Completeness is a moving target. There's always room for improvement and upgrades. Players leave or decline. Opponents identify weaknesses and scheme to exploit them. Your own schemes evolve in response, and you discover different needs.
The 1980s Giants defense was about as complete as you could ask for, and they still gave up points and kept drafting defense.
Complete meaning? If we lose Blake Martinez to injury then what? If we lose Leonard Williams to i jury then what? I dont think complete is a thing when it comes to roster building
He's off the field a good percentage of time in favor of 3 safeties (Peppers becomes the defacto inside backer). There's no gaping holes, put it that way.
Ideally they'd have 2-3 STUD pass rushers -- like their past SB teams had. IF Ojulari turns into one, they could still use two more. Not betting on Carter or Ximines to become a stud.
And it also doesn't mean that injuries can't fuck everything up. But on paper this might be the best D we've had in a while, though that doesn't say much. Also on paper this is the best team we've had in a while. I'm just concerned about the OL AGAIN.
No such thing as a complete defense. I suppose the '85 Bears were closest.
I think if Olujari is the real deal (10-12 sacks) they will be a very good defense. Maybe top 8.
Can't have faith in Carter or Ximines and we don't know what we are going to have yet in Azeez and Elerson...
But we haven't had a inside pass rusher like Leonard Williams in either of those Eli superbowl's... we had talent there in Robbins, Cofield, young Linval, old Canty etc... but Dex and Leo... they are just different in my book, 1st round talents, a tier above the guys we've had on the inside of the DL... Plus Blake, we haven't had that since AP... Plus this secondary... this secondary is probably as good as its ever been or at least in recent memory... no such thing as complete but i think its fair for all of us to expect that its going to be a really good unit in 2021.
we really have an impact player from the rush position? Probably not. I could see our 1st pick next year on an OLB.
My sentiments exactly; already looking for draft prospects in that area.
Kayvon out of Oregon is the next Myles Garrett type of guy... he's draft eligible next year when we have two 1s... it's never too early. Purdue has a good edge guy too. Probably a few others. Next years edge group has the talent at the top of the draft that this years class didn't
that is not a knock on Ojulari. He was my favorite edge rusher in this draft. I'm thrilled we got him. I expect him to eventually be a 8-12 sack guy.
But I'm talking about another edge player coming from the opposite side who would threaten to get 14-16 sacks per season. That would make any defense reach another level.
in the first four rounds next year can fill a lot of holes, especially in what is projected to be a stacked draft class. Can probably even use a few picks to move up from the third round and have four picks in the first two rounds. Giants are getting close to looking for elite difference makers over quantity. As Eric mentioned, A true stud to pair with Ojulari up front is a good bet and what ever positions are deemed the weakest after this season plays out.
No such thing as a complete defense. I suppose the '85 Bears were closest.
I think if Olujari is the real deal (10-12 sacks) they will be a very good defense. Maybe top 8.
Agree about the '85 Bears, but the league figured out their scheme in a couple of years.
If we’re looking forward the Giants didn’t really replace Tomlinson. They may be able to replace him by committee this year but I’d prefer to add a young stud to add to LW and Lawrence.
The LB position next to Martinez is a question mark.
Assuming Ojulari is a stud they need someone opposite who’s capable of being an elite rusher.
a team has every position manned by an elite player. But that's not realistic. If a team can have adequate role players at positions, the right outstanding talents sprinkled among them can make everyone more effective.
a team has every position manned by an elite player. But that's not realistic. If a team can have adequate role players at positions, the right outstanding talents sprinkled among them can make everyone more effective.
Of course you have to find adequate role players to bookend the elite players, I'm still looking for those. Examples: Clyde Simmons as Reggie White's bookend at right end opposite Reggie White's left end, or Carl Banks as Lawrence Taylor as the SAM to Taylor's rushbacker.
Complete? No..As mentioned above, very few if any teams are
No such thing as a complete defense. I suppose the '85 Bears were closest.
I think if Olujari is the real deal (10-12 sacks) they will be a very good defense. Maybe top 8.
Agree about the '85 Bears, but the league figured out their scheme in a couple of years.
that is not a knock on Ojulari. He was my favorite edge rusher in this draft. I'm thrilled we got him. I expect him to eventually be a 8-12 sack guy.
But I'm talking about another edge player coming from the opposite side who would threaten to get 14-16 sacks per season. That would make any defense reach another level.
Remember, Strahan had Osi.
LT had Leonard Marshall.
I have a feeling he'll play on both sides to help get that dual attack affect.
If we’re looking forward the Giants didn’t really replace Tomlinson. They may be able to replace him by committee this year but I’d prefer to add a young stud to add to LW and Lawrence.
The LB position next to Martinez is a question mark.
Assuming Ojulari is a stud they need someone opposite who’s capable of being an elite rusher.
Everything else should be set.
Committee would seem to be the way they're going with Shelton and Johnson. I thought that Lawrence would fit the mold just as well but a lot of people on here think that's a waste of him. If so, why not have him as a one-two tackle punch with Williams, somewhat like what the Cowboys of yore had with Bob Lilly and Jethro Pugh?
And yes, the Giants need another good if not great edge rusher opposite Ojulari if he proves to be a stud; unfortunately the Patriot system (which the Giants are presumably running) doesn't like edge rushers; once they become good they jettison them (read: Chandler Jones).
a team has every position manned by an elite player. But that's not realistic. If a team can have adequate role players at positions, the right outstanding talents sprinkled among them can make everyone more effective.
Of course you have to find adequate role players to bookend the elite players, I'm still looking for those. Examples: Clyde Simmons as Reggie White's bookend at right end opposite Reggie White's left end, or Carl Banks as Lawrence Taylor as the SAM to Taylor's rushbacker.
I would argue that Carl Banks was something more than just an adequate role player. And then there was this guy named Carson. ALL 3 LB'S are in The Hall of Fame, normally not the house of JAG's. Taylor wasn't just an elite player, he was a GERNERATIONAL talent.
Crowder looked real good beside Martinez last year. Let's see if he continues to develop, and Ragland was a thumper coming out of school. Both players have the potential to be MORE than just adequate role player, IMO.
a team has every position manned by an elite player. But that's not realistic. If a team can have adequate role players at positions, the right outstanding talents sprinkled among them can make everyone more effective.
Of course you have to find adequate role players to bookend the elite players, I'm still looking for those. Examples: Clyde Simmons as Reggie White's bookend at right end opposite Reggie White's left end, or Carl Banks as Lawrence Taylor as the SAM to Taylor's rushbacker.
I would argue that Carl Banks was something more than just an adequate role player. And then there was this guy named Carson. ALL 3 LB'S are in The Hall of Fame, normally not the house of JAG's. Taylor wasn't just an elite player, he was a GERNERATIONAL talent.
Crowder looked real good beside Martinez last year. Let's see if he continues to develop, and Ragland was a thumper coming out of school. Both players have the potential to be MORE than just adequate role player, IMO.
Banks is in the Hall of Fame? I don't see him on the list.
a team has every position manned by an elite player. But that's not realistic. If a team can have adequate role players at positions, the right outstanding talents sprinkled among them can make everyone more effective.
Of course you have to find adequate role players to bookend the elite players, I'm still looking for those. Examples: Clyde Simmons as Reggie White's bookend at right end opposite Reggie White's left end, or Carl Banks as Lawrence Taylor as the SAM to Taylor's rushbacker.
I would argue that Carl Banks was something more than just an adequate role player. And then there was this guy named Carson. ALL 3 LB'S are in The Hall of Fame, normally not the house of JAG's. Taylor wasn't just an elite player, he was a GERNERATIONAL talent.
Crowder looked real good beside Martinez last year. Let's see if he continues to develop, and Ragland was a thumper coming out of school. Both players have the potential to be MORE than just adequate role player, IMO.
Banks is in the Hall of Fame? I don't see him on the list.
a team has every position manned by an elite player. But that's not realistic. If a team can have adequate role players at positions, the right outstanding talents sprinkled among them can make everyone more effective.
Of course you have to find adequate role players to bookend the elite players, I'm still looking for those. Examples: Clyde Simmons as Reggie White's bookend at right end opposite Reggie White's left end, or Carl Banks as Lawrence Taylor as the SAM to Taylor's rushbacker.
I would argue that Carl Banks was something more than just an adequate role player. And then there was this guy named Carson. ALL 3 LB'S are in The Hall of Fame, normally not the house of JAG's. Taylor wasn't just an elite player, he was a GERNERATIONAL talent.
Crowder looked real good beside Martinez last year. Let's see if he continues to develop, and Ragland was a thumper coming out of school. Both players have the potential to be MORE than just adequate role player, IMO.
Banks is in the Hall of Fame? I don't see him on the list.
Sorry, you're right. Was victimized by Google. He was however both a Pro-Bowl and All-Pro LB, and a member of the 1980's All Decade team. Far more than just a mediocre role player. My point remains the same.
And Harry used to kill anything that moved! :-)
Graham Is Getting A Reputation As A 'Mad Scientist'
so my guess is a lot of players on defense will be getting situational snaps in 2021.
The breadth of players available on defense will likely keep more players fresh in the 4th quarter. Hopefully the 4th quarter defensive fads and outright melt downs are a think of the past.
They’re going to be one of the better defenses in the league unless Leonard Williams was playing for that contract and regresses. But, they have depth in a few places that was lacking. Have to hope that Blake Martinez doesn’t get hurt. This should be the best Giants defense in a very long time & it feels good to say that.
Graham is not going to have to do crazy things to get a pass rush. For one, he has a secondary that can actually cover all over the field. Didn’t have that last year. Has a pass rush on the opposite side of Leonard Williams. Didn’t have that last year. What can make this team scary good is if Dexter Lawrence can step up and beat his man one on one often enough to have to be accounted for. Lawrence has improved a lot over the 2 years but a 1st round pick for a DL that doesn’t get to,the QB too often was excessive. A good run stopper can be had for less than a 1st especially a midrange 1st. I think Lawrence may take that extra step this year and become a force. Then, we’re talking a seriously good defense.
Force backs back inside. You have three really good run defenders up front, and good run defense linebackers, particularly Blake Martinez, and Peppers is good as well.
I think it's just fine to have a primary pass rusher on one side at Edge given the strength of the run defense in the middle. Obviously, on outside runs, Ojulari can certainly run and chase as good as anyone.
No such thing as a complete defense. I suppose the '85 Bears were closest.
I think if Olujari is the real deal (10-12 sacks) they will be a very good defense. Maybe top 8.
Agree about the '85 Bears, but the league figured out their scheme in a couple of years.
Z , then I would think we are improved. We need another DT, we need another LB to rush opposite him. We need everyone to stay healthy and we need more depth.
we really have an impact player from the rush position? Probably not. I could see our 1st pick next year on an OLB.
I have higher hopes that Smith develops into that guy than Ojulari. I like the pick in the second round but he looks like a slightly better player than Golden to me. A high effort pass rushers that will get 6-8 sacks a year.
Rosters turnover at a rate of 20-25% on a yearly basis due to UFA, injuries, decline in performance, retirements, etc.
They could use DL up front to potentially replace Shelton and depth, one ILB to push Crowder, and both OLB spots remain to be seen but suspect they will still need the impact OLB to really put horsepower into this defense. If they're really on top of things, they'll keep the pipeline flowing with talent at CB and S moving forward, as some players age and others potentially move on in UFA.
The 1980s Giants defense was about as complete as you could ask for, and they still gave up points and kept drafting defense.
Crowder and Ragland might be pretty good..
If it’s the Bears pick it should be Kayvon Thibodeaux
My sentiments exactly; already looking for draft prospects in that area.
I think if Olujari is the real deal (10-12 sacks) they will be a very good defense. Maybe top 8.
But we haven't had a inside pass rusher like Leonard Williams in either of those Eli superbowl's... we had talent there in Robbins, Cofield, young Linval, old Canty etc... but Dex and Leo... they are just different in my book, 1st round talents, a tier above the guys we've had on the inside of the DL... Plus Blake, we haven't had that since AP... Plus this secondary... this secondary is probably as good as its ever been or at least in recent memory... no such thing as complete but i think its fair for all of us to expect that its going to be a really good unit in 2021.
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we really have an impact player from the rush position? Probably not. I could see our 1st pick next year on an OLB.
My sentiments exactly; already looking for draft prospects in that area.
Kayvon out of Oregon is the next Myles Garrett type of guy... he's draft eligible next year when we have two 1s... it's never too early. Purdue has a good edge guy too. Probably a few others. Next years edge group has the talent at the top of the draft that this years class didn't
But I'm talking about another edge player coming from the opposite side who would threaten to get 14-16 sacks per season. That would make any defense reach another level.
Remember, Strahan had Osi.
LT had Leonard Marshall.
I think if Olujari is the real deal (10-12 sacks) they will be a very good defense. Maybe top 8.
A pretty good squad last year has the potential to be better this year. Some help from the offense, and this team might break .500.
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Could still use a stud ILB to play next to Martinez. But otherwise looking good!
Crowder and Ragland might be pretty good..
I’m optimistic and hopeful on them both too!
The LB position next to Martinez is a question mark.
Assuming Ojulari is a stud they need someone opposite who’s capable of being an elite rusher.
Everything else should be set.
Of course you have to find adequate role players to bookend the elite players, I'm still looking for those. Examples: Clyde Simmons as Reggie White's bookend at right end opposite Reggie White's left end, or Carl Banks as Lawrence Taylor as the SAM to Taylor's rushbacker.
Playoff caliber? Absolutely, imv..
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No such thing as a complete defense. I suppose the '85 Bears were closest.
I think if Olujari is the real deal (10-12 sacks) they will be a very good defense. Maybe top 8.
Agree about the '85 Bears, but the league figured out their scheme in a couple of years.
I almost posted that too.
But I'm talking about another edge player coming from the opposite side who would threaten to get 14-16 sacks per season. That would make any defense reach another level.
Remember, Strahan had Osi.
LT had Leonard Marshall.
I have a feeling he'll play on both sides to help get that dual attack affect.
The LB position next to Martinez is a question mark.
Assuming Ojulari is a stud they need someone opposite who’s capable of being an elite rusher.
Everything else should be set.
Committee would seem to be the way they're going with Shelton and Johnson. I thought that Lawrence would fit the mold just as well but a lot of people on here think that's a waste of him. If so, why not have him as a one-two tackle punch with Williams, somewhat like what the Cowboys of yore had with Bob Lilly and Jethro Pugh?
And yes, the Giants need another good if not great edge rusher opposite Ojulari if he proves to be a stud; unfortunately the Patriot system (which the Giants are presumably running) doesn't like edge rushers; once they become good they jettison them (read: Chandler Jones).
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a team has every position manned by an elite player. But that's not realistic. If a team can have adequate role players at positions, the right outstanding talents sprinkled among them can make everyone more effective.
Of course you have to find adequate role players to bookend the elite players, I'm still looking for those. Examples: Clyde Simmons as Reggie White's bookend at right end opposite Reggie White's left end, or Carl Banks as Lawrence Taylor as the SAM to Taylor's rushbacker.
I would argue that Carl Banks was something more than just an adequate role player. And then there was this guy named Carson. ALL 3 LB'S are in The Hall of Fame, normally not the house of JAG's. Taylor wasn't just an elite player, he was a GERNERATIONAL talent.
Crowder looked real good beside Martinez last year. Let's see if he continues to develop, and Ragland was a thumper coming out of school. Both players have the potential to be MORE than just adequate role player, IMO.
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In comment 15250475 TC said:
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a team has every position manned by an elite player. But that's not realistic. If a team can have adequate role players at positions, the right outstanding talents sprinkled among them can make everyone more effective.
Of course you have to find adequate role players to bookend the elite players, I'm still looking for those. Examples: Clyde Simmons as Reggie White's bookend at right end opposite Reggie White's left end, or Carl Banks as Lawrence Taylor as the SAM to Taylor's rushbacker.
I would argue that Carl Banks was something more than just an adequate role player. And then there was this guy named Carson. ALL 3 LB'S are in The Hall of Fame, normally not the house of JAG's. Taylor wasn't just an elite player, he was a GERNERATIONAL talent.
Crowder looked real good beside Martinez last year. Let's see if he continues to develop, and Ragland was a thumper coming out of school. Both players have the potential to be MORE than just adequate role player, IMO.
Banks is in the Hall of Fame? I don't see him on the list.
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In comment 15250490 Angel Eyes said:
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In comment 15250475 TC said:
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a team has every position manned by an elite player. But that's not realistic. If a team can have adequate role players at positions, the right outstanding talents sprinkled among them can make everyone more effective.
Of course you have to find adequate role players to bookend the elite players, I'm still looking for those. Examples: Clyde Simmons as Reggie White's bookend at right end opposite Reggie White's left end, or Carl Banks as Lawrence Taylor as the SAM to Taylor's rushbacker.
I would argue that Carl Banks was something more than just an adequate role player. And then there was this guy named Carson. ALL 3 LB'S are in The Hall of Fame, normally not the house of JAG's. Taylor wasn't just an elite player, he was a GERNERATIONAL talent.
Crowder looked real good beside Martinez last year. Let's see if he continues to develop, and Ragland was a thumper coming out of school. Both players have the potential to be MORE than just adequate role player, IMO.
Banks is in the Hall of Fame? I don't see him on the list.
He isn't, but he should be.
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In comment 15250490 Angel Eyes said:
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In comment 15250475 TC said:
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a team has every position manned by an elite player. But that's not realistic. If a team can have adequate role players at positions, the right outstanding talents sprinkled among them can make everyone more effective.
Of course you have to find adequate role players to bookend the elite players, I'm still looking for those. Examples: Clyde Simmons as Reggie White's bookend at right end opposite Reggie White's left end, or Carl Banks as Lawrence Taylor as the SAM to Taylor's rushbacker.
I would argue that Carl Banks was something more than just an adequate role player. And then there was this guy named Carson. ALL 3 LB'S are in The Hall of Fame, normally not the house of JAG's. Taylor wasn't just an elite player, he was a GERNERATIONAL talent.
Crowder looked real good beside Martinez last year. Let's see if he continues to develop, and Ragland was a thumper coming out of school. Both players have the potential to be MORE than just adequate role player, IMO.
Banks is in the Hall of Fame? I don't see him on the list.
Sorry, you're right. Was victimized by Google. He was however both a Pro-Bowl and All-Pro LB, and a member of the 1980's All Decade team. Far more than just a mediocre role player. My point remains the same.
And Harry used to kill anything that moved! :-)
The breadth of players available on defense will likely keep more players fresh in the 4th quarter. Hopefully the 4th quarter defensive fads and outright melt downs are a think of the past.
Where is this "complete" even near imagined?
I think it's just fine to have a primary pass rusher on one side at Edge given the strength of the run defense in the middle. Obviously, on outside runs, Ojulari can certainly run and chase as good as anyone.
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In comment 15250376 section125 said:
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No such thing as a complete defense. I suppose the '85 Bears were closest.
I think if Olujari is the real deal (10-12 sacks) they will be a very good defense. Maybe top 8.
Agree about the '85 Bears, but the league figured out their scheme in a couple of years.
I almost posted that too.
2000 Ravens were not perfect, just damn good...
I have higher hopes that Smith develops into that guy than Ojulari. I like the pick in the second round but he looks like a slightly better player than Golden to me. A high effort pass rushers that will get 6-8 sacks a year.
They could use DL up front to potentially replace Shelton and depth, one ILB to push Crowder, and both OLB spots remain to be seen but suspect they will still need the impact OLB to really put horsepower into this defense. If they're really on top of things, they'll keep the pipeline flowing with talent at CB and S moving forward, as some players age and others potentially move on in UFA.