WR Kadarius Toney: help me understand

Does great work, great research.

His evaluations get a “home field advantage” because he posts here.

He’s not right about everyone. He’s not wrong about everyone. He’s one well informed and articulated opinion.

My best guess is that a lot what of Sy said about him is spot on, for example his route running probably needs some work and he’s never going to be physical red zone target teams covet.

But there are some things he does really really well, like stop on a dime and shake defenders out of their shoes. I mean he’s ridiculous out there, looking like Allen Iverson crossing people over.

Those traits are probably what the Giants see and think, he’s far from a finished product right now but when he is, watch out.

So Sys not necessarily wrong but it could still be a phenomenal pick.

educated professionals can look at the same set of data or, in this case, players and may reach a different conclusion. In my view, tha's the NFL draft in a nutshell.

mock he had Toney goin at 25 the Jags. He obviously felt he was a 1st round worthy talent.

That first round fell out really badly for the Giants, before and after the trade down. I’m concerned Toney was stuck down there on the team’s rankings and never received the scrutiny higher ranked players did.

The guy’s quickness is elite but he is relatively slow to my eyes for the NFL. He is also something of a gadget player, too. So the question of positional value comes into play. NFL teams generally don’t draft possession receivers and third down backs in the 1st round. Hopefully, I am wrong, but there’s a lot of risk with this one.

the other day, Toney is basically Curtis Samuel. He’s not quite as polished in terms of route running as Samuel, but he’s shiftier. Toney is a player that will create matchup nightmares for defenses as they have to account for Golladay, Barkley, Slayton running deep, etc. I can see Toney sliding underneath and turning short catches into chunk gains on a regular basis.

Otherwise it might have been considerably higher.

fits our system and that made him a valuable priority for us.

But part of the issue with him is/was his off the field issues (few gun incidents but nothing illegal). On the field he is extremely dynamic, just watch some of his highlight videos.

He's going to be able to create immediate separation for easy outlet passes, especially when teams decide to blitz. He's got great short area quickness so he should be able to rack up run after the catch yards on those plays too.

We didn't have many yards after the catch last year and Toney should bring that in spades. Will make life easier for Daniel Jones.

Otherwise it might have been considerably higher.

and Sy is very good at it and very good to share his opinions here.

He acknowledges that some sources had Toney as a top 5 receiver.

scouts differ on players all the time. Scouts love The top players and the rest all fall into different tiers.

I did....I feel Toney will be better then the Alabama WRs.

I respect Sy....but thought he was way off base on him, but that is ok. Different strokes for different folks.

Toney is a "Barkley" imo...an offensive weapon.

I appreciate the perspectives.....indeed, it's never a precise science. See Tom Brady...

isn't a highlight clip and he's going against a great team. I won't say any more. Just watch it. It's only 5 minutes.
Kadarius Toney (Florida WR) vs Alabama - ( New Window )

1) I think Judge, with his background in special teams, gave Toney a lot of bonus points because of his talent as KR and PR. All the evaluators agree that Toney's joystick-quick first-step-shake is truly elite.

2) Some evaluators (not Sy, I don't think) downgraded KT's hands because they were BAD in the Senior Bowl tryouts. In games, over the course of his career, his hands were good.

3) Sy acknowledged character question marks based largely, I think, on the fake gun, real gun, incidents. Did that affect Sy's evaluation, consciously or subconsciously? Hard to say.

I happened to like Elijah Moore more, as a player with a lower ceiling perhaps but a higher floor. However, EM is shorter, lighter, and perhaps not as durable (strong? tough?) as KT. Boylhart, who is a VERY eccentric evaluator, ranked Toney as the #1 WR in the draft, and by a surprising margin.

- there was a downgrade for character concerns (I assume the Giants have checked out this aspect); and

- purely as a WR, I get it - he's not Smith. But Smith is not Toney, either. Toney was a star QB in high school and you will find him listed at "RB" earlier in his college career. I think he's a great all-around offensive weapon especially on third down. It's true his straight line speed does not appear to be elite. But he's a crazy good runner with the ball in his hands.

I see somewhat from what I read that he will break a DBs ankles within a phone booth with his short area quickness. He does need to work on his route running. Does not have the breakaway speed as some of the videos show him being caught from behind. Does have a skill set the Giants are missing. Probably does not not start week 1, but will get progressively more plays as he learns. Could see more action is someone ahead of him gets injured. I see him taking a bigger jump in playing time and as a contributor next season.

Between those of us who wanted a WR and those of you who didn’t?

I guarantee like anyone else (Kiper,etc.) you can go back and see hits and misses. Toney was tied with Chase for the highest athleticism score of WRs in this draft. Toney has been used more as a gadget player until this past season, so he doesn’t have some of the other WR skills as developed as others, but he will be a huge weapon and complement the Giants other skill guys well. He will be used in short to intermediate routes, run the ball, maybe return a bit. Just get the ball in his hands and let him do the rest

he definitely rounds his cuts. (Which seems strange for a guy who's so strong, and notable for his quick steps.) But some analysts point out that because Toney was a quarterback (even at the start of his college career) against zone coverage he runs by instinct into open gaps - to make it easy for his QB, Trask, to find him. So what may look sloppy is actually smart and effective.

... some player that is going to be wearing a cape and completely elevating a team. That is NOT what the draft is for, though most fans seem to look at it that way.

The draft is ultimately for building your team for the next year and beyond. You have to look at it through that lens. Getting better starters is great but if you are counting on the draft to make your team 100% better in that year than you suck at drafting... see Giants from about 2009 onward.

...Toney looks slow?

Relative to Toney's quickness, Usain Bolt looks slow.

Sy indicated there were serious character flags with him. That very likely dropped his grade, and Sy takes all of that into account. Note that Sy didn't say character questions, but seemed to indicate more.

Now, a good kid can get into trouble. Toney hasn't had anything off the field that we know of since 2018.

My thinking is Toney's grade was impacted greatly by off the field factors.

Judge said he's particular about who he brings in the building. They are very comfortable with him. I'm suggesting he's been fully vetted and the character stuff is way behind him.

A good question for Sy might be what he wpuld've given Toney if he was squeaky clean off the field.

Agree that you need to view multiple sources to get a consensus of writers/bloggers. This was also set up by a successful FA period. I was initially puzzled and didn't like the pick, as I was lulled like most of us for months into looking at the top 12 or so players and expected to get Smith.
The entire dynamic changed w the Philly trade & I don't think the team panicked or forced a pick. Fortunately Fields was still there & the Bears called. Trading down, getting picks... (next year #1 is huge) was a success IMO.
Back to Toney - I think its about what tools can you put in your toolbox. I have since read that he's difficult to bring down, excellent low balance, minimal drops, multiple uses out of the slot, running back ability on Jet sweeps, return game etc. All this sets him aside from a typical WR, so I think there is a lot of value there. Comparisons to Kamara are pretty nice too.
Its hard to ignore the impact of playing in the best conference and all of the connections Judge & team seem to have w the SEC (scouts & coaches).
Have to say I like the first 3 picks. Thought we would go OL in the 3rd... but you have to take the best value - not just need.

and look at him as a playmaker and the perspective should change. SY has him ranked and rated in with the WRs and so the ranking makes sense.

From what I have seen and read, just think playmaker, get the ball in his hands type of player.

Would you think of David Meggit as a running back, receiver or a playmaker that can scare defenses and give you flexibility on offense and a punch on special teams.

for character concerns. If those concerns are no longer the case (which is how the giants view it or they wouldn’t have taken him) that means his grade is a lot higher. That’s my take anyway.

In comment 15248258 Giantimistic said:

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and look at him as a playmaker and the perspective should change. SY has him ranked and rated in with the WRs and so the ranking makes sense. From what I have seen and read, just think playmaker, get the ball in his hands type of player. Would you think of David Meggit as a running back, receiver or a playmaker that can scare defenses and give you flexibility on offense and a punch on special teams.

Exactly. He’s like a Percy Harvin type player. I think that’s probably the closest comparable. Meggett was shorter but similar in terms of explosiveness.

His quickness, absolutely.

Sy will do his “what I would have done” piece and explain it to you.

In comment 15248203 cosmicj said:

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That first round fell out really badly for the Giants, before and after the trade down. I’m concerned Toney was stuck down there on the team’s rankings and never received the scrutiny higher ranked players did. The guy’s quickness is elite but he is relatively slow to my eyes for the NFL. He is also something of a gadget player, too. So the question of positional value comes into play. NFL teams generally don’t draft possession receivers and third down backs in the 1st round. Hopefully, I am wrong, but there’s a lot of risk with this one.

What the ?

is blending what the player IS and what he CAN BE. You cannot just assume that everyone will improve their hands or route running. So, how much does potential weigh into grades?

Is a quick twitch explosive playmaker who provides a different flavor than guys like Golloday or Slayton. If they use him right he can be a nice weapon in this offense.

In comment 15248278 WillVAB said:

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Is a quick twitch explosive playmaker who provides a different flavor than guys like Golloday or Slayton. If they use him right he can be a nice weapon in this offense.

It reminds me of Brian Billick when he said you want your WRs to be like a basketball team. We have very unique weapons now. Injuries will be interesting with how they adapt because these players are so unique but they all provide something different for defenses to really have to pick and choose their poison.

Was WRs getting separation on their own and creating easy completions for Daniel Jones.

Toney is one of the best WRs in the draft at getting separation. Even better, his most frequently run route was a quick route over the middle, which is an easy outlet for a QB.

Toney is basically the perfect version of a slot WR in Garrett's offense.

Had zero "wow" players on the field (Saquon Barkley aside).

The team was slow, predictable and extremely easy to defend.

Kadarius Toney would not have been my choice at 20, but he brings something special to the Giants table. He'll be a return man; run power sweeps; WR slip screens; direct snaps from Center; half back options; reverses; and, yes, go out for passes.

He brings a very exciting new dimension to a team that was DESPERATE for that dimension!

and I think it applied in this draft, is that he only really had one year as a true WR. He was a gadget, Swiss Army knife kind of player. Also they say his route running is not yet refined. The bottom line is he’s a very dynamic playmaker at WR and I can see the reason why they drafted him.

In comment 15248270 cosmicj said:

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His quickness, absolutely.

He did run a sub 4.4

Smith has different gears

In comment 15248287 robbieballs2003 said:

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In comment 15248278 WillVAB said: Quote: Is a quick twitch explosive playmaker who provides a different flavor than guys like Golloday or Slayton. If they use him right he can be a nice weapon in this offense. It reminds me of Brian Billick when he said you want your WRs to be like a basketball team. We have very unique weapons now. Injuries will be interesting with how they adapt because these players are so unique but they all provide something different for defenses to really have to pick and choose their poison.

Yep. Now just need to make sure the OL is solid so they can do their thing.

videos of this kid should help. He's probably the most explosive player in the first round.

Think Ike Hilliard with a few ticks up in speed.

somebody just needs to tell him to go down, he's 5'11 190 and plays like hes 6-2 210

appears to handle contact off the line well too

he was a QB when he was recruited to Florida. He has a lot of upside.

If he adapts to the NFL, Toney will hopefully used his quickness not to generate TDS but to gain a couple of extra first downs a game and keep the offense on the field longer. I’d be curious to see if there are any advance stats quantifying the value of those extra first downs.

I'm with you in your concern in your initial comment this thread. While Toney is certainly quick and twitchy and offers a lot of versatility for the O, my main worry is that as fast and quick as his stops and starts and changes of direction (the joystick meme) appear, in the faster, bigger NFL with Cs, Ss and LBs as or nearly as quick, will he be whaled on if those moves are not quick enough?

In comment 15248406 ColHowPepper said:

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I'm with you in your concern in your initial comment this thread. While Toney is certainly quick and twitchy and offers a lot of versatility for the O, my main worry is that as fast and quick as his stops and starts and changes of direction (the joystick meme) appear, in the faster, bigger NFL with Cs, Ss and LBs as or nearly as quick, will he be whaled on if those moves are not quick enough?

This would seem to be a concern for an undersized player. He's quite average sized for a WR.

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There are some teams that have Toney in the top 5 according to one of the very few media resources I trust and speak with. That really surprises me. I won’t give details here but there are a few serious red flags with character, and I just don’t see Toney having a high ceiling.

So he mentions he knows of nfl teams that had him top 5 and then mentions few serious red flags with character right after. The red flag character stuff was mentioned elsewhere. Not sure that played into his actual grade or not but it is telling it was first thing he mentioned after saying nfl teams had him in top 5. By all accounts Giants don’t take character concerns lightly, maybe even more so with Joe Judge at the helm. They obviously missed some things with DeAndre Baker(Gettleman pick before Joe Jusge) so that to me is even more reason they wouldn’t take those issues lightly. Outside of that, it’s the draft and beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder. Where one eval sees rawness/lack of refinement as a wr, another might see that as a player who once he learns those skills can be that much better as a player(untapped potential).

The other thing with Toney that was mentioned by Sy is that the team that drafts him should have a plan and role for him in mind. This is something I’ve heard from other evaluations as well and I think when you go to a team that already has an X option in Golladay, a backfield weapon in Saquon, a steady pro slot in Sheppard and Slayton who has shown some promise as a complimentary downfield threat(miscast as our X for his first two years) then you are absolutely in a position where you can define a specific way that a guy like Toney can help your team, he doesn’t need to be a perfect/polished all around receiver out of the gate. Giants were blitzed at a higher rate than just about any team in the league last year(could not have helped a young oline getting their sea legs in pass pro) and also were last in the nfl as a receiver group in yac...this is Toneys A+ strength and absolutely an area where he can come in and help the Giants counter what defenses where doing last year(Barkley and Golladay will help tremendously in that regard as well).

Like De Vonta Smith can (a top-of-the board guy),he's a top 20; just where he got drafted.

Is that bad ? No-way, we need someone like that. He can be the reincarnation of our Steve Smith, a few years ago, but better. He kind of reminds me a bit of tough guy Anquan Boldin (with better feet and speed)

I think he will replace Shep at slot very quickly.

Ike is a good comp in terms of that. Watch Rondale Moore at top speed vs Toney you will see a difference in top flight speed. Or call it top speed.
I think KT's use will also dial in with more of the college schemes being brought in. I'm thinking a Brandon Aiyuk type impact.

I rarely see the small guys get popped, most of them are very good at alluding the big hit. And while the game speed is quicker in the NFL I don’t think individual players are - elite speed happens in your early 20’s and only goes downhill from there.

In comment 15248443 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 15248406 ColHowPepper said: Quote: I'm with you in your concern in your initial comment this thread. While Toney is certainly quick and twitchy and offers a lot of versatility for the O, my main worry is that as fast and quick as his stops and starts and changes of direction (the joystick meme) appear, in the faster, bigger NFL with Cs, Ss and LBs as or nearly as quick, will he be whaled on if those moves are not quick enough?//// This would seem to be a concern for an undersized player. He's quite average sized for a WR.

Hammer, my worry is not about size, it's about the speed of his quicks: when he does his stops/starts/changes of direction, he leaves college players in second level and secondary grasping at air. In the NFL, is that going to be fast enough to elude tacklers and avoid contact...or not? If not, does he become more 'ordinary'?

addressing my concern, some validity there, I think

I think his quickness, start/stop, and change of direction will serve him well in the pros.

Sy underrated him a bit. Giants reached for him a bit. Probably a second round guy.

That’s all...

Is how he breaks tackles.When is the last time you've seen RECEIVERS break tackles like that ?

he balls the out like no other

Leverage and plays off of that. Could be a Brady/Edelman esque relationship with two QBs taking advantage of the defense. Someone said he runs an “unguardable” whip route, which his highlights seem to bear out. One moment the db is on him, trying to shut down a slant, the next he’s gained seven yards of separation going to the corner.

Our OC has a long history of abusing us with option routes in the middle of the field. Toney can do that inside and out, on top of his other positive traits. Excited to see how Kitchens and Co. influence the passing game this year, too.

And, I guess with Galloday, a healthy Barkley, Slayton's speed (as your # 3/4 guy, as in a pitching rotation, where a back end guy asked to be a 1 or 2 will disappoint) and Shep, Toney can be that "play maker" running jet sweeps, etc.

Kick returners are of less importance these days, with current kick off rules, but perhaps Toney can return punts (assuming ball security, every coaches number one priority) better that Peppers. Dave Meggett was quite a weapon (though he turned out to be a very bad person).

Also, the character stuff...Maybe Plax can have a conversation with the kid about making good decisions as a pro...

In comment 15248528 Jimmy Googs said:

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Sy underrated him a bit. Giants reached for him a bit. Probably a second round guy. That’s all...

So, do you still believe that Evan Engram was a reach? After all, Sy did have a 1st round grade on him (84).

I had the same question about those zillion broken tackles he generated in college. Will that happen in the NFL? We shall see.

It’s going to be interesting to see his statistical impact on the D. The metric I will be looking it is the number of first downs he gains.

In comment 15248667 Klaatu said:

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In comment 15248528 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: Sy underrated him a bit. Giants reached for him a bit. Probably a second round guy. That’s all... So, do you still believe that Evan Engram was a reach? After all, Sy did have a 1st round grade on him (84).

All those TEs were hyped up way too much that year. Engram wasn’t worth #23 back then, and the last 4 years haven’t shown anything different...

yep, I just hope that part of his game translates to next level. With Smith at #11 it was never going to be a question, as he played almost exclusively outside and is so quick in his patterns. So the hope is that in Giants going after (chasing?) the 'next best thing' Toney can do his thing.

In comment 15248678 Jimmy Googs said:

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In comment 15248528 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: Sy underrated him a bit. Giants reached for him a bit. Probably a second round guy. That’s all... [Klaatu] So, do you still believe that Evan Engram was a reach? After all, Sy did have a 1st round grade on him (84).//// All those TEs were hyped up way too much that year. Engram wasn’t worth #23 back then, and the last 4 years haven’t shown anything different...

Ndjoku has established himself as a TE worthy of the position, if not necessarily where he was drafted. EE fails at both criteria.
That said, not clear to me why Klaatu posed the question: Klaatu, are you positing that KT is going to be as big a disappointment as EE?

That he does with Smith. You can line Smith up anywhere on the field and not worry about it. He'll get open and run crisp routes and burn people when he needs to. Toney is nowhere near as developed as Smith. He's a firecracker with the ball in his hands but I dont think you just put in him the slot and watch him work. They have to be creative with him.

This is reinforced when you see guys like Nate Burleson call Toney the steal of the 1st round. Its possible we got an equal player to the one everyone wanted, plus a 1st next year

In comment 15248703 ColHowPepper said:

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In comment 15248678 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: In comment 15248528 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: Sy underrated him a bit. Giants reached for him a bit. Probably a second round guy. That’s all... [Klaatu] So, do you still believe that Evan Engram was a reach? After all, Sy did have a 1st round grade on him (84).//// All those TEs were hyped up way too much that year. Engram wasn’t worth #23 back then, and the last 4 years haven’t shown anything different... Ndjoku has established himself as a TE worthy of the position, if not necessarily where he was drafted. EE fails at both criteria. That said, not clear to me why Klaatu posed the question: Klaatu, are you positing that KT is going to be as big a disappointment as EE?

Where did you get that idea? I disagree with Googs that it was a reach. I really like the pick. Googs always maintained that Engram at 23 was a reach. Well, Sy's grade says otherwise. How Engram's performed since he was drafted doesn't matter.

I can’t add anything new, but I will just echo this....Sy did make a deal out of his gun issues, even though he didn’t break the law. I’m very sure this played into his thinking. Sy even said he is aware of draft guides rating Toney much higher than him, so as you can see, it is not that black and white.

Honestly, just look at the YouTube videos to see for yourself....the kid is a freak in an amazing way. I can see us using him in so many ways if we have creative coaches. For example, on third and short he can take the direct snap and let him show off his athleticism to get thos 1,2, or 3 yards. Plus he can throw very well, and he is a great returner. He only dropped 3 passes so no worry there.

In conclusion, sure we all value and predicate Sy here, but he is just one voice so you have to juxtapose his thoughts with others to see a bigger picture here. I’m sure Synwould be the first to tell you he has made mistakes....I believe this is one of them.

that he shouldn’t have been a first rounder. And have always said that. And that happens to be how it worked out.

Is there more to it?

They will run screens out wide, jet sweeps, run him out of the backfield,. All on opening day. And he will make an impact just from this. He's a great runner. It will be easy to get him the ball.

In comment 15248227 CT Charlie said:

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1) I think Judge, with his background in special teams, gave Toney a lot of bonus points because of his talent as KR and PR. All the evaluators agree that Toney's joystick-quick first-step-shake is truly elite. 2) Some evaluators (not Sy, I don't think) downgraded KT's hands because they were BAD in the Senior Bowl tryouts. In games, over the course of his career, his hands were good. 3) Sy acknowledged character question marks based largely, I think, on the fake gun, real gun, incidents. Did that affect Sy's evaluation, consciously or subconsciously? Hard to say. I happened to like Elijah Moore more, as a player with a lower ceiling perhaps but a higher floor. However, EM is shorter, lighter, and perhaps not as durable (strong? tough?) as KT. Boylhart, who is a VERY eccentric evaluator, ranked Toney as the #1 WR in the draft, and by a surprising margin.

I'm sorry, but this guy had Trevor Lawrence as his QB3. That destroys your credibility from the start

He did improve in his senior year - (10 TDs - 70 receptions). I wonder what is Yards After Catch stats is, I'm guessing it's pretty good.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/kadarius-toney-1.html

I don't think he's a kick or punt returner - 21.6 yds/11.3 yds averages.

I don't think he's a deep out kind of target, which means you don't have to wait to throw him the ball. He's going to stay close and do his damage inside the hash marks.

Realistically, I agree, he's a 2nd or 3rd rounder; but "it is what it is"; he'll provide some exciting plays and help move the chains well.

This pick is reasonable, at #20; not like last year, picking Andrew Thomas 5th overall

In comment 15248822 Manny in CA said:

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This pick is reasonable, at #20; not like last year, picking Andrew Thomas 5th overall

Don’t forget, Toney was not picked 11th, but rather 20th. I hope this mock helps ease your pain...
First round - ( New Window )

why Toney over Bateman? I do think Bateman was universally considered the better WR by just about everyone-- and he also has speed. Just feels like more of a sure thing at #20. This just reminds me a lot of when the Giants took Sterling Shepard with Michael Thomas still on the board. Thomas was higher on literally everyone's boards, but the Giants went w/ Shep instead because they were looking for a certain "type" of WR. IMO you go with the best player. I like Shep, but not as much as I would've liked Thomas. (And you can't convince me that Thomas is SOLELY a product of the N.O. offense + Brees and really we can't tell whose better between the 2, some posters tried to convince me of that when I last brought this up). This certainly feels like the Giants fell in love with Smith and then when they got jobbed by the Eagles they went and found someone who reminds them of Smith. I'm not saying it can't end up turning out well-- but it just feels like that. In the 1st round I feel like it's always better to go w/ the more sure thing.

As being the 14 best WR.


But look at 1st 4 rounds
Sy had rated Azeez Ojulari as 84. This is liek a 1st rd pick.

St had Aaron Robinson rated as 70. That's a 2nd rd pick.

ST Had Toney rated as 77. That's a 3rd rd 4th rd pick.

SY had Elerson Smith as 77. That's a 3rd rd 4th rd pick.


****So with all these picks and getting a number 1 pick from a definite non-title team next year - that's damn good, isn't it?

One thing is I hope Rodgers is coming back to GBay. That's a highly-probable 2 losses for Chicago.

In comment 15249075 giantstock said:

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As being the 14 best WR. But look at 1st 4 rounds Sy had rated Azeez Ojulari as 84. This is like a 1st rd pick. SY had Aaron Robinson rated as 79. That's a 2nd rd pick. ST Had Toney rated as 77. That's a 3rd rd 4th rd pick. SY had Elerson Smith as 77. That's a 3rd rd 4th rd pick. ****So with all these picks and getting a number 1 pick from a definite non-title team next year - that's damn good, isn't it? One thing is I hope Rodgers is coming back to GBay. That's a highly-probable 2 losses for Chicago.

I mean to say 79 for Aaron not 70.

Look at the totality of the draft. That's what imo you need to understand.

How much difference is there between a consensus 4th WR and 8th in this draft? The Giants have their number 1.

Also- this ensures if Shep gets hurt you have his spot filled. And secondly at some point soon his salary will be greatly reduced or he'll move on.

Defense to account for him. They will have to make adjustments. Right now, the only player who has to be accounted for is Barkley. Not Golladay, not Shepard, not Engram or Rudolph.

In comment 15249044 Leg of Theismann said:

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why Toney over Bateman? I do think Bateman was universally considered the better WR by just about everyone-- and he also has speed. Just feels like more of a sure thing at #20. This just reminds me a lot of when the Giants took Sterling Shepard with Michael Thomas still on the board. Thomas was higher on literally everyone's boards, but the Giants went w/ Shep instead because they were looking for a certain "type" of WR. IMO you go with the best player. I like Shep, but not as much as I would've liked Thomas. (And you can't convince me that Thomas is SOLELY a product of the N.O. offense + Brees and really we can't tell whose better between the 2, some posters tried to convince me of that when I last brought this up). This certainly feels like the Giants fell in love with Smith and then when they got jobbed by the Eagles they went and found someone who reminds them of Smith. I'm not saying it can't end up turning out well-- but it just feels like that. In the 1st round I feel like it's always better to go w/ the more sure thing.

I think they went for the player they believe has a higher ceiling. Bateman’s floor is prolly higher. Toney did go for 8-158 in the SEC Title game. He has a unique ability to be immediately open. He just isn’t a polished route runner just yet. He cuts so well, the team must think he can develop that.

He's fast enough, has great feet and balance and has a fierce mentality (breaks a lot of tackles). I think he will be an outstanding slot.

He's fast enough, has great feet and balance and has a fierce mentality (breaks a lot of tackles). I think he will be an outstanding slot.

That’s going to create some polarity in how he’s viewed. With the ball in his hands he’s about as good as it gets. His YAC ability is unreal, he’s slippery and somehow just bounces off dudes at his size. The whole wr part is definitely a question though. He’s only been playing the position for 3 years, so there’s potential to develop there but he strikes me as a flex/gadget guy. Probably could have gotten that in Rondale Moore later. I don’t have a lot of confidence in the offense we ran last year being able to fully tap into that potential but there’s a chance it evolves and Toney contributes to that himself.

i'll take that all day

In comment 15249355 Jerry's Kids said:

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In comment 15249044 Leg of Theismann said: Quote: why Toney over Bateman? I do think Bateman was universally considered the better WR by just about everyone-- and he also has speed. Just feels like more of a sure thing at #20. This just reminds me a lot of when the Giants took Sterling Shepard with Michael Thomas still on the board. Thomas was higher on literally everyone's boards, but the Giants went w/ Shep instead because they were looking for a certain "type" of WR. IMO you go with the best player. I like Shep, but not as much as I would've liked Thomas. (And you can't convince me that Thomas is SOLELY a product of the N.O. offense + Brees and really we can't tell whose better between the 2, some posters tried to convince me of that when I last brought this up). This certainly feels like the Giants fell in love with Smith and then when they got jobbed by the Eagles they went and found someone who reminds them of Smith. I'm not saying it can't end up turning out well-- but it just feels like that. In the 1st round I feel like it's always better to go w/ the more sure thing. I think they went for the player they believe has a higher ceiling. Bateman’s floor is prolly higher. Toney did go for 8-158 in the SEC Title game. He has a unique ability to be immediately open. He just isn’t a polished route runner just yet. He cuts so well, the team must think he can develop that.

That's a good point. I have to say watching these highlights actually feels like Pitts and Toney were the 2 best players on the field that day-- but the fact Mac Jones had all day to throw and Najee Harris had massive holes to run through was really the difference-maker in the end. Trask was getting sacked at the worst times and had that one costly fumble-- but besides that Florida almost won while literally the entire game plan for Florida was a) get the ball to Toney, b) get the ball to Pitts, c) get the ball to Toney, etc...
SEC Title Game 2020 - ( New Window )

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Link - ( New Window )

AR 15 in his possession, even legally, rather than some other evidence of “bad character”? I wouldn’t be surprised and would not hold Sys grade as a gold standard. I’m sure his coaches were contacted and the Giants went forward at 20 based on that rather than overinflated reaction to weapon issues.