I’d rather the Giants draft a WR who doesn’t need technique help.
I just personally don’t like the philosophy of scheming around things. I prefer guys who don’t need to learn the craft at the NFL level.
I agree with this sentiment, though I'm not entirely sure where his route tree development is. He clearly had a break out year and got better as it went along. He performed well at the senior bowl. Devonta Smith was running pro routes in high school, he's not that and I think most would unanimously prefer that skill. That's why PHI traded up for him and why NYG traded back after he got picked.
Everyone always wants a trade down but when it happens inevitably the player you get is going to have a few more warts.
I know you wanted Paye, that’s what I was expecting too at the time of the pick. Hopefully this was the right call.
A first round pick next year is great regardless though.
I wanted everybody. Lol. But I preferred to get the playmaker out of the way. I wasnt wildly wild about Paye, I just felt he was the most feasible EDGE who cpuld learn what he doesnt know. Plus we had a decent pass rush that we manufacturee a pretty good pass rush last year.
I wanted a Guard too, but as was mentioned, there is plenty of those in 2nd and 3rd.
What I really wanted and feel like we got was a guy Ds cant match up with with another great player. I think we got that in Toney.
I’d rather the Giants draft a WR who doesn’t need technique help.
I just personally don’t like the philosophy of scheming around things. I prefer guys who don’t need to learn the craft at the NFL level.
This is why I thought they’d go Moore or Bateman. More natural typical WRs. They wanted a little spice though.
It kind of makes me more confident that Garrett will be forced to be more creative, especially since there are about a dozen offensive coaches now behind Kitchens.
character is a complex concept. We are talking behavior and being a
football player, not a saint. having a brain for “good” behavior so you don’t tuck a pistol into your swear pants and go into a bar in NYC, that kind of behavior.
God blessed this young man with an abundance of quick twitch muscles and the neural connections to see a football field correctly and play. he seems to play hard. Some one needs to convince him not to waste what God has blessed him with. Sounds easy? it’s not but this is where coaching and teammates come in. It’s no longer an LT league, so need to show/develop some self restraint.
We’ll see if he can be convinced, coerced, bribed, get faith to act responsibly so he can use his talent. Someone told Judge he was a risk worth taking.
I’m very curious and hopeful it works out for Toney and we relish him and the Giants in the near future.
^ I definitely don’t know enough about Toney’s development at the position. I was responding to a post furthering up about him learning on the job, and the team finding ways to get him the ball. I sure hope the way to get him the ball is the normal offense. I hate the thought of having to work around a player’s weaknesses to get to his strengths.
^ I definitely don’t know enough about Toney’s development at the position. I was responding to a post furthering up about him learning on the job, and the team finding ways to get him the ball. I sure hope the way to get him the ball is the normal offense. I hate the thought of having to work around a player’s weaknesses to get to his strengths.
He’s a unique player who, worst comes to worst, might need to be schemed to succeed. Your concern is the “the” concern imo. But his skillset also isn’t the typical skillset of an NFL WR, his lateral cutting is in a different league. If he can learn how to run NFL caliber routes while taking advantage of that skill, we’ll all be drooling over him. Huge if though.
^ I definitely don’t know enough about Toney’s development at the position. I was responding to a post furthering up about him learning on the job, and the team finding ways to get him the ball. I sure hope the way to get him the ball is the normal offense. I hate the thought of having to work around a player’s weaknesses to get to his strengths.
Agreed - just saying that he's not like Curtis Samuel who had more rush attempts than receptions in college (and a low ypc). Or Percy Harvin who also had more rushes than receptions. Toney got most of his touches as a receiver and his 14 ypc is perfectly acceptable. Against Bama he did damage all over the field.
The raw tools are there and he was highly productive this past year. He's just not nearly as polished as Devonta Smith. And not quite the vertical player Waddle is. But there are lots of different types of effective WRs.
Ironically from the convo about the 2018 draft earlier today, the most recent draft pick he reminds me of is DJ Moore who similarly plays like a RB with the ball in his hands. Moore was drafted #24 and was thought of as a bit of a late riser into the first round. They timed similarly and have similar stat profiles. I'd sign for that level outcome here and think it's a realistic possibility.
^ I definitely don’t know enough about Toney’s development at the position. I was responding to a post furthering up about him learning on the job, and the team finding ways to get him the ball. I sure hope the way to get him the ball is the normal offense. I hate the thought of having to work around a player’s weaknesses to get to his strengths.
Agreed - just saying that he's not like Curtis Samuel who had more rush attempts than receptions in college (and a low ypc). Or Percy Harvin who also had more rushes than receptions. Toney got most of his touches as a receiver and his 14 ypc is perfectly acceptable. Against Bama he did damage all over the field.
The raw tools are there and he was highly productive this past year. He's just not nearly as polished as Devonta Smith. And not quite the vertical player Waddle is. But there are lots of different types of effective WRs.
Ironically from the convo about the 2018 draft earlier today, the most recent draft pick he reminds me of is DJ Moore who similarly plays like a RB with the ball in his hands. Moore was drafted #24 and was thought of as a bit of a late riser into the first round. They timed similarly and have similar stat profiles. I'd sign for that level outcome here and think it's a realistic possibility.
his explosion, especially out of cuts, is terrific. Giants need dynamic players at WR. This guy has a chance to be that.
He should be able to step right in and play the slot.
Shep is likely gone after this season. Hopefully Slayton develops into a reliable outside weapon and he, Golladay and Toney are a great group.
It is incredibly important to have weapons this year for Jones. Hopefully the answer to the "is Jones a franchise quarterback" is answered with a yes after the 2021 season, but even if it's a no the most important thing is it's answered one way or the other. This guy should start from day 1 out of the slot and be able to make plays.
If Jones can't show he's a franchise QB this year with the weapons they now have, then they need to look for another QB next off-season
I'm talking about the 2020 NFL version of Samuel and what he brings to a football team. Toney brings the same skills.
Christian was talking about projecting a player from CFB to NFL whose role is uncertain. My point is that Toney isn't a guy who split time at 2 positions, he played WR and this past year he did it very well. They may not need to be "creative" with him for him to be effective (though surely it could be helpful to use any player creatively with motion and alignment). I agree with the comp to the player Curtis Samuel was this past year.
it looks like Dante Hall. DJ Moore is a bigger player and like you said doesn't have that kind of agility. He does run with the same kind of aggression finishing plays after the catch. And also seems to similarly excel on underneath routes that allow him to run after the catch as opposed to vertical routes.
it looks like Dante Hall. DJ Moore is a bigger player and like you said doesn't have that kind of agility. He does run with the same kind of aggression finishing plays after the catch. And also seems to similarly excel on underneath routes that allow him to run after the catch as opposed to vertical routes.
I just don’t think there’s a single active player you can compare him to. He’s so one of a kind. Dante Hall for that one year was special as a returner. That’s a legit comparison in terms of movement but Toney was doing it as a WR. His route running and catching skills need to improve no doubt. But he has other skills that could make those route running skills otherworldly.
I think it's important to consider the multiplier effect the Toney pic
I never thought Toney would be a consideration because of the character stuff. But if Judge feels comfortable, that's great. There really hasn't been any problems with him for off the field stuff the last couple of years at least.
So I was really rooting for Waddle, and Smith as a fall back.
Toney isn't as fast as Waddle, but faster than Smith. But he isn't as good a route runner as Smith. That said, he has traits, kind of a combo of both receivers. He has good hand size at 9.5" which is something I always look for in receivers.
He is a really explosive athlete. Skinner/Talking Giants has a good breakdown on him.
He creates a LOT of separation. He had a big game vs Alabama, so against the top competition. He's going to create separation in the NFL, and he does it with his speed. He also has really good releases. Lots of broken tackles, his catch percentage as noted, and he gets plenty of downfield balls and wins. Leaps about 40" as noted.
The Giants might not have lost anything in terms of the quality of receiver they got after missing out on Waddle and Smith. He's going to make big plays and is the exact kind of complement I was hoping for across from Golladay.
He knows how to set corners up to get open. This is a TD threat with the ball in his hands. I think when you consider that you're getting a dangerous weapon still at 20, and you got an extra 5th this year, and a 1st and 4th next year, especially given that 1st can be a really high first, I really like it.
There's still a lot of good players on the board for 42, also. Surprising pick but it wouldn't surprise me to see him have huge success in the NFL. He has some OBJ to his game.
This is the kind of player that will command respect for his speed. He will help prevent those loaded boxes.
I think this is a player that's going to really help the Giants offense. And I think Toney can play outside, I really do. I know he was primarily a slot at UF, and surely he'll get reps there with the Giants. You don't have to use a lot of imagination to see what he can bring to this offense, and it was an element of the offense that the Giants were missing.
The 2nd play is awesome. This guy just does not seem to go down on 1st contact. The way he just bounces off of dudes and keeps going is just awesome. Amazing contact balance, or whatever the hell you call that More Highlights - ( New Window )
The key to the Toney pick: he has a lot of upside potential
We took a flyer on a kid who has quickness in the slot that far surpasses Shepard. I see him as our opening day punt returner and he'll be worked into the offense more and more as the season progresses.
The key is whether he will be that 90-1100-10 slot type guy who moves the chains and EXPLODES for some big plays when teams get lax.
Galloday, Toney, Slayton and Barkley are all Home Run threats. I am wondering now if in the 2nd we don't draft an OL (interior) to compete with both Lemiuex and Hernandez. I believe we will do just that.
But the comp I'd put on him, given his cuts, jukes, agility, and return ability...is Antonio Brown. But Toney has more going for him physically and athletically than Brown did coming out.
But the comp I'd put on him, given his cuts, jukes, agility, and return ability...is Antonio Brown. But Toney has more going for him physically and athletically than Brown did coming out.
I’d rather the Giants draft a WR who doesn’t need technique help.
I just personally don’t like the philosophy of scheming around things. I prefer guys who don’t need to learn the craft at the NFL level.
Every player you pick outside the top 5 needs to learn the craft. This isn't realistic. If you want a guy that you pick and don't mess with, then root for top 5 selections.
That’s from a Pro Day. He looks slower than that on tape, more like 4.5-4.6. That doesn’t mean he can’t be a good player, but that quoted 40 time looks deceptive to me.
That’s from a Pro Day. He looks slower than that on tape, more like 4.5-4.6. That doesn’t mean he can’t be a good player, but that quoted 40 time looks deceptive to me.
What tape are you watching? The tape I've seen clearly indicates 4.4 speed, maybe a tic faster. Seriously read any scout write up on him and they highlight his speed.
how Parsons, the best defensive player in this draft, was disqualified, yet and Toney wasn't...
This is the point. Feels very reminiscent of Eli Apple over Laremy Tunsil from a character perspective. Will have to wait and see. Have a feeling Parsons will be a perennial pro bowler and thorn in the Giants side. Toney is another in the long line of reaches. He may turn out to be great but he was properly graded as a second rounder in a very deep WR class because he will be more developmental as a route runner. More of a gadget player with great burst. Bateman, Paye and Darrisaw were much better choices at twenty.
Overall, a net positive day though since the trade was absolutely the right thing to do. Very good chance we will have two top fifteen picks next year...
About a week ago stating that from his sources, the character stuff wasn't as big a concern anymore (to teams), that he had really worked on rehabilitating his image over the last couple of years. Remember, reportedly, he hasn't had any issues since 2018.
Also, Judge has said he's particular about who he lets in the building. This gives me confidence that he is a-ok with Toney the personality and character-wise.
I think I'm gonna trust Judge on this one.
My first thought was that Sy had him as a 3rd rounder
but others liked him alot more. Seems dynamic. Hopefully he's not a screw up off the field and the talent comes through. I really thought Paye was going to be the pick.
That’s from a Pro Day. He looks slower than that on tape, more like 4.5-4.6. That doesn’t mean he can’t be a good player, but that quoted 40 time looks deceptive to me.
His tape shows speed comparable to Shep though he may be better at breaking tackles since he has more wiggle and possibly more burst. The big question though is his ability to get open and attract double coverage. That to me was the real need and why they loved Waddle and Smith since the goal is to try to get single coverage on Golladay. The Giants already have speed - Ross and Slayton are both faster than Toney. If Toney's route running does not become elite, this will have been a bad pick given the opportunity to draft Bateman, Paye and Darrisaw at twenty.
RE: My first thought was that Sy had him as a 3rd rounder
but others liked him alot more. Seems dynamic. Hopefully he's not a screw up off the field and the talent comes through. I really thought Paye was going to be the pick.
I asked lastnight and not sure anyone answered but I’d like to hear how much Sy dinged him for the character concerns. If it’s 3-4 points than that would otherwise put him right up there in the low 80’s.
I don’t think Sy dislikes the player.
RE: RE: My first thought was that Sy had him as a 3rd rounder
but others liked him alot more. Seems dynamic. Hopefully he's not a screw up off the field and the talent comes through. I really thought Paye was going to be the pick.
I asked lastnight and not sure anyone answered but I’d like to hear how much Sy dinged him for the character concerns. If it’s 3-4 points than that would otherwise put him right up there in the low 80’s.
how Parsons, the best defensive player in this draft, was disqualified, yet and Toney wasn't...
This is the point. Feels very reminiscent of Eli Apple over Laremy Tunsil from a character perspective. Will have to wait and see. Have a feeling Parsons will be a perennial pro bowler and thorn in the Giants side. Toney is another in the long line of reaches. He may turn out to be great but he was properly graded as a second rounder in a very deep WR class because he will be more developmental as a route runner. More of a gadget player with great burst. Bateman, Paye and Darrisaw were much better choices at twenty.
Overall, a net positive day though since the trade was absolutely the right thing to do. Very good chance we will have two top fifteen picks next year...
IIRC, one of our asshats mentioned something about Parsons' psychological profile that was a red flag as well. So it's not just character issues, like he hazed a guy in college. We would be in position to know given our Penn State connections. Toney has no such things in his record or history.
I’d rather the Giants draft a WR who doesn’t need technique help.
I just personally don’t like the philosophy of scheming around things. I prefer guys who don’t need to learn the craft at the NFL level.
I’d be more concerned about route running if he wasn’t losing defenders in space consistently. Or was just a vertical guy. This guy just puts DBs in a blender, which is nice.
I’m no scout but take a look at these highlights and especially the plays where he takes a hand off out of the backfield (2 of them). In those plays, he is in a situation where he needs to flat out run to extend the play and that added gear isn’t there.
My hot take is that he has elite quickness but below average speed. He’s a chain mover, which can be very useful. I frankly am not sure I like this pick but it’s likely Toney can help the Giants. I’m interested in seeing how the Giants use him in 3rd down situations. He could be a plus 3rd down back who consistently moves the chains. Toney 2020 highlights - ( New Window )
how Parsons, the best defensive player in this draft, was disqualified, yet and Toney wasn't...
This is the point. Feels very reminiscent of Eli Apple over Laremy Tunsil from a character perspective. Will have to wait and see. Have a feeling Parsons will be a perennial pro bowler and thorn in the Giants side. Toney is another in the long line of reaches. He may turn out to be great but he was properly graded as a second rounder in a very deep WR class because he will be more developmental as a route runner. More of a gadget player with great burst. Bateman, Paye and Darrisaw were much better choices at twenty.
Overall, a net positive day though since the trade was absolutely the right thing to do. Very good chance we will have two top fifteen picks next year...
IIRC, one of our asshats mentioned something about Parsons' psychological profile that was a red flag as well. So it's not just character issues, like he hazed a guy in college. We would be in position to know given our Penn State connections. Toney has no such things in his record or history.
I appreciate the nuance here, but after the Baker disaster, it would have seemed that Toney was the last guy Mara would have wanted... Time will tell.
Disagree. He's more physical than that. He's much more of slot guy than a speed guy.
Samuel is a physical player. A strong runner. So is Toney. Very similar tools and versatility.
This is a really good addition to this offense. Perfect. An explosive slot guy, jet sweeps, quick screens and can run the plays that stretch the field in every way.
KWALL, from the very limited tape I've seen, Toney is not remotely in Samuel's class as a physical, tough to bring down runner. He would just as soon bull over a CB or S as try to juke him. I don't see Toney that way at all, not as strong or powerful. But, early days, hoping for the best.
stuff is coming from...he seems to have good hands. Maybe not great, but does not seem to be an issue based on what I’m seeing. He had 3 drops in 150 targets at Florida
I hope he does well, but more of a second rounder. We needed more and he was on the platter as Sy predicted. I trust in Sy's predictions more than my own.
If we had drafted Smith and he wore # 6 would have considered adding to my jersey collection. Meh on Toney until he proves to be more.
stuff is coming from...he seems to have good hands. Maybe not great, but does not seem to be an issue based on what I’m seeing. He had 3 drops in 150 targets at Florida
He dropped some at the Senior Bowl. I agree, I don't see his hands as a huge issue. One of the things that really stood out about him at the Senior Bowl though was the amount of separation he was getting vs. other WRs. That is an area the Giants have sorely been lacking in.
but he may be the most elusive. He'll be a terrific slot receiver. One who can get open on a consistent basis. I don't think he's as fast as OBJ in his prime, but to play the slot, he doesn't have to be.
stuff is coming from...he seems to have good hands. Maybe not great, but does not seem to be an issue based on what I’m seeing. He had 3 drops in 150 targets at Florida
He dropped some at the Senior Bowl. I agree, I don't see his hands as a huge issue. One of the things that really stood out about him at the Senior Bowl though was the amount of separation he was getting vs. other WRs. That is an area the Giants have sorely been lacking in.
Not to mention the QB's at the Senior Bowl this year were a case study of bad and worse. There is maybe 1 QB from that entire group that will go on Day 2 (Mond) and I am not even sure he threw to Toney.
Disagree. He's more physical than that. He's much more of slot guy than a speed guy.
Samuel is a physical player. A strong runner. So is Toney. Very similar tools and versatility.
This is a really good addition to this offense. Perfect. An explosive slot guy, jet sweeps, quick screens and can run the plays that stretch the field in every way.
KWALL, from the very limited tape I've seen, Toney is not remotely in Samuel's class as a physical, tough to bring down runner. He would just as soon bull over a CB or S as try to juke him. I don't see Toney that way at all, not as strong or powerful. But, early days, hoping for the best.
I think it was against South Carolina that it seemed like 6 defenders were trying to bring down Toney and could not do it
I just personally don’t like the philosophy of scheming around things. I prefer guys who don’t need to learn the craft at the NFL level.
I agree with this sentiment, though I'm not entirely sure where his route tree development is. He clearly had a break out year and got better as it went along. He performed well at the senior bowl. Devonta Smith was running pro routes in high school, he's not that and I think most would unanimously prefer that skill. That's why PHI traded up for him and why NYG traded back after he got picked.
Everyone always wants a trade down but when it happens inevitably the player you get is going to have a few more warts.
A first round pick next year is great regardless though.
I wanted everybody. Lol. But I preferred to get the playmaker out of the way. I wasnt wildly wild about Paye, I just felt he was the most feasible EDGE who cpuld learn what he doesnt know. Plus we had a decent pass rush that we manufacturee a pretty good pass rush last year.
I wanted a Guard too, but as was mentioned, there is plenty of those in 2nd and 3rd.
What I really wanted and feel like we got was a guy Ds cant match up with with another great player. I think we got that in Toney.
I just personally don’t like the philosophy of scheming around things. I prefer guys who don’t need to learn the craft at the NFL level.
This is why I thought they’d go Moore or Bateman. More natural typical WRs. They wanted a little spice though.
It kind of makes me more confident that Garrett will be forced to be more creative, especially since there are about a dozen offensive coaches now behind Kitchens.
God blessed this young man with an abundance of quick twitch muscles and the neural connections to see a football field correctly and play. he seems to play hard. Some one needs to convince him not to waste what God has blessed him with. Sounds easy? it’s not but this is where coaching and teammates come in. It’s no longer an LT league, so need to show/develop some self restraint.
We’ll see if he can be convinced, coerced, bribed, get faith to act responsibly so he can use his talent. Someone told Judge he was a risk worth taking.
I’m very curious and hopeful it works out for Toney and we relish him and the Giants in the near future.
He’s a unique player who, worst comes to worst, might need to be schemed to succeed. Your concern is the “the” concern imo. But his skillset also isn’t the typical skillset of an NFL WR, his lateral cutting is in a different league. If he can learn how to run NFL caliber routes while taking advantage of that skill, we’ll all be drooling over him. Huge if though.
EXCEPT, he's not! And he runs it in for a TD.
Every time I watch this I literally blink my eyes, and I still can't figure out how he did it.
Video: Amazing play at 8 seconds - ( New Window )
Agreed - just saying that he's not like Curtis Samuel who had more rush attempts than receptions in college (and a low ypc). Or Percy Harvin who also had more rushes than receptions. Toney got most of his touches as a receiver and his 14 ypc is perfectly acceptable. Against Bama he did damage all over the field.
The raw tools are there and he was highly productive this past year. He's just not nearly as polished as Devonta Smith. And not quite the vertical player Waddle is. But there are lots of different types of effective WRs.
Ironically from the convo about the 2018 draft earlier today, the most recent draft pick he reminds me of is DJ Moore who similarly plays like a RB with the ball in his hands. Moore was drafted #24 and was thought of as a bit of a late riser into the first round. They timed similarly and have similar stat profiles. I'd sign for that level outcome here and think it's a realistic possibility.
I'm talking about the 2020 NFL version of Samuel and what he brings to a football team. Toney brings the same skills.
Quote:
^ I definitely don’t know enough about Toney’s development at the position. I was responding to a post furthering up about him learning on the job, and the team finding ways to get him the ball. I sure hope the way to get him the ball is the normal offense. I hate the thought of having to work around a player’s weaknesses to get to his strengths.
Agreed - just saying that he's not like Curtis Samuel who had more rush attempts than receptions in college (and a low ypc). Or Percy Harvin who also had more rushes than receptions. Toney got most of his touches as a receiver and his 14 ypc is perfectly acceptable. Against Bama he did damage all over the field.
The raw tools are there and he was highly productive this past year. He's just not nearly as polished as Devonta Smith. And not quite the vertical player Waddle is. But there are lots of different types of effective WRs.
Ironically from the convo about the 2018 draft earlier today, the most recent draft pick he reminds me of is DJ Moore who similarly plays like a RB with the ball in his hands. Moore was drafted #24 and was thought of as a bit of a late riser into the first round. They timed similarly and have similar stat profiles. I'd sign for that level outcome here and think it's a realistic possibility.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IKI6DyhXuaU
Watch the cuts after 2:05 in that video. DJ Moore has never imagined making one of those. Toney did them back-to-back-to-back.
He should be able to step right in and play the slot.
Shep is likely gone after this season. Hopefully Slayton develops into a reliable outside weapon and he, Golladay and Toney are a great group.
It is incredibly important to have weapons this year for Jones. Hopefully the answer to the "is Jones a franchise quarterback" is answered with a yes after the 2021 season, but even if it's a no the most important thing is it's answered one way or the other. This guy should start from day 1 out of the slot and be able to make plays.
If Jones can't show he's a franchise QB this year with the weapons they now have, then they need to look for another QB next off-season
Fair and logical evaluation.
I'm talking about the 2020 NFL version of Samuel and what he brings to a football team. Toney brings the same skills.
Christian was talking about projecting a player from CFB to NFL whose role is uncertain. My point is that Toney isn't a guy who split time at 2 positions, he played WR and this past year he did it very well. They may not need to be "creative" with him for him to be effective (though surely it could be helpful to use any player creatively with motion and alignment). I agree with the comp to the player Curtis Samuel was this past year.
https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/kadarius-toney/ - ( New Window )
2 – Jordan Matthews – Vanderbilt – 6’3/212: 85
...
5 – Corey Latimer – Indiana – 6’3/215: 79
6 – Martavis Bryant – Clemson – 6’4/211: 79
7 – Mike Evans – Texas A&M – 6’5/231: 78
...
10 – DaVante Adams – Fresno State – 6’1/212” 75
...
13 – Jarvis Landry – LSU – 6’0/205: 75
...
16 – Allen Robinson – Penn State – 6’3/220: 74
2014 Wide Receivers
I just don’t think there’s a single active player you can compare him to. He’s so one of a kind. Dante Hall for that one year was special as a returner. That’s a legit comparison in terms of movement but Toney was doing it as a WR. His route running and catching skills need to improve no doubt. But he has other skills that could make those route running skills otherworldly.
So I was really rooting for Waddle, and Smith as a fall back.
Toney isn't as fast as Waddle, but faster than Smith. But he isn't as good a route runner as Smith. That said, he has traits, kind of a combo of both receivers. He has good hand size at 9.5" which is something I always look for in receivers.
He is a really explosive athlete. Skinner/Talking Giants has a good breakdown on him.
He creates a LOT of separation. He had a big game vs Alabama, so against the top competition. He's going to create separation in the NFL, and he does it with his speed. He also has really good releases. Lots of broken tackles, his catch percentage as noted, and he gets plenty of downfield balls and wins. Leaps about 40" as noted.
The Giants might not have lost anything in terms of the quality of receiver they got after missing out on Waddle and Smith. He's going to make big plays and is the exact kind of complement I was hoping for across from Golladay.
He knows how to set corners up to get open. This is a TD threat with the ball in his hands. I think when you consider that you're getting a dangerous weapon still at 20, and you got an extra 5th this year, and a 1st and 4th next year, especially given that 1st can be a really high first, I really like it.
There's still a lot of good players on the board for 42, also. Surprising pick but it wouldn't surprise me to see him have huge success in the NFL. He has some OBJ to his game.
This is the kind of player that will command respect for his speed. He will help prevent those loaded boxes.
I think this is a player that's going to really help the Giants offense. And I think Toney can play outside, I really do. I know he was primarily a slot at UF, and surely he'll get reps there with the Giants. You don't have to use a lot of imagination to see what he can bring to this offense, and it was an element of the offense that the Giants were missing.
He had like 3 drops in a 150 targets I think. His hands are good.
More Highlights - ( New Window )
The key is whether he will be that 90-1100-10 slot type guy who moves the chains and EXPLODES for some big plays when teams get lax.
Galloday, Toney, Slayton and Barkley are all Home Run threats. I am wondering now if in the 2nd we don't draft an OL (interior) to compete with both Lemiuex and Hernandez. I believe we will do just that.
Good comp.
I just personally don’t like the philosophy of scheming around things. I prefer guys who don’t need to learn the craft at the NFL level.
Every player you pick outside the top 5 needs to learn the craft. This isn't realistic. If you want a guy that you pick and don't mess with, then root for top 5 selections.
What tape are you watching? The tape I've seen clearly indicates 4.4 speed, maybe a tic faster. Seriously read any scout write up on him and they highlight his speed.
Also, you can't fake a 40" vert. His leaping ability (top tier) suggests an explosive lower body.
This is the point. Feels very reminiscent of Eli Apple over Laremy Tunsil from a character perspective. Will have to wait and see. Have a feeling Parsons will be a perennial pro bowler and thorn in the Giants side. Toney is another in the long line of reaches. He may turn out to be great but he was properly graded as a second rounder in a very deep WR class because he will be more developmental as a route runner. More of a gadget player with great burst. Bateman, Paye and Darrisaw were much better choices at twenty.
Overall, a net positive day though since the trade was absolutely the right thing to do. Very good chance we will have two top fifteen picks next year...
Also, Judge has said he's particular about who he lets in the building. This gives me confidence that he is a-ok with Toney the personality and character-wise.
I think I'm gonna trust Judge on this one.
His tape shows speed comparable to Shep though he may be better at breaking tackles since he has more wiggle and possibly more burst. The big question though is his ability to get open and attract double coverage. That to me was the real need and why they loved Waddle and Smith since the goal is to try to get single coverage on Golladay. The Giants already have speed - Ross and Slayton are both faster than Toney. If Toney's route running does not become elite, this will have been a bad pick given the opportunity to draft Bateman, Paye and Darrisaw at twenty.
I asked lastnight and not sure anyone answered but I’d like to hear how much Sy dinged him for the character concerns. If it’s 3-4 points than that would otherwise put him right up there in the low 80’s.
I don’t think Sy dislikes the player.
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but others liked him alot more. Seems dynamic. Hopefully he's not a screw up off the field and the talent comes through. I really thought Paye was going to be the pick.
I asked lastnight and not sure anyone answered but I’d like to hear how much Sy dinged him for the character concerns. If it’s 3-4 points than that would otherwise put him right up there in the low 80’s.
I don’t think Sy dislikes the player.
agree, just had him pegged as a 3rd rounder
No offense but.....WTF are you watching? Slow? Looks like he's running a 4.6?
Yikes.
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how Parsons, the best defensive player in this draft, was disqualified, yet and Toney wasn't...
This is the point. Feels very reminiscent of Eli Apple over Laremy Tunsil from a character perspective. Will have to wait and see. Have a feeling Parsons will be a perennial pro bowler and thorn in the Giants side. Toney is another in the long line of reaches. He may turn out to be great but he was properly graded as a second rounder in a very deep WR class because he will be more developmental as a route runner. More of a gadget player with great burst. Bateman, Paye and Darrisaw were much better choices at twenty.
Overall, a net positive day though since the trade was absolutely the right thing to do. Very good chance we will have two top fifteen picks next year...
IIRC, one of our asshats mentioned something about Parsons' psychological profile that was a red flag as well. So it's not just character issues, like he hazed a guy in college. We would be in position to know given our Penn State connections. Toney has no such things in his record or history.
I just personally don’t like the philosophy of scheming around things. I prefer guys who don’t need to learn the craft at the NFL level.
I’d be more concerned about route running if he wasn’t losing defenders in space consistently. Or was just a vertical guy. This guy just puts DBs in a blender, which is nice.
My hot take is that he has elite quickness but below average speed. He’s a chain mover, which can be very useful. I frankly am not sure I like this pick but it’s likely Toney can help the Giants. I’m interested in seeing how the Giants use him in 3rd down situations. He could be a plus 3rd down back who consistently moves the chains.
Toney 2020 highlights - ( New Window )
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In comment 15243456 bw in dc said:
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how Parsons, the best defensive player in this draft, was disqualified, yet and Toney wasn't...
This is the point. Feels very reminiscent of Eli Apple over Laremy Tunsil from a character perspective. Will have to wait and see. Have a feeling Parsons will be a perennial pro bowler and thorn in the Giants side. Toney is another in the long line of reaches. He may turn out to be great but he was properly graded as a second rounder in a very deep WR class because he will be more developmental as a route runner. More of a gadget player with great burst. Bateman, Paye and Darrisaw were much better choices at twenty.
Overall, a net positive day though since the trade was absolutely the right thing to do. Very good chance we will have two top fifteen picks next year...
IIRC, one of our asshats mentioned something about Parsons' psychological profile that was a red flag as well. So it's not just character issues, like he hazed a guy in college. We would be in position to know given our Penn State connections. Toney has no such things in his record or history.
I appreciate the nuance here, but after the Baker disaster, it would have seemed that Toney was the last guy Mara would have wanted... Time will tell.
For those stating, unequivocally, that he was a 2nd rd prospect...the NY Giants coaching staff, scout team and management disagrees.
Disagree. He's more physical than that. He's much more of slot guy than a speed guy.
Samuel is a physical player. A strong runner. So is Toney. Very similar tools and versatility.
This is a really good addition to this offense. Perfect. An explosive slot guy, jet sweeps, quick screens and can run the plays that stretch the field in every way.
If we had drafted Smith and he wore # 6 would have considered adding to my jersey collection. Meh on Toney until he proves to be more.
He dropped some at the Senior Bowl. I agree, I don't see his hands as a huge issue. One of the things that really stood out about him at the Senior Bowl though was the amount of separation he was getting vs. other WRs. That is an area the Giants have sorely been lacking in.
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stuff is coming from...he seems to have good hands. Maybe not great, but does not seem to be an issue based on what I’m seeing. He had 3 drops in 150 targets at Florida
He dropped some at the Senior Bowl. I agree, I don't see his hands as a huge issue. One of the things that really stood out about him at the Senior Bowl though was the amount of separation he was getting vs. other WRs. That is an area the Giants have sorely been lacking in.
Not to mention the QB's at the Senior Bowl this year were a case study of bad and worse. There is maybe 1 QB from that entire group that will go on Day 2 (Mond) and I am not even sure he threw to Toney.
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Disagree. He's more physical than that. He's much more of slot guy than a speed guy.
Samuel is a physical player. A strong runner. So is Toney. Very similar tools and versatility.
This is a really good addition to this offense. Perfect. An explosive slot guy, jet sweeps, quick screens and can run the plays that stretch the field in every way.
KWALL, from the very limited tape I've seen, Toney is not remotely in Samuel's class as a physical, tough to bring down runner. He would just as soon bull over a CB or S as try to juke him. I don't see Toney that way at all, not as strong or powerful. But, early days, hoping for the best.
I think it was against South Carolina that it seemed like 6 defenders were trying to bring down Toney and could not do it