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How good would have Toney been if he played for Alabama?

JohnB : 5/2/2021 9:54 pm
I’m thinking real good. On par with other recent WRs from there, I think. If he’s close to Waddle and Smith and the Giants got extra picks, that’d be huge
I said in an earlier thread  
The_Boss : 5/2/2021 9:57 pm : link
I know a GA alum who is an insane SEC follower. He believes 100% that had Toney gone to Alabama (who recruited him), he’d be DeVonta Smith.

Let’s hope that’s a sign of what’s ahead here.
I read  
pjcas18 : 5/2/2021 10:01 pm : link
that Toney only really came to prominence at Florida his senior year because he couldn't beat out the Florida WR's (and I guess Pitts) to garner more attention/PT.

if he was at Alabama what makes you think it's any different?

it's kind of like asking how Kamara would have been had he stayed  
Eric on Li : 5/2/2021 10:15 pm : link
it's impossible to say and truthfully neither player fits the profile of the types who have excelled at Bama.

At WR they tend to do best with all world 5 star types who run really good routes (Jones, Cooper, Jeudy, Smith).

And at RB they to do best with all world 5 star types with size and physicality.

They haven't had any specific success with players who need to be schemed or are converting from other positions as Toney was from QB (despite those types of conversions being very common in CFB recruiting).
RE: it's kind of like asking how Kamara would have been had he stayed  
robbieballs2003 : 5/2/2021 10:19 pm : link
In comment 15250897 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
it's impossible to say and truthfully neither player fits the profile of the types who have excelled at Bama.

At WR they tend to do best with all world 5 star types who run really good routes (Jones, Cooper, Jeudy, Smith).

And at RB they to do best with all world 5 star types with size and physicality.

They haven't had any specific success with players who need to be schemed or are converting from other positions as Toney was from QB (despite those types of conversions being very common in CFB recruiting).


Eh, I understand what you are saying but disagree. Not every player Alabama gets at WR is a great route runner coming in. Smith was a QB as well in HS if I am not mistaken. Alabama creates their WR in terms of being route runners. If Toney was there one thing would be certain, he'd be a better route runner than he is now. We have no idea how much success he would have had.
RE: I said in an earlier thread  
81_Great_Dane : 5/2/2021 10:22 pm : link
In comment 15250884 The_Boss said:
Quote:
I know a GA alum who is an insane SEC follower. He believes 100% that had Toney gone to Alabama (who recruited him), he’d be DeVonta Smith.

Let’s hope that’s a sign of what’s ahead here.
I don't follow CFB much but I assume that Saban's staff is sort of the Tiffany staff, and the Florida staff isn't as good. So your friend thinks that coaching is the difference between Toney being a one of a few terrific college WRs and the best player in CFB — or the Heisman winner, anyway.

I think highly of this Giants staff and hope that great coaching unlocks that potential.
He's a Giant now so I will root for him to succeed,  
RawhideMarshall : 5/2/2021 10:26 pm : link
but comparing Toney to the Heisman trophy winner, who outperformed him in every possible way on the field, is revisionist history.

Toney is a top tier athlete capable of making some amazing highlight plays. He is still learning the nuances of playing WR and has issues that must be corrected at the next level, specifically handing man and press coverage. Let's hope he stays focused on being a professional and that Judge, Garrett, Kitchens, etc. harness his immense talent.

The bottom line, we missed out on the cleaner prospect but recouped some solid future draft assets and added a high risk / high reward talent to the WR room.
RE: RE: it's kind of like asking how Kamara would have been had he stayed  
Eric on Li : 5/2/2021 10:36 pm : link
In comment 15250901 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 15250897 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


it's impossible to say and truthfully neither player fits the profile of the types who have excelled at Bama.

At WR they tend to do best with all world 5 star types who run really good routes (Jones, Cooper, Jeudy, Smith).

And at RB they to do best with all world 5 star types with size and physicality.

They haven't had any specific success with players who need to be schemed or are converting from other positions as Toney was from QB (despite those types of conversions being very common in CFB recruiting).



Eh, I understand what you are saying but disagree. Not every player Alabama gets at WR is a great route runner coming in. Smith was a QB as well in HS if I am not mistaken. Alabama creates their WR in terms of being route runners. If Toney was there one thing would be certain, he'd be a better route runner than he is now. We have no idea how much success he would have had.


Smith played WR in HS and was a national recruit as a WR all the way (he played WR on the circuit of all the high profile camps, had offers from literally everyone, played in HS all star games, etc). Just as Jeudy and Ruggs were - which is why those 3 were comprised Bama's 2017 recruiting class and Toney wasn't.

Of course we have no idea what actually would have happened had Toney gone to bama (that's why it's a hypoethical), but those are the reasons why he was behind those guys in the pecking order to go there in the first place despite playing HS ball in Alabama while 2 of those guys were out of state.
Why can't we just be excited about the draft picks  
PwndPapi : 5/2/2021 10:38 pm : link
Without having to play the hypothetical game to make ourselves feel better? If Toney went to Alabama, he probably wouldn't have played.
I thought I read he played QB in high school  
robbieballs2003 : 5/2/2021 10:42 pm : link
But it may have been that he thinks like a QB and knows more than an average receiver. I thought I read he played QB so it helped him when he became a WR but guess not. Maybe it was a defensive back?
Toney is a work in progress  
Chris L. : 5/2/2021 10:46 pm : link
but he has several things working in his favor. First, the college stats indicate his hands are real good. Second, his ability to change directions on a dime while moving will certainly translate to the NFL and will help him separate from coverage. Last, he has great speed which requires DBs to give him cushion which will give him room to operate. Finally, I think this coaching staff is excellent and will teach him how to convert his god given talents into production on the field. He needs work on his route running and he will get that. It is fair to say his ceiling is really, really high.
RE: He's a Giant now so I will root for him to succeed,  
section125 : 5/2/2021 10:47 pm : link
In comment 15250908 RawhideMarshall said:
Quote:
but comparing Toney to the Heisman trophy winner, who outperformed him in every possible way on the field, is revisionist history.

Toney is a top tier athlete capable of making some amazing highlight plays. He is still learning the nuances of playing WR and has issues that must be corrected at the next level, specifically handing man and press coverage. Let's hope he stays focused on being a professional and that Judge, Garrett, Kitchens, etc. harness his immense talent.

The bottom line, we missed out on the cleaner prospect but recouped some solid future draft assets and added a high risk / high reward talent to the WR room.


It is the point the OP made. Had Toney gone to Alabama, he likely would have gotten the better coaching that Saban's staff offers. Seems like Toney was either not focused early at UF, if he was not as good as the other UF WRs or if the coaching staff didn't recognize his talent. Could be that he simply developed this last season. It happens as kids develop physically at different speeds than others. He appears to have been immature as a freshman with the gun issues.
He also may have been kicked off Alabama's FB team and had no development at all.

Smith at this point in time (and likely Waddle) is the better WR.
He probably wouldn't have  
GMen72 : 5/2/2021 10:53 pm : link
played much since he couldn't earn many touches until his last year at Florida. He probably would've transferred?

RE: I thought I read he played QB in high school  
Eric on Li : 5/2/2021 10:53 pm : link
In comment 15250930 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
But it may have been that he thinks like a QB and knows more than an average receiver. I thought I read he played QB so it helped him when he became a WR but guess not. Maybe it was a defensive back?


He played both ways but he was a pretty surefire WR. Most never expected him to get away from LSU but something happened there so there were rumors he'd silently committed to Miami. In the recruiting world I remember it being somewhat surprising when he ended up going to Bama since they'd already signed Jeudy and Ruggs. But that's how Saban has had them on such a high level for so long.
RE: RE: RE: it's kind of like asking how Kamara would have been had he stayed  
Scuzzlebutt : 5/3/2021 12:11 am : link
In comment 15250924 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15250901 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


In comment 15250897 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


it's impossible to say and truthfully neither player fits the profile of the types who have excelled at Bama.

At WR they tend to do best with all world 5 star types who run really good routes (Jones, Cooper, Jeudy, Smith).

And at RB they to do best with all world 5 star types with size and physicality.

They haven't had any specific success with players who need to be schemed or are converting from other positions as Toney was from QB (despite those types of conversions being very common in CFB recruiting).



Eh, I understand what you are saying but disagree. Not every player Alabama gets at WR is a great route runner coming in. Smith was a QB as well in HS if I am not mistaken. Alabama creates their WR in terms of being route runners. If Toney was there one thing would be certain, he'd be a better route runner than he is now. We have no idea how much success he would have had.



Smith played WR in HS and was a national recruit as a WR all the way (he played WR on the circuit of all the high profile camps, had offers from literally everyone, played in HS all star games, etc). Just as Jeudy and Ruggs were - which is why those 3 were comprised Bama's 2017 recruiting class and Toney wasn't.

Of course we have no idea what actually would have happened had Toney gone to bama (that's why it's a hypoethical), but those are the reasons why he was behind those guys in the pecking order to go there in the first place despite playing HS ball in Alabama while 2 of those guys were out of state.


Didn’t Bama try recruiting Toney? In fact, the guy who tried recruiting him at Bama is currently on our coaching staff if I am not mistaken.
Scuzzlebutt  
Eric on Li : 5/3/2021 12:35 am : link
HS recruiting is full of fictitious offers or claims of offers from schools that aren't actually committable. Generally if Alabama wants a guy they get them. Especially if it's a guy from the state of Alabama and Auburn didn't offer (those 2 schools signed 12 of the top 14 in-state recruits in 2017). At the time he committed to UF he supposedly only had a handful of offers and Bama wasn't one of them.

I have no doubt Alabama recruited him to some degree. I would just doubt he had a committable offer or that they made it a priority to make room for him or else I think he would have ended up there. Most likely he was somewhere on their board and if someone else higher on that board (like Devonta Smith) turned them down he may have eventually gotten a committable offer.

Alabama had the #1 overall recruiting class in 2017 and of the 27 position players they signed all but 2 were ranked higher than Toney. 20 of the 27 were top 150 recruits (Toney was the 421st ranked player nationally and just outside the top 20 in Alabama). Alabama signed 8 first round picks in that recruiting class, 3 of them were WRs and 1 of them was a RB. And for 3 seasons before this one those guys played and made an impact while Toney was still having trouble getting on the field for UF so even with hindsight it's hard to say they missed on him.
It doesn’t matter  
UberAlias : 5/3/2021 7:26 am : link
Only thing that matters is how he dies as a Giant.
maybe not better, but certainly more well known.  
Victor in CT : 5/3/2021 8:28 am : link
.......
I think Saban said he recruited him  
Dr. D : 5/3/2021 9:13 am : link
and wished he came to Bama.
There's no way to quantify it  
JonC : 5/3/2021 9:41 am : link
Toney has some similarities to Waddle, but lacks the burst and top gears of the latter. Smith's on a whole other level.
Kenny Golladay was a 3rd rounder  
BSIMatt : 5/3/2021 10:18 am : link
And was the top available fa wide receiver. Chris Godwin and Allen Robinson, who were tagged, but among top fa wrs prior, were 3rd and second rounders. Tyreek Hill, Davante Adams, DK Metcalf, Stephon Diggs..all not drafted in round 1, let alone top 11.

Their in the NFL now, it’s a new game, their college statistical accomplishments have no bearing on what they will become at the NFL level.
RE: It doesn’t matter  
The_Boss : 5/3/2021 10:24 am : link
In comment 15251059 UberAlias said:
Quote:
Only thing that matters is how he dies as a Giant.


A bit morbid, no?
RE: He's a Giant now so I will root for him to succeed,  
MotownGIANTS : 5/3/2021 11:23 am : link
In comment 15250908 RawhideMarshall said:
Quote:
but comparing Toney to the Heisman trophy winner, who outperformed him in every possible way on the field, is revisionist history.

Toney is a top tier athlete capable of making some amazing highlight plays. He is still learning the nuances of playing WR and has issues that must be corrected at the next level, specifically handing man and press coverage. Let's hope he stays focused on being a professional and that Judge, Garrett, Kitchens, etc. harness his immense talent.

The bottom line, we missed out on the cleaner prospect but recouped some solid future draft assets and added a high risk / high reward talent to the WR room.



This is mostly on point .... however given all assessments of Toney's talents AND TAKEN at 20 with a future 1st round kicker saying he is high risk is not fair his floor is can play multiple positions slot/KR/PR even the spark is not there and he is a B player being able to "save" at least 1 roster space and a salary befitting those contributions that is fine. He becomes less roster churn in a couple of spots. Plus whatever we do in 2022 with the 1st ... so the risk in picking him is not as high risk win given the full context of things. I think the questionable move in this draft was no OL, I hope we get a vet player to hedge the bet on a 1 yr deal.
RE: He's a Giant now so I will root for him to succeed,  
MotownGIANTS : 5/3/2021 11:26 am : link
In comment 15250908 RawhideMarshall said:
Quote:
but comparing Toney to the Heisman trophy winner, who outperformed him in every possible way on the field, is revisionist history.

Toney is a top tier athlete capable of making some amazing highlight plays. He is still learning the nuances of playing WR and has issues that must be corrected at the next level, specifically handing man and press coverage. Let's hope he stays focused on being a professional and that Judge, Garrett, Kitchens, etc. harness his immense talent.

The bottom line, we missed out on the cleaner prospect but recouped some solid future draft assets and added a high risk / high reward talent to the WR room.



This is mostly on point .... however given all assessments of Toney's talents AND TAKEN at 20 with a future 1st round kicker saying he is high risk is not fair. His floor is he can play multiple positions slot/KR/PR even if the spark is not there and he is a B player being able to "save" at least 1 roster space and a salary befitting those contributions that is fine. He becomes less roster churn in a couple of spots. Plus whatever we do in 2022 with the 1st ... so the risk in picking him is not as high a risk win given the full context of things. I think the questionable move in this draft was no OL, I hope we get a vet player to hedge the bet on a 1 yr deal.
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