|
|
Quote: |
Giants coach Joe Judge said most other NFL players would have missed more than only two games. “Look, Daniel is the last guy that’s going to use anything as an excuse,” Judge, who rarely talks about injuries, told The Michael Kay Show on Monday. What I would say about the injury last year is it was much more serious than maybe people thought on the outside. I would say probably 90 percent of players in the league who would have had that injury, including quarterbacks, would have been on IR for the remainder of the year. That’s just the reality of it. It was much more severe than maybe he allowed people to know or the information that was put out there, and we’re going to protect our players by not disclosing everything about their injuries to be honest with you. He fought through a lot of things. He earned a lot of people’s respect.” |
And yeah, DJ is a tough son of a bitch, and this makes me feel better about his performance last year. I hope he proves he's a franchise guy, but for some reason, my primary takeaway here is about Judge.
Judge is a fucking LEADER. So happy he's our coach. He has that innate understanding of when to hold people accountable, and when to stick up for his guys
Offensive Line ( and it has been very "offensive") and on the receiving corps (ps silent).
Give the guy a chance to prove himself under normal conditions and with a decent OL and good receivers.
As for Joe Judge, I think he may make it. Time will tell.
Offensive Line ( and it has been very "offensive") and on the receiving corps (ps silent).
Give the guy a chance to prove himself under normal conditions and with a decent OL and good receivers.
As for Joe Judge, I think he may make it. Time will tell.
It's not ignoring, it's that we believe a QB can be evaluated without perfect conditions.
On topic: on one hand DJ is certainly one tough SOB, however if you want DJ to be the QB for the next 10 years I'd find this information scary. The last thing you should want is your QB pushing through the kind of injury that could lead to worse injuries.
As Aaron Judge said it's better to miss 1 game than to miss 1 month..
This. In a way, Hassan Reddick's sack bonanza (and Andrew Thomas' terrible stats as a result) really need an asterisk because Jones was a sitting duck back there. He couldn't/wouldn't move & had no chance. Giants should have never tried to even play him in that game.
Powerful remarks from Judge. Several posters will be noticeably absent from this thread.
Offensive Line ( and it has been very "offensive") and on the receiving corps (ps silent).
Give the guy a chance to prove himself under normal conditions and with a decent OL and good receivers.
As for Joe Judge, I think he may make it. Time will tell.
Have a feeling a large number of those guys are the ones who never liked the pick in the first place and are still thinking about Josh Allen and what could have been. Subset of those guys could be those still mad at Gettleman choosing Barkley #2 overall, instead of choosing Eli’s successor. Might be wrong about that, but I’m guessing that’s where the some of that sentiment originates.
We had people pointing out the 12 sacks in two games and just completely gloss over his injuries. Ridiculous, it’s the type of crap you hear on ESPN so they can argue, not fans of the team looking at things objectively and with reason.
But that doesn’t mean
He will automatically be a good QB.
Quote:
towards the end of that Cardinals game. Glad he’s our QB. Dude is one tough son of a bitch, Here’s to a fully healthy season in 2021
This. In a way, Hassan Reddick's sack bonanza (and Andrew Thomas' terrible stats as a result) really need an asterisk because Jones was a sitting duck back there. He couldn't/wouldn't move & had no chance. Giants should have never tried to even play him in that game.
Anyone with two eyes could come to that conclusion, but people see what they want to see I guess.
Powerful remarks from Judge. Several posters will be noticeably absent from this thread.
Why do you think that? Which posters?
I really hope Jones puts it all together. He’s very easy to root for.
Fuck yeah. That’s the shit that doesn’t show up on the stat sheet.
GT vs. ryanmkeane, round 67589597.
When things break down around you, do you panic or do you naturally make the right decision. Nobody's perfect, but some guys are clutch and some aren't.
Hoping he breaks out this year, but trying to stay realistic.
Self awareness buddy
Cool. So you monitor Daniel Jones threads. Also, I didn't specifically have you in mind but the fact this thread is an hour old and has like 20 replies proves my point. Can you imagine if Judge said something to the opposite effect? Like if he felt Jones sat out injuries that were less severe? This thread would be a party by now.
1. He is a hard worker
2. He’s got guts
Hope his hard work pays off for him, the team, and us.
Lotta of quarterbacks are tough...you kind of have to be to make it to the NFL. Dave Brown was tough too.
or what?
I think Jones had a pretty poor year even throwing out the BAL/AZ games. I'd rather hear about what Jones does well on the field in terms of processing/throws than toughness and respect.
or what?
I hope so. I think Judge was talking about his early return from the hammy.
Its incredible....the self proclaimed oracle of BBI has spoken....again....about the same opinion everybody know he has.
I think us getting a second 1st next year is hedging our bets about DJ long term going forward. Sam Howell anybody?
I think us getting a second 1st next year is hedging our bets about DJ long term going forward. Sam Howell anybody?
Actions speak louder than words, definitely.
1. He is a hard worker
2. He’s got guts
Hope his hard work pays off for him, the team, and us.
3. Injury Prone
I think us getting a second 1st next year is hedging our bets about DJ long term going forward. Sam Howell anybody?
I dunno, as of last week I remember reading a Terps conspiracy that Judge secretly doesn't like Jones and wants to be rid of him. I would say Judge has a weird way of of trying to hid his true feelings.
Quote:
But it’s interesting to hear Judge confirm it. We know two things about Jones for certain at this point, indisputably:
1. He is a hard worker
2. He’s got guts
Hope his hard work pays off for him, the team, and us.
3. Injury Prone
Cool.
Judge didn’t have to say any of that.
Judge didn’t have to say any of that.
He’s been in the league two years and got hurt both years. It’s a factual statement until he proves me wrong and stays healthy. Has nothing to do with “rooting against him.”
What does that matter?
Quote:
?
What does that matter?
Well it matters because I want to know who to talk to on here and who to ignore. I appreciate what Jones brings to the table, his attitude, and his work ethic. I’m rooting for him and if you and others are not, then okay. If Jones is good the Giants are good and I appreciate his attitude. He’s doing the work and you’re not so I’m going to root for him.
If you’re rooting against Jones, you’re rooting against the Giants. Point blank.
If this team is as talented as the organization is says it is, then they shouldn’t have any problem winning the division this year. Time for results.
I want the Giants to find the path to winning football. We all do. It doesn't have to be with any specific player on the roster, and it doesn't make anyone a better fan if they root for Jones to be the QB.
We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.
That said, I had to laugh when GT said he would have drafted Herbert last year @ 4 after DJ's rookie season. That was LOL to me. And again, I respect GT opinions but I thought he was trolling @ that point.
Somehow simultaneously Judge is responsible for the turnaround in personnel decisions both in FA and the draft, but yet he doesn't get the QB he wants without having to give up any capital (and would have fetched at least a couple 2nds for DJ considering what Darnold just got). You don't think Bruce Arians would have taken that offer? He didn't do that because he saw exactly what I saw last year. A progressing QB, that worked on his issues over the summer, started slow fixing them, and progressively got better until his injuries derailed him.
If this team is as talented as the organization is says it is, then they shouldn’t have any problem winning the division this year. Time for results.
We know what you want. You think it’s not clear? This thread is about a kid stepping into a bigass situation and toughing it out to try and earn the respect of his teammates, coaches, and fans.
Quote:
And you choose this one? Fuck off.
We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.
Thomas' game improved considerably as the season progressed.
Do you remember watching Simms play his first I don’t know…7 seasons?
Quote:
And you choose this one? Fuck off.
We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.
I never questioned Thomas last year. Did you?
If this team is as talented as the organization is says it is, then they shouldn’t have any problem winning the division this year. Time for results.
They honestly shouldn't considering how the Boys bounce back. This is where the rubber meets the road and what many of us are trying to say. Some of us are optimistic and some aren't. We'll find out by January of next year.
Quote:
And you choose this one? Fuck off.
We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.
👆
Just an attention whore trying to carve out some space for himself now that even those of us who have been quick to criticize DG are feeling good about the draft.
That said, I had to laugh when GT said he would have drafted Herbert last year @ 4 after DJ's rookie season. That was LOL to me. And again, I respect GT opinions but I thought he was trolling @ that point.
Seriously? If given a mulligan you wouldn't draft Herbert? The Giants would - I'd bet a lot on that.
However, availability matters. Eli gets tremendous credit for being available, which he should. On the flip side, I worry about Jones and availability. He’s missed 4 games due to injury in his career in two seasons.
With that said, he’s very easy to root for.
Quote:
In comment 15252272 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
And you choose this one? Fuck off.
We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.
👆
Just an attention whore trying to carve out some space for himself now that even those of us who have been quick to criticize DG are feeling good about the draft.
You’re angry at the world. I’m sorry for your situation, truly, so I’ll decline a response.
Out.
Out.
Seems like you have.
Quote:
So many of BBI posters try to ignore the teams problems on
Offensive Line ( and it has been very "offensive") and on the receiving corps (ps silent).
Give the guy a chance to prove himself under normal conditions and with a decent OL and good receivers.
As for Joe Judge, I think he may make it. Time will tell.
It's not ignoring, it's that we believe a QB can be evaluated without perfect conditions.
On topic: on one hand DJ is certainly one tough SOB, however if you want DJ to be the QB for the next 10 years I'd find this information scary. The last thing you should want is your QB pushing through the kind of injury that could lead to worse injuries.
As Aaron Judge said it's better to miss 1 game than to miss 1 month..
"In Ronnie Barnes we trust". I don't believe the medical staff would have cleared him to play if serious damage was possible. Barnes' future is not as tied to won/loss as JJ and DG.
+1
It really is that simple.
Quote:
In comment 15252272 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
And you choose this one? Fuck off.
We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.
👆
Just an attention whore trying to carve out some space for himself now that even those of us who have been quick to criticize DG are feeling good about the draft.
Attention whore? Why don’t you give the board another lecture about how Omameh and Toilolo are going to ruin the Giants salary cap?
There are probably Eagles fans linking to this thread and laughing at how stupid Giants fans are. I think most Giants fans are smart fans, but there is a huge concentration of stupid on this thread.
Fans are frustrated with Jones because of his production, not because they hate him. If you don’t understand that you are an imbecile.
Haha, my bad Gatorade!
Quote:
And you choose this one? Fuck off.
We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.
WillVAB.... this is a serious take? Maybe there is a connection between a player underperforming and fighting an injury that was worse than what everyone thought at the time.
Maybe even the BEST players who have serious injuries underperform because... they’re legitimately injured.....
You make it seems like Judge just made this comment up to cover for Jones. Are you really that cynical? Unreal.
I would have if I were them.
The Cardinals did this a couple years ago. It's not that outlandish.
But I'm saying with hindsight - the Giants would absolutely take Herbert now.
Quote:
In comment 15252182 TLong said:
Quote:
So many of BBI posters try to ignore the teams problems on
Offensive Line ( and it has been very "offensive") and on the receiving corps (ps silent).
Give the guy a chance to prove himself under normal conditions and with a decent OL and good receivers.
As for Joe Judge, I think he may make it. Time will tell.
It's not ignoring, it's that we believe a QB can be evaluated without perfect conditions.
On topic: on one hand DJ is certainly one tough SOB, however if you want DJ to be the QB for the next 10 years I'd find this information scary. The last thing you should want is your QB pushing through the kind of injury that could lead to worse injuries.
As Aaron Judge said it's better to miss 1 game than to miss 1 month..
"In Ronnie Barnes we trust". I don't believe the medical staff would have cleared him to play if serious damage was possible. Barnes' future is not as tied to won/loss as JJ and DG.
Right because Joe Judge would flat out make up a lie? But rather you “don’t believe” based off of what insight/information? Or you’re just making up a baseless hot take.
Quote:
I think GT wants Jones to succeed, but doesn't think he will. That's a fair take that I don't necessarily disagree with. I think this fall is make or break for Jones.
That said, I had to laugh when GT said he would have drafted Herbert last year @ 4 after DJ's rookie season. That was LOL to me. And again, I respect GT opinions but I thought he was trolling @ that point.
Seriously? If given a mulligan you wouldn't draft Herbert? The Giants would - I'd bet a lot on that.
I would. I would swap Jones for Herbert right now and I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over it. I think Herbert is the better QB.
But I also have come to realize that the Giants aren't going to swap QBs on my whim, so my only choice would be to swap QBs for myself, and that means swapping allegiance to a different team. I don't want to do that.
Will I stop criticizing this front office? Absolutely not. I'm still me, and I'm not going to pretend to be anyone else. Will I never wonder how things would turn out with another player instead of the one we drafted/signed/etc.? Also, no. That's boring to me, and only makes sense if you're going to blindly bless every move that the FO makes.
But to hang onto guys that get drafted a year after the one we took? When our FO is clearly handcuffing themselves to that guy? I guess I'm kind of getting over that version of the "what if" game.
And I know that some fans who like to defend the FO's moves will often ask what someone would have done instead, and I guess that's a fair question, and I'll always try to have an answer for it. But I don't think it makes much sense to get locked in on the players we could have had because that just feels like a slippery slope: when we traded for Eli, I wondered how much stronger the roster would have been if we had acquired assets with Roethlisberger instead of trading them away for Eli. And then a year later, if we hadn't taken Eli, we could have taken Rodgers. But do we win the two SBs we won with either of those guys? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe more. Maybe less. Maybe none.
I'm just going to stay centered on the guys that the Giants do acquire. I won't like them all. I won't agree with every signing or every draft pick or every contract structure or whatever. But I feel like the "what if" game is an endless cycle and it's always one or two steps away from reality.
If we take Josh Allen and then take the other Josh Allen in the following year, where does our draft pick land last year? And who do we take? And how does he play? And how does that impact our W/L record? And then where does our draft pick land this year? And what happens from that slot? Do we end up with two firsts for next year? Do we have the same draft class that we wound up with? Do those better picks from a couple of years ago save Shurmur's job and he's just good enough to stay in his role but still not good enough for us to win another Lombardi?
This is not a declaration that I'm done complaining about what this team does, but it is an admission that I don't have the ability to map out an alternate course for them over time. I'll continue to consider each move as it happens (sorry, BBI!), but I'm also going to try to do a better job of accepting this team as it is along the way.
No, I wasn't.
Quote:
GT, April 2020...after Jones rookie season/Herbert only at Oregon...no one running any team is taking Herbert. Jones showed a lot his rookie season. By that reasoning, why didn't 'Fins take a QB @ 6? Jones was better than Tua their rookie years.
I would have if I were them.
The Cardinals did this a couple years ago. It's not that outlandish.
But I'm saying with hindsight - the Giants would absolutely take Herbert now.
With hindsight we would have taken Josh Allen, Herbert and many other QB’s over Jones - and I am a Jones fan. But who TF cares about hindsight? No one truly knows how a player will develop and turn out. Hindsight is the most useless concept in professional sports why even waste time thinking about it?
Probably the same reason you come on every thread and gush over Jones. You are both desperately seeking to be proven right. You just cancel each other out by screaming the loudest.
Everybody on this board knows what both of you will say on every Jones thread ever.
Oh come on, Chris684s post was a thinly veiled jab at GT before he had posted in this thread. GT was practically summoned but "wHy dO yOu PoSt?"
Oh come on, Chris684s post was a thinly veiled jab at GT before he had posted in this thread. GT was practically summoned but "wHy dO yOu PoSt?"
Quote:
In comment 15252272 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
And you choose this one? Fuck off.
We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.
WillVAB.... this is a serious take? Maybe there is a connection between a player underperforming and fighting an injury that was worse than what everyone thought at the time.
Maybe even the BEST players who have serious injuries underperform because... they’re legitimately injured.....
You make it seems like Judge just made this comment up to cover for Jones. Are you really that cynical? Unreal.
Every year we hear about underperforming Giants playing through injuries after the season. Every year.
Look, I’m completely neutral on Jones right now. He’s shown he can do some things really well and he’s exhibited some major flaws. We’ll see. I want him to succeed because if he succeeds then the Giants succeed. It’s that simple.
That doesn’t mean every fan should bow down and kiss his ass every time Gettleman or Judge gives the media a sound bite.
You know what I like more than a tough QB who tries to play through injuries? A smart QB who knows how to protect himself and avoid injuries so he can play a full season.
Based on what he looked like and are other option, it's a rock and a hard place.
He got cleared by the medical team in the NFL, you know what that means right? You can't be that naive, unless he was at a reasonable risk of making the injury worse with long term repercussions, they clear you. He clearly was very ineffective because of the injury. I've seen Stafford go out there and catch shit for the same thing.
Some guys are just tougher than others. DJ went out there with a broken collarbone at Duke earlier than anyone expected with normal prognosis. If you suddenly take the mobility away from a young QB and expect him to perform like a seasoned pocket passer with a line that sucks at pass blocking and no skill players, not sure what to tell you.
Quote:
In comment 15252277 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 15252272 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
And you choose this one? Fuck off.
We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.
WillVAB.... this is a serious take? Maybe there is a connection between a player underperforming and fighting an injury that was worse than what everyone thought at the time.
Maybe even the BEST players who have serious injuries underperform because... they’re legitimately injured.....
You make it seems like Judge just made this comment up to cover for Jones. Are you really that cynical? Unreal.
Every year we hear about underperforming Giants playing through injuries after the season. Every year.
Look, I’m completely neutral on Jones right now. He’s shown he can do some things really well and he’s exhibited some major flaws. We’ll see. I want him to succeed because if he succeeds then the Giants succeed. It’s that simple.
That doesn’t mean every fan should bow down and kiss his ass every time Gettleman or Judge gives the media a sound bite.
You know what I like more than a tough QB who tries to play through injuries? A smart QB who knows how to protect himself and avoid injuries so he can play a full season.
I hear ya, but my point has nothing to do with Jones. I’m not trying to defend Jones here.
What I don’t understand is why you think this is fabricated. Don’t you think every NFL team has articles written about players underperforming due to injury? It is not specific to NYG.
And nor should it be. The point I am making is that players DO underperform due to injury, especially if it is severe. That’s probably the single largest reason WHY they underperformed. I just don’t know how you cant see this logic.
Not everything you read is fabricated and designed to cover up a bad draft pick or shitty FA signing. Why can’t you see that?
And that’s what this year is.
A QB who tries to play through injuries on a team that isn't in the bottom 20% at ALL OF WR, RB, TE, and OL.
Unlike two people here on either end, I DON'T KNOW how good Jones can be. I DO know that some of his flaws--but not how many-- related to the fact that he was trying to do too much, playing on one of the very worst offenses in the league, and the worst offense the Giants have had in decades.
Think there was a worse one, at all 4 squads combined, than the Giants had early last season? Please name it.
Jones is our guy and I will root for him and believe in him until I have reason not to. Some of you are just jumping at the chance to be right in your pessimism and jump on any opportunity to insult our young QB. To those of you who do this constantly, FUCK YOU. You are a bunch of low life pieces of shit. Go root for another team. Go root for the fucking Chargers you turd burglurs. Herbert was known to be lukewarm on football; ready to walk away at any moment. He was chosen #6 in his draft just like Jones. I would argue that Jones had a better rookie year throwing the ball. I can't wait to see DJ with an actual supporting cast.
Jones is our guy and I will root for him and believe in him until I have reason not to. Some of you are just jumping at the chance to be right in your pessimism and jump on any opportunity to insult our young QB. To those of you who do this constantly, FUCK YOU. You are a bunch of low life pieces of shit. Go root for another team. Go root for the fucking Chargers you turd burglurs. Herbert was known to be lukewarm on football; ready to walk away at any moment. He was chosen #6 in his draft just like Jones. I would argue that Jones had a better rookie year throwing the ball. I can't wait to see DJ with an actual supporting cast.
Fuck you
The thing is, speaking for myself, I’m completely open to other viewpoints and openly acknowledge all of Jones’ faults and validate those that are concerned.
It really shouldn't be this hard to say you're rooting for the kid, even if only because his doing well drastically affects the chances that we get winning football. And if he does well, the team can keep focusing on improving other areas rather than pouring more resources into the QB position.
When you say you don't care who the quarterback is, it comes off (to me, anyway) that you do care who it is (or isn't). It seems to me that anyone who really wants winning football should be rooting for everyone currently on the team. But maybe that's just me.
Quote:
Because I'm fairly certain he got cleared to play by the medical team. No?
Based on what he looked like and are other option, it's a rock and a hard place.
He got cleared by the medical team in the NFL, you know what that means right? You can't be that naive, unless he was at a reasonable risk of making the injury worse with long term repercussions, they clear you. He clearly was very ineffective because of the injury. I've seen Stafford go out there and catch shit for the same thing.
Some guys are just tougher than others. DJ went out there with a broken collarbone at Duke earlier than anyone expected with normal prognosis. If you suddenly take the mobility away from a young QB and expect him to perform like a seasoned pocket passer with a line that sucks at pass blocking and no skill players, not sure what to tell you.
Then Jones shouldn't have been out there playing if he didn't have the faculties to perform effectively. I've seen other QBs who were hurt but still performed effectively - Favre, Rodgers, Roethliserger, Romo, etc. So someone made a mistake allowing DJ to play. Tough means NOTHING if you are hurting the team. It doesn't get you extra points on the scoreboard.
Despite the horrendous division, we were in the hunt for a division title. So we very likely played the wrong guy for a game or two...
GT vs. ryanmkeane, round 67589597.
With apologies to Ryan, it's really not much of a fight.
Then Jones shouldn't have been out there playing if he didn't have the faculties to perform effectively. I've seen other QBs who were hurt but still performed effectively - Favre, Rodgers, Roethliserger, Romo, etc. So someone made a mistake allowing DJ to play. Tough means NOTHING if you are hurting the team. It doesn't get you extra points on the scoreboard.
Despite the horrendous division, we were in the hunt for a division title. So we very likely played the wrong guy for a game or two...
He shouldn't have, but that's a coaches decision when the QB wants to go. It was on Judge. In fact if you remember McCoy was warming up until DJ led a long TD drive.
I agree, as soon as he was out there, as shitty as McCoy is, he would have been a better option and we could have had a healthier DJ down the stretch. I'm sure that game set him back. One of the few mistakes I think Judge made last year.
Quote:
I agree w/ GT that Judge complimenting DJ is sorta 'Well yeah...what you expect him to say?'
I think us getting a second 1st next year is hedging our bets about DJ long term going forward. Sam Howell anybody?
I dunno, as of last week I remember reading a Terps conspiracy that Judge secretly doesn't like Jones and wants to be rid of him. I would say Judge has a weird way of of trying to hid his true feelings.
He absolutely has said that numerous times. He keeps ignoring the number of times Judge proactively says good things about Judge to loudly proclaim hat he likely wants to "wait out Gettleman" and get rid of Jones.
He's a fucking clown.
You’re right. Terps started this shit. He hadn’t posted on the thread at all but was still called out by another poster, but fuck him, it’s his fault. Brilliant analysis of the situation.
Quote:
In comment 15252277 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 15252272 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
And you choose this one? Fuck off.
We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.
👆
Just an attention whore trying to carve out some space for himself now that even those of us who have been quick to criticize DG are feeling good about the draft.
Attention whore? Why don’t you give the board another lecture about how Omameh and Toilolo are going to ruin the Giants salary cap?
Omameh was a horrific signing - there's no denying that and it DID have negative cap ramifications that lasted for multiple years, including restructuring Rhett Ellison, which resulted in carrying dead money beyond Ellison's retirement, and also restructuring Nate Solder, which presented a less favorable negotiation with Solder this offseason when the Giants were negotiating against Solder's dead money value. Both of those outcomes are undeniable. The net impact of the downstream implications of the Omameh signing is something that is worth discussing - fortunately we find ourselves here on a message board to do exactly that. And even more fortunately, the Giants navigated through that bad signing eventually. But it was still a terrible contract.
Toilolo was a poor signing last year - he was paid too much to play too little and his snap count is clear evidence that he didn't quite fit what the team wanted to do offensively. He seemed like an easy cut this offseason, and - despite the incredibly creative and successful job that DG/KA/KOB did this offseason - I'm still not sure why they didn't just release him outright, especially since Rudolph was one of their primary FA targets. They were in prime position to narrow their TE group to Evan Engram, Kaden Smith, and Kyle Rudolph, leaving open a slot for a cheap 4th TE who might contribute on specials. Keeping Toilolo and guaranteeing any of his money instead of releasing him entirely for free was an error, IMO.
I happen to disagree with this move. And I happen to also believe that there's a good chance that it will create unnecessary dead money on the 2022 cap because of the guaranteed money that they gave Toilolo in the restructure. That dead money won't be especially significant in and of itself, but it will still be emblematic of a front office approach that does still have a blind spot when it comes to those small details and does still treat dead money like it's just the cost of doing business (we still see early outs baked into this year's FA contracts, which which will invite dead money and eliminate comp draft picks if those contracts do not reach maturity), rather than protecting against that liability.
This year, part of the reason for assuming dead money risk was an effort to stretch every dollar to maximize the free agent class - it's hard to argue with that approach if it pays dividends in the standings. But if it doesn't? Then last year's tactic of utilizing roster bonuses instead of signing bonuses to reduce dead money risk will prove to have been the more successful approach.
Still, I don't think I need to apologize to anyone or the board in general for understanding the mechanisms of the cap rather than just pointing to future years and claiming that there was no rain in the forecast. The Giants absolutely borrowed against those future years' flexibility this offseason, and that's not something they had done quite so aggressively before. I'm excited about the players they brought in and the way that they commanded free agency this year, and I also recognize that they assumed a fair bit of risk in the process.
Having said all that, I don't think this has to be binary. I think it's perfectly fair to support the team's overall direction and still be a vocal critic of individual moves as they occur. I know that doesn't necessarily align with the way that many of us view BBI's aisle, but I'm going to give it a shot.
I still maintain that there are moments where even a fan can identify efficiencies that a front office doesn't utilize. I don't know whether that's due to so many moving parts or favors to agents or - as I'm realizing this offseason - the possibility that contracts can be structured in such a fashion as to effectively represent cap room carryover for a fringe player in order to free up space at a later date, as needed (note that I still don't love this approach, as with Toilolo, because cap room can be carried over free and clear of dead money for one year).
Ultimately, here's my take: I realized a while ago that our front office doesn't know everything and they're still figuring it out as they go - it has bothered me tremendously to watch them make mistakes while the team continued to struggle for years now. But I'll also admit that my ego got in the way of my realizing that I also don't know everything and I'm figuring it out as THEY go.
They're doing much better this year, but they're far from a finished product. And I sure as hell don't know everything I'd need to know in order to articulate with certainty every single thing that I wish they'd do instead. I'm going to keep on describing what I think they could have done, and I'm also going to keep on being excited about things that make me happy as a Giants fan.
Care to counter?
Quote:
In comment 15252328 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Because I'm fairly certain he got cleared to play by the medical team. No?
Based on what he looked like and are other option, it's a rock and a hard place.
He got cleared by the medical team in the NFL, you know what that means right? You can't be that naive, unless he was at a reasonable risk of making the injury worse with long term repercussions, they clear you. He clearly was very ineffective because of the injury. I've seen Stafford go out there and catch shit for the same thing.
Some guys are just tougher than others. DJ went out there with a broken collarbone at Duke earlier than anyone expected with normal prognosis. If you suddenly take the mobility away from a young QB and expect him to perform like a seasoned pocket passer with a line that sucks at pass blocking and no skill players, not sure what to tell you.
Then Jones shouldn't have been out there playing if he didn't have the faculties to perform effectively. I've seen other QBs who were hurt but still performed effectively - Favre, Rodgers, Roethliserger, Romo, etc. So someone made a mistake allowing DJ to play. Tough means NOTHING if you are hurting the team. It doesn't get you extra points on the scoreboard.
Despite the horrendous division, we were in the hunt for a division title. So we very likely played the wrong guy for a game or two...
And neither should Eli have been out there against the Packers in Week 2 2007.. He threw like a girl, according to Strahan. And he couldn’t throw it more than 5-10 yards.
And they lost. Blown out. But he earned the team’s respect that day. Including the cynical Strahan. And then Strahan mentioned him in his HOF speech despite only playing with him 3 years.
It matters.
I happen to disagree with this move. And I happen to also believe that there's a good chance that it will create unnecessary dead money on the 2022 cap because of the guaranteed money that they gave Toilolo in the restructure. That dead money won't be especially significant in and of itself, but it will still be emblematic of a front office approach that does still have a blind spot when it comes to those small details and does still treat dead money like it's just the cost of doing business (we still see early outs baked into this year's FA contracts, which which will invite dead money and eliminate comp draft picks if those contracts do not reach maturity), rather than protecting against that liability.
This year, part of the reason for assuming dead money risk was an effort to stretch every dollar to maximize the free agent class - it's hard to argue with that approach if it pays dividends in the standings. But if it doesn't? Then last year's tactic of utilizing roster bonuses instead of signing bonuses to reduce dead money risk will prove to have been the more successful approach.
Still, I don't think I need to apologize to anyone or the board in general for understanding the mechanisms of the cap rather than just pointing to future years and claiming that there was no rain in the forecast. The Giants absolutely borrowed against those future years' flexibility this offseason, and that's not something they had done quite so aggressively before. I'm excited about the players they brought in and the way that they commanded free agency this year, and I also recognize that they assumed a fair bit of risk in the process.
Having said all that, I don't think this has to be binary. I think it's perfectly fair to support the team's overall direction and still be a vocal critic of individual moves as they occur. I know that doesn't necessarily align with the way that many of us view BBI's aisle, but I'm going to give it a shot.
I still maintain that there are moments where even a fan can identify efficiencies that a front office doesn't utilize. I don't know whether that's due to so many moving parts or favors to agents or - as I'm realizing this offseason - the possibility that contracts can be structured in such a fashion as to effectively represent cap room carryover for a fringe player in order to free up space at a later date, as needed (note that I still don't love this approach, as with Toilolo, because cap room can be carried over free and clear of dead money for one year).
There is no dead money for Toilolo next year if the Giants cut him this season. Even after the pay cut they would save $1 million in cap room this year by releasing him. This assumption that he is a roster lock this season is a bit puzzling to me. IMO I think that the Giants will carry 3 TE's, unless Rudolph misses the beginning of the season, with Kaden Smith as the 3rd TE.
I have said this is the year for Jones. Improve or we look at another solution. Be better, especially that we have a lot more weapons and the OL should hopefully improve at a nice level.
I'm not really sure when BBI changed it's opinion on the development of franchise quarterbacks, possibly a few years ago, but basically now, you need to be very good immediately or you're a bust. Perhaps it is the age we live in now. Look around the league. The quarterbacks who have been in this league for 10-12 years are struggled at first. And guess why? Because you are young and likely on a team that isn't good at first. That's the way football works.
I mean, we just had Terps say that Jones "isn't Phil Simms" - and the irony of that statement is that Jones looks a lot more impressive than Simms did, and it isn't really close.
BBI also has this thing now with "30 TD" - I imagine this was started by Terps, in fact I think it was. The irony of that statement is that plenty of QBs that Terps and others would want instead of Daniel Jones have been in the league longer than him, and usually end up in the mid or high 20s in TDs.
There is absolutely zero nuance or room for discussion on this board on how the SITUATION matters when it comes to a franchise QB. Gee - what happened when Eli Manning's OL started to gel finally and we got him some weapons? We went on a really nice run from 2007-2011.
I am in full support of giving Jones this season to prove himself now that he has finally has legit weapons to throw to. If he shits the bed this season the Giants have ample draft capital to move up if needed to get their next QB. If Jones steps up then the Giants are in great shape moving forward.
Yeah, Manning was a clear cut #1 pick. A lot more pure "talent" than Jones. But, if you ask me my actual opinion, Jones has looked like a better NFL quarterback than Eli Manning did through 2 seasons.
And no, I'm not saying Jones is going to become Eli, be as good as Eli at his peak, or two super bowls and MVPs. I'm just saying, he's further along.
Then Jones shouldn't have been out there playing if he didn't have the faculties to perform effectively. I've seen other QBs who were hurt but still performed effectively - Favre, Rodgers, Roethliserger, Romo, etc. So someone made a mistake allowing DJ to play. Tough means NOTHING if you are hurting the team. It doesn't get you extra points on the scoreboard.
Despite the horrendous division, we were in the hunt for a division title. So we very likely played the wrong guy for a game or two...
And neither should Eli have been out there against the Packers in Week 2 2007.. He threw like a girl, according to Strahan. And he couldn’t throw it more than 5-10 yards.
And they lost. Blown out. But he earned the team’s respect that day. Including the cynical Strahan. And then Strahan mentioned him in his HOF speech despite only playing with him 3 years.
It matters.
Not buying the romance in just being tough. You need to perform and win as well, especially if you are the QB. Otherwise, you are hurting the team.
Quote:
I happen to disagree with this move. And I happen to also believe that there's a good chance that it will create unnecessary dead money on the 2022 cap because of the guaranteed money that they gave Toilolo in the restructure. That dead money won't be especially significant in and of itself, but it will still be emblematic of a front office approach that does still have a blind spot when it comes to those small details and does still treat dead money like it's just the cost of doing business (we still see early outs baked into this year's FA contracts, which which will invite dead money and eliminate comp draft picks if those contracts do not reach maturity), rather than protecting against that liability.
This year, part of the reason for assuming dead money risk was an effort to stretch every dollar to maximize the free agent class - it's hard to argue with that approach if it pays dividends in the standings. But if it doesn't? Then last year's tactic of utilizing roster bonuses instead of signing bonuses to reduce dead money risk will prove to have been the more successful approach.
Still, I don't think I need to apologize to anyone or the board in general for understanding the mechanisms of the cap rather than just pointing to future years and claiming that there was no rain in the forecast. The Giants absolutely borrowed against those future years' flexibility this offseason, and that's not something they had done quite so aggressively before. I'm excited about the players they brought in and the way that they commanded free agency this year, and I also recognize that they assumed a fair bit of risk in the process.
Having said all that, I don't think this has to be binary. I think it's perfectly fair to support the team's overall direction and still be a vocal critic of individual moves as they occur. I know that doesn't necessarily align with the way that many of us view BBI's aisle, but I'm going to give it a shot.
I still maintain that there are moments where even a fan can identify efficiencies that a front office doesn't utilize. I don't know whether that's due to so many moving parts or favors to agents or - as I'm realizing this offseason - the possibility that contracts can be structured in such a fashion as to effectively represent cap room carryover for a fringe player in order to free up space at a later date, as needed (note that I still don't love this approach, as with Toilolo, because cap room can be carried over free and clear of dead money for one year).
There is no dead money for Toilolo next year if the Giants cut him this season. Even after the pay cut they would save $1 million in cap room this year by releasing him. This assumption that he is a roster lock this season is a bit puzzling to me. IMO I think that the Giants will carry 3 TE's, unless Rudolph misses the beginning of the season, with Kaden Smith as the 3rd TE.
Cutting Toilolo will carve into operating space for this season, which - as we saw with the dead money purge of 2019 - can often trigger restructures of other contracts in order to stay on track.
It's not just the direct dead money impact of each contract that needs to be considered. It can sometimes be the ripple effect of dead money that causes other moves (that also represent dead money impact themselves) that causes the damage. I realize that this can't always be avoided, and that it's easy for a fan to point out primary, secondary, and tertiary dead money liabilities, but I throw it out there as I see it because if I can identify it, then someone like Kevin Abrams - who many fans consider an astute cap manager - must be able to identify it as well.
As it relates to Toilolo: personally, I will very rarely be in favor of hanging onto vested veterans who will be 3rd or lower on the depth chart at any position. The marginal value of a veteran's contribution in such a minimal role is not worth the assumption of full-season guaranteed money simply for having them make the team. And gift-wrapping enough guaranteed money to a roster-bubble vested veteran that it becomes increasingly likely that they make the final cut is just openly inefficient, IMO.
Quote:
In comment 15252399 bw in dc said:
Then Jones shouldn't have been out there playing if he didn't have the faculties to perform effectively. I've seen other QBs who were hurt but still performed effectively - Favre, Rodgers, Roethliserger, Romo, etc. So someone made a mistake allowing DJ to play. Tough means NOTHING if you are hurting the team. It doesn't get you extra points on the scoreboard.
Despite the horrendous division, we were in the hunt for a division title. So we very likely played the wrong guy for a game or two...
And neither should Eli have been out there against the Packers in Week 2 2007.. He threw like a girl, according to Strahan. And he couldn’t throw it more than 5-10 yards.
And they lost. Blown out. But he earned the team’s respect that day. Including the cynical Strahan. And then Strahan mentioned him in his HOF speech despite only playing with him 3 years.
It matters.
Not buying the romance in just being tough. You need to perform and win as well, especially if you are the QB. Otherwise, you are hurting the team.
That wasn’t the point and you know it.
No shit. He was a 2nd year QB and made a lot of mistakes. Just like every quarterback to ever live save for a few of them.
I am in full support of giving Jones this season to prove himself now that he has finally has legit weapons to throw to. If he shits the bed this season the Giants have ample draft capital to move up if needed to get their next QB. If Jones steps up then the Giants are in great shape moving forward.
This is exactly the part I don't understand. It's like having blinders on. On one hand Eli earned it, but look at the Giant offense Eli's second year, 2005 and compare it to the 2020 Giants. Giants went out and added Plax, McKenzie, to a team with an all pro caliber runningback in Barber, an elite weapon at TE in Shockey, and Amani Toomer. Not saying that to discredit Eli, I'm a huge Eli fan, but from the vantage point of watching Eli grow as a player through the years, Giants offense was put in an impossible situation last year based on the state of the offensive line and skill group, that skill group required Barkley's presence, that is what it our offense was designed around. We traded Beckham, our last #1WR, replaced him with an aging Golden Tate and basically said this is going to be Barkley's team and these other pieces will serve to compliment him. That plan blew up in the Giants face last year, and they pivoted accordingly this offseason.
Man, that is one strong shot of hyperbole!
Jones's rookie season is a BBI myth.
Tough as he is, with all the hard, and all the desire, questions remain about his processing and decisions on the field. Want it bad and try hard and hard work from morning till night just aren’t enough. Sorry, it’s just the way it works. Gotta win. Gotta make big plays. Toughness in the NFL is table stakes. He’s got all the weapons and tools to succeed in the NFL. Let’s fucking go DJ8!
I think it's more a matter of a few posters who don't believe that Jones automatically qualifies as a "developmental quarterback."
Quote:
Herbert was known to be lukewarm on football; ready to walk away at any moment.
Man, that is one strong shot of hyperbole!
Nope. Go back a read if you are capable. Many thought that the kid just didn't care much for football. Many questioned his dedication to the game and his passion as a player. They thought he didn't care. Last year he showed otherwise.
Quote:
who are not willing to develop a quarterback.
I think it's more a matter of a few posters who don't believe that Jones automatically qualifies as a "developmental quarterback."
^^Most idiotic post of the day^^
Trading for Chicago's first rounder put that notion to bed. Either he becomes a productive quarterback for the first time in...ever...or it's good night the lights on the three year mistake.
Not buying the romance in just being tough. You need to perform and win as well, especially if you are the QB. Otherwise, you are hurting the team.
That wasn’t the point and you know it.
I understand your point, but I'm just not buying it.
In the national semis between Ohio State/Clemson, Fields took a brutal, cheap shot from LB Skalski. Skalski rightfully got tossed.
I remember thinking there wasn't any way Fields was going to finish the game. I thought he was so hurt he wouldn't be able to play the rest of the year.
But he dug deep, managed the agony, and threw three more TD passes against Clemson (he finished with six) to lead OSU to a dominant W. That's being tough and still being productive...
Quote:
In comment 15252465 bw in dc said:
Not buying the romance in just being tough. You need to perform and win as well, especially if you are the QB. Otherwise, you are hurting the team.
That wasn’t the point and you know it.
I understand your point, but I'm just not buying it.
In the national semis between Ohio State/Clemson, Fields took a brutal, cheap shot from LB Skalski. Skalski rightfully got tossed.
I remember thinking there wasn't any way Fields was going to finish the game. I thought he was so hurt he wouldn't be able to play the rest of the year.
But he dug deep, managed the agony, and threw three more TD passes against Clemson (he finished with six) to lead OSU to a dominant W. That's being tough and still being productive...
So go root for the Bears. You need a team that makes decisions you can get onboard with.
Quote:
In comment 15252454 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
who are not willing to develop a quarterback.
I think it's more a matter of a few posters who don't believe that Jones automatically qualifies as a "developmental quarterback."
^^Most idiotic post of the day^^
Don't be am ass. It's way too obtuse to label Jones' critics as people who just think a QB should immediately be stellar and never have to develop their skills.
I'd say they just don't think he'll put it together and be elite. It's a common tale that we've seen with dozens of QBs. Why should freaking Daniel Jones of all people be exempt from this concern?
Quote:
In comment 15252379 LeonBright45 said:
Quote:
Herbert was known to be lukewarm on football; ready to walk away at any moment.
Man, that is one strong shot of hyperbole!
Nope. Go back a read if you are capable. Many thought that the kid just didn't care much for football. Many questioned his dedication to the game and his passion as a player. They thought he didn't care. Last year he showed otherwise.
There is a vast chasm between some (not "many") wondering if he was dedicated to football, and it being KNOWN that he was lukewarm.
Some people have wondered if Lawrence is passionate about football, by the way. My guess is they are idiots who work for a potential doormat of a team.
The Giants looked pretty damn good vs. Seattle, then Jones came back and got absolutely demolished vs. the Cards. It was fish in barrel out there.
Love me some Judge, but yikes. If Jones was IR worthy, they got him beat like a bag out there. Maybe McCoy doesn’t get hit like a tee ball all game.
The Giants looked pretty damn good vs. Seattle, then Jones came back and got absolutely demolished vs. the Cards. It was fish in barrel out there.
Love me some Judge, but yikes. If Jones was IR worthy, they got him beat like a bag out there. Maybe McCoy doesn’t get hit like a tee ball all game.
Yeah, Judge nearly makes it sound like the team pulled a Shanahan/RG III.
PFF has been consistently anti Gettleman. Ripped the Barkley pick, crushed the Jones pick, referring to him as a 3rd round qb.
Never thought I’d see the day where PFF liked the Giants QB more than Giants fans did.
Yeah, Judge nearly makes it sound like the team pulled a Shanahan/RG III.
Against both Arizona and Baltimore, Jones was a piñata. The Giants grab one those games and they are in the tournament.
This is one of those things that seems like something good happened, then you give it any amount of thought and you realize something terribly stupid actually occurred.
I'll root for the Giants too - the difference is I don't make shit up to make them seem better than they are.
If Jones played for the Eagles everyone on this board would say he sucks, and be relieved that he is their problem. And that would be a fair take. But because he's here we've had to listen to months of bullshit about how his first two seasons have been something other than terrible...and if you disagree, it makes you a bad fan.
I see it differently. What kind of fan are you when you say things like "Jones is farther along in year 2 than Eli was"? I think that makes you delusional.
I'll be right there rooting for the Giants; I just won't be delusional as I do it.
If Eli Manning played for the Eagles for his first three years, we would have been laughing them out of the building every single game.
You realize that these arguments you create into a vacuum only are for Daniel Jones? And not for any other player in the history of the NFL?
Daniel Jones has been the quarterback for two years. You are the only person on this website who thinks that’s enough time. And to be frank - Joe Judge knows a lot more about football than you do about anything. As does Dave Gettleman, as does John Mara.
Why acknowledging that is sensibility offending, is so bizarre to me.
Why acknowledging that is sensibility offending, is so bizarre to me.
Because there are posters here who think they should be the GM of the team, that’s why
Why acknowledging that is sensibility offending, is so bizarre to me.
Because lots of people spent money on #8 jerseys.
But out of all the communications that I like from Judge, this one just portrays lack of good judgment. They may have likely lost with the backup QB too but they were never going to have a chance with DJ that day.
Hey, rookie HC’s make bad decisions too. And this was one of them...
If he plays well this year, it’ll be a huge leap. It’s not a foregone conclusion.
The days of Eli Manning being available are gone...
2020 - 3 starts with passer rating over league average
In 32 games since they drafted him with the 6th pick overall, the Giants have gotten 7 above average passing performances from Jones.
7/32 = 26.9% of Jones's starts have been above average
Quote:
If Jones delivers a big year, doesn’t turn the ball over a bunch, wins some big games, and the Giants win more games than they lose — it’ll be a huge accomplishment and much improved from his first two years.
Why acknowledging that is sensibility offending, is so bizarre to me.
Because there are posters here who think they should be the GM of the team, that’s why
No one thinks that. Do you always go right for the most absurd interpretation of a position you disagree with?
So we can't use passer rating, we can't use AY/A, we can't use overall W/L record...what can we use to ascertain how well a quarterback is playing? I know a lot of people point to Jones's 24 TD passes as a rookie...why can we use that but not the other stats that take everything else into account?
I mean, we just had Terps say that Jones "isn't Phil Simms" - and the irony of that statement is that Jones looks a lot more impressive than Simms did, and it isn't really close.
Jones looks a lot more impressive than many past QBs who are HOF. Compare his first two years' worth of starts to Joe Montana's. More impressive.
Of course, same could be said of many QBs who started with promise but also equal cause for concern, and never managed to develop their skills and/or diminish their warts enough. Josh Freeman comes to mind.
You act as though being skeptical of Jones' ability to become a consistently winning, elite QB is a slap in the face to the entire concept of QB development. It's not... it's simply considering that he may be among the many young QBs in history who just *don't* develop.
In this wave of red ink, Patrick Omameh’s accelerated dead money was a ripple, consuming 1.5% of the 2019 cap. His cap number the previous year was 1.4%, on a team that allocated nearly 25% to dead money. His cap impact was modestly consequential, but it was a VERY small part of the overall problem.
Omameh was a horrid signing because he stunk. The contract was the least of it
Quote:
In comment 15252538 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 15252454 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
who are not willing to develop a quarterback.
I think it's more a matter of a few posters who don't believe that Jones automatically qualifies as a "developmental quarterback."
^^Most idiotic post of the day^^
Don't be am ass. It's way too obtuse to label Jones' critics as people who just think a QB should immediately be stellar and never have to develop their skills.
I'd say they just don't think he'll put it together and be elite. It's a common tale that we've seen with dozens of QBs. Why should freaking Daniel Jones of all people be exempt from this concern?
I bet you believe every QB will never 'put it together and be elite" until the time actually comes and then you stand up on your chair and scream that you knew he could do it all along. It's truly despicable how some of you berate a young QB. Go root for another team if you see a QB that meets your standards and criteria. I won't miss having to read your bullshit opinions. The coaches and most of the fans are behind Daniel Jones. You miserable bastards should go find a new hobby or rededicate yourself to an old one that made you bitter in life.
Trading for Chicago's first rounder put that notion to bed. Either he becomes a productive quarterback for the first time in...ever...or it's good night the lights on the three year mistake.
At least some of us will enjoy him....
Just saying...~
There are other posters on this site that think Jones is garbage. Some of them do the same thing you do. And you all post so much, and quote each other so much, these threads are unreadable for anyone with a different view. I know this is “Both sides” in your lexicon, but if you can’t see that 80% of these threads are the same posters making the same point on every thread, I don’t know what to tell you.
You are not going to convince Terps that Jones is a good QB. He is not going to convince you Jones is a bust. Yet your back and forth is impossible to see past because you both seem to crave the other’s approval. It’s really fucking boring.
You and Terps are Fox Nexs and MSNBC. The two screaming extremes on the fringes. Unfortunately your ridiculous squabbles are destroying actual discussion for the rest of us.
I’ve said my peace and I am done with this shit. Jones is a third rail topic I no longer want to discuss on this board because intelligent conversation on the topic is dead here.
Quote:
Before this weekend I was worried he'd get both 2021 and 2022 to prove he's something other than what he's shown in five years of college and pro football.
Trading for Chicago's first rounder put that notion to bed. Either he becomes a productive quarterback for the first time in...ever...or it's good night the lights on the three year mistake.
At least some of us will enjoy him....
There's been next to nothing to enjoy to this point. And enjoying bad football doesn't make you a better fan...it's a weird thing to carry as a badge of honor.
Like with Daniel Jones himself, with this or any other team, we have Schrodinger's cat.
There are other posters on this site that think Jones is garbage. Some of them do the same thing you do. And you all post so much, and quote each other so much, these threads are unreadable for anyone with a different view. I know this is “Both sides” in your lexicon, but if you can’t see that 80% of these threads are the same posters making the same point on every thread, I don’t know what to tell you.
You are not going to convince Terps that Jones is a good QB. He is not going to convince you Jones is a bust. Yet your back and forth is impossible to see past because you both seem to crave the other’s approval. It’s really fucking boring.
You and Terps are Fox Nexs and MSNBC. The two screaming extremes on the fringes. Unfortunately your ridiculous squabbles are destroying actual discussion for the rest of us.
I’ve said my peace and I am done with this shit. Jones is a third rail topic I no longer want to discuss on this board because intelligent conversation on the topic is dead here.
Brilliant!
I think one of the first virtues that is generally sacrificed to make a point is compassion.
So, here's to us still being here in 2033 and Terps still hating on DJ! :)
I point out the complete and utter contradictory statements that Terps makes when it comes to Jones. He says things like “let’s go get Matt Stafford” or “Jones isn’t Phil Simms.”
He’s comparing apples to oranges, and seemingly doesn’t realize this.
You guys think I’m some homer loser who doesn’t criticize and doesn’t call a situation for what it is. I’ve said this a million fucking time dude: this is the year for Jones and this is the year for the team to show major improvement, and if they don’t, both him and DG are likely gone.
I don’t know how many times I have to say that to make you guys realize that I’m not some “other end of the spectrum” poster.
I’m a realist. I get the fact that it takes some time to develop a quarterback. I lived through Eli Manning and watched Phil Simms as a kid. Just because I want to give Jones another year to grow doesn’t make me a “everything is awesome!” Fan. It makes me a fan who likes where the team is going, likes Jones, thinks it’s going to work out, but also realizes that he likely has 1 more year to get it done.
All you guys are just saying things over and over again that aren’t accurate, and it’s really fucking annoying.
Third year in the league
Second year in the same system
Likely much improved surrounding talent
Changes to the fifth year option make it more onerous on teams. Previously it was guaranteed only in case of injury. Now, it is fully guaranteed. The amount is not cheap and a rookie QB and a vet backup combined will likely take up less cap room than the option. We have to decide on the option around the time of next year’s draft. If Jones doesn’t make substantial progress, I can’t see how you can risk that salary commitment. Bears declined it with Mitch Trubisky, so it would not be unheard of.
If good football is all there is to enjoy, why would anyone watch a team that loses? Why wouldn't people flock from team to team, cheering for KC one year, TB the next and so on?
There's more to root for than "good football". There's rooting for players. For coaches. For the team as a whole.
And frankly, if I get to a point where I detest something so much that I'm posting daily about how bad the team I'm rooting for is. That I tell people everyday how bad others are at doing their jobs. That I rant daily about mistakes in the past. I will cease to be a fan and no longer follow that team.
Quote:
What are some of the reasons this year is likely make or break for Jones?
Third year in the league
Second year in the same system
Likely much improved surrounding talent
Are those reasons you believe his job is on the line, or reasons you believe he will play well?
People need to be realistic when it comes to franchise quarterbacks. I mean literally - the majority of 12-15 year quarterbacks in the NFL all struggle at first, sometimes worse than Jones has.
Also - the fact that Terps sits there and says things like “there’s been nothing to enjoy at this point” is utter bullshit too.
He’s had some awesome games in both seasons.
He broke Giants records as a rookie.
He played very well down the stretch in 2020, the team went 4-2 in his final 6 starts and he cut WAY down on the turnovers. Perhaps they have a shot at Arizona if he was healthy. I guess we won’t ever know that.
But sure, let’s act like Daniel Jones has been abysmal for the Giants. The TEAM around him got better in 2020, and wouldn’t you know it, they played better down the stretch, including him.
But yup, there has been “nothing to enjoy” with our QB.
I’m going to enjoy Jones growth in 2021. Go root for the Bears or watch Justin Herbert played instead and have a good cry. Giants are going to be good in 2021, and Jones is going to improve. That’s my opinion, that’s what I think, and there’s plenty of anecdotal evidence to support that it’s not some batshit crazy theory.
Because he’s completely misinterpreting what I’m saying, that’s why.
Quote:
In comment 15252803 christian said:
Quote:
What are some of the reasons this year is likely make or break for Jones?
Third year in the league
Second year in the same system
Likely much improved surrounding talent
Are those reasons you believe his job is on the line, or reasons you believe he will play well?
Those are reasons to look for significant enough improvement to continue with him.
Shurmur especially for me was something that seemed to go on longer than it did because my mindset had concluded that a change was necessary which made it very tough to get much enjoyment out of anything that normally would result in pleasure. To be clear, I'm speaking about the second half of his second season.
In Ryan’s world there are two sets of people. People who agree with him, and idiots who are simply wrong. He can’t and won’t move off that and it is silly to try.
Quote:
Post had wisdom to glean, but instead was immediately refuted as "wrong".
In Ryan’s world there are two sets of people. People who agree with him, and idiots who are simply wrong. He can’t and won’t move off that and it is silly to try.
Applicable to only Ryan.
For some reason, you guys take that the wrong way. I’m not sure why. It’s right there, in writing, every time I say it.
For some reason, you guys take that the wrong way. I’m not sure why. It’s right there, in writing, every time I say it.
Why is this the year for Jones?
Those are reasons to look for significant enough improvement to continue with him.
Respectfully you’re answering a different question than what I am asking. I’m asking why this year is such a pivotal year for Jones.
I have enjoyed the previous 3 seasons. I didn't care so much for the inevitable endings, but that doesn't stop the enjoyment of the journey.
A football season starts in September, not January.
I'd prefer a few more ups in 2021, but that does not mean that there weren't any during the season(s).
I find the coach and the players that DG has brought in to be easy to root for.
I'd rather watch the Giants lose a nail biter to the (pick a team) than watch any other game that Sunday.
I will enjoy the game.
Most of us that have children that play football will have to endure bad teams. Those are the games that I wish that I could see again.
Football is so much more than what goes on the back of a football card or what happens in January/February.
That said, here's to the Giants ascending in 2021!
I have enjoyed the previous 3 seasons. I didn't care so much for the inevitable endings, but that doesn't stop the enjoyment of the journey.
A football season starts in September, not January.
I'd prefer a few more ups in 2021, but that does not mean that there weren't any during the season(s).
I find the coach and the players that DG has brought in to be easy to root for.
I'd rather watch the Giants lose a nail biter to the (pick a team) than watch any other game that Sunday.
I will enjoy the game.
Most of us that have children that play football will have to endure bad teams. Those are the games that I wish that I could see again.
Football is so much more than what goes on the back of a football card or what happens in January/February.
That said, here's to the Giants ascending in 2021!
Awesome post! Probably my favorite in a while. I'm just sorry more people don't feel the way that you do.
For some reason, you guys take that the wrong way. I’m not sure why. It’s right there, in writing, every time I say it.
Again, you are missing the point completely.
You believe this is a make or break year for Jones. Other posters believe (rightly or wrongly because it is an OPINION) that he is not the right guy. They see things in his game that make them believe he isn’t a franchise QB and sticking with him is throwing away another year. That opinion - like it or not - is just as valid as yours. They are not “ wrong” because they see it differently than you. They don’t say that because they hate Jones and hate the Giants. They say it because it is what their eyes tell them.
I can’t spell that out any more directly than that.
So now post “wrong” and tell me I am an idiot.
Daniel Jones is a great kid and deserves much praise for his fight, intensity and character. Judge's statement echoes this, but it also echoes the fact that perhaps Jones should not have played against Arizona. Do we win that game if McCoy plays? Not sure. But it raises the question so not sure it was the best thing to say.
The Giants have drafted and signed premium players on offense and put together a top tier defense over the past two years, passing over both Justin Herbert and Justin Fields, all to demonstrate their strong commitment to him. As constructed, this team is now a playoff team if it gets consistent quality quarterback play.
So development time is over. Excuse time is over. If Jones leads us to the playoffs, he should be extended. If not, the Giants should move on. And I applaud the Giants for acquiring draft capital next year to ensure that if he is not the guy, they are prepared to do so.
I have enjoyed the previous 3 seasons. I didn't care so much for the inevitable endings, but that doesn't stop the enjoyment of the journey.
A football season starts in September, not January.
I'd prefer a few more ups in 2021, but that does not mean that there weren't any during the season(s).
I find the coach and the players that DG has brought in to be easy to root for.
I'd rather watch the Giants lose a nail biter to the (pick a team) than watch any other game that Sunday.
I will enjoy the game.
Most of us that have children that play football will have to endure bad teams. Those are the games that I wish that I could see again.
Football is so much more than what goes on the back of a football card or what happens in January/February.
That said, here's to the Giants ascending in 2021!
Love it!! My son played on a Pee-Wee team that didn't win a game. Yet what we remember most about that season was that he scored TD's on a kick return, an INT and a pass. We remember the players and their families, some of whom we still hang out with.
I'm like Bill - I enjoyed last season a lot. We had hope. I did a weekly thing with a couple of friends that kept us involved. I enjoy rooting for the players and most of them are really likeable to root for.
Why do you believe the Giants would/should move on from Jones after this year of he doesn’t improve?
At the end of the day, EVERYONE - I'd bet even Go Terps - would want to see DJ become a great QB. The question right now is if he's on track to do so.
At worst, that question is up in the air. Coming in and pretending like anyone who questions whether Jones will actually be a good starter for NYG has a "bullshit opinion" is asinine.
Trading for Chicago's first rounder put that notion to bed. Either he becomes a productive quarterback for the first time in...ever...or it's good night the lights on the three year mistake.
I understand this point. There is logic to it. But Mara is a very patient, stubborn man. And I can't help but think he really wants to give Jones every chance to succeed/fail. So I still think Jones could get '22 as well to show if he has the right stuff.
Further, 2022 is not shaping up to be a bumper crop for QB prospects. Outside of Sam Howell it's an uninspiring class. Not a lot of dual threats. A lot of average looking pocket passers with some mobility. So thinking Jones's replacement could be just a year away - if he is poor again - is really wishful thinking right now.
Quote:
Are those reasons you believe his job is on the line, or reasons you believe he will play well?
Those are reasons to look for significant enough improvement to continue with him.
Respectfully you’re answering a different question than what I am asking. I’m asking why this year is such a pivotal year for Jones.
It is a pivotal year because of those I listed.
Quote:
do you mean why will Jones succeed this year? Or why is this “the year” before Giants move on if he doesn’t improve?
Why do you believe the Giants would/should move on from Jones after this year of he doesn’t improve?
Because to be honest I think 3 years is sufficient. He’s had his poor play and bumps the first few seasons, he’s had two coaches, two systems. With the investments we’ve made along OL, weapons, and second year in the system, now is the time. In today’s NFL I think 3 full years is what you need (with the correct stuff around him) to evaluate a franchise QB. Obviously if the guy is just completely and utterly pathetic and or isn’t putting in the work in, or there’s something else just not clicking, you move on. But for someone like Jones, 3 years is just about what was necessary for NYG to A) get rid of Shurmur and cut the prior players who were dragging the locker room down B) hire a new coach, “start over” and C) get Jones plenty of experience before “the year” where he should be starting to put everything together.
If Jones can’t succeed with what he’s been given now, it will be time to find a new solution.
Quote:
Before this weekend I was worried he'd get both 2021 and 2022 to prove he's something other than what he's shown in five years of college and pro football.
Trading for Chicago's first rounder put that notion to bed. Either he becomes a productive quarterback for the first time in...ever...or it's good night the lights on the three year mistake.
I understand this point. There is logic to it. But Mara is a very patient, stubborn man. And I can't help but think he really wants to give Jones every chance to succeed/fail. So I still think Jones could get '22 as well to show if he has the right stuff.
Further, 2022 is not shaping up to be a bumper crop for QB prospects. Outside of Sam Howell it's an uninspiring class. Not a lot of dual threats. A lot of average looking pocket passers with some mobility. So thinking Jones's replacement could be just a year away - if he is poor again - is really wishful thinking right now.
I would have agreed with you before the draft, but the draft capital will give them the opportunity to move to the top of the draft. If Jones does not produce and someone is worth taking, the Giants must do so. They simply can't pass over a Herbert or Fields next year. And though they may extend Jones as well given Mara's sense of loyalty, it would not be a sensible use of cap resources.
Never thought I’d see the day where PFF liked the Giants QB more than Giants fans did.
I think you're talking about a very small minority of very negative, loud and persistent posters.
My guess is a majority of Giants fans know that D. Jones shouldn't be judged based on '20 (for a long list of legitimate reasons) and that this is the year he will (hopefully) take a major leap forward.
First off, Ben and Rivers actually didn't take 2-3 years to develop.
Second off, if you've been in the league 12-15 years, you were a rookie a long time ago in a completely different NFL. NFL offense have taken a lot from the college game, and the ramp up type for QBs is much shorter than it used to be (as is their leash). I think 3 years is an acceptable amount of time, but if you don't see improvement, it makes sense to cut bait --- especially when you have 2 1st round picks the following year, which is ample capital to move up and grab a QB if needed.
It's pretty obvious why this is a make or break year for the Jones. It's because there is a great opportunity to move on if he ISN'T the answer/doesn't make a jump this year. The opportunity cost of giving a fourth year to wait it out is too large.
Personally though, I don't see how jones can NOT be better. Sure, the OL didn't have any players added to it, but you'd expect some growth from Gates, Lemiuex, and Thomas at the very least, and also would hope the line would gel after playing together for a year.
Add in a healthy Saquon, Golladay, Toney, and to a lesser extent, Ross (need to respect the deep game), and you have an offense which has the pieces to be in the top 3rd of the league if Jones can put it together.
I am actually pretty hopeful that Jones will improve this year. I just hope he improves enough to show he's the long term answer. Having said all that, he unequivocally has not shown enough to lay this debate to rest up to this point. He hasn't been a top 15 QB over the last 2 years, and it doesn't seem very disputable.
Off the top of my head:
Mahomes, Jackson, Brady, Herbet, Wilson, Herbert, Murray, Cousins, Ryan, Mayfield, Stafford, Rodgers, Tannehill, Allen, Rivers, Carr, Brees, Burrow, hell even Garrapalo have played better than him over the last 2 years. Other than Garrapalo, can anyone dispute those QBs have been better than Jones?
Sure, you have some legends on that list, but you also have young guys who have shown way more (Herbert, Murray, Burrow, Allen, Jackson). How can people sit there and say it's unfair to have questions about Jones viability when he lags behind all the young QBs in that list I came up with in five seconds?
People need to stop acting like it's unfair to not be sold on Jones.
Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?
Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
Daniel Jones is a great kid and deserves much praise for his fight, intensity and character. Judge's statement echoes this, but it also echoes the fact that perhaps Jones should not have played against Arizona. Do we win that game if McCoy plays? Not sure. But it raises the question so not sure it was the best thing to say.
The Giants have drafted and signed premium players on offense and put together a top tier defense over the past two years, passing over both Justin Herbert and Justin Fields, all to demonstrate their strong commitment to him. As constructed, this team is now a playoff team if it gets consistent quality quarterback play.
So development time is over. Excuse time is over. If Jones leads us to the playoffs, he should be extended. If not, the Giants should move on. And I applaud the Giants for acquiring draft capital next year to ensure that if he is not the guy, they are prepared to do so.
This is the good post.
And christian, Mike includes some of the reasons you are inquiring about imv...
The thing is, most of D. Jones defenders aren't trying to say that they KNOW for sure he's going to be our franchise QB beyond '21. We're just saying that he shouldn't be written off bc of '20 and deserves this season with a semi normal training camp with some actual NFL weapons, etc. Then he can be judged.
Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?
Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
But yeah, I agree, it isn't the Supreme Court, it's a Giants message board. That's why I think it's silly that people are acting like those who aren't bought in on Jones are "bad fans", or don't have valid opinions.
There's a debate to be had about whether people think he can make a leap, but no "side" is inherently wrong or flawed. I do think people have blind faith though (and it's the same people telling others they're bad fans, or think people are rooting for Jones to fail just to pat themselves on the back).
This isn't a perfect 1:1 example, but I absolutely hated the OBJ pick. I wanted Zach Martin. In retrospect, the team would be better with Zach Martin. But when OBJ was all pro and the best WR in Giants history for a period of time, I enjoyed it and rooted my ass off for him. I was super stoked to be totally wrong. When it all went south, I didn't pat myself on the back and say I was right all along -- I was instead disappointed the full trajectory of his career didn't manifest itself.
People forget sometimes that we are all Giants fans and all we want is to see the team win. We might have different opinions about how to get there, but nobody will be pissed if Jones shuts up the doubters and blossoms into an awesome QB.
And coach seemed to ignore that he played poorly before the injury. Last year is water under the bridge. DJ has been given a full slate of weapons, so let's see what he can do with them.
First off, Ben and Rivers actually didn't take 2-3 years to develop.
Oh really? Phil Rivers played football for his first two seasons in the league? When did that happen? He sat on the bench for two years.
Ben didn't need time to develop? His third year in the league was actually worse than his first two, he threw 23 picks in his third season. His 4th year is when he started to take off. And also, the "team" was very good his first few seasons, he wasn't asked to do much at all except hand the ball off. He threw for 2600 and 2300 yards his first two seasons.
Quote:
There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.
Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?
Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
I don't know if you were talking to me, but I posted pretty early in this thread and praised Jones toughness and said this made me feel better about his play last year (though people did raise a good point that if he was that hurt, he shouldn't have been out there).
But yeah, I agree, it isn't the Supreme Court, it's a Giants message board. That's why I think it's silly that people are acting like those who aren't bought in on Jones are "bad fans", or don't have valid opinions.
There's a debate to be had about whether people think he can make a leap, but no "side" is inherently wrong or flawed. I do think people have blind faith though (and it's the same people telling others they're bad fans, or think people are rooting for Jones to fail just to pat themselves on the back).
This isn't a perfect 1:1 example, but I absolutely hated the OBJ pick. I wanted Zach Martin. In retrospect, the team would be better with Zach Martin. But when OBJ was all pro and the best WR in Giants history for a period of time, I enjoyed it and rooted my ass off for him. I was super stoked to be totally wrong. When it all went south, I didn't pat myself on the back and say I was right all along -- I was instead disappointed the full trajectory of his career didn't manifest itself.
People forget sometimes that we are all Giants fans and all we want is to see the team win. We might have different opinions about how to get there, but nobody will be pissed if Jones shuts up the doubters and blossoms into an awesome QB.
It wasn't to anybody in particular, just in general. There are places to criticize Jones, plenty of threads. I just don't think this is a good one to rehash it, and don't understand why every thread on Jones has to turn in to this.
Maybe we need a dedicated thread to bitch about Jones.
Quote:
who have been in the league 12-15 years taking time to develop.
First off, Ben and Rivers actually didn't take 2-3 years to develop.
Oh really? Phil Rivers played football for his first two seasons in the league? When did that happen? He sat on the bench for two years.
Ben didn't need time to develop? His third year in the league was actually worse than his first two, he threw 23 picks in his third season. His 4th year is when he started to take off. And also, the "team" was very good his first few seasons, he wasn't asked to do much at all except hand the ball off. He threw for 2600 and 2300 yards his first two seasons.
Plus, let's look at Eli; in 05-07 he threw 55 interceptions and for a good portion of the 07 Super Bowl season people still wanted to fire him.
And I know BBI didn't exist at the time, but I'm sure Phil Simms was getting a lot of love in 1984 (his 6th season).
I know it's a different era now, but is it too much to ask to acknowledge D. Jones had a shitload of things working against him in his 2nd year and give him a 3rd season to prove himself (with a more experienced OL and some actual legit weapons)?
Fortunately the HC, GM, et al. don't agree with the haters. And if D. Jones does prove himself this year, we'll be SO much further towards the end goal than we would be if we hit reset again.
And I know BBI didn't exist at the time, but I'm sure Phil Simms was getting a lot of love in 1984 (his 6th season).
I know it's a different era now, but is it too much to ask to acknowledge D. Jones had a shitload of things working against him in his 2nd year and give him a 3rd season to prove himself (with a more experienced OL and some actual legit weapons)?
Fortunately the HC, GM, et al. don't agree with the haters. And if D. Jones does prove himself this year, we'll be SO much further towards the end goal than we would be if we hit reset again.
Heck, in 1986 Simms was still getting booed judging by footage from the America's Game episode on the 1986 Giants.
Quote:
There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.
Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?
Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
I don't know if you were talking to me, but I posted pretty early in this thread and praised Jones toughness and said this made me feel better about his play last year (though people did raise a good point that if he was that hurt, he shouldn't have been out there).
But yeah, I agree, it isn't the Supreme Court, it's a Giants message board. That's why I think it's silly that people are acting like those who aren't bought in on Jones are "bad fans", or don't have valid opinions.
There's a debate to be had about whether people think he can make a leap, but no "side" is inherently wrong or flawed. I do think people have blind faith though (and it's the same people telling others they're bad fans, or think people are rooting for Jones to fail just to pat themselves on the back).
This isn't a perfect 1:1 example, but I absolutely hated the OBJ pick. I wanted Zach Martin. In retrospect, the team would be better with Zach Martin. But when OBJ was all pro and the best WR in Giants history for a period of time, I enjoyed it and rooted my ass off for him. I was super stoked to be totally wrong. When it all went south, I didn't pat myself on the back and say I was right all along -- I was instead disappointed the full trajectory of his career didn't manifest itself.
People forget sometimes that we are all Giants fans and all we want is to see the team win. We might have different opinions about how to get there, but nobody will be pissed if Jones shuts up the doubters and blossoms into an awesome QB.
Great post. This isn't a referendum on Jones - it is a referendum on Giants "decision making". Defending poor performance or making excuses will always raise visceral fan reaction because of the team's legacy of poor decision making. Judge appears to be changing this for the better ala George Young. Unfortunately, Judge's comments give fuel to both sides of the debate and create the fear that poor managerial decision making could rear its ugly ahead at any time.
We are all great Giants fans and I would expect lots of passionate and differing opinions on this matter in the year ahead.
Quote:
In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.
Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?
Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
I don't know if you were talking to me, but I posted pretty early in this thread and praised Jones toughness and said this made me feel better about his play last year (though people did raise a good point that if he was that hurt, he shouldn't have been out there).
But yeah, I agree, it isn't the Supreme Court, it's a Giants message board. That's why I think it's silly that people are acting like those who aren't bought in on Jones are "bad fans", or don't have valid opinions.
There's a debate to be had about whether people think he can make a leap, but no "side" is inherently wrong or flawed. I do think people have blind faith though (and it's the same people telling others they're bad fans, or think people are rooting for Jones to fail just to pat themselves on the back).
This isn't a perfect 1:1 example, but I absolutely hated the OBJ pick. I wanted Zach Martin. In retrospect, the team would be better with Zach Martin. But when OBJ was all pro and the best WR in Giants history for a period of time, I enjoyed it and rooted my ass off for him. I was super stoked to be totally wrong. When it all went south, I didn't pat myself on the back and say I was right all along -- I was instead disappointed the full trajectory of his career didn't manifest itself.
People forget sometimes that we are all Giants fans and all we want is to see the team win. We might have different opinions about how to get there, but nobody will be pissed if Jones shuts up the doubters and blossoms into an awesome QB.
Great post. This isn't a referendum on Jones - it is a referendum on Giants "decision making". Defending poor performance or making excuses will always raise visceral fan reaction because of the team's legacy of poor decision making. Judge appears to be changing this for the better ala George Young. Unfortunately, Judge's comments give fuel to both sides of the debate and create the fear that poor managerial decision making could rear its ugly ahead at any time.
We are all great Giants fans and I would expect lots of passionate and differing opinions on this matter in the year ahead.
Well this thread wasn't intended to be about Giants Decision Making, was it? It was intended to talk about Jones playing through serious injury, by way of a strong compliment from the coach.
And I know BBI didn't exist at the time, but I'm sure Phil Simms was getting a lot of love in 1984 (his 6th season).
I know it's a different era now, but is it too much to ask to acknowledge D. Jones had a shitload of things working against him in his 2nd year and give him a 3rd season to prove himself (with a more experienced OL and some actual legit weapons)?
Fortunately the HC, GM, et al. don't agree with the haters. And if D. Jones does prove himself this year, we'll be SO much further towards the end goal than we would be if we hit reset again.
The problem is that several posters have taken it upon themselves to attack or defend Jones regardless of the conversation. It’s juvenile but it happens constantly.
Maybe we can have a thread like this praising Jones and not have someone call out Terps or BW? Maybe we could have a thread critical of Jones without someone calling out his defenders?
This is not a one way thing no matter how many - on both sides - want to believe that.
The problem is that several posters have taken it upon themselves to attack or defend Jones regardless of the conversation. It’s juvenile but it happens constantly.
Maybe we can have a thread like this praising Jones and not have someone call out Terps or BW? Maybe we could have a thread critical of Jones without someone calling out his defenders?
This is not a one way thing no matter how many - on both sides - want to believe that.
I can't speak for anybody that called anybody out, but let's face it, it would have happened inevitably whether a call out occurred or not.
I'm open to having a productive conversation on Jones, and it's probably already happened in some way shape or form, but these days it feels impossible.
Add to that, the fact he had to deal with that challenge without OTAs, a largely virtual camp, no preseason, a rookie LT, UDFA C who never played C, the worst WR corps in the league, Evan "Look, No Hands" Engram as his #1 target, etc., etc.
I'm rooting for him to kick major ass this year. Getting us to the 2nd rd of the playoffs would be a nice stepping stone (and maybe shut the haters TF up).
Quote:
In comment 15252908 Bear vs Shark said:
Quote:
In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.
Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?
Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
I don't know if you were talking to me, but I posted pretty early in this thread and praised Jones toughness and said this made me feel better about his play last year (though people did raise a good point that if he was that hurt, he shouldn't have been out there).
But yeah, I agree, it isn't the Supreme Court, it's a Giants message board. That's why I think it's silly that people are acting like those who aren't bought in on Jones are "bad fans", or don't have valid opinions.
There's a debate to be had about whether people think he can make a leap, but no "side" is inherently wrong or flawed. I do think people have blind faith though (and it's the same people telling others they're bad fans, or think people are rooting for Jones to fail just to pat themselves on the back).
This isn't a perfect 1:1 example, but I absolutely hated the OBJ pick. I wanted Zach Martin. In retrospect, the team would be better with Zach Martin. But when OBJ was all pro and the best WR in Giants history for a period of time, I enjoyed it and rooted my ass off for him. I was super stoked to be totally wrong. When it all went south, I didn't pat myself on the back and say I was right all along -- I was instead disappointed the full trajectory of his career didn't manifest itself.
People forget sometimes that we are all Giants fans and all we want is to see the team win. We might have different opinions about how to get there, but nobody will be pissed if Jones shuts up the doubters and blossoms into an awesome QB.
Great post. This isn't a referendum on Jones - it is a referendum on Giants "decision making". Defending poor performance or making excuses will always raise visceral fan reaction because of the team's legacy of poor decision making. Judge appears to be changing this for the better ala George Young. Unfortunately, Judge's comments give fuel to both sides of the debate and create the fear that poor managerial decision making could rear its ugly ahead at any time.
We are all great Giants fans and I would expect lots of passionate and differing opinions on this matter in the year ahead.
Well this thread wasn't intended to be about Giants Decision Making, was it? It was intended to talk about Jones playing through serious injury, by way of a strong compliment from the coach.
I know what the intention was, but as soon as Judge alludes to the fact that perhaps Jones should not have played over McCoy, who had just beaten the Seahawks in perhaps the best win in five years, it opens the door for visceral reaction to the decision and, by extension, Jones.
They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".
That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?
And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.
Quote:
What we need is for people to express their opinions without personally attacking other posters. This thread went off the rails when someone fired a shot at Terps when he wasn’t on the thread.
The problem is that several posters have taken it upon themselves to attack or defend Jones regardless of the conversation. It’s juvenile but it happens constantly.
Maybe we can have a thread like this praising Jones and not have someone call out Terps or BW? Maybe we could have a thread critical of Jones without someone calling out his defenders?
This is not a one way thing no matter how many - on both sides - want to believe that.
I can't speak for anybody that called anybody out, but let's face it, it would have happened inevitably whether a call out occurred or not.
I'm open to having a productive conversation on Jones, and it's probably already happened in some way shape or form, but these days it feels impossible.
I think the Giants are trying to put Jones in a position that he can do his best, but the problem is how? What's more important? There's a lot of chicken and the egg between having better wide receivers and having a better offensive line so Jones has time to throw to said receivers. Perhaps with signing Kyle Rudolph who's a two-way tight end Engram can be lined up wide as a deep threat and not have to block, but he's gotta get better hands.
Quote:
They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".
That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?
And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.
People didn't just pop off and say "Eli will be fine". Most often they were direct responses to other posters.
And, in a past is prologue type of thing, most of the criticism was his perceived penchant for an untimely fumble or interception.
I'm not sure that anyone is saying this.
The fact that Engram was the #1 target last year was a really bad shituation.
With the added weapons, Engram might be #4 or 5 target this year. That by itself will be an improvement. If he's targeted 25-30 times instead of 110, that's a win. Less damage.
Quote:
In comment 15252952 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
What we need is for people to express their opinions without personally attacking other posters. This thread went off the rails when someone fired a shot at Terps when he wasn’t on the thread.
The problem is that several posters have taken it upon themselves to attack or defend Jones regardless of the conversation. It’s juvenile but it happens constantly.
Maybe we can have a thread like this praising Jones and not have someone call out Terps or BW? Maybe we could have a thread critical of Jones without someone calling out his defenders?
This is not a one way thing no matter how many - on both sides - want to believe that.
I can't speak for anybody that called anybody out, but let's face it, it would have happened inevitably whether a call out occurred or not.
I'm open to having a productive conversation on Jones, and it's probably already happened in some way shape or form, but these days it feels impossible.
I think the Giants are trying to put Jones in a position that he can do his best, but the problem is how? What's more important? There's a lot of chicken and the egg between having better wide receivers and having a better offensive line so Jones has time to throw to said receivers. Perhaps with signing Kyle Rudolph who's a two-way tight end Engram can be lined up wide as a deep threat and not have to block, but he's gotta get better hands.
One of the main reasons I was so hopeful they would have drafted an offensive lineman is to take away the only excuse left - that Jones has an inferior OL and can't be properly evaluated until it is "NFL competent". Just the thought of that coming argument is hair raising.
At the end of the day, EVERYONE - I'd bet even Go Terps - would want to see DJ become a great QB. The question right now is if he's on track to do so.
At worst, that question is up in the air. Coming in and pretending like anyone who questions whether Jones will actually be a good starter for NYG has a "bullshit opinion" is asinine.
Who TF put you in charge?? Fuck off "MOM"
And not for nothing, but for a whole lot of people that show disdain for Go Terps and his opinions on DJ you all sure go about it in a ridiculous fashion. If he is on the thread you call him out for hijacking it, and if he isn't you call him out for what he would say if he was on it.
Why not just engage as it's obvious you want to, argue all you want, but keep it on the reservation.
If you think its pointless...then what's your point?
Quote:
They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".
That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?
And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.
But the NFL as a whole isn't going to be giving QBs that time to develop anymore, which is why these comparisons to Eli and Simms are silly. It's not a NYG thing, it's an NFL thing. Between rookie contracts/options and the confluence of the college and pro games, teams need their first round QB picks to be "the guy" by year three.
Unless changes are made to the CBA, what we saw with the Jets and Darnold is going to become the norm for teams that don't have "the guy"
Quote:
They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".
That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?
And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.
That being said, this year is definitely the prove-it year for Jones. He has a really solid supporting cast now. Even if it isn't Tiki/Shockey/Toomer/Plax and that line, it's no longer pure dogshit.
Barkley/Golladay/Toney/Shepard/Slayton/Engram/Rudolph is a decent amount of weapons. He's gotta improve this year.
On the other hand, Eli was much more highly regarded as a prospect and a better arm (plus the pedigree). Right or wrong, people are typically more patient with highly regarded prospects.
Quote:
Before this weekend I was worried he'd get both 2021 and 2022 to prove he's something other than what he's shown in five years of college and pro football.
Trading for Chicago's first rounder put that notion to bed. Either he becomes a productive quarterback for the first time in...ever...or it's good night the lights on the three year mistake.
I understand this point. There is logic to it. But Mara is a very patient, stubborn man. And I can't help but think he really wants to give Jones every chance to succeed/fail. So I still think Jones could get '22 as well to show if he has the right stuff.
Further, 2022 is not shaping up to be a bumper crop for QB prospects. Outside of Sam Howell it's an uninspiring class. Not a lot of dual threats. A lot of average looking pocket passers with some mobility. So thinking Jones's replacement could be just a year away - if he is poor again - is really wishful thinking right now.
Well, part of the Jones decision at the end of 2021 is going to have to include what does that QB crop look like for the 2022 Draft. Way too early for anybody to weigh in there.
There are other options than extending DJ or just drafting a QB. They can wait another year to make a heavier investment in a college prospect. But obviously that comes with the cost of waiting as other player contracts get a year older and the extra #1 is right now only for 2022.
They can also trade for an NFL QB and have lot of picks in their pocket to do it.
Quote:
Stop acting like everyone needs to share your opinion. You're coming hot at santacruzom who's been a great poster for a long time and never really fought with anyone -- simply because he doesn't share your opinion.
At the end of the day, EVERYONE - I'd bet even Go Terps - would want to see DJ become a great QB. The question right now is if he's on track to do so.
At worst, that question is up in the air. Coming in and pretending like anyone who questions whether Jones will actually be a good starter for NYG has a "bullshit opinion" is asinine.
Who TF put you in charge?? Fuck off "MOM"
When you're the one sitting there acting like there's no argument at all *against* him being a franchise QB, you're the one living in fantasy land.
Quote:
In comment 15252908 Bear vs Shark said:
Quote:
In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.
Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?
Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
I don't know if you were talking to me, but I posted pretty early in this thread and praised Jones toughness and said this made me feel better about his play last year (though people did raise a good point that if he was that hurt, he shouldn't have been out there).
But yeah, I agree, it isn't the Supreme Court, it's a Giants message board. That's why I think it's silly that people are acting like those who aren't bought in on Jones are "bad fans", or don't have valid opinions.
There's a debate to be had about whether people think he can make a leap, but no "side" is inherently wrong or flawed. I do think people have blind faith though (and it's the same people telling others they're bad fans, or think people are rooting for Jones to fail just to pat themselves on the back).
This isn't a perfect 1:1 example, but I absolutely hated the OBJ pick. I wanted Zach Martin. In retrospect, the team would be better with Zach Martin. But when OBJ was all pro and the best WR in Giants history for a period of time, I enjoyed it and rooted my ass off for him. I was super stoked to be totally wrong. When it all went south, I didn't pat myself on the back and say I was right all along -- I was instead disappointed the full trajectory of his career didn't manifest itself.
People forget sometimes that we are all Giants fans and all we want is to see the team win. We might have different opinions about how to get there, but nobody will be pissed if Jones shuts up the doubters and blossoms into an awesome QB.
Great post. This isn't a referendum on Jones - it is a referendum on Giants "decision making". Defending poor performance or making excuses will always raise visceral fan reaction because of the team's legacy of poor decision making. Judge appears to be changing this for the better ala George Young. Unfortunately, Judge's comments give fuel to both sides of the debate and create the fear that poor managerial decision making could rear its ugly ahead at any time.
We are all great Giants fans and I would expect lots of passionate and differing opinions on this matter in the year ahead.
Well this thread wasn't intended to be about Giants Decision Making, was it? It was intended to talk about Jones playing through serious injury, by way of a strong compliment from the coach.
I can tell you this though: there isn't a single person in this thread, even, I'd imagine, Jones's biggest detractors like GT, who think he isn't tough or isn't a high character guy.
Quote:
In comment 15252866 Bear vs Shark said:
Quote:
Stop acting like everyone needs to share your opinion. You're coming hot at santacruzom who's been a great poster for a long time and never really fought with anyone -- simply because he doesn't share your opinion.
At the end of the day, EVERYONE - I'd bet even Go Terps - would want to see DJ become a great QB. The question right now is if he's on track to do so.
At worst, that question is up in the air. Coming in and pretending like anyone who questions whether Jones will actually be a good starter for NYG has a "bullshit opinion" is asinine.
Who TF put you in charge?? Fuck off "MOM"
Nobody put me in charge -- I'm just telling you that you sound like a homer, a crybaby, and a petulant little child. Feel free to continue making yourself look like a fool because people have the audacity to question if Daniel fucking Jones is going to end up being a franchise QB or not (as if that isn't a valid question to ask).
When you're the one sitting there acting like there's no argument at all *against* him being a franchise QB, you're the one living in fantasy land.
The argument doesn't hold water. The offensive line has been horrible and the receivers haven't been much better. The kid deserves a fair test and until he fails he deserves the benefit of the doubt.
Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?
I came into this discussion to question why Jones was even playing if, per Judge, he probably shouldn't have been in the game in the first place. We were still competing for a division title, so we needed to put the best players in the game who gave us the best chance to win (even if that meant McCoy). Jones right now is a very limited pocket passer. But he's a threat on the move. By him not being able to do that, the people who cleared Jones hurt the team - IMV.
So that created an off ramp to question the judgment of the medical staff and the coaching staff.
But toughness doesn't really mean anything to me if you can't create more wins. So I can see why others wouldn't find this compliment by Judge to be persuasive in closing the gap why Jones is the solution at QB...
The problem is not with people’s varying opinions on Jones, it is with the inability to tolerate a difference of opinion. Why call out Ryan if Jones plays badly? Why call out Terps when the coach praises him? What prize are you looking for?
I wouldn’t care if people want to be provocative jerks, except that threads devolve into this silliness too often and this board becomes unreadable.
Well, part of the Jones decision at the end of 2021 is going to have to include what does that QB crop look like for the 2022 Draft. Way too early for anybody to weigh in there.
There are other options than extending DJ or just drafting a QB. They can wait another year to make a heavier investment in a college prospect. But obviously that comes with the cost of waiting as other player contracts get a year older and the extra #1 is right now only for 2022.
They can also trade for an NFL QB and have lot of picks in their pocket to do it.
That's true about using the picks to possibly acquire another QB via trade - good point.
But not all draft classes are created equal. So just because the last few looked good we shouldn't assume the next class will look similar. Because right now it isn't shaping up to that attractive outside of Howell and maybe - maybe - Rattler.
Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?
Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
And that's what it's always about for you. Enjoyment. Not winning, just enjoyment.
Same reason why you celebrated the pregame shows two years ago.
I just don't understand why it doesn't matter to you for the Giants to actually be good at football.
Quote:
They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".
That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?
And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.
The NFL was different then. That was 17 years ago that Eli entered the league.
We're now seeing QBs win the MVP in their second year, repeatedly. There isn't the same learning curve that there used to be. Could DJ break out this year and put it all together? Absolutely.
I just don't understand why anyone thinks that's the chalk. He's even money at best.
Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?
Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
Quote:
There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.
Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?
Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
They deserve their say as much you do.
Britt's going to tell you that you're "moving the goalposts" if you acknowledge any view other than his.
And spend all the draft picks every year on OL until the unit is "fixed".
(i.e. you CANT have a productive conversation on the QB when those fans have a "win NOW, no excuses, even if he has to play all 11 positions by himself simultaneously)
Quote:
In comment 15252542 LeonBright45 said:
Quote:
In comment 15252538 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 15252454 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
who are not willing to develop a quarterback.
I think it's more a matter of a few posters who don't believe that Jones automatically qualifies as a "developmental quarterback."
^^Most idiotic post of the day^^
Don't be am ass. It's way too obtuse to label Jones' critics as people who just think a QB should immediately be stellar and never have to develop their skills.
I'd say they just don't think he'll put it together and be elite. It's a common tale that we've seen with dozens of QBs. Why should freaking Daniel Jones of all people be exempt from this concern?
I bet you believe every QB will never 'put it together and be elite" until the time actually comes and then you stand up on your chair and scream that you knew he could do it all along.
I'll take that bet. I win! What do you owe me?
Quote:
Well, part of the Jones decision at the end of 2021 is going to have to include what does that QB crop look like for the 2022 Draft. Way too early for anybody to weigh in there.
There are other options than extending DJ or just drafting a QB. They can wait another year to make a heavier investment in a college prospect. But obviously that comes with the cost of waiting as other player contracts get a year older and the extra #1 is right now only for 2022.
They can also trade for an NFL QB and have lot of picks in their pocket to do it.
That's true about using the picks to possibly acquire another QB via trade - good point.
But not all draft classes are created equal. So just because the last few looked good we shouldn't assume the next class will look similar. Because right now it isn't shaping up to that attractive outside of Howell and maybe - maybe - Rattler.
Yes, very true. Just suggesting top guys come forward sometimes in just one year (like a Joe Burrow) so the QB radar isn't yet on full force.
I want DJ to succeed as stated numerous times, but NYG fans might also have to endure a few more seasons before their franchise guy is actually on the horizon...
And spend all the draft picks every year on OL until the unit is "fixed".
(i.e. you CANT have a productive conversation on the QB when those fans have a "win NOW, no excuses, even if he has to play all 11 positions by himself simultaneously)
I'm not sure anyone is actually asking for that.
I think it's perfectly fair to ask that if you're going to defend DJ, you should acknowledge that his production last season was at the junior varsity level and he needs to improve if we're going to win.
That's what it's about: we are all rooting for the Giants to win. We don't all have the same path in mind to achieve that, but we all are rooting for the same goal.
I'm just not sure why certain fans need to celebrate their state of denial along the way.
Quote:
Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?
I came into this discussion to question why Jones was even playing if, per Judge, he probably shouldn't have been in the game in the first place. We were still competing for a division title, so we needed to put the best players in the game who gave us the best chance to win (even if that meant McCoy). Jones right now is a very limited pocket passer. But he's a threat on the move. By him not being able to do that, the people who cleared Jones hurt the team - IMV.
So that created an off ramp to question the judgment of the medical staff and the coaching staff.
But toughness doesn't really mean anything to me if you can't create more wins. So I can see why others wouldn't find this compliment by Judge to be persuasive in closing the gap why Jones is the solution at QB...
I wrote:
The point being Field was able to keep playing, despite obviously being hurt, and still be productive. Let me write that word again - productive. And that's been my point all along - if you are hurt, but you can play and still be productive, than that still helps the team.
Jones was hurt but couldn't be productive.
And I know you are smart enough to get the point.
Quote:
There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.
Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?
Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
And that's what it's always about for you. Enjoyment. Not winning, just enjoyment.
Same reason why you celebrated the pregame shows two years ago.
I just don't understand why it doesn't matter to you for the Giants to actually be good at football.
I enjoy football. I also enjoy winning.
I'd be Britt is the same.
This is more about enjoying BBI than it is about enjoying Giants football.
And spend all the draft picks every year on OL until the unit is "fixed".
(i.e. you CANT have a productive conversation on the QB when those fans have a "win NOW, no excuses, even if he has to play all 11 positions by himself simultaneously)
What is preventing you and Britt from having that conversation on here or any other thread? Go right ahead. Type him a post and converse about DJ...
Quote:
In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.
Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?
Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
And that's what it's always about for you. Enjoyment. Not winning, just enjoyment.
Same reason why you celebrated the pregame shows two years ago.
I just don't understand why it doesn't matter to you for the Giants to actually be good at football.
Dunk, that's unwarranted and unfair.
I enjoy football. I also enjoy winning.
I'd be Britt is the same.
This is more about enjoying BBI than it is about enjoying Giants football.
No, it's more than BBI. Otherwise he wouldn't have been celebrating how much enjoyed the pregame shows after OBJ was traded.
He appears to have a very strict framework for the sort of Giants team that he wants to root for, and he'll buy in for that product regardless of whether it delivers wins.
That's not to say that he doesn't enjoy the wins as much as any Giants fan. But he sure does excuse the losses a lot more if they satisfy his sitcom expectation for the team.
Okay, kudos to you for not literally calling people idiots when their opinion differs from yours. You're just calling their opinions blatant bullshit, which is much better.
And watch it dissolve into this same shitty back forth over and over again. Like Groundhog day... lol
And yes I am convinced that some people just don't know how to embrace any optimism at all about this team. No matter what our record becomes or how well we are doing.
And watch it dissolve into this same shitty back forth over and over again. Like Groundhog day... lol
And yes I am convinced that some people just don't know how to embrace any optimism at all about this team. No matter what our record becomes or how well we are doing.
I'm actually VERY optimistic about this team.
But the pollyannas are tiresome even when the arrow is pointing up.
Quote:
In comment 15252951 Bear vs Shark said:
Quote:
They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".
That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?
And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.
But the NFL as a whole isn't going to be giving QBs that time to develop anymore, which is why these comparisons to Eli and Simms are silly. It's not a NYG thing, it's an NFL thing. Between rookie contracts/options and the confluence of the college and pro games, teams need their first round QB picks to be "the guy" by year three.
Unless changes are made to the CBA, what we saw with the Jets and Darnold is going to become the norm for teams that don't have "the guy"
I acknowledged that it's a different era, but considering the circumstances (e.g., Kevin Gilbride saying '21 "should be considered his 2nd year"), can we give him THIS FUCKING YEAR?
The Jets gave Darnold a 3rd year to prove himself! He failed and the Jets are moving on. That's all anyone's asking for. Jones 3rd year to prove himself.
Darnold hadn't even performed as well as Jones has his first 2 years (avg QBR low 40s vs. nearly 60). And though Darnold did have to deal with a new coach and offense, it wasn't during the fucking pandemic, preventing OTAs, preseason, etc.
Quote:
In comment 15252963 Dr. D said:
Quote:
In comment 15252951 Bear vs Shark said:
Quote:
They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".
That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?
And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.
But the NFL as a whole isn't going to be giving QBs that time to develop anymore, which is why these comparisons to Eli and Simms are silly. It's not a NYG thing, it's an NFL thing. Between rookie contracts/options and the confluence of the college and pro games, teams need their first round QB picks to be "the guy" by year three.
Unless changes are made to the CBA, what we saw with the Jets and Darnold is going to become the norm for teams that don't have "the guy"
I acknowledged that it's a different era, but considering the circumstances (e.g., Kevin Gilbride saying '21 "should be considered his 2nd year"), can we give him THIS FUCKING YEAR?
The Jets gave Darnold a 3rd year to prove himself! He failed and the Jets are moving on. That's all anyone's asking for. Jones 3rd year to prove himself.
Darnold hadn't even performed as well as Jones has his first 2 years (avg QBR low 40s vs. nearly 60). And though Darnold did have to deal with a new coach and offense, it wasn't during the fucking pandemic, preventing OTAs, preseason, etc.
So then isn't Darnold a cautionary tale not to give a guy the third year?
An entire season seems a steep price to conduct an experiment on one player hoping he gives you a result he's never displayed on the field.
The Giants are chasing a myth in 2021 with Jones.
Quote:
In comment 15252963 Dr. D said:
Quote:
In comment 15252951 Bear vs Shark said:
Quote:
They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".
That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?
And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.
But the NFL as a whole isn't going to be giving QBs that time to develop anymore, which is why these comparisons to Eli and Simms are silly. It's not a NYG thing, it's an NFL thing. Between rookie contracts/options and the confluence of the college and pro games, teams need their first round QB picks to be "the guy" by year three.
Unless changes are made to the CBA, what we saw with the Jets and Darnold is going to become the norm for teams that don't have "the guy"
I acknowledged that it's a different era, but considering the circumstances (e.g., Kevin Gilbride saying '21 "should be considered his 2nd year"), can we give him THIS FUCKING YEAR?
The Jets gave Darnold a 3rd year to prove himself! He failed and the Jets are moving on. That's all anyone's asking for. Jones 3rd year to prove himself.
Darnold hadn't even performed as well as Jones has his first 2 years (avg QBR low 40s vs. nearly 60). And though Darnold did have to deal with a new coach and offense, it wasn't during the fucking pandemic, preventing OTAs, preseason, etc.
Are you joking around right now?
Jones IS getting that third year. No one is disputing that.
We're just discussing the team's future on a fucking message board.
Fortunately the HC, GM, et al. don't agree with the haters. And if D. Jones does prove himself this year, we'll be SO much further towards the end goal than we would be if we hit reset again.
Here's the thing though: "Fortunately, the Giants don't agree with the haters" is the exact sort of argument that was applied towards' Beckham's critics, all the way up to the point where Beckham was finally traded. Beckham's critics acknowledged his transcendental talent but were confident he would never learn to suppress his ego or selfishness, and would always wind up biting the team in the ass.
I see similarities here with most of Jones' critics/skeptics. Most of those who've said we should move on when an opportunity presents itself aren't ignoring his good games or good qualities. They just don't think they'll offset his bad ones. Is that really so crazy?
And spend all the draft picks every year on OL until the unit is "fixed".
(i.e. you CANT have a productive conversation on the QB when those fans have a "win NOW, no excuses, even if he has to play all 11 positions by himself simultaneously)
This is the classic "throw the first punch" and then complain that there is fighting in this establishment...
If "win now" isn't the objective, what is? Lose now but have lots of moral victories? Wait another decade to win? Thanks, but no thanks. Had my fill of that in the 1970s and this last decade.
The only objective is to start competing effectively and beating top tier NFL teams. NOW. Daniel Jones has yet to beat a winning team even once in his two years here. Can't say that about Eli. Can't say that about Phil. Can't even say that about Dave Brown.
When Jones starts beating good teams, the sentiment will change in his direction. Until then, skepticism will reign and the debate should rightfully rage on.
Quote:
In comment 15253000 Scooter185 said:
Quote:
In comment 15252963 Dr. D said:
Quote:
In comment 15252951 Bear vs Shark said:
Quote:
They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".
That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?
And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.
But the NFL as a whole isn't going to be giving QBs that time to develop anymore, which is why these comparisons to Eli and Simms are silly. It's not a NYG thing, it's an NFL thing. Between rookie contracts/options and the confluence of the college and pro games, teams need their first round QB picks to be "the guy" by year three.
Unless changes are made to the CBA, what we saw with the Jets and Darnold is going to become the norm for teams that don't have "the guy"
I acknowledged that it's a different era, but considering the circumstances (e.g., Kevin Gilbride saying '21 "should be considered his 2nd year"), can we give him THIS FUCKING YEAR?
The Jets gave Darnold a 3rd year to prove himself! He failed and the Jets are moving on. That's all anyone's asking for. Jones 3rd year to prove himself.
Darnold hadn't even performed as well as Jones has his first 2 years (avg QBR low 40s vs. nearly 60). And though Darnold did have to deal with a new coach and offense, it wasn't during the fucking pandemic, preventing OTAs, preseason, etc.
Are you joking around right now?
Jones IS getting that third year. No one is disputing that.
We're just discussing the team's future on a fucking message board.
Read the post above yours.
An entire season seems a steep price to conduct an experiment on one player hoping he gives you a result he's never displayed on the field.
The Giants are chasing a myth in 2021 with Jones.
What progress did Darnold retard on the Jets? They moved away from him after year three, actually got something in return and drafted his successor.
And Darnold is a starting QB still in the league
Quote:
... with "Jones" in the title.
And watch it dissolve into this same shitty back forth over and over again. Like Groundhog day... lol
And yes I am convinced that some people just don't know how to embrace any optimism at all about this team. No matter what our record becomes or how well we are doing.
I'm actually VERY optimistic about this team.
But the pollyannas are tiresome even when the arrow is pointing up.
And I am optimistic as well now that JJ has started stretching his elbows a bit more around roster building. They have plugged for a lot of holes this offseason and with some decent QB play I think the NFCE division is for the taking.
Far from any title thoughts though until you start seeing them beating some of the stronger teams. But optimism nonetheless.
Quote:
In comment 15253076 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.
Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?
Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
And that's what it's always about for you. Enjoyment. Not winning, just enjoyment.
Same reason why you celebrated the pregame shows two years ago.
I just don't understand why it doesn't matter to you for the Giants to actually be good at football.
Dunk, that's unwarranted and unfair.
I enjoy football. I also enjoy winning.
I'd be Britt is the same.
This is more about enjoying BBI than it is about enjoying Giants football.
No, it's more than BBI. Otherwise he wouldn't have been celebrating how much enjoyed the pregame shows after OBJ was traded.
He appears to have a very strict framework for the sort of Giants team that he wants to root for, and he'll buy in for that product regardless of whether it delivers wins.
That's not to say that he doesn't enjoy the wins as much as any Giants fan. But he sure does excuse the losses a lot more if they satisfy his sitcom expectation for the team.
After the mess that was made re: OBj, I was happy for the trade.
(I missed Britt's post)
I think that "making excuses" may be very similar to, "accepting that which we cannot control."
I would argue, you are also "bought in," we all are.
We get to decide whether to complain/accept/excuse/vilify/enjoy...
...
There is not as much to like as dislike about DJ, right now...and I'm all-in. (because the alternative is...?)
That said, there seems to be more to like than dislike about DG. While I agree that we need to wait to see how the trades/drafts unfold, does that not make the case that when disparaging him, we should also wait to see how the trades/drafts unfold?
I enjoy conversation about W/Ls, analytics and the like.
I really enjoy breaking down film. (wish we could get Giants games on HUDL)
But, at the end of the day...
...I root for the guys on the roster. When one leaves, I root for a different guy.
I don’t understand why this concept is so hard to grasp at BBI. I don’t know why all of a sudden BBI became the “quarterbacks must be good immediately!” Message board because it’s not realistic. Go root for the Chiefs if you think that way.
Our roster absolutely sucked when Jones was drafted. They have done a good job since that time acquiring talent around him to set him for success. Yeah - it’s on him to play well even when things aren’t going his way. But you can’t expect that immediately, it takes time. If he’s still not getting it done in year 3 and doesn’t elevate his teammates in year 3, it’ll be time to look at another solution.
This notion that “oh the giants are just HOPING he’s good.”…….yeah no fucking shit.
Quote:
In comment 15253076 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.
Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?
Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
And that's what it's always about for you. Enjoyment. Not winning, just enjoyment.
Same reason why you celebrated the pregame shows two years ago.
I just don't understand why it doesn't matter to you for the Giants to actually be good at football.
Dunk, that's unwarranted and unfair.
I enjoy football. I also enjoy winning.
I'd be Britt is the same.
This is more about enjoying BBI than it is about enjoying Giants football.
No, it's more than BBI. Otherwise he wouldn't have been celebrating how much enjoyed the pregame shows after OBJ was traded.
He appears to have a very strict framework for the sort of Giants team that he wants to root for, and he'll buy in for that product regardless of whether it delivers wins.
That's not to say that he doesn't enjoy the wins as much as any Giants fan. But he sure does excuse the losses a lot more if they satisfy his sitcom expectation for the team.
So now your creating fictional narratives for other posters now, too? That is pretty outrageous.
Again, I'll abstain from doing the same to you.
There is not as much to like as dislike about DJ, right now...and I'm all-in. (because the alternative is...?)
That said, there seems to be more to like than dislike about DG. While I agree that we need to wait to see how the trades/drafts unfold, does that not make the case that when disparaging him, we should also wait to see how the trades/drafts unfold?
I enjoy conversation about W/Ls, analytics and the like.
I really enjoy breaking down film. (wish we could get Giants games on HUDL)
And yet other posters still like to converse about how trades/drafts unfolded for many past years, and how they might for years to come. Some don't have to wait and see to actually just type an opinion or make a point.
And its actually ok to do so...
You didn't start a thread celebrating how much more you enjoyed pregame shows (not games, just pregame shows) after OBJ was traded?
That's fiction?
C'mon man. FFS, you don't get the emotional side of managing humans at all. When the QB is willing to play hurt it matters. Every single championship season I watched this team play has been lead by warriors. Men that choose to sacrifice themselves for their brothers. When teams talk about culture it is this that they are trying to build. It is why OBJ had to go. When the QB is one the guys that is an example for toughness, the whole thing comes together. Think, Phil, Eli, Hoss. Those were tough bastards. Get someone on the D to match and we got something. You think LW has not been hurt in the trenches? He plays, it is a big reason why he was traded for and overpaid. You are taking shots at people that are going to be the reason you celebrate another championship. If you believe in Judge and Judge believes in DJ, what does that mean to you? If you tell me that Mara would force Judge to keep a bad young QB, I lose all respect for your opinions.
Again, this isn't about toughness or praising Jones's toughness, it's about questioning the the medical team and coaches. Not Mara. I have never mentioned Mara.
If Jones was as hurt as Judge suggests, and Jones wasn't going to be use his mobility, his key asset because he still isn't close to a refined pocket QB, than Jones shouldn't have been playing and we possibly lost at least one game - Arizona - because Jones wasn't truly ready to play.
Here is a stat I read today in NJ.com. In the first 10 games before suffering the hamstring injury, Jones averaged five rushes per game at a 7.8 yards per carry. In his final three games he played after the injury, Jones averaged 3.3 rushes and two yards per carry. So he was clearly incapable of using his best asset. And I think that hurt us in our attempt to win the division...
Quote:
maybe you should do some writing for some of those sitcoms you mention.
You didn't start a thread celebrating how much more you enjoyed pregame shows (not games, just pregame shows) after OBJ was traded?
That's fiction?
I don't remember if I did. Why do you so clearly?
This has gone far enough, it's too contentious and dare I say crossed a line of nastiness that it's not really entertaining or productive.
I'm done with this.
Quote:
In comment 15253166 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
maybe you should do some writing for some of those sitcoms you mention.
You didn't start a thread celebrating how much more you enjoyed pregame shows (not games, just pregame shows) after OBJ was traded?
That's fiction?
I don't remember if I did. Why do you so clearly?
This has gone far enough, it's too contentious and dare I say crossed a line of nastiness that it's not really entertaining or productive.
I'm done with this.
I remember very clearly that you did. Because my immediate reaction was, "why TF would anyone care about enjoying pregame shows more after a player was traded?"
I'm happy to go find the thread if you'd like. I don't think there's anything nasty about that, do you?
So then isn't Darnold a cautionary tale not to give a guy the third year?
An entire season seems a steep price to conduct an experiment on one player hoping he gives you a result he's never displayed on the field.
The Giants are chasing a myth in 2021 with Jones.
Like I said when the Jets very unexpectedly secured a second round pick for Darnold, we should have seriously considered trading Jones because I think we could have actually sniffed a first. Especially from the Bears, ironically, who were desperate to give up picks to find a QB.
So if Jones struggles this year, and somehow we actually decide to move on, the debate will once again be this - could we have found a better solution in this past draft than the upcoming draft? Because right now the QBs that were drafted last week look considerably better than the QBs in next year's class. By a considerable margin.
Granted, that could change. But I wouldn't bet on that right now.
Although Googs did raise a good point earlier that we could use those '22 picks to trade for a QB instead.
Quote:
In comment 15253183 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15253166 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
maybe you should do some writing for some of those sitcoms you mention.
You didn't start a thread celebrating how much more you enjoyed pregame shows (not games, just pregame shows) after OBJ was traded?
That's fiction?
I don't remember if I did. Why do you so clearly?
This has gone far enough, it's too contentious and dare I say crossed a line of nastiness that it's not really entertaining or productive.
I'm done with this.
I remember very clearly that you did. Because my immediate reaction was, "why TF would anyone care about enjoying pregame shows more after a player was traded?"
I'm happy to go find the thread if you'd like. I don't think there's anything nasty about that, do you?
Maybe we can answer it more quickly:
Did you enjoy pregame shows more after OBJ was traded?
Quote:
In comment 15252990 LeonBright45 said:
Quote:
In comment 15252866 Bear vs Shark said:
Quote:
Stop acting like everyone needs to share your opinion. You're coming hot at santacruzom who's been a great poster for a long time and never really fought with anyone -- simply because he doesn't share your opinion.
At the end of the day, EVERYONE - I'd bet even Go Terps - would want to see DJ become a great QB. The question right now is if he's on track to do so.
At worst, that question is up in the air. Coming in and pretending like anyone who questions whether Jones will actually be a good starter for NYG has a "bullshit opinion" is asinine.
Who TF put you in charge?? Fuck off "MOM"
Nobody put me in charge -- I'm just telling you that you sound like a homer, a crybaby, and a petulant little child. Feel free to continue making yourself look like a fool because people have the audacity to question if Daniel fucking Jones is going to end up being a franchise QB or not (as if that isn't a valid question to ask).
When you're the one sitting there acting like there's no argument at all *against* him being a franchise QB, you're the one living in fantasy land.
The argument doesn't hold water. The offensive line has been horrible and the receivers haven't been much better. The kid deserves a fair test and until he fails he deserves the benefit of the doubt.
Quote:
again, arguing with you is completely pointless. I’m not calling anyone an idiot for having a different opinion. But this is a message board, and I’m going to call out blatant bullshit when I see it. Such as conflating - which is what you do every single time.
Okay, kudos to you for not literally calling people idiots when their opinion differs from yours. You're just calling their opinions blatant bullshit, which is much better.
You can't converse with zealots. There is no point in trying.
Quote:
So then isn't Darnold a cautionary tale not to give a guy the third year?
An entire season seems a steep price to conduct an experiment on one player hoping he gives you a result he's never displayed on the field.
The Giants are chasing a myth in 2021 with Jones.
Like I said when the Jets very unexpectedly secured a second round pick for Darnold, we should have seriously considered trading Jones because I think we could have actually sniffed a first. Especially from the Bears, ironically, who were desperate to give up picks to find a QB.
So if Jones struggles this year, and somehow we actually decide to move on, the debate will once again be this - could we have found a better solution in this past draft than the upcoming draft? Because right now the QBs that were drafted last week look considerably better than the QBs in next year's class. By a considerable margin.
Granted, that could change. But I wouldn't bet on that right now.
Although Googs did raise a good point earlier that we could use those '22 picks to trade for a QB instead.
You want Jones gone before he has a chance to make you look stupid and his success will make the magnitude of the DG complaining look childish. Stop making such definitive statements on things you have no expertise or pertinent information on and you wont be forced into fitting everything that happens into a narrow narrative.
You have no access to the information necessary to make such strong statements.
Quote:
Jesus fucking Christ. You’d think he was bleeding internally the way he talks about that play. He got a bruise and got shot up so he could deal with it later. He was fine. Somehow these two things are comparable.
I wrote:
Quote:
But he (Fields) dug deep, managed the agony, and threw three more TD passes against Clemson (he finished with six) to lead OSU to a dominant W. That's being tough and still being productive...
The point being Field was able to keep playing, despite obviously being hurt, and still be productive. Let me write that word again - productive. And that's been my point all along - if you are hurt, but you can play and still be productive, than that still helps the team.
Jones was hurt but couldn't be productive.
And I know you are smart enough to get the point.
Yeah because they were two completely different level of injuries. In fact Fields wasn't even hurt. He was bruised, big difference.
That needs to be a coach's decision if your QB wants to gut it out. He probably thought he'd be more productive than what the backup could give. And he almost pulled him until DJ led the TD drive.
I'm not sure that anyone is saying this.
You know, that's a good point. Really in this thread the only people who are saying that are a bit, shall we say, uncivil. It's probably not reasonable to act like they represent any sort of majority.
Here is a stat I read today in NJ.com. In the first 10 games before suffering the hamstring injury, Jones averaged five rushes per game at a 7.8 yards per carry. In his final three games he played after the injury, Jones averaged 3.3 rushes and two yards per carry. So he was clearly incapable of using his best asset. And I think that hurt us in our attempt to win the division...
If running is his best asset, we are in a world of trouble. He's a good runner with very good straightline speed, but let's not make him out to be Lamar Jackson or Kyler Murray. If he can't make plays from the pocket, we will be looking for a new QB next year.
Quote:
Well, part of the Jones decision at the end of 2021 is going to have to include what does that QB crop look like for the 2022 Draft. Way too early for anybody to weigh in there.
There are other options than extending DJ or just drafting a QB. They can wait another year to make a heavier investment in a college prospect. But obviously that comes with the cost of waiting as other player contracts get a year older and the extra #1 is right now only for 2022.
They can also trade for an NFL QB and have lot of picks in their pocket to do it.
That's true about using the picks to possibly acquire another QB via trade - good point.
But not all draft classes are created equal. So just because the last few looked good we shouldn't assume the next class will look similar. Because right now it isn't shaping up to that attractive outside of Howell and maybe - maybe - Rattler.
Right now I feel confident that Slough will enter the conversation by November.
Quote:
In comment 15253129 Go Terps said:
Quote:
So then isn't Darnold a cautionary tale not to give a guy the third year?
An entire season seems a steep price to conduct an experiment on one player hoping he gives you a result he's never displayed on the field.
The Giants are chasing a myth in 2021 with Jones.
Like I said when the Jets very unexpectedly secured a second round pick for Darnold, we should have seriously considered trading Jones because I think we could have actually sniffed a first. Especially from the Bears, ironically, who were desperate to give up picks to find a QB.
So if Jones struggles this year, and somehow we actually decide to move on, the debate will once again be this - could we have found a better solution in this past draft than the upcoming draft? Because right now the QBs that were drafted last week look considerably better than the QBs in next year's class. By a considerable margin.
Granted, that could change. But I wouldn't bet on that right now.
Although Googs did raise a good point earlier that we could use those '22 picks to trade for a QB instead.
Absurdity. There is not a team in the NFL that would move on from Jones right now because of last year. None. Every team in the league would be giving Jones a third year based on his specific circumstance.
You want Jones gone before he has a chance to make you look stupid and his success will make the magnitude of the DG complaining look childish. Stop making such definitive statements on things you have no expertise or pertinent information on and you wont be forced into fitting everything that happens into a narrow narrative.
You have no access to the information necessary to make such strong statements.
You're the one making strong statements..."Every team in the league would be giving Jones a third year based on his specific circumstance."
You make that statement despite having no expertise.
Here's what we do know:
- Jones was perhaps the least productive college quarterback drafted in the first round in the past decade
- Jones has had a very low level of production in two years in the NFL
That's what we know, definitively.
Quote:
In comment 15253022 Bear vs Shark said:
Quote:
In comment 15252990 LeonBright45 said:
Quote:
In comment 15252866 Bear vs Shark said:
Quote:
Stop acting like everyone needs to share your opinion. You're coming hot at santacruzom who's been a great poster for a long time and never really fought with anyone -- simply because he doesn't share your opinion.
At the end of the day, EVERYONE - I'd bet even Go Terps - would want to see DJ become a great QB. The question right now is if he's on track to do so.
At worst, that question is up in the air. Coming in and pretending like anyone who questions whether Jones will actually be a good starter for NYG has a "bullshit opinion" is asinine.
Who TF put you in charge?? Fuck off "MOM"
Nobody put me in charge -- I'm just telling you that you sound like a homer, a crybaby, and a petulant little child. Feel free to continue making yourself look like a fool because people have the audacity to question if Daniel fucking Jones is going to end up being a franchise QB or not (as if that isn't a valid question to ask).
When you're the one sitting there acting like there's no argument at all *against* him being a franchise QB, you're the one living in fantasy land.
The argument doesn't hold water. The offensive line has been horrible and the receivers haven't been much better. The kid deserves a fair test and until he fails he deserves the benefit of the doubt.
So what you're saying is that any argument whatsoever that Jones has not shown enough to have conviction that he is the franchise QB is automatically null and void and holds no water?
It is very possible that Jones shows enough next year to earn him another year that does not satisfy some as good enough. We will all have different degrees there.
The camp that believes things are changing because Judge has new power, should trust in him if he continues to extend the Jones experiment. Or is it going to be good decisions are Judge's and anything they disagree with is a mandate from Mara or DG? That kind of reasoning makes me laugh out loud at my computer. It deserves no response from anyone. It is absurdity.
There's a ton of now-outdated posts on that thread (including a lot of salary cap arguments that I made that are not especially valid anymore since the Giants have changed their cap approach - although they were definitely valid that offseason), but what is clear as day is how refreshed you were about a pregame show.
Maybe if you didn't try to apply the same thoughtless cookie-cutter approach to defending the Giants and actually offered some genuine critical thinking, people would take you more seriously. But for whatever reason, you seem unwilling to do that.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 15253217 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15253129 Go Terps said:
Quote:
So then isn't Darnold a cautionary tale not to give a guy the third year?
An entire season seems a steep price to conduct an experiment on one player hoping he gives you a result he's never displayed on the field.
The Giants are chasing a myth in 2021 with Jones.
Like I said when the Jets very unexpectedly secured a second round pick for Darnold, we should have seriously considered trading Jones because I think we could have actually sniffed a first. Especially from the Bears, ironically, who were desperate to give up picks to find a QB.
So if Jones struggles this year, and somehow we actually decide to move on, the debate will once again be this - could we have found a better solution in this past draft than the upcoming draft? Because right now the QBs that were drafted last week look considerably better than the QBs in next year's class. By a considerable margin.
Granted, that could change. But I wouldn't bet on that right now.
Although Googs did raise a good point earlier that we could use those '22 picks to trade for a QB instead.
Absurdity. There is not a team in the NFL that would move on from Jones right now because of last year. None. Every team in the league would be giving Jones a third year based on his specific circumstance.
You want Jones gone before he has a chance to make you look stupid and his success will make the magnitude of the DG complaining look childish. Stop making such definitive statements on things you have no expertise or pertinent information on and you wont be forced into fitting everything that happens into a narrow narrative.
You have no access to the information necessary to make such strong statements.
You're the one making strong statements..."Every team in the league would be giving Jones a third year based on his specific circumstance."
You make that statement despite having no expertise.
Here's what we do know:
- Jones was perhaps the least productive college quarterback drafted in the first round in the past decade
- Jones has had a very low level of production in two years in the NFL
That's what we know, definitively.
The person with the most accurate and pertinent inside information on Jones is saying what? The guy with supposed power could have drafted Fields or Jones.
What did they do?
Ignore what they say.
What did they do?
They got him a weapon in the first round, not his replacement.
There's a ton of now-outdated posts on that thread (including a lot of salary cap arguments that I made that are not especially valid anymore since the Giants have changed their cap approach - although they were definitely valid that offseason), but what is clear as day is how refreshed you were about a pregame show.
Maybe if you didn't try to apply the same thoughtless cookie-cutter approach to defending the Giants and actually offered some genuine critical thinking, people would take you more seriously. But for whatever reason, you seem unwilling to do that.
Link - ( New Window )
Are you high right now?
There is literally one post by me on that thread about the pre-game show. I said I enjoyed watching Barkley break down film more than I liked OBJ's sitdown with little wayne.
And what does this have to do with anything?
You want Jones gone before he has a chance to make you look stupid and his success will make the magnitude of the DG complaining look childish. Stop making such definitive statements on things you have no expertise or pertinent information on and you wont be forced into fitting everything that happens into a narrow narrative.
You have no access to the information necessary to make such strong statements.
I absolutely have information. And that's the market dictating the value of Darnold. So he's now a very good proxy to Jones.
Darnold been equally as poor as Jones - if not worse - yet the Jets were able to grab a second rounder. So why on earth would it be unreasonable to conclude we could possibly get a first for Jones?
Just to be clear, in no way am I saying Jones would be worth that in my eyes. But there was information before the 2019 draft that teams did like Jones as a QB prospect. And now we know there was a very good market for Darnold, who, again, isn't any better than Jones...
- Jones was perhaps the least productive college quarterback drafted in the first round in the past decade
- Jones has had a very low level of production in two years in the NFL
That's what we know, definitively.
Let's look at QB's production:
QB 1: 60% completion rate, 8201 yds passing 52 TD's 29 INTS. 1,323 rushing yards
QB2: 56% completion rate, 5,066 yards 44TD's 21 INTs, 767 rushing yards
QB3: 65% completion rate, 7,229 yards 57 TD's 22 INTs, 332 rushing yards
QB4: 62% completion rate, 5,450 yards, 42 TD's 21 INT's, 369 yards rushing
Can you name who has the worst stats there and who each QB is??
Hint - QB4 was a Big 12 QB where defenses are non-existent....
Quote:
Here is a stat I read today in NJ.com. In the first 10 games before suffering the hamstring injury, Jones averaged five rushes per game at a 7.8 yards per carry. In his final three games he played after the injury, Jones averaged 3.3 rushes and two yards per carry. So he was clearly incapable of using his best asset. And I think that hurt us in our attempt to win the division...
If running is his best asset, we are in a world of trouble. He's a good runner with very good straightline speed, but let's not make him out to be Lamar Jackson or Kyler Murray. If he can't make plays from the pocket, we will be looking for a new QB next year.
I wasn't suggesting Jones is in the same universe as LJax nd Murray as a runner. I meant who was mobile and he had the ability to get out of the pocket and perhaps save plays.
And I agree, if Jones could be a pocket passer - or at least considerably better than he is now - were will be back in the market looking for another solution...
I don’t understand why this concept is so hard to grasp at BBI. I don’t know why all of a sudden BBI became the “quarterbacks must be good immediately!” Message board because it’s not realistic. Go root for the Chiefs if you think that way.
Our roster absolutely sucked when Jones was drafted. They have done a good job since that time acquiring talent around him to set him for success. Yeah - it’s on him to play well even when things aren’t going his way. But you can’t expect that immediately, it takes time. If he’s still not getting it done in year 3 and doesn’t elevate his teammates in year 3, it’ll be time to look at another solution.
This notion that “oh the giants are just HOPING he’s good.”…….yeah no fucking shit.
Leagues change. NBA the focus is on the 3 ball now; NHL speed and skill matter more than size and grinding; MLB is about launch angle, exit velo, spin rate, etc; and the NFL is about passing and QB play. Round 1 QBs may get redshirted a year, but otherwise they're going to be expected to hit the ground running. Every fan of teams that drafted QBs this year are going to be expecting them to be good right away.
College stats for every QB drafted in round 1 since 2011:
Quote:
but you sure did miller the heck out of it defending your position on enjoying pregame shows.
There's a ton of now-outdated posts on that thread (including a lot of salary cap arguments that I made that are not especially valid anymore since the Giants have changed their cap approach - although they were definitely valid that offseason), but what is clear as day is how refreshed you were about a pregame show.
Maybe if you didn't try to apply the same thoughtless cookie-cutter approach to defending the Giants and actually offered some genuine critical thinking, people would take you more seriously. But for whatever reason, you seem unwilling to do that.
Link - ( New Window )
Are you high right now?
There is literally one post by me on that thread about the pre-game show. I said I enjoyed watching Barkley break down film more than I liked OBJ's sitdown with little wayne.
And what does this have to do with anything?
We had a great offseason and draft. Admittedly the NFC east was a shit show last year. We were in it up until the end. I don't care why. There is no sure thing is this division.
We had a great FA period.
The draft is the most respected that I can ever remember.
BBI should be celebrating.
BW & Terps love Giants as much as Britt & FMiC.
They do.
They just express it differently.
The former hate the losing so much that they spend enormous amounts of time here venting about it. They hold those in charge accountable.
Britt & FMiC hate the losing just as much, they come here and blow up at the people attacking their guys instead of attacking management.
I see the same people, people that like the team more than they should.
We are all the same.
We want the Giants to win.
Badly.
Worth remembering.
I'm not sure your grasp of the word definitive is strong, nor does pulling out a table that doesn't even include rushing yards
I concede I didn't do the same exercise for rushing yards. I'd be all in favor of using him much more as a rushing threat...I think his speed in the open field is a really good asset. It wouldn't surprise me though if the Giants use him less as a runner after being spooked by his injuries.
I think that answer is no.
The question is whether he should?
His first year was good for a rookie.
Those that say no, say circumstances matter. Stats against bad teams.
You lose me when you now ignore circumstance for Covid, everything that happened because of it and his injury. OL was awful to start, when it finally played better the kid was injured.
Can we agree we don't know and we let this year play out and see what we really have?
Physical toughness is less important at QB than it was in the 80s and earlier. Tom Brady hates getting hit. That hasn’t stopped him from winning more Super Bowls than all other active QBs combined.
Quote:
In comment 15253256 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
but you sure did miller the heck out of it defending your position on enjoying pregame shows.
There's a ton of now-outdated posts on that thread (including a lot of salary cap arguments that I made that are not especially valid anymore since the Giants have changed their cap approach - although they were definitely valid that offseason), but what is clear as day is how refreshed you were about a pregame show.
Maybe if you didn't try to apply the same thoughtless cookie-cutter approach to defending the Giants and actually offered some genuine critical thinking, people would take you more seriously. But for whatever reason, you seem unwilling to do that.
Link - ( New Window )
Are you high right now?
There is literally one post by me on that thread about the pre-game show. I said I enjoyed watching Barkley break down film more than I liked OBJ's sitdown with little wayne.
And what does this have to do with anything?
They are attacking you instead of your argument it should be obvious why.
We had a great offseason and draft. Admittedly the NFC east was a shit show last year. We were in it up until the end. I don't care why. There is no sure thing is this division.
We had a great FA period.
The draft is the most respected that I can ever remember.
BBI should be celebrating.
BW & Terps love Giants as much as Britt & FMiC.
They do.
They just express it differently.
The former hate the losing so much that they spend enormous amounts of time here venting about it. They hold those in charge accountable.
Britt & FMiC hate the losing just as much, they come here and blow up at the people attacking their guys instead of attacking management.
I see the same people, people that like the team more than they should.
We are all the same.
We want the Giants to win.
Badly.
Worth remembering.
Couldn’t agree more, just because you are critical of the team or a player does not make you any less of a fan, in fact those who are so passionate probably are more critical because they demand excellence as they should.
With that being said, I think there is a lot of criticism that goes on here that ignores key facts. You can be critical, just don’t form an opinion in a vacuum and ignore key data points that run counter to your argument.
Quote:
So then isn't Darnold a cautionary tale not to give a guy the third year?
An entire season seems a steep price to conduct an experiment on one player hoping he gives you a result he's never displayed on the field.
The Giants are chasing a myth in 2021 with Jones.
What progress did Darnold retard on the Jets? They moved away from him after year three, actually got something in return and drafted his successor.
And Darnold is a starting QB still in the league
I think he means the Jets could have drafted Jordan Love instead of Becton in 2020 and been real contenders this year instead of wasting the 2020 season. They just needed the right trigger man to put the trash roster on their back and lead them to promised land. What could have been.
College stats aren't meaningless, but they are close to meaningless. College systems and competition have way more to do with results than the actual player. I mean hell, by that table, Haskins should be a better NFL quarterback than Andrew Luck.
It's a round about way of saying Mike Leach quarterbacks are under drafted.
That's why QB's like Haskins will look great with that stat in college. Why an OSU or Alabama or Clemson QB will look good, while a Wyoming or Duke QB won't. It also is impacted by the calibre of team and defense teams are facing.
There was a claim that Jones is "definitively" worse than the other 1st round QB and yet if somebody tells me something is definitive, I usually can't recite off several examples showing otherwise.
That's why QB's like Haskins will look great with that stat in college. Why an OSU or Alabama or Clemson QB will look good, while a Wyoming or Duke QB won't. It also is impacted by the calibre of team and defense teams are facing.
There was a claim that Jones is "definitively" worse than the other 1st round QB and yet if somebody tells me something is definitive, I usually can't recite off several examples showing otherwise.
This is what I said:
"Here's what we do know:
- Jones was perhaps the least productive college quarterback drafted in the first round in the past decade
- Jones has had a very low level of production in two years in the NFL
That's what we know, definitively."
Further, the chart is sorted by passer rating, not AY/A. There is a high correlation between the two.
If you don't like passer rating, you can try sorting by straight Y/A or TD pass %. Jones is last out of all 49 in both categories. The only metric where Jones isn't at or very close to the bottom is INT % (he ranks 28th).
Just say you think Jones sucks - using a chart that says Dwayne Haskins should have been better than Andrew Luck is completely pointless
The value propositions on fanhood and legitimacy are silly.
Guessing the outcome will be bad, because you believe the evidence points that way, doesn't make you a bad fan in my view.
The vultures who fly in, pick at others, and without positing a view and having skin in the debate are the turds in my view.
I believe the evidence isn't daunting against Jones. He's had very few games where he's been both healthy and productive. I am nervous that the key to unlocking his potential requires a really good offensive line.
Seems to me the Giants chose really good skill players, over really good lineman.
That's all I'm saying.
Conversely; a great quarterback can't always overcome deficiencies in their team; in the last Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes had a leaky offensive line and was battered and hurried by the Tampa Bay defense all day.
Not one statistic has been recorded for the 2021 season.
Also, not one statistic recorded prior to the 2021 NFL season will have an affect on how DJ plays in 2021.
No shutting down a debate or opinion, just pointing out that Giants fans will need to be rooting for Daniel Jones to succeed if they will also be rooting for the Giants to win football games.
College stats for every QB drafted in round 1 since 2011:
That's a great sheet, but quite a few QBs on there were drafted after round 1.
Conversely; a great quarterback can't always overcome deficiencies in their team; in the last Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes had a leaky offensive line and was battered and hurried by the Tampa Bay defense all day.
While of course, this is true.
But do you think a better strategy is to just settle with a lesser QB than you would like and extend him a longer term contract because Brad Johnson was able to win a ring?
God, the point is so obvious:
-Jones didn't have a very good collegiate career, certainly not elite
-Jones has not really had a very good NFL career so far either.
-Based on both of the above, there is reason for concern.
This isn't some "This chart here is a flaws predictor of which QBs are better than others!" thing.
Quote:
I've covered this already...
College stats for every QB drafted in round 1 since 2011:
That's a great sheet, but quite a few QBs on there were drafted after round 1.
Yeah I forget to mention on this thread (I created it a few weeks ago for another thread)...that list includes every first round quarterback and non-first round quarterbacks that have made significant contributions (or for whom the jury is still out). It goes back to 2011, which was when the recent CBA installing the rookie wage scale was put in place.
Quote:
he just has be good enough to guide the team there. In the last 20-25 years, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Nick Foles (split with Carson Wentz) were journeymen quarterbacks who managed to win Super Bowls, yet none of them were especially great or even particularly good. But they had great teams that were able to win.
Conversely; a great quarterback can't always overcome deficiencies in their team; in the last Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes had a leaky offensive line and was battered and hurried by the Tampa Bay defense all day.
While of course, this is true.
But do you think a better strategy is to just settle with a lesser QB than you would like and extend him a longer term contract because Brad Johnson was able to win a ring?
Actually I think Brad Johnson was better than Trent Dilfer! lol
Quote:
In comment 15253487 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
he just has be good enough to guide the team there. In the last 20-25 years, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Nick Foles (split with Carson Wentz) were journeymen quarterbacks who managed to win Super Bowls, yet none of them were especially great or even particularly good. But they had great teams that were able to win.
Conversely; a great quarterback can't always overcome deficiencies in their team; in the last Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes had a leaky offensive line and was battered and hurried by the Tampa Bay defense all day.
While of course, this is true.
But do you think a better strategy is to just settle with a lesser QB than you would like and extend him a longer term contract because Brad Johnson was able to win a ring?
Actually I think Brad Johnson was better than Trent Dilfer! lol
As do I. Was just being judicious in making the point without going overboard.
Conversely; a great quarterback can't always overcome deficiencies in their team; in the last Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes had a leaky offensive line and was battered and hurried by the Tampa Bay defense all day.
It's rare a great QB doesn't win a SB. So why settle for mediocre (Dilfer) or good (Brad Johnson, Nick Foles, etc)?
It requires too many other very good place to be in place to make the good or mediocre QB work.
- Jones was perhaps the least productive college quarterback drafted in the first round in the past decade
- Jones has had a very low level of production in two years in the NFL
That's what we know, definitively."
Again with the "definitively" part. Jones set several team rookie QB records and yet it is continually portrayed by you that he's not produced much. And it isn't an isolated comment. It is made on numerous threads. I wouldn't consider 24TD's in 2019 to be a "very low level" of production, yet you continually portray that season as if Jones was really bad.
Quote:
you can't use a chart that runs counterpoint to the entire point or argument that you are trying to make.
God, the point is so obvious:
-Jones didn't have a very good collegiate career, certainly not elite
-Jones has not really had a very good NFL career so far either.
-Based on both of the above, there is reason for concern.
This isn't some "This chart here is a flaws predictor of which QBs are better than others!" thing.
I think that in both cases you're looking at Jones in a vacuum and rendering judgment (albeit, not Judge's judgment).
God, the point is so obvious:
-Jones didn't have a very good collegiate career, certainly not elite
-Jones has not really had a very good NFL career so far either.
-Based on both of the above, there is reason for concern.
This isn't some "This chart here is a flaws predictor of which QBs are better than others!" thing.
I believe you are forgetting a very important predictor of NFL success - the Senior Bowl MVP. Which Jones was... ;)
The team was 3-9 in his starts and struggled to score points.
Then the problems we saw in '19 further manifested themselves in '20, where his stats (including TD passes) were dreadful.
"But he threw 24 TD passes..." is pretty weak, no?
Either he succeeds this season or not, and I think believing if he will or will not have valid arguments attached but no one can say for sure how it'll play out yet. We'll have a good idea about a quarter-way into the season.
Either he succeeds this season or not, and I think believing if he will or will not have valid arguments attached but no one can say for sure how it'll play out yet. We'll have a good idea about a quarter-way into the season.
This is true.
Almost every other QB he can be compared to played with at least someone who could help him. I would have said Darnold but he did have that at USC. I just wold like to see Jones play under optimal conditions like most other QB's get to do.
Quote:
was on a very, very poor Duke team. Lucky for him he was drafted onto an NFL team with very poor offensive talent and the only elite skill player injured both seasons. There has been a significant increase in skill position talent this season if they can stay healthy. He may feel less pressure to be the hero every play which can reduce turnovers. It's a team game and they have to feed off each other.
Either he succeeds this season or not, and I think believing if he will or will not have valid arguments attached but no one can say for sure how it'll play out yet. We'll have a good idea about a quarter-way into the season.
This is true.
Almost every other QB he can be compared to played with at least someone who could help him. I would have said Darnold but he did have that at USC. I just wold like to see Jones play under optimal conditions like most other QB's get to do.
You really think that MOST QBs get to play under optimal conditions?
Maybe that gets right to the crux of the issue.
Quote:
In comment 15253618 darren in pdx said:
Quote:
was on a very, very poor Duke team. Lucky for him he was drafted onto an NFL team with very poor offensive talent and the only elite skill player injured both seasons. There has been a significant increase in skill position talent this season if they can stay healthy. He may feel less pressure to be the hero every play which can reduce turnovers. It's a team game and they have to feed off each other.
Either he succeeds this season or not, and I think believing if he will or will not have valid arguments attached but no one can say for sure how it'll play out yet. We'll have a good idea about a quarter-way into the season.
This is true.
Almost every other QB he can be compared to played with at least someone who could help him. I would have said Darnold but he did have that at USC. I just wold like to see Jones play under optimal conditions like most other QB's get to do.
You really think that MOST QBs get to play under optimal conditions?
Maybe that gets right to the crux of the issue.
Let's say more so. I mean has he ever in his life had good protection and reliable receivers (college or pros)?
Jones was under tremendous pressure last year. NYG QBs were pressured just about 30% of the time in 2020, which was second worst in the NFL only to MINN.
Quote:
In comment 15253637 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15253618 darren in pdx said:
Quote:
was on a very, very poor Duke team. Lucky for him he was drafted onto an NFL team with very poor offensive talent and the only elite skill player injured both seasons. There has been a significant increase in skill position talent this season if they can stay healthy. He may feel less pressure to be the hero every play which can reduce turnovers. It's a team game and they have to feed off each other.
Either he succeeds this season or not, and I think believing if he will or will not have valid arguments attached but no one can say for sure how it'll play out yet. We'll have a good idea about a quarter-way into the season.
This is true.
Almost every other QB he can be compared to played with at least someone who could help him. I would have said Darnold but he did have that at USC. I just wold like to see Jones play under optimal conditions like most other QB's get to do.
You really think that MOST QBs get to play under optimal conditions?
Maybe that gets right to the crux of the issue.
Let's say more so. I mean has he ever in his life had good protection and reliable receivers (college or pros)?
I agree, this is the debate. He has never really had a great supporting cast, in college or with the Giants. So we're seeing a QB struggle, and we don't know if it's because he's not good or if it's because those around him are not good.
But we do know he hasn't succeeded in spite of his supporting cast, so that already carves the absolute top off of his ceiling.
Still, I'm not sure why you'd suggest that MOST quarterbacks get to operate under OPTIMAL conditions. The fact is that most don't get anything close to optimal. Most probably get better conditions than DJ has had, but then again, most also produce better than DJ has. So is he just a part? A cog in the wheel? Shouldn't the QB be the hub of the wheel and not just a cog?
We're going to find out a lot more about DJ's competence this season with far stronger weapons surrounding him. I hope he responds with a fantastic season and puts the debate to rest. But it's still an open question right now.
And, to answer the questions after that, you probably have to also ask "who *could* succeed?" I doubt most rookie QB could.
And, to answer the questions after that, you probably have to also ask "who *could* succeed?" I doubt most rookie QB could.
Tend to agree. Wonder why they put him in such a difficult environment like that, and then again in year 2.
Quote:
why is why I dispute anyone saying anything in absolutes.
And, to answer the questions after that, you probably have to also ask "who *could* succeed?" I doubt most rookie QB could.
Tend to agree. Wonder why they put him in such a difficult environment like that, and then again in year 2.
I would say that he was unfortunate enough to land on a turning aircraft carrier.
And, to answer the questions after that, you probably have to also ask "who *could* succeed?" I doubt most rookie QB could.
He wasn't a rookie last year, and he regressed. I'm not sure why "rookie QB" is your measuring stick, but I suppose it gives you a bit more leeway.
Actual rookies, who should have been just as challenged by the oddities of 2020, outplayed him on their respective teams. Back to the excuse game, I guess?
Quote:
Is there another player in the NFL under more pressure than Jones this year? Maybe Stafford?
Jones was under tremendous pressure last year. NYG QBs were pressured just about 30% of the time in 2020, which was second worst in the NFL only to MINN.
I mean pressure to perform...
(It’s not lost on me some of the folks bemoaning the situation Jones was put in are some of the same folks who claimed the talent was fine last offseason, but water, bridges, etc.)
So now let’s try and apportion some percentages of blame as to why Jones and the offense sucked. What is the split between the skill positions, the line, the unorthodox offseason, the injuries, and his talent.
I’d say:
50% limits in Jones’s talent
15% offensive line
15% skill positions
10% weird offseason
10% injuries
The team was 3-9 in his starts and struggled to score points.
Then the problems we saw in '19 further manifested themselves in '20, where his stats (including TD passes) were dreadful.
"But he threw 24 TD passes..." is pretty weak, no?
You just described Peyton Manning's, Eli Manning's, and Matt Stafford's rookie seasons to name a few. The thing about QB's that are taken really early in the first round is, they typically go to bad teams. This is just cherry picking stats to support your argument. Are you rooting for Jones this year?
However, I can't help but be concerned that he'll continue to turn the ball over, and that's not just a triviality.
Quote:
In Jones's rookie year he played 4 games where his passer rating was above league average. 8 where it was below league average. That doesn't capture the league leading 19 fumbles.
The team was 3-9 in his starts and struggled to score points.
Then the problems we saw in '19 further manifested themselves in '20, where his stats (including TD passes) were dreadful.
"But he threw 24 TD passes..." is pretty weak, no?
You just described Peyton Manning's, Eli Manning's, and Matt Stafford's rookie seasons to name a few. The thing about QB's that are taken really early in the first round is, they typically go to bad teams. This is just cherry picking stats to support your argument. Are you rooting for Jones this year?
Which of those threw 11 TDs in their second year?
The Giants know it too, they are hedging their bet with the 2022 draft capital. We’ll see. I’m all good giving Jones this year to perform as a high level QB. If he doesn’t, the Giants aren’t married to him and have plenty of assets.
It’s a good spot to be in.
Quote:
In comment 15253693 Bill L said:
Quote:
why is why I dispute anyone saying anything in absolutes.
And, to answer the questions after that, you probably have to also ask "who *could* succeed?" I doubt most rookie QB could.
Tend to agree. Wonder why they put him in such a difficult environment like that, and then again in year 2.
I would say that he was unfortunate enough to land on a turning aircraft carrier.
Odd that I haven't supported Getts more often since he built such a sturdy ship for his franchise's "Top Gun" to land on over the years.
What a plan, what vision...
I'm rooting for the Giants to win. I don't care who the quarterback is. Who and what any of us are rooting for is irrelevant, anyway.
Quote:
In comment 15253613 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In Jones's rookie year he played 4 games where his passer rating was above league average. 8 where it was below league average. That doesn't capture the league leading 19 fumbles.
The team was 3-9 in his starts and struggled to score points.
Then the problems we saw in '19 further manifested themselves in '20, where his stats (including TD passes) were dreadful.
"But he threw 24 TD passes..." is pretty weak, no?
You just described Peyton Manning's, Eli Manning's, and Matt Stafford's rookie seasons to name a few. The thing about QB's that are taken really early in the first round is, they typically go to bad teams. This is just cherry picking stats to support your argument. Are you rooting for Jones this year?
Which of those threw 11 TDs in their second year?
Well bringing it back to the original thread topic, he was clearly significantly banged up. In addition to that, lost his best weapon, the offensive line played horribly and it was a completely new offense in a shortened off-season.
The jury is absolutely still out and it is impossible to definitively say whether he is a good qb or bad. However I think it is fair to say there have been flashes which is typically what you want to see from young QB's in bad situations. This year will be telling.
Quote:
In comment 15253619 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Is there another player in the NFL under more pressure than Jones this year? Maybe Stafford?
Jones was under tremendous pressure last year. NYG QBs were pressured just about 30% of the time in 2020, which was second worst in the NFL only to MINN.
I mean pressure to perform...
I know. Just giving the balanced view that doesn't always come out clear in some of the other posters' rants...
:-)
Quote:
Are you rooting for Jones this year?
I'm rooting for the Giants to win. I don't care who the quarterback is. Who and what any of us are rooting for is irrelevant, anyway.
Irrelevant to the team actually being successful, sure. However, rooting for the QB of said team would essentially be synonymous with rooting for the team. QB does well, team is more likely to do well. Seems you would rather be right than the Giants be successful.
However, I can't help but be concerned that he'll continue to turn the ball over, and that's not just a triviality.
I'm still not sold on all of the constituent parts of this OL, but there is no dearth of skill players now who can score TDs if Jones can deliver the ball. If we don't score at least 24ppg with this group than Jones really is not the man.
Quote:
In comment 15253818 Gmen88 said:
Quote:
Are you rooting for Jones this year?
I'm rooting for the Giants to win. I don't care who the quarterback is. Who and what any of us are rooting for is irrelevant, anyway.
Irrelevant to the team actually being successful, sure. However, rooting for the QB of said team would essentially be synonymous with rooting for the team. QB does well, team is more likely to do well. Seems you would rather be right than the Giants be successful.
Whatever makes you feel better. I could just as easily argue that rooting for Jones to keep the job is anathema to rooting for the Giants to win. It has been to this point.
I don't really care what anyone is rooting for.
Quote:
In comment 15253831 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15253818 Gmen88 said:
Quote:
Are you rooting for Jones this year?
I'm rooting for the Giants to win. I don't care who the quarterback is. Who and what any of us are rooting for is irrelevant, anyway.
Irrelevant to the team actually being successful, sure. However, rooting for the QB of said team would essentially be synonymous with rooting for the team. QB does well, team is more likely to do well. Seems you would rather be right than the Giants be successful.
Whatever makes you feel better. I could just as easily argue that rooting for Jones to keep the job is anathema to rooting for the Giants to win. It has been to this point.
I don't really care what anyone is rooting for.
You couldn't, because it is impossible to say one way or another. I don't know the answer, but we will see.
Quote:
So many of BBI posters try to ignore the teams problems on
Offensive Line ( and it has been very "offensive") and on the receiving corps (ps silent).
Give the guy a chance to prove himself under normal conditions and with a decent OL and good receivers.
As for Joe Judge, I think he may make it. Time will tell.
Have a feeling a large number of those guys are the ones who never liked the pick in the first place and are still thinking about Josh Allen and what could have been. Subset of those guys could be those still mad at Gettleman choosing Barkley #2 overall, instead of choosing Eli’s successor. Might be wrong about that, but I’m guessing that’s where the some of that sentiment originates.
The funny aspect to this is that out of the top 3 QBs Allen was the least wanted QB from that year on this board.
It was Darnold, Rosen, then Allen
Quote:
In comment 15252182 TLong said:
Quote:
So many of BBI posters try to ignore the teams problems on
Offensive Line ( and it has been very "offensive") and on the receiving corps (ps silent).
Give the guy a chance to prove himself under normal conditions and with a decent OL and good receivers.
As for Joe Judge, I think he may make it. Time will tell.
Have a feeling a large number of those guys are the ones who never liked the pick in the first place and are still thinking about Josh Allen and what could have been. Subset of those guys could be those still mad at Gettleman choosing Barkley #2 overall, instead of choosing Eli’s successor. Might be wrong about that, but I’m guessing that’s where the some of that sentiment originates.
The funny aspect to this is that out of the top 3 QBs Allen was the least wanted QB from that year on this board.
It was Darnold, Rosen, then Allen
In fairness, we're not crowdsourcing our draft picks. We do expect that our front office has much more information and a slight better idea than we do.
And they passed on Allen. So that's not really a knock on the board, and it's kind of a knock on the front office. I know that wasn't your intent, but I don't think any of us is under the impression that they're choosing their draft picks based on BBI noise.
The Bills are the example of how a re-build gets done.
Quote:
The Buffalo Bills traded No. 1 wide receiver Sammy Watkins, starting left tackle Cordy Glenn and six draft picks to move into position to select quarterback Josh Allen out of Wyoming with the seventh overall pick of the 2018 NFL draft.
The Bills are the example of how a re-build gets done.
He was on KJZ late last week, and made the comment that he had build up the oline first (before getting Diggs) because without Allen upright it didn't matter what weapons he had to throw to
Quote:
In comment 15252198 BSIMatt said:
Quote:
In comment 15252182 TLong said:
Quote:
So many of BBI posters try to ignore the teams problems on
Offensive Line ( and it has been very "offensive") and on the receiving corps (ps silent).
Give the guy a chance to prove himself under normal conditions and with a decent OL and good receivers.
As for Joe Judge, I think he may make it. Time will tell.
Have a feeling a large number of those guys are the ones who never liked the pick in the first place and are still thinking about Josh Allen and what could have been. Subset of those guys could be those still mad at Gettleman choosing Barkley #2 overall, instead of choosing Eli’s successor. Might be wrong about that, but I’m guessing that’s where the some of that sentiment originates.
The funny aspect to this is that out of the top 3 QBs Allen was the least wanted QB from that year on this board.
It was Darnold, Rosen, then Allen
In fairness, we're not crowdsourcing our draft picks. We do expect that our front office has much more information and a slight better idea than we do.
And they passed on Allen. So that's not really a knock on the board, and it's kind of a knock on the front office. I know that wasn't your intent, but I don't think any of us is under the impression that they're choosing their draft picks based on BBI noise.
I agree, but I do think it illustrates some of the Monday morning QBing that we see on BBI
At least they are getting better at this now...
Professional managers get paid, and more importantly are responsible for other’s careers.
I want what Buffalo is having.
Quote:
In comment 15253256 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
but you sure did miller the heck out of it defending your position on enjoying pregame shows.
There's a ton of now-outdated posts on that thread (including a lot of salary cap arguments that I made that are not especially valid anymore since the Giants have changed their cap approach - although they were definitely valid that offseason), but what is clear as day is how refreshed you were about a pregame show.
Maybe if you didn't try to apply the same thoughtless cookie-cutter approach to defending the Giants and actually offered some genuine critical thinking, people would take you more seriously. But for whatever reason, you seem unwilling to do that.
Link - ( New Window )
Are you high right now?
There is literally one post by me on that thread about the pre-game show. I said I enjoyed watching Barkley break down film more than I liked OBJ's sitdown with little wayne.
And what does this have to do with anything?
They are attacking you instead of your argument it should be obvious why.
No, it's not obvious as to why. Who have I attacked personally? Do I argue about the football stuff a lot? Yeah, but very rarely do I get personal with anybody.
Now we're at the point of making up shit to attack me with.
I agree we are all Giants fans, and people can root for whatever they want as they wish, but this feels a lot more like right vs. wrong to me than sharing a common goal.
People accuse me of being overly loyal or a fan boy of any of the above, but I'm not. That should be apparent with how happy I was with the Jones pick. Now I want him to win.
I root for whoever is running the show and wearing the uniform, because their success means the Giants have success. It's not fun for me to root for failure. Sorry.
Britt you mentioned above your criteria for which posters to listen to and which to ignore. We all have criteria for that. Personally, I don't pay much mind to people who bend or overlook reality to make the Giants look better than they are.
"Why not us?" discussions that warp reality and apply different standards to the Giants than other teams make us all dumber. Understanding what is actually happening, and parsing out truth from bullshit...to me that's a better shared common goal than "Gee aren't the Giants awesome?"
Are you reading that anywhere? Because I know I haven't said either of those things in the past three years.
I like to look forward, that's how I operate as a fan. I think Jones needs to step up regardless of our offseason acquisitions, but in the same breath I can also say that he isn't elite so getting him help is a requirement. I also believe that getting him help isn't just a 2021 initiative, we needed more weapons anyway even if we replace Jones after 2021.
I don't see much value in taking hard stance either way - its a game of inches and nuance, no reason I can't view it that was as well as a spectator.
Did I not say that if Gettleman's roster doesn't produce this year he should be fired?
Seems to me you've distorted what my view is. I don't think Daniel Jones and the Giants are awesome, yay. That's the picture you're painting and it's not accurate at all.
Are you reading that anywhere? Because I know I haven't said either of those things in the past three years.
The Giants are doing everything in their power to make Daniel Jones look good to justify the pick.
That is bottom of the barrel stupid shit right there.
Can anyone point me to the team that says, "Fuck our QB, let's get him bad players so we have to draft another QB"
FFS
Stop making shit up.
That's because the Giants have been bad, and Jones has been poor. Can't make a definitive statement to the contrary. What has been offered instead is a lot of excuses and odd comparisons to other situations that don't apply (Eli, Simms, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, and a million other quarterbacks).
I don't know about right and wrong, but there is a reality. The reality is this season appears to be Jones's last chance.
Players that play well don't find themselves in last chance situations to prove themselves.
Do you remember watching Simms play his first I don’t know…7 seasons?
People have convenient and downright weird memories around here. Par for the course.
Oh wait, it was a different era so it doesn't count.
Me: Daniel Jones has shown ability in spots and with better help around him hopefully he can elevate his game and prove he can be our guy going forward.
You: Daniel Jones will never be anything more that a career backup in this league and nothing that can happen changes that. (You have actually said this).
Also you: Dave Gettleman and the Giants could go 18-0 next year, win the Superbowl, and he will still have been proven to have done a bad job (you actually also said this).
You don't realize how CRAZY that sounds?
Quote:
that is making definitive statements of what can be or cannot be.
That's because the Giants have been bad, and Jones has been poor. Can't make a definitive statement to the contrary. What has been offered instead is a lot of excuses and odd comparisons to other situations that don't apply (Eli, Simms, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, and a million other quarterbacks).
I don't know about right and wrong, but there is a reality. The reality is this season appears to be Jones's last chance.
Players that play well don't find themselves in last chance situations to prove themselves.
Don't forget Justin Herbert in the list of comparisons made.
Quote:
I think GT wants Jones to succeed, but doesn't think he will. That's a fair take that I don't necessarily disagree with. I think this fall is make or break for Jones.
That said, I had to laugh when GT said he would have drafted Herbert last year @ 4 after DJ's rookie season. That was LOL to me. And again, I respect GT opinions but I thought he was trolling @ that point.
Seriously? If given a mulligan you wouldn't draft Herbert? The Giants would - I'd bet a lot on that.
Dude, what the fuck does this have to do with anything? That draft was one year after Jones. Stop already with this horse shit. You gonna try and put the toothpaste back in the tube on every fucking post? Are you kidding me with this childish take?
If you're going to quote someone, get it right. That kind of thing happens way too often, and bullshit gets propagated as reality.
Which one is the more definitive statement?
That is going to help the offense, which also got much better. I know Daniel can make the throws. Did Daniel Jones' receivers get open at Duke?...No
How much separation did his receivers get last year?
Does that make decision making easy?
See where I am going?
The great Daniel Jones flaw in the now infamous Sy56' scouting report on Daniel Jones.
Decision making
People are going to say, "The light bulb went off for Daniel Jones in 2021 like it did with Josh Allen in 2020"
No, they got Allen, Diggs, and they got Jones actual targets.
I am not saying he is going to be great but it will be transformative. I predict 30+TDs and AY/A to be better than average.
Quote:
In comment 15253000 Scooter185 said:
Quote:
In comment 15252963 Dr. D said:
Quote:
In comment 15252951 Bear vs Shark said:
Quote:
They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".
That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?
And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.
But the NFL as a whole isn't going to be giving QBs that time to develop anymore, which is why these comparisons to Eli and Simms are silly. It's not a NYG thing, it's an NFL thing. Between rookie contracts/options and the confluence of the college and pro games, teams need their first round QB picks to be "the guy" by year three.
Unless changes are made to the CBA, what we saw with the Jets and Darnold is going to become the norm for teams that don't have "the guy"
I acknowledged that it's a different era, but considering the circumstances (e.g., Kevin Gilbride saying '21 "should be considered his 2nd year"), can we give him THIS FUCKING YEAR?
The Jets gave Darnold a 3rd year to prove himself! He failed and the Jets are moving on. That's all anyone's asking for. Jones 3rd year to prove himself.
Darnold hadn't even performed as well as Jones has his first 2 years (avg QBR low 40s vs. nearly 60). And though Darnold did have to deal with a new coach and offense, it wasn't during the fucking pandemic, preventing OTAs, preseason, etc.
So then isn't Darnold a cautionary tale not to give a guy the third year?
An entire season seems a steep price to conduct an experiment on one player hoping he gives you a result he's never displayed on the field.
The Giants are chasing a myth in 2021 with Jones.
Never displayed on the field?
Fucking stop dude.
Worst. Thread. Ever. Bravo.
I didn't know that Jones has never played well. Ever. NEVER.
Fucking trash.
I've said Jones isn't a good starting NFL quarterback. I've laid out numerous reasons for it: stats, scouting reports, video clips. The evidence that he isn't very good is plentiful and easy to find, because he hasn't been. It's not impossible that he'll be good; there's just no reason to believe he will based on what we've seen and what he's done in five years of high level football. The next time he plays really good football for a full season will be the first.
That's definitive, because it's a fact. I didn't have to make that up or put words in someone else's mouth.
The only other recent examples were Haskins and Rosen and much of that had to do with work ethic, attitude, and coach-ability. If Jones was drafted by Washington i'm willing to bet he'd still be their guy right now. Arizona is a bit of a wildcard given the Kingsbury/Murray connection.
Quote:
Is anybody else actually saying the Giants "are awesome" right now?
Are you reading that anywhere? Because I know I haven't said either of those things in the past three years.
Nope. typical BBI strawman nonsense. The motivation for the whining about this is obvious. If Daniel Jones has a very good year they look stupid. I have heard stuff as stupid as:
The Giants are doing everything in their power to make Daniel Jones look good to justify the pick.
That is bottom of the barrel stupid shit right there.
Can anyone point me to the team that says, "Fuck our QB, let's get him bad players so we have to draft another QB"
FFS
Extremism at its finest.
Strawman comments go both ways with posters. And how long do you think it would take to find bottom of the barrel stupid comments going the other direction?
Site is to talk Giants and lets fans debate. You aren't going to like what everybody posts so run your own self-filter as needed.
If you're going to quote someone, get it right. That kind of thing happens way too often, and bullshit gets propagated as reality.
You have to admit, that would still be a Mrs. Lincoln kind of perspective.
We have seen so many QBs progress over a longer timeline than 2 years, there's too many to count. Qbs that literally went from bad to heroic legends over a 12 month span. Guys that sucked for 2-3 years then turn out to be good or great. Too many to count. So save me the BS.
You don't know what Jones is or isn't capable of no matter how many times you torpedo a thread with this shit. You might be right. Odds are you WILL be right, but that doesn't mean you know fuck all about Jones or any other young QB in this league. And to sit here proclaiming anything so soon is just ridiculous. It's one thing to have concern or even go on record, but this is just pathetic.
Quote:
In comment 15254528 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Is anybody else actually saying the Giants "are awesome" right now?
Are you reading that anywhere? Because I know I haven't said either of those things in the past three years.
Nope. typical BBI strawman nonsense. The motivation for the whining about this is obvious. If Daniel Jones has a very good year they look stupid. I have heard stuff as stupid as:
The Giants are doing everything in their power to make Daniel Jones look good to justify the pick.
That is bottom of the barrel stupid shit right there.
Can anyone point me to the team that says, "Fuck our QB, let's get him bad players so we have to draft another QB"
FFS
Extremism at its finest.
Strawman comments go both ways with posters. And how long do you think it would take to find bottom of the barrel stupid comments going the other direction?
Site is to talk Giants and lets fans debate. You aren't going to like what everybody posts so run your own self-filter as needed.
Quote:
I said they could go undefeated and still be under .500 for these four years.
If you're going to quote someone, get it right. That kind of thing happens way too often, and bullshit gets propagated as reality.
You have to admit, that would still be a Mrs. Lincoln kind of perspective.
I didn't say that to say I'd complain about an undefeated season. The point was that the three years have been so bad that an undefeated season wouldn't even get us back to .500. Didn't think that needed explaining.
Would Jones be better with All Pro players at every position? Well, yeah, but is there a player in the NFL who wouldn’t? Has the talent with Jones been great? Well, we know that someone like Tate is long in the tooth and past his prime, sure, but he had a legit NFL career. Is Slayton an all world player? No, but he’s in the NFL. Our line hasn’t been good but even there, we do have AT, a top ten pick, Hernandez a top 2nd round pick. There’s talent on the offense, Barks the number 2, EE a first round pick, Shep, and on and on. Some of you act like Jones is out there playing with a bunch of guys from the neighborhood bar’s flag football league. He’s in the NFL and the guys he’s playing with are all among the very best football players in the country.
For the old timers, remember when we used to talk about LT in his first couple of years and how all he needed was a better defensive line and a better defensive backfield and full off season to get ready and he needed a few good linebackers to play with? Yeah, me neither. Great players make the players around them great. It’s not the other way around.
Now if Jones were taken in the third round we’d all be a lot more forgiving of his heretofore lack of greatness. But Jones was the 6th overall pick - there shouldn’t be a debate at this point with the sixth overall pick. Enough about the talent around him, it’s time for this guy to be the person on the Giants who is making the players around him better. It’s time to start winning some football games.
Same 5 posters? Echo chamber? Personal attacks?
You have got to be kidding. Look at this very thread and how easily I can flip those sad songs of yours around 180 degrees as to what occurs.
Counterpoint all you want. That's actually the behavior your seeing from everybody you may be losing patience with...
Fucking childish. That's what children do. You should be banned from a thread after doing this.
Fucking childish. That's what children do. You should be banned from a thread after doing this.
Reading comprehension.
Jones has never played a good full season of football in five years of college and pros.
Quote:
when people make shit up to prove something. Jones has never played well in the NFL? Never? He never threw four-five TD passes in a game? That win against Philly didn't happen last year? He didn't deliver a perfect dime to Engram in the first Philly game and play well enough that day? He didn't play well against Dallas week 17 in 21?
Fucking childish. That's what children do. You should be banned from a thread after doing this.
Reading comprehension.
Jones has never played a good full season of football in five years of college and pros.
Jones had a pretty good last season at Duke. 22 TD's and 9 INT's with 350 yards rushing and 3 TD's.
But even then, players on bad teams are going to have that kind of perception. You could say the exact same thing about Josh Allen prior to last year.
Surprisingly, you didn't.
Are you reading that anywhere? Because I know I haven't said either of those things in the past three years.
As we speak, some guy named Grizz is touting the roster is so strong and deep right now that we will be cutting nice players at LB, WR and CB; and is putting the Giants into a deep playoff run.
I think that sounds pretty "awesome"!
I've said Jones isn't a good starting NFL quarterback. I've laid out numerous reasons for it: stats, scouting reports, video clips. The evidence that he isn't very good is plentiful and easy to find, because he hasn't been. It's not impossible that he'll be good; there's just no reason to believe he will based on what we've seen and what he's done in five years of high level football. The next time he plays really good football for a full season will be the first.
That's definitive, because it's a fact. I didn't have to make that up or put words in someone else's mouth.
It's funny when Britt latches onto a single sentence.
If you try to do the same thing to him, he accuses you of being high.
Every team had to deal with Covid is too simple. Find an actual person that played QB in the NFL and ask them how easy it is for a second year QB to deal with a completely new offense and coach.
We know the answer right?
Then ask, take away his starting RB in week 2, and throw in an almost entirely new OL.
Harder.
OK, now ask that QB about doing THAT during covid with less practice than ever and remote learning that you had never experienced before.
Maybe DJ bombs, but stop the insanity, let this year play out and for heaven's sake get in the kid's corner for a minute or two.
Every team had to deal with Covid is too simple. Find an actual person that played QB in the NFL and ask them how easy it is for a second year QB to deal with a completely new offense and coach.
We know the answer right?
Then ask, take away his starting RB in week 2, and throw in an almost entirely new OL.
Harder.
OK, now ask that QB about doing THAT during covid with less practice than ever and remote learning that you had never experienced before.
Maybe DJ bombs, but stop the insanity, let this year play out and for heaven's sake get in the kid's corner for a minute or two.
I've said this before and I'll keep saying it: we can reasonably deduce that EITHER 2020 OR 2019 is going to ultimately be viewed as an outlier for DJ.
We just don't know which yet.
Fucking childish. That's what children do. You should be banned from a thread after doing this.
You're the only one throwing a tantrum djm...
Quote:
Even if we have another pandemic it will handled much better. I completely throw out 2020 for my Jones evaluation. What happened in 2020 was out this world. My take on Jones is based on growth over 2019. If you want to hold him to the fire for 2020. Have at it.
Every team had to deal with Covid is too simple. Find an actual person that played QB in the NFL and ask them how easy it is for a second year QB to deal with a completely new offense and coach.
We know the answer right?
Then ask, take away his starting RB in week 2, and throw in an almost entirely new OL.
Harder.
OK, now ask that QB about doing THAT during covid with less practice than ever and remote learning that you had never experienced before.
Maybe DJ bombs, but stop the insanity, let this year play out and for heaven's sake get in the kid's corner for a minute or two.
I've said this before and I'll keep saying it: we can reasonably deduce that EITHER 2020 OR 2019 is going to ultimately be viewed as an outlier for DJ.
We just don't know which yet.
Would Jones be better with All Pro players at every position? Well, yeah, but is there a player in the NFL who wouldn’t? Has the talent with Jones been great? Well, we know that someone like Tate is long in the tooth and past his prime, sure, but he had a legit NFL career. Is Slayton an all world player? No, but he’s in the NFL. Our line hasn’t been good but even there, we do have AT, a top ten pick, Hernandez a top 2nd round pick. There’s talent on the offense, Barks the number 2, EE a first round pick, Shep, and on and on. Some of you act like Jones is out there playing with a bunch of guys from the neighborhood bar’s flag football league. He’s in the NFL and the guys he’s playing with are all among the very best football players in the country.
For the old timers, remember when we used to talk about LT in his first couple of years and how all he needed was a better defensive line and a better defensive backfield and full off season to get ready and he needed a few good linebackers to play with? Yeah, me neither. Great players make the players around them great. It’s not the other way around.
Now if Jones were taken in the third round we’d all be a lot more forgiving of his heretofore lack of greatness. But Jones was the 6th overall pick - there shouldn’t be a debate at this point with the sixth overall pick. Enough about the talent around him, it’s time for this guy to be the person on the Giants who is making the players around him better. It’s time to start winning some football games.
Good write-up. I've been over a lot of that real estate myself.
It goes back to this - expectations. There is a loud, large faction on this board who don't think Jones should be a difference maker. He's just one piece of the puzzle and he's the one who needs to be dependent on others, not the other way around. For them, it doesn't matter if Jones was drafted #6 or in the 6th round. He's just 1/11th of the offense...
Would Jones be better with All Pro players at every position? Well, yeah, but is there a player in the NFL who wouldn’t? Has the talent with Jones been great? Well, we know that someone like Tate is long in the tooth and past his prime, sure, but he had a legit NFL career. Is Slayton an all world player? No, but he’s in the NFL. Our line hasn’t been good but even there, we do have AT, a top ten pick, Hernandez a top 2nd round pick. There’s talent on the offense, Barks the number 2, EE a first round pick, Shep, and on and on. Some of you act like Jones is out there playing with a bunch of guys from the neighborhood bar’s flag football league. He’s in the NFL and the guys he’s playing with are all among the very best football players in the country.
For the old timers, remember when we used to talk about LT in his first couple of years and how all he needed was a better defensive line and a better defensive backfield and full off season to get ready and he needed a few good linebackers to play with? Yeah, me neither. Great players make the players around them great. It’s not the other way around.
Now if Jones were taken in the third round we’d all be a lot more forgiving of his heretofore lack of greatness. But Jones was the 6th overall pick - there shouldn’t be a debate at this point with the sixth overall pick. Enough about the talent around him, it’s time for this guy to be the person on the Giants who is making the players around him better. It’s time to start winning some football games.
Great post. This is the point. Top ten drafted players lift the team around them, not vice versa. The issue here is that many of us hated the pick to begin with and the constant drumbeat that "we have to wait before we can have a learned opinion on the matter" is insufferable. I knew Shurmur was a bad hire eight seconds into his first press conference. And then I had to suffer thru two years of listening to his moronic points of view and the fans who defended him.
For many of us, we are now less than a year and counting from now until the end of the Daniel Jones era. Or so we hope. The reason for the debate is not whether he will be good or not. If he leads us to the playoffs this year it will be a dream come true and I will be the first to support him in getting extended. The debate is whether the Giants will continue to support him if he doesn't lead us to the playoffs and extend him based on some non-performance criteria like the kid's great character or the progress that he has made. And the excuse that I can see coming now is blaming the OL.
If the Giants don't make the playoffs, Gettleman should be fired and the Daniel Jones era should be over.
Every team had to deal with Covid is too simple. Find an actual person that played QB in the NFL and ask them how easy it is for a second year QB to deal with a completely new offense and coach.
We know the answer right?
Then ask, take away his starting RB in week 2, and throw in an almost entirely new OL.
Harder.
OK, now ask that QB about doing THAT during covid with less practice than ever and remote learning that you had never experienced before.
Maybe DJ bombs, but stop the insanity, let this year play out and for heaven's sake get in the kid's corner for a minute or two.
Some posters can separate rooting for the Giants to win and having cold hard opinions on players/coaches/GMs. Some cannot.
It's not insanity to do either.
Quote:
I haven't said "nothing that can happen can change this". Why make shit up?
I've said Jones isn't a good starting NFL quarterback. I've laid out numerous reasons for it: stats, scouting reports, video clips. The evidence that he isn't very good is plentiful and easy to find, because he hasn't been. It's not impossible that he'll be good; there's just no reason to believe he will based on what we've seen and what he's done in five years of high level football. The next time he plays really good football for a full season will be the first.
That's definitive, because it's a fact. I didn't have to make that up or put words in someone else's mouth.
It's funny when Britt latches onto a single sentence.
If you try to do the same thing to him, he accuses you of being high.
You were fucking high if you think any of your posts about me on this thread were actually true after you dug up the thread in question. They’re all above for anybody to read.
He isn't an elite QB, he needs help.
Unless our offensive line gets besieged with injuries, based on the talent we added, I expect at least a top 12 offense next year by year's end. Legit number 1 WR finally with some good depth, decent TE group, stud RB with decent backup(I think a lot more of Booker than most here apparently), and a competent OL that can run block, but doesn't pass block well. Would anyone be pounding the table to sign him to a second contract if he's Jacoby Brisset?
People are going to be very, very surprised on what the offense looks next year with Saquon coming back. It's going to force teams into man, which we now have WRs that get open, and because we have talent on outside, DJ is going to gash teams in pass game with long runs probably once or twice a game.
Quote:
I know we’ve all been over this, at least a thousand times. But the one argument that still irks me is the idea that Jones just needs more talent around him. This excuse, which he carries all the way through his professional *and* college career is to me the least convincing.
Would Jones be better with All Pro players at every position? Well, yeah, but is there a player in the NFL who wouldn’t? Has the talent with Jones been great? Well, we know that someone like Tate is long in the tooth and past his prime, sure, but he had a legit NFL career. Is Slayton an all world player? No, but he’s in the NFL. Our line hasn’t been good but even there, we do have AT, a top ten pick, Hernandez a top 2nd round pick. There’s talent on the offense, Barks the number 2, EE a first round pick, Shep, and on and on. Some of you act like Jones is out there playing with a bunch of guys from the neighborhood bar’s flag football league. He’s in the NFL and the guys he’s playing with are all among the very best football players in the country.
For the old timers, remember when we used to talk about LT in his first couple of years and how all he needed was a better defensive line and a better defensive backfield and full off season to get ready and he needed a few good linebackers to play with? Yeah, me neither. Great players make the players around them great. It’s not the other way around.
Now if Jones were taken in the third round we’d all be a lot more forgiving of his heretofore lack of greatness. But Jones was the 6th overall pick - there shouldn’t be a debate at this point with the sixth overall pick. Enough about the talent around him, it’s time for this guy to be the person on the Giants who is making the players around him better. It’s time to start winning some football games.
Good write-up. I've been over a lot of that real estate myself.
It goes back to this - expectations. There is a loud, large faction on this board who don't think Jones should be a difference maker. He's just one piece of the puzzle and he's the one who needs to be dependent on others, not the other way around. For them, it doesn't matter if Jones was drafted #6 or in the 6th round. He's just 1/11th of the offense...
Yes, I do give him a pass for 2020. Get your eraser.
It is fair.
Also fair.
Put up or shut the fuck up in 2021.
Time is up.
Quote:
when people make shit up to prove something. Jones has never played well in the NFL? Never? He never threw four-five TD passes in a game? That win against Philly didn't happen last year? He didn't deliver a perfect dime to Engram in the first Philly game and play well enough that day? He didn't play well against Dallas week 17 in 21?
Fucking childish. That's what children do. You should be banned from a thread after doing this.
You're the only one throwing a tantrum djm...
uhh...ok. Is that what calling out BS is called these days?
When an adult resorts to exaggerations I call that fucking horse shit. How's that sound?
I can assure you if he stinks that Judge will do everything in his power to not only not pay him, but find his replacement. Doing otherwise would completely contradict how he's managed this team from his very first day as a Giant.
Sure but we saw him clean up the fumbles, if that persists and getting weapons leads to the TD's he was able to produce, we will be onto something.
You can't have it all your way. He did some nice things his rookie year its just that the fumbles completely negated them.
He isn't an elite QB, he needs help.
I agree with this. The problem is the Giants don't. If his being the 6th pick overall didn't matter we'd be entering 2021 with Justin Fields as our quarterback.
If that were Andy Dalton or Ryan Fitzpatrick that threw 11 TDs in 2020 you think he'd be the quarterback again in 2021? No fucking way.
The only reason Jones is still the quarterback is that he was the 6th pick in the draft.
However, you are spot on. The skill positions have been filled. And if Jones can be who he is supposed to be the expectations should be at least 24ppg. Which would be very close to where we need to be...I hope.
Is that how you play this game? The Rookie year is indicative of a QBs career trajectory?
Simms doesn't count. Eli doesn't count. Tannenhill doesn't count. None of those dudes count. Josh Allen? Go fuck yourself, doesn't count. And he was better in year 2 anyway so it doesn't fit I guess. Many rookie QBs don't even play that first year? Fuck off, doesn't count.
Jones is who he is. Always will be. Thanks for playing.
Quote:
If that year was indicative of what Jones can be then we're definitely in need of a quarterback.
Sure but we saw him clean up the fumbles, if that persists and getting weapons leads to the TD's he was able to produce, we will be onto something.
You can't have it all your way. He did some nice things his rookie year its just that the fumbles completely negated them.
He did not clean up the fumbles. He fumbled 11 times, tied for the league lead.
There is nowhere near enough "certainty" he can be a difference maker.
That is what many of his critics on this thread are saying.
Never mind WHY he was a high pick in the first place. Also never mind that the Giants just cut a former 1st round DB named Baker before his second season even started.
Of course he's still here because he was a first round pick. He was picked high for a reason. The Giants still see those same reasons or attributes to this day and want to keep at this.
I know you're better than this. You just live for this shit.
Quote:
he was selected where he was and that should no longer matter when it comes to how we build the team. Whether he should be elevating lesser players or not couldn't be more irrelevant now. The team needed an upgrade and its reasonable to assume it should help Jones (or anyone else).
He isn't an elite QB, he needs help.
I agree with this. The problem is the Giants don't. If his being the 6th pick overall didn't matter we'd be entering 2021 with Justin Fields as our quarterback.
If that were Andy Dalton or Ryan Fitzpatrick that threw 11 TDs in 2020 you think he'd be the quarterback again in 2021? No fucking way.
The only reason Jones is still the quarterback is that he was the 6th pick in the draft.
This is exactly the right point. It is the Giants, not the fans, that cannot get over where he was drafted. We are simply praying that the team will not continue to make mistakes to support and defend drafting him at six.
How comforting!
NFL teams aren't going to recycle QB's every 2 years and despite what you think, they may actually have faith in Jones. Shocking, I know.
Quote:
In comment 15254673 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
he was selected where he was and that should no longer matter when it comes to how we build the team. Whether he should be elevating lesser players or not couldn't be more irrelevant now. The team needed an upgrade and its reasonable to assume it should help Jones (or anyone else).
He isn't an elite QB, he needs help.
I agree with this. The problem is the Giants don't. If his being the 6th pick overall didn't matter we'd be entering 2021 with Justin Fields as our quarterback.
If that were Andy Dalton or Ryan Fitzpatrick that threw 11 TDs in 2020 you think he'd be the quarterback again in 2021? No fucking way.
The only reason Jones is still the quarterback is that he was the 6th pick in the draft.
This is exactly the right point. It is the Giants, not the fans, that cannot get over where he was drafted. We are simply praying that the team will not continue to make mistakes to support and defend drafting him at six.
It's a stupid point.
He's not here because he was a first round pick. He's here because he possesses traits and talents that got him drafted in round 1.
If Jones was worse, or if he was acting like an asshole on and off the field, or if he was sleeping in practice or video sessions, he wouldn't be here anymore or he'd be a backup.
You know, like Haskins, the same player 90% of this place wanted instead of Jones. If Jones was acting like Haskins he'd be outta here too.
Keep making shit up.
have a good day.
Quote:
If that year was indicative of what Jones can be then we're definitely in need of a quarterback.
Is that how you play this game? The Rookie year is indicative of a QBs career trajectory?
Simms doesn't count. Eli doesn't count. Tannenhill doesn't count. None of those dudes count. Josh Allen? Go fuck yourself, doesn't count. And he was better in year 2 anyway so it doesn't fit I guess. Many rookie QBs don't even play that first year? Fuck off, doesn't count.
Jones is who he is. Always will be. Thanks for playing.
Plus Simms played pretty badly in college; he never played in a bowl game, completed less than half his throws, and threw more interceptions than college. Yet the Giants drafted him at no.7 overall.
Quote:
he was selected where he was and that should no longer matter when it comes to how we build the team. Whether he should be elevating lesser players or not couldn't be more irrelevant now. The team needed an upgrade and its reasonable to assume it should help Jones (or anyone else).
He isn't an elite QB, he needs help.
I agree with this. The problem is the Giants don't. If his being the 6th pick overall didn't matter we'd be entering 2021 with Justin Fields as our quarterback.
If that were Andy Dalton or Ryan Fitzpatrick that threw 11 TDs in 2020 you think he'd be the quarterback again in 2021? No fucking way.
The only reason Jones is still the quarterback is that he was the 6th pick in the draft.
That's not true. Or, at the very least it's a absolute statement unfounded and unsupported by anything.
You have no idea what their evaluation of Jones is based upon their knowledge of him, his practice, his performance, and the overall circumstances. You have absolutely know idea of what they believe is his potential (or lack), what he needs to do to improve, or, more importantly, whether or not he *can* improve.
It is simply a baseless statement. Unless, of course, you're willing to pony up their correspondence that states their rationale for keeping Jones.
However, you are spot on. The skill positions have been filled. And if Jones can be who he is supposed to be the expectations should be at least 24ppg. Which would be very close to where we need to be...I hope.
I don't feel comfortable putting a PPG on it just yet, until I see this team in action, although 24 seems reasonable. But I certainly get the feeling, with this defense and run game, we are going to milk clock decreasing the overall PPG. We saw them do the same thing last year to an extreme degree because the offense was so bad.
Points per drive, overall TD/TO ratio, and high red zone percentage are certain things I want to see much higher this year.
Quote:
In comment 15254579 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I haven't said "nothing that can happen can change this". Why make shit up?
I've said Jones isn't a good starting NFL quarterback. I've laid out numerous reasons for it: stats, scouting reports, video clips. The evidence that he isn't very good is plentiful and easy to find, because he hasn't been. It's not impossible that he'll be good; there's just no reason to believe he will based on what we've seen and what he's done in five years of high level football. The next time he plays really good football for a full season will be the first.
That's definitive, because it's a fact. I didn't have to make that up or put words in someone else's mouth.
It's funny when Britt latches onto a single sentence.
If you try to do the same thing to him, he accuses you of being high.
You were fucking high if you think any of your posts about me on this thread were actually true after you dug up the thread in question. They’re all above for anybody to read.
You have literally tacked on words and taken quotes out of context for the latter half of this thread, and I was "fucking high" when I actually linked the exact point that I was making about you. You want the Giants to be a Hallmark movie. I want them to win.
Quote:
In comment 15254679 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If that year was indicative of what Jones can be then we're definitely in need of a quarterback.
Is that how you play this game? The Rookie year is indicative of a QBs career trajectory?
Simms doesn't count. Eli doesn't count. Tannenhill doesn't count. None of those dudes count. Josh Allen? Go fuck yourself, doesn't count. And he was better in year 2 anyway so it doesn't fit I guess. Many rookie QBs don't even play that first year? Fuck off, doesn't count.
Jones is who he is. Always will be. Thanks for playing.
Plus Simms played pretty badly in college; he never played in a bowl game, completed less than half his throws, and threw more interceptions than touchdowns. Yet the Giants drafted him at no.7 overall.
I can assure you if he stinks that Judge will do everything in his power to not only not pay him, but find his replacement. Doing otherwise would completely contradict how he's managed this team from his very first day as a Giant.
This is why this thread has become a hotbed. Judge's comments suggest that he would rather play an injured tough kid who was in hindsight not ready to play, than to win with Colt McCoy who had just beaten the Seahawks. I think Judge is the best thing to happen to the Giants since George Young so I hope you are right.
NFL teams aren't going to recycle QB's every 2 years and despite what you think, they may actually have faith in Jones. Shocking, I know.
That would be shocking, based on the level of his play.
If they have faith in him, this isn't a "prove it year". He'd have already proven it.
People accuse me of being overly loyal or a fan boy of any of the above, but I'm not. That should be apparent with how happy I was with the Jones pick. Now I want him to win.
No one should ever question that you are a genuine Giants fan first and foremost. You've always rooted for the guy in the seat with a lot of passion. I rarely agree with you, but you're a really sincere fan.
Quote:
Asking him to BE the offense is something you can only expect elite veteran QBs to do.
There is nowhere near enough "certainty" he can be a difference maker.
That is what many of his critics on this thread are saying.
And why would you expect certainty being in his second year, in his second offense, with dog shit around him. It's completely unreasonable. I saw a QB who improved in ways that were definitely coaching points over the offseason and just needed reps to get the process a bit faster. That is why I said he "certainly" can be a difference-maker. Can be. His critics just point to stats, which are heavily influenced by what is going on around you.
NFL teams aren't going to recycle QB's every 2 years and despite what you think, they may actually have faith in Jones. Shocking, I know.
That's a fair question. But they sort of got themselves in a bind by giving up a second for Darnold. Suggesting - to me - that they were very high on Darnold as a solution.
On Fields, btw, I think he's gone to QB Hell in Chicago. That organization has not been good for a long, long time developing QBs under any HC. If Fields can overcome the history, he's going to be special...
Quote:
In comment 15254635 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
Even if we have another pandemic it will handled much better. I completely throw out 2020 for my Jones evaluation. What happened in 2020 was out this world. My take on Jones is based on growth over 2019. If you want to hold him to the fire for 2020. Have at it.
Every team had to deal with Covid is too simple. Find an actual person that played QB in the NFL and ask them how easy it is for a second year QB to deal with a completely new offense and coach.
We know the answer right?
Then ask, take away his starting RB in week 2, and throw in an almost entirely new OL.
Harder.
OK, now ask that QB about doing THAT during covid with less practice than ever and remote learning that you had never experienced before.
Maybe DJ bombs, but stop the insanity, let this year play out and for heaven's sake get in the kid's corner for a minute or two.
I've said this before and I'll keep saying it: we can reasonably deduce that EITHER 2020 OR 2019 is going to ultimately be viewed as an outlier for DJ.
We just don't know which yet.
One season had a pandemic, it is no stretch to point out which is the more likely outlier.
Except that other QBs didn't struggle due to the pandemic, including rookies, who one might reasonably assume would be exactly as impacted as a 2nd year player with a new offense.
And also except for the fact that the pandemic year might have actually been more consistent with DJ's collegiate career and the concerns that he carried into the NFL.
It was a step backward, even with the context of the pandemic, IMO.
Here's the thing: we don't have to decide which one was the outlier. History will.
DG would never cut bait on a player he drafted or signed (LOL yeah OK)
Giants will never move on from Eli. (they likely were prepared to in 2018 but they didn't like any of the QBs at 2)
Giants will never hire someone from outside the org. Judge says HI.
Now I am supposed to believe that the Giants are afraid of admitting that Jones was a mistake. Lovely. Another made up gem.
Quote:
In comment 15254675 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
Asking him to BE the offense is something you can only expect elite veteran QBs to do.
There is nowhere near enough "certainty" he can be a difference maker.
That is what many of his critics on this thread are saying.
And why would you expect certainty being in his second year, in his second offense, with dog shit around him. It's completely unreasonable. I saw a QB who improved in ways that were definitely coaching points over the offseason and just needed reps to get the process a bit faster. That is why I said he "certainly" can be a difference-maker. Can be. His critics just point to stats, which are heavily influenced by what is going on around you.
Yes agree, although his critics don't just point to stats. I support his 3rd year but have seen plenty of non-stat reasons on Sundays to be very concerned.
Those words are a bit too close I guess...
Quote:
he traded for Darnold who's uninspiring to put it mildly. Isn't Fields a huge upgrade for them or no?
NFL teams aren't going to recycle QB's every 2 years and despite what you think, they may actually have faith in Jones. Shocking, I know.
That would be shocking, based on the level of his play.
If they have faith in him, this isn't a "prove it year". He'd have already proven it.
Yeah we all get it, haha, good lord. Take it up with Judge then, I don't really know what else to say anymore. Everything about Jones stinks, 2021 is going to stink, we are going to then sign him to a $200m contract I on top of it.
Lets all just join in on the stink, its all the rage apparently.
Quote:
he traded for Darnold who's uninspiring to put it mildly. Isn't Fields a huge upgrade for them or no?
NFL teams aren't going to recycle QB's every 2 years and despite what you think, they may actually have faith in Jones. Shocking, I know.
That's a fair question. But they sort of got themselves in a bind by giving up a second for Darnold. Suggesting - to me - that they were very high on Darnold as a solution.
On Fields, btw, I think he's gone to QB Hell in Chicago. That organization has not been good for a long, long time developing QBs under any HC. If Fields can overcome the history, he's going to be special...
Unless he was never special to begin with. That's unanswerable. But, in a weird way, it brings us back to the exact same argument we are having here about Jones.
Quote:
In comment 15254692 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15254675 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
Asking him to BE the offense is something you can only expect elite veteran QBs to do.
There is nowhere near enough "certainty" he can be a difference maker.
That is what many of his critics on this thread are saying.
And why would you expect certainty being in his second year, in his second offense, with dog shit around him. It's completely unreasonable. I saw a QB who improved in ways that were definitely coaching points over the offseason and just needed reps to get the process a bit faster. That is why I said he "certainly" can be a difference-maker. Can be. His critics just point to stats, which are heavily influenced by what is going on around you.
Yes agree, although his critics don't just point to stats. I support his 3rd year but have seen plenty of non-stat reasons on Sundays to be very concerned.
Those words are a bit too close I guess...
I think that you are on the side almost everyone else is. They support his third year, see some reasons for concern, and that this is when he has to put up or be gone. Other than GT and, maybe bw(?), virtually everyone else is on the same page.
So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?
So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?
I don't believe for one second the boys at One Giants Way gave consideration to any of these QBs (unless, of course, a miracle happened and TL fell...)
And that is troubling to me because Fields is so much more advanced and physically more gifted than Jones at this same point in their draft process. I don't even think it's particularly close.
Terps and I kicked this around a few times pre-draft and wondered what we would do if Fields fell to #11. Both of us sort of felt that was likely not going to happen, but it should be a no-brainer move...
Well, as the draft gods would have it, we had the opportunity.
Right now, IMV, outside of maybe Sam Howell, who I really like, Fields is better than ANY QB prospect in the '22 pool. Pretty comfortably too...
Quote:
In comment 15254638 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15254635 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
Even if we have another pandemic it will handled much better. I completely throw out 2020 for my Jones evaluation. What happened in 2020 was out this world. My take on Jones is based on growth over 2019. If you want to hold him to the fire for 2020. Have at it.
Every team had to deal with Covid is too simple. Find an actual person that played QB in the NFL and ask them how easy it is for a second year QB to deal with a completely new offense and coach.
We know the answer right?
Then ask, take away his starting RB in week 2, and throw in an almost entirely new OL.
Harder.
OK, now ask that QB about doing THAT during covid with less practice than ever and remote learning that you had never experienced before.
Maybe DJ bombs, but stop the insanity, let this year play out and for heaven's sake get in the kid's corner for a minute or two.
I've said this before and I'll keep saying it: we can reasonably deduce that EITHER 2020 OR 2019 is going to ultimately be viewed as an outlier for DJ.
We just don't know which yet.
One season had a pandemic, it is no stretch to point out which is the more likely outlier.
Except that other QBs didn't struggle due to the pandemic, including rookies, who one might reasonably assume would be exactly as impacted as a 2nd year player with a new offense.
And also except for the fact that the pandemic year might have actually been more consistent with DJ's collegiate career and the concerns that he carried into the NFL.
It was a step backward, even with the context of the pandemic, IMO.
Here's the thing: we don't have to decide which one was the outlier. History will.
I felt it was time for an upgrade. So we're in the test marketing phase... ;)
So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?
I'm very curious on how the Giants rated the QBs vs the 2019 grade on Jones. They obviously would have taken Lawrence. And obviously they did pass on Fields/Jones. Would they have picked Wilson? Lance?
I'm actually more curious on how NYG operates more than anything Daniel Jones specific.
Quote:
that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).
So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?
I don't believe for one second the boys at One Giants Way gave consideration to any of these QBs (unless, of course, a miracle happened and TL fell...)
And that is troubling to me because Fields is so much more advanced and physically more gifted than Jones at this same point in their draft process. I don't even think it's particularly close.
Terps and I kicked this around a few times pre-draft and wondered what we would do if Fields fell to #11. Both of us sort of felt that was likely not going to happen, but it should be a no-brainer move...
Well, as the draft gods would have it, we had the opportunity.
Right now, IMV, outside of maybe Sam Howell, who I really like, Fields is better than ANY QB prospect in the '22 pool. Pretty comfortably too...
Quote:
that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).
So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?
I'm very curious on how the Giants rated the QBs vs the 2019 grade on Jones. They obviously would have taken Lawrence. And obviously they did pass on Fields/Jones. Would they have picked Wilson? Lance?
I'm actually more curious on how NYG operates more than anything Daniel Jones specific.
I'm not even sure they would have taken Lawrence.
Quote:
the new "Jints Central"?
I felt it was time for an upgrade. So we're in the test marketing phase... ;)
tbh, I was shocked you didn't upgrade to LWilliam$.
Quote:
In comment 15254759 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).
So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?
I'm very curious on how the Giants rated the QBs vs the 2019 grade on Jones. They obviously would have taken Lawrence. And obviously they did pass on Fields/Jones. Would they have picked Wilson? Lance?
I'm actually more curious on how NYG operates more than anything Daniel Jones specific.
I'm not even sure they would have taken Lawrence.
Again, do you have data to support that?
Quote:
In comment 15254759 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).
So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?
I'm very curious on how the Giants rated the QBs vs the 2019 grade on Jones. They obviously would have taken Lawrence. And obviously they did pass on Fields/Jones. Would they have picked Wilson? Lance?
I'm actually more curious on how NYG operates more than anything Daniel Jones specific.
I'm not even sure they would have taken Lawrence.
How do you reconcile your view that Joe Judge doesn't believe in Jones and your view that Lawrence wouldn't be picked if they had #1? Those seem incongruent to me?
I'd add, I think DG would have been canned if we picked #1.
It's going to be very interesting to see how Nagy can work with Fields. He somehow figured out how to win with Trubisky, but Trubisky just flattened out with his growth. But I don't feel good about Fields in Chicago...
I didn't saying anything about Mara and mandates. The message was pretty clear - the brass feel Daniel Jones is clearly a better QB solution than Fields.
If Field develops, and Jones stumbles this year, we are going to have to Fields to the basket of QBs we could have had instead of Jones.
Atlanta, Carolina, Denver, Philly (they even traded up and took someone else) all have major questions at QB. All chose a different route. Maybe Fields ends up being great, and they will all regret it, or maybe not. But its pretty clear that it isn't just the Giants that operate this way.
Shouldn't the Broncos of all teams be salivating at the opportunity to finally upgrade at QB? What has Lock done to instill any confidence?
also, among Joneses...D v M?
tbh, I was shocked you didn't upgrade to LWilliam$.
That's very good. I'm very disappointed our marketing department missed that.
Quote:
In comment 15254791 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 15254759 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).
So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?
I'm very curious on how the Giants rated the QBs vs the 2019 grade on Jones. They obviously would have taken Lawrence. And obviously they did pass on Fields/Jones. Would they have picked Wilson? Lance?
I'm actually more curious on how NYG operates more than anything Daniel Jones specific.
I'm not even sure they would have taken Lawrence.
Again, do you have data to support that?
It's just a guess. They seem hell bent on making it work with Jones.
Quote:
In comment 15254801 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15254791 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 15254759 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).
So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?
I'm very curious on how the Giants rated the QBs vs the 2019 grade on Jones. They obviously would have taken Lawrence. And obviously they did pass on Fields/Jones. Would they have picked Wilson? Lance?
I'm actually more curious on how NYG operates more than anything Daniel Jones specific.
I'm not even sure they would have taken Lawrence.
Again, do you have data to support that?
It's just a guess. They seem hell bent on making it work with Jones.
That's very unusual for a team to want to do that with its QB.
I think it's improved, but Gettleman is still in the building and still very invested in Jones. I don't believe that his and Judge's agendas are perfectly aligned here. But none of us can know that for sure.
Quote:
In comment 15254806 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15254801 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15254791 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 15254759 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).
So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?
I'm very curious on how the Giants rated the QBs vs the 2019 grade on Jones. They obviously would have taken Lawrence. And obviously they did pass on Fields/Jones. Would they have picked Wilson? Lance?
I'm actually more curious on how NYG operates more than anything Daniel Jones specific.
I'm not even sure they would have taken Lawrence.
Again, do you have data to support that?
It's just a guess. They seem hell bent on making it work with Jones.
That's very unusual for a team to want to do that with its QB.
For a QB performing as poorly as Jones? Yeah it kind of is.
Quote:
that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).
So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?
I don't believe for one second the boys at One Giants Way gave consideration to any of these QBs (unless, of course, a miracle happened and TL fell...)
And that is troubling to me because Fields is so much more advanced and physically more gifted than Jones at this same point in their draft process. I don't even think it's particularly close.
Terps and I kicked this around a few times pre-draft and wondered what we would do if Fields fell to #11. Both of us sort of felt that was likely not going to happen, but it should be a no-brainer move...
Well, as the draft gods would have it, we had the opportunity.
Right now, IMV, outside of maybe Sam Howell, who I really like, Fields is better than ANY QB prospect in the '22 pool. Pretty comfortably too...
Considering you also had Ryan Finley and Drew Lock as being really good QB prospects coming out, I'm not sure you really have much of a right to post things as if anything is comfortable. Fields will get a chance to prove he can play - so the answer will be clearly seen in the years to come.
Most NFL teams give their players time to develop. QB's especially. But the Giants going with Jones in year 3 is them being "hell bent" to make it work.
Again - just a fucking ridiculous take in a year where you've made so many of them.
Quote:
Either you believe the process has improved or not. If the Giants had the first pick in the draft, they would have picked Lawrence. Plenty of QB needy teams passed on Fields.
Atlanta, Carolina, Denver, Philly (they even traded up and took someone else) all have major questions at QB. All chose a different route. Maybe Fields ends up being great, and they will all regret it, or maybe not. But its pretty clear that it isn't just the Giants that operate this way.
Shouldn't the Broncos of all teams be salivating at the opportunity to finally upgrade at QB? What has Lock done to instill any confidence?
Drew Lock has beaten winning teams (Texans 12/8/19, Dolphins 11/22/20). Something Daniel Jones has yet to do. The only stat that matters is W/L% - DJ must lead our team to wins against good opponents and then compete in the playoffs. No improvement in individual stats is relevant to any future extension consideration unless the Giants are beating good teams and reaching the playoffs under DJ's stewardship in 2021.
- They hugely overpaid Golladay
- They passed on drafting Fields, a legit high end prospect that fell to them unexpectedly
So yeah, I'd say they're hell bent on giving Jones every chance to prove he doesn't suck as much as he's shown in years 1 & 2.
See where i'm going with this?
- They hugely overpaid Golladay
- They passed on drafting Fields, a legit high end prospect that fell to them unexpectedly
So yeah, I'd say they're hell bent on giving Jones every chance to prove he doesn't suck as much as he's shown in years 1 & 2.
Tell me about Detroit. They have a failed QB and a situation where Fields would be an upgrade.
Tell me about Philadelphia. They had a golden opportunity to trade ahead of us and take Fields.
And jeepers, tell me about Denver....
Why didn't the Browns or Bills bring in backups after Baker and Allen's first two seasons? Why doesn't Arizona have a decent backup? why didn't the Rams backup Goff if they were dissatisfied?
Who exactly are these teams that are trying to create a QB competition?
Exaggeration seems to be a mainstay here. We "hugely overpaid" Golladay too?
Yes agree, although his critics don't just point to stats. I support his 3rd year but have seen plenty of non-stat reasons on Sundays to be very concerned.
Those words are a bit too close I guess...
I think that you are on the side almost everyone else is. They support his third year, see some reasons for concern, and that this is when he has to put up or be gone. Other than GT and, maybe bw(?), virtually everyone else is on the same page.
Sides...whatever. Huge concerns on DJ, but yeah I support him moreso to let it run its course in year 3. Not a big issue as there is no Lombardi coming this season anyway. If he succeeds and he looks the part, then all the better.
And at least it gave that moron GM (thru the obvious help of JJ) another offseason to fix the shitty roster he put together and stuck Jones with anyway.
Why didn't the Browns or Bills bring in backups after Baker and Allen's first two seasons? Why doesn't Arizona have a decent backup? why didn't the Rams backup Goff if they were dissatisfied?
Who exactly are these teams that are trying to create a QB competition?
Exaggeration seems to be a mainstay here. We "hugely overpaid" Golladay too?
Wouldn't AZ support GT's point (Murray for Rosen)?
Quote:
the new "Jints Central"?
I felt it was time for an upgrade. So we're in the test marketing phase... ;)
See, you can do to pithy...
Haskins was dumped too, and that was almost exclusively due to his character and work ethic.
Considering you also had Ryan Finley and Drew Lock as being really good QB prospects coming out, I'm not sure you really have much of a right to post things as if anything is comfortable. Fields will get a chance to prove he can play - so the answer will be clearly seen in the years to come.
Indeed, Finley has been horrible. But I still like Lock and am curious to see how he does if Denver doesn't trade for Rodgers.
But evaluating QBs is very difficult. On the other hand, since you are keeping score, I was pretty spot on with Allen and Herbert. And said Haskins was not going to work in the NFL.
Regardless, I stand by my Fields view and challenge anyone to say he's not a better prospect at this point than Jones was. I believe Sy graded Fields higher than Jones...
So then it comes to how much of a difference does it take to jump ship after 2 years.
Giants coach Joe Judge said most other NFL players would have missed more than only two games.
“Look, Daniel is the last guy that’s going to use anything as an excuse,” Judge, who rarely talks about injuries, told The Michael Kay Show on Monday. What I would say about the injury last year is it was much more serious than maybe people thought on the outside. I would say probably 90 percent of players in the league who would have had that injury, including quarterbacks, would have been on IR for the remainder of the year.
That’s just the reality of it. It was much more severe than maybe he allowed people to know or the information that was put out there, and we’re going to protect our players by not disclosing everything about their injuries to be honest with you. He fought through a lot of things. He earned a lot of people’s respect.”
So then it comes to how much of a difference does it take to jump ship after 2 years.
Here's my angle here - Garrett. Fields is a more athletic Dak. So if you give him a better version of Dak - and Garrett did excellent work with Dak - things could be very interesting...
If you don't think Jones can EVER do this or that, that is a fair belief, but perhaps not one that is going to move any conversation forward, because the soonest it's going to be addressed won't be until next offseason anyway.
Wish we could just put all this bullshit behind us since what's done is done and now they have to play the games. Perhaps all of this other stuff can be revisited once the dust has settled in 2022.
Quote:
but it doesn't seem like its a big enough difference like Lawrence to Jones would be. Lawrence is a much better prospect than Fields, IMO.
So then it comes to how much of a difference does it take to jump ship after 2 years.
Here's my angle here - Garrett. Fields is a more athletic Dak. So if you give him a better version of Dak - and Garrett did excellent work with Dak - things could be very interesting...
Personally i'm not doing anything for Jason Garrett - sink or swim time for him too. I think the Giants know he's gone after this year either by choice (HC offer if the Giants play well) or by being fired.
Giants coach Joe Judge said most other NFL players would have missed more than only two games.
“Look, Daniel is the last guy that’s going to use anything as an excuse,” Judge, who rarely talks about injuries, told The Michael Kay Show on Monday. What I would say about the injury last year is it was much more serious than maybe people thought on the outside. I would say probably 90 percent of players in the league who would have had that injury, including quarterbacks, would have been on IR for the remainder of the year.
That’s just the reality of it. It was much more severe than maybe he allowed people to know or the information that was put out there, and we’re going to protect our players by not disclosing everything about their injuries to be honest with you. He fought through a lot of things. He earned a lot of people’s respect.”
Already discussed. Look above for comments Nobody questioning DJs toughness although decision to play him was questioned by a few.
Additional thoughts?
If you don't think Jones can EVER do this or that, that is a fair belief, but perhaps not one that is going to move any conversation forward, because the soonest it's going to be addressed won't be until next offseason anyway.
Wish we could just put all this bullshit behind us since what's done is done and now they have to play the games. Perhaps all of this other stuff can be revisited once the dust has settled in 2022.
If you want common ground you could probably start by not assigning made up quotes to posters with whom you disagree.
If you don't think Jones can EVER do this or that, that is a fair belief, but perhaps not one that is going to move any conversation forward, because the soonest it's going to be addressed won't be until next offseason anyway.
Wish we could just put all this bullshit behind us since what's done is done and now they have to play the games. Perhaps all of this other stuff can be revisited once the dust has settled in 2022.
They have painted themselves into a corner. If Jones breaks out, it is going to be brutal for them here. If the Giants move on from Jones before he has the chance to shine, it preserves their narrative. I don't want to jinx it, but I figure Jones has a chance to win me a fantasy league or 2.
I think his AY/A is going to shock those that use that metric to criticize him and they will be unable to not give him credit. The big play potential of the players that have been brought in and those that have returned from injury are going to augment his stats in a very positive way.
YAC boosts the shit out of AY/A as do TDs. We got him some wonderful red zone targets and a human joystick. Big plays in 2021.
Quote:
I just wish some common ground could be found so that we can all look forward to, and talk about the upcoming season positively. Critical is fine, but leave the door open to talk about the positives as well.
If you don't think Jones can EVER do this or that, that is a fair belief, but perhaps not one that is going to move any conversation forward, because the soonest it's going to be addressed won't be until next offseason anyway.
Wish we could just put all this bullshit behind us since what's done is done and now they have to play the games. Perhaps all of this other stuff can be revisited once the dust has settled in 2022.
I am very critical of the team but once I am past the decision it is time to deal with reality. I think we all agree we had a good draft. The people giving the credit to Judge are the same people saying we should have moved on from Jones. Judge is clearly in Jones corner or he would have drafted Fields or Mac. That just is what it is.
They have painted themselves into a corner. If Jones breaks out, it is going to be brutal for them here. If the Giants move on from Jones before he has the chance to shine, it preserves their narrative. I don't want to jinx it, but I figure Jones has a chance to win me a fantasy league or 2.
I think his AY/A is going to shock those that use that metric to criticize him and they will be unable to not give him credit. The big play potential of the players that have been brought in and those that have returned from injury are going to augment his stats in a very positive way.
YAC boosts the shit out of AY/A as do TDs. We got him some wonderful red zone targets and a human joystick. Big plays in 2021.
To be fair, using AY/A to criticize any QB exposes the poster's ignorance. You made a great point about how having more weapons will almost assuredly lead to AY/A.
And that's because actual football people use it as a measure of offensive efficiency, not a QB measurement. Go Terps tries to use it as a "AHA" moment, but all it does is pull make one more layer of the onion covering up his bias and agenda (which isn't well covered to begin with)
Darnold's actually had a worse career than Jones (an avg QBR of low 40s vs. nearly 60 for Jones), as well as a third season (to prove or not prove himself), which is all most of Jones' defenders are asking for.
You said that Daniel Jones wouldn't be more than a career backup.
You said that Dave Gettleman could go 18-0 and win the Superbowl and you would still consider it a bad job.
If I didn't get it EXACTLY right, then my bad. But you said some semblance of both of those statements. I don't know why you're pivoting on it now. If you want to say it was out of context, fine. But do you deny saying either of those things?
I'm just going to use "wins".
I don't think even his detractors would say that Jones held the team back in these past 2 years. He might not have uplifted them, but they would not have won much with pretty much anyone at QB.
The roster is now set up so that we may be able to say that they if they do not win, Jones is holding them back. It's possible, but I really doubt it, that they will win and we will know that it was "in spite of Jones".
I'm just going to use "wins".
I don't think even his detractors would say that Jones held the team back in these past 2 years. He might not have uplifted them, but they would not have won much with pretty much anyone at QB.
The roster is now set up so that we may be able to say that they if they do not win, Jones is holding them back. It's possible, but I really doubt it, that they will win and we will know that it was "in spite of Jones".
Not true. It was said that if we had drafted Herbert, we'd have made the playoffs(even though Herbert didn't even make the fucking playoffs). also, I'm pretty sure it was said that Nick Mullens was worth a couple extra wins this year too. I'm not going to scour the archives, but I know this was said: At least two guys on this thread posted in the past that a "NFL average QB" has us in the playoffs. So draw the conclusion from that what you will.
Here's my angle here - Garrett. Fields is a more athletic Dak. So if you give him a better version of Dak - and Garrett did excellent work with Dak - things could be very interesting...
Personally i'm not doing anything for Jason Garrett - sink or swim time for him too. I think the Giants know he's gone after this year either by choice (HC offer if the Giants play well) or by being fired.
If Jones has a good season, do you still want Garrett gone? And then have a third OC for Jones?
You said that Daniel Jones wouldn't be more than a career backup.
You said that Dave Gettleman could go 18-0 and win the Superbowl and you would still consider it a bad job.
There might be some posters who make declarations using definitives like "ever," "never," "no way," "always," etc. But I think they're relatively rare and I definitely haven't seen Terps do so without being obviously sarcastic or hyperbolic for effect. There's a difference, however subtle, between saying, "It doesn't look like Jones will become an elite QB" and "Jones will never become an elite QB."
You said that Daniel Jones wouldn't be more than a career backup.
You said that Dave Gettleman could go 18-0 and win the Superbowl and you would still consider it a bad job.
If I didn't get it EXACTLY right, then my bad. But you said some semblance of both of those statements. I don't know why you're pivoting on it now. If you want to say it was out of context, fine. But do you deny saying either of those things?
I said Jones is an NFL backup. The 18-0 Super Bowl quote not only went over your head, you exaggerated it to completely change the meaning and make it sound crazy. Total bullshit move.
Quote:
Here's my angle here - Garrett. Fields is a more athletic Dak. So if you give him a better version of Dak - and Garrett did excellent work with Dak - things could be very interesting...
Personally i'm not doing anything for Jason Garrett - sink or swim time for him too. I think the Giants know he's gone after this year either by choice (HC offer if the Giants play well) or by being fired.
If Jones has a good season, do you still want Garrett gone? And then have a third OC for Jones?
Ig he has a good season, the Giants are winning. Garrett would be as good as gone anyway. We should resign ourselves to this being the last year of the Judge-Garrett team.
Quote:
but I'm pretty sure you said both of those things.
You said that Daniel Jones wouldn't be more than a career backup.
You said that Dave Gettleman could go 18-0 and win the Superbowl and you would still consider it a bad job.
There might be some posters who make declarations using definitives like "ever," "never," "no way," "always," etc. But I think they're relatively rare and I definitely haven't seen Terps do so without being obviously sarcastic or hyperbolic for effect. There's a difference, however subtle, between saying, "It doesn't look like Jones will become an elite QB" and "Jones will never become an elite QB."
I think that the subsequent post made yours moot.
Not true. It was said that if we had drafted Herbert, we'd have made the playoffs(even though Herbert didn't even make the fucking playoffs). also, I'm pretty sure it was said that Nick Mullens was worth a couple extra wins this year too. I'm not going to scour the archives, but I know this was said: At least two guys on this thread posted in the past that a "NFL average QB" has us in the playoffs. So draw the conclusion from that what you will.
Well, the Chargers were in the AFCW, a real division. And finished 7-9, which would have been good enough - likely - to win the NFCE.
The NFCE winners only 7-9. NYG was one game back. So it's not a wild assertion to think if we had average QB play we likely win the NFCE. Because Jones was a below average QB last year just using QBR as the benchmark.
The detractors think that Jones was a key reason the team hasn't been good - which is why they beat each of these fucking threads to death with the nonsense.
Quote:
but I'm pretty sure you said both of those things.
You said that Daniel Jones wouldn't be more than a career backup.
You said that Dave Gettleman could go 18-0 and win the Superbowl and you would still consider it a bad job.
If I didn't get it EXACTLY right, then my bad. But you said some semblance of both of those statements. I don't know why you're pivoting on it now. If you want to say it was out of context, fine. But do you deny saying either of those things?
I said Jones is an NFL backup. The 18-0 Super Bowl quote not only went over your head, you exaggerated it to completely change the meaning and make it sound crazy. Total bullshit move.
How did I exaggerate it or misinterpret it? Even with your correction/context:
"Going 18-0 next season wouldn't make up for the bad job Gettleman has done for the prior three years".
Is that more accurate?
It's still nuts. 18-0 would make up for the Giants going 0-48 over the past three years. 18-0 would make up for the past decade of losing. 18-0 would be the greatest achievement in the history of the NFL and Gettleman would deserve FULL credit for that. What am I missing? Basically, you'd still find a way to shit on Gettleman even after an 18-0 season?
You may want to just refrain from quoting or citing other posters.
Quote:
Not true. It was said that if we had drafted Herbert, we'd have made the playoffs(even though Herbert didn't even make the fucking playoffs). also, I'm pretty sure it was said that Nick Mullens was worth a couple extra wins this year too. I'm not going to scour the archives, but I know this was said: At least two guys on this thread posted in the past that a "NFL average QB" has us in the playoffs. So draw the conclusion from that what you will.
Well, the Chargers were in the AFCW, a real division. And finished 7-9, which would have been good enough - likely - to win the NFCE.
The NFCE winners only 7-9. NYG was one game back. So it's not a wild assertion to think if we had average QB play we likely win the NFCE. Because Jones was a below average QB last year just using QBR as the benchmark.
If Jones shits the bed this year, I will be with you. I don't see it though. I think this coaching staff has evaluated him and provided him perfect schematic fits. If you were to back off the tiniest bit, you could enjoy his potential success this season. Right now, you are setting yourself up to take a beating every time he has a good game.
The people that are saying prove it in 2021 are going to be able to roll with whatever happens. If he exceeds expectations and has an Allen like 3rd year, you will be thrown in a tar pit and then covered in feathers.
Figuratively.
Quote:
Here's my angle here - Garrett. Fields is a more athletic Dak. So if you give him a better version of Dak - and Garrett did excellent work with Dak - things could be very interesting...
Personally i'm not doing anything for Jason Garrett - sink or swim time for him too. I think the Giants know he's gone after this year either by choice (HC offer if the Giants play well) or by being fired.
If Jones has a good season, do you still want Garrett gone? And then have a third OC for Jones?
No but I don't think it will be up to us, he'd likely get a HC offer. Plus Kitchens sounds like he's heavily involved anyway, so I don't really view this as JG's offense to begin with.
You may want to just refrain from quoting or citing other posters.
And what's the point of pointing that out? What is the rationale? What exactly am I missing in that statement?
This shit is so stupid.
Bill L. - landing on a turning aircraft carrier or something like that I recall?
The detractors think that Jones was a key reason the team hasn't been good - which is why they beat each of these fucking threads to death with the nonsense.
Quote:
In comment 15254985 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
Here's my angle here - Garrett. Fields is a more athletic Dak. So if you give him a better version of Dak - and Garrett did excellent work with Dak - things could be very interesting...
Personally i'm not doing anything for Jason Garrett - sink or swim time for him too. I think the Giants know he's gone after this year either by choice (HC offer if the Giants play well) or by being fired.
If Jones has a good season, do you still want Garrett gone? And then have a third OC for Jones?
Ig he has a good season, the Giants are winning. Garrett would be as good as gone anyway. We should resign ourselves to this being the last year of the Judge-Garrett team.
Agree. Good offensive season and Garrett's name will be called again to be a HC which he should take. Bad season and he's fired.
This shit is so stupid.
They can't go 18-0. There are 17 games in the regular season (16 when I posted that months ago).
It's not my job to cut your food and chew it for you. If you don't understand what someone is saying, don't embellish it, throw it in their face later, and claim you hope for common ground.
If Jones has a great year in 21 you'll be the first guy killing me for it. Please.
Quote:
for Gettleman's 4 years.... means what exactly?
This shit is so stupid.
They can't go 18-0. There are 17 games in the regular season (16 when I posted that months ago).
It's not my job to cut your food and chew it for you. If you don't understand what someone is saying, don't embellish it, throw it in their face later, and claim you hope for common ground.
If Jones has a great year in 21 you'll be the first guy killing me for it. Please.
I'll have to get in a long line, I'm sure.
The Giants are doing what most teams do, load up the offense for their franchise QB. This year is all about clarity, and removing perceived excuses from the equation. Jones needs to prove he can be durable and lead this team to wins.
I was pleased with how Jones performed against the Eagles last year, especially the 2nd game. That is what a Jones led offense should look like - he made some great throws in that game, including a long run for a touchdown. That is what we need to see this year, that’s a player you can win with.
I don’t know if Jones is the guy yet, but I don’t know if he isn’t either. It’s time to see wins though. We’ll know by Thanksgiving how it’s trending.
The Giants are doing what most teams do, load up the offense for their franchise QB. This year is all about clarity, and removing perceived excuses from the equation. Jones needs to prove he can be durable and lead this team to wins.
I was pleased with how Jones performed against the Eagles last year, especially the 2nd game. That is what a Jones led offense should look like - he made some great throws in that game, including a long run for a touchdown. That is what we need to see this year, that’s a player you can win with.
I don’t know if Jones is the guy yet, but I don’t know if he isn’t either. It’s time to see wins though. We’ll know by Thanksgiving how it’s trending.
That's in line with about 98% of the active posters here, probably.
Quote:
In comment 15255187 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
for Gettleman's 4 years.... means what exactly?
This shit is so stupid.
They can't go 18-0. There are 17 games in the regular season (16 when I posted that months ago).
It's not my job to cut your food and chew it for you. If you don't understand what someone is saying, don't embellish it, throw it in their face later, and claim you hope for common ground.
If Jones has a great year in 21 you'll be the first guy killing me for it. Please.
I'll have to get in a long line, I'm sure.
You'll probably post a victory lap thread to cut the line, I'm sure.
I'm not the one who adds words and takes quotes out of context.
I linked to my reference, for better or worse. You should try that sometime.
Quote:
I do think Jones cost the Giants a win against Tampa last year. He missed some crucial throws and was late on the 2 point conversion. I also feel his fumble that led to a touchdown in Dallas was extremely costly, it changed the whole game. He needs to be better.
The Giants are doing what most teams do, load up the offense for their franchise QB. This year is all about clarity, and removing perceived excuses from the equation. Jones needs to prove he can be durable and lead this team to wins.
I was pleased with how Jones performed against the Eagles last year, especially the 2nd game. That is what a Jones led offense should look like - he made some great throws in that game, including a long run for a touchdown. That is what we need to see this year, that’s a player you can win with.
I don’t know if Jones is the guy yet, but I don’t know if he isn’t either. It’s time to see wins though. We’ll know by Thanksgiving how it’s trending.
That's in line with about 98% of the active posters here, probably.
So then why do you all lose your patience so much with such a small minority? Just simply converse with this huge majority and have the type of threads you want.
Is the goal to have 100% of the board agree for some reason on this or quite frankly any other topic?
Quote:
about it already dreamt up when/if it happens.
I'm not the one who adds words and takes quotes out of context.
I linked to my reference, for better or worse. You should try that sometime.
You linked a thread which went against basically everything you said it contained.
If it were me, having said all that and digging up the thread and reading it, I might have said "whoops, I may have misremembered this". But that you bullheadedly doubled down and posted it (maybe hoping that nobody would actually look at it? Not sure) basically shows you to be a disingenuous dude incapable of admitting you were wrong.
So whatever. Terps actually said something very similar to what I said he did. He's not denying he said it. I'm not misremembering that. What you posted however? Pure fiction. And what's even worse, it had NOTHING to do with the discussion. I'm not even sure why you came in hot with that. To discredit me, I guess? Well who looks discredited now?
Screw em'.
You're no more interested in common ground than anyone else. The only difference between you and me is that you've been wrong more often than I've been.
And in a few months when you're wrong again, you'll probably just say you're a better fan than me, and say I'd rather be right than see the Giants win, and blah blah.
I don't give a shit about what anyone is rooting for. It's a Giants board...that we're all rooting for the Giants is a given.
Rooting for the Giants shouldn't interfere with our perceptions of reality...but it's amazing how often it does.
Adios.
Quote:
In comment 15255311 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
about it already dreamt up when/if it happens.
I'm not the one who adds words and takes quotes out of context.
I linked to my reference, for better or worse. You should try that sometime.
You linked a thread which went against basically everything you said it contained.
If it were me, having said all that and digging up the thread and reading it, I might have said "whoops, I may have misremembered this". But that you bullheadedly doubled down and posted it (maybe hoping that nobody would actually look at it? Not sure) basically shows you to be a disingenuous dude incapable of admitting you were wrong.
So whatever. Terps actually said something very similar to what I said he did. He's not denying he said it. I'm not misremembering that. What you posted however? Pure fiction. And what's even worse, it had NOTHING to do with the discussion. I'm not even sure why you came in hot with that. To discredit me, I guess? Well who looks discredited now?
If it was you?
You have taken quotes out of context and added words to people's statements within this thread. I don't think you get to take the high road here, champ. We all do know how much you like to pretend to be holier than thou, though.
But evaluating QBs is very difficult. On the other hand, since you are keeping score, I was pretty spot on with Allen and Herbert. And said Haskins was not going to work in the NFL.
Regardless, I stand by my Fields view and challenge anyone to say he's not a better prospect at this point than Jones was. I believe Sy graded Fields higher than Jones...
I literally just posted like last week what you said about Allen on here few days before that draft. You were off of him at our pick. So I"m not sure how you can claim you were right about him, if you wouldn't have drafted him. You were right about Haskins that's for sure. I saw problems that could get fixed and why I liked him until the character concerns all came out and why I soured on him late in the process. At this point, you'll sing the praises of anyone coming out as long as it's not DJ so I'm not sure Herbert is some revelation. You would have replaced him with anyone that wasn't named Mac this year and I think you are going to see how silly that looks here soon.
Screw em'.
My guess is that the negative nannies would not be so negative if we didn't attack them so much, in my opinion. People get too personal.
If he comes out and leads the Giants to a great season and you want to throw it in my face, have at it. But where we stand right now is that Jones has given the Giants 7 good starts out of a possible 32. That's where things actually stand in the real world. It isn't negativity.
Quote:
They'd rather die on a hill than concede an inch.
Screw em'.
The ad hominem attacks they are the target of have turned them into trolls. The subtly of their work is often impressive. BW made me so fucking mad a couple of years ago that I resorted to name calling. I really try to avoid that unless provoked. He didn't deserve it.
My guess is that the negative nannies would not be so negative if we didn't attack them so much, in my opinion. People get too personal.
Quite the therapy session here. What's your hourly rate?
If he comes out and leads the Giants to a great season and you want to throw it in my face, have at it. But where we stand right now is that Jones has given the Giants 7 good starts out of a possible 32. That's where things actually stand in the real world. It isn't negativity.
Jones also had a decent rookie year with little talent. I use an eraser for 2020. Jones might be hot dog shit. My gut tells me 30 TDs and AY/A above league average in 2021. Judge spent the year with him and did not draft Fields or Mac.
I think Judge is a genius or near it based on how he speaks. That doesn't necessarily make him a great coach. I have been surrounded by brilliance in my life and some them could not manage 3 people. I think we may have stepped in dogshit landing him. I am not sure yet. Results do matter.
I just do see a reason you had to dig in so deep the kid is garbage. Other people might not see it, but I know you are one of the more intelligent posters on this board. In a similar way that Judge and DG seem to be collaborating, I think Judge and Jones may well be a good match. I believe him when he says Jones has the respect of the building, both players and coaches.
Rodgers has as much talent as I have ever seen in a QB. It is possible that he hasn't won as many Superbowls as he could have because he is also a dick. The QB has to lead the team. The fact they see the intangibles to work with in Jones is no small thing.
I think it is worth giving the kid our support for 2021. I think most of this board does too. I respect your right to your opinion though. I don't like the way people speak to you.
I did, and I have. I thought at the time that Jones maybe turned a corner, but that was wishful thinking.
I do think the Giants turned a corner bringing in Judge and apparently changing the way they operate. That's very positive, and I do think it will yield good things. Just not in 2021. The most important player on the team was acquired through the old ways, before Judge.
I've said before that I think (emphasis on think before people freak out) that Judge knows his job is secure and is waiting this out. Jones isn't his guy, and he (Judge) just got a lot of ammo to get his guy in 2022.
In the macro sense I'm optimistic.
Bill L. - landing on a turning aircraft carrier or something like that I recall?
Quote:
The detractors think that Jones was a key reason the team hasn't been good - which is why they beat each of these fucking threads to death with the nonsense.
Quote:
others reasons as well, like the GM who put a poor roster together, particularly on Offense and plopped a rookie QB into the middle of it.
Bill L. - landing on a turning aircraft carrier or something like that I recall?
Quote:
The detractors think that Jones was a key reason the team hasn't been good - which is why they beat each of these fucking threads to death with the nonsense.
the reference was something I heard about the battle of midway. A Japanese aircraft carrier could not help because apparently it takes a decade to turn around. Not sure really how long. Point being DG inherited a ship going in the wrong direction and it takes a lot longer than you might think to turn it around.
DG didn't even attempt to turn it around in 18. If anything he went full speed ahead in the direction they were going.
Lt. Richard Best led the second wave. Known for diving at very high speeds and very steep angles, he put a 1000 pound bomb from such a short distance that it went straight to the fuel and munitions storage section before exploding.
That acknowledged, it would take a fully functional Nimitz fifty miles to stop if you shut off the power right now.
Not sure which example is the metaphor you were diving or driving for.
Lt. Richard Best led the second wave. Known for diving at very high speeds and very steep angles, he put a 1000 pound bomb from such a short distance that it went straight to the fuel and munitions storage section before exploding.
That acknowledged, it would take a fully functional Nimitz fifty miles to stop if you shut off the power right now.
Not sure which example is the metaphor you were diving or driving for.
After that shot, if he didn't go by the nickname Dick, he should have 😂
They, of course, universally put him down as an inferior Admiral who did not fight like a gentleman in long distance parallel lines but rather sought to destroy by crossing the T of their ships lines and destroying them in detail from all sides and at close quarters. ( its hard to get your ships lined up one after the other in neat formation...takes a high bred Admiral not like a small common man)
The fact that none of those ever fielded a Naval challenge to England ever again seems lost.
Like some posting styles, Nelson mastered firing at 3x the speed of the opponent.
Or perhaps you could mix your metaphors and disable their rudders while firing 3x faster?
He went up another time at Midway and sunk another carrier. The only man to take down two carriers with over 50 planes apiecen in one day.
He also wrecked his lungs at Midway and never flew combat ever again.
"He likes to create chaos"
But Midway was well done.
One more movie that shows that Woody Harrelson had chops he wasn't showing on the set of Cheers.
He went up another time at Midway and sunk another carrier. The only man to take down two carriers with over 50 planes apiecen in one day.
He also wrecked his lungs at Midway and never flew combat ever again.
I think every one with the name Richard went by Dick back then lol. Winters comes to mind as well. Also, my father was born in '42 and goes by Dick. I however do not
I knew what you meant Bill and I agree.
Turnarounds do take time. They take even longer when root problems are ignored or underestimated from the outset, or a well designed rebuilding plan is not devised only leading to further desperate moves to try and make up for earlier mistakes or lost time. You know the
Oh, and the Akagi was never at Coral Sea. But she and Nagumo sure got their asses kicked in at Midway because he ignored certain warning signs and didn’t have the same level of intelligence that his opponents had...
She was being retrofit/training during the Battle of Coral Sea.
;)
The Ser
The Bonhomme Richard was done...defeated...not up to the test of the day.
Jones decided to not give up. Jones decided that with the trust of his team that he had all he needed.
So Yamamoto decided his 4 other largest carriers from the Kido Butai would be able to do the job at Midway. While the Japanese had a superior number of carriers to the US when the war started, this already showed the weaknesses they had in replacing and refitting their battle units from losses.
Midway’s losses basically crippled them for good.
;)
Well, maybe Jones will just happen to catch his opponents flat-footed in 2021. Maybe he will surprise them and throw a few bombs down their throats when they least expect it.
And turn the tide on his career...