With the amount of crazy talent we now have for playmakers, we can’t just let Jason Garrett ruin them with his vanilla game plans. This is a huge reason why Cowboy fans were glad to see him go. He doesn’t allow for great players to be great and get many yards after the catch with all his curl in patterns.
Please tell me our plays practiced and called and our game plan will be a team effort of coaches this year and not just the result of one boring man who lacks creativity despite being a pretty smart man?
Joe Judge has to be smart enough to not let a guy like Toney be used in multiple schemes, even taking the snap and using his quickness to get that 1-2 yards needed on third down. More quick WR screens, more pitchouts to Toney who is going in motion often. Certainly NY coaches can duplicate what other teams are doing and are successful at, like New Orleans just to mention one.
So, what do you think? Should I relax and trust that Joe has this, and that our coaches will collaborate to come up with a diverse game plan, or should I accept the inevitable that Jason Garrett’s limitations will limit our offense and prevent us from maximizing our players’ talents? Didn’t Judge say just the opposite will happen with our players?
And if we still aren’t putting points up I’m guessing he will be fired mid season. Garrett isn’t out long term OC.
So, are you saying you gave complete confidence in his game plan, his play calling, and in the plays he has drawn up?
Are you saying we should all feel- In Garrett I trust- attitude?
And if we still aren’t putting points up I’m guessing he will be fired mid season. Garrett isn’t out long term OC.
Garrett was on Nick Saban’s staff with Miami Dolphins so I think he understands what Joe Judge is looking for.
I'm guessing very few.
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his offense was plain. He was let go because they did not do anything in the playoffs when they made it.
So, are you saying you gave complete confidence in his game plan, his play calling, and in the plays he has drawn up?
Are you saying we should all feel- In Garrett I trust- attitude?
I believe some of us are saying that he was hamstrung in his PC once SB went down for the season in addition to not much to work with, with our receiving corps..
We can BETTER judge him now that he gets SB back and now has, on paper, excellent tools to work with in his WRs and new TE
I'm guessing very few.
I'm guessing ZERO, unless they've coached at a high level in college or above.
You know, the guy who actually called the plays when Garrett was let go.
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his offense was plain. He was let go because they did not do anything in the playoffs when they made it.
So, are you saying you gave complete confidence in his game plan, his play calling, and in the plays he has drawn up?
Are you saying we should all feel- In Garrett I trust- attitude?
Nope, I am saying the OP is wrong in saying why he was let go.
Did I like the playbook/calling no. I thought Kitchens did a better job in his one game as play caller. What needs to be said even more is the reason for the plain jane playbook. Things like a basically new offensive with two or three rookies playing on the line, a guy playing center that never did it; a backup RB, a TE that had questionable hands, their best WR hurt part of the year and the other doubled all year while playing hurt himself.
Do you think the Giants had the talent to do anything special on offense?
I hope you are right, but Talking Giants week after week we’re doing extensive legwork to show us plays that featured many curl ins that obviously hindered YAC. You can go on YouTube and view these past videos for yourself. I’m not making this stuff up.
But your point regarding the lack of talent is noted..., we did have a lack of talent on offense BUT.....with practically the same talent the previous year, didn’t Pat Shurmur have a lot more success? Heck, even Danny Dimes was slinging the ball all over the place throwing for > 300 yards multiple times and 24 tds in just 12 games?
Why was Shurmur so successful with basically the same “limited” talent players? It seems to me Garrett has to take some of the blame, don’t you think?
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In comment 15251085 section125 said:
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his offense was plain. He was let go because they did not do anything in the playoffs when they made it.
So, are you saying you gave complete confidence in his game plan, his play calling, and in the plays he has drawn up?
Are you saying we should all feel- In Garrett I trust- attitude?
Nope, I am saying the OP is wrong in saying why he was let go.
Did I like the playbook/calling no. I thought Kitchens did a better job in his one game as play caller. What needs to be said even more is the reason for the plain jane playbook. Things like a basically new offensive with two or three rookies playing on the line, a guy playing center that never did it; a backup RB, a TE that had questionable hands, their best WR hurt part of the year and the other doubled all year while playing hurt himself.
Do you think the Giants had the talent to do anything special on offense?
Then please explain to me why basically the same playmakers with the same crappy OL and a rookie qb were able to be so much more successful the previous year under Shurmur than Garrett’s run team last year?
The most important thing is they continue to get better through the year. All this in spite of no Barkley and two or three plays with Evan engram that would have changed everything.
I wonder if the Opie knows how many teams the Giants have had that have gone 13 + 3. The answer I believe is only two. It's a rare accomplishment and usually takes a team that is loaded on both sides of the ball. Garrett took a team playing a rookie quarterback who was drafted in the sixth round and missed the preseason and had a horrible defense and he went 13 to 3.
It is a rare and singular and close to an amazing accomplishment.
Garrett has been calling plays since high school. And then some chump who almost certainly knows nothing about the game is critical because he doesn't have enough emotion. God help us from chumps
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wasn't limited by a. the talent he had to work with (no Barkley after Week 2), and b. it was harder to implement in the first year due to Covid restrictions?
I hope you are right, but Talking Giants week after week we’re doing extensive legwork to show us plays that featured many curl ins that obviously hindered YAC. You can go on YouTube and view these past videos for yourself. I’m not making this stuff up.
But your point regarding the lack of talent is noted..., we did have a lack of talent on offense BUT.....with practically the same talent the previous year, didn’t Pat Shurmur have a lot more success? Heck, even Danny Dimes was slinging the ball all over the place throwing for > 300 yards multiple times and 24 tds in just 12 games?
Why was Shurmur so successful with basically the same “limited” talent players? It seems to me Garrett has to take some of the blame, don’t you think?
Well, Shurmer had Barkley. And I know a lot of people like to dismiss what Barkley's presence does on the field, but the offense went through him. Imagine Garrett without Ezekiel Elliot.
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How many fans could accurately critique (in depth)Jason Garrett's "playbook" in front of qualified nfl coaches if asked to do so.
I'm guessing very few.
I'm guessing ZERO, unless they've coached at a high level in college or above.
Yet, fans are quick to critique.
To be clear, I am not against discussing what we aren't necessarily qualified in, but the discussion seems to have a more "set in stone" tone versus a curious or questionable tone. There is a reason that coaches put in endless hours in regards to installing, play calling, game planning, scheme, and playbook structure. I have a difficult time believing fans who put in 99.9% less time than coaches can accurately critique. If they are able to with such limited time and resources then they may be a football genius.
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Garrett hasn’t been a part of this type of coaching staff. I don’t think he’s had someone like Kitchens as his equal as an OC. He’s also working under a HC who operates differently than anyone he likely interacted with in Dallas. Our game plan last year was limited because of our personnel. Playbook will be op owned up this year for sure.
And if we still aren’t putting points up I’m guessing he will be fired mid season. Garrett isn’t out long term OC.
Garrett was on Nick Saban’s staff with Miami Dolphins so I think he understands what Joe Judge is looking for.
That’s a long time ago and he wasn’t the OC there.
Garrett has had some very successful offenses. If he can’t get things going now he will likely be fired during the season.
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In comment 15251091 5BowlsSoon said:
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In comment 15251085 section125 said:
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his offense was plain. He was let go because they did not do anything in the playoffs when they made it.
So, are you saying you gave complete confidence in his game plan, his play calling, and in the plays he has drawn up?
Are you saying we should all feel- In Garrett I trust- attitude?
Nope, I am saying the OP is wrong in saying why he was let go.
Did I like the playbook/calling no. I thought Kitchens did a better job in his one game as play caller. What needs to be said even more is the reason for the plain jane playbook. Things like a basically new offensive with two or three rookies playing on the line, a guy playing center that never did it; a backup RB, a TE that had questionable hands, their best WR hurt part of the year and the other doubled all year while playing hurt himself.
Do you think the Giants had the talent to do anything special on offense?
Then please explain to me why basically the same playmakers with the same crappy OL and a rookie qb were able to be so much more successful the previous year under Shurmur than Garrett’s run team last year?
Because it wasn't the same line, same players and same playbook. You cannot be that dense. You want to add in no OTAs, limited training camp and many new coaches????
That should come as well, but will still be subject to the Offensive line that has to properly support the playmakers and a QB to execute a large percentage of the calls. Two areas that were among the weakest of the team.
Hopefully injuries (and COVID) aside these new guys will have plenty of time to work together before they kick off in Sept so the Offense doesn't take until mid-season to find some successes.
You know, the guy who actually called the plays when Garrett was let go.
Okay, leaving the Cowboys issue aside, let’s talk about what is really relevant to our team.....are you happy with The job Garrett did last year? Why do you feel our offense the prior year with basically the same players excelled compared to last year? Even with a rookie qb? Why do you think Jones did not really progress under Garrett as compared to under Shurmur?
I’ look forward to your answers to these specific questions.
The playbook is likely not so unique based on it's contents but rather the offenses ability to execute them.
The Giants run Power/Trap/Zone(I/O)/Jet Sweep/Zone Read and likely RPO. I would bet that the passing concepts are similar most teams' that are considered "fun to watch."
Trust is going to be a huge factor in how the Giants perform in 2021. From execution to how the game is managed by the playcallers, if Coach Judge can get everyone to buy-in and trust themselves as well as each other, this will be a playoff team.
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In comment 15251104 section125 said:
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In comment 15251091 5BowlsSoon said:
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In comment 15251085 section125 said:
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his offense was plain. He was let go because they did not do anything in the playoffs when they made it.
So, are you saying you gave complete confidence in his game plan, his play calling, and in the plays he has drawn up?
Are you saying we should all feel- In Garrett I trust- attitude?
Nope, I am saying the OP is wrong in saying why he was let go.
Did I like the playbook/calling no. I thought Kitchens did a better job in his one game as play caller. What needs to be said even more is the reason for the plain jane playbook. Things like a basically new offensive with two or three rookies playing on the line, a guy playing center that never did it; a backup RB, a TE that had questionable hands, their best WR hurt part of the year and the other doubled all year while playing hurt himself.
Do you think the Giants had the talent to do anything special on offense?
Then please explain to me why basically the same playmakers with the same crappy OL and a rookie qb were able to be so much more successful the previous year under Shurmur than Garrett’s run team last year?
Because it wasn't the same line, same players and same playbook. You cannot be that dense. You want to add in no OTAs, limited training camp and many new coaches????
You just made my case 125....
You are right....It wasn’t the same PLAYBOOK....it was an inferior one (from Shurmur’s).
Btw, The OL probably was just as good as the previous year. And the playmakers were pretty much exactly the same.
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get a lot of love here, it will be interesting to see if Kellen Moore continues to get talked about as being an innovative offensive guy.
You know, the guy who actually called the plays when Garrett was let go.
Okay, leaving the Cowboys issue aside, let’s talk about what is really relevant to our team.....are you happy with The job Garrett did last year? Why do you feel our offense the prior year with basically the same players excelled compared to last year? Even with a rookie qb? Why do you think Jones did not really progress under Garrett as compared to under Shurmur?
I’ look forward to your answers to these specific questions.
No was not happy with the offense last year.
Barkley had 91 rec and 1300 yards rushing - you think that makes a difference?
Jones had a bad year:
1) Less experienced crappy line(which is worse than a crappy line)
2) See Barkley, above
3) Slayton was not hurt in 2019, was in 2020
4.) New offense, no OTAs
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In comment 15251088 UConn4523 said:
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Garrett hasn’t been a part of this type of coaching staff. I don’t think he’s had someone like Kitchens as his equal as an OC. He’s also working under a HC who operates differently than anyone he likely interacted with in Dallas. Our game plan last year was limited because of our personnel. Playbook will be op owned up this year for sure.
And if we still aren’t putting points up I’m guessing he will be fired mid season. Garrett isn’t out long term OC.
Garrett was on Nick Saban’s staff with Miami Dolphins so I think he understands what Joe Judge is looking for.
That’s a long time ago and he wasn’t the OC there.
Garrett has had some very successful offenses. If he can’t get things going now he will likely be fired during the season.
In retrospect, I should have omitted his Cowboys past...it is not as relevant. I know Jerry Jones didn’t want him to call plays because he wanted a more younger mind with new ideas, so one can’t really judge Garrett’s play calling at the end of his Dallas days.
I should have kept this discussion all about Garrett last year vs Shurmur’s final year and how do we feel about Garrett THIS COMING YEAR?
From your lips to God’s ears Spider.....
You just made my case 125....
You are right....It wasn’t the same PLAYBOOK....it was an inferior one (from Shurmur’s).
Btw, The OL probably was just as good as the previous year. And the playmakers were pretty much exactly the same.
Ok, you see only what you want to see and cherry pick to fill what you want...
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get a lot of love here, it will be interesting to see if Kellen Moore continues to get talked about as being an innovative offensive guy.
You know, the guy who actually called the plays when Garrett was let go.
Okay, leaving the Cowboys issue aside, let’s talk about what is really relevant to our team.....are you happy with The job Garrett did last year? Why do you feel our offense the prior year with basically the same players excelled compared to last year? Even with a rookie qb? Why do you think Jones did not really progress under Garrett as compared to under Shurmur?
I’ look forward to your answers to these specific questions.
I didn't mind the job Gerrett did last season. He found a way to get a running game going in the absence of Berkley and he coached based on the limited weapons at his disposal. Don't underestimate what Slayton's limitations from an injury meant too.
Our offense didn't "excel" the year prior anyway. We had a OL that had the QB pressured at a high rate (as was the case last season too), and the team was playing from behind a lot more than in 2020.
I'm also not sure what defines "progress". Jones cut down on turnovers and his completion rate went up slightly. The gameplans seemed to be more in line with having several more games where the game was within one score than the year prior. And in a three games, we had a chance to win the game at the end and didn't execute. One was a bad drop by Engram. One was a missed PI and a late throw by Jones and the 3rd was an INT by jones.
I don't think you can look at last season and define what Garrett's offensive playbook looks like, and that's exactly what you say in the OP.
By the way - it isn't necessarily a flaw if you have only curl routes as options on certain plays. It is if the QB doesn't check out of a coverage that will be tough to beat or the WR's don't run good enough routes to get open.
Not really sure what you are looking for here. Jones struggled, we had no Barkley, and we didn't have anything close to a #1 WR. Our best weapon was open and in position to win games but he's muffed a few plays that cost us 2 wins. The offense was hard to watch but its hard to put blame squarely on Garrett.
Look around the league at teams with bottom 5 talent on offense, how did they look?
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In comment 15251103 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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get a lot of love here, it will be interesting to see if Kellen Moore continues to get talked about as being an innovative offensive guy.
You know, the guy who actually called the plays when Garrett was let go.
Okay, leaving the Cowboys issue aside, let’s talk about what is really relevant to our team.....are you happy with The job Garrett did last year? Why do you feel our offense the prior year with basically the same players excelled compared to last year? Even with a rookie qb? Why do you think Jones did not really progress under Garrett as compared to under Shurmur?
I’ look forward to your answers to these specific questions.
I didn't mind the job Gerrett did last season. He found a way to get a running game going in the absence of Berkley and he coached based on the limited weapons at his disposal. Don't underestimate what Slayton's limitations from an injury meant too.
Our offense didn't "excel" the year prior anyway. We had a OL that had the QB pressured at a high rate (as was the case last season too), and the team was playing from behind a lot more than in 2020.
I'm also not sure what defines "progress". Jones cut down on turnovers and his completion rate went up slightly. The gameplans seemed to be more in line with having several more games where the game was within one score than the year prior. And in a three games, we had a chance to win the game at the end and didn't execute. One was a bad drop by Engram. One was a missed PI and a late throw by Jones and the 3rd was an INT by jones.
I don't think you can look at last season and define what Garrett's offensive playbook looks like, and that's exactly what you say in the OP.
By the way - it isn't necessarily a flaw if you have only curl routes as options on certain plays. It is if the QB doesn't check out of a coverage that will be tough to beat or the WR's don't run good enough routes to get open.
Great answer and thanks for answering my questions with great detail to support them. Lots of good words to ponder.....I’m feeling better about Garrett already, especially believing Judge hired other people to assist him.
Thought Garrett did call some decent games last year but was, in many instances, undone by poor execution and mistakes from just about everybody. But at the end of the day, 17 points per game is abysmal and it is on him to ensure that isn't the case going forward, especially with more weapons at his disposal.
Not really sure what you are looking for here. Jones struggled, we had no Barkley, and we didn't have anything close to a #1 WR. Our best weapon was open and in position to win games but he's muffed a few plays that cost us 2 wins. The offense was hard to watch but its hard to put blame squarely on Garrett.
Look around the league at teams with bottom 5 talent on offense, how did they look?
I guess I had three itches to scratch here:
1. Was he a bland playcaller in Dallas? The answer seems to be no, he wasn’t calling plays his last 6 years...in fact Jones insisted he hire Moore because he wanted a younger mind calling plays.
2. Why did our offense, in particular Jones, excel much more in the prior year with basically the same crappy OL and the same mediocre playmakers, with no Saquon both years?
3. Do I trust Garrett to utilize all these new shiny toys that has been given to him to play with? I would feel better to know this offense will be run and made up with plays created by a committee with input from all hired. Even if Garrett has final authority to call the play just knowing we have creative plays to utilize our talent, like Toney taking the snap, etc...this would make me feel better. I probably should give JJ the credit to trust him...he knows what our offense needs to be top notch...I’m sure he has hired a few extra offensive coaches just to see that is going to get done.
I guess this is why I started this thread. It actually has helped getting this feedback...maybe tonight I will sleep better. Lol
If he can't get things going to Barkley, Golladay, and Toney that we will know pretty quick and I'm sure Judge will do what's in the best interest of the team.
We did both last year, though not nearly as many WR screens. At least part of the issue was the players getting the jet sweeps (Shepard, Engram).
I just found this to remind me...
Offensive and Defensive Consultant Pat Flaherty
2021-Present: Offensive and Defensive Consultant, New York Giants
2019-2021: Analyst, Penn State University
2019: Offensive Line Coach, Miami Dolphins
2017-2018: Offensive Line Coach, Jacksonville Jaguars
2016: Offensive Line Coach, San Francisco 49ers
2004-2015: Offensive Line Coach, New York Giants
2001-2003: Tight Ends Coach, Chicago Bears
2000: Tight Ends Coach, Washington Redskins
1999: Tight Ends and Special Teams Coach, Recruiting Coordinator, University of Iowa
1993-1998: Offensive Line, Tight Ends, and Special Teams Coach, Recruiting Coordinator, Wake Forest University
1992: Defensive Line Coach, East Carolina University
1984-1991: Offensive Line Coach, Rutgers University
1982-1983: Assistant Offensive Line Coach, Penn State University
1980-1981: Offensive Line Coach, East Stroudsburg University
Pro Experience: None
Collegiate Experience: Offensive center for East Stroudsburg University (1976-1979)
Born April 27, 1956
Offensive Quality Control Coach Nick Williams
2021-Present: Offensive Quality Control Coach
2020: Offensive Assistant, New York Giants
2017-2019: Wide Receivers Coach, Southern Illinois University
2014-2016: Wide Receivers Coach, Jacksonville State University
2013: Offensive Graduate Assistant, Valdosta State University
2012: Offensive Analyst, University of Alabama
Pro Experience: None
Collegiate Experience: Wide Receiver, University of Alabama (2009-2012)
Born: N/A
Offensive Quality Control Coach Russ Callaway
2021-Present: Offensive Quality Control Coach, New York Giants
2020: Senior Offensive Analyst, LSU
2017-2019: Offensive Coordinator/Quarterbacks Coach, Samford University
2016: Offensive Coordinator/Wide Receivers Coach, Samford University
2015: Wide Receivers Coach, Samford University
2013-2014: Wide Receivers Coach/Recruiting Coordinator, Murray State University
2011-2012: Defensive Analyst, University of Alabama
Pro Experience: None
Collegiate Experience: Quarterback, Valdosta State University (2007-2010)
Born: N/A
*Offensive Quality Control Coach Bobby Blick
2020-Present: Offensive Quality Control Coach, New York Giants
2017-2019: Defensive Assistant, New York Giants
2016: Director of Player Personnel, Army
2015: Special Teams Coordinator/Director of Recruiting, Samford University
2014: Tight Ends/Slot Receivers Coach, Samford University
2014: Special Teams Quality Control Coach, Georgia Tech
2011-2013: Tight Ends/Running Backs Coach, Elon University
2008-2010: Offensive Graduate Assistant, North Carolina State University
2004-2007: Undergraduate Assistant, North Carolina State University
Pro Experience: None
Collegiate Experience: None
Born: September 8, 1984
Offensive Assistant Jody Wright
2021-Present: Offensive Assistant, New York Giants
2020: Defensive Assistant, New York Giants
2019: Offensive Assistant, Cleveland Browns
2018: Assistant Head Coach/Offensive Line Coach, University of Alabama at Birmingham
2015-2017: Director of Player Personnel, University of Alabama
2014: Running Backs Coach, University of Alabama at Birmingham
2013: Passing Game Coordinator/Tight Ends Coach, Jacksonville State University
2010-2012: Graduate Assistant/Offensive Analyst, University of Alabama
2009: Assistant Athletic Director for Football Operations, Mississippi State University
2006-2008: Graduate Assistant, Mississippi State University
2005: Volunteer Coach, Mississippi State University
2002-2004: Student Assistant Coach, Jacksonville State University
Pro Experience: None
Collegiate Experience: None
Born: July 21, 1981
*Offensive Assistant Stephen Brown
2020-Present: Offensive Assistant, New York Giants
2016-2019: Offensive Assistant, Dallas Cowboys
2013-2014: Assistant to the Head Coach/Special Teams Assistant, Buffalo Bills
2009-2012: Quality Control Coach/Director of Recruiting, Syracuse University
2006-2008: Student Assistant, University of Tennessee
Pro Experience: None
Collegiate Experience: None
Born: May 3, 1987
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WR screens are going into the playbook
We did both last year, though not nearly as many WR screens. At least part of the issue was the players getting the jet sweeps (Shepard, Engram).
WR/TE unit last year was clueless. They couldn't execute a decent screen without getting called for offensive pass interference for most of the year...
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In comment 15251087 PEEJ said:
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WR screens are going into the playbook
We did both last year, though not nearly as many WR screens. At least part of the issue was the players getting the jet sweeps (Shepard, Engram).
WR/TE unit last year was clueless. They couldn't execute a decent screen without getting called for offensive pass interference for most of the year...
I wonder what some of the running/screen plays with Shepard (and to a lesser extent, Engram) will look like with Toney .
Personally, I didn’t like some of the play designs, like the one where you have all your receivers running curl routes at the same time?!