While I am a huge Giant's fan, have been on the board forever, and had season tix for decades, I am far from a draft expert...I tend to be a wait, see who they picked, and even further, see how they play, sort of fan.
But, there is so much love for the big picture of Giant's Draft 2021 and I am a bit confused about one facet. Thanks for helping me get it...I want to feel good about what's gone on so far.
Specifically, I am confused about the first pick...Kadarius Toney.
We all have great faith, and great appreciation, for the tremendous work Sy does before and during the draft and, like most others here, if Sy likes a guy, that's good enough for me.
So, what gives on Toney, if Sy had him as the 14th best wide receiver, with a 77 grade that is deemed as a" 3rd rounder – Should be able to rotate by end of rookie year – Year 2/3 starter"
Thanks, not looking for a debate, I admit my ignorance, just trying to figure out the conflicting information (excitement for the pick v Sy's very educated/generally spot on evaluation)!
Toney is one of the best WRs in the draft at getting separation. Even better, his most frequently run route was a quick route over the middle, which is an easy outlet for a QB.
Toney is basically the perfect version of a slot WR in Garrett's offense.
Had zero "wow" players on the field (Saquon Barkley aside).
The team was slow, predictable and extremely easy to defend.
Kadarius Toney would not have been my choice at 20, but he brings something special to the Giants table. He'll be a return man; run power sweeps; WR slip screens; direct snaps from Center; half back options; reverses; and, yes, go out for passes.
He brings a very exciting new dimension to a team that was DESPERATE for that dimension!
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Is a quick twitch explosive playmaker who provides a different flavor than guys like Golloday or Slayton. If they use him right he can be a nice weapon in this offense.
It reminds me of Brian Billick when he said you want your WRs to be like a basketball team. We have very unique weapons now. Injuries will be interesting with how they adapt because these players are so unique but they all provide something different for defenses to really have to pick and choose their poison.
Yep. Now just need to make sure the OL is solid so they can do their thing.
Think Ike Hilliard with a few ticks up in speed.
somebody just needs to tell him to go down, he's 5'11 190 and plays like hes 6-2 210
appears to handle contact off the line well too
This would seem to be a concern for an undersized player. He's quite average sized for a WR.
There are some teams that have Toney in the top 5 according to one of the very few media resources I trust and speak with. That really surprises me. I won’t give details here but there are a few serious red flags with character, and I just don’t see Toney having a high ceiling.
So he mentions he knows of nfl teams that had him top 5 and then mentions few serious red flags with character right after. The red flag character stuff was mentioned elsewhere. Not sure that played into his actual grade or not but it is telling it was first thing he mentioned after saying nfl teams had him in top 5. By all accounts Giants don’t take character concerns lightly, maybe even more so with Joe Judge at the helm. They obviously missed some things with DeAndre Baker(Gettleman pick before Joe Jusge) so that to me is even more reason they wouldn’t take those issues lightly. Outside of that, it’s the draft and beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder. Where one eval sees rawness/lack of refinement as a wr, another might see that as a player who once he learns those skills can be that much better as a player(untapped potential).
The other thing with Toney that was mentioned by Sy is that the team that drafts him should have a plan and role for him in mind. This is something I’ve heard from other evaluations as well and I think when you go to a team that already has an X option in Golladay, a backfield weapon in Saquon, a steady pro slot in Sheppard and Slayton who has shown some promise as a complimentary downfield threat(miscast as our X for his first two years) then you are absolutely in a position where you can define a specific way that a guy like Toney can help your team, he doesn’t need to be a perfect/polished all around receiver out of the gate. Giants were blitzed at a higher rate than just about any team in the league last year(could not have helped a young oline getting their sea legs in pass pro) and also were last in the nfl as a receiver group in yac...this is Toneys A+ strength and absolutely an area where he can come in and help the Giants counter what defenses where doing last year(Barkley and Golladay will help tremendously in that regard as well).
Like De Vonta Smith can (a top-of-the board guy),he's a top 20; just where he got drafted.
Is that bad ? No-way, we need someone like that. He can be the reincarnation of our Steve Smith, a few years ago, but better. He kind of reminds me a bit of tough guy Anquan Boldin (with better feet and speed)
I think he will replace Shep at slot very quickly.
I think KT's use will also dial in with more of the college schemes being brought in. I'm thinking a Brandon Aiyuk type impact.
Quote: I'm with you in your concern in your initial comment this thread. While Toney is certainly quick and twitchy and offers a lot of versatility for the O, my main worry is that as fast and quick as his stops and starts and changes of direction (the joystick meme) appear, in the faster, bigger NFL with Cs, Ss and LBs as or nearly as quick, will he be whaled on if those moves are not quick enough?////
This would seem to be a concern for an undersized player. He's quite average sized for a WR.
That’s all...
Is how he breaks tackles.When is the last time you've seen RECEIVERS break tackles like that ?
Our OC has a long history of abusing us with option routes in the middle of the field. Toney can do that inside and out, on top of his other positive traits. Excited to see how Kitchens and Co. influence the passing game this year, too.
Kick returners are of less importance these days, with current kick off rules, but perhaps Toney can return punts (assuming ball security, every coaches number one priority) better that Peppers. Dave Meggett was quite a weapon (though he turned out to be a very bad person).
Also, the character stuff...Maybe Plax can have a conversation with the kid about making good decisions as a pro...
That’s all...
So, do you still believe that Evan Engram was a reach? After all, Sy did have a 1st round grade on him (84).
It’s going to be interesting to see his statistical impact on the D. The metric I will be looking it is the number of first downs he gains.
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Sy underrated him a bit. Giants reached for him a bit. Probably a second round guy.
That’s all...
So, do you still believe that Evan Engram was a reach? After all, Sy did have a 1st round grade on him (84).
All those TEs were hyped up way too much that year. Engram wasn’t worth #23 back then, and the last 4 years haven’t shown anything different...
Quote: Sy underrated him a bit. Giants reached for him a bit. Probably a second round guy.
That’s all...
[Klaatu]
So, do you still believe that Evan Engram was a reach? After all, Sy did have a 1st round grade on him (84).////
All those TEs were hyped up way too much that year. Engram wasn’t worth #23 back then, and the last 4 years haven’t shown anything different...
That said, not clear to me why Klaatu posed the question: Klaatu, are you positing that KT is going to be as big a disappointment as EE?
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In comment 15248528 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote: Sy underrated him a bit. Giants reached for him a bit. Probably a second round guy.
That’s all...
[Klaatu]
So, do you still believe that Evan Engram was a reach? After all, Sy did have a 1st round grade on him (84).////
All those TEs were hyped up way too much that year. Engram wasn’t worth #23 back then, and the last 4 years haven’t shown anything different...
Ndjoku has established himself as a TE worthy of the position, if not necessarily where he was drafted. EE fails at both criteria.
That said, not clear to me why Klaatu posed the question: Klaatu, are you positing that KT is going to be as big a disappointment as EE?
Where did you get that idea? I disagree with Googs that it was a reach. I really like the pick. Googs always maintained that Engram at 23 was a reach. Well, Sy's grade says otherwise. How Engram's performed since he was drafted doesn't matter.
Honestly, just look at the YouTube videos to see for yourself....the kid is a freak in an amazing way. I can see us using him in so many ways if we have creative coaches. For example, on third and short he can take the direct snap and let him show off his athleticism to get thos 1,2, or 3 yards. Plus he can throw very well, and he is a great returner. He only dropped 3 passes so no worry there.
In conclusion, sure we all value and predicate Sy here, but he is just one voice so you have to juxtapose his thoughts with others to see a bigger picture here. I’m sure Synwould be the first to tell you he has made mistakes....I believe this is one of them.
Is there more to it?
2) Some evaluators (not Sy, I don't think) downgraded KT's hands because they were BAD in the Senior Bowl tryouts. In games, over the course of his career, his hands were good.
3) Sy acknowledged character question marks based largely, I think, on the fake gun, real gun, incidents. Did that affect Sy's evaluation, consciously or subconsciously? Hard to say.
I happened to like Elijah Moore more, as a player with a lower ceiling perhaps but a higher floor. However, EM is shorter, lighter, and perhaps not as durable (strong? tough?) as KT. Boylhart, who is a VERY eccentric evaluator, ranked Toney as the #1 WR in the draft, and by a surprising margin.
I'm sorry, but this guy had Trevor Lawrence as his QB3. That destroys your credibility from the start
He did improve in his senior year - (10 TDs - 70 receptions). I wonder what is Yards After Catch stats is, I'm guessing it's pretty good.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/kadarius-toney-1.html
I don't think he's a kick or punt returner - 21.6 yds/11.3 yds averages.
I don't think he's a deep out kind of target, which means you don't have to wait to throw him the ball. He's going to stay close and do his damage inside the hash marks.
Realistically, I agree, he's a 2nd or 3rd rounder; but "it is what it is"; he'll provide some exciting plays and help move the chains well.
This pick is reasonable, at #20; not like last year, picking Andrew Thomas 5th overall
This pick is reasonable, at #20; not like last year, picking Andrew Thomas 5th overall
Don’t forget, Toney was not picked 11th, but rather 20th. I hope this mock helps ease your pain...
First round - ( New Window )
But look at 1st 4 rounds
Sy had rated Azeez Ojulari as 84. This is liek a 1st rd pick.
St had Aaron Robinson rated as 70. That's a 2nd rd pick.
ST Had Toney rated as 77. That's a 3rd rd 4th rd pick.
SY had Elerson Smith as 77. That's a 3rd rd 4th rd pick.
****So with all these picks and getting a number 1 pick from a definite non-title team next year - that's damn good, isn't it?
One thing is I hope Rodgers is coming back to GBay. That's a highly-probable 2 losses for Chicago.
But look at 1st 4 rounds
Sy had rated Azeez Ojulari as 84. This is like a 1st rd pick.
SY had Aaron Robinson rated as 79. That's a 2nd rd pick.
ST Had Toney rated as 77. That's a 3rd rd 4th rd pick.
SY had Elerson Smith as 77. That's a 3rd rd 4th rd pick.
****So with all these picks and getting a number 1 pick from a definite non-title team next year - that's damn good, isn't it?
One thing is I hope Rodgers is coming back to GBay. That's a highly-probable 2 losses for Chicago.
I mean to say 79 for Aaron not 70.
Look at the totality of the draft. That's what imo you need to understand.
How much difference is there between a consensus 4th WR and 8th in this draft? The Giants have their number 1.
Also- this ensures if Shep gets hurt you have his spot filled. And secondly at some point soon his salary will be greatly reduced or he'll move on.
I think they went for the player they believe has a higher ceiling. Bateman’s floor is prolly higher. Toney did go for 8-158 in the SEC Title game. He has a unique ability to be immediately open. He just isn’t a polished route runner just yet. He cuts so well, the team must think he can develop that.
He's fast enough, has great feet and balance and has a fierce mentality (breaks a lot of tackles). I think he will be an outstanding slot.
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why Toney over Bateman? I do think Bateman was universally considered the better WR by just about everyone-- and he also has speed. Just feels like more of a sure thing at #20. This just reminds me a lot of when the Giants took Sterling Shepard with Michael Thomas still on the board. Thomas was higher on literally everyone's boards, but the Giants went w/ Shep instead because they were looking for a certain "type" of WR. IMO you go with the best player. I like Shep, but not as much as I would've liked Thomas. (And you can't convince me that Thomas is SOLELY a product of the N.O. offense + Brees and really we can't tell whose better between the 2, some posters tried to convince me of that when I last brought this up). This certainly feels like the Giants fell in love with Smith and then when they got jobbed by the Eagles they went and found someone who reminds them of Smith. I'm not saying it can't end up turning out well-- but it just feels like that. In the 1st round I feel like it's always better to go w/ the more sure thing.
I think they went for the player they believe has a higher ceiling. Bateman’s floor is prolly higher. Toney did go for 8-158 in the SEC Title game. He has a unique ability to be immediately open. He just isn’t a polished route runner just yet. He cuts so well, the team must think he can develop that.
That's a good point. I have to say watching these highlights actually feels like Pitts and Toney were the 2 best players on the field that day-- but the fact Mac Jones had all day to throw and Najee Harris had massive holes to run through was really the difference-maker in the end. Trask was getting sacked at the worst times and had that one costly fumble-- but besides that Florida almost won while literally the entire game plan for Florida was a) get the ball to Toney, b) get the ball to Pitts, c) get the ball to Toney, etc...
SEC Title Game 2020 - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )