While I am a huge Giant's fan, have been on the board forever, and had season tix for decades, I am far from a draft expert...I tend to be a wait, see who they picked, and even further, see how they play, sort of fan.
But, there is so much love for the big picture of Giant's Draft 2021 and I am a bit confused about one facet. Thanks for helping me get it...I want to feel good about what's gone on so far.
Specifically, I am confused about the first pick...Kadarius Toney.
We all have great faith, and great appreciation, for the tremendous work Sy does before and during the draft and, like most others here, if Sy likes a guy, that's good enough for me.
So, what gives on Toney, if Sy had him as the 14th best wide receiver, with a 77 grade that is deemed as a" 3rd rounder – Should be able to rotate by end of rookie year – Year 2/3 starter"
Thanks, not looking for a debate, I admit my ignorance, just trying to figure out the conflicting information (excitement for the pick v Sy's very educated/generally spot on evaluation)!
His evaluations get a “home field advantage” because he posts here.
He’s not right about everyone. He’s not wrong about everyone. He’s one well informed and articulated opinion.
But there are some things he does really really well, like stop on a dime and shake defenders out of their shoes. I mean he’s ridiculous out there, looking like Allen Iverson crossing people over.
Those traits are probably what the Giants see and think, he’s far from a finished product right now but when he is, watch out.
So Sys not necessarily wrong but it could still be a phenomenal pick.
The guy’s quickness is elite but he is relatively slow to my eyes for the NFL. He is also something of a gadget player, too. So the question of positional value comes into play. NFL teams generally don’t draft possession receivers and third down backs in the 1st round. Hopefully, I am wrong, but there’s a lot of risk with this one.
He's going to be able to create immediate separation for easy outlet passes, especially when teams decide to blitz. He's got great short area quickness so he should be able to rack up run after the catch yards on those plays too.
We didn't have many yards after the catch last year and Toney should bring that in spades. Will make life easier for Daniel Jones.
He acknowledges that some sources had Toney as a top 5 receiver.
I respect Sy....but thought he was way off base on him, but that is ok. Different strokes for different folks.
Toney is a "Barkley" imo...an offensive weapon.
Kadarius Toney (Florida WR) vs Alabama - ( New Window )
2) Some evaluators (not Sy, I don't think) downgraded KT's hands because they were BAD in the Senior Bowl tryouts. In games, over the course of his career, his hands were good.
3) Sy acknowledged character question marks based largely, I think, on the fake gun, real gun, incidents. Did that affect Sy's evaluation, consciously or subconsciously? Hard to say.
I happened to like Elijah Moore more, as a player with a lower ceiling perhaps but a higher floor. However, EM is shorter, lighter, and perhaps not as durable (strong? tough?) as KT. Boylhart, who is a VERY eccentric evaluator, ranked Toney as the #1 WR in the draft, and by a surprising margin.
- purely as a WR, I get it - he's not Smith. But Smith is not Toney, either. Toney was a star QB in high school and you will find him listed at "RB" earlier in his college career. I think he's a great all-around offensive weapon especially on third down. It's true his straight line speed does not appear to be elite. But he's a crazy good runner with the ball in his hands.
The draft is ultimately for building your team for the next year and beyond. You have to look at it through that lens. Getting better starters is great but if you are counting on the draft to make your team 100% better in that year than you suck at drafting... see Giants from about 2009 onward.
Relative to Toney's quickness, Usain Bolt looks slow.
Now, a good kid can get into trouble. Toney hasn't had anything off the field that we know of since 2018.
My thinking is Toney's grade was impacted greatly by off the field factors.
Judge said he's particular about who he brings in the building. They are very comfortable with him. I'm suggesting he's been fully vetted and the character stuff is way behind him.
A good question for Sy might be what he wpuld've given Toney if he was squeaky clean off the field.
The entire dynamic changed w the Philly trade & I don't think the team panicked or forced a pick. Fortunately Fields was still there & the Bears called. Trading down, getting picks... (next year #1 is huge) was a success IMO.
Back to Toney - I think its about what tools can you put in your toolbox. I have since read that he's difficult to bring down, excellent low balance, minimal drops, multiple uses out of the slot, running back ability on Jet sweeps, return game etc. All this sets him aside from a typical WR, so I think there is a lot of value there. Comparisons to Kamara are pretty nice too.
Its hard to ignore the impact of playing in the best conference and all of the connections Judge & team seem to have w the SEC (scouts & coaches).
Have to say I like the first 3 picks. Thought we would go OL in the 3rd... but you have to take the best value - not just need.
From what I have seen and read, just think playmaker, get the ball in his hands type of player.
Would you think of David Meggit as a running back, receiver or a playmaker that can scare defenses and give you flexibility on offense and a punch on special teams.
From what I have seen and read, just think playmaker, get the ball in his hands type of player.
Would you think of David Meggit as a running back, receiver or a playmaker that can scare defenses and give you flexibility on offense and a punch on special teams.
Exactly. He’s like a Percy Harvin type player. I think that’s probably the closest comparable. Meggett was shorter but similar in terms of explosiveness.
The guy’s quickness is elite but he is relatively slow to my eyes for the NFL. He is also something of a gadget player, too. So the question of positional value comes into play. NFL teams generally don’t draft possession receivers and third down backs in the 1st round. Hopefully, I am wrong, but there’s a lot of risk with this one.
What the ?
It reminds me of Brian Billick when he said you want your WRs to be like a basketball team. We have very unique weapons now. Injuries will be interesting with how they adapt because these players are so unique but they all provide something different for defenses to really have to pick and choose their poison.
Toney is one of the best WRs in the draft at getting separation. Even better, his most frequently run route was a quick route over the middle, which is an easy outlet for a QB.
Toney is basically the perfect version of a slot WR in Garrett's offense.
Had zero "wow" players on the field (Saquon Barkley aside).
The team was slow, predictable and extremely easy to defend.
Kadarius Toney would not have been my choice at 20, but he brings something special to the Giants table. He'll be a return man; run power sweeps; WR slip screens; direct snaps from Center; half back options; reverses; and, yes, go out for passes.
He brings a very exciting new dimension to a team that was DESPERATE for that dimension!
Quote:
Is a quick twitch explosive playmaker who provides a different flavor than guys like Golloday or Slayton. If they use him right he can be a nice weapon in this offense.
It reminds me of Brian Billick when he said you want your WRs to be like a basketball team. We have very unique weapons now. Injuries will be interesting with how they adapt because these players are so unique but they all provide something different for defenses to really have to pick and choose their poison.
Yep. Now just need to make sure the OL is solid so they can do their thing.
Think Ike Hilliard with a few ticks up in speed.
somebody just needs to tell him to go down, he's 5'11 190 and plays like hes 6-2 210
appears to handle contact off the line well too
This would seem to be a concern for an undersized player. He's quite average sized for a WR.
There are some teams that have Toney in the top 5 according to one of the very few media resources I trust and speak with. That really surprises me. I won’t give details here but there are a few serious red flags with character, and I just don’t see Toney having a high ceiling.
So he mentions he knows of nfl teams that had him top 5 and then mentions few serious red flags with character right after. The red flag character stuff was mentioned elsewhere. Not sure that played into his actual grade or not but it is telling it was first thing he mentioned after saying nfl teams had him in top 5. By all accounts Giants don’t take character concerns lightly, maybe even more so with Joe Judge at the helm. They obviously missed some things with DeAndre Baker(Gettleman pick before Joe Jusge) so that to me is even more reason they wouldn’t take those issues lightly. Outside of that, it’s the draft and beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder. Where one eval sees rawness/lack of refinement as a wr, another might see that as a player who once he learns those skills can be that much better as a player(untapped potential).
The other thing with Toney that was mentioned by Sy is that the team that drafts him should have a plan and role for him in mind. This is something I’ve heard from other evaluations as well and I think when you go to a team that already has an X option in Golladay, a backfield weapon in Saquon, a steady pro slot in Sheppard and Slayton who has shown some promise as a complimentary downfield threat(miscast as our X for his first two years) then you are absolutely in a position where you can define a specific way that a guy like Toney can help your team, he doesn’t need to be a perfect/polished all around receiver out of the gate. Giants were blitzed at a higher rate than just about any team in the league last year(could not have helped a young oline getting their sea legs in pass pro) and also were last in the nfl as a receiver group in yac...this is Toneys A+ strength and absolutely an area where he can come in and help the Giants counter what defenses where doing last year(Barkley and Golladay will help tremendously in that regard as well).
Like De Vonta Smith can (a top-of-the board guy),he's a top 20; just where he got drafted.
Is that bad ? No-way, we need someone like that. He can be the reincarnation of our Steve Smith, a few years ago, but better. He kind of reminds me a bit of tough guy Anquan Boldin (with better feet and speed)
I think he will replace Shep at slot very quickly.
I think KT's use will also dial in with more of the college schemes being brought in. I'm thinking a Brandon Aiyuk type impact.
Quote: I'm with you in your concern in your initial comment this thread. While Toney is certainly quick and twitchy and offers a lot of versatility for the O, my main worry is that as fast and quick as his stops and starts and changes of direction (the joystick meme) appear, in the faster, bigger NFL with Cs, Ss and LBs as or nearly as quick, will he be whaled on if those moves are not quick enough?////
This would seem to be a concern for an undersized player. He's quite average sized for a WR.