Toney PLUS Chicago 1st is better than Waddle or Smith

We likely would have had to give at least our 3rd to swap with Dallas

Toney
Robinson
Bears 2022 1st
Bears 2022 4th

Vs

Devonta Smith

Toney. So, so explosive. Exactly what the giants needed. Look at every other offense in the league. Look at how effectively they use WR screens. The giants hardly ever take advantage of screens in the passing game. It adds another dimension to the offense. I think that he will make a HUGE difference in his rookie year. If the offensive line can be at least average, look out.

nor Waddle were available when the Giants picked so it's irrelevant.

but, and don't take this the wrong way, it seems like this board is "talking themselves into" Kadarious Toney.

he may be great and wind up best WR in the whole draft class, the next Tyreek Hill, who knows, but if you knew on Thursday that later that night the Giants were getting a WR in the first round, only it was Kadarious Toney, most fans would be "throwing their remotes".

Yes, the trade down soothes the pick, because next year's first is valuable, but it is impossible at this time to say which is better. If DeVonta Smith becomes the next Tyreek Hill and Toney is Sinorice Moss 2.0 (or whoever you want to use as an underachiever) and the Bears pick is DeAndre Baker (or whoever) is it still better?

no, so for now you can say you'd rather have the player we have and the pick, but is it better?

TBD.

In comment 15249941 pjcas18 said:

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nor Waddle were available when the Giants picked so it's irrelevant. but, and don't take this the wrong way, it seems like this board is "talking themselves into" Kadarious Toney. he may be great and wind up best WR in the whole draft class, the next Tyreek Hill, who knows, but if you knew on Thursday that later that night the Giants were getting a WR in the first round, only it was Kadarious Toney, most fans would be "throwing their remotes". Yes, the trade down soothes the pick, because next year's first is valuable, but it is impossible at this time to say which is better. If DeVonta Smith becomes the next Tyreek Hill and Toney is Sinorice Moss 2.0 (or whoever you want to use as an underachiever) and the Bears pick is DeAndre Baker (or whoever) is it still better? no, so for now you can say you'd rather have the player we have and the pick, but is it better? TBD.

I knew zip about Toney. Since he wasn’t discussed all that much here, I learned what I could from Sy..Having read all I could about him, The good so far outweighs any bad, that I’m excited about his versatility and effectiveness. Yes, TBD.

The draft game. If they all only reach their floor level, the Giants come up short.

Of the 3, Giants probably got the biggest bust potential with Toney, but at least they tried something different.

I think it’s a blessing in disguise that we were able to get someone versatile with Toney’s characteristics that can play in the slot as opposed to an outside receiver.

To add a first rounder on top of that makes it a home run.

And offered Smith for Toney, next years first, next years 4th and Cater Coughlin (trying to equate the value of the trade up here), would you take it?

I'm thrilled with Toney, and I only knew a little about him, but I love what I have seen so far.

Sy had a 3rd round grade him on - as has been discussed - so again - if people knew before the draft this would be the guy that's partly my point.

if you look, you see posts of "this analyst or that analyst says Toney is best WR in the class" or "this one analyst or talking head went to scout Pitts and couldn't take his eyes off Toney"

that's what I mean by talking themselves into the pick - and much of it is probably not many people knew much about him - unlike Smith or Waddle.

I can see a third round grade on him if you are trying to turn him into a traditional WR. But as a gadget player he is a first round value for me. He’s adding something new to the offense, not adding a better player than one that we already have.

Forget the jet sweeps to EE and forget swing passes to Dion Lewis that went nowhere. Now you get the ball to a Jackrabbit that can break it big every time.

Urban Meyer says Kadarius Toney is the player drafted before 25 who broke his heart that he couldn't pick.

could be extremely valuable. No question.

But losing out on DeVonta Smith was a blow to the NYG front office & coaches, who by all accounts, wanted him badly. Going to Eagles is only a bit more salt in that wound.

Especially considering the cap relief that we got from trading into a lower draft slot.

however we could have done better than Toney at 1.20. That being said, the trade was a good one and I can't believe I'm saying this but...good move by Gettleman.

is clearly better than Waddle or Smith alone.

That pick next year is really superb, since that draft will be much better than this years. As I heard DG explain, some college teams did not even play last year, many players were allowed to stay with another year of eligibility, and the medicals, interview process and combine will be back.

I have also pre talked myself into any unexpected Giant high pick by using the In Joe Judge I Trust rule. He knows what is best for the team he is trying to build. So if he thinks Toney is the better fit at 20, even though I might have gone for Paye or an OL, then IJJIT. :-)

Besides that, there were people like Burleson who did a piece on Toney pre draft that he would be an absolute steal for any team, especially a team who has a big WR target opposite him. I don't think he figured he would end up with Golladay and the Giants, but that is some pretty good backup to those who still need to talk themselves into Toney.

A few interesting Toney items, he is a former QB who supposedly had the best arm on the Florida team. I heard David Carr say that Toney was at a QB camp at some point with Daniel Jones, so they already know each other. I think it is a plus for a WR to be a former QB, helps them understand how to position themselves and help the QB find the target, etc.

plenty of pundits had a much higher grade. So did NY obviously. He's got a ton of talent, a lot of which he's just scratched the surface. If he keeps his nose clean, he will be a great addition.

In comment 15249977 giantBCP said:

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Especially considering the cap relief that we got from trading into a lower draft slot.

Don't think so in the slightest. Have you read anything like that in the reactions that occurred from round one?

In comment 15249950 Jolly Blue Giant said:

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And offered Smith for Toney, next years first, next years 4th and Cater Coughlin (trying to equate the value of the trade up here), would you take it?

No way. I'd rather have Toney costing one 1st rounder, then have Smith costing me 2 first rounders in your proposal.

This worked out just fine for us....

his highlights red zone efficiency should rise drastically. His pivot step on release is ankle breaking couple that with Golladay on a fade route and SB in the backfield the D will be on their heels all Jones has to do is read and execute properly.

Toney is about the same height but almost 30lbs heavier.

this kid has ridiculous reaction, twitch and toughness

I dont think that is good value for a 1st round pick. Think of what we have dealt with for Saquon the past 2 seasons.

In comment 15249941 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

If DeVonta Smith becomes the next Tyreek Hill and Toney is Sinorice Moss 2.0 (or whoever you want to use as an underachiever) and the Bears pick is DeAndre Baker (or whoever) is it still better?

Or more likely:

If Toney becomes the next Tyreek Hill and DeVonta Smith is Sinorice Moss 2.0 (or whoever you want to use as an underachiever) and the Bears pick is Aaron Donald (or whoever) is it still better?

In comment 15250032 Rambo said:

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I dont think that is good value for a 1st round pick. Think of what we have dealt with for Saquon the past 2 seasons.

Where do you get that? He had w injuries in college, one of which was not disclosed. Devonta Smith dislocated a finger and shut himself down for about 3 months including staying away from his pro day.

In comment 15249941 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

nor Waddle were available when the Giants picked so it's irrelevant. but, and don't take this the wrong way, it seems like this board is "talking themselves into" Kadarious Toney. he may be great and wind up best WR in the whole draft class, the next Tyreek Hill, who knows, but if you knew on Thursday that later that night the Giants were getting a WR in the first round, only it was Kadarious Toney, most fans would be "throwing their remotes". Yes, the trade down soothes the pick, because next year's first is valuable, but it is impossible at this time to say which is better. If DeVonta Smith becomes the next Tyreek Hill and Toney is Sinorice Moss 2.0 (or whoever you want to use as an underachiever) and the Bears pick is DeAndre Baker (or whoever) is it still better? no, so for now you can say you'd rather have the player we have and the pick, but is it better? TBD.

I for one am not talking myself into him. I wanted to trade down pretty much from jump street. I did not like the size of the two WRs from Bama. I wanted Toney in the 2nd, though its painfully apparent he would not have been there. I absolutely prefer our haul over just one of Smith or Waddle.

In comment 15250215 Stan in LA said:

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In comment 15249941 pjcas18 said: Quote: If DeVonta Smith becomes the next Tyreek Hill and Toney is Sinorice Moss 2.0 (or whoever you want to use as an underachiever) and the Bears pick is DeAndre Baker (or whoever) is it still better? Or more likely: If Toney becomes the next Tyreek Hill and DeVonta Smith is Sinorice Moss 2.0 (or whoever you want to use as an underachiever) and the Bears pick is Aaron Donald (or whoever) is it still better?

then you have your answer, point is it is TBD if the question is which is BETTER vs which you PREFER, maybe a subtle difference but better is impossible to know today.

Waddle was picked long before the Giants so he is irrelevant to this. Completely think it is BS that this is a blow to the front office. They know perfectly well that teams can move ahead you every draft. The question becomes do you want to give up more to secure that. In this situation it was not warranted.

It is funny how you have people constantly saying to trade X player for a draft pick and here we are getting extra 1st and 3rd from an expected bad team and people are unhappy

Would I like to have D. Smith, absolutely, but not at the cost of moving to get him.

In comment 15249941 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

nor Waddle were available when the Giants picked so it's irrelevant. but, and don't take this the wrong way, it seems like this board is "talking themselves into" Kadarious Toney. he may be great and wind up best WR in the whole draft class, the next Tyreek Hill, who knows, but if you knew on Thursday that later that night the Giants were getting a WR in the first round, only it was Kadarious Toney, most fans would be "throwing their remotes". Yes, the trade down soothes the pick, because next year's first is valuable, but it is impossible at this time to say which is better. If DeVonta Smith becomes the next Tyreek Hill and Toney is Sinorice Moss 2.0 (or whoever you want to use as an underachiever) and the Bears pick is DeAndre Baker (or whoever) is it still better? no, so for now you can say you'd rather have the player we have and the pick, but is it better? TBD.

If it was that we took Toney over Smith, then yes, people would be upset. But, the reality is Smith wasn't there as we hoped. So, instead we got possibly the next best WR plus 2 draft picks next year. How can anyone complain about that? And, no, I wouldn't have traded up for Smith, even though he was a guy I preferred. I am happy with the way things turned out overall.

praised by the talking heads since the 05 draft. Yes 07 was a great draft but the pocks were not initially as well regarded.

In comment 15249941 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

nor Waddle were available when the Giants picked so it's irrelevant. but, and don't take this the wrong way, it seems like this board is "talking themselves into" Kadarious Toney. he may be great and wind up best WR in the whole draft class, the next Tyreek Hill, who knows, but if you knew on Thursday that later that night the Giants were getting a WR in the first round, only it was Kadarious Toney, most fans would be "throwing their remotes".

Well sure, fans aren't doing the legwork to know all the WRs in the draft. If you only go by the perception of fans, there were no other WR in the draft after Chase, Smith, and Waddle. When you don't know the other players, it's easy to assume it was a reach pick.

The reality is it was always going to be a good chance that Smith and Waddle were not going to be there at 11.

The real problem is we as a group expected to get one of them.

develops into Curtis Samuel and Smith into Marvin Harrison. Fast forward next year and we pick 15 and draft another Curtis Samuel level player, is the trade a wash?

I actually think I’d prefer the trade just because there’s a chance the Bears draft top 5 next year. That defense is getting old and injured and they are about to go into a season with a rookie QB and Dalton.

In comment 15250885 Zeke's Alibi said:

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develops into Curtis Samuel and Smith into Marvin Harrison. Fast forward next year and we pick 15 and draft another Curtis Samuel level player, is the trade a wash? I actually think I’d prefer the trade just because there’s a chance the Bears draft top 5 next year. That defense is getting old and injured and they are about to go into a season with a rookie QB and Dalton.

I fear that the rookie QB will be better than we think. This isn't 98, rookie QBs are often successful out of the gate.

In comment 15251013 BestFeature said:

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In comment 15250885 Zeke's Alibi said: Quote: develops into Curtis Samuel and Smith into Marvin Harrison. Fast forward next year and we pick 15 and draft another Curtis Samuel level player, is the trade a wash? I actually think I’d prefer the trade just because there’s a chance the Bears draft top 5 next year. That defense is getting old and injured and they are about to go into a season with a rookie QB and Dalton. I fear that the rookie QB will be better than we think. This isn't 98, rookie QBs are often successful out of the gate.

He’s still a rookie and they won 8 games last year. Fields may be able to give them replacement level play of what they had last year just because his athleticism, but I don’t think Fields is going to be good and their defense is getting older in key spots. I see a 7 win football team if Rogers doesn’t get traded.

Peppers
Lawrence
Ximines
(Was there another guy)

Vs.

OBJ


All In all That was definitely a nice win

Great haul though— honestly all 3 guys are likely our day 1 starters this year and I have confidence they’ll be instrumental in us being a top 10 defense. I’ll take that over current OBJ for sure

Judge is a special teams guy and knows how important that unit is to winning.

I predict Toney will be a Top 10 returner. I'm not sure if he is a KO return guy but perhaps that too. He is very athletic and quick and if he gets a seem you aren't going to catch him from behind.

As for the slot, he needs a year of work learning and he has that opportunity with this team. I see him being worked into the game as a 4th receiver and when Sterling Shepard gets hurt he will get his opportunity.

I can see Toney on gadget plays too, running and possibly throwing and what not.

I think this team is being built for a 2022 run hence the picks next year.

The 2022 #1 may or may not be the 15-20 range we predict as Rodgers may end up leaving GB and that makes them average, as average as the Bears. If the Bears win this division the trade becomes "OK" assuming we draft a top interior OL (I believe it will be a position of need) in the 20's that starts and upgrades. That is my best guess anyhow.