Bit of a misleading title, admittedly, but I do think we'll see a significant improvement in how the offensive line.
All stats were taken from NFL Next Gen Stats.
EVERYTHING has to do with the Giants' offensive scheme and with Daniel Jones. We can take a look at a few stats and quantify what we (or at least, I) saw with our very own eyes.
Holding on to the ball
Daniel Jones ranked 24th in the NFL in terms of how long he held on to the ball. The average time to throw for Jones is 2.76 seconds.
Some of the league's best QBs are on the longer side of things but that's because a lot of them extend plays with their feet, increasing their time to throw. Others, simply, have a good offensive line.
Jones can definitely extend plays with his feet, but I often felt that there were fewer short yardage plays that were schemed in and the Giants had some longer developing plays.
Tom Brady had a time to throw of 2.57 seconds, and I think 2.6 seconds should be around the target for Jones given the state of the OL.
Aggressiveness
So Daniel Jones had the 13th highest "aggressiveness" index, which essentially means the percent of throws into tight coverage where there is a defender within 1 yard or less of the receiver at the time of completion or incompletion.
He had the 9th lowest "expected completion percentage" as well. This is the probability of a pass completion, based on numerous factors such as receiver separation from the nearest defender, where the receiver is on the field, the separation the passer had at time of throw from the nearest pass rusher, and more.
This is not good. The best QBs in the league were actually LOW on aggressiveness. The 3 QBs with the lowest aggressiveness?
1) Russell Wilson
2) Patrick Mahomes
3) Aaron Rodgers
So this tells me that Daniel Jones held onto the ball longer and threw a higher proportion of dangerous balls that ended up being contested.
How do we fix this
Well the team has three players now that weren't present in 2020 that will help immensely:
1) Saquon Barkley
His injury hurt NYG a ton. He forces teams to stack the box and frees up receivers from having a safety or linebacker shading their way.
During his rookie year which was his only healthy year, he ranked 7th in terms of percentage of teams stacking the box with 8 defenders at 22.99% among RBs with at least 200 carries...and many of those RBs above him didn't have the weapons the NYG had at WR at that time.
His prowess as a short yardage route runner and safety valve for Daniel Jones is HUGE. It forces teams to assign an extra player to cover for him and that frees everybody up and will decrease the aggressiveness index for Jones.
2) Kadarius Toney
Similar to Barkley, the guy is masterful in space. He adds a presence for antoher short yardage monster and will run high completion percentage routes.
With New York drafting him over more "pure" receivers such as Rashod Bateman, Terrace Marshall, and Elijah Moore, this told me that they will manufacture touches for both him and Saquon.
This in turn will hopefully decrease Daniel Jones' time to throw and increase his completion percentage.
3) Kenny Golladay
The Giants haven't had a true contested catch receiver since Odell Beckham Jr. This will improve Daniel Jones' metrics as:
A) Will reduce time to throw in the red zone
B) Given Jones' propensity to making these aggressive throws, the completion percentage will go up.
Last year, the only short yardage guys available were:
The corpse of Golden Tate.
Wayne Gallman, who isn't a world beater in running routes and catching the ball.
Evan Engram who's drop rate might just be higher than his catch rate.
Sterling Shepard, who was the ONLY real reliable short yardage route runner/pass catcher.
Daniel Jones was worse than league average in almost ALL areas in the short passing game:
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/list/qb-grid/new-york-giants/2020/week/daniel-jones/JON165462/2020/all/qb-grid
The influx of talent at the WR and RB position should overall dramatically reduce time to throw by introducing capable players that Jones can trust to move the chains on low average depth of target, higher percentage plays.
And time to throw reduction will take a massive load off the offensive line and improve performance.
You have to hope that, like Patrick Graham wanting to run more press man but not having the personnel to do it, Jason Garrett will want to run more short passing concepts and blend a little West Coast offense. I think it'll be our best shot at being a feared offense going forward.
Sounds good to me!
Just checking for the "What I Would Have Done" thread from Sy. Please Sy. We need you right now.
And the young OL should also benefit from normal OTAs, camp, preseason, better coaching (they seemed to improve when JJ got involved and canned Columbo) and the experience they gained last yr.
I'm not gnashing my teeth about the OL, like a lot of people.
Sounds good to me!
That and the improved WRs will spread the D more. Harder to stack the box with a WR like Golladay that can make teams pay for man-2-man.
1. The WRs Kenny Golladay and Toney can get open quickly. Toney appears to get quick separation and can provide an element of surprise. Golliday can be thrown too if if he does not get a lot of separation. Slayton should be able to get open easier without being much of a focus. If Ross makes the team, which I expect, he and Slayton will make the defense be more honest. Shepard, I am not really counting on because of his concussion tend but if healthy, he can get open quickly as well.
2. Kyle Rudoplh is an experienced and smart player and can really help blocking and supporting the tackles when need be. He can also be a safety valve and trusted player for Jones. Jones can be more confident in him then in Engram.
3. Barkley is back and can keep defenses honest. The big if with Barkely will be how is his blocking and blitz pickup in year three. If it is improved, that will make a huge difference. Also, it appears the Giants like our new FA running back because of his ability is all aspects of being a running including pass protection.
4. Coaching. I believe that Judge has put together an oline coaching staff that matches better how he wants them to be taught. Last season had a lot of flux with COVID, Columbo and then DeGuglielmo. I think we will see a better coached line this season that will get more in person time with the coaches.
5. Daniel Jones in year three, this is still a question mark but I think he makes the jump, has year 2 with Judge and Garrett, the game should slow down and he should recognize where to go quicker with thee ball. Also tied in with #1 and the receivers, I think he will have more open receivers to actually get the ball too and his margin of error will get bigger. We saw how his running ability can keep the defense honest and he can be smarter on how to protect himself, but defenses have to be careful for designed runs. If his pocket presence improves he can be really dangerous.
There is a good chance that the coaching staff realizes that some of the offense line problems where not all on the offense line and were more of a team offense issue. Obviously, it was mentioned by asshats and Gettleman that they were looking at oline, but like every position they want to bring in competition and push current players to be better or have their spot taken. Just because they were interested in oline does not mean they don't like the potential of their projected starters. I also do wish we added a guard high for competition’s sake and to take over for Hernandez, even if he does great this year. I do have some concerns about the oline more than most areas but am optimistic and have what I hope is not an unhealthy trust in this coaching staff.
Ofcourse there are the reasons related to the actual oline but those will be scrutinized and up for debate regarding each players. Just a few thoughts on the actual oline though to consider. We had 3 rookies on the oline last year that now have a year on an NFL weight and training program (should really help Shane and Peart), Peart and Hernandez both looked like they were really effected with COVID. Hernandez is in a contract year.
Solder may have benefited from a year aware to focus on his family, get healthy, and refocus. As a backup, he may be a great asset. Judge also knows him very well and saw him up close when he was successful Maybe Judge better understands how to use him in a way that brings out his best.
Is Kyle Murphy this years Gates? Does Gates make an even bigger jump in year 2 of playing a position that he had not played before--a whole off season to focus on center and to work on areas to improve relating to being a center.
What do we have with Zach Fulton. He has starting experience. He started 16 games as a rookie. Is this the stop where it all comes together for him. He signed a 4 year 28 million contract with the Texans before coming to the Giants. I don't judge anyone who does not do great on that mess of a franchise. Maybe he is just quality depth or maybe we will luck out.
Just checking for the "What I Would Have Done" thread from Sy. Please Sy. We need you right now.
Seems like a good analysis, not sure why this response was appropriate.
Getting more talent was vital.
We know Gates made dramatic progress over the course of the year.
We know the running game got into a really good groove for about 6-8 weeks before Jones got hurt, and we know nobody in the NFL thinks Wayne Gallman or Alfred Morris were the reasons why.
We know Jones' turnovers went down as all of that happened.
I think many would be well served going back and watching some of those Baldy breakdowns. Especially some of the ones from earlier in the year before the team started winning because he saw progress where many of us were still frustrated because the corner hadn't been turned yet. The NYG coaching staff and management team seems to feel the way he did.
At the very core, everyone wants to believe the team is in the right hands and improving.
The Giants were shitty in short passing because the defense was playing up a lot and we ran a shit ton of under 10 yard routes (at the same time). I remember one play (can't remember the who against, just the break down of the play) and we sent 4 out (two TE's and two receivers and they all ran various flat routes within 7 yards of LOS. How the fuck do you complete a pass in the scenario ? There had to be 11 guys within the catch area (our 4 and their 7 defenders).. It was ugly and quite pointless.
The Giants were shitty in short passing because the defense was playing up a lot and we ran a shit ton of under 10 yard routes (at the same time). I remember one play (can't remember the who against, just the break down of the play) and we sent 4 out (two TE's and two receivers and they all ran various flat routes within 7 yards of LOS. How the fuck do you complete a pass in the scenario ? There had to be 11 guys within the catch area (our 4 and their 7 defenders).. It was ugly and quite pointless.
Obviously it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows from day but I think many expected there would be some growing pains with a rookie LT, first time center, no preseason, etc.
Did the Giants fix their offensive line “once and for all?” They certainly gave it the old college try - ( New Window )
Our receivers last year absolutely sucked at creating separation forcing Jones to constantly throw into tight coverage.
Wilson, Rodgers, and Mahomes (especially Wilson and Mahomes) have fantastic receivers that actually get open.
A ton of all of that can be attributed to the lack of weapons. Receivers couldn't separate to get open. Nobody could break a big play. The additions at WR, TE, and Barkley can have a much bigger impact on DJ's success than a new RG.
Just checking for the "What I Would Have Done" thread from Sy. Please Sy. We need you right now.
Bye.
Agreed Ryan. He’s like a John Jerry type. Long term solution, no, but he can step in and perform adequately if we suffered an injury or having issues with one of the younger players.
They need to open up the deep passing game..I want to see less max protect 2 route plays, or 4 guys running short curls. Will the Giants give up some pressure? Sure but without deep concepts you are taking away Jone's best attribute besides his mobility. I dont think hes ever going to be a dink and dunk WCO guy.
The Giants were shitty in short passing because the defense was playing up a lot and we ran a shit ton of under 10 yard routes (at the same time). I remember one play (can't remember the who against, just the break down of the play) and we sent 4 out (two TE's and two receivers and they all ran various flat routes within 7 yards of LOS. How the fuck do you complete a pass in the scenario ? There had to be 11 guys within the catch area (our 4 and their 7 defenders).. It was ugly and quite pointless.
Both time holding the ball and "aggressiveness" are directly affected by how long receivers need to get some separation (not to mention the play call) and how much separation (or lack thereof) they get. Neither is a great indicator of QB play in and of themselves. Tate never had separation. Shepard, very little. And they would be two key guys in short yardage situations.
In 2011, the Giants made up for an O-Line that was clearly on the decline (and couldn't run-block for love or money) with a dynamic trio of WR's and Jake Ballard.
Skill players who can separate quickly absolutely will make a difference and help the OL with protection. All of our additions should help greatly in this area. Don't count out John Ross. Yes, he has not come close to meeting his expectations as a player, but just sending this guy down find with his elite speed will force defenders to follow, thus opening up space for others.
The Giants' weakest link continues to be the OL and it remains surprising that the prevalent view by the team is that the current personnel have been making great strides and is sufficient enough "as is" to compete. It sure would have been nice to have added an insurance policy in the draft and, to me, it would have made sense to either draft Darrisaw at twenty or trade back up into the second round using some of the acquired draft capital to get an immediate starter (Eichenberg, Carman, Banks, Cosmi, Humphrey, etc).
But not much can be done at this point other than hoping the team's prevalent view is correct and the steps you have outlined will be the difference in 2021...
The Giants receivers as a group were among the very worst in average separation, which automatically is going to affect his aggressiveness index(if most receivers are having trouble gaining separation on their routes, which they were..then it’s going then a larger percentage of his throw are going to be tight window/aggressive throws). This same problem can directly affect how long he’s holding the ball.
I’m not surprised Brady’s average time to throw would be lower because the matchup problems their skill group presented, receivers were likely getting open more consistently, which allows Brady to get the ball out sooner.
The harder it is for our receivers to get open on their routes affects the how quickly Jones can get the ball out and also how often he needs to make aggressive throws into tighter coverage.. Think this is a big reason why they made it such a point of emphasis to upgrade skill positions.
Upgrading the receiving options looked like a painfully obvious area for the team to improve.
We had nobody like that on our roster, nobody close. You could throw Rudolph in there as well and those two also happen to be exceptionally better red zone targets than the guys we had last year. Rudolph’s catch rate on red zone targets is exceptional.
The second part is our interior OL was terrible last season. The trio of Hernandez, Lemieux and Zeitler were just bad. Putting them next to rookies and our no longer around RT made things worse. I feel like we will see big improvement from Thomas and Peart. its the interior I worry about. If Jones cant step up this team is in trouble.
Better weapons should improve things but if the OL doesnt improve by a large margin this team will be in the 5-8 win range again.
1. The WRs Kenny Golladay and Toney can get open quickly. Toney appears to get quick separation and can provide an element of surprise. Golliday can be thrown too if if he does not get a lot of separation. Slayton should be able to get open easier without being much of a focus. If Ross makes the team, which I expect, he and Slayton will make the defense be more honest. Shepard, I am not really counting on because of his concussion tend but if healthy, he can get open quickly as well.
2. Kyle Rudoplh is an experienced and smart player and can really help blocking and supporting the tackles when need be. He can also be a safety valve and trusted player for Jones. Jones can be more confident in him then in Engram.
3. Barkley is back and can keep defenses honest. The big if with Barkely will be how is his blocking and blitz pickup in year three. If it is improved, that will make a huge difference. Also, it appears the Giants like our new FA running back because of his ability is all aspects of being a running including pass protection.
4. Coaching. I believe that Judge has put together an oline coaching staff that matches better how he wants them to be taught. Last season had a lot of flux with COVID, Columbo and then DeGuglielmo. I think we will see a better coached line this season that will get more in person time with the coaches.
5. Daniel Jones in year three, this is still a question mark but I think he makes the jump, has year 2 with Judge and Garrett, the game should slow down and he should recognize where to go quicker with thee ball. Also tied in with #1 and the receivers, I think he will have more open receivers to actually get the ball too and his margin of error will get bigger. We saw how his running ability can keep the defense honest and he can be smarter on how to protect himself, but defenses have to be careful for designed runs. If his pocket presence improves he can be really dangerous.
There is a good chance that the coaching staff realizes that some of the offense line problems where not all on the offense line and were more of a team offense issue. Obviously, it was mentioned by asshats and Gettleman that they were looking at oline, but like every position they want to bring in competition and push current players to be better or have their spot taken. Just because they were interested in oline does not mean they don't like the potential of their projected starters. I also do wish we added a guard high for competition’s sake and to take over for Hernandez, even if he does great this year. I do have some concerns about the oline more than most areas but am optimistic and have what I hope is not an unhealthy trust in this coaching staff.
Ofcourse there are the reasons related to the actual oline but those will be scrutinized and up for debate regarding each players. Just a few thoughts on the actual oline though to consider. We had 3 rookies on the oline last year that now have a year on an NFL weight and training program (should really help Shane and Peart), Peart and Hernandez both looked like they were really effected with COVID. Hernandez is in a contract year.
Solder may have benefited from a year aware to focus on his family, get healthy, and refocus. As a backup, he may be a great asset. Judge also knows him very well and saw him up close when he was successful Maybe Judge better understands how to use him in a way that brings out his best.
Is Kyle Murphy this years Gates? Does Gates make an even bigger jump in year 2 of playing a position that he had not played before--a whole off season to focus on center and to work on areas to improve relating to being a center.
What do we have with Zach Fulton. He has starting experience. He started 16 games as a rookie. Is this the stop where it all comes together for him. He signed a 4 year 28 million contract with the Texans before coming to the Giants. I don't judge anyone who does not do great on that mess of a franchise. Maybe he is just quality depth or maybe we will luck out.
Nice, though we have nothing in Zach Fulton, he gave up 11 sacks last year.
Jones gets hit so much. But is it a matter of the line not holding up or Jones not diagnosing well downfield?
Jones had 7th most incompletions in the nfl which were faulted to receivers, despite ranking only 19th in pass attempts.
Two points unrelated to the offensive line but absolutely related to a struggling saquonless offense when considered with other issues stated above.
Jones gets hit so much. But is it a matter of the line not holding up or Jones not diagnosing well downfield?
By all accounts the receivers played poorly, the worst of which was Evan Engram..who happened to lead the team in targets. So our worst performing target, was the one most often targeted.
All that being said, to me Jones had a reputation coming out as a guy who did want to push it downfield, resisted check downs, and that’s one area where he absolutely needs to get better...taking less sacks. As bad as the oline has played I know Eli(just like his brother) would be throwing it away more than Jones to avoid the sacks. It helps alleviate two issues, negative plays which kill drives and the turnovers which can arise from taking those sacks. To me that’s the single biggest area where he has to make a concerted effort to improve. Barkley will help with that, a check down to Barkley is not your average checkdown, and Toney could help in that regard as well if he transitions what he did well at Florida to the nfl.
Jones had 7th most incompletions in the nfl which were faulted to receivers, despite ranking only 19th in pass attempts.
Two points unrelated to the offensive line but absolutely related to a struggling saquonless offense when considered with other issues stated above.
We had some of the worst separation with guys who don't make contested catches. But it's all DJ's fault. I've been beating this drum for a while, but not many guys are finding success in that offense last year, let along a guy in his second year in his second offense with COVID offseason.
That's actually not true at all.
You seem to make some declarations that don't have any basis in football knowledge. Did you ever actually play the sport?
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As a group Giants receivers caught 41% of contested catches, which ranked 26th in the league(Golladay by comparison has a 63% contested rate from 2018-2020 which ranked second in the nfl, and only Allen Robinson had more contested catches in that span, but played in 9 more games).
Jones had 7th most incompletions in the nfl which were faulted to receivers, despite ranking only 19th in pass attempts.
Two points unrelated to the offensive line but absolutely related to a struggling saquonless offense when considered with other issues stated above.
We had some of the worst separation with guys who don't make contested catches. But it's all DJ's fault. I've been beating this drum for a while, but not many guys are finding success in that offense last year, let along a guy in his second year in his second offense with COVID offseason.
Stop. If inexperience and Covid were the complete excuse, explain Justin Herbert.
DJ had a bad year. There were some things that went against him, and he also didn't play his best. We saw in 2019 that he's capable of playing better than he did in 2020, and I think it's reasonable to look forward to him returning to his 2019 form. But that doesn't mean pretending 2020 didn't happen.
Promoting one of DJ's two seasons while denying the other only makes you sound like you don't know what you're talking about.
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As a group Giants receivers caught 41% of contested catches, which ranked 26th in the league(Golladay by comparison has a 63% contested rate from 2018-2020 which ranked second in the nfl, and only Allen Robinson had more contested catches in that span, but played in 9 more games).
Jones had 7th most incompletions in the nfl which were faulted to receivers, despite ranking only 19th in pass attempts.
Two points unrelated to the offensive line but absolutely related to a struggling saquonless offense when considered with other issues stated above.
We had some of the worst separation with guys who don't make contested catches. But it's all DJ's fault. I've been beating this drum for a while, but not many guys are finding success in that offense last year, let along a guy in his second year in his second offense with COVID offseason.
The separation stats, as we know them, are only based on the receiver that the QB threw to. They can be easily skewed by QBs who might get jumpy on reads and throw INTO coverage.
I've come around on the blame game - it's not helpful or productive. But neither is the excuse game.
At least it’s the same system. Oh, it’s not, we got a new HC, OC, and OL coach (who ends up being replaced).
Fun fact, we then practiced on zoom and had zero preseason games to work out the kinks, correct things, and get the rookie adjusted to NFL speed. But, at least we started against weak Ds? No, we didn’t. At all. Then the dollop of crap on this sh*t cake: Saquon gets hurt week 2.
We try to protect them some by shortening routes and going straight ahead power running. But with our WRs, that wasn’t a recipe for success.
The OL was horrid last year, especially early on. But FFS, could you draw up a worse situation? Yes, other teams had some of the same challenges, but not all if them together.
The OL doesn’t have to be 5 pro bowlers, it has to be good enough to execute your concepts. I have some hopes we can move in that direction this year.
Jones gets hit so much. But is it a matter of the line not holding up or Jones not diagnosing well downfield?
That is an important question. Is Jones holding the ball too long and throwing riskier passes because nobody can get open, or is he holding it too long and throwing riskier passes because he's not recognizing defenses and getting to the correct reads on time.
If it's the former, the influx of talent should help. If it's the latter, I'm not sure.
DJ led the NFL in fumbles in 2020.
He didn't set a new record, so I guess that's an improvement.
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a better job protecting the football. DJ seems to be getting better in that category.
DJ led the NFL in fumbles in 2020.
He didn't set a new record, so I guess that's an improvement.
Improvement is an improvement. I said it since week 1, he was much stronger and cognizant of ball security. Another year in the weight room and those balls that were squeaking out will cut another few fumbles. Not to mention a better team around him will cut some more. Is he ever going to be a low fumble guy? Probably not, but it's about total turnovers. We'll see where he stands next year. He also had a bunch of fumbles credited to him that other QBs didn't have. I watch a ton of football and I haven't seen that many fuck up fumbles that get scored to the QB, even though it wasn't his fault, at the NFL level. Type of shit you see in high school games.
Daniel Jones faced the 4th most blitzes in the NFL last year, and was 19th in attempts. The only quarterback(with more than 100 pass attempts) that was blitzed at a higher rate than Jones was Cam Newton(take a look what New England did regarding their skill players in the offseason).
Throw in playing time on the offensive line for 3 rookies, and a 2nd year player in first year ever playing center..that's a recipe for disaster.
It's easy to blitz more when you can successfully lock down the oppositions targets in man coverage.(I think Giants defensive sack total will see a bump this year because of this). Who were the blitz beaters, the guys making the other team think twice about blitzing, no Barkley to think about? Why wouldn't you blitz the hell out of the Giants.
Barkley, Golladay, Toney, and yeah even Ross...all guys capable of making a team pay for being overaggressive.
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In comment 15252054 Zeke's Alibi said:
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a better job protecting the football. DJ seems to be getting better in that category.
DJ led the NFL in fumbles in 2020.
He didn't set a new record, so I guess that's an improvement.
Improvement is an improvement. I said it since week 1, he was much stronger and cognizant of ball security. Another year in the weight room and those balls that were squeaking out will cut another few fumbles. Not to mention a better team around him will cut some more. Is he ever going to be a low fumble guy? Probably not, but it's about total turnovers. We'll see where he stands next year. He also had a bunch of fumbles credited to him that other QBs didn't have. I watch a ton of football and I haven't seen that many fuck up fumbles that get scored to the QB, even though it wasn't his fault, at the NFL level. Type of shit you see in high school games.
Part of his cutting down turnovers also came at the expense of his playmaking. If you're not aware of that, I don't know if I can help explain football enough to have it make sense to you.
I'll just stick to what I said earlier. The blame game is tired and not helpful. And the excuse game is exactly the same.
Stop. If inexperience and Covid were the complete excuse, explain Justin Herbert.
DJ had a bad year. There were some things that went against him, and he also didn't play his best. We saw in 2019 that he's capable of playing better than he did in 2020, and I think it's reasonable to look forward to him returning to his 2019 form. But that doesn't mean pretending 2020 didn't happen.
Promoting one of DJ's two seasons while denying the other only makes you sound like you don't know what you're talking about.
Herbert is interesting comparison, because his line did play just about as poorly as the Giants.
However, with regards to the Chargers, the glaring difference would be the surrounding skill players.
You are talking about Keenan Allen(a top 15 WR in the league), with Mike Williams(a former first rounder, that was coming off 1000 yard season where he *averaged* 20 yards a catch and also had a 10 td season under his belt), with Hunter Henry(a TE that just singed a 3yr 37 million contract..numbers Engram won't touch), and Austin Ekeler(coming off 92 catch 993 yard, 10td receiving season as a running back! An accomplished receiving RB with 4.4 speed) to what the Giants trotted out there post Barkley..it's absolutely no comparison.
If you can't acknowledge the talent differential in the Chargers skill group to the Giants last year I don't know what to tell you, the difference is pretty glaring.
Underscoring that sentiment, Herbert ranked 30th in the NFL in blitz rate last year..as a rookie.
Stick Herbert on the Giants last year and
A)He's not winning AP offensive rookie of the year
B)Giants still wouldn't make the playoffs.
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In comment 15252036 Zeke's Alibi said:
Stop. If inexperience and Covid were the complete excuse, explain Justin Herbert.
DJ had a bad year. There were some things that went against him, and he also didn't play his best. We saw in 2019 that he's capable of playing better than he did in 2020, and I think it's reasonable to look forward to him returning to his 2019 form. But that doesn't mean pretending 2020 didn't happen.
Promoting one of DJ's two seasons while denying the other only makes you sound like you don't know what you're talking about.
Herbert is interesting comparison, because his line did play just about as poorly as the Giants.
However, with regards to the Chargers, the glaring difference would be the surrounding skill players.
You are talking about Keenan Allen(a top 15 WR in the league), with Mike Williams(a former first rounder, that was coming off 1000 yard season where he *averaged* 20 yards a catch and also had a 10 td season under his belt), with Hunter Henry(a TE that just singed a 3yr 37 million contract..numbers Engram won't touch), and Austin Ekeler(coming off 92 catch 993 yard, 10td receiving season as a running back! An accomplished receiving RB with 4.4 speed) to what the Giants trotted out there post Barkley..it's absolutely no comparison.
If you can't acknowledge the talent differential in the Chargers skill group to the Giants last year I don't know what to tell you, the difference is pretty glaring.
Underscoring that sentiment, Herbert ranked 30th in the NFL in blitz rate last year..as a rookie.
Stick Herbert on the Giants last year and
A)He's not winning AP offensive rookie of the year
B)Giants still wouldn't make the playoffs.
I think that skill positions and QBs are a two-way street.
Tom Brady has won several Super Bowls with middling skill position talent, hasn't he? Eli was often loaded with great receivers to start the year but wound up making chicken salad out of chicken feathers by the end of a few seasons, didn't he?
Jones was definitely hamstrung by his skill position crew. And Herbert was definitely aided by his. But can you honestly say without doubt that the delta is entirely because of the skill position players and not at all because one of the two QBs had a really good year and the other one had a really bad year?
I'm not trying to declare DJ a failure or a bust. I'm just trying to acknowledge that he had a bad season last year. I think anyone who denies that is kidding themselves, but whatever.
"Daniel Jones ranked 24th in the NFL in terms of how long he held on to the ball. The average time to throw for Jones is 2.76 seconds."
Also would love to see OLINE stats and QB stats in close games vs blowouts vs each team.
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I can recall the year before Barkley had an unreal game vs Washington which helped skew his numbers.
Jones ranked 18th on the list, despite all the factors described above: dead last in yac, top 7 in drops, bottom 6 in contested catch%, bottom 4 in separation , #2 in blitz rate, 32nd rated oline in pass pro.(For comparison Herbert was 14th rated QB). This is a ranking that does *attempt* to separate quarterback performance from supporting cast from two separate data sets.
I wasn’t in this convo to dissect Jones, was merely agreeing with OP that upgrading skill positions in 2020 could have a ripple effect in helping the oline with pass pro. The Giants actions(and words) in the offseason seem to indicate they thought the best way to improve the offense was to upgrade skill positions(weapons) based on review of the 2020 season.
I agree with them.
Yes, Jones isn’t off the hook, he needs to improve. I do think he can be the quarterback long term in NY, we’ll see how 2021 plays out.
End of Season QB Rankings by Passer Rating + QBR + PFF - ( New Window )
Plus a respectable WR Corp allows DJ to audible in and out of the run more readily.
Having a ‘gadget’ player forces Ds to cover 53 yards, every down, which should help SS, and if someone teaches EE to put his catching hand OVER the top of the ball so even a drop heads DOWNWARD, maybe him too.
Golladay doesn't light the world on fire with his separation stats either, BUT he does make a lot of contested catches.
I think Jones is always going to be a 'tight window' QB so the best remedy is getting guys like Golladay to complement that trait.
No relation other than I grew up watching Yankee games with Rizzuto, Bill White and Frank Messer. Loved those guys.
I still play Paradise By The Dashboard Light to here his voice every once in a while.
Scooter!