I could roll with everything until the third rd. This is ridiculous. I know the draft isn’t over yet but we are miles away from anyone who could possibly be an upgrade over what we’ve got.
Way more of a need at OL than CB, especially considering how our division rivals are loading up on their d lines and linebackers.
Sorry but I can’t help but feel this was a big time miss in rd 3
Quote:
In comment 15247558 bLiTz 2k said:
Quote:
In comment 15247547 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 15247515 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
If it makes you feel better, Gettleman just said they were eyeing two offensive linemen earlier in the draft, but they got picked before their selection.
Look at your posts. Which is it? They like who they have or it was some bullshit value play?
This organization has been notoriously bad at scouting and drafting OL since Accorsi left. They’ve consistently overrated their guys (see Reese’s comments when they passed on Whitworth in FA and Ramcyk in the draft).
This current group is questionable at best and Gates/Hernandez are entering contract years. This is the time to add talent to the trenches and make it a strength.
Gates signed an extension and is under contract through 2022
Cool, that’s a modicum of security I guess.
Look at what the teams at the bottom of the draft (the good teams) are drafting.
Hint: they aren’t drafting 4/5 corners hoping to cover people to death.
First off, I pointed out that you were factually wrong, and did not provide any debate to your little rant..but since you want to get into it:
Did those teams add 3 draft choices, 2 premium, to the position group the year prior? Not sure what you are getting at, but taking a 3rd round IOL over a DB that you like much more doesnt improve that group nearly as much as some of you think.
If they need a day 1 starter on the OL, they should (and still could) sign a FA before camp. I dont see anyone taken in the 3rd round going to come in and be a savior on a line that you guys say is a mess. I think they could use some better talent and competition there too, but once the 2nd round came and went, you arent going to find the guaranteed day 1 starter that you guys are thinking.
Still plenty of opportunities to upgrade there should they want to.
Who gives a shit how many “draft choices” they added to the OL last year? The goal is to put together a high quality group. Is that what they have? If you’re a stat dork the answer is definitively no.
This is objectively a very questionable group and that’s being generous. They shouldn’t be passing on OL talent simply because what they have is young and they hope it will improve. The right rookie can win a starting guard spot and/or beat out Peart for the RT job. Now is the time to really improve the pipeline, not take the Reese approach and punt late round picks on OL projects.
Quote:
In comment 15247563 mfsd said:
Quote:
In comment 15247543 Old Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 15247517 mfsd said:
Quote:
In comment 15247511 Old Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 15247433 CMicks3110 said:
Quote:
tremendously.
You won’t be able to use those weapons without a better O line.How many times do I have to go back to this past SB. Could KC use all those weapons??.
I
Using one outlier where their 2 best OL got hurt before the game like happened to KC in the Super Bowl doesn’t prove your point.
It doesn’t matter why KC’s line sucked in the SB, but the fact that it did injury, or not. The line sucked, and so did the team, and the Giants are nowhere the talant KC is.
Our OL right now today is much better than what KC started in the SB. Their best tackle was out, and they had to start Mike Remmers, who couldn’t even cut it for us.
I don’t disagree about still needed to add to the OL. We would have taken Sewell had he dropped (obviously), and word is we would have taken Vera-Tucker at 11 had the Bears not called with a no doubt about it trade offer.
I just don’t see the desperation to force picks, that’s my point
KC has fixed their line, because they know how important it is. The Giants have gotten worse if that was possible.
KC fixed their OL? In what regard? By signing a guy in Brown who hasn't played in over a year, Thuney, ancient Long and drafting Humphrey? They've played ZERO downs together. Zero. How is that "fixed"? Do you have the first clue how OL play works?
I'm guessing no.
The Giants OL has gotten worse? How?
Don't just spit Bullshit and not back it up without SOME semblance of intelligent thought.
Thuney is better than anything the Giants have, and Brown is not bad either, and because they haven’t played together means they won’t be any good? Zeitler was the Giants best lineman last year, and now you have two backups at guard. That’s improvement?
Gives Thomas and Peart another year to show us who they really are. Rookie seasons don't really count.
Then the Giants will have a more accurate assessment for 2022 regarding and know exactly where they have to go on the OL. Thomas looked like he was getting better towards the 2nd half of the season last year.
But, what happens if he really shits the bed this year? We will still be in the market for a LT. We don't know that for real yet.
There are only so many picks. Many people plugged in have repeatedly said don't be surprised if they don't go OL. They don't think the guys they have are dogshit.
Judge and his staff butted heads re: the OL last year. They fired the OL coach.
I’m sure they’ve been thinking the OL they’ve had for 10+ years wasn’t dogshit but somehow it has always been dogshit during that period. I don’t know how that’s possible given the presumably infallible nature of the organization and scouting dept.
I dont like going into a season with this much uncertainty.
The time for an OL was round 1 or 2. The likelihood a day 3 pick is in position to be effective as a rookie is slim.
Quote:
In comment 15247578 Old Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 15247563 mfsd said:
Quote:
In comment 15247543 Old Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 15247517 mfsd said:
Quote:
In comment 15247511 Old Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 15247433 CMicks3110 said:
Quote:
tremendously.
You won’t be able to use those weapons without a better O line.How many times do I have to go back to this past SB. Could KC use all those weapons??.
I
Using one outlier where their 2 best OL got hurt before the game like happened to KC in the Super Bowl doesn’t prove your point.
It doesn’t matter why KC’s line sucked in the SB, but the fact that it did injury, or not. The line sucked, and so did the team, and the Giants are nowhere the talant KC is.
Our OL right now today is much better than what KC started in the SB. Their best tackle was out, and they had to start Mike Remmers, who couldn’t even cut it for us.
I don’t disagree about still needed to add to the OL. We would have taken Sewell had he dropped (obviously), and word is we would have taken Vera-Tucker at 11 had the Bears not called with a no doubt about it trade offer.
I just don’t see the desperation to force picks, that’s my point
KC has fixed their line, because they know how important it is. The Giants have gotten worse if that was possible.
KC fixed their OL? In what regard? By signing a guy in Brown who hasn't played in over a year, Thuney, ancient Long and drafting Humphrey? They've played ZERO downs together. Zero. How is that "fixed"? Do you have the first clue how OL play works?
I'm guessing no.
The Giants OL has gotten worse? How?
Don't just spit Bullshit and not back it up without SOME semblance of intelligent thought.
Thuney is better than anything the Giants have, and Brown is not bad either, and because they haven’t played together means they won’t be any good? Zeitler was the Giants best lineman last year, and now you have two backups at guard. That’s improvement?
I didn't say they won't be good. You said their OL is "fixed" and I call BS. You mention two players on a completely re-tooled front five.
"Thuney is better than anything the Giants have." That's it? That's your argument. Come on.
Listen, OldBlue - I speak from experience that it takes an unbelievable amount of time, luck, coaching, with a surrounding cast of six other guys on the field to be an effective unit. You're just spewing garbage at this point. Do you. I guess.
I dont like going into a season with this much uncertainty.
The time for an OL was round 1 or 2. The likelihood a day 3 pick is in position to be effective as a rookie is slim.
Like I keep saying that the O line was the MOST IMPORTANT area that needed fixing, and should have been done on Day1, and not day 3.
I and my grandson are UW-Whitewater graduates. Third best University of Wisconsin college (UW-Madison and UW-Milwaukee being better). A division II school that regularly wins titles.
Great school that is southeast from Madison and southwest from Milwaukee. A lot of students from Illinois. Specializes in Business, Accounting and computer science, teaching, and liberal arts.
BBA - 1980
MBA - 1985
Quote:
In comment 15247601 Bricktop said:
Quote:
In comment 15247578 Old Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 15247563 mfsd said:
Quote:
In comment 15247543 Old Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 15247517 mfsd said:
Quote:
In comment 15247511 Old Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 15247433 CMicks3110 said:
Quote:
tremendously.
You won’t be able to use those weapons without a better O line.How many times do I have to go back to this past SB. Could KC use all those weapons??.
I
Using one outlier where their 2 best OL got hurt before the game like happened to KC in the Super Bowl doesn’t prove your point.
It doesn’t matter why KC’s line sucked in the SB, but the fact that it did injury, or not. The line sucked, and so did the team, and the Giants are nowhere the talant KC is.
Our OL right now today is much better than what KC started in the SB. Their best tackle was out, and they had to start Mike Remmers, who couldn’t even cut it for us.
I don’t disagree about still needed to add to the OL. We would have taken Sewell had he dropped (obviously), and word is we would have taken Vera-Tucker at 11 had the Bears not called with a no doubt about it trade offer.
I just don’t see the desperation to force picks, that’s my point
KC has fixed their line, because they know how important it is. The Giants have gotten worse if that was possible.
KC fixed their OL? In what regard? By signing a guy in Brown who hasn't played in over a year, Thuney, ancient Long and drafting Humphrey? They've played ZERO downs together. Zero. How is that "fixed"? Do you have the first clue how OL play works?
I'm guessing no.
The Giants OL has gotten worse? How?
Don't just spit Bullshit and not back it up without SOME semblance of intelligent thought.
Thuney is better than anything the Giants have, and Brown is not bad either, and because they haven’t played together means they won’t be any good? Zeitler was the Giants best lineman last year, and now you have two backups at guard. That’s improvement?
I didn't say they won't be good. You said their OL is "fixed" and I call BS. You mention two players on a completely re-tooled front five.
"Thuney is better than anything the Giants have." That's it? That's your argument. Come on.
Listen, OldBlue - I speak from experience that it takes an unbelievable amount of time, luck, coaching, with a surrounding cast of six other guys on the field to be an effective unit. You're just spewing garbage at this point. Do you. I guess.
Garbage is what this O line will be if it stays as is. How many more losing seasons in a row do you want to see? They are already at 4, and counting, so how much time to you want to give this O line to call it a failure? Time, and coaching will not make this line get better.
Go be miserable somewhere else.
Thomas was not the right pick last year with #4, and yes I would have taken Becton.
No one is dismissing it. You guys seem to respect Sy. He warned you repeatedly that need versus value may not match up on Day 2. He was right. The Giants were interested in OLs but they weren't there when they picked. They moved on and picked good players at other need positions. What's so hard about this?
Quote:
you’d just bitch at the player we took. No idea how some of you people wake up everyday and choose to spend this much time bitching and hating everything Giants. Pathetic.
Thomas was not the right pick last year with #4, and yes I would have taken Becton.
Cool. And now you didn’t get what you want again and we all have to suffer through your posts. Thanks for the contribution!
Brown and Thuney are two of the best players at their positions in the NFL, they signed a competent center in Blythe, and drafted a high talent, interior lineman in Humphrey. They’ve basically done everything a team can do to improve their offensive line.
Everyone wants to add another OL. We've had three picks. Need and value haven't matched up. You can reach for an OL, but that's how you get into trouble.
Why is optimism ridiculous? Other teams are relying on their young players getting better, that’s how teams get good, their investments payoff. That’s what it will take for us to get good, our investments paying off.
Quote:
KC fixed their OL? In what regard? By signing a guy in Brown who hasn't played in over a year, Thuney, ancient Long and drafting Humphrey? They've played ZERO downs together. Zero. How is that "fixed"? Do you have the first clue how OL play works?
Brown and Thuney are two of the best players at their positions in the NFL, they signed a competent center in Blythe, and drafted a high talent, interior lineman in Humphrey. They’ve basically done everything a team can do to improve their offensive line.
I get it and I said as much. But to just claim it's fixed is silly. Until they take the field healthy and performing at a high level together, they're not fixed.
It's these unequivocal claims by weirdos on the internet that just have me shaking my head. It just reeks of a negative agenda and it's Fucking ridiculous.
None of us know what's going to happen with the Giants OL. But I believe they'll be better next year with more experience, more weapons outside the tackles and Barkley back. It's only rational.
To say they're "worse"... Now... Is Fucking absurd.
Quote:
I get it. But the optimism on how the young guys will progress is as ridiculous as the doomsday crowd. People have a reason to vent.
Everyone wants to add another OL. We've had three picks. Need and value haven't matched up. You can reach for an OL, but that's how you get into trouble.
This is bullshit. They had no problem reaching for Toney in round 1. I like Toney, but he was a reach. I’m not buying for a second that he was right behind Smith on their board. They had their minds made up that they were going to add another offensive weapon that dovetailed nicely with what they already acquired.
And to be clear, I don’t have a problem with having that sort of game plan heading into the draft. I think Toney should be a nice player. But don’t act like they’ve simply been a slave to their board so far.
Just because you didn't like the pick does not change that fact.
The Giants clearly had him rated as the 4th-best WR in a deep WR draft.
Quote:
I get it. But the optimism on how the young guys will progress is as ridiculous as the doomsday crowd. People have a reason to vent.
Why is optimism ridiculous? Other teams are relying on their young players getting better, that’s how teams get good, their investments payoff. That’s what it will take for us to get good, our investments paying off.
Look at the hit rates on guys drafted where our guys were drafted. If you're looking at a range of outcomes 1 of Thomas/Peart is likely to fail. Hit rate on 5th round OL is low and my personal bias seeps in there because I don't completely get it with him. It's a likelihood that one or more of those guys don't work out. Hernandez is trending the wrong way with an expiring contract too. Smarter to have him and Lemuiex competing for a spot instead of front running for both. FA signing is a stopgap floor signing.
It's these unequivocal claims by weirdos on the internet that just have me shaking my head. It just reeks of a negative agenda and it's Fucking ridiculous.
None of us know what's going to happen with the Giants OL. But I believe they'll be better next year with more experience, more weapons outside the tackles and Barkley back. It's only rational.
To say they're "worse"... Now... Is Fucking absurd.
I don’t know how to quantify fixed, but in terms of rational, I think adding several high talent players certainly gets you on the road to playing well.
I look at the Giants, and they’ll have a new primary right tackle and right guard. If continuity and playing together is a factor, I think that’s a challenge.
I also think both Lemieux and Hernandez exhibited some fundamental, and exploited flaws in pass protection last year, and will be on their third line coach in 14 months. And then there is Solder, who did actually miss a year, and was pretty overwhelmed the last time he played.
I am not sure about worse, but I won’t be shocked if the line struggles.
We can’t just threw everything at the OL. We will add depth and the players and coaches we have need to earn their paychecks.
Just because you didn't like the pick does not change that fact.
The Giants clearly had him rated as the 4th-best WR in a deep WR draft.
Having him ranked as the 4th best WR doesn’t mean he was BPA at 20.
This has been a need based draft so far, make no mistake about it. DG and co mentioned several times this off-season they were looking for offensive playmakers and edge rushers. They weren’t happy with the CB depth. That’s what they’ve picked.
This isn’t about their board, it’s about their opinion of what they already have on the roster. There’s a difference. They have a higher opinion of the OL talent on the roster than everyone else does (see DGs comments prior to the draft). So that’s how they say “the value wasn’t there.” The value was there if you disagree with their assessment of the OL.
Alrighty. Goodnight.
Again, the Giants were not alone.
Quote:
In comment 15247652 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
you’d just bitch at the player we took. No idea how some of you people wake up everyday and choose to spend this much time bitching and hating everything Giants. Pathetic.
Thomas was not the right pick last year with #4, and yes I would have taken Becton.
Cool. And now you didn’t get what you want again and we all have to suffer through your posts. Thanks for the contribution!
You should worry more about suffering through another losing season, which would be 5 in a row.
Quote:
In comment 15247663 Old Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 15247652 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
you’d just bitch at the player we took. No idea how some of you people wake up everyday and choose to spend this much time bitching and hating everything Giants. Pathetic.
Thomas was not the right pick last year with #4, and yes I would have taken Becton.
Cool. And now you didn’t get what you want again and we all have to suffer through your posts. Thanks for the contribution!
You should worry more about suffering through another losing season, which would be 5 in a row.
No I shouldn’t, it’s a game I have no control over. Worry free on this end sorry man.
I am not clutching my pearls (in the spirit of remaining transparent - I don't own Pearls) but, I also do not think the OL is set. I would have been fine if they stayed at 10 and drafted the best OL available. They didn't though. Oh well, maybe next year they draft 2 OL in the first round? I would be fine and happy with that. I want the best OL in the NFL. Remember the Offensive line that Dallas had in the early 90's ...? "Big Kat" Williams, Nate Newton, Mark Stepnoski, Mark Tuinei, ... I forgot who else but, they had to be the greatest OL in the history of the league .... oh how I drooled. That's what I want.
Gettleman said last night they targeted some OL help, but the players got picked. Robinson was in the mix at 50, so trading up for him in the 3rd was another easy decision I’m sure.
I hope they get OL help today. But, looking at the full picture - I’m very pleased. Again, this team is set up with 10 picks in next years draft which include 7 in the top 4 rounds.
The Giants have done well.
I've been saying for about a year the rebuild hasn't really begun. Now maybe it has. I'm fine with the players they picked so far this weekend, but to me the major takeaway is the 2022 draft picks. Clearly there is a new approach in the building that aligns with the arrival of Judge - that's the reason for optimism.
I do want them to nab Smith in the 4th. Trade up if necessary.
I've been saying for about a year the rebuild hasn't really begun. Now maybe it has. I'm fine with the players they picked so far this weekend, but to me the major takeaway is the 2022 draft picks. Clearly there is a new approach in the building that aligns with the arrival of Judge - that's the reason for optimism.
It also aligns with the arrival of the coronavirus and anyone with vision would be looking at both drafts as one. It also aligns with a draft where you had a plethora of perceived quality QBs along with some QB desperate team.
Not discounting the Judge factor but it would be folly to discount a fortunate (maybe not in the case of COVID) confluence of events. But Petit did confirm what Gettleman has said several times, which is that they are not opposed and, indeed, have tried previously to trade down when appropriate value and circumstances aligned.
I like what they’ve done overall in the draft. The trades were excellent and the players selected have a ton of upside. That doesn’t mean no moves can be critiqued.
The Giants are trying to make a run at the division and see what they have in Jones. Hell even Barkley needs a decision relatively soon. That won’t happen until the OL is rock solid. Right now the OL is all hopes and dreams, not performance based. There isn’t enough NFL tape on these guys to know exactly how good or bad they really are.
All of these flashy off-season moves will be for nothing if the OL is still shitty in 21.
Optimism, at any level is completely the right way to enjoy football.
Nothing wrong with your pessimism, but it is more accurate or somehow more appropriate than someone else's optimism.
This offense, much like Tennessee, is going to flow through the run game. Yes Tennessee puts up points because everything they do is based off the run game. Baltimore is like this as well. This is what the analytics nerds don't get. That if these teams aren't running the ball well, they can't do what they do in the passing game.
We have Saquon Barkley coming back, finally running behind a line that shows well in the run game, and that was the whole point of signing Booker! All these people had man crushes on Gallman last year, but his success was generated for him. Saquon has never had that. I mean our biggest win in years, on the road in Seattle, was because our OL dominated at point of attack and we played great defense. I for one can't wait to see this team in action.
Rich Seubert - undrafted
David Diehl - 5th round
Kevin Boothe - 6th round
Kareem McKenzie - 3rd round - #79
Chris Snee - early 2nd round pick
Will Beatty - late 2nd round
David Baas - early 2nd round
2 Super Bowls with that group
I'm not really sweating it.
You are not the QB.
Rich Seubert - undrafted
David Diehl - 5th round
Kevin Boothe - 6th round
Kareem McKenzie - 3rd round - #79
Chris Snee - early 2nd round pick
Will Beatty - late 2nd round
David Baas - early 2nd round
2 Super Bowls with that group
I'm not really sweating it.
You are not the QB.