.
Are we playing the game of making wild asses assumptions now??
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As for this class, none of these guys should be in play at #6 in my opinion. I think Haskins and Jones stand out as the two guys I could see evolving into “franchise QBs” in the same sentence as someone like Mitch Trubisky, but we aren’t talking elite level guys. It really depends on what you want out of drafting a first round QB. DO you want someone who is simply “good enough” or do you want a guy who is going to take over games and be THE guy for a decade-plus? With where the Giants are now, I personally prefer to use the early picks on building a better team around Eli Manning and come back to the QB situation again in a year because I think you will always be able to find QB prospects with this kind of upside that Jones, Haskins, Lock…etc.
Based on two years of Daniel Jones, I think the comments above in bold are especially true. Jones should not preclude the Giants from drafting a QB with higher upside such as Fields or Lance. The issue for me is, the Giants are picking #11, and it’s unlikely any of those guys will be in play. If the Giants were drafting top 5, that would be a different story.
I agree strongly with Sy’s last line, so if the Giants had an opportunity to draft a QB with significant upside, they should do it. The opportunity isn’t there though likely. I’m not mortgaging a future 1st for Fields or Lance personally.
Even if Fields or Lance fall to 11 I would still pass. Upside is one thing, but each have concerns that could significantly prevent them from ever reaching their upside. The two surest bet QB's in this draft are Lawrence and Mac Jones. The former definitely won't be available and the latter is a good QB, but more like Kirk Cousins upside, and that is the type that can be easily overpaid and put you in "QB Hell."
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In comment 15236065 Jimmy Googs said:
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could change by Week 4 if the team's record is 0-4...
Put it a different way. What evidence would refute that? What else is on the table at all other than the man's word?
I am not refuting it. Just saying you do not really know...you know?
It's a terrible world then where the first go to is that the guy we supposedly like (as our favorite team's coach) is a born liar.
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that his fate is not tied to Jones. So he has agreed to play out the Jones scenario, and he will get to choose the next guy.
Are we playing the game of making wild asses assumptions now??
yes i am making a guess. I admit it. If you think Judge is all-in on Jones, you are making a guess. The difference is, I admit I am guessing (I literally stated it) and you don't. Stop being a fucking coward.
What qualifications do you have to make those statements and continue to say them on every thread, yet tell us that other QB's have much more potential?
You continue to prove time and again that the book is closed on Jones and it sounds more and more idiotic because it is forced into every discussion.
Even already had a 11TD/!0INT reference. That's fresh material.
This is what drives me nuts. Like it's set in stone, after that ridiculous situation in his second year. But that's an "excuse". Newsflash, Mahomes and Rogers are maybe throwing 25 TDs with what we were trotting out there. Doubt they would have done too much better as second year player in a new offense. I've seen a ton of growth from DJ last year, including what they were trying to accomplish with him very early. Of course that looks ugly, whenever you need to change how you process things and tweak stuff, it gets uglier before it gets better and you need reps.
Is it a guarantee he puts it together? No, of course not, but I think it's a helluva lot closer than to what some people here are giving him. And they are speaking in absolutes, so I imagine the goalposts will move to a 3rd year QB in maybe an above average offense as it stands now, didn't finish top 5 statistically across the board. On a team where running the ball is clearly going to be the focus. Where this offense finishes in things like points per drive is more indicative of what DJ is, than his stats will be. With how our offensive line is constructed, we are going to be run first in the redzone. And we should be with a back like Saquon and a dual threat in DJ. PA to Rudolph and let KG try to win some one v one battles occasionaly.
You know what happens when you assume...
Far more likely is that Judge does like Jones but he his not fond of Jason Garrett who was foisted on him (Judge's choice would have been Freddie Kitchens, but Nick Saban probably convinced Judge that Garrett was passable enough not to risk Giants job) as his public comments of Garrett have been lukewarm at best and he didn't waste time firing Marc Colombo. On the other hand, Judge has offered unsolicited praise of Daniel Jones.
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In comment 15236071 Producer said:
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that his fate is not tied to Jones. So he has agreed to play out the Jones scenario, and he will get to choose the next guy.
Are we playing the game of making wild asses assumptions now??
yes i am making a guess. I admit it. If you think Judge is all-in on Jones, you are making a guess. The difference is, I admit I am guessing (I literally stated it) and you don't. Stop being a fucking coward.
A fucking coward?? Fuck off.
My take is that Judge wants to win. He's not in the business of keeping players he thinks are terrible around. He's here to win and to do that he's building a culture and a system capable of doing that. I'm not making wild-assed assumptions about motivations and trying to pas them off.
But then again, in the past few days you've bullshitted up mock drafts where you forced trades and claimed that there are teams who will NEVER pick a RB in the early rounds. Making up shit seems like your jam.
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why do we continually hear that Jones has limited upside and limited ability from certain posters?
What qualifications do you have to make those statements and continue to say them on every thread, yet tell us that other QB's have much more potential?
You continue to prove time and again that the book is closed on Jones and it sounds more and more idiotic because it is forced into every discussion.
Even already had a 11TD/!0INT reference. That's fresh material.
This is what drives me nuts. Like it's set in stone, after that ridiculous situation in his second year. But that's an "excuse". Newsflash, Mahomes and Rogers are maybe throwing 25 TDs with what we were trotting out there. Doubt they would have done too much better as second year player in a new offense. I've seen a ton of growth from DJ last year, including what they were trying to accomplish with him very early. Of course that looks ugly, whenever you need to change how you process things and tweak stuff, it gets uglier before it gets better and you need reps.
Is it a guarantee he puts it together? No, of course not, but I think it's a helluva lot closer than to what some people here are giving him. And they are speaking in absolutes, so I imagine the goalposts will move to a 3rd year QB in maybe an above average offense as it stands now, didn't finish top 5 statistically across the board. On a team where running the ball is clearly going to be the focus. Where this offense finishes in things like points per drive is more indicative of what DJ is, than his stats will be. With how our offensive line is constructed, we are going to be run first in the redzone. And we should be with a back like Saquon and a dual threat in DJ. PA to Rudolph and let KG try to win some one v one battles occasionaly.
The difference btwn Mahomes/Rodgers and Jones is they have fucking talent that shows up on tape. As Cosell would say. nobody will mistake Jones for Mahomes. Jones doesn't have the talent, whether his supporting cast is good or not,
Jones is not going to have a better supporting cast in 2021 and suddenly start throwing lasers and making amazing off-platform, second reaction plays. The tape shows what Jones is. It doesn't mean he can't win games in the NFL. But elite? Likely, not happening.
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In comment 15236074 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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In comment 15236071 Producer said:
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that his fate is not tied to Jones. So he has agreed to play out the Jones scenario, and he will get to choose the next guy.
Are we playing the game of making wild asses assumptions now??
yes i am making a guess. I admit it. If you think Judge is all-in on Jones, you are making a guess. The difference is, I admit I am guessing (I literally stated it) and you don't. Stop being a fucking coward.
A fucking coward?? Fuck off.
My take is that Judge wants to win. He's not in the business of keeping players he thinks are terrible around. He's here to win and to do that he's building a culture and a system capable of doing that. I'm not making wild-assed assumptions about motivations and trying to pas them off.
But then again, in the past few days you've bullshitted up mock drafts where you forced trades and claimed that there are teams who will NEVER pick a RB in the early rounds. Making up shit seems like your jam.
I agree Judge wants to win. I don't know that he has the power yet to move on from Jones, and you don't know either.
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In comment 15236070 Bill L said:
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In comment 15236065 Jimmy Googs said:
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could change by Week 4 if the team's record is 0-4...
Put it a different way. What evidence would refute that? What else is on the table at all other than the man's word?
I am not refuting it. Just saying you do not really know...you know?
It's a terrible world then where the first go to is that the guy we supposedly like (as our favorite team's coach) is a born liar.
Wouldn't suggest he is a born liar. That exaggeration to make your point is silly.
Just suggesting Judge saying Jones is "his guy" publicly only matter right up until the point he isn't his guy. The former isn't a lie.
What qualifications do you have to make those statements and continue to say them on every thread, yet tell us that other QB's have much more potential?
You continue to prove time and again that the book is closed on Jones and it sounds more and more idiotic because it is forced into every discussion.
Even already had a 11TD/!0INT reference. That's fresh material.
Let me guess - we should genuflect and defer to the "experts" at One Giants Way because they have done such a stellar job the last decade and most recently under hero Dave Gettleman...JFC.
Yeah its really difficult stuff. And by the way you don't talk football chucklehead, you just look to berate others views for no reason.
This thread is a prime example...any thread is a prime example.
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In comment 15236070 Bill L said:
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In comment 15236065 Jimmy Googs said:
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could change by Week 4 if the team's record is 0-4...
Put it a different way. What evidence would refute that? What else is on the table at all other than the man's word?
I am not refuting it. Just saying you do not really know...you know?
It's a terrible world then where the first go to is that the guy we supposedly like (as our favorite team's coach) is a born liar.
Liar? Who is calling Judge a liar? A coach not giving his actual feelings, isn't lying. It's pretty much part of the job. It is fairly puritanical to call coach-speak, lying.
If Kyle Trask or Davis Mills falls to Day 3 I would not rule out drafting a QB (a la Ryan Nassib pick)
It sounds like we have to defer to "they're the professionals and they know better than us".
The last citadel of the defenders of the faith.
It sounds like we have to defer to "they're the professionals and they know better than us".
The last citadel of the defenders of the faith.
The problem is numerous QB's before have had traits and great college statistics and still failed at the NFL level. Ryan Leaf had a better AY/A, Y/A and comparable TD/INT to Peyton Manning in 1997 despite Leaf being a Junior and Manning a Senior. Leaf, by all accounts was more athletic and had the stronger arm. Who was the better QB in the NFL?
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In comment 15236048 FatMan in Charlotte said:
This is what drives me nuts. Like it's set in stone, after that ridiculous situation in his second year. But that's an "excuse". Newsflash, Mahomes and Rogers are maybe throwing 25 TDs with what we were trotting out there. Doubt they would have done too much better as second year player in a new offense. I've seen a ton of growth from DJ last year, including what they were trying to accomplish with him very early. Of course that looks ugly, whenever you need to change how you process things and tweak stuff, it gets uglier before it gets better and you need reps.
Jones is not going to have a better supporting cast in 2021 and suddenly start throwing lasers and making amazing off-platform, second reaction plays. The tape shows what Jones is. It doesn't mean he can't win games in the NFL. But elite? Likely, not happening.
If your plan is to wait on an elite QB to come around, there's a reason for that word. They come around every 5 years or so. Not everyone can be elite. How does the elite list stand right now? Mahomes, Rogers, and maybe Allen will make the jump(I believe he will). Unlike you, when I see DJ, there are certain things there, that I believe he can be in that top 3-8 group.
One thing I never see get mentioned is his out and out speed (fastest QB in NFL last year). Now that we have Barkley coming back it's going to force a lot of teams into man. And now that we have legit talent as pass catchers, it gets the defense to turn its back. We are going to see some very big chunk plays from the pass game coming from DJs legs. Teams will be forced to spy with an athletic LB, which opens thing up for Engram. He has plus attributes, aptitude for deep ball, great ball placement, and fearless attitude. The pocket presence got better, and he got much stronger with ball. Another year in weight room (and from what we heard put on another few lbs of muscle) those balls that were squibling out are going to be held onto.
It sounds like we have to defer to "they're the professionals and they know better than us".
The last citadel of the defenders of the faith.
That's Deep. :-)
Btw - somewhere in there is the whole "wait and see" mantra. But fmic would know for certain as he runs those defender meetings...
I would argue that we are not in "QB Hell" yet because we can get out of Jones's contract easily if a better option presented itself especially since, if he struggles in 2021, you just don't exercise 5th year option and if he does well you exercise it at a cost below market value if he does develop. "QB Hell" would be what Minneosta is in with Kirk Cousins where you are paying top dollar on an uncuttable contract for a QB who is not going to get you over the hump. To me "QB Hell" is a combination of the QB being too good to put you in draft position for a replacement and too expensive to get rid of.
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In comment 15236085 Zeke's Alibi said:
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In comment 15236048 FatMan in Charlotte said:
This is what drives me nuts. Like it's set in stone, after that ridiculous situation in his second year. But that's an "excuse". Newsflash, Mahomes and Rogers are maybe throwing 25 TDs with what we were trotting out there. Doubt they would have done too much better as second year player in a new offense. I've seen a ton of growth from DJ last year, including what they were trying to accomplish with him very early. Of course that looks ugly, whenever you need to change how you process things and tweak stuff, it gets uglier before it gets better and you need reps.
Jones is not going to have a better supporting cast in 2021 and suddenly start throwing lasers and making amazing off-platform, second reaction plays. The tape shows what Jones is. It doesn't mean he can't win games in the NFL. But elite? Likely, not happening.
If your plan is to wait on an elite QB to come around, there's a reason for that word. They come around every 5 years or so. Not everyone can be elite. How does the elite list stand right now? Mahomes, Rogers, and maybe Allen will make the jump(I believe he will). Unlike you, when I see DJ, there are certain things there, that I believe he can be in that top 3-8 group.
One thing I never see get mentioned is his out and out speed (fastest QB in NFL last year). Now that we have Barkley coming back it's going to force a lot of teams into man. And now that we have legit talent as pass catchers, it gets the defense to turn its back. We are going to see some very big chunk plays from the pass game coming from DJs legs. Teams will be forced to spy with an athletic LB, which opens thing up for Engram. He has plus attributes, aptitude for deep ball, great ball placement, and fearless attitude. The pocket presence got better, and he got much stronger with ball. Another year in weight room (and from what we heard put on another few lbs of muscle) those balls that were squibling out are going to be held onto.
not true.. there are 6 to 8 QBs in that category any given season. And if you are not looking to nab one, you won't get one.
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If you can't point to college production and you can't point to the scouting reports from numerous sources describing the traits that Jones, Fields, and Lance possess...then what source can we point to that would tell us Jones is their better or equal?
It sounds like we have to defer to "they're the professionals and they know better than us".
The last citadel of the defenders of the faith.
The problem is numerous QB's before have had traits and great college statistics and still failed at the NFL level. Ryan Leaf had a better AY/A, Y/A and comparable TD/INT to Peyton Manning in 1997 despite Leaf being a Junior and Manning a Senior. Leaf, by all accounts was more athletic and had the stronger arm. Who was the better QB in the NFL?
We're not talking about Leaf and Manning. We're talking about Jones v. Fields and Lance.
You make it seem like fields and Lance are both slam dunks.
The parallel to Leaf and Manning is one that illustrates going on scouting reports and college stats alone doesn't guarantee anything.
Why do you keep acting as if field and Lance are assured to be better than Jones?? Are you clairvoyant now?
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In comment 15236123 Go Terps said:
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If you can't point to college production and you can't point to the scouting reports from numerous sources describing the traits that Jones, Fields, and Lance possess...then what source can we point to that would tell us Jones is their better or equal?
It sounds like we have to defer to "they're the professionals and they know better than us".
The last citadel of the defenders of the faith.
The problem is numerous QB's before have had traits and great college statistics and still failed at the NFL level. Ryan Leaf had a better AY/A, Y/A and comparable TD/INT to Peyton Manning in 1997 despite Leaf being a Junior and Manning a Senior. Leaf, by all accounts was more athletic and had the stronger arm. Who was the better QB in the NFL?
We're not talking about Leaf and Manning. We're talking about Jones v. Fields and Lance.
You asked about comparisons and college stats and someone gave you an example. Stop moving the goalposts.
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In comment 15236123 Go Terps said:
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If you can't point to college production and you can't point to the scouting reports from numerous sources describing the traits that Jones, Fields, and Lance possess...then what source can we point to that would tell us Jones is their better or equal?
It sounds like we have to defer to "they're the professionals and they know better than us".
The last citadel of the defenders of the faith.
The problem is numerous QB's before have had traits and great college statistics and still failed at the NFL level. Ryan Leaf had a better AY/A, Y/A and comparable TD/INT to Peyton Manning in 1997 despite Leaf being a Junior and Manning a Senior. Leaf, by all accounts was more athletic and had the stronger arm. Who was the better QB in the NFL?
We're not talking about Leaf and Manning. We're talking about Jones v. Fields and Lance.
Your thesis that college performance guarantees nfl success.
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In comment 15236123 Go Terps said:
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If you can't point to college production and you can't point to the scouting reports from numerous sources describing the traits that Jones, Fields, and Lance possess...then what source can we point to that would tell us Jones is their better or equal?
It sounds like we have to defer to "they're the professionals and they know better than us".
The last citadel of the defenders of the faith.
The problem is numerous QB's before have had traits and great college statistics and still failed at the NFL level. Ryan Leaf had a better AY/A, Y/A and comparable TD/INT to Peyton Manning in 1997 despite Leaf being a Junior and Manning a Senior. Leaf, by all accounts was more athletic and had the stronger arm. Who was the better QB in the NFL?
We're not talking about Leaf and Manning. We're talking about Jones v. Fields and Lance.
To me both Fields and Lance need a minimum of one year on the bench if they are going to reach their potential so you are burning one year of the rookie scale on a guy who will be inactive most of the year. When Fields faced more complex schemes he struggled. That is nothing compared to what he will face in the NFL. Lance never faced anything exotic because his team was so much better than everyone he went up against that FCS schools lacked personnel to match up. You were the one who mentioned statistics and physical traits and I am saying that those are not the be all and end all of what makes a great NFL QB otherwise Leaf would have been the HOFer not Manning.
Jones regressed last year because Jones regressed last year. No more excuses.
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In comment 15236136 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15236123 Go Terps said:
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If you can't point to college production and you can't point to the scouting reports from numerous sources describing the traits that Jones, Fields, and Lance possess...then what source can we point to that would tell us Jones is their better or equal?
It sounds like we have to defer to "they're the professionals and they know better than us".
The last citadel of the defenders of the faith.
The problem is numerous QB's before have had traits and great college statistics and still failed at the NFL level. Ryan Leaf had a better AY/A, Y/A and comparable TD/INT to Peyton Manning in 1997 despite Leaf being a Junior and Manning a Senior. Leaf, by all accounts was more athletic and had the stronger arm. Who was the better QB in the NFL?
We're not talking about Leaf and Manning. We're talking about Jones v. Fields and Lance.
To me both Fields and Lance need a minimum of one year on the bench if they are going to reach their potential so you are burning one year of the rookie scale on a guy who will be inactive most of the year. When Fields faced more complex schemes he struggled. That is nothing compared to what he will face in the NFL. Lance never faced anything exotic because his team was so much better than everyone he went up against that FCS schools lacked personnel to match up. You were the one who mentioned statistics and physical traits and I am saying that those are not the be all and end all of what makes a great NFL QB otherwise Leaf would have been the HOFer not Manning.
Lance, yes. But Fields could and probably should, start at some point this season.
I think Mond has an outside shot of things go south and would at least be a mobile (read Jones-like) backup.
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It sounds like we have to defer to "they're the professionals and they know better than us". The last citadel of the defenders of the faith.
Well...aren't they professionals who know better than us? Do you seriously think you know better than Gettleman and Judge and the Giants coaches and scouting department with all the resources of the NFL at their disposal? Time to let go of your delusions!
All those posters that ripped into Marc Ross a week or so ago for being a moron in our Front Office must have the same delusions...
Why do you keep acting as if field and Lance are assured to be better than Jones?? Are you clairvoyant now?
Is that the position being taken? My view is Fields and Lance are more gifted physically and have had more success in college. So that makes them much more attractive and with potentially more upside than Jones.
In an honest moment, I can't imagine you feel great moving forward with Jones.
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the fucking difference?
Why do you keep acting as if field and Lance are assured to be better than Jones?? Are you clairvoyant now?
Is that the position being taken? My view is Fields and Lance are more gifted physically and have had more success in college. So that makes them much more attractive and with potentially more upside than Jones.
In an honest moment, I can't imagine you feel great moving forward with Jones.
I don’t feel great going forward with Jones, but I also don’t feel a QB who will be there at 11 plus unknown future pick and figuring out what to do with Jones is better than keeping Jones to see if there is enough improvement, addressing other issues on this team, and if Jones doesn’t progress getting a QB in a future draft.
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My view is Fields and Lance are more gifted physically and have had more success in college. So that makes them much more attractive and with potentially more upside than Jones. In an honest moment, I can't imagine you feel great moving forward with Jones.
I can't speak for the FatMan but I can tell you that I honestly feel better moving ahead with Jones and a draft pick than spending that pick on either Fields or Lance. If the Giants had the first pick I would spend it on Lawrence, but other than that, I prefer to stick with Jones than roll the dice. Honestly.
Fair enough, but I just can't get there. I see four guys in this draft more advanced than Jones.
Just out of curiosity, if Jones was in this draft, and just based on his performances at Duke, would you still feel the same way?
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the fucking difference?
Why do you keep acting as if field and Lance are assured to be better than Jones?? Are you clairvoyant now?
Is that the position being taken? My view is Fields and Lance are more gifted physically and have had more success in college. So that makes them much more attractive and with potentially more upside than Jones.
This is the essence of it. There is also the third positive element of resetting the QB rookie contract clock.
Not just his performance at Duke; we also have the benefit of seeing him for two years in the pros, and we know it's been subpar.
The total value for #11 is $17.9M this year. The total value of Jones's contract was basically $26M.
I shouldn't be, but I am pretty amazed how many would still stick with Jones using this hypothetical. You really have to have some sparkling, rose tinted glasses to be convinced he's shown enough to date.
I bet some would stick with Jones over Lawrence. ;)