he runs worse routes than the typical first round rookie in the first place. The guy caught 70 of 84 passes thrown his way over 11 games. That's basically 1 incompletion per game for any reason - miscommunication, defender making a good play, bad throw, drop, etc. That 83% catch rate is excellent (right in line with both Bama WRs) and his YPC (14) is solid too so it's not a case of him just accumulating dump offs. And on targets 20+ yards down field he supposedly caught 7/9 for 4 touchdowns and a perfect passer rating. His catch% is better than just about every recent SEC comp we've seen suggested was (Harvin, Deebo, AJ Brown, Landry, etc)....
But watching the clips of all his targets over the course of full games this past year I just haven't seen any plays where he looks like Rueben Randle or Evan Engram hanging his QB out to dry with a miscommunication or sloppily letting a defender cut off his route. And if the stats are accurate it's because he caught almost every ball that was thrown his direction.
Eric, great post--the stats in 1st para are eye opening and the 2nd para (I copied) is a LOL.
Now let Garrett (and Callahan) and Jones do the Lord's work. Oh, and the OL too.
Love the optimism, and it’s definitely founded. I am very excited to see this team come together, as well.
Are there OTAs, Mini Camps this year? I can’t wait to see the new Giants, even in drills.
Thanks for the typo!
Rookie mini-camp is set. May 14-16. NFLPA is raising a fuss and nothing has been said about other offseason activities other than they said players will not show up for offseason strength and conditioning. Doesn't bode well.
but if you aren't planning on keeping him next year and paying him top 5 TE dollars, the Giants should really look to move him before the trade deadline. I'd rather get a 2-3 than have him leave in FA and pray for a comp pick.
Or maybe he learns how to catch and stays healthy and he has a 1k yard season. Who knows.
I appreciate the review and feel that it is a fair assessment
with a touch of optimism
I think the Giants roster building will continue next year.
We won't know the effects of the additional draft picks until next year but the Giants have set themselves up to add even more quality players
This is the best Giants coaching staff in years and with the infusion of young talent this is going to be a perennially competitive team
There will be ups and downs but the arrow is pointing up
This is how to build a team
but if you aren't planning on keeping him next year and paying him top 5 TE dollars, the Giants should really look to move him before the trade deadline. I'd rather get a 2-3 than have him leave in FA and pray for a comp pick.
Or maybe he learns how to catch and stays healthy and he has a 1k yard season. Who knows.
Tim, a thoughtful poster, usually (:, what is your basis for the comment header? As to your 2nd para, I can't think of too many instances where a guy with the dropsies/lack of concentration over the middle turns it around in an off-season. And getting a 2-3 for EE is a fairy tale. If anyone had offered that, he would be gone and the Giants would have had the pick last weekend.
wrt Toney, a number of pundits apparently cannot distinguish between a "gadget receiver" and a quality receiver who can perform gadget plays. It seems quite clear that Toney is in the latter category. And as part of this--no reflection on you, Eric, just an addition--I would be shocked if the Giants cannot teach Toney to use his fast-twitch capacity to cut one or more times on a dime into pre-pass techniques to get open, as opposed to solely capacity to break away after catching the ball. No more twiching at the LOS, but learning to get the db covering him to turn his hips in the wrong direction, or to completely break the wrong way and leave Toney open. Double cuts, too.
Well, maybe. There are enough reports that say he needs a lot of technique work on reading defenses and route running to be a concern that he is more of a gadget guy at this stage. That said, some of the moves I saw him put on CBs to get open were impressive. Still, NFL route running is very precise, within inches you have to run the right route or the ball is going fall incomplete or worse.
It may depend on how much focus he puts into football (versus other interests).
To me he is like the collegiate OT or DE who got away with "God given" size or athleticism and didn't have to learn a lot of technique.
Kadarius had a pretty good year without having to learn the precision required in the pros. If he has the discipline and desire he could be one of the outstanding Giant players of the decade.
Someone made the fun comment that he has the potential to be the Frank Gifford of the modern era; WR, Flanker and RB who can throw TDs. ST ability is a plus. (But can he drop kick?)
Judge just said that Toney has to improve his route running.
Judge says in every single interview (today's included) that all players have things to work on to improve regardless of who they are and he's right.
Every rookie receiver entering the NFL has to improve their route running - devonta smith included. Not every receiver gets labeled a gadget player though just because they were used one way in college though and in Toney's case I think it misses the mark. When I hear that I think of someone like Phillip Dorsett who only caught 50% of the balls thrown his way despite the 4.2 speed. Or projects like Hester/Ginn. Statistically at least Toney's performance last year was very different than those types.
If you look at the last 2 years it’s amazing what the team has done
The FA/trade haul has been stunning. Bradbury, Martinez, Ryan, LW, Peppers, Golladay, Jackson, Rudolph are just the marquee names. There are at least a half dozen decent depth signings as well. The draft seems equally productive with 5/6 projected starters from the last 2 years. And there are 5/6 backups on the roster from those drafts, too. That’s 14 or so starters just from the last two years. And, in general, I think there’s a positive feeling about our talent level. Someone deserves some props for this.
The Giants finished 6-10 last year. If Danny Dimes doesn't fumble,
the Giants finish 8-8 and win the division. In short, they were not a terrible team last year and are much better this year. But then so, too, are the Cowboys (defensively) and the Eagles offensively. Washington added a disruptive LB (Jamin Davis) but not much else IMO. I see a three team race with Washington the odd team out. Should be fun, exciting, and hopefully not disappointing.
jmo but I think the guy at risk of seeing a lot less snaps unless he steps his game up again is Slayton. His catch% dropped from an already not so great 57% as a rookie to 52% in year 2. Throwing to him was literally a coin flip. His deep speed is near elite and he is very good at making acrobatic catches downfield but how many times have we seen him unable to secure a short catch over the middle because a defender plays through his back?
He may be the one best served playing a gadget role cycled on the field at opportune moments to take shots down the field (or at least make the defense have to defend that). At least until Shepard limps off.
I think part of that was the Barkley effect. With Engram the only other "weapon" that scared defenses, I think Slayton saw a lot more bracket coverage (+ had the lingering leg injury). And while 52% is bad, he still led the team in yards/target at 7.8 (Tate = 7.5, SS = 7.3). I also think it's important to consider that Slayton's average target was 12.6 yards downfield compared to 8.3 yards downfield for Shepard so you'd expect a slightly lower catch%. All things considered, Slayton would be a solid #2 WR if he just got back to his rookie numbers with 57% catch% (on average target of 14.1 yards).
That said, I do think Golladay becomes the primary deep target, which reduces the targets for Slayton. That said, his #s in his 2019 pro bowl season were 56% catch% and 14.6 adot (ave depth of tgt). Pretty similar to Slayton's, albeit he was arguably the primary target for Detroit in 2019.
RE: I'm more optimistic on Engram than most others on BBI,
but if you aren't planning on keeping him next year and paying him top 5 TE dollars, the Giants should really look to move him before the trade deadline. I'd rather get a 2-3 than have him leave in FA and pray for a comp pick.
Or maybe he learns how to catch and stays healthy and he has a 1k yard season. Who knows.
I think if someone offered a 2nd for Engram, he'd be gone. A 3rd next year is probably a toss up in terms of what they'd want.
nobody is offering a 2nd for Engram. They watch the film we do.
btw i posted in another thread, that Tyke Tolbert does not see Toney as a gadget or just a slot, but a full time WR who can play inside and out and do many other things and he expects it this year. It was in a AP review of the Giants draft in my local paper. I tried to find a link but couldn't.
I'm still salty about losing Parsons and the prospect of playing him twice a year for forever, but this write-up actually made me feel quite a bit better about our 2021 offseason.
just think of the current top 4 receivers Slayton is the most "1 trick pony" in his skill set. That 1 trick is the most important trick there is (big plays downfield) so I am by no means getting rid of him, just think that could reduce his playing time more than the other 2 vets.
just think of the current top 4 receivers Slayton is the most "1 trick pony" in his skill set. That 1 trick is the most important trick there is (big plays downfield) so I am by no means getting rid of him, just think that could reduce his playing time more than the other 2 vets.
Agreed. Though I can still see him "start" opposite Golladay, especially early in the season to ease Toney's into things. Having 2 downfield threats on the field with Golladay/Slayton though could space things out a bit and give Barkley a little extra room.
Shepard's great at creating separation, but 1) Ds will be happy giving up 6-8 yard catches and forcing the Giants to prove they can sustain long drives and 2) dropping a S down to stop SB also clogs the middle and the passing lanes for SS.
RE: MG & Eric, I've had a hard time finding any statistical evidence
he runs worse routes than the typical first round rookie in the first place. The guy caught 70 of 84 passes thrown his way over 11 games. That's basically 1 incompletion per game for any reason - miscommunication, defender making a good play, bad throw, drop, etc. That 83% catch rate is excellent (right in line with both Bama WRs) and his YPC (14) is solid too so it's not a case of him just accumulating dump offs. And on targets 20+ yards down field he supposedly caught 7/9 for 4 touchdowns and a perfect passer rating. His catch% is better than just about every recent SEC comp we've seen suggested was (Harvin, Deebo, AJ Brown, Landry, etc).
I can buy that it was an issue that held him back from getting on the field in prior seasons because why else would a coach not play a player as talented as he is?
But watching the clips of all his targets over the course of full games this past year I just haven't seen any plays where he looks like Rueben Randle or Evan Engram hanging his QB out to dry with a miscommunication or sloppily letting a defender cut off his route. And if the stats are accurate it's because he caught almost every ball that was thrown his direction.
He just hasn't played a lot, either. He gets a lot of credit for recommitting himself to improving and fighting through injuries that crashed his college seasons, but he really had just the one fine year doing it. He's a bit raw. The physical gifts are encouraging for the future though. If 2020 was the first step, the Giants got a good WR just scratching the surface of his potential.
To see how defenses react when Golladay, Toney, Slayton, Ingram and Barkley are on the field at the same time. I also figure Toney should be able to run the Wildcat.
TTH this is the area where the selection seems most risky to me
He just hasn't played a lot, either. He gets a lot of credit for recommitting himself to improving and fighting through injuries that crashed his college seasons, but he really had just the one fine year doing it. He's a bit raw. The physical gifts are encouraging for the future though. If 2020 was the first step, the Giants got a good WR just scratching the surface of his potential.
This pick reminds me a little bit of JPP in that he was nowhere on the radar at the beginning of his final season in college, then came out of nowhere to play at a really high level. Then when he tested like an athletic freak he was kind of mislabeled as a workout warrior when he was actually pretty dominant on the field - just in a really small sample size.
The biggest mark against Toney's resume, especially compared to someone like Devonta Smith who is the appropriate comparison here since that's who most expected, is the shorter track record. Smith was productive and durable from day 1. It's less of a negative relative to Waddle and I think it was thegratefulhead who pointed out that those of us who were excited about Waddle are probably more similarly excited about Toney than those who were more Smith or bust. Smith would have likely been the safest option of the 3 but if all 3 have big upsides I think it might have been even safer to secure the extra first next year.
Of all the rookie wr last season, the one with the best rookie season
looking back he was clearly under appreciated because Burrow and Chase were the headliners of that offense, but his final collegiate season was pretty insane. 91% catch rate on 122 targets (caught 111 balls with a 13.9 ypc).
15 games
111 receptions
1540 yards
18 tds
He basically had the type of season Devonta Smith probably would have had if Waddle hadn't gotten hurt and he'd had to share some of those targets.
But watching the clips of all his targets over the course of full games this past year I just haven't seen any plays where he looks like Rueben Randle or Evan Engram hanging his QB out to dry with a miscommunication or sloppily letting a defender cut off his route. And if the stats are accurate it's because he caught almost every ball that was thrown his direction.
Now let Garrett (and Callahan) and Jones do the Lord's work. Oh, and the OL too.
Are there OTAs, Mini Camps this year? I can’t wait to see the new Giants, even in drills.
Thanks for the typo!
Rookie mini-camp is set. May 14-16. NFLPA is raising a fuss and nothing has been said about other offseason activities other than they said players will not show up for offseason strength and conditioning. Doesn't bode well.
But I am getting optimistic about this secondary
Or maybe he learns how to catch and stays healthy and he has a 1k yard season. Who knows.
with a touch of optimism
I think the Giants roster building will continue next year.
We won't know the effects of the additional draft picks until next year but the Giants have set themselves up to add even more quality players
This is the best Giants coaching staff in years and with the infusion of young talent this is going to be a perennially competitive team
There will be ups and downs but the arrow is pointing up
This is how to build a team
Or maybe he learns how to catch and stays healthy and he has a 1k yard season. Who knows.
Quote:
wrt Toney, a number of pundits apparently cannot distinguish between a "gadget receiver" and a quality receiver who can perform gadget plays. It seems quite clear that Toney is in the latter category. And as part of this--no reflection on you, Eric, just an addition--I would be shocked if the Giants cannot teach Toney to use his fast-twitch capacity to cut one or more times on a dime into pre-pass techniques to get open, as opposed to solely capacity to break away after catching the ball. No more twiching at the LOS, but learning to get the db covering him to turn his hips in the wrong direction, or to completely break the wrong way and leave Toney open. Double cuts, too.
Well, maybe. There are enough reports that say he needs a lot of technique work on reading defenses and route running to be a concern that he is more of a gadget guy at this stage. That said, some of the moves I saw him put on CBs to get open were impressive. Still, NFL route running is very precise, within inches you have to run the right route or the ball is going fall incomplete or worse.
It may depend on how much focus he puts into football (versus other interests).
To me he is like the collegiate OT or DE who got away with "God given" size or athleticism and didn't have to learn a lot of technique.
Kadarius had a pretty good year without having to learn the precision required in the pros. If he has the discipline and desire he could be one of the outstanding Giant players of the decade.
Someone made the fun comment that he has the potential to be the Frank Gifford of the modern era; WR, Flanker and RB who can throw TDs. ST ability is a plus. (But can he drop kick?)
Judge says in every single interview (today's included) that all players have things to work on to improve regardless of who they are and he's right.
Every rookie receiver entering the NFL has to improve their route running - devonta smith included. Not every receiver gets labeled a gadget player though just because they were used one way in college though and in Toney's case I think it misses the mark. When I hear that I think of someone like Phillip Dorsett who only caught 50% of the balls thrown his way despite the 4.2 speed. Or projects like Hester/Ginn. Statistically at least Toney's performance last year was very different than those types.
jmo but I think the guy at risk of seeing a lot less snaps unless he steps his game up again is Slayton. His catch% dropped from an already not so great 57% as a rookie to 52% in year 2. Throwing to him was literally a coin flip. His deep speed is near elite and he is very good at making acrobatic catches downfield but how many times have we seen him unable to secure a short catch over the middle because a defender plays through his back?
He may be the one best served playing a gadget role cycled on the field at opportune moments to take shots down the field (or at least make the defense have to defend that). At least until Shepard limps off.
I think part of that was the Barkley effect. With Engram the only other "weapon" that scared defenses, I think Slayton saw a lot more bracket coverage (+ had the lingering leg injury). And while 52% is bad, he still led the team in yards/target at 7.8 (Tate = 7.5, SS = 7.3). I also think it's important to consider that Slayton's average target was 12.6 yards downfield compared to 8.3 yards downfield for Shepard so you'd expect a slightly lower catch%. All things considered, Slayton would be a solid #2 WR if he just got back to his rookie numbers with 57% catch% (on average target of 14.1 yards).
That said, I do think Golladay becomes the primary deep target, which reduces the targets for Slayton. That said, his #s in his 2019 pro bowl season were 56% catch% and 14.6 adot (ave depth of tgt). Pretty similar to Slayton's, albeit he was arguably the primary target for Detroit in 2019.
Or maybe he learns how to catch and stays healthy and he has a 1k yard season. Who knows.
I think if someone offered a 2nd for Engram, he'd be gone. A 3rd next year is probably a toss up in terms of what they'd want.
Agreed. Though I can still see him "start" opposite Golladay, especially early in the season to ease Toney's into things. Having 2 downfield threats on the field with Golladay/Slayton though could space things out a bit and give Barkley a little extra room.
Shepard's great at creating separation, but 1) Ds will be happy giving up 6-8 yard catches and forcing the Giants to prove they can sustain long drives and 2) dropping a S down to stop SB also clogs the middle and the passing lanes for SS.
I can buy that it was an issue that held him back from getting on the field in prior seasons because why else would a coach not play a player as talented as he is?
But watching the clips of all his targets over the course of full games this past year I just haven't seen any plays where he looks like Rueben Randle or Evan Engram hanging his QB out to dry with a miscommunication or sloppily letting a defender cut off his route. And if the stats are accurate it's because he caught almost every ball that was thrown his direction.
He just hasn't played a lot, either. He gets a lot of credit for recommitting himself to improving and fighting through injuries that crashed his college seasons, but he really had just the one fine year doing it. He's a bit raw. The physical gifts are encouraging for the future though. If 2020 was the first step, the Giants got a good WR just scratching the surface of his potential.
He just hasn't played a lot, either. He gets a lot of credit for recommitting himself to improving and fighting through injuries that crashed his college seasons, but he really had just the one fine year doing it. He's a bit raw. The physical gifts are encouraging for the future though. If 2020 was the first step, the Giants got a good WR just scratching the surface of his potential.
This pick reminds me a little bit of JPP in that he was nowhere on the radar at the beginning of his final season in college, then came out of nowhere to play at a really high level. Then when he tested like an athletic freak he was kind of mislabeled as a workout warrior when he was actually pretty dominant on the field - just in a really small sample size.
The biggest mark against Toney's resume, especially compared to someone like Devonta Smith who is the appropriate comparison here since that's who most expected, is the shorter track record. Smith was productive and durable from day 1. It's less of a negative relative to Waddle and I think it was thegratefulhead who pointed out that those of us who were excited about Waddle are probably more similarly excited about Toney than those who were more Smith or bust. Smith would have likely been the safest option of the 3 but if all 3 have big upsides I think it might have been even safer to secure the extra first next year.
looking back he was clearly under appreciated because Burrow and Chase were the headliners of that offense, but his final collegiate season was pretty insane. 91% catch rate on 122 targets (caught 111 balls with a 13.9 ypc).
15 games
111 receptions
1540 yards
18 tds
He basically had the type of season Devonta Smith probably would have had if Waddle hadn't gotten hurt and he'd had to share some of those targets.