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Joe Judge: Daniel Jones played through serious injuries

Anando : 5/3/2021 7:04 pm
Quote:

Giants coach Joe Judge said most other NFL players would have missed more than only two games.

“Look, Daniel is the last guy that’s going to use anything as an excuse,” Judge, who rarely talks about injuries, told The Michael Kay Show on Monday. What I would say about the injury last year is it was much more serious than maybe people thought on the outside. I would say probably 90 percent of players in the league who would have had that injury, including quarterbacks, would have been on IR for the remainder of the year.

That’s just the reality of it. It was much more severe than maybe he allowed people to know or the information that was put out there, and we’re going to protect our players by not disclosing everything about their injuries to be honest with you. He fought through a lot of things. He earned a lot of people’s respect.”
He's my quarterback  
adamg : 5/3/2021 7:06 pm : link
.
Sounding more and more  
redwhiteandbigblue : 5/3/2021 7:07 pm : link
like Eli. I am really rooting for this kid.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/3/2021 7:10 pm : link
It's tough not to like DJ. He seems like a hardworking, serious dude who lives & breathes football. That said, it's time to take the next leap this fall or it's time to cut bait.
Joe Judge is the man  
Bear vs Shark : 5/3/2021 7:11 pm : link
How can players not want to run through a goddamn brick wall for him?

And yeah, DJ is a tough son of a bitch, and this makes me feel better about his performance last year. I hope he proves he's a franchise guy, but for some reason, my primary takeaway here is about Judge.

Judge is a fucking LEADER. So happy he's our coach. He has that innate understanding of when to hold people accountable, and when to stick up for his guys
Could barely walk  
ryanmkeane : 5/3/2021 7:21 pm : link
towards the end of that Cardinals game. Glad he’s our QB. Dude is one tough son of a bitch, Here’s to a fully healthy season in 2021
I'm tired of reading posters who want to get rid of Dan Jones.  
TLong : 5/3/2021 7:22 pm : link
So many of BBI posters try to ignore the teams problems on
Offensive Line ( and it has been very "offensive") and on the receiving corps (ps silent).
Give the guy a chance to prove himself under normal conditions and with a decent OL and good receivers.

As for Joe Judge, I think he may make it. Time will tell.
RE: I'm tired of reading posters who want to get rid of Dan Jones.  
Scooter185 : 5/3/2021 7:29 pm : link
In comment 15252182 TLong said:
Quote:
So many of BBI posters try to ignore the teams problems on
Offensive Line ( and it has been very "offensive") and on the receiving corps (ps silent).
Give the guy a chance to prove himself under normal conditions and with a decent OL and good receivers.

As for Joe Judge, I think he may make it. Time will tell.


It's not ignoring, it's that we believe a QB can be evaluated without perfect conditions.

On topic: on one hand DJ is certainly one tough SOB, however if you want DJ to be the QB for the next 10 years I'd find this information scary. The last thing you should want is your QB pushing through the kind of injury that could lead to worse injuries.

As Aaron Judge said it's better to miss 1 game than to miss 1 month..
RE: Could barely walk  
Matt in SGS : 5/3/2021 7:30 pm : link
In comment 15252181 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
towards the end of that Cardinals game. Glad he’s our QB. Dude is one tough son of a bitch, Here’s to a fully healthy season in 2021


This. In a way, Hassan Reddick's sack bonanza (and Andrew Thomas' terrible stats as a result) really need an asterisk because Jones was a sitting duck back there. He couldn't/wouldn't move & had no chance. Giants should have never tried to even play him in that game.
So any ideas on what hapened?  
Chris684 : 5/3/2021 7:37 pm : link
Did this guy play on a high ankle sprain? Wow.

Powerful remarks from Judge. Several posters will be noticeably absent from this thread.
RE: I'm tired of reading posters who want to get rid of Dan Jones.  
BSIMatt : 5/3/2021 7:41 pm : link
In comment 15252182 TLong said:
Quote:
So many of BBI posters try to ignore the teams problems on
Offensive Line ( and it has been very "offensive") and on the receiving corps (ps silent).
Give the guy a chance to prove himself under normal conditions and with a decent OL and good receivers.

As for Joe Judge, I think he may make it. Time will tell.


Have a feeling a large number of those guys are the ones who never liked the pick in the first place and are still thinking about Josh Allen and what could have been. Subset of those guys could be those still mad at Gettleman choosing Barkley #2 overall, instead of choosing Eli’s successor. Might be wrong about that, but I’m guessing that’s where the some of that sentiment originates.
Drives me nuts that it’s obvious he’s progressing than gets an obvious  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/3/2021 7:43 pm : link
serious injury and “regresses”. Saying it doesn’t matter as far as production goes is one thing, but another when you extrapolate his growth because of him gutting out serious injuries that would have had lots of guys just sit out. It’s arguing to prove a point (DJ sucks) than it is objectively looking at a situation.

We had people pointing out the 12 sacks in two games and just completely gloss over his injuries. Ridiculous, it’s the type of crap you hear on ESPN so they can argue, not fans of the team looking at things objectively and with reason.
No doubt Danny Jones is tough.  
Vanzetti : 5/3/2021 7:43 pm : link
No doubt he is smart.

But that doesn’t mean
He will automatically be a good QB.

RE: RE: Could barely walk  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/3/2021 7:44 pm : link
In comment 15252193 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
In comment 15252181 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


towards the end of that Cardinals game. Glad he’s our QB. Dude is one tough son of a bitch, Here’s to a fully healthy season in 2021



This. In a way, Hassan Reddick's sack bonanza (and Andrew Thomas' terrible stats as a result) really need an asterisk because Jones was a sitting duck back there. He couldn't/wouldn't move & had no chance. Giants should have never tried to even play him in that game.


Anyone with two eyes could come to that conclusion, but people see what they want to see I guess.
RE: So any ideas on what hapened?  
Go Terps : 5/3/2021 7:50 pm : link
In comment 15252196 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Did this guy play on a high ankle sprain? Wow.

Powerful remarks from Judge. Several posters will be noticeably absent from this thread.


Why do you think that? Which posters?
.  
Danny Kanell : 5/3/2021 7:53 pm : link
The hamstring was brutal and it was obvious. The ankle held him back too.

I really hope Jones puts it all together. He’s very easy to root for.
Terps  
ryanmkeane : 5/3/2021 7:54 pm : link
why are you even responding - you have repeatedly said that you think Jones is garbage.
RE: He's my quarterback  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2021 7:55 pm : link
In comment 15252155 adamg said:
Quote:
.


Fuck yeah. That’s the shit that doesn’t show up on the stat sheet.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/3/2021 7:56 pm : link
Ding, ding, ding.

GT vs. ryanmkeane, round 67589597.
I'm not bothering with Ryan  
Go Terps : 5/3/2021 7:59 pm : link
Was just asking the other guy who he was fishing for.
2020 Tampa Bay game interceptions  
bcinsd : 5/3/2021 7:59 pm : link
I really liked DJ after year one despite all the TOs but the two terrible interceptions last year against TB that likely cost us the game really started to make me think he may not be the guy.

When things break down around you, do you panic or do you naturally make the right decision. Nobody's perfect, but some guys are clutch and some aren't.

Hoping he breaks out this year, but trying to stay realistic.


RE: I'm not bothering with Ryan  
ryanmkeane : 5/3/2021 8:00 pm : link
In comment 15252224 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Was just asking the other guy who he was fishing for.

Self awareness buddy
RE: I'm not bothering with Ryan  
Chris684 : 5/3/2021 8:04 pm : link
In comment 15252224 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Was just asking the other guy who he was fishing for.


Cool. So you monitor Daniel Jones threads. Also, I didn't specifically have you in mind but the fact this thread is an hour old and has like 20 replies proves my point. Can you imagine if Judge said something to the opposite effect? Like if he felt Jones sat out injuries that were less severe? This thread would be a party by now.
We all suspected this.  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2021 8:06 pm : link
But it’s interesting to hear Judge confirm it. We know two things about Jones for certain at this point, indisputably:

1. He is a hard worker
2. He’s got guts

Hope his hard work pays off for him, the team, and us.
.  
Go Terps : 5/3/2021 8:06 pm : link
It would be a party because Judge would be a moron to criticize Jones. You're going to get nothing but compliments from him...they mean nothing.

Lotta of quarterbacks are tough...you kind of have to be to make it to the NFL. Dave Brown was tough too.
I stand by the fact that playing him in the Arizona game  
Chris684 : 5/3/2021 8:09 pm : link
was Judge's big rookie mistake of the year but in fairness this is a Ronnie Barnes decision too and in fairness to everyone, maybe Jones was hiding pain and talking up his availability.
Is Daniel Jones healed up now  
M.S. : 5/3/2021 8:10 pm : link

or what?
....  
BrettNYG10 : 5/3/2021 8:11 pm : link
I don't find Judge's comments on Jones particularly persuasive or indicative that I might be missing something in terms of Jones' 2020 play.

I think Jones had a pretty poor year even throwing out the BAL/AZ games. I'd rather hear about what Jones does well on the field in terms of processing/throws than toughness and respect.
RE: Is Daniel Jones healed up now  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2021 8:12 pm : link
In comment 15252234 M.S. said:
Quote:

or what?


I hope so. I think Judge was talking about his early return from the hammy.
RE: Terps  
chopperhatch : 5/3/2021 8:13 pm : link
In comment 15252218 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
why are you even responding - you have repeatedly said that you think Jones is garbage.


Its incredible....the self proclaimed oracle of BBI has spoken....again....about the same opinion everybody know he has.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/3/2021 8:13 pm : link
I agree w/ GT that Judge complimenting DJ is sorta 'Well yeah...what you expect him to say?'

I think us getting a second 1st next year is hedging our bets about DJ long term going forward. Sam Howell anybody?
jones is tough and works hard  
GiantsFan84 : 5/3/2021 8:15 pm : link
he's a real good kid and likable but that doesn't make him good
RE: ...  
Go Terps : 5/3/2021 8:15 pm : link
In comment 15252240 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I agree w/ GT that Judge complimenting DJ is sorta 'Well yeah...what you expect him to say?'

I think us getting a second 1st next year is hedging our bets about DJ long term going forward. Sam Howell anybody?


Actions speak louder than words, definitely.
RE: We all suspected this.  
WillVAB : 5/3/2021 8:16 pm : link
In comment 15252230 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
But it’s interesting to hear Judge confirm it. We know two things about Jones for certain at this point, indisputably:

1. He is a hard worker
2. He’s got guts

Hope his hard work pays off for him, the team, and us.


3. Injury Prone
RE: ...  
Chris684 : 5/3/2021 8:17 pm : link
In comment 15252240 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I agree w/ GT that Judge complimenting DJ is sorta 'Well yeah...what you expect him to say?'

I think us getting a second 1st next year is hedging our bets about DJ long term going forward. Sam Howell anybody?


I dunno, as of last week I remember reading a Terps conspiracy that Judge secretly doesn't like Jones and wants to be rid of him. I would say Judge has a weird way of of trying to hid his true feelings.
RE: RE: We all suspected this.  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2021 8:18 pm : link
In comment 15252246 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 15252230 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


But it’s interesting to hear Judge confirm it. We know two things about Jones for certain at this point, indisputably:

1. He is a hard worker
2. He’s got guts

Hope his hard work pays off for him, the team, and us.



3. Injury Prone


Cool.
You rooting against him, then?  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2021 8:19 pm : link
?
Because that’s a shitty thing to say...  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2021 8:21 pm : link
when the whole thread is about the coach complimenting him on playing through injury and earning respect.

Judge didn’t have to say any of that.
RE: Because that’s a shitty thing to say...  
WillVAB : 5/3/2021 8:23 pm : link
In comment 15252258 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
when the whole thread is about the coach complimenting him on playing through injury and earning respect.

Judge didn’t have to say any of that.


He’s been in the league two years and got hurt both years. It’s a factual statement until he proves me wrong and stays healthy. Has nothing to do with “rooting against him.”
RE: You rooting against him, then?  
Go Terps : 5/3/2021 8:23 pm : link
In comment 15252253 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
?


What does that matter?
RE: RE: You rooting against him, then?  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2021 8:28 pm : link
In comment 15252263 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15252253 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


?



What does that matter?


Well it matters because I want to know who to talk to on here and who to ignore. I appreciate what Jones brings to the table, his attitude, and his work ethic. I’m rooting for him and if you and others are not, then okay. If Jones is good the Giants are good and I appreciate his attitude. He’s doing the work and you’re not so I’m going to root for him.

If you’re rooting against Jones, you’re rooting against the Giants. Point blank.
Bottom Line  
WillVAB : 5/3/2021 8:31 pm : link
I’m tired of hearing about what these players could or will be, or unquantifiable intangible bullshit. “Jones is so tough.” “Engram is such a hard worker.” Cool, then lead a game winning drive or make a sideline catch to close out a game. Now is the time to show me. Jones a franchise guy? Prove it. The OL is talented? Prove it. Barkley is a gold jacket guy? Prove it.

If this team is as talented as the organization is says it is, then they shouldn’t have any problem winning the division this year. Time for results.
And of all threads to choose to make a referendum on Jones...  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2021 8:31 pm : link
And you choose this one? Fuck off.
I'm rooting for the Giants to win  
Go Terps : 5/3/2021 8:34 pm : link
I don't care who's the quarterback. I agree he's tough and send like a good guy. But this isn't Eli or Simms...he hasn't earned anything. You could easily argue that rooting for him to keep the job is rooting for the Giants to lose.

I want the Giants to find the path to winning football. We all do. It doesn't have to be with any specific player on the roster, and it doesn't make anyone a better fan if they root for Jones to be the QB.
*seems  
Go Terps : 5/3/2021 8:34 pm : link
.
RE: And of all threads to choose to make a referendum on Jones...  
WillVAB : 5/3/2021 8:34 pm : link
In comment 15252272 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
And you choose this one? Fuck off.


We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/3/2021 8:35 pm : link
I think GT wants Jones to succeed, but doesn't think he will. That's a fair take that I don't necessarily disagree with. I think this fall is make or break for Jones.

That said, I had to laugh when GT said he would have drafted Herbert last year @ 4 after DJ's rookie season. That was LOL to me. And again, I respect GT opinions but I thought he was trolling @ that point.
If Judge thought Fields or Mac Jones was a better prospect that DJ  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/3/2021 8:36 pm : link
he would have drafted him. Did you see how we operate in the draft? It's not all Judge, but he has a massive say, and if he didn't want him, he had opportunity to move on. Of course I don't think Fields is a great prospect, but I notice the posters that think DJ is garbage think Fields is a great prospect. I'm not sure how they can reconcile that after the last year and half. If Judge wanted a new QB, he would have gotten one.

Somehow simultaneously Judge is responsible for the turnaround in personnel decisions both in FA and the draft, but yet he doesn't get the QB he wants without having to give up any capital (and would have fetched at least a couple 2nds for DJ considering what Darnold just got). You don't think Bruce Arians would have taken that offer? He didn't do that because he saw exactly what I saw last year. A progressing QB, that worked on his issues over the summer, started slow fixing them, and progressively got better until his injuries derailed him.
RE: Bottom Line  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2021 8:36 pm : link
In comment 15252271 WillVAB said:
Quote:
I’m tired of hearing about what these players could or will be, or unquantifiable intangible bullshit. “Jones is so tough.” “Engram is such a hard worker.” Cool, then lead a game winning drive or make a sideline catch to close out a game. Now is the time to show me. Jones a franchise guy? Prove it. The OL is talented? Prove it. Barkley is a gold jacket guy? Prove it.

If this team is as talented as the organization is says it is, then they shouldn’t have any problem winning the division this year. Time for results.


We know what you want. You think it’s not clear? This thread is about a kid stepping into a bigass situation and toughing it out to try and earn the respect of his teammates, coaches, and fans.
RE: RE: And of all threads to choose to make a referendum on Jones...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/3/2021 8:36 pm : link
In comment 15252277 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 15252272 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


And you choose this one? Fuck off.



We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.


Thomas' game improved considerably as the season progressed.
 
ryanmkeane : 5/3/2021 8:37 pm : link
“This isn’t Simms”?????

Do you remember watching Simms play his first I don’t know…7 seasons?
RE: RE: And of all threads to choose to make a referendum on Jones...  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2021 8:37 pm : link
In comment 15252277 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 15252272 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


And you choose this one? Fuck off.



We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.


I never questioned Thomas last year. Did you?
RE: Bottom Line  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/3/2021 8:38 pm : link
In comment 15252271 WillVAB said:
Quote:
I’m tired of hearing about what these players could or will be, or unquantifiable intangible bullshit. “Jones is so tough.” “Engram is such a hard worker.” Cool, then lead a game winning drive or make a sideline catch to close out a game. Now is the time to show me. Jones a franchise guy? Prove it. The OL is talented? Prove it. Barkley is a gold jacket guy? Prove it.

If this team is as talented as the organization is says it is, then they shouldn’t have any problem winning the division this year. Time for results.


They honestly shouldn't considering how the Boys bounce back. This is where the rubber meets the road and what many of us are trying to say. Some of us are optimistic and some aren't. We'll find out by January of next year.
RE: RE: And of all threads to choose to make a referendum on Jones...  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/3/2021 8:38 pm : link
In comment 15252277 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 15252272 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


And you choose this one? Fuck off.



We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.


👆

Just an attention whore trying to carve out some space for himself now that even those of us who have been quick to criticize DG are feeling good about the draft.
RE: ...  
Go Terps : 5/3/2021 8:39 pm : link
In comment 15252279 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I think GT wants Jones to succeed, but doesn't think he will. That's a fair take that I don't necessarily disagree with. I think this fall is make or break for Jones.

That said, I had to laugh when GT said he would have drafted Herbert last year @ 4 after DJ's rookie season. That was LOL to me. And again, I respect GT opinions but I thought he was trolling @ that point.


Seriously? If given a mulligan you wouldn't draft Herbert? The Giants would - I'd bet a lot on that.
Jones is very tough..  
Sean : 5/3/2021 8:40 pm : link
And he’s a hard worker, traits coaches love. I have no doubt he’s putting in a ton of work this offseason.

However, availability matters. Eli gets tremendous credit for being available, which he should. On the flip side, I worry about Jones and availability. He’s missed 4 games due to injury in his career in two seasons.

With that said, he’s very easy to root for.
Not surprising  
Thegratefulhead : 5/3/2021 8:40 pm : link
At all. No one was ever worried about his intangibles. He needs to go out and do it. I believe he will. No excuses. Can't allow QB play to hold us back.
RE: RE: RE: And of all threads to choose to make a referendum on Jones...  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2021 8:41 pm : link
In comment 15252289 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15252277 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 15252272 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


And you choose this one? Fuck off.



We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.



👆

Just an attention whore trying to carve out some space for himself now that even those of us who have been quick to criticize DG are feeling good about the draft.


You’re angry at the world. I’m sorry for your situation, truly, so I’ll decline a response.
We’re all fans of the NYG....  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2021 8:42 pm : link
I’m sorry some of you have lost sight of that.

Out.
RE: We’re all fans of the NYG....  
Go Terps : 5/3/2021 8:43 pm : link
In comment 15252298 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I’m sorry some of you have lost sight of that.

Out.


Seems like you have.
RE: RE: I'm tired of reading posters who want to get rid of Dan Jones.  
KeoweeFan : 5/3/2021 8:44 pm : link
In comment 15252192 Scooter185 said:
Quote:
In comment 15252182 TLong said:


Quote:


So many of BBI posters try to ignore the teams problems on
Offensive Line ( and it has been very "offensive") and on the receiving corps (ps silent).
Give the guy a chance to prove himself under normal conditions and with a decent OL and good receivers.

As for Joe Judge, I think he may make it. Time will tell.



It's not ignoring, it's that we believe a QB can be evaluated without perfect conditions.

On topic: on one hand DJ is certainly one tough SOB, however if you want DJ to be the QB for the next 10 years I'd find this information scary. The last thing you should want is your QB pushing through the kind of injury that could lead to worse injuries.

As Aaron Judge said it's better to miss 1 game than to miss 1 month..

"In Ronnie Barnes we trust". I don't believe the medical staff would have cleared him to play if serious damage was possible. Barnes' future is not as tied to won/loss as JJ and DG.
RE: He's my quarterback  
Brown_Hornet : 5/3/2021 8:44 pm : link
In comment 15252155 adamg said:
Quote:
.

+1

It really is that simple.
RE: RE: RE: And of all threads to choose to make a referendum on Jones...  
WillVAB : 5/3/2021 8:45 pm : link
In comment 15252289 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15252277 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 15252272 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


And you choose this one? Fuck off.



We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.



👆

Just an attention whore trying to carve out some space for himself now that even those of us who have been quick to criticize DG are feeling good about the draft.


Attention whore? Why don’t you give the board another lecture about how Omameh and Toilolo are going to ruin the Giants salary cap?
Terps  
ryanmkeane : 5/3/2021 8:46 pm : link
I don’t know why you come on these threads, everyone knows you don’t like Jones and don’t think he is going to be good. And you’re sort of in he minority. Why do you buzzkill all of these threads?
What a cesspool of a thread  
Mike from Ohio : 5/3/2021 8:46 pm : link
Coach says something positive about the QB. Idiot poster immediately attacks another poster not on the thread. Everybody gets on the same soapbox they are always on and regurgitates the same nonsense that they do on every thread.

There are probably Eagles fans linking to this thread and laughing at how stupid Giants fans are. I think most Giants fans are smart fans, but there is a huge concentration of stupid on this thread.

Fans are frustrated with Jones because of his production, not because they hate him. If you don’t understand that you are an imbecile.
He was calling me an attention whore FYI  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2021 8:46 pm : link
.
RE: He was calling me an attention whore FYI  
WillVAB : 5/3/2021 8:48 pm : link
In comment 15252315 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
.


Haha, my bad Gatorade!
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/3/2021 8:49 pm : link
GT, April 2020...after Jones rookie season/Herbert only at Oregon...no one running any team is taking Herbert. Jones showed a lot his rookie season. By that reasoning, why didn't 'Fins take a QB @ 6? Jones was better than Tua their rookie years.

RE: RE: And of all threads to choose to make a referendum on Jones...  
Bergen346 : 5/3/2021 8:50 pm : link
In comment 15252277 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 15252272 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


And you choose this one? Fuck off.



We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.


WillVAB.... this is a serious take? Maybe there is a connection between a player underperforming and fighting an injury that was worse than what everyone thought at the time.

Maybe even the BEST players who have serious injuries underperform because... they’re legitimately injured.....

You make it seems like Judge just made this comment up to cover for Jones. Are you really that cynical? Unreal.
RE: ...  
Go Terps : 5/3/2021 8:51 pm : link
In comment 15252322 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
GT, April 2020...after Jones rookie season/Herbert only at Oregon...no one running any team is taking Herbert. Jones showed a lot his rookie season. By that reasoning, why didn't 'Fins take a QB @ 6? Jones was better than Tua their rookie years.


I would have if I were them.

The Cardinals did this a couple years ago. It's not that outlandish.

But I'm saying with hindsight - the Giants would absolutely take Herbert now.
So should Jones been our there or not?  
bw in dc : 5/3/2021 8:53 pm : link
Because I'm fairly certain he got cleared to play by the medical team. No?
RE: RE: RE: I'm tired of reading posters who want to get rid of Dan Jones.  
Bergen346 : 5/3/2021 8:53 pm : link
In comment 15252303 KeoweeFan said:
Quote:
In comment 15252192 Scooter185 said:


Quote:


In comment 15252182 TLong said:


Quote:


So many of BBI posters try to ignore the teams problems on
Offensive Line ( and it has been very "offensive") and on the receiving corps (ps silent).
Give the guy a chance to prove himself under normal conditions and with a decent OL and good receivers.

As for Joe Judge, I think he may make it. Time will tell.



It's not ignoring, it's that we believe a QB can be evaluated without perfect conditions.

On topic: on one hand DJ is certainly one tough SOB, however if you want DJ to be the QB for the next 10 years I'd find this information scary. The last thing you should want is your QB pushing through the kind of injury that could lead to worse injuries.

As Aaron Judge said it's better to miss 1 game than to miss 1 month..


"In Ronnie Barnes we trust". I don't believe the medical staff would have cleared him to play if serious damage was possible. Barnes' future is not as tied to won/loss as JJ and DG.


Right because Joe Judge would flat out make up a lie? But rather you “don’t believe” based off of what insight/information? Or you’re just making up a baseless hot take.
RE: RE: ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/3/2021 8:54 pm : link
In comment 15252291 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15252279 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


I think GT wants Jones to succeed, but doesn't think he will. That's a fair take that I don't necessarily disagree with. I think this fall is make or break for Jones.

That said, I had to laugh when GT said he would have drafted Herbert last year @ 4 after DJ's rookie season. That was LOL to me. And again, I respect GT opinions but I thought he was trolling @ that point.



Seriously? If given a mulligan you wouldn't draft Herbert? The Giants would - I'd bet a lot on that.

I would. I would swap Jones for Herbert right now and I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over it. I think Herbert is the better QB.

But I also have come to realize that the Giants aren't going to swap QBs on my whim, so my only choice would be to swap QBs for myself, and that means swapping allegiance to a different team. I don't want to do that.

Will I stop criticizing this front office? Absolutely not. I'm still me, and I'm not going to pretend to be anyone else. Will I never wonder how things would turn out with another player instead of the one we drafted/signed/etc.? Also, no. That's boring to me, and only makes sense if you're going to blindly bless every move that the FO makes.

But to hang onto guys that get drafted a year after the one we took? When our FO is clearly handcuffing themselves to that guy? I guess I'm kind of getting over that version of the "what if" game.

And I know that some fans who like to defend the FO's moves will often ask what someone would have done instead, and I guess that's a fair question, and I'll always try to have an answer for it. But I don't think it makes much sense to get locked in on the players we could have had because that just feels like a slippery slope: when we traded for Eli, I wondered how much stronger the roster would have been if we had acquired assets with Roethlisberger instead of trading them away for Eli. And then a year later, if we hadn't taken Eli, we could have taken Rodgers. But do we win the two SBs we won with either of those guys? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe more. Maybe less. Maybe none.

I'm just going to stay centered on the guys that the Giants do acquire. I won't like them all. I won't agree with every signing or every draft pick or every contract structure or whatever. But I feel like the "what if" game is an endless cycle and it's always one or two steps away from reality.

If we take Josh Allen and then take the other Josh Allen in the following year, where does our draft pick land last year? And who do we take? And how does he play? And how does that impact our W/L record? And then where does our draft pick land this year? And what happens from that slot? Do we end up with two firsts for next year? Do we have the same draft class that we wound up with? Do those better picks from a couple of years ago save Shurmur's job and he's just good enough to stay in his role but still not good enough for us to win another Lombardi?

This is not a declaration that I'm done complaining about what this team does, but it is an admission that I don't have the ability to map out an alternate course for them over time. I'll continue to consider each move as it happens (sorry, BBI!), but I'm also going to try to do a better job of accepting this team as it is along the way.
Wasn’t That Many Years Ago  
Samiam : 5/3/2021 8:55 pm : link
That most here thought that Reese was the best GM in football or close to it. Do you remember In Reese We Trust? He’d make some questionable moves but he had the 2 rings so you had to believe he knew what he was doing. There weren’t many who criticized him and those who did, caught the same attitude that critics of Gettleman are getting today.
RE: He was calling me an attention whore FYI  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/3/2021 8:56 pm : link
In comment 15252315 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
.

No, I wasn't.
RE: RE: ...  
Bergen346 : 5/3/2021 8:56 pm : link
In comment 15252324 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15252322 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


GT, April 2020...after Jones rookie season/Herbert only at Oregon...no one running any team is taking Herbert. Jones showed a lot his rookie season. By that reasoning, why didn't 'Fins take a QB @ 6? Jones was better than Tua their rookie years.




I would have if I were them.

The Cardinals did this a couple years ago. It's not that outlandish.

But I'm saying with hindsight - the Giants would absolutely take Herbert now.


With hindsight we would have taken Josh Allen, Herbert and many other QB’s over Jones - and I am a Jones fan. But who TF cares about hindsight? No one truly knows how a player will develop and turn out. Hindsight is the most useless concept in professional sports why even waste time thinking about it?
RE: Terps  
Mike from Ohio : 5/3/2021 8:56 pm : link
In comment 15252311 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
I don’t know why you come on these threads, everyone knows you don’t like Jones and don’t think he is going to be good. And you’re sort of in he minority. Why do you buzzkill all of these threads?


Probably the same reason you come on every thread and gush over Jones. You are both desperately seeking to be proven right. You just cancel each other out by screaming the loudest.

Everybody on this board knows what both of you will say on every Jones thread ever.
RE: Terps  
Scooter185 : 5/3/2021 8:57 pm : link
In comment 15252311 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
I don’t know why you come on these threads, everyone knows you don’t like Jones and don’t think he is going to be good. And you’re sort of in he minority. Why do you buzzkill all of these threads?


Oh come on, Chris684s post was a thinly veiled jab at GT before he had posted in this thread. GT was practically summoned but "wHy dO yOu PoSt?"
RE: Terps  
Scooter185 : 5/3/2021 8:58 pm : link
In comment 15252311 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
I don’t know why you come on these threads, everyone knows you don’t like Jones and don’t think he is going to be good. And you’re sort of in he minority. Why do you buzzkill all of these threads?


Oh come on, Chris684s post was a thinly veiled jab at GT before he had posted in this thread. GT was practically summoned but "wHy dO yOu PoSt?"
RE: RE: RE: And of all threads to choose to make a referendum on Jones...  
WillVAB : 5/3/2021 8:59 pm : link
In comment 15252323 Bergen346 said:
Quote:
In comment 15252277 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 15252272 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


And you choose this one? Fuck off.



We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.



WillVAB.... this is a serious take? Maybe there is a connection between a player underperforming and fighting an injury that was worse than what everyone thought at the time.

Maybe even the BEST players who have serious injuries underperform because... they’re legitimately injured.....

You make it seems like Judge just made this comment up to cover for Jones. Are you really that cynical? Unreal.


Every year we hear about underperforming Giants playing through injuries after the season. Every year.

Look, I’m completely neutral on Jones right now. He’s shown he can do some things really well and he’s exhibited some major flaws. We’ll see. I want him to succeed because if he succeeds then the Giants succeed. It’s that simple.

That doesn’t mean every fan should bow down and kiss his ass every time Gettleman or Judge gives the media a sound bite.

You know what I like more than a tough QB who tries to play through injuries? A smart QB who knows how to protect himself and avoid injuries so he can play a full season.
I could see Jones was feeling it.  
Giant John : 5/3/2021 9:01 pm : link
Tough guy for sure.have to be careful though to not come back too early. That’s where having a solid backup helps.
Ffffff  
Scooter185 : 5/3/2021 9:02 pm : link
Origin errors
Lol Mike  
ryanmkeane : 5/3/2021 9:03 pm : link
your typical “both sides” bullshit narrative. Sure, have at it.
RE: So should Jones been our there or not?  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/3/2021 9:05 pm : link
In comment 15252328 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Because I'm fairly certain he got cleared to play by the medical team. No?


Based on what he looked like and are other option, it's a rock and a hard place.

He got cleared by the medical team in the NFL, you know what that means right? You can't be that naive, unless he was at a reasonable risk of making the injury worse with long term repercussions, they clear you. He clearly was very ineffective because of the injury. I've seen Stafford go out there and catch shit for the same thing.

Some guys are just tougher than others. DJ went out there with a broken collarbone at Duke earlier than anyone expected with normal prognosis. If you suddenly take the mobility away from a young QB and expect him to perform like a seasoned pocket passer with a line that sucks at pass blocking and no skill players, not sure what to tell you.
I just want winning football  
Go Terps : 5/3/2021 9:06 pm : link
I don't give a shit who the quarterback is. Jones has been incapable of doing it to this point. Either make him capable or find someone who is.
RE: RE: RE: RE: And of all threads to choose to make a referendum on Jones...  
Bergen346 : 5/3/2021 9:07 pm : link
In comment 15252346 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 15252323 Bergen346 said:


Quote:


In comment 15252277 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 15252272 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


And you choose this one? Fuck off.



We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.



WillVAB.... this is a serious take? Maybe there is a connection between a player underperforming and fighting an injury that was worse than what everyone thought at the time.

Maybe even the BEST players who have serious injuries underperform because... they’re legitimately injured.....

You make it seems like Judge just made this comment up to cover for Jones. Are you really that cynical? Unreal.



Every year we hear about underperforming Giants playing through injuries after the season. Every year.

Look, I’m completely neutral on Jones right now. He’s shown he can do some things really well and he’s exhibited some major flaws. We’ll see. I want him to succeed because if he succeeds then the Giants succeed. It’s that simple.

That doesn’t mean every fan should bow down and kiss his ass every time Gettleman or Judge gives the media a sound bite.

You know what I like more than a tough QB who tries to play through injuries? A smart QB who knows how to protect himself and avoid injuries so he can play a full season.


I hear ya, but my point has nothing to do with Jones. I’m not trying to defend Jones here.

What I don’t understand is why you think this is fabricated. Don’t you think every NFL team has articles written about players underperforming due to injury? It is not specific to NYG.

And nor should it be. The point I am making is that players DO underperform due to injury, especially if it is severe. That’s probably the single largest reason WHY they underperformed. I just don’t know how you cant see this logic.

Not everything you read is fabricated and designed to cover up a bad draft pick or shitty FA signing. Why can’t you see that?
RE: I just want winning football  
Sean : 5/3/2021 9:07 pm : link
In comment 15252364 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I don't give a shit who the quarterback is. Jones has been incapable of doing it to this point. Either make him capable or find someone who is.

And that’s what this year is.
You know what I like...  
manh george : 5/3/2021 9:09 pm : link
more than a QB who tries to play through injuries?

A QB who tries to play through injuries on a team that isn't in the bottom 20% at ALL OF WR, RB, TE, and OL.

Unlike two people here on either end, I DON'T KNOW how good Jones can be. I DO know that some of his flaws--but not how many-- related to the fact that he was trying to do too much, playing on one of the very worst offenses in the league, and the worst offense the Giants have had in decades.

Think there was a worse one, at all 4 squads combined, than the Giants had early last season? Please name it.
......  
Klaatu : 5/3/2021 9:10 pm : link
You must learn to accept what you cannot change or affect in any way  
LeonBright45 : 5/3/2021 9:10 pm : link
To read some of the posts on this site one might assume that some of you hate the Giants team and organization from top to bottom. Some of you literally hate players, coaches, front office people, owners, etc... Some of you hate the uniforms. Some of you hate the stadium. Some of you hate the Giants more than you love having a team to root for.

Jones is our guy and I will root for him and believe in him until I have reason not to. Some of you are just jumping at the chance to be right in your pessimism and jump on any opportunity to insult our young QB. To those of you who do this constantly, FUCK YOU. You are a bunch of low life pieces of shit. Go root for another team. Go root for the fucking Chargers you turd burglurs. Herbert was known to be lukewarm on football; ready to walk away at any moment. He was chosen #6 in his draft just like Jones. I would argue that Jones had a better rookie year throwing the ball. I can't wait to see DJ with an actual supporting cast.
You must learn to accept what you cannot change or affect in any way  
LeonBright45 : 5/3/2021 9:11 pm : link
To read some of the posts on this site one might assume that some of you hate the Giants team and organization from top to bottom. Some of you literally hate players, coaches, front office people, owners, etc... Some of you hate the uniforms. Some of you hate the stadium. Some of you hate the Giants more than you love having a team to root for.

Jones is our guy and I will root for him and believe in him until I have reason not to. Some of you are just jumping at the chance to be right in your pessimism and jump on any opportunity to insult our young QB. To those of you who do this constantly, FUCK YOU. You are a bunch of low life pieces of shit. Go root for another team. Go root for the fucking Chargers you turd burglurs. Herbert was known to be lukewarm on football; ready to walk away at any moment. He was chosen #6 in his draft just like Jones. I would argue that Jones had a better rookie year throwing the ball. I can't wait to see DJ with an actual supporting cast.
RE: I just want winning football  
LeonBright45 : 5/3/2021 9:12 pm : link
In comment 15252364 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I don't give a shit who the quarterback is. Jones has been incapable of doing it to this point. Either make him capable or find someone who is.


Fuck you
It's a discussion board  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/3/2021 9:15 pm : link
Learn to ignore opinions you don't agree with and you'll live a happier life. Not everyone cares to see things your way.
RE: It's a discussion board  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2021 9:18 pm : link
In comment 15252388 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Learn to ignore opinions you don't agree with and you'll live a happier life. Not everyone cares to see things your way.


The thing is, speaking for myself, I’m completely open to other viewpoints and openly acknowledge all of Jones’ faults and validate those that are concerned.
RE: I just want winning football  
jhibb : 5/3/2021 9:18 pm : link
In comment 15252364 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I don't give a shit who the quarterback is. Jones has been incapable of doing it to this point. Either make him capable or find someone who is.


It really shouldn't be this hard to say you're rooting for the kid, even if only because his doing well drastically affects the chances that we get winning football. And if he does well, the team can keep focusing on improving other areas rather than pouring more resources into the QB position.

When you say you don't care who the quarterback is, it comes off (to me, anyway) that you do care who it is (or isn't). It seems to me that anyone who really wants winning football should be rooting for everyone currently on the team. But maybe that's just me.
RE: RE: So should Jones been our there or not?  
bw in dc : 5/3/2021 9:19 pm : link
In comment 15252359 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15252328 bw in dc said:


Quote:


Because I'm fairly certain he got cleared to play by the medical team. No?



Based on what he looked like and are other option, it's a rock and a hard place.

He got cleared by the medical team in the NFL, you know what that means right? You can't be that naive, unless he was at a reasonable risk of making the injury worse with long term repercussions, they clear you. He clearly was very ineffective because of the injury. I've seen Stafford go out there and catch shit for the same thing.

Some guys are just tougher than others. DJ went out there with a broken collarbone at Duke earlier than anyone expected with normal prognosis. If you suddenly take the mobility away from a young QB and expect him to perform like a seasoned pocket passer with a line that sucks at pass blocking and no skill players, not sure what to tell you.


Then Jones shouldn't have been out there playing if he didn't have the faculties to perform effectively. I've seen other QBs who were hurt but still performed effectively - Favre, Rodgers, Roethliserger, Romo, etc. So someone made a mistake allowing DJ to play. Tough means NOTHING if you are hurting the team. It doesn't get you extra points on the scoreboard.

Despite the horrendous division, we were in the hunt for a division title. So we very likely played the wrong guy for a game or two...
 
ryanmkeane : 5/3/2021 9:19 pm : link
You lose me in any conversation when you compare Phil Simms to Daniel Jones at this point in their careers, and fail to recognize how dumb that is.
RE: ...  
santacruzom : 5/3/2021 9:21 pm : link
In comment 15252222 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Ding, ding, ding.

GT vs. ryanmkeane, round 67589597.


With apologies to Ryan, it's really not much of a fight.
RE: RE: RE: So should Jones been our there or not?  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/3/2021 9:23 pm : link
In comment 15252399 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15252359 Zeke's Alibi said:



Then Jones shouldn't have been out there playing if he didn't have the faculties to perform effectively. I've seen other QBs who were hurt but still performed effectively - Favre, Rodgers, Roethliserger, Romo, etc. So someone made a mistake allowing DJ to play. Tough means NOTHING if you are hurting the team. It doesn't get you extra points on the scoreboard.

Despite the horrendous division, we were in the hunt for a division title. So we very likely played the wrong guy for a game or two...


He shouldn't have, but that's a coaches decision when the QB wants to go. It was on Judge. In fact if you remember McCoy was warming up until DJ led a long TD drive.

I agree, as soon as he was out there, as shitty as McCoy is, he would have been a better option and we could have had a healthier DJ down the stretch. I'm sure that game set him back. One of the few mistakes I think Judge made last year.
Angry lectures from dupes are always amusing  
Greg from LI : 5/3/2021 9:32 pm : link
.
RE: RE: ...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/3/2021 9:39 pm : link
In comment 15252247 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 15252240 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


I agree w/ GT that Judge complimenting DJ is sorta 'Well yeah...what you expect him to say?'

I think us getting a second 1st next year is hedging our bets about DJ long term going forward. Sam Howell anybody?



I dunno, as of last week I remember reading a Terps conspiracy that Judge secretly doesn't like Jones and wants to be rid of him. I would say Judge has a weird way of of trying to hid his true feelings.


He absolutely has said that numerous times. He keeps ignoring the number of times Judge proactively says good things about Judge to loudly proclaim hat he likely wants to "wait out Gettleman" and get rid of Jones.

He's a fucking clown.
RE: Lol Mike  
Mike from Ohio : 5/3/2021 9:43 pm : link
In comment 15252355 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
your typical “both sides” bullshit narrative. Sure, have at it.


You’re right. Terps started this shit. He hadn’t posted on the thread at all but was still called out by another poster, but fuck him, it’s his fault. Brilliant analysis of the situation.
RE: RE: RE: RE: And of all threads to choose to make a referendum on Jones...  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/3/2021 9:43 pm : link
In comment 15252308 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 15252289 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15252277 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 15252272 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


And you choose this one? Fuck off.



We hear this shit every year with underperforming players. Next there will be a fluff piece on Thomas playing through two broken ankles last year.



👆

Just an attention whore trying to carve out some space for himself now that even those of us who have been quick to criticize DG are feeling good about the draft.



Attention whore? Why don’t you give the board another lecture about how Omameh and Toilolo are going to ruin the Giants salary cap?

Omameh was a horrific signing - there's no denying that and it DID have negative cap ramifications that lasted for multiple years, including restructuring Rhett Ellison, which resulted in carrying dead money beyond Ellison's retirement, and also restructuring Nate Solder, which presented a less favorable negotiation with Solder this offseason when the Giants were negotiating against Solder's dead money value. Both of those outcomes are undeniable. The net impact of the downstream implications of the Omameh signing is something that is worth discussing - fortunately we find ourselves here on a message board to do exactly that. And even more fortunately, the Giants navigated through that bad signing eventually. But it was still a terrible contract.

Toilolo was a poor signing last year - he was paid too much to play too little and his snap count is clear evidence that he didn't quite fit what the team wanted to do offensively. He seemed like an easy cut this offseason, and - despite the incredibly creative and successful job that DG/KA/KOB did this offseason - I'm still not sure why they didn't just release him outright, especially since Rudolph was one of their primary FA targets. They were in prime position to narrow their TE group to Evan Engram, Kaden Smith, and Kyle Rudolph, leaving open a slot for a cheap 4th TE who might contribute on specials. Keeping Toilolo and guaranteeing any of his money instead of releasing him entirely for free was an error, IMO.

I happen to disagree with this move. And I happen to also believe that there's a good chance that it will create unnecessary dead money on the 2022 cap because of the guaranteed money that they gave Toilolo in the restructure. That dead money won't be especially significant in and of itself, but it will still be emblematic of a front office approach that does still have a blind spot when it comes to those small details and does still treat dead money like it's just the cost of doing business (we still see early outs baked into this year's FA contracts, which which will invite dead money and eliminate comp draft picks if those contracts do not reach maturity), rather than protecting against that liability.

This year, part of the reason for assuming dead money risk was an effort to stretch every dollar to maximize the free agent class - it's hard to argue with that approach if it pays dividends in the standings. But if it doesn't? Then last year's tactic of utilizing roster bonuses instead of signing bonuses to reduce dead money risk will prove to have been the more successful approach.

Still, I don't think I need to apologize to anyone or the board in general for understanding the mechanisms of the cap rather than just pointing to future years and claiming that there was no rain in the forecast. The Giants absolutely borrowed against those future years' flexibility this offseason, and that's not something they had done quite so aggressively before. I'm excited about the players they brought in and the way that they commanded free agency this year, and I also recognize that they assumed a fair bit of risk in the process.

Having said all that, I don't think this has to be binary. I think it's perfectly fair to support the team's overall direction and still be a vocal critic of individual moves as they occur. I know that doesn't necessarily align with the way that many of us view BBI's aisle, but I'm going to give it a shot.

I still maintain that there are moments where even a fan can identify efficiencies that a front office doesn't utilize. I don't know whether that's due to so many moving parts or favors to agents or - as I'm realizing this offseason - the possibility that contracts can be structured in such a fashion as to effectively represent cap room carryover for a fringe player in order to free up space at a later date, as needed (note that I still don't love this approach, as with Toilolo, because cap room can be carried over free and clear of dead money for one year).

Ultimately, here's my take: I realized a while ago that our front office doesn't know everything and they're still figuring it out as they go - it has bothered me tremendously to watch them make mistakes while the team continued to struggle for years now. But I'll also admit that my ego got in the way of my realizing that I also don't know everything and I'm figuring it out as THEY go.

They're doing much better this year, but they're far from a finished product. And I sure as hell don't know everything I'd need to know in order to articulate with certainty every single thing that I wish they'd do instead. I'm going to keep on describing what I think they could have done, and I'm also going to keep on being excited about things that make me happy as a Giants fan.

Care to counter?
RE: RE: RE: So should Jones been our there or not?  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2021 9:49 pm : link
In comment 15252399 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15252359 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


In comment 15252328 bw in dc said:


Quote:


Because I'm fairly certain he got cleared to play by the medical team. No?



Based on what he looked like and are other option, it's a rock and a hard place.

He got cleared by the medical team in the NFL, you know what that means right? You can't be that naive, unless he was at a reasonable risk of making the injury worse with long term repercussions, they clear you. He clearly was very ineffective because of the injury. I've seen Stafford go out there and catch shit for the same thing.

Some guys are just tougher than others. DJ went out there with a broken collarbone at Duke earlier than anyone expected with normal prognosis. If you suddenly take the mobility away from a young QB and expect him to perform like a seasoned pocket passer with a line that sucks at pass blocking and no skill players, not sure what to tell you.



Then Jones shouldn't have been out there playing if he didn't have the faculties to perform effectively. I've seen other QBs who were hurt but still performed effectively - Favre, Rodgers, Roethliserger, Romo, etc. So someone made a mistake allowing DJ to play. Tough means NOTHING if you are hurting the team. It doesn't get you extra points on the scoreboard.

Despite the horrendous division, we were in the hunt for a division title. So we very likely played the wrong guy for a game or two...


And neither should Eli have been out there against the Packers in Week 2 2007.. He threw like a girl, according to Strahan. And he couldn’t throw it more than 5-10 yards.

And they lost. Blown out. But he earned the team’s respect that day. Including the cynical Strahan. And then Strahan mentioned him in his HOF speech despite only playing with him 3 years.

It matters.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: And of all threads to choose to make a referendum on Jones...  
Jay on the Island : 5/3/2021 9:50 pm : link
In comment 15252432 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:

I happen to disagree with this move. And I happen to also believe that there's a good chance that it will create unnecessary dead money on the 2022 cap because of the guaranteed money that they gave Toilolo in the restructure. That dead money won't be especially significant in and of itself, but it will still be emblematic of a front office approach that does still have a blind spot when it comes to those small details and does still treat dead money like it's just the cost of doing business (we still see early outs baked into this year's FA contracts, which which will invite dead money and eliminate comp draft picks if those contracts do not reach maturity), rather than protecting against that liability.

This year, part of the reason for assuming dead money risk was an effort to stretch every dollar to maximize the free agent class - it's hard to argue with that approach if it pays dividends in the standings. But if it doesn't? Then last year's tactic of utilizing roster bonuses instead of signing bonuses to reduce dead money risk will prove to have been the more successful approach.

Still, I don't think I need to apologize to anyone or the board in general for understanding the mechanisms of the cap rather than just pointing to future years and claiming that there was no rain in the forecast. The Giants absolutely borrowed against those future years' flexibility this offseason, and that's not something they had done quite so aggressively before. I'm excited about the players they brought in and the way that they commanded free agency this year, and I also recognize that they assumed a fair bit of risk in the process.

Having said all that, I don't think this has to be binary. I think it's perfectly fair to support the team's overall direction and still be a vocal critic of individual moves as they occur. I know that doesn't necessarily align with the way that many of us view BBI's aisle, but I'm going to give it a shot.

I still maintain that there are moments where even a fan can identify efficiencies that a front office doesn't utilize. I don't know whether that's due to so many moving parts or favors to agents or - as I'm realizing this offseason - the possibility that contracts can be structured in such a fashion as to effectively represent cap room carryover for a fringe player in order to free up space at a later date, as needed (note that I still don't love this approach, as with Toilolo, because cap room can be carried over free and clear of dead money for one year).



There is no dead money for Toilolo next year if the Giants cut him this season. Even after the pay cut they would save $1 million in cap room this year by releasing him. This assumption that he is a roster lock this season is a bit puzzling to me. IMO I think that the Giants will carry 3 TE's, unless Rudolph misses the beginning of the season, with Kaden Smith as the 3rd TE.
Mike  
ryanmkeane : 5/3/2021 9:50 pm : link
again, you aren't reading this situation correctly, at all.

I have said this is the year for Jones. Improve or we look at another solution. Be better, especially that we have a lot more weapons and the OL should hopefully improve at a nice level.

I'm not really sure when BBI changed it's opinion on the development of franchise quarterbacks, possibly a few years ago, but basically now, you need to be very good immediately or you're a bust. Perhaps it is the age we live in now. Look around the league. The quarterbacks who have been in this league for 10-12 years are struggled at first. And guess why? Because you are young and likely on a team that isn't good at first. That's the way football works.

I mean, we just had Terps say that Jones "isn't Phil Simms" - and the irony of that statement is that Jones looks a lot more impressive than Simms did, and it isn't really close.

BBI also has this thing now with "30 TD" - I imagine this was started by Terps, in fact I think it was. The irony of that statement is that plenty of QBs that Terps and others would want instead of Daniel Jones have been in the league longer than him, and usually end up in the mid or high 20s in TDs.

There is absolutely zero nuance or room for discussion on this board on how the SITUATION matters when it comes to a franchise QB. Gee - what happened when Eli Manning's OL started to gel finally and we got him some weapons? We went on a really nice run from 2007-2011.
The fumbles were concerning during his rookie season  
Jay on the Island : 5/3/2021 9:56 pm : link
But it still surprises me how so many Giants fans forget or don't realize how well Daniel Jones played during his rookie season. That was with a poor OL, no Barkley for most of it, and a weak, injury depleted WR corps. I went into last season expecting Jones to break out but he really was disappointing for much of it.

I am in full support of giving Jones this season to prove himself now that he has finally has legit weapons to throw to. If he shits the bed this season the Giants have ample draft capital to move up if needed to get their next QB. If Jones steps up then the Giants are in great shape moving forward.
There are a few posters  
ryanmkeane : 5/3/2021 9:56 pm : link
who are not willing to develop a quarterback. These same posters lived through Eli Manning and Phil Simms, so I'm not entirely sure why the narrative has changed all of a sudden.

Yeah, Manning was a clear cut #1 pick. A lot more pure "talent" than Jones. But, if you ask me my actual opinion, Jones has looked like a better NFL quarterback than Eli Manning did through 2 seasons.

And no, I'm not saying Jones is going to become Eli, be as good as Eli at his peak, or two super bowls and MVPs. I'm just saying, he's further along.
RE: RE: RE: RE: So should Jones been our there or not?  
bw in dc : 5/3/2021 10:04 pm : link
In comment 15252438 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15252399 bw in dc said:



Then Jones shouldn't have been out there playing if he didn't have the faculties to perform effectively. I've seen other QBs who were hurt but still performed effectively - Favre, Rodgers, Roethliserger, Romo, etc. So someone made a mistake allowing DJ to play. Tough means NOTHING if you are hurting the team. It doesn't get you extra points on the scoreboard.

Despite the horrendous division, we were in the hunt for a division title. So we very likely played the wrong guy for a game or two...



And neither should Eli have been out there against the Packers in Week 2 2007.. He threw like a girl, according to Strahan. And he couldn’t throw it more than 5-10 yards.

And they lost. Blown out. But he earned the team’s respect that day. Including the cynical Strahan. And then Strahan mentioned him in his HOF speech despite only playing with him 3 years.

It matters.


Not buying the romance in just being tough. You need to perform and win as well, especially if you are the QB. Otherwise, you are hurting the team.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: And of all threads to choose to make a referendum on Jones...  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/3/2021 10:04 pm : link
In comment 15252440 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 15252432 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:



I happen to disagree with this move. And I happen to also believe that there's a good chance that it will create unnecessary dead money on the 2022 cap because of the guaranteed money that they gave Toilolo in the restructure. That dead money won't be especially significant in and of itself, but it will still be emblematic of a front office approach that does still have a blind spot when it comes to those small details and does still treat dead money like it's just the cost of doing business (we still see early outs baked into this year's FA contracts, which which will invite dead money and eliminate comp draft picks if those contracts do not reach maturity), rather than protecting against that liability.

This year, part of the reason for assuming dead money risk was an effort to stretch every dollar to maximize the free agent class - it's hard to argue with that approach if it pays dividends in the standings. But if it doesn't? Then last year's tactic of utilizing roster bonuses instead of signing bonuses to reduce dead money risk will prove to have been the more successful approach.

Still, I don't think I need to apologize to anyone or the board in general for understanding the mechanisms of the cap rather than just pointing to future years and claiming that there was no rain in the forecast. The Giants absolutely borrowed against those future years' flexibility this offseason, and that's not something they had done quite so aggressively before. I'm excited about the players they brought in and the way that they commanded free agency this year, and I also recognize that they assumed a fair bit of risk in the process.

Having said all that, I don't think this has to be binary. I think it's perfectly fair to support the team's overall direction and still be a vocal critic of individual moves as they occur. I know that doesn't necessarily align with the way that many of us view BBI's aisle, but I'm going to give it a shot.

I still maintain that there are moments where even a fan can identify efficiencies that a front office doesn't utilize. I don't know whether that's due to so many moving parts or favors to agents or - as I'm realizing this offseason - the possibility that contracts can be structured in such a fashion as to effectively represent cap room carryover for a fringe player in order to free up space at a later date, as needed (note that I still don't love this approach, as with Toilolo, because cap room can be carried over free and clear of dead money for one year).





There is no dead money for Toilolo next year if the Giants cut him this season. Even after the pay cut they would save $1 million in cap room this year by releasing him. This assumption that he is a roster lock this season is a bit puzzling to me. IMO I think that the Giants will carry 3 TE's, unless Rudolph misses the beginning of the season, with Kaden Smith as the 3rd TE.

Cutting Toilolo will carve into operating space for this season, which - as we saw with the dead money purge of 2019 - can often trigger restructures of other contracts in order to stay on track.

It's not just the direct dead money impact of each contract that needs to be considered. It can sometimes be the ripple effect of dead money that causes other moves (that also represent dead money impact themselves) that causes the damage. I realize that this can't always be avoided, and that it's easy for a fan to point out primary, secondary, and tertiary dead money liabilities, but I throw it out there as I see it because if I can identify it, then someone like Kevin Abrams - who many fans consider an astute cap manager - must be able to identify it as well.

As it relates to Toilolo: personally, I will very rarely be in favor of hanging onto vested veterans who will be 3rd or lower on the depth chart at any position. The marginal value of a veteran's contribution in such a minimal role is not worth the assumption of full-season guaranteed money simply for having them make the team. And gift-wrapping enough guaranteed money to a roster-bubble vested veteran that it becomes increasingly likely that they make the final cut is just openly inefficient, IMO.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: So should Jones been our there or not?  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2021 10:05 pm : link
In comment 15252465 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15252438 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 15252399 bw in dc said:



Then Jones shouldn't have been out there playing if he didn't have the faculties to perform effectively. I've seen other QBs who were hurt but still performed effectively - Favre, Rodgers, Roethliserger, Romo, etc. So someone made a mistake allowing DJ to play. Tough means NOTHING if you are hurting the team. It doesn't get you extra points on the scoreboard.

Despite the horrendous division, we were in the hunt for a division title. So we very likely played the wrong guy for a game or two...



And neither should Eli have been out there against the Packers in Week 2 2007.. He threw like a girl, according to Strahan. And he couldn’t throw it more than 5-10 yards.

And they lost. Blown out. But he earned the team’s respect that day. Including the cynical Strahan. And then Strahan mentioned him in his HOF speech despite only playing with him 3 years.

It matters.



Not buying the romance in just being tough. You need to perform and win as well, especially if you are the QB. Otherwise, you are hurting the team.


That wasn’t the point and you know it.
bw  
ryanmkeane : 5/3/2021 10:06 pm : link
yeah...everyone agrees with that. i'm not sure why you guys keep saying things like "Jones is hurting the team with his play."

No shit. He was a 2nd year QB and made a lot of mistakes. Just like every quarterback to ever live save for a few of them.
RE: The fumbles were concerning during his rookie season  
BSIMatt : 5/3/2021 10:30 pm : link
In comment 15252453 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
But it still surprises me how so many Giants fans forget or don't realize how well Daniel Jones played during his rookie season. That was with a poor OL, no Barkley for most of it, and a weak, injury depleted WR corps. I went into last season expecting Jones to break out but he really was disappointing for much of it.

I am in full support of giving Jones this season to prove himself now that he has finally has legit weapons to throw to. If he shits the bed this season the Giants have ample draft capital to move up if needed to get their next QB. If Jones steps up then the Giants are in great shape moving forward.


This is exactly the part I don't understand. It's like having blinders on. On one hand Eli earned it, but look at the Giant offense Eli's second year, 2005 and compare it to the 2020 Giants. Giants went out and added Plax, McKenzie, to a team with an all pro caliber runningback in Barber, an elite weapon at TE in Shockey, and Amani Toomer. Not saying that to discredit Eli, I'm a huge Eli fan, but from the vantage point of watching Eli grow as a player through the years, Giants offense was put in an impossible situation last year based on the state of the offensive line and skill group, that skill group required Barkley's presence, that is what it our offense was designed around. We traded Beckham, our last #1WR, replaced him with an aging Golden Tate and basically said this is going to be Barkley's team and these other pieces will serve to compliment him. That plan blew up in the Giants face last year, and they pivoted accordingly this offseason.
RE: You must learn to accept what you cannot change or affect in any way  
santacruzom : 5/3/2021 10:31 pm : link
In comment 15252379 LeonBright45 said:
Quote:
Herbert was known to be lukewarm on football; ready to walk away at any moment.


Man, that is one strong shot of hyperbole!
Jones's rookie season wasn't good  
Go Terps : 5/3/2021 10:39 pm : link
12 starts, only 4 games with a passer rating above the league average. 3-9 record, led league in fumbles.

Jones's rookie season is a BBI myth.
No one ever questioned DJs toughness.  
trueblueinpw : 5/3/2021 10:40 pm : link
He practiced at Duke like 9 days after surgery on his collarbone. Played the rest of the season. Tough as nails. No doubt about it. Knew this coming into the NFL. Tough as a $2 steak. Smart kid. Works hard. We knew all this coming from Duke.

Tough as he is, with all the hard, and all the desire, questions remain about his processing and decisions on the field. Want it bad and try hard and hard work from morning till night just aren’t enough. Sorry, it’s just the way it works. Gotta win. Gotta make big plays. Toughness in the NFL is table stakes. He’s got all the weapons and tools to succeed in the NFL. Let’s fucking go DJ8!
RE: There are a few posters  
santacruzom : 5/3/2021 10:42 pm : link
In comment 15252454 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
who are not willing to develop a quarterback.


I think it's more a matter of a few posters who don't believe that Jones automatically qualifies as a "developmental quarterback."
RE: RE: You must learn to accept what you cannot change or affect in any way  
LeonBright45 : 5/3/2021 10:42 pm : link
In comment 15252517 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 15252379 LeonBright45 said:


Quote:


Herbert was known to be lukewarm on football; ready to walk away at any moment.



Man, that is one strong shot of hyperbole!


Nope. Go back a read if you are capable. Many thought that the kid just didn't care much for football. Many questioned his dedication to the game and his passion as a player. They thought he didn't care. Last year he showed otherwise.
RE: RE: There are a few posters  
LeonBright45 : 5/3/2021 10:45 pm : link
In comment 15252538 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 15252454 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


who are not willing to develop a quarterback.












I think it's more a matter of a few posters who don't believe that Jones automatically qualifies as a "developmental quarterback."



^^Most idiotic post of the day^^
I would enjoy Jones while you can  
Go Terps : 5/3/2021 10:51 pm : link
Before this weekend I was worried he'd get both 2021 and 2022 to prove he's something other than what he's shown in five years of college and pro football.

Trading for Chicago's first rounder put that notion to bed. Either he becomes a productive quarterback for the first time in...ever...or it's good night the lights on the three year mistake.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: So should Jones been our there or not?  
bw in dc : 5/3/2021 10:51 pm : link
In comment 15252470 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15252465 bw in dc said:

Not buying the romance in just being tough. You need to perform and win as well, especially if you are the QB. Otherwise, you are hurting the team.


That wasn’t the point and you know it.


I understand your point, but I'm just not buying it.

In the national semis between Ohio State/Clemson, Fields took a brutal, cheap shot from LB Skalski. Skalski rightfully got tossed.

I remember thinking there wasn't any way Fields was going to finish the game. I thought he was so hurt he wouldn't be able to play the rest of the year.

But he dug deep, managed the agony, and threw three more TD passes against Clemson (he finished with six) to lead OSU to a dominant W. That's being tough and still being productive...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: So should Jones been our there or not?  
LeonBright45 : 5/3/2021 10:56 pm : link
In comment 15252556 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15252470 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 15252465 bw in dc said:

Not buying the romance in just being tough. You need to perform and win as well, especially if you are the QB. Otherwise, you are hurting the team.


That wasn’t the point and you know it.



I understand your point, but I'm just not buying it.

In the national semis between Ohio State/Clemson, Fields took a brutal, cheap shot from LB Skalski. Skalski rightfully got tossed.

I remember thinking there wasn't any way Fields was going to finish the game. I thought he was so hurt he wouldn't be able to play the rest of the year.

But he dug deep, managed the agony, and threw three more TD passes against Clemson (he finished with six) to lead OSU to a dominant W. That's being tough and still being productive...


So go root for the Bears. You need a team that makes decisions you can get onboard with.
RE: RE: RE: There are a few posters  
santacruzom : 5/3/2021 11:05 pm : link
In comment 15252542 LeonBright45 said:
Quote:
In comment 15252538 santacruzom said:


Quote:


In comment 15252454 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


who are not willing to develop a quarterback.












I think it's more a matter of a few posters who don't believe that Jones automatically qualifies as a "developmental quarterback."




^^Most idiotic post of the day^^


Don't be am ass. It's way too obtuse to label Jones' critics as people who just think a QB should immediately be stellar and never have to develop their skills.

I'd say they just don't think he'll put it together and be elite. It's a common tale that we've seen with dozens of QBs. Why should freaking Daniel Jones of all people be exempt from this concern?
Yeah ok Joe  
HomerJones45 : 5/3/2021 11:05 pm : link
Jesus you people will believe anything.
RE: RE: RE: You must learn to accept what you cannot change or affect in any way  
santacruzom : 5/3/2021 11:08 pm : link
In comment 15252539 LeonBright45 said:
Quote:
In comment 15252517 santacruzom said:


Quote:


In comment 15252379 LeonBright45 said:


Quote:


Herbert was known to be lukewarm on football; ready to walk away at any moment.



Man, that is one strong shot of hyperbole!



Nope. Go back a read if you are capable. Many thought that the kid just didn't care much for football. Many questioned his dedication to the game and his passion as a player. They thought he didn't care. Last year he showed otherwise.


There is a vast chasm between some (not "many") wondering if he was dedicated to football, and it being KNOWN that he was lukewarm.

Some people have wondered if Lawrence is passionate about football, by the way. My guess is they are idiots who work for a potential doormat of a team.
Terps  
ryanmkeane : 5/3/2021 11:21 pm : link
you can root for the Bears this year. We will enjoy the Giants every Sunday.
...  
christian : 5/3/2021 11:23 pm : link
I’m a little disappointed the staff and trainers let Jones play then.

The Giants looked pretty damn good vs. Seattle, then Jones came back and got absolutely demolished vs. the Cards. It was fish in barrel out there.

Love me some Judge, but yikes. If Jones was IR worthy, they got him beat like a bag out there. Maybe McCoy doesn’t get hit like a tee ball all game.
RE: ...  
santacruzom : 5/3/2021 11:24 pm : link
In comment 15252621 christian said:
Quote:


The Giants looked pretty damn good vs. Seattle, then Jones came back and got absolutely demolished vs. the Cards. It was fish in barrel out there.

Love me some Judge, but yikes. If Jones was IR worthy, they got him beat like a bag out there. Maybe McCoy doesn’t get hit like a tee ball all game.


Yeah, Judge nearly makes it sound like the team pulled a Shanahan/RG III.
Listened to a PFF podcast yesterday  
BSIMatt : 5/3/2021 11:25 pm : link
They were going over best bets for NFL futures, they led with Giants to win the NFC East(not as a projection, but as a great value bet as Giants currently held 3rd best odds at +400). The one guy says that’ll happen if Jones shows a modicum of improvement. The other guy refers to Jones as a top half of the league quarterback.

PFF has been consistently anti Gettleman. Ripped the Barkley pick, crushed the Jones pick, referring to him as a 3rd round qb.

Never thought I’d see the day where PFF liked the Giants QB more than Giants fans did.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 5/3/2021 11:30 pm : link
In comment 15252629 santacruzom said:
Quote:
Love me some Judge, but yikes. If Jones was IR worthy, they got him beat like a bag out there. Maybe McCoy doesn’t get hit like a tee ball all game.



Yeah, Judge nearly makes it sound like the team pulled a Shanahan/RG III.


Against both Arizona and Baltimore, Jones was a piñata. The Giants grab one those games and they are in the tournament.

This is one of those things that seems like something good happened, then you give it any amount of thought and you realize something terribly stupid actually occurred.
RE: Terps  
Go Terps : 5/3/2021 11:35 pm : link
In comment 15252619 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
you can root for the Bears this year. We will enjoy the Giants every Sunday.


I'll root for the Giants too - the difference is I don't make shit up to make them seem better than they are.

If Jones played for the Eagles everyone on this board would say he sucks, and be relieved that he is their problem. And that would be a fair take. But because he's here we've had to listen to months of bullshit about how his first two seasons have been something other than terrible...and if you disagree, it makes you a bad fan.

I see it differently. What kind of fan are you when you say things like "Jones is farther along in year 2 than Eli was"? I think that makes you delusional.

I'll be right there rooting for the Giants; I just won't be delusional as I do it.
Terps  
ryanmkeane : 5/3/2021 11:39 pm : link
you really don’t know how ridiculous you sound.

If Eli Manning played for the Eagles for his first three years, we would have been laughing them out of the building every single game.

You realize that these arguments you create into a vacuum only are for Daniel Jones? And not for any other player in the history of the NFL?

Daniel Jones has been the quarterback for two years. You are the only person on this website who thinks that’s enough time. And to be frank - Joe Judge knows a lot more about football than you do about anything. As does Dave Gettleman, as does John Mara.
...  
christian : 5/3/2021 11:46 pm : link
If Jones delivers a big year, doesn’t turn the ball over a bunch, wins some big games, and the Giants win more games than they lose — it’ll be a huge accomplishment and much improved from his first two years.

Why acknowledging that is sensibility offending, is so bizarre to me.
RE: ...  
ryanmkeane : 5/3/2021 11:48 pm : link
In comment 15252666 christian said:
Quote:
If Jones delivers a big year, doesn’t turn the ball over a bunch, wins some big games, and the Giants win more games than they lose — it’ll be a huge accomplishment and much improved from his first two years.

Why acknowledging that is sensibility offending, is so bizarre to me.

Because there are posters here who think they should be the GM of the team, that’s why
RE: ...  
Go Terps : 5/3/2021 11:49 pm : link
In comment 15252666 christian said:
Quote:
If Jones delivers a big year, doesn’t turn the ball over a bunch, wins some big games, and the Giants win more games than they lose — it’ll be a huge accomplishment and much improved from his first two years.

Why acknowledging that is sensibility offending, is so bizarre to me.


Because lots of people spent money on #8 jerseys.
I give Jones a lot of credit for going out there vs ARZ.  
Jimmy Googs : 5/3/2021 11:52 pm : link
Tough son of a bitch.

But out of all the communications that I like from Judge, this one just portrays lack of good judgment. They may have likely lost with the backup QB too but they were never going to have a chance with DJ that day.

Hey, rookie HC’s make bad decisions too. And this was one of them...
...  
christian : 5/4/2021 12:00 am : link
Jones has had two, roughly three game streaks where he’s played reasonably well. He’s either been hurt or pretty underwhelming in the balance.

If he plays well this year, it’ll be a huge leap. It’s not a foregone conclusion.
And Judge and Garrett damn well better get Glennon  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2021 12:00 am : link
ready to play if and when he is called upon.

The days of Eli Manning being available are gone...
Jones has started 26 games  
Go Terps : 5/4/2021 12:07 am : link
2019 - 4 starts with passer rating over league average
2020 - 3 starts with passer rating over league average

In 32 games since they drafted him with the 6th pick overall, the Giants have gotten 7 above average passing performances from Jones.

7/32 = 26.9% of Jones's starts have been above average



*One mistake...7/26 = 26.9% is Jones's good starts  
Go Terps : 5/4/2021 12:10 am : link
7/32 = 21.9% is the percentage of all the games since Jones was drafted that he's provided an above league average passer rating.
Passer rating  
BSIMatt : 5/4/2021 12:40 am : link
Crack research right there.
RE: RE: ...  
santacruzom : 5/4/2021 12:42 am : link
In comment 15252667 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 15252666 christian said:


Quote:


If Jones delivers a big year, doesn’t turn the ball over a bunch, wins some big games, and the Giants win more games than they lose — it’ll be a huge accomplishment and much improved from his first two years.

Why acknowledging that is sensibility offending, is so bizarre to me.


Because there are posters here who think they should be the GM of the team, that’s why


No one thinks that. Do you always go right for the most absurd interpretation of a position you disagree with?
RE: Passer rating  
Go Terps : 5/4/2021 12:55 am : link
In comment 15252692 BSIMatt said:
Quote:
Crack research right there.


So we can't use passer rating, we can't use AY/A, we can't use overall W/L record...what can we use to ascertain how well a quarterback is playing? I know a lot of people point to Jones's 24 TD passes as a rookie...why can we use that but not the other stats that take everything else into account?
RE: Mike  
santacruzom : 5/4/2021 12:59 am : link
In comment 15252441 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:


I mean, we just had Terps say that Jones "isn't Phil Simms" - and the irony of that statement is that Jones looks a lot more impressive than Simms did, and it isn't really close.


Jones looks a lot more impressive than many past QBs who are HOF. Compare his first two years' worth of starts to Joe Montana's. More impressive.

Of course, same could be said of many QBs who started with promise but also equal cause for concern, and never managed to develop their skills and/or diminish their warts enough. Josh Freeman comes to mind.

You act as though being skeptical of Jones' ability to become a consistently winning, elite QB is a slap in the face to the entire concept of QB development. It's not... it's simply considering that he may be among the many young QBs in history who just *don't* develop.
I’m just here for the Patrick Omameh discussion. No opinion on Jones.  
Big Blue Blogger : 5/4/2021 5:46 am : link
The 2019 Giants had a ghastly 28% of their cap allocated to dead money. That’s not even taking into account the 12% allocated to a washed-up QB who lost his job after two games, or the additional 12% divided between a left tackle and inside linebacker who were overpaid even before they fell into a hole.

In this wave of red ink, Patrick Omameh’s accelerated dead money was a ripple, consuming 1.5% of the 2019 cap. His cap number the previous year was 1.4%, on a team that allocated nearly 25% to dead money. His cap impact was modestly consequential, but it was a VERY small part of the overall problem.

Omameh was a horrid signing because he stunk. The contract was the least of it
RE: RE: RE: RE: There are a few posters  
LeonBright45 : 5/4/2021 6:42 am : link
In comment 15252571 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 15252542 LeonBright45 said:


Quote:


In comment 15252538 santacruzom said:


Quote:


In comment 15252454 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


who are not willing to develop a quarterback.












I think it's more a matter of a few posters who don't believe that Jones automatically qualifies as a "developmental quarterback."




^^Most idiotic post of the day^^



Don't be am ass. It's way too obtuse to label Jones' critics as people who just think a QB should immediately be stellar and never have to develop their skills.

I'd say they just don't think he'll put it together and be elite. It's a common tale that we've seen with dozens of QBs. Why should freaking Daniel Jones of all people be exempt from this concern?


I bet you believe every QB will never 'put it together and be elite" until the time actually comes and then you stand up on your chair and scream that you knew he could do it all along. It's truly despicable how some of you berate a young QB. Go root for another team if you see a QB that meets your standards and criteria. I won't miss having to read your bullshit opinions. The coaches and most of the fans are behind Daniel Jones. You miserable bastards should go find a new hobby or rededicate yourself to an old one that made you bitter in life.
RE: I would enjoy Jones while you can  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/4/2021 7:20 am : link
In comment 15252554 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Before this weekend I was worried he'd get both 2021 and 2022 to prove he's something other than what he's shown in five years of college and pro football.

Trading for Chicago's first rounder put that notion to bed. Either he becomes a productive quarterback for the first time in...ever...or it's good night the lights on the three year mistake.


At least some of us will enjoy him....
This was a thread...  
Brown_Hornet : 5/4/2021 7:32 am : link
...about the respect that coach Judge has for DJ.

Just saying...~
Ryan  
Mike from Ohio : 5/4/2021 7:35 am : link
I am not reading any situation wrong. I have an opinion that differs from yours, which you seem to view as being a result of not understanding things as welll as you. When you post, all you do is fight to convince people that you are correct. You don’t listen, and there is no nuance in your opinion. If someone looks at Jones’ body of work in college and the pros and sees consistent red flags that don’t see to be improving, you tell them they are idiots. You are entitled to your opinion like every one else. But when you couple it with constant posts arguing with everyone who dare disagree, and do it by denigrating them, you come across as a close minded boob.

There are other posters on this site that think Jones is garbage. Some of them do the same thing you do. And you all post so much, and quote each other so much, these threads are unreadable for anyone with a different view. I know this is “Both sides” in your lexicon, but if you can’t see that 80% of these threads are the same posters making the same point on every thread, I don’t know what to tell you.

You are not going to convince Terps that Jones is a good QB. He is not going to convince you Jones is a bust. Yet your back and forth is impossible to see past because you both seem to crave the other’s approval. It’s really fucking boring.

You and Terps are Fox Nexs and MSNBC. The two screaming extremes on the fringes. Unfortunately your ridiculous squabbles are destroying actual discussion for the rest of us.

I’ve said my peace and I am done with this shit. Jones is a third rail topic I no longer want to discuss on this board because intelligent conversation on the topic is dead here.
It's all a lot of bullshit  
Bill L : 5/4/2021 7:45 am : link
Truth is that *nobody* on this board knows what Jones will be and most don't really know what he is now. What they have is a belief their head born of their own misconception of their evaluative abilities, wed to a narcissistic stubbornness that forces them to wrap, hyperbolize, or ignore every small piece of information so that it fits the conclusion that they had in their heard before even hearing the name "Daniel Jones".
RE: RE: I would enjoy Jones while you can  
Go Terps : 5/4/2021 7:48 am : link
In comment 15252755 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15252554 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Before this weekend I was worried he'd get both 2021 and 2022 to prove he's something other than what he's shown in five years of college and pro football.

Trading for Chicago's first rounder put that notion to bed. Either he becomes a productive quarterback for the first time in...ever...or it's good night the lights on the three year mistake.



At least some of us will enjoy him....


There's been next to nothing to enjoy to this point. And enjoying bad football doesn't make you a better fan...it's a weird thing to carry as a badge of honor.
At least as of today, there is no "bad football";  
Bill L : 5/4/2021 7:50 am : link
there is no "good football".

Like with Daniel Jones himself, with this or any other team, we have Schrodinger's cat.
RE: Ryan  
Klaatu : 5/4/2021 7:52 am : link
In comment 15252764 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
I am not reading any situation wrong. I have an opinion that differs from yours, which you seem to view as being a result of not understanding things as welll as you. When you post, all you do is fight to convince people that you are correct. You don’t listen, and there is no nuance in your opinion. If someone looks at Jones’ body of work in college and the pros and sees consistent red flags that don’t see to be improving, you tell them they are idiots. You are entitled to your opinion like every one else. But when you couple it with constant posts arguing with everyone who dare disagree, and do it by denigrating them, you come across as a close minded boob.

There are other posters on this site that think Jones is garbage. Some of them do the same thing you do. And you all post so much, and quote each other so much, these threads are unreadable for anyone with a different view. I know this is “Both sides” in your lexicon, but if you can’t see that 80% of these threads are the same posters making the same point on every thread, I don’t know what to tell you.

You are not going to convince Terps that Jones is a good QB. He is not going to convince you Jones is a bust. Yet your back and forth is impossible to see past because you both seem to crave the other’s approval. It’s really fucking boring.

You and Terps are Fox Nexs and MSNBC. The two screaming extremes on the fringes. Unfortunately your ridiculous squabbles are destroying actual discussion for the rest of us.

I’ve said my peace and I am done with this shit. Jones is a third rail topic I no longer want to discuss on this board because intelligent conversation on the topic is dead here.


Wow cutting edge stuff.  
mittenedman : 5/4/2021 7:52 am : link
Either Jones plays well and keeps his job, or doesn't, and loses it.

Brilliant!
Did BW really compare a bruise to two actual serious injuries  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/4/2021 7:52 am : link
Jesus fucking Christ. You’d think he was bleeding internally the way he talks about that play. He got a bruise and got shot up so he could deal with it later. He was fine. Somehow these two things are comparable.
RE: Did BW really compare a bruise to two actual serious injuries  
Bill L : 5/4/2021 7:57 am : link
In comment 15252782 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
Jesus fucking Christ. You’d think he was bleeding internally the way he talks about that play. He got a bruise and got shot up so he could deal with it later. He was fine. Somehow these two things are comparable.


I think one of the first virtues that is generally sacrificed to make a point is compassion.
At this point, I'm just rooting for Jones to spite the BBI haters  
Heisenberg : 5/4/2021 8:13 am : link
I'm dubious that he'll ever be consistent enough to be a winner, but the number of people who like to pretend he hasn't had any good games that show long term promise.

So, here's to us still being here in 2033 and Terps still hating on DJ! :)
Mike  
ryanmkeane : 5/4/2021 8:13 am : link
wrong again.

I point out the complete and utter contradictory statements that Terps makes when it comes to Jones. He says things like “let’s go get Matt Stafford” or “Jones isn’t Phil Simms.”

He’s comparing apples to oranges, and seemingly doesn’t realize this.

You guys think I’m some homer loser who doesn’t criticize and doesn’t call a situation for what it is. I’ve said this a million fucking time dude: this is the year for Jones and this is the year for the team to show major improvement, and if they don’t, both him and DG are likely gone.

I don’t know how many times I have to say that to make you guys realize that I’m not some “other end of the spectrum” poster.

I’m a realist. I get the fact that it takes some time to develop a quarterback. I lived through Eli Manning and watched Phil Simms as a kid. Just because I want to give Jones another year to grow doesn’t make me a “everything is awesome!” Fan. It makes me a fan who likes where the team is going, likes Jones, thinks it’s going to work out, but also realizes that he likely has 1 more year to get it done.

All you guys are just saying things over and over again that aren’t accurate, and it’s really fucking annoying.
Mike in Ohio's  
crick n NC : 5/4/2021 8:16 am : link
Post had wisdom to glean, but instead was immediately refuted as "wrong".
...  
christian : 5/4/2021 8:17 am : link
What are some of the reasons this year is likely make or break for Jones?
RE: ...  
crick n NC : 5/4/2021 8:20 am : link
In comment 15252803 christian said:
Quote:
What are some of the reasons this year is likely make or break for Jones?


Third year in the league
Second year in the same system
Likely much improved surrounding talent


RE: ...  
Mike in NY : 5/4/2021 8:22 am : link
In comment 15252803 christian said:
Quote:
What are some of the reasons this year is likely make or break for Jones?


Changes to the fifth year option make it more onerous on teams. Previously it was guaranteed only in case of injury. Now, it is fully guaranteed. The amount is not cheap and a rookie QB and a vet backup combined will likely take up less cap room than the option. We have to decide on the option around the time of next year’s draft. If Jones doesn’t make substantial progress, I can’t see how you can risk that salary commitment. Bears declined it with Mitch Trubisky, so it would not be unheard of.
This is..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/4/2021 8:22 am : link
where we majorly differ:

Quote:
There's been next to nothing to enjoy to this point. And enjoying bad football doesn't make you a better fan...it's a weird thing to carry as a badge of honor.


If good football is all there is to enjoy, why would anyone watch a team that loses? Why wouldn't people flock from team to team, cheering for KC one year, TB the next and so on?

There's more to root for than "good football". There's rooting for players. For coaches. For the team as a whole.

And frankly, if I get to a point where I detest something so much that I'm posting daily about how bad the team I'm rooting for is. That I tell people everyday how bad others are at doing their jobs. That I rant daily about mistakes in the past. I will cease to be a fan and no longer follow that team.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 5/4/2021 8:25 am : link
In comment 15252806 crick n NC said:
Quote:
In comment 15252803 christian said:


Quote:


What are some of the reasons this year is likely make or break for Jones?



Third year in the league
Second year in the same system
Likely much improved surrounding talent



Are those reasons you believe his job is on the line, or reasons you believe he will play well?
santacruz  
ryanmkeane : 5/4/2021 8:25 am : link
wrong again. Everyone has a right to be skeptical, everyone has a right to not like Daniel Jones. I’m just gonna point bullshit out when I see it. Such as an argument where Daniel Jones is compared to Phil Simms.

People need to be realistic when it comes to franchise quarterbacks. I mean literally - the majority of 12-15 year quarterbacks in the NFL all struggle at first, sometimes worse than Jones has.

Also - the fact that Terps sits there and says things like “there’s been nothing to enjoy at this point” is utter bullshit too.

He’s had some awesome games in both seasons.

He broke Giants records as a rookie.

He played very well down the stretch in 2020, the team went 4-2 in his final 6 starts and he cut WAY down on the turnovers. Perhaps they have a shot at Arizona if he was healthy. I guess we won’t ever know that.

But sure, let’s act like Daniel Jones has been abysmal for the Giants. The TEAM around him got better in 2020, and wouldn’t you know it, they played better down the stretch, including him.

But yup, there has been “nothing to enjoy” with our QB.

I’m going to enjoy Jones growth in 2021. Go root for the Bears or watch Justin Herbert played instead and have a good cry. Giants are going to be good in 2021, and Jones is going to improve. That’s my opinion, that’s what I think, and there’s plenty of anecdotal evidence to support that it’s not some batshit crazy theory.
RE: Mike in Ohio's  
ryanmkeane : 5/4/2021 8:25 am : link
In comment 15252801 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Post had wisdom to glean, but instead was immediately refuted as "wrong".

Because he’s completely misinterpreting what I’m saying, that’s why.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
crick n NC : 5/4/2021 8:27 am : link
In comment 15252812 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15252806 crick n NC said:


Quote:


In comment 15252803 christian said:


Quote:


What are some of the reasons this year is likely make or break for Jones?



Third year in the league
Second year in the same system
Likely much improved surrounding talent





Are those reasons you believe his job is on the line, or reasons you believe he will play well?


Those are reasons to look for significant enough improvement to continue with him.
Probably just IMO  
Bill L : 5/4/2021 8:29 am : link
on enjoyment of watching, maybe if you are completely outcome-based, that's true. However, I felt a tangible difference in watching last year versus the previous year, even though we were not a winning team. I enjoyed the games themselves a lot, or, at least a lot more than the Shurmer/McAdoo games.
RE: Probably just IMO  
crick n NC : 5/4/2021 8:33 am : link
In comment 15252818 Bill L said:
Quote:
on enjoyment of watching, maybe if you are completely outcome-based, that's true. However, I felt a tangible difference in watching last year versus the previous year, even though we were not a winning team. I enjoyed the games themselves a lot, or, at least a lot more than the Shurmer/McAdoo games.


Shurmur especially for me was something that seemed to go on longer than it did because my mindset had concluded that a change was necessary which made it very tough to get much enjoyment out of anything that normally would result in pleasure. To be clear, I'm speaking about the second half of his second season.
RE: Mike in Ohio's  
Mike from Ohio : 5/4/2021 8:36 am : link
In comment 15252801 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Post had wisdom to glean, but instead was immediately refuted as "wrong".


In Ryan’s world there are two sets of people. People who agree with him, and idiots who are simply wrong. He can’t and won’t move off that and it is silly to try.
RE: RE: Mike in Ohio's  
Bill L : 5/4/2021 8:38 am : link
In comment 15252829 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
In comment 15252801 crick n NC said:


Quote:


Post had wisdom to glean, but instead was immediately refuted as "wrong".



In Ryan’s world there are two sets of people. People who agree with him, and idiots who are simply wrong. He can’t and won’t move off that and it is silly to try.


Applicable to only Ryan.
Mike  
ryanmkeane : 5/4/2021 8:39 am : link
again, arguing with you is completely pointless. I’m not calling anyone an idiot for having a different opinion. But this is a message board, and I’m going to call out blatant bullshit when I see it. Such as conflating - which is what you do every single time.
I have said  
ryanmkeane : 5/4/2021 8:41 am : link
maybe 2,000 times that this is the year for Jones, DG and the team to put it together.

For some reason, you guys take that the wrong way. I’m not sure why. It’s right there, in writing, every time I say it.
RE: I have said  
christian : 5/4/2021 8:42 am : link
In comment 15252840 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
maybe 2,000 times that this is the year for Jones, DG and the team to put it together.

For some reason, you guys take that the wrong way. I’m not sure why. It’s right there, in writing, every time I say it.


Why is this the year for Jones?
RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
christian : 5/4/2021 8:44 am : link
In comment 15252816 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Are those reasons you believe his job is on the line, or reasons you believe he will play well?

Those are reasons to look for significant enough improvement to continue with him.


Respectfully you’re answering a different question than what I am asking. I’m asking why this year is such a pivotal year for Jones.
Fats...  
Brown_Hornet : 5/4/2021 8:45 am : link
...great post.

I have enjoyed the previous 3 seasons. I didn't care so much for the inevitable endings, but that doesn't stop the enjoyment of the journey.
A football season starts in September, not January.

I'd prefer a few more ups in 2021, but that does not mean that there weren't any during the season(s).

I find the coach and the players that DG has brought in to be easy to root for.

I'd rather watch the Giants lose a nail biter to the (pick a team) than watch any other game that Sunday.

I will enjoy the game.

Most of us that have children that play football will have to endure bad teams. Those are the games that I wish that I could see again.

Football is so much more than what goes on the back of a football card or what happens in January/February.

That said, here's to the Giants ascending in 2021!

RE: Fats...  
Bill L : 5/4/2021 8:47 am : link
In comment 15252845 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...great post.

I have enjoyed the previous 3 seasons. I didn't care so much for the inevitable endings, but that doesn't stop the enjoyment of the journey.
A football season starts in September, not January.

I'd prefer a few more ups in 2021, but that does not mean that there weren't any during the season(s).

I find the coach and the players that DG has brought in to be easy to root for.

I'd rather watch the Giants lose a nail biter to the (pick a team) than watch any other game that Sunday.

I will enjoy the game.

Most of us that have children that play football will have to endure bad teams. Those are the games that I wish that I could see again.

Football is so much more than what goes on the back of a football card or what happens in January/February.

That said, here's to the Giants ascending in 2021!


Awesome post! Probably my favorite in a while. I'm just sorry more people don't feel the way that you do.
RE: I have said  
Mike from Ohio : 5/4/2021 8:48 am : link
In comment 15252840 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
maybe 2,000 times that this is the year for Jones, DG and the team to put it together.

For some reason, you guys take that the wrong way. I’m not sure why. It’s right there, in writing, every time I say it.


Again, you are missing the point completely.

You believe this is a make or break year for Jones. Other posters believe (rightly or wrongly because it is an OPINION) that he is not the right guy. They see things in his game that make them believe he isn’t a franchise QB and sticking with him is throwing away another year. That opinion - like it or not - is just as valid as yours. They are not “ wrong” because they see it differently than you. They don’t say that because they hate Jones and hate the Giants. They say it because it is what their eyes tell them.

I can’t spell that out any more directly than that.

So now post “wrong” and tell me I am an idiot.
Christian  
ryanmkeane : 5/4/2021 8:49 am : link
do you mean why will Jones succeed this year? Or why is this “the year” before Giants move on if he doesn’t improve?
This debate will only intensify now  
The Mike : 5/4/2021 8:52 am : link
We are within one year of his contract renewal so fans will react to every statement where Judge appears to support or defend "below average" play at the quarterback position.

Daniel Jones is a great kid and deserves much praise for his fight, intensity and character. Judge's statement echoes this, but it also echoes the fact that perhaps Jones should not have played against Arizona. Do we win that game if McCoy plays? Not sure. But it raises the question so not sure it was the best thing to say.

The Giants have drafted and signed premium players on offense and put together a top tier defense over the past two years, passing over both Justin Herbert and Justin Fields, all to demonstrate their strong commitment to him. As constructed, this team is now a playoff team if it gets consistent quality quarterback play.

So development time is over. Excuse time is over. If Jones leads us to the playoffs, he should be extended. If not, the Giants should move on. And I applaud the Giants for acquiring draft capital next year to ensure that if he is not the guy, they are prepared to do so.


RE: Fats...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/4/2021 8:53 am : link
In comment 15252845 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...great post.

I have enjoyed the previous 3 seasons. I didn't care so much for the inevitable endings, but that doesn't stop the enjoyment of the journey.
A football season starts in September, not January.

I'd prefer a few more ups in 2021, but that does not mean that there weren't any during the season(s).

I find the coach and the players that DG has brought in to be easy to root for.

I'd rather watch the Giants lose a nail biter to the (pick a team) than watch any other game that Sunday.

I will enjoy the game.

Most of us that have children that play football will have to endure bad teams. Those are the games that I wish that I could see again.

Football is so much more than what goes on the back of a football card or what happens in January/February.

That said, here's to the Giants ascending in 2021!


Love it!! My son played on a Pee-Wee team that didn't win a game. Yet what we remember most about that season was that he scored TD's on a kick return, an INT and a pass. We remember the players and their families, some of whom we still hang out with.

I'm like Bill - I enjoyed last season a lot. We had hope. I did a weekly thing with a couple of friends that kept us involved. I enjoy rooting for the players and most of them are really likeable to root for.
RE: Christian  
christian : 5/4/2021 8:55 am : link
In comment 15252851 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
do you mean why will Jones succeed this year? Or why is this “the year” before Giants move on if he doesn’t improve?


Why do you believe the Giants would/should move on from Jones after this year of he doesn’t improve?
LeonBright45  
Bear vs Shark : 5/4/2021 8:56 am : link
Stop acting like everyone needs to share your opinion. You're coming hot at santacruzom who's been a great poster for a long time and never really fought with anyone -- simply because he doesn't share your opinion.

At the end of the day, EVERYONE - I'd bet even Go Terps - would want to see DJ become a great QB. The question right now is if he's on track to do so.

At worst, that question is up in the air. Coming in and pretending like anyone who questions whether Jones will actually be a good starter for NYG has a "bullshit opinion" is asinine.
RE: I would enjoy Jones while you can  
bw in dc : 5/4/2021 8:58 am : link
In comment 15252554 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Before this weekend I was worried he'd get both 2021 and 2022 to prove he's something other than what he's shown in five years of college and pro football.

Trading for Chicago's first rounder put that notion to bed. Either he becomes a productive quarterback for the first time in...ever...or it's good night the lights on the three year mistake.


I understand this point. There is logic to it. But Mara is a very patient, stubborn man. And I can't help but think he really wants to give Jones every chance to succeed/fail. So I still think Jones could get '22 as well to show if he has the right stuff.

Further, 2022 is not shaping up to be a bumper crop for QB prospects. Outside of Sam Howell it's an uninspiring class. Not a lot of dual threats. A lot of average looking pocket passers with some mobility. So thinking Jones's replacement could be just a year away - if he is poor again - is really wishful thinking right now.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
crick n NC : 5/4/2021 8:59 am : link
In comment 15252844 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15252816 crick n NC said:


Quote:


Are those reasons you believe his job is on the line, or reasons you believe he will play well?

Those are reasons to look for significant enough improvement to continue with him.



Respectfully you’re answering a different question than what I am asking. I’m asking why this year is such a pivotal year for Jones.


It is a pivotal year because of those I listed.
RE: RE: Christian  
ryanmkeane : 5/4/2021 9:02 am : link
In comment 15252861 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15252851 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


do you mean why will Jones succeed this year? Or why is this “the year” before Giants move on if he doesn’t improve?



Why do you believe the Giants would/should move on from Jones after this year of he doesn’t improve?

Because to be honest I think 3 years is sufficient. He’s had his poor play and bumps the first few seasons, he’s had two coaches, two systems. With the investments we’ve made along OL, weapons, and second year in the system, now is the time. In today’s NFL I think 3 full years is what you need (with the correct stuff around him) to evaluate a franchise QB. Obviously if the guy is just completely and utterly pathetic and or isn’t putting in the work in, or there’s something else just not clicking, you move on. But for someone like Jones, 3 years is just about what was necessary for NYG to A) get rid of Shurmur and cut the prior players who were dragging the locker room down B) hire a new coach, “start over” and C) get Jones plenty of experience before “the year” where he should be starting to put everything together.

If Jones can’t succeed with what he’s been given now, it will be time to find a new solution.
RE: RE: I would enjoy Jones while you can  
The Mike : 5/4/2021 9:05 am : link
In comment 15252872 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15252554 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Before this weekend I was worried he'd get both 2021 and 2022 to prove he's something other than what he's shown in five years of college and pro football.

Trading for Chicago's first rounder put that notion to bed. Either he becomes a productive quarterback for the first time in...ever...or it's good night the lights on the three year mistake.



I understand this point. There is logic to it. But Mara is a very patient, stubborn man. And I can't help but think he really wants to give Jones every chance to succeed/fail. So I still think Jones could get '22 as well to show if he has the right stuff.

Further, 2022 is not shaping up to be a bumper crop for QB prospects. Outside of Sam Howell it's an uninspiring class. Not a lot of dual threats. A lot of average looking pocket passers with some mobility. So thinking Jones's replacement could be just a year away - if he is poor again - is really wishful thinking right now.


I would have agreed with you before the draft, but the draft capital will give them the opportunity to move to the top of the draft. If Jones does not produce and someone is worth taking, the Giants must do so. They simply can't pass over a Herbert or Fields next year. And though they may extend Jones as well given Mara's sense of loyalty, it would not be a sensible use of cap resources.
RE: Listened to a PFF podcast yesterday  
Dr. D : 5/4/2021 9:06 am : link
In comment 15252631 BSIMatt said:
Quote:

Never thought I’d see the day where PFF liked the Giants QB more than Giants fans did.

I think you're talking about a very small minority of very negative, loud and persistent posters.

My guess is a majority of Giants fans know that D. Jones shouldn't be judged based on '20 (for a long list of legitimate reasons) and that this is the year he will (hopefully) take a major leap forward.
I don't get the argument about franchise qbs  
Bear vs Shark : 5/4/2021 9:07 am : link
who have been in the league 12-15 years taking time to develop.

First off, Ben and Rivers actually didn't take 2-3 years to develop.

Second off, if you've been in the league 12-15 years, you were a rookie a long time ago in a completely different NFL. NFL offense have taken a lot from the college game, and the ramp up type for QBs is much shorter than it used to be (as is their leash). I think 3 years is an acceptable amount of time, but if you don't see improvement, it makes sense to cut bait --- especially when you have 2 1st round picks the following year, which is ample capital to move up and grab a QB if needed.

It's pretty obvious why this is a make or break year for the Jones. It's because there is a great opportunity to move on if he ISN'T the answer/doesn't make a jump this year. The opportunity cost of giving a fourth year to wait it out is too large.

Personally though, I don't see how jones can NOT be better. Sure, the OL didn't have any players added to it, but you'd expect some growth from Gates, Lemiuex, and Thomas at the very least, and also would hope the line would gel after playing together for a year.

Add in a healthy Saquon, Golladay, Toney, and to a lesser extent, Ross (need to respect the deep game), and you have an offense which has the pieces to be in the top 3rd of the league if Jones can put it together.

I am actually pretty hopeful that Jones will improve this year. I just hope he improves enough to show he's the long term answer. Having said all that, he unequivocally has not shown enough to lay this debate to rest up to this point. He hasn't been a top 15 QB over the last 2 years, and it doesn't seem very disputable.

Off the top of my head:
Mahomes, Jackson, Brady, Herbet, Wilson, Herbert, Murray, Cousins, Ryan, Mayfield, Stafford, Rodgers, Tannehill, Allen, Rivers, Carr, Brees, Burrow, hell even Garrapalo have played better than him over the last 2 years. Other than Garrapalo, can anyone dispute those QBs have been better than Jones?

Sure, you have some legends on that list, but you also have young guys who have shown way more (Herbert, Murray, Burrow, Allen, Jackson). How can people sit there and say it's unfair to have questions about Jones viability when he lags behind all the young QBs in that list I came up with in five seconds?

People need to stop acting like it's unfair to not be sold on Jones.
You know....  
Britt in VA : 5/4/2021 9:11 am : link
There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.

Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?

Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
And this isn't just "not being sold on Jones".  
Britt in VA : 5/4/2021 9:12 am : link
This is over the top. This is a GIANTS FAN message board, in case some of you have forgotten. It's not the Supreme Court.
RE: This debate will only intensify now  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2021 9:13 am : link
In comment 15252856 The Mike said:
Quote:
We are within one year of his contract renewal so fans will react to every statement where Judge appears to support or defend "below average" play at the quarterback position.

Daniel Jones is a great kid and deserves much praise for his fight, intensity and character. Judge's statement echoes this, but it also echoes the fact that perhaps Jones should not have played against Arizona. Do we win that game if McCoy plays? Not sure. But it raises the question so not sure it was the best thing to say.

The Giants have drafted and signed premium players on offense and put together a top tier defense over the past two years, passing over both Justin Herbert and Justin Fields, all to demonstrate their strong commitment to him. As constructed, this team is now a playoff team if it gets consistent quality quarterback play.

So development time is over. Excuse time is over. If Jones leads us to the playoffs, he should be extended. If not, the Giants should move on. And I applaud the Giants for acquiring draft capital next year to ensure that if he is not the guy, they are prepared to do so.



This is the good post.

And christian, Mike includes some of the reasons you are inquiring about imv...
RE: It's all a lot of bullshit  
Dr. D : 5/4/2021 9:13 am : link
In comment 15252769 Bill L said:
Quote:
Truth is that *nobody* on this board knows what Jones will be and most don't really know what he is now. What they have is a belief their head born of their own misconception of their evaluative abilities, wed to a narcissistic stubbornness that forces them to wrap, hyperbolize, or ignore every small piece of information so that it fits the conclusion that they had in their heard before even hearing the name "Daniel Jones".

The thing is, most of D. Jones defenders aren't trying to say that they KNOW for sure he's going to be our franchise QB beyond '21. We're just saying that he shouldn't be written off bc of '20 and deserves this season with a semi normal training camp with some actual NFL weapons, etc. Then he can be judged.
Holy Crap  
giant power : 5/4/2021 9:17 am : link
they are still posting in here. The CAT fight goes on. Ladies and Gentleman, the bell rings: round 600 of a 15 round fight. Will check back in a week.
RE: You know....  
Bear vs Shark : 5/4/2021 9:18 am : link
In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.

Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?

Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
I don't know if you were talking to me, but I posted pretty early in this thread and praised Jones toughness and said this made me feel better about his play last year (though people did raise a good point that if he was that hurt, he shouldn't have been out there).

But yeah, I agree, it isn't the Supreme Court, it's a Giants message board. That's why I think it's silly that people are acting like those who aren't bought in on Jones are "bad fans", or don't have valid opinions.

There's a debate to be had about whether people think he can make a leap, but no "side" is inherently wrong or flawed. I do think people have blind faith though (and it's the same people telling others they're bad fans, or think people are rooting for Jones to fail just to pat themselves on the back).

This isn't a perfect 1:1 example, but I absolutely hated the OBJ pick. I wanted Zach Martin. In retrospect, the team would be better with Zach Martin. But when OBJ was all pro and the best WR in Giants history for a period of time, I enjoyed it and rooted my ass off for him. I was super stoked to be totally wrong. When it all went south, I didn't pat myself on the back and say I was right all along -- I was instead disappointed the full trajectory of his career didn't manifest itself.

People forget sometimes that we are all Giants fans and all we want is to see the team win. We might have different opinions about how to get there, but nobody will be pissed if Jones shuts up the doubters and blossoms into an awesome QB.
RE: Holy Crap  
Bear vs Shark : 5/4/2021 9:19 am : link
In comment 15252906 giant power said:
Quote:
they are still posting in here. The CAT fight goes on. Ladies and Gentleman, the bell rings: round 600 of a 15 round fight. Will check back in a week.
It's almost like people want to discuss the Giants on a Giants message board. Stop being a content cop -- the discussion has by and large been football centric and devoid of personal attacks.
DJ was clearly compromised in the AZ game,  
Section331 : 5/4/2021 9:25 am : link
and probably shouldn't have played, but he looked fine after that, so I'm not sure I buy the missing the rest of the year claim.

And coach seemed to ignore that he played poorly before the injury. Last year is water under the bridge. DJ has been given a full slate of weapons, so let's see what he can do with them.
RE: I don't get the argument about franchise qbs  
ryanmkeane : 5/4/2021 9:26 am : link
In comment 15252890 Bear vs Shark said:
Quote:
who have been in the league 12-15 years taking time to develop.

First off, Ben and Rivers actually didn't take 2-3 years to develop.

Oh really? Phil Rivers played football for his first two seasons in the league? When did that happen? He sat on the bench for two years.

Ben didn't need time to develop? His third year in the league was actually worse than his first two, he threw 23 picks in his third season. His 4th year is when he started to take off. And also, the "team" was very good his first few seasons, he wasn't asked to do much at all except hand the ball off. He threw for 2600 and 2300 yards his first two seasons.
that's cool that jones tried to gut it out v the cardinals and all,  
japanhead : 5/4/2021 9:29 am : link
but the fact is he assured NYG an L in doing so. toughness aside, i'd rather mccoy had started that game. jones has missed multiple games with leg injuries each year he's played. here's hoping he can play a ful1 16-game season in '21 but so far he's been injury prone.
RE: RE: You know....  
Britt in VA : 5/4/2021 9:30 am : link
In comment 15252908 Bear vs Shark said:
Quote:
In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.

Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?

Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?

I don't know if you were talking to me, but I posted pretty early in this thread and praised Jones toughness and said this made me feel better about his play last year (though people did raise a good point that if he was that hurt, he shouldn't have been out there).

But yeah, I agree, it isn't the Supreme Court, it's a Giants message board. That's why I think it's silly that people are acting like those who aren't bought in on Jones are "bad fans", or don't have valid opinions.

There's a debate to be had about whether people think he can make a leap, but no "side" is inherently wrong or flawed. I do think people have blind faith though (and it's the same people telling others they're bad fans, or think people are rooting for Jones to fail just to pat themselves on the back).

This isn't a perfect 1:1 example, but I absolutely hated the OBJ pick. I wanted Zach Martin. In retrospect, the team would be better with Zach Martin. But when OBJ was all pro and the best WR in Giants history for a period of time, I enjoyed it and rooted my ass off for him. I was super stoked to be totally wrong. When it all went south, I didn't pat myself on the back and say I was right all along -- I was instead disappointed the full trajectory of his career didn't manifest itself.

People forget sometimes that we are all Giants fans and all we want is to see the team win. We might have different opinions about how to get there, but nobody will be pissed if Jones shuts up the doubters and blossoms into an awesome QB.


It wasn't to anybody in particular, just in general. There are places to criticize Jones, plenty of threads. I just don't think this is a good one to rehash it, and don't understand why every thread on Jones has to turn in to this.

Maybe we need a dedicated thread to bitch about Jones.
RE: RE: I don't get the argument about franchise qbs  
Angel Eyes : 5/4/2021 9:34 am : link
In comment 15252921 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 15252890 Bear vs Shark said:


Quote:


who have been in the league 12-15 years taking time to develop.

First off, Ben and Rivers actually didn't take 2-3 years to develop.



Oh really? Phil Rivers played football for his first two seasons in the league? When did that happen? He sat on the bench for two years.

Ben didn't need time to develop? His third year in the league was actually worse than his first two, he threw 23 picks in his third season. His 4th year is when he started to take off. And also, the "team" was very good his first few seasons, he wasn't asked to do much at all except hand the ball off. He threw for 2600 and 2300 yards his first two seasons.

Plus, let's look at Eli; in 05-07 he threw 55 interceptions and for a good portion of the 07 Super Bowl season people still wanted to fire him.
I'd be interested in seeing posts about Eli  
Dr. D : 5/4/2021 9:38 am : link
in 2006, even as late as week 15 of 2007 (near the end of his 4th season). I'm sure the master haters were supportive of Eli (not).

And I know BBI didn't exist at the time, but I'm sure Phil Simms was getting a lot of love in 1984 (his 6th season).

I know it's a different era now, but is it too much to ask to acknowledge D. Jones had a shitload of things working against him in his 2nd year and give him a 3rd season to prove himself (with a more experienced OL and some actual legit weapons)?

Fortunately the HC, GM, et al. don't agree with the haters. And if D. Jones does prove himself this year, we'll be SO much further towards the end goal than we would be if we hit reset again.

Angel Eyes  
Dr. D : 5/4/2021 9:40 am : link
I was writing my post while you were. Was thinking exact same thing.
RE: I'd be interested in seeing posts about Eli  
Angel Eyes : 5/4/2021 9:40 am : link
In comment 15252938 Dr. D said:
Quote:
in 2006, even as late as week 15 of 2007 (near the end of his 4th season). I'm sure the master haters were supportive of Eli (not).

And I know BBI didn't exist at the time, but I'm sure Phil Simms was getting a lot of love in 1984 (his 6th season).

I know it's a different era now, but is it too much to ask to acknowledge D. Jones had a shitload of things working against him in his 2nd year and give him a 3rd season to prove himself (with a more experienced OL and some actual legit weapons)?

Fortunately the HC, GM, et al. don't agree with the haters. And if D. Jones does prove himself this year, we'll be SO much further towards the end goal than we would be if we hit reset again.

Heck, in 1986 Simms was still getting booed judging by footage from the America's Game episode on the 1986 Giants.
RE: RE: You know....  
The Mike : 5/4/2021 9:43 am : link
In comment 15252908 Bear vs Shark said:
Quote:
In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.

Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?

Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?

I don't know if you were talking to me, but I posted pretty early in this thread and praised Jones toughness and said this made me feel better about his play last year (though people did raise a good point that if he was that hurt, he shouldn't have been out there).

But yeah, I agree, it isn't the Supreme Court, it's a Giants message board. That's why I think it's silly that people are acting like those who aren't bought in on Jones are "bad fans", or don't have valid opinions.

There's a debate to be had about whether people think he can make a leap, but no "side" is inherently wrong or flawed. I do think people have blind faith though (and it's the same people telling others they're bad fans, or think people are rooting for Jones to fail just to pat themselves on the back).

This isn't a perfect 1:1 example, but I absolutely hated the OBJ pick. I wanted Zach Martin. In retrospect, the team would be better with Zach Martin. But when OBJ was all pro and the best WR in Giants history for a period of time, I enjoyed it and rooted my ass off for him. I was super stoked to be totally wrong. When it all went south, I didn't pat myself on the back and say I was right all along -- I was instead disappointed the full trajectory of his career didn't manifest itself.

People forget sometimes that we are all Giants fans and all we want is to see the team win. We might have different opinions about how to get there, but nobody will be pissed if Jones shuts up the doubters and blossoms into an awesome QB.


Great post. This isn't a referendum on Jones - it is a referendum on Giants "decision making". Defending poor performance or making excuses will always raise visceral fan reaction because of the team's legacy of poor decision making. Judge appears to be changing this for the better ala George Young. Unfortunately, Judge's comments give fuel to both sides of the debate and create the fear that poor managerial decision making could rear its ugly ahead at any time.

We are all great Giants fans and I would expect lots of passionate and differing opinions on this matter in the year ahead.
RE: RE: RE: You know....  
Britt in VA : 5/4/2021 9:45 am : link
In comment 15252948 The Mike said:
Quote:
In comment 15252908 Bear vs Shark said:


Quote:


In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.

Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?

Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?

I don't know if you were talking to me, but I posted pretty early in this thread and praised Jones toughness and said this made me feel better about his play last year (though people did raise a good point that if he was that hurt, he shouldn't have been out there).

But yeah, I agree, it isn't the Supreme Court, it's a Giants message board. That's why I think it's silly that people are acting like those who aren't bought in on Jones are "bad fans", or don't have valid opinions.

There's a debate to be had about whether people think he can make a leap, but no "side" is inherently wrong or flawed. I do think people have blind faith though (and it's the same people telling others they're bad fans, or think people are rooting for Jones to fail just to pat themselves on the back).

This isn't a perfect 1:1 example, but I absolutely hated the OBJ pick. I wanted Zach Martin. In retrospect, the team would be better with Zach Martin. But when OBJ was all pro and the best WR in Giants history for a period of time, I enjoyed it and rooted my ass off for him. I was super stoked to be totally wrong. When it all went south, I didn't pat myself on the back and say I was right all along -- I was instead disappointed the full trajectory of his career didn't manifest itself.

People forget sometimes that we are all Giants fans and all we want is to see the team win. We might have different opinions about how to get there, but nobody will be pissed if Jones shuts up the doubters and blossoms into an awesome QB.



Great post. This isn't a referendum on Jones - it is a referendum on Giants "decision making". Defending poor performance or making excuses will always raise visceral fan reaction because of the team's legacy of poor decision making. Judge appears to be changing this for the better ala George Young. Unfortunately, Judge's comments give fuel to both sides of the debate and create the fear that poor managerial decision making could rear its ugly ahead at any time.

We are all great Giants fans and I would expect lots of passionate and differing opinions on this matter in the year ahead.


Well this thread wasn't intended to be about Giants Decision Making, was it? It was intended to talk about Jones playing through serious injury, by way of a strong compliment from the coach.
RE: I'd be interested in seeing posts about Eli  
Bear vs Shark : 5/4/2021 9:45 am : link
In comment 15252938 Dr. D said:
Quote:
in 2006, even as late as week 15 of 2007 (near the end of his 4th season). I'm sure the master haters were supportive of Eli (not).

And I know BBI didn't exist at the time, but I'm sure Phil Simms was getting a lot of love in 1984 (his 6th season).

I know it's a different era now, but is it too much to ask to acknowledge D. Jones had a shitload of things working against him in his 2nd year and give him a 3rd season to prove himself (with a more experienced OL and some actual legit weapons)?

Fortunately the HC, GM, et al. don't agree with the haters. And if D. Jones does prove himself this year, we'll be SO much further towards the end goal than we would be if we hit reset again.
They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".
Britt  
Mike from Ohio : 5/4/2021 9:45 am : link
What we need is for people to express their opinions without personally attacking other posters. This thread went off the rails when someone fired a shot at Terps when he wasn’t on the thread.

The problem is that several posters have taken it upon themselves to attack or defend Jones regardless of the conversation. It’s juvenile but it happens constantly.

Maybe we can have a thread like this praising Jones and not have someone call out Terps or BW? Maybe we could have a thread critical of Jones without someone calling out his defenders?

This is not a one way thing no matter how many - on both sides - want to believe that.
RE: Britt  
Britt in VA : 5/4/2021 9:49 am : link
In comment 15252952 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
What we need is for people to express their opinions without personally attacking other posters. This thread went off the rails when someone fired a shot at Terps when he wasn’t on the thread.

The problem is that several posters have taken it upon themselves to attack or defend Jones regardless of the conversation. It’s juvenile but it happens constantly.

Maybe we can have a thread like this praising Jones and not have someone call out Terps or BW? Maybe we could have a thread critical of Jones without someone calling out his defenders?

This is not a one way thing no matter how many - on both sides - want to believe that.


I can't speak for anybody that called anybody out, but let's face it, it would have happened inevitably whether a call out occurred or not.

I'm open to having a productive conversation on Jones, and it's probably already happened in some way shape or form, but these days it feels impossible.
Kevin Gilbride  
Dr. D : 5/4/2021 9:50 am : link
recently said that this upcoming season should be considered Jones' 2nd season and he was just referring to the challenge of having a new coach and offense.

Add to that, the fact he had to deal with that challenge without OTAs, a largely virtual camp, no preseason, a rookie LT, UDFA C who never played C, the worst WR corps in the league, Evan "Look, No Hands" Engram as his #1 target, etc., etc.

I'm rooting for him to kick major ass this year. Getting us to the 2nd rd of the playoffs would be a nice stepping stone (and maybe shut the haters TF up).
RE: RE: RE: RE: You know....  
The Mike : 5/4/2021 9:56 am : link
In comment 15252950 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15252948 The Mike said:


Quote:


In comment 15252908 Bear vs Shark said:


Quote:


In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.

Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?

Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?

I don't know if you were talking to me, but I posted pretty early in this thread and praised Jones toughness and said this made me feel better about his play last year (though people did raise a good point that if he was that hurt, he shouldn't have been out there).

But yeah, I agree, it isn't the Supreme Court, it's a Giants message board. That's why I think it's silly that people are acting like those who aren't bought in on Jones are "bad fans", or don't have valid opinions.

There's a debate to be had about whether people think he can make a leap, but no "side" is inherently wrong or flawed. I do think people have blind faith though (and it's the same people telling others they're bad fans, or think people are rooting for Jones to fail just to pat themselves on the back).

This isn't a perfect 1:1 example, but I absolutely hated the OBJ pick. I wanted Zach Martin. In retrospect, the team would be better with Zach Martin. But when OBJ was all pro and the best WR in Giants history for a period of time, I enjoyed it and rooted my ass off for him. I was super stoked to be totally wrong. When it all went south, I didn't pat myself on the back and say I was right all along -- I was instead disappointed the full trajectory of his career didn't manifest itself.

People forget sometimes that we are all Giants fans and all we want is to see the team win. We might have different opinions about how to get there, but nobody will be pissed if Jones shuts up the doubters and blossoms into an awesome QB.



Great post. This isn't a referendum on Jones - it is a referendum on Giants "decision making". Defending poor performance or making excuses will always raise visceral fan reaction because of the team's legacy of poor decision making. Judge appears to be changing this for the better ala George Young. Unfortunately, Judge's comments give fuel to both sides of the debate and create the fear that poor managerial decision making could rear its ugly ahead at any time.

We are all great Giants fans and I would expect lots of passionate and differing opinions on this matter in the year ahead.



Well this thread wasn't intended to be about Giants Decision Making, was it? It was intended to talk about Jones playing through serious injury, by way of a strong compliment from the coach.


I know what the intention was, but as soon as Judge alludes to the fact that perhaps Jones should not have played over McCoy, who had just beaten the Seahawks in perhaps the best win in five years, it opens the door for visceral reaction to the decision and, by extension, Jones.

RE: RE: I'd be interested in seeing posts about Eli  
Dr. D : 5/4/2021 9:56 am : link
In comment 15252951 Bear vs Shark said:
Quote:

They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".

That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?

And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.
RE: RE: Britt  
Angel Eyes : 5/4/2021 9:58 am : link
In comment 15252957 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15252952 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


What we need is for people to express their opinions without personally attacking other posters. This thread went off the rails when someone fired a shot at Terps when he wasn’t on the thread.

The problem is that several posters have taken it upon themselves to attack or defend Jones regardless of the conversation. It’s juvenile but it happens constantly.

Maybe we can have a thread like this praising Jones and not have someone call out Terps or BW? Maybe we could have a thread critical of Jones without someone calling out his defenders?

This is not a one way thing no matter how many - on both sides - want to believe that.



I can't speak for anybody that called anybody out, but let's face it, it would have happened inevitably whether a call out occurred or not.

I'm open to having a productive conversation on Jones, and it's probably already happened in some way shape or form, but these days it feels impossible.

I think the Giants are trying to put Jones in a position that he can do his best, but the problem is how? What's more important? There's a lot of chicken and the egg between having better wide receivers and having a better offensive line so Jones has time to throw to said receivers. Perhaps with signing Kyle Rudolph who's a two-way tight end Engram can be lined up wide as a deep threat and not have to block, but he's gotta get better hands.
RE: RE: RE: I'd be interested in seeing posts about Eli  
Bill L : 5/4/2021 9:58 am : link
In comment 15252963 Dr. D said:
Quote:
In comment 15252951 Bear vs Shark said:


Quote:



They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".


That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?

And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.


People didn't just pop off and say "Eli will be fine". Most often they were direct responses to other posters.

And, in a past is prologue type of thing, most of the criticism was his perceived penchant for an untimely fumble or interception.
Bear...  
Brown_Hornet : 5/4/2021 10:02 am : link
..."That's why I think it's silly that people are acting like those who aren't bought in on Jones are "bad fans", or don't have valid opinions."

I'm not sure that anyone is saying this.

RE: RE: RE: Britt  
Dr. D : 5/4/2021 10:04 am : link
In comment 15252966 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
Perhaps with signing Kyle Rudolph who's a two-way tight end Engram can be lined up wide as a deep threat and not have to block, but he's gotta get better hands.

The fact that Engram was the #1 target last year was a really bad shituation.

With the added weapons, Engram might be #4 or 5 target this year. That by itself will be an improvement. If he's targeted 25-30 times instead of 110, that's a win. Less damage.
RE: RE: RE: Britt  
The Mike : 5/4/2021 10:09 am : link
In comment 15252966 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
In comment 15252957 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 15252952 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


What we need is for people to express their opinions without personally attacking other posters. This thread went off the rails when someone fired a shot at Terps when he wasn’t on the thread.

The problem is that several posters have taken it upon themselves to attack or defend Jones regardless of the conversation. It’s juvenile but it happens constantly.

Maybe we can have a thread like this praising Jones and not have someone call out Terps or BW? Maybe we could have a thread critical of Jones without someone calling out his defenders?

This is not a one way thing no matter how many - on both sides - want to believe that.



I can't speak for anybody that called anybody out, but let's face it, it would have happened inevitably whether a call out occurred or not.

I'm open to having a productive conversation on Jones, and it's probably already happened in some way shape or form, but these days it feels impossible.


I think the Giants are trying to put Jones in a position that he can do his best, but the problem is how? What's more important? There's a lot of chicken and the egg between having better wide receivers and having a better offensive line so Jones has time to throw to said receivers. Perhaps with signing Kyle Rudolph who's a two-way tight end Engram can be lined up wide as a deep threat and not have to block, but he's gotta get better hands.


One of the main reasons I was so hopeful they would have drafted an offensive lineman is to take away the only excuse left - that Jones has an inferior OL and can't be properly evaluated until it is "NFL competent". Just the thought of that coming argument is hair raising.
RE: LeonBright45  
LeonBright45 : 5/4/2021 10:23 am : link
In comment 15252866 Bear vs Shark said:
Quote:
Stop acting like everyone needs to share your opinion. You're coming hot at santacruzom who's been a great poster for a long time and never really fought with anyone -- simply because he doesn't share your opinion.

At the end of the day, EVERYONE - I'd bet even Go Terps - would want to see DJ become a great QB. The question right now is if he's on track to do so.

At worst, that question is up in the air. Coming in and pretending like anyone who questions whether Jones will actually be a good starter for NYG has a "bullshit opinion" is asinine.


Who TF put you in charge?? Fuck off "MOM"
Should be able to discuss NYG decision making  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2021 10:30 am : link
and Daniel Jones on this thread...no reason not to.

And not for nothing, but for a whole lot of people that show disdain for Go Terps and his opinions on DJ you all sure go about it in a ridiculous fashion. If he is on the thread you call him out for hijacking it, and if he isn't you call him out for what he would say if he was on it.

Why not just engage as it's obvious you want to, argue all you want, but keep it on the reservation.

If you think its pointless...then what's your point?

RE: RE: RE: I'd be interested in seeing posts about Eli  
Scooter185 : 5/4/2021 10:33 am : link
In comment 15252963 Dr. D said:
Quote:
In comment 15252951 Bear vs Shark said:


Quote:



They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".


That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?

And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.


But the NFL as a whole isn't going to be giving QBs that time to develop anymore, which is why these comparisons to Eli and Simms are silly. It's not a NYG thing, it's an NFL thing. Between rookie contracts/options and the confluence of the college and pro games, teams need their first round QB picks to be "the guy" by year three.

Unless changes are made to the CBA, what we saw with the Jets and Darnold is going to become the norm for teams that don't have "the guy"
RE: RE: RE: I'd be interested in seeing posts about Eli  
Bear vs Shark : 5/4/2021 10:39 am : link
In comment 15252963 Dr. D said:
Quote:
In comment 15252951 Bear vs Shark said:


Quote:



They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".


That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?

And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.
I agree, but QBs back then took longer to get acclimated to the NFL.

That being said, this year is definitely the prove-it year for Jones. He has a really solid supporting cast now. Even if it isn't Tiki/Shockey/Toomer/Plax and that line, it's no longer pure dogshit.

Barkley/Golladay/Toney/Shepard/Slayton/Engram/Rudolph is a decent amount of weapons. He's gotta improve this year.

On the other hand, Eli was much more highly regarded as a prospect and a better arm (plus the pedigree). Right or wrong, people are typically more patient with highly regarded prospects.
RE: RE: I would enjoy Jones while you can  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2021 10:41 am : link
In comment 15252872 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15252554 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Before this weekend I was worried he'd get both 2021 and 2022 to prove he's something other than what he's shown in five years of college and pro football.

Trading for Chicago's first rounder put that notion to bed. Either he becomes a productive quarterback for the first time in...ever...or it's good night the lights on the three year mistake.



I understand this point. There is logic to it. But Mara is a very patient, stubborn man. And I can't help but think he really wants to give Jones every chance to succeed/fail. So I still think Jones could get '22 as well to show if he has the right stuff.

Further, 2022 is not shaping up to be a bumper crop for QB prospects. Outside of Sam Howell it's an uninspiring class. Not a lot of dual threats. A lot of average looking pocket passers with some mobility. So thinking Jones's replacement could be just a year away - if he is poor again - is really wishful thinking right now.


Well, part of the Jones decision at the end of 2021 is going to have to include what does that QB crop look like for the 2022 Draft. Way too early for anybody to weigh in there.

There are other options than extending DJ or just drafting a QB. They can wait another year to make a heavier investment in a college prospect. But obviously that comes with the cost of waiting as other player contracts get a year older and the extra #1 is right now only for 2022.

They can also trade for an NFL QB and have lot of picks in their pocket to do it.
RE: RE: LeonBright45  
Bear vs Shark : 5/4/2021 10:41 am : link
In comment 15252990 LeonBright45 said:
Quote:
In comment 15252866 Bear vs Shark said:


Quote:


Stop acting like everyone needs to share your opinion. You're coming hot at santacruzom who's been a great poster for a long time and never really fought with anyone -- simply because he doesn't share your opinion.

At the end of the day, EVERYONE - I'd bet even Go Terps - would want to see DJ become a great QB. The question right now is if he's on track to do so.

At worst, that question is up in the air. Coming in and pretending like anyone who questions whether Jones will actually be a good starter for NYG has a "bullshit opinion" is asinine.



Who TF put you in charge?? Fuck off "MOM"
Nobody put me in charge -- I'm just telling you that you sound like a homer, a crybaby, and a petulant little child. Feel free to continue making yourself look like a fool because people have the audacity to question if Daniel fucking Jones is going to end up being a franchise QB or not (as if that isn't a valid question to ask).

When you're the one sitting there acting like there's no argument at all *against* him being a franchise QB, you're the one living in fantasy land.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You know....  
Bear vs Shark : 5/4/2021 10:43 am : link
In comment 15252950 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15252948 The Mike said:


Quote:


In comment 15252908 Bear vs Shark said:


Quote:


In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.

Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?

Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?

I don't know if you were talking to me, but I posted pretty early in this thread and praised Jones toughness and said this made me feel better about his play last year (though people did raise a good point that if he was that hurt, he shouldn't have been out there).

But yeah, I agree, it isn't the Supreme Court, it's a Giants message board. That's why I think it's silly that people are acting like those who aren't bought in on Jones are "bad fans", or don't have valid opinions.

There's a debate to be had about whether people think he can make a leap, but no "side" is inherently wrong or flawed. I do think people have blind faith though (and it's the same people telling others they're bad fans, or think people are rooting for Jones to fail just to pat themselves on the back).

This isn't a perfect 1:1 example, but I absolutely hated the OBJ pick. I wanted Zach Martin. In retrospect, the team would be better with Zach Martin. But when OBJ was all pro and the best WR in Giants history for a period of time, I enjoyed it and rooted my ass off for him. I was super stoked to be totally wrong. When it all went south, I didn't pat myself on the back and say I was right all along -- I was instead disappointed the full trajectory of his career didn't manifest itself.

People forget sometimes that we are all Giants fans and all we want is to see the team win. We might have different opinions about how to get there, but nobody will be pissed if Jones shuts up the doubters and blossoms into an awesome QB.



Great post. This isn't a referendum on Jones - it is a referendum on Giants "decision making". Defending poor performance or making excuses will always raise visceral fan reaction because of the team's legacy of poor decision making. Judge appears to be changing this for the better ala George Young. Unfortunately, Judge's comments give fuel to both sides of the debate and create the fear that poor managerial decision making could rear its ugly ahead at any time.

We are all great Giants fans and I would expect lots of passionate and differing opinions on this matter in the year ahead.



Well this thread wasn't intended to be about Giants Decision Making, was it? It was intended to talk about Jones playing through serious injury, by way of a strong compliment from the coach.
Whatever, I mean the topic of conversation changed.

I can tell you this though: there isn't a single person in this thread, even, I'd imagine, Jones's biggest detractors like GT, who think he isn't tough or isn't a high character guy.
RE: RE: RE: LeonBright45  
LeonBright45 : 5/4/2021 10:49 am : link
In comment 15253022 Bear vs Shark said:
Quote:
In comment 15252990 LeonBright45 said:


Quote:


In comment 15252866 Bear vs Shark said:


Quote:


Stop acting like everyone needs to share your opinion. You're coming hot at santacruzom who's been a great poster for a long time and never really fought with anyone -- simply because he doesn't share your opinion.

At the end of the day, EVERYONE - I'd bet even Go Terps - would want to see DJ become a great QB. The question right now is if he's on track to do so.

At worst, that question is up in the air. Coming in and pretending like anyone who questions whether Jones will actually be a good starter for NYG has a "bullshit opinion" is asinine.



Who TF put you in charge?? Fuck off "MOM"

Nobody put me in charge -- I'm just telling you that you sound like a homer, a crybaby, and a petulant little child. Feel free to continue making yourself look like a fool because people have the audacity to question if Daniel fucking Jones is going to end up being a franchise QB or not (as if that isn't a valid question to ask).

When you're the one sitting there acting like there's no argument at all *against* him being a franchise QB, you're the one living in fantasy land.


The argument doesn't hold water. The offensive line has been horrible and the receivers haven't been much better. The kid deserves a fair test and until he fails he deserves the benefit of the doubt.
RE: You know....  
bw in dc : 5/4/2021 10:58 am : link
In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:
Quote:

Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?



I came into this discussion to question why Jones was even playing if, per Judge, he probably shouldn't have been in the game in the first place. We were still competing for a division title, so we needed to put the best players in the game who gave us the best chance to win (even if that meant McCoy). Jones right now is a very limited pocket passer. But he's a threat on the move. By him not being able to do that, the people who cleared Jones hurt the team - IMV.

So that created an off ramp to question the judgment of the medical staff and the coaching staff.

But toughness doesn't really mean anything to me if you can't create more wins. So I can see why others wouldn't find this compliment by Judge to be persuasive in closing the gap why Jones is the solution at QB...
Nobody on this board  
Mike from Ohio : 5/4/2021 11:00 am : link
At least that I have seen, thinks Jones isn’t tough, isn’t a hard worker and isn’t a good teammate. I don’t think anyone is rooting for him to fail (although that does get put out there quite a bit).

The problem is not with people’s varying opinions on Jones, it is with the inability to tolerate a difference of opinion. Why call out Ryan if Jones plays badly? Why call out Terps when the coach praises him? What prize are you looking for?

I wouldn’t care if people want to be provocative jerks, except that threads devolve into this silliness too often and this board becomes unreadable.
RE: RE: RE: I would enjoy Jones while you can  
bw in dc : 5/4/2021 11:01 am : link
In comment 15253021 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:


Well, part of the Jones decision at the end of 2021 is going to have to include what does that QB crop look like for the 2022 Draft. Way too early for anybody to weigh in there.

There are other options than extending DJ or just drafting a QB. They can wait another year to make a heavier investment in a college prospect. But obviously that comes with the cost of waiting as other player contracts get a year older and the extra #1 is right now only for 2022.

They can also trade for an NFL QB and have lot of picks in their pocket to do it.


That's true about using the picks to possibly acquire another QB via trade - good point.

But not all draft classes are created equal. So just because the last few looked good we shouldn't assume the next class will look similar. Because right now it isn't shaping up to that attractive outside of Howell and maybe - maybe - Rattler.
RE: You know....  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/4/2021 11:09 am : link
In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.

Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?

Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?

And that's what it's always about for you. Enjoyment. Not winning, just enjoyment.

Same reason why you celebrated the pregame shows two years ago.

I just don't understand why it doesn't matter to you for the Giants to actually be good at football.
RE: RE: RE: I'd be interested in seeing posts about Eli  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/4/2021 11:14 am : link
In comment 15252963 Dr. D said:
Quote:
In comment 15252951 Bear vs Shark said:


Quote:



They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".


That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?

And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.

The NFL was different then. That was 17 years ago that Eli entered the league.

We're now seeing QBs win the MVP in their second year, repeatedly. There isn't the same learning curve that there used to be. Could DJ break out this year and put it all together? Absolutely.

I just don't understand why anyone thinks that's the chalk. He's even money at best.
RE: You know....  
Thegratefulhead : 5/4/2021 11:15 am : link
In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.

Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?

Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
They deserve their say as much you do.
RE: RE: You know....  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/4/2021 11:21 am : link
In comment 15253085 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.

Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?

Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?

They deserve their say as much you do.

Britt's going to tell you that you're "moving the goalposts" if you acknowledge any view other than his.
Britt- you know as well as I do  
Dave on the UWS : 5/4/2021 11:21 am : link
that minds are made up here by some posters, that Jones is garbage, they should draft a QB 1st rd every year, or trade the next 5 drafts for Aaron Rogers.
And spend all the draft picks every year on OL until the unit is "fixed".
(i.e. you CANT have a productive conversation on the QB when those fans have a "win NOW, no excuses, even if he has to play all 11 positions by himself simultaneously)
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: There are a few posters  
santacruzom : 5/4/2021 11:23 am : link
In comment 15252737 LeonBright45 said:
Quote:
In comment 15252571 santacruzom said:


Quote:


In comment 15252542 LeonBright45 said:


Quote:


In comment 15252538 santacruzom said:


Quote:


In comment 15252454 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


who are not willing to develop a quarterback.












I think it's more a matter of a few posters who don't believe that Jones automatically qualifies as a "developmental quarterback."




^^Most idiotic post of the day^^



Don't be am ass. It's way too obtuse to label Jones' critics as people who just think a QB should immediately be stellar and never have to develop their skills.

I'd say they just don't think he'll put it together and be elite. It's a common tale that we've seen with dozens of QBs. Why should freaking Daniel Jones of all people be exempt from this concern?



I bet you believe every QB will never 'put it together and be elite" until the time actually comes and then you stand up on your chair and scream that you knew he could do it all along.


I'll take that bet. I win! What do you owe me?
RE: RE: RE: RE: I would enjoy Jones while you can  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2021 11:24 am : link
In comment 15253054 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15253021 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:




Well, part of the Jones decision at the end of 2021 is going to have to include what does that QB crop look like for the 2022 Draft. Way too early for anybody to weigh in there.

There are other options than extending DJ or just drafting a QB. They can wait another year to make a heavier investment in a college prospect. But obviously that comes with the cost of waiting as other player contracts get a year older and the extra #1 is right now only for 2022.

They can also trade for an NFL QB and have lot of picks in their pocket to do it.



That's true about using the picks to possibly acquire another QB via trade - good point.

But not all draft classes are created equal. So just because the last few looked good we shouldn't assume the next class will look similar. Because right now it isn't shaping up to that attractive outside of Howell and maybe - maybe - Rattler.


Yes, very true. Just suggesting top guys come forward sometimes in just one year (like a Joe Burrow) so the QB radar isn't yet on full force.

I want DJ to succeed as stated numerous times, but NYG fans might also have to endure a few more seasons before their franchise guy is actually on the horizon...
RE: Britt- you know as well as I do  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/4/2021 11:25 am : link
In comment 15253091 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
that minds are made up here by some posters, that Jones is garbage, they should draft a QB 1st rd every year, or trade the next 5 drafts for Aaron Rogers.
And spend all the draft picks every year on OL until the unit is "fixed".
(i.e. you CANT have a productive conversation on the QB when those fans have a "win NOW, no excuses, even if he has to play all 11 positions by himself simultaneously)

I'm not sure anyone is actually asking for that.

I think it's perfectly fair to ask that if you're going to defend DJ, you should acknowledge that his production last season was at the junior varsity level and he needs to improve if we're going to win.

That's what it's about: we are all rooting for the Giants to win. We don't all have the same path in mind to achieve that, but we all are rooting for the same goal.

I'm just not sure why certain fans need to celebrate their state of denial along the way.
RE: RE: You know....  
Thegratefulhead : 5/4/2021 11:27 am : link
In comment 15253049 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:


Quote:



Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?





I came into this discussion to question why Jones was even playing if, per Judge, he probably shouldn't have been in the game in the first place. We were still competing for a division title, so we needed to put the best players in the game who gave us the best chance to win (even if that meant McCoy). Jones right now is a very limited pocket passer. But he's a threat on the move. By him not being able to do that, the people who cleared Jones hurt the team - IMV.

So that created an off ramp to question the judgment of the medical staff and the coaching staff.

But toughness doesn't really mean anything to me if you can't create more wins. So I can see why others wouldn't find this compliment by Judge to be persuasive in closing the gap why Jones is the solution at QB...
C'mon man. FFS, you don't get the emotional side of managing humans at all. When the QB is willing to play hurt it matters. Every single championship season I watched this team play has been lead by warriors. Men that choose to sacrifice themselves for their brothers. When teams talk about culture it is this that they are trying to build. It is why OBJ had to go. When the QB is one the guys that is an example for toughness, the whole thing comes together. Think, Phil, Eli, Hoss. Those were tough bastards. Get someone on the D to match and we got something. You think LW has not been hurt in the trenches? He plays, it is a big reason why he was traded for and overpaid. You are taking shots at people that are going to be the reason you celebrate another championship. If you believe in Judge and Judge believes in DJ, what does that mean to you? If you tell me that Mara would force Judge to keep a bad young QB, I lose all respect for your opinions.
RE: Did BW really compare a bruise to two actual serious injuries  
bw in dc : 5/4/2021 11:27 am : link
In comment 15252782 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
Jesus fucking Christ. You’d think he was bleeding internally the way he talks about that play. He got a bruise and got shot up so he could deal with it later. He was fine. Somehow these two things are comparable.


I wrote:

Quote:
But he (Fields) dug deep, managed the agony, and threw three more TD passes against Clemson (he finished with six) to lead OSU to a dominant W. That's being tough and still being productive...


The point being Field was able to keep playing, despite obviously being hurt, and still be productive. Let me write that word again - productive. And that's been my point all along - if you are hurt, but you can play and still be productive, than that still helps the team.

Jones was hurt but couldn't be productive.

And I know you are smart enough to get the point.
RE: RE: You know....  
Brown_Hornet : 5/4/2021 11:28 am : link
In comment 15253076 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.

Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?

Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?


And that's what it's always about for you. Enjoyment. Not winning, just enjoyment.

Same reason why you celebrated the pregame shows two years ago.

I just don't understand why it doesn't matter to you for the Giants to actually be good at football.
Dunk, that's unwarranted and unfair.
I enjoy football. I also enjoy winning.

I'd be Britt is the same.

This is more about enjoying BBI than it is about enjoying Giants football.

bet...  
Brown_Hornet : 5/4/2021 11:29 am : link
...
RE: Britt- you know as well as I do  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2021 11:30 am : link
In comment 15253091 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
that minds are made up here by some posters, that Jones is garbage, they should draft a QB 1st rd every year, or trade the next 5 drafts for Aaron Rogers.
And spend all the draft picks every year on OL until the unit is "fixed".
(i.e. you CANT have a productive conversation on the QB when those fans have a "win NOW, no excuses, even if he has to play all 11 positions by himself simultaneously)


What is preventing you and Britt from having that conversation on here or any other thread? Go right ahead. Type him a post and converse about DJ...
RE: RE: RE: You know....  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/4/2021 11:31 am : link
In comment 15253104 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
In comment 15253076 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.

Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?

Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?


And that's what it's always about for you. Enjoyment. Not winning, just enjoyment.

Same reason why you celebrated the pregame shows two years ago.

I just don't understand why it doesn't matter to you for the Giants to actually be good at football.

Dunk, that's unwarranted and unfair.
I enjoy football. I also enjoy winning.

I'd be Britt is the same.

This is more about enjoying BBI than it is about enjoying Giants football.

No, it's more than BBI. Otherwise he wouldn't have been celebrating how much enjoyed the pregame shows after OBJ was traded.

He appears to have a very strict framework for the sort of Giants team that he wants to root for, and he'll buy in for that product regardless of whether it delivers wins.

That's not to say that he doesn't enjoy the wins as much as any Giants fan. But he sure does excuse the losses a lot more if they satisfy his sitcom expectation for the team.
RE: Mike  
santacruzom : 5/4/2021 11:31 am : link
In comment 15252837 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
again, arguing with you is completely pointless. I’m not calling anyone an idiot for having a different opinion. But this is a message board, and I’m going to call out blatant bullshit when I see it. Such as conflating - which is what you do every single time.


Okay, kudos to you for not literally calling people idiots when their opinion differs from yours. You're just calling their opinions blatant bullshit, which is much better.
Just start a thread...  
Johnny5 : 5/4/2021 11:31 am : link
... with "Jones" in the title.

And watch it dissolve into this same shitty back forth over and over again. Like Groundhog day... lol

And yes I am convinced that some people just don't know how to embrace any optimism at all about this team. No matter what our record becomes or how well we are doing.
RE: Just start a thread...  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/4/2021 11:34 am : link
In comment 15253113 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
... with "Jones" in the title.

And watch it dissolve into this same shitty back forth over and over again. Like Groundhog day... lol

And yes I am convinced that some people just don't know how to embrace any optimism at all about this team. No matter what our record becomes or how well we are doing.

I'm actually VERY optimistic about this team.

But the pollyannas are tiresome even when the arrow is pointing up.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'd be interested in seeing posts about Eli  
Dr. D : 5/4/2021 11:35 am : link
In comment 15253000 Scooter185 said:
Quote:
In comment 15252963 Dr. D said:


Quote:


In comment 15252951 Bear vs Shark said:


Quote:



They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".


That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?

And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.



But the NFL as a whole isn't going to be giving QBs that time to develop anymore, which is why these comparisons to Eli and Simms are silly. It's not a NYG thing, it's an NFL thing. Between rookie contracts/options and the confluence of the college and pro games, teams need their first round QB picks to be "the guy" by year three.

Unless changes are made to the CBA, what we saw with the Jets and Darnold is going to become the norm for teams that don't have "the guy"

I acknowledged that it's a different era, but considering the circumstances (e.g., Kevin Gilbride saying '21 "should be considered his 2nd year"), can we give him THIS FUCKING YEAR?

The Jets gave Darnold a 3rd year to prove himself! He failed and the Jets are moving on. That's all anyone's asking for. Jones 3rd year to prove himself.

Darnold hadn't even performed as well as Jones has his first 2 years (avg QBR low 40s vs. nearly 60). And though Darnold did have to deal with a new coach and offense, it wasn't during the fucking pandemic, preventing OTAs, preseason, etc.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'd be interested in seeing posts about Eli  
Go Terps : 5/4/2021 11:39 am : link
In comment 15253123 Dr. D said:
Quote:
In comment 15253000 Scooter185 said:


Quote:


In comment 15252963 Dr. D said:


Quote:


In comment 15252951 Bear vs Shark said:


Quote:



They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".


That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?

And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.



But the NFL as a whole isn't going to be giving QBs that time to develop anymore, which is why these comparisons to Eli and Simms are silly. It's not a NYG thing, it's an NFL thing. Between rookie contracts/options and the confluence of the college and pro games, teams need their first round QB picks to be "the guy" by year three.

Unless changes are made to the CBA, what we saw with the Jets and Darnold is going to become the norm for teams that don't have "the guy"


I acknowledged that it's a different era, but considering the circumstances (e.g., Kevin Gilbride saying '21 "should be considered his 2nd year"), can we give him THIS FUCKING YEAR?

The Jets gave Darnold a 3rd year to prove himself! He failed and the Jets are moving on. That's all anyone's asking for. Jones 3rd year to prove himself.

Darnold hadn't even performed as well as Jones has his first 2 years (avg QBR low 40s vs. nearly 60). And though Darnold did have to deal with a new coach and offense, it wasn't during the fucking pandemic, preventing OTAs, preseason, etc.


So then isn't Darnold a cautionary tale not to give a guy the third year?

An entire season seems a steep price to conduct an experiment on one player hoping he gives you a result he's never displayed on the field.

The Giants are chasing a myth in 2021 with Jones.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'd be interested in seeing posts about Eli  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/4/2021 11:40 am : link
In comment 15253123 Dr. D said:
Quote:
In comment 15253000 Scooter185 said:


Quote:


In comment 15252963 Dr. D said:


Quote:


In comment 15252951 Bear vs Shark said:


Quote:



They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".


That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?

And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.



But the NFL as a whole isn't going to be giving QBs that time to develop anymore, which is why these comparisons to Eli and Simms are silly. It's not a NYG thing, it's an NFL thing. Between rookie contracts/options and the confluence of the college and pro games, teams need their first round QB picks to be "the guy" by year three.

Unless changes are made to the CBA, what we saw with the Jets and Darnold is going to become the norm for teams that don't have "the guy"


I acknowledged that it's a different era, but considering the circumstances (e.g., Kevin Gilbride saying '21 "should be considered his 2nd year"), can we give him THIS FUCKING YEAR?

The Jets gave Darnold a 3rd year to prove himself! He failed and the Jets are moving on. That's all anyone's asking for. Jones 3rd year to prove himself.

Darnold hadn't even performed as well as Jones has his first 2 years (avg QBR low 40s vs. nearly 60). And though Darnold did have to deal with a new coach and offense, it wasn't during the fucking pandemic, preventing OTAs, preseason, etc.

Are you joking around right now?

Jones IS getting that third year. No one is disputing that.

We're just discussing the team's future on a fucking message board.
RE: I'd be interested in seeing posts about Eli  
santacruzom : 5/4/2021 11:41 am : link
In comment 15252938 Dr. D said:
Quote:

Fortunately the HC, GM, et al. don't agree with the haters. And if D. Jones does prove himself this year, we'll be SO much further towards the end goal than we would be if we hit reset again.


Here's the thing though: "Fortunately, the Giants don't agree with the haters" is the exact sort of argument that was applied towards' Beckham's critics, all the way up to the point where Beckham was finally traded. Beckham's critics acknowledged his transcendental talent but were confident he would never learn to suppress his ego or selfishness, and would always wind up biting the team in the ass.

I see similarities here with most of Jones' critics/skeptics. Most of those who've said we should move on when an opportunity presents itself aren't ignoring his good games or good qualities. They just don't think they'll offset his bad ones. Is that really so crazy?
RE: Britt- you know as well as I do  
The Mike : 5/4/2021 11:42 am : link
In comment 15253091 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
that minds are made up here by some posters, that Jones is garbage, they should draft a QB 1st rd every year, or trade the next 5 drafts for Aaron Rogers.
And spend all the draft picks every year on OL until the unit is "fixed".
(i.e. you CANT have a productive conversation on the QB when those fans have a "win NOW, no excuses, even if he has to play all 11 positions by himself simultaneously)


This is the classic "throw the first punch" and then complain that there is fighting in this establishment...

If "win now" isn't the objective, what is? Lose now but have lots of moral victories? Wait another decade to win? Thanks, but no thanks. Had my fill of that in the 1970s and this last decade.

The only objective is to start competing effectively and beating top tier NFL teams. NOW. Daniel Jones has yet to beat a winning team even once in his two years here. Can't say that about Eli. Can't say that about Phil. Can't even say that about Dave Brown.

When Jones starts beating good teams, the sentiment will change in his direction. Until then, skepticism will reign and the debate should rightfully rage on.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'd be interested in seeing posts about Eli  
Bill L : 5/4/2021 11:43 am : link
In comment 15253130 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15253123 Dr. D said:


Quote:


In comment 15253000 Scooter185 said:


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In comment 15252963 Dr. D said:


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In comment 15252951 Bear vs Shark said:


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They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".


That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?

And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.



But the NFL as a whole isn't going to be giving QBs that time to develop anymore, which is why these comparisons to Eli and Simms are silly. It's not a NYG thing, it's an NFL thing. Between rookie contracts/options and the confluence of the college and pro games, teams need their first round QB picks to be "the guy" by year three.

Unless changes are made to the CBA, what we saw with the Jets and Darnold is going to become the norm for teams that don't have "the guy"


I acknowledged that it's a different era, but considering the circumstances (e.g., Kevin Gilbride saying '21 "should be considered his 2nd year"), can we give him THIS FUCKING YEAR?

The Jets gave Darnold a 3rd year to prove himself! He failed and the Jets are moving on. That's all anyone's asking for. Jones 3rd year to prove himself.

Darnold hadn't even performed as well as Jones has his first 2 years (avg QBR low 40s vs. nearly 60). And though Darnold did have to deal with a new coach and offense, it wasn't during the fucking pandemic, preventing OTAs, preseason, etc.


Are you joking around right now?

Jones IS getting that third year. No one is disputing that.

We're just discussing the team's future on a fucking message board.

Read the post above yours.
Huh??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/4/2021 11:43 am : link
What's the cautionary tale here??

Quote:
So then isn't Darnold a cautionary tale not to give a guy the third year?

An entire season seems a steep price to conduct an experiment on one player hoping he gives you a result he's never displayed on the field.

The Giants are chasing a myth in 2021 with Jones.


What progress did Darnold retard on the Jets? They moved away from him after year three, actually got something in return and drafted his successor.

And Darnold is a starting QB still in the league
RE: RE: Just start a thread...  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2021 11:45 am : link
In comment 15253119 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15253113 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


... with "Jones" in the title.

And watch it dissolve into this same shitty back forth over and over again. Like Groundhog day... lol

And yes I am convinced that some people just don't know how to embrace any optimism at all about this team. No matter what our record becomes or how well we are doing.


I'm actually VERY optimistic about this team.

But the pollyannas are tiresome even when the arrow is pointing up.


And I am optimistic as well now that JJ has started stretching his elbows a bit more around roster building. They have plugged for a lot of holes this offseason and with some decent QB play I think the NFCE division is for the taking.

Far from any title thoughts though until you start seeing them beating some of the stronger teams. But optimism nonetheless.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You know....  
Brown_Hornet : 5/4/2021 11:48 am : link
In comment 15253110 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15253104 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


In comment 15253076 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.

Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?

Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?


And that's what it's always about for you. Enjoyment. Not winning, just enjoyment.

Same reason why you celebrated the pregame shows two years ago.

I just don't understand why it doesn't matter to you for the Giants to actually be good at football.

Dunk, that's unwarranted and unfair.
I enjoy football. I also enjoy winning.

I'd be Britt is the same.

This is more about enjoying BBI than it is about enjoying Giants football.



No, it's more than BBI. Otherwise he wouldn't have been celebrating how much enjoyed the pregame shows after OBJ was traded.

He appears to have a very strict framework for the sort of Giants team that he wants to root for, and he'll buy in for that product regardless of whether it delivers wins.

That's not to say that he doesn't enjoy the wins as much as any Giants fan. But he sure does excuse the losses a lot more if they satisfy his sitcom expectation for the team.

After the mess that was made re: OBj, I was happy for the trade.
(I missed Britt's post)

I think that "making excuses" may be very similar to, "accepting that which we cannot control."

I would argue, you are also "bought in," we all are.

We get to decide whether to complain/accept/excuse/vilify/enjoy...
...

There is not as much to like as dislike about DJ, right now...and I'm all-in. (because the alternative is...?)

That said, there seems to be more to like than dislike about DG. While I agree that we need to wait to see how the trades/drafts unfold, does that not make the case that when disparaging him, we should also wait to see how the trades/drafts unfold?

I enjoy conversation about W/Ls, analytics and the like.
I really enjoy breaking down film. (wish we could get Giants games on HUDL)

But, at the end of the day...
...I root for the guys on the roster. When one leaves, I root for a different guy.
Terps  
ryanmkeane : 5/4/2021 11:51 am : link
“Chasing a myth” applies to 85-90% of all franchise quarterbacks. You draft them when you likely aren’t a good team, build sound said team, and hope the quarterbacks develops into a legit pro bowl franchise type guy.

I don’t understand why this concept is so hard to grasp at BBI. I don’t know why all of a sudden BBI became the “quarterbacks must be good immediately!” Message board because it’s not realistic. Go root for the Chiefs if you think that way.

Our roster absolutely sucked when Jones was drafted. They have done a good job since that time acquiring talent around him to set him for success. Yeah - it’s on him to play well even when things aren’t going his way. But you can’t expect that immediately, it takes time. If he’s still not getting it done in year 3 and doesn’t elevate his teammates in year 3, it’ll be time to look at another solution.

This notion that “oh the giants are just HOPING he’s good.”…….yeah no fucking shit.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You know....  
Britt in VA : 5/4/2021 11:53 am : link
In comment 15253110 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15253104 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


In comment 15253076 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15252895 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.

Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?

Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?


And that's what it's always about for you. Enjoyment. Not winning, just enjoyment.

Same reason why you celebrated the pregame shows two years ago.

I just don't understand why it doesn't matter to you for the Giants to actually be good at football.

Dunk, that's unwarranted and unfair.
I enjoy football. I also enjoy winning.

I'd be Britt is the same.

This is more about enjoying BBI than it is about enjoying Giants football.



No, it's more than BBI. Otherwise he wouldn't have been celebrating how much enjoyed the pregame shows after OBJ was traded.

He appears to have a very strict framework for the sort of Giants team that he wants to root for, and he'll buy in for that product regardless of whether it delivers wins.

That's not to say that he doesn't enjoy the wins as much as any Giants fan. But he sure does excuse the losses a lot more if they satisfy his sitcom expectation for the team.


So now your creating fictional narratives for other posters now, too? That is pretty outrageous.

Again, I'll abstain from doing the same to you.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You know....  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2021 11:56 am : link
In comment 15253148 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:

There is not as much to like as dislike about DJ, right now...and I'm all-in. (because the alternative is...?)

That said, there seems to be more to like than dislike about DG. While I agree that we need to wait to see how the trades/drafts unfold, does that not make the case that when disparaging him, we should also wait to see how the trades/drafts unfold?

I enjoy conversation about W/Ls, analytics and the like.
I really enjoy breaking down film. (wish we could get Giants games on HUDL)



And yet other posters still like to converse about how trades/drafts unfolded for many past years, and how they might for years to come. Some don't have to wait and see to actually just type an opinion or make a point.

And its actually ok to do so...
You've gotten pretty good at conjuring up stories....  
Britt in VA : 5/4/2021 11:56 am : link
maybe you should do some writing for some of those sitcoms you mention.
RE: You've gotten pretty good at conjuring up stories....  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/4/2021 12:04 pm : link
In comment 15253166 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
maybe you should do some writing for some of those sitcoms you mention.

You didn't start a thread celebrating how much more you enjoyed pregame shows (not games, just pregame shows) after OBJ was traded?

That's fiction?
RE: RE: RE: You know....  
bw in dc : 5/4/2021 12:12 pm : link
In comment 15253101 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:

C'mon man. FFS, you don't get the emotional side of managing humans at all. When the QB is willing to play hurt it matters. Every single championship season I watched this team play has been lead by warriors. Men that choose to sacrifice themselves for their brothers. When teams talk about culture it is this that they are trying to build. It is why OBJ had to go. When the QB is one the guys that is an example for toughness, the whole thing comes together. Think, Phil, Eli, Hoss. Those were tough bastards. Get someone on the D to match and we got something. You think LW has not been hurt in the trenches? He plays, it is a big reason why he was traded for and overpaid. You are taking shots at people that are going to be the reason you celebrate another championship. If you believe in Judge and Judge believes in DJ, what does that mean to you? If you tell me that Mara would force Judge to keep a bad young QB, I lose all respect for your opinions.


Again, this isn't about toughness or praising Jones's toughness, it's about questioning the the medical team and coaches. Not Mara. I have never mentioned Mara.

If Jones was as hurt as Judge suggests, and Jones wasn't going to be use his mobility, his key asset because he still isn't close to a refined pocket QB, than Jones shouldn't have been playing and we possibly lost at least one game - Arizona - because Jones wasn't truly ready to play.

Here is a stat I read today in NJ.com. In the first 10 games before suffering the hamstring injury, Jones averaged five rushes per game at a 7.8 yards per carry. In his final three games he played after the injury, Jones averaged 3.3 rushes and two yards per carry. So he was clearly incapable of using his best asset. And I think that hurt us in our attempt to win the division...

RE: RE: You've gotten pretty good at conjuring up stories....  
Britt in VA : 5/4/2021 12:22 pm : link
In comment 15253183 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15253166 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


maybe you should do some writing for some of those sitcoms you mention.


You didn't start a thread celebrating how much more you enjoyed pregame shows (not games, just pregame shows) after OBJ was traded?

That's fiction?


I don't remember if I did. Why do you so clearly?

This has gone far enough, it's too contentious and dare I say crossed a line of nastiness that it's not really entertaining or productive.

I'm done with this.
RE: RE: RE: You've gotten pretty good at conjuring up stories....  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/4/2021 12:24 pm : link
In comment 15253210 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15253183 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15253166 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


maybe you should do some writing for some of those sitcoms you mention.


You didn't start a thread celebrating how much more you enjoyed pregame shows (not games, just pregame shows) after OBJ was traded?

That's fiction?



I don't remember if I did. Why do you so clearly?

This has gone far enough, it's too contentious and dare I say crossed a line of nastiness that it's not really entertaining or productive.

I'm done with this.

I remember very clearly that you did. Because my immediate reaction was, "why TF would anyone care about enjoying pregame shows more after a player was traded?"

I'm happy to go find the thread if you'd like. I don't think there's anything nasty about that, do you?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'd be interested in seeing posts about Eli  
bw in dc : 5/4/2021 12:24 pm : link
In comment 15253129 Go Terps said:
Quote:

So then isn't Darnold a cautionary tale not to give a guy the third year?

An entire season seems a steep price to conduct an experiment on one player hoping he gives you a result he's never displayed on the field.

The Giants are chasing a myth in 2021 with Jones.


Like I said when the Jets very unexpectedly secured a second round pick for Darnold, we should have seriously considered trading Jones because I think we could have actually sniffed a first. Especially from the Bears, ironically, who were desperate to give up picks to find a QB.

So if Jones struggles this year, and somehow we actually decide to move on, the debate will once again be this - could we have found a better solution in this past draft than the upcoming draft? Because right now the QBs that were drafted last week look considerably better than the QBs in next year's class. By a considerable margin.

Granted, that could change. But I wouldn't bet on that right now.

Although Googs did raise a good point earlier that we could use those '22 picks to trade for a QB instead.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You've gotten pretty good at conjuring up stories....  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/4/2021 12:25 pm : link
In comment 15253215 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15253210 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 15253183 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15253166 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


maybe you should do some writing for some of those sitcoms you mention.


You didn't start a thread celebrating how much more you enjoyed pregame shows (not games, just pregame shows) after OBJ was traded?

That's fiction?



I don't remember if I did. Why do you so clearly?

This has gone far enough, it's too contentious and dare I say crossed a line of nastiness that it's not really entertaining or productive.

I'm done with this.


I remember very clearly that you did. Because my immediate reaction was, "why TF would anyone care about enjoying pregame shows more after a player was traded?"

I'm happy to go find the thread if you'd like. I don't think there's anything nasty about that, do you?

Maybe we can answer it more quickly:

Did you enjoy pregame shows more after OBJ was traded?
RE: RE: RE: RE: LeonBright45  
Bear vs Shark : 5/4/2021 12:28 pm : link
In comment 15253034 LeonBright45 said:
Quote:
In comment 15253022 Bear vs Shark said:


Quote:


In comment 15252990 LeonBright45 said:


Quote:


In comment 15252866 Bear vs Shark said:


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Stop acting like everyone needs to share your opinion. You're coming hot at santacruzom who's been a great poster for a long time and never really fought with anyone -- simply because he doesn't share your opinion.

At the end of the day, EVERYONE - I'd bet even Go Terps - would want to see DJ become a great QB. The question right now is if he's on track to do so.

At worst, that question is up in the air. Coming in and pretending like anyone who questions whether Jones will actually be a good starter for NYG has a "bullshit opinion" is asinine.



Who TF put you in charge?? Fuck off "MOM"

Nobody put me in charge -- I'm just telling you that you sound like a homer, a crybaby, and a petulant little child. Feel free to continue making yourself look like a fool because people have the audacity to question if Daniel fucking Jones is going to end up being a franchise QB or not (as if that isn't a valid question to ask).

When you're the one sitting there acting like there's no argument at all *against* him being a franchise QB, you're the one living in fantasy land.



The argument doesn't hold water. The offensive line has been horrible and the receivers haven't been much better. The kid deserves a fair test and until he fails he deserves the benefit of the doubt.
So what you're saying is that any argument whatsoever that Jones has not shown enough to have conviction that he is the franchise QB is automatically null and void and holds no water?
RE: RE: Mike  
Mike from Ohio : 5/4/2021 12:30 pm : link
In comment 15253111 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 15252837 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


again, arguing with you is completely pointless. I’m not calling anyone an idiot for having a different opinion. But this is a message board, and I’m going to call out blatant bullshit when I see it. Such as conflating - which is what you do every single time.



Okay, kudos to you for not literally calling people idiots when their opinion differs from yours. You're just calling their opinions blatant bullshit, which is much better.


You can't converse with zealots. There is no point in trying.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'd be interested in seeing posts about Eli  
Thegratefulhead : 5/4/2021 12:33 pm : link
In comment 15253217 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15253129 Go Terps said:


Quote:



So then isn't Darnold a cautionary tale not to give a guy the third year?

An entire season seems a steep price to conduct an experiment on one player hoping he gives you a result he's never displayed on the field.

The Giants are chasing a myth in 2021 with Jones.



Like I said when the Jets very unexpectedly secured a second round pick for Darnold, we should have seriously considered trading Jones because I think we could have actually sniffed a first. Especially from the Bears, ironically, who were desperate to give up picks to find a QB.

So if Jones struggles this year, and somehow we actually decide to move on, the debate will once again be this - could we have found a better solution in this past draft than the upcoming draft? Because right now the QBs that were drafted last week look considerably better than the QBs in next year's class. By a considerable margin.

Granted, that could change. But I wouldn't bet on that right now.

Although Googs did raise a good point earlier that we could use those '22 picks to trade for a QB instead.
Absurdity. There is not a team in the NFL that would move on from Jones right now because of last year. None. Every team in the league would be giving Jones a third year based on his specific circumstance.

You want Jones gone before he has a chance to make you look stupid and his success will make the magnitude of the DG complaining look childish. Stop making such definitive statements on things you have no expertise or pertinent information on and you wont be forced into fitting everything that happens into a narrow narrative.

You have no access to the information necessary to make such strong statements.
RE: RE: Did BW really compare a bruise to two actual serious injuries  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/4/2021 12:34 pm : link
In comment 15253102 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15252782 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


Jesus fucking Christ. You’d think he was bleeding internally the way he talks about that play. He got a bruise and got shot up so he could deal with it later. He was fine. Somehow these two things are comparable.



I wrote:



Quote:


But he (Fields) dug deep, managed the agony, and threw three more TD passes against Clemson (he finished with six) to lead OSU to a dominant W. That's being tough and still being productive...



The point being Field was able to keep playing, despite obviously being hurt, and still be productive. Let me write that word again - productive. And that's been my point all along - if you are hurt, but you can play and still be productive, than that still helps the team.

Jones was hurt but couldn't be productive.

And I know you are smart enough to get the point.


Yeah because they were two completely different level of injuries. In fact Fields wasn't even hurt. He was bruised, big difference.

That needs to be a coach's decision if your QB wants to gut it out. He probably thought he'd be more productive than what the backup could give. And he almost pulled him until DJ led the TD drive.
RE: Bear...  
santacruzom : 5/4/2021 12:36 pm : link
In comment 15252971 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
..."That's why I think it's silly that people are acting like those who aren't bought in on Jones are "bad fans", or don't have valid opinions."

I'm not sure that anyone is saying this.


You know, that's a good point. Really in this thread the only people who are saying that are a bit, shall we say, uncivil. It's probably not reasonable to act like they represent any sort of majority.
i'm sure many QB's stay productive in college  
UConn4523 : 5/4/2021 12:36 pm : link
when hurt. That nice fat OL and top tier skill position players typically make that achievable. Lets see what Fields has playing in the NFL with a bad hammy.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You know....  
Section331 : 5/4/2021 12:36 pm : link
In comment 15253196 bw in dc said:
Quote:

Here is a stat I read today in NJ.com. In the first 10 games before suffering the hamstring injury, Jones averaged five rushes per game at a 7.8 yards per carry. In his final three games he played after the injury, Jones averaged 3.3 rushes and two yards per carry. So he was clearly incapable of using his best asset. And I think that hurt us in our attempt to win the division...


If running is his best asset, we are in a world of trouble. He's a good runner with very good straightline speed, but let's not make him out to be Lamar Jackson or Kyler Murray. If he can't make plays from the pocket, we will be looking for a new QB next year.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I would enjoy Jones while you can  
santacruzom : 5/4/2021 12:41 pm : link
In comment 15253054 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15253021 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:




Well, part of the Jones decision at the end of 2021 is going to have to include what does that QB crop look like for the 2022 Draft. Way too early for anybody to weigh in there.

There are other options than extending DJ or just drafting a QB. They can wait another year to make a heavier investment in a college prospect. But obviously that comes with the cost of waiting as other player contracts get a year older and the extra #1 is right now only for 2022.

They can also trade for an NFL QB and have lot of picks in their pocket to do it.



That's true about using the picks to possibly acquire another QB via trade - good point.

But not all draft classes are created equal. So just because the last few looked good we shouldn't assume the next class will look similar. Because right now it isn't shaping up to that attractive outside of Howell and maybe - maybe - Rattler.


Right now I feel confident that Slough will enter the conversation by November.
Er  
santacruzom : 5/4/2021 12:42 pm : link
Shough
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'd be interested in seeing posts about Eli  
Go Terps : 5/4/2021 12:43 pm : link
In comment 15253228 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15253217 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15253129 Go Terps said:


Quote:



So then isn't Darnold a cautionary tale not to give a guy the third year?

An entire season seems a steep price to conduct an experiment on one player hoping he gives you a result he's never displayed on the field.

The Giants are chasing a myth in 2021 with Jones.



Like I said when the Jets very unexpectedly secured a second round pick for Darnold, we should have seriously considered trading Jones because I think we could have actually sniffed a first. Especially from the Bears, ironically, who were desperate to give up picks to find a QB.

So if Jones struggles this year, and somehow we actually decide to move on, the debate will once again be this - could we have found a better solution in this past draft than the upcoming draft? Because right now the QBs that were drafted last week look considerably better than the QBs in next year's class. By a considerable margin.

Granted, that could change. But I wouldn't bet on that right now.

Although Googs did raise a good point earlier that we could use those '22 picks to trade for a QB instead.

Absurdity. There is not a team in the NFL that would move on from Jones right now because of last year. None. Every team in the league would be giving Jones a third year based on his specific circumstance.

You want Jones gone before he has a chance to make you look stupid and his success will make the magnitude of the DG complaining look childish. Stop making such definitive statements on things you have no expertise or pertinent information on and you wont be forced into fitting everything that happens into a narrow narrative.

You have no access to the information necessary to make such strong statements.


You're the one making strong statements..."Every team in the league would be giving Jones a third year based on his specific circumstance."

You make that statement despite having no expertise.

Here's what we do know:

- Jones was perhaps the least productive college quarterback drafted in the first round in the past decade
- Jones has had a very low level of production in two years in the NFL

That's what we know, definitively.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: LeonBright45  
Thegratefulhead : 5/4/2021 12:43 pm : link
In comment 15253220 Bear vs Shark said:
Quote:
In comment 15253034 LeonBright45 said:


Quote:


In comment 15253022 Bear vs Shark said:


Quote:


In comment 15252990 LeonBright45 said:


Quote:


In comment 15252866 Bear vs Shark said:


Quote:


Stop acting like everyone needs to share your opinion. You're coming hot at santacruzom who's been a great poster for a long time and never really fought with anyone -- simply because he doesn't share your opinion.

At the end of the day, EVERYONE - I'd bet even Go Terps - would want to see DJ become a great QB. The question right now is if he's on track to do so.

At worst, that question is up in the air. Coming in and pretending like anyone who questions whether Jones will actually be a good starter for NYG has a "bullshit opinion" is asinine.



Who TF put you in charge?? Fuck off "MOM"

Nobody put me in charge -- I'm just telling you that you sound like a homer, a crybaby, and a petulant little child. Feel free to continue making yourself look like a fool because people have the audacity to question if Daniel fucking Jones is going to end up being a franchise QB or not (as if that isn't a valid question to ask).

When you're the one sitting there acting like there's no argument at all *against* him being a franchise QB, you're the one living in fantasy land.



The argument doesn't hold water. The offensive line has been horrible and the receivers haven't been much better. The kid deserves a fair test and until he fails he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

So what you're saying is that any argument whatsoever that Jones has not shown enough to have conviction that he is the franchise QB is automatically null and void and holds no water?
I have neither the conviction or information necessary to say if he is a franchise QB or not yet. I desperately want that answer. I get the answers this year.

It is very possible that Jones shows enough next year to earn him another year that does not satisfy some as good enough. We will all have different degrees there.

The camp that believes things are changing because Judge has new power, should trust in him if he continues to extend the Jones experiment. Or is it going to be good decisions are Judge's and anything they disagree with is a mandate from Mara or DG? That kind of reasoning makes me laugh out loud at my computer. It deserves no response from anyone. It is absurdity.
I take it back - you didn't START the thread  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/4/2021 12:46 pm : link
but you sure did miller the heck out of it defending your position on enjoying pregame shows.

There's a ton of now-outdated posts on that thread (including a lot of salary cap arguments that I made that are not especially valid anymore since the Giants have changed their cap approach - although they were definitely valid that offseason), but what is clear as day is how refreshed you were about a pregame show.

Maybe if you didn't try to apply the same thoughtless cookie-cutter approach to defending the Giants and actually offered some genuine critical thinking, people would take you more seriously. But for whatever reason, you seem unwilling to do that.


Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'd be interested in seeing posts about Eli  
Thegratefulhead : 5/4/2021 12:48 pm : link
In comment 15253248 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15253228 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 15253217 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15253129 Go Terps said:


Quote:



So then isn't Darnold a cautionary tale not to give a guy the third year?

An entire season seems a steep price to conduct an experiment on one player hoping he gives you a result he's never displayed on the field.

The Giants are chasing a myth in 2021 with Jones.



Like I said when the Jets very unexpectedly secured a second round pick for Darnold, we should have seriously considered trading Jones because I think we could have actually sniffed a first. Especially from the Bears, ironically, who were desperate to give up picks to find a QB.

So if Jones struggles this year, and somehow we actually decide to move on, the debate will once again be this - could we have found a better solution in this past draft than the upcoming draft? Because right now the QBs that were drafted last week look considerably better than the QBs in next year's class. By a considerable margin.

Granted, that could change. But I wouldn't bet on that right now.

Although Googs did raise a good point earlier that we could use those '22 picks to trade for a QB instead.

Absurdity. There is not a team in the NFL that would move on from Jones right now because of last year. None. Every team in the league would be giving Jones a third year based on his specific circumstance.

You want Jones gone before he has a chance to make you look stupid and his success will make the magnitude of the DG complaining look childish. Stop making such definitive statements on things you have no expertise or pertinent information on and you wont be forced into fitting everything that happens into a narrow narrative.

You have no access to the information necessary to make such strong statements.



You're the one making strong statements..."Every team in the league would be giving Jones a third year based on his specific circumstance."

You make that statement despite having no expertise.

Here's what we do know:

- Jones was perhaps the least productive college quarterback drafted in the first round in the past decade
- Jones has had a very low level of production in two years in the NFL

That's what we know, definitively.
For one, the circumstance is unique and related to Covid. 2 year QB and one of those years was Covid year.

The person with the most accurate and pertinent inside information on Jones is saying what? The guy with supposed power could have drafted Fields or Jones.

What did they do?

Ignore what they say.

What did they do?

They got him a weapon in the first round, not his replacement.
RE: I take it back - you didn't START the thread  
Britt in VA : 5/4/2021 12:52 pm : link
In comment 15253256 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
but you sure did miller the heck out of it defending your position on enjoying pregame shows.

There's a ton of now-outdated posts on that thread (including a lot of salary cap arguments that I made that are not especially valid anymore since the Giants have changed their cap approach - although they were definitely valid that offseason), but what is clear as day is how refreshed you were about a pregame show.

Maybe if you didn't try to apply the same thoughtless cookie-cutter approach to defending the Giants and actually offered some genuine critical thinking, people would take you more seriously. But for whatever reason, you seem unwilling to do that.
Link - ( New Window )


Are you high right now?

There is literally one post by me on that thread about the pre-game show. I said I enjoyed watching Barkley break down film more than I liked OBJ's sitdown with little wayne.

And what does this have to do with anything?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'd be interested in seeing posts about Eli  
bw in dc : 5/4/2021 12:57 pm : link
In comment 15253228 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
Absurdity. There is not a team in the NFL that would move on from Jones right now because of last year. None. Every team in the league would be giving Jones a third year based on his specific circumstance.

You want Jones gone before he has a chance to make you look stupid and his success will make the magnitude of the DG complaining look childish. Stop making such definitive statements on things you have no expertise or pertinent information on and you wont be forced into fitting everything that happens into a narrow narrative.

You have no access to the information necessary to make such strong statements.


I absolutely have information. And that's the market dictating the value of Darnold. So he's now a very good proxy to Jones.

Darnold been equally as poor as Jones - if not worse - yet the Jets were able to grab a second rounder. So why on earth would it be unreasonable to conclude we could possibly get a first for Jones?

Just to be clear, in no way am I saying Jones would be worth that in my eyes. But there was information before the 2019 draft that teams did like Jones as a QB prospect. And now we know there was a very good market for Darnold, who, again, isn't any better than Jones...
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/4/2021 12:58 pm : link
This we know definitively?? You seemingly can't fucking help yourself and have to just post needless shit:

Quote:
Here's what we do know:

- Jones was perhaps the least productive college quarterback drafted in the first round in the past decade
- Jones has had a very low level of production in two years in the NFL

That's what we know, definitively.


Let's look at QB's production:

QB 1: 60% completion rate, 8201 yds passing 52 TD's 29 INTS. 1,323 rushing yards

QB2: 56% completion rate, 5,066 yards 44TD's 21 INTs, 767 rushing yards

QB3: 65% completion rate, 7,229 yards 57 TD's 22 INTs, 332 rushing yards

QB4: 62% completion rate, 5,450 yards, 42 TD's 21 INT's, 369 yards rushing

Can you name who has the worst stats there and who each QB is??

Hint - QB4 was a Big 12 QB where defenses are non-existent....
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You know....  
bw in dc : 5/4/2021 1:00 pm : link
In comment 15253237 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15253196 bw in dc said:


Quote:



Here is a stat I read today in NJ.com. In the first 10 games before suffering the hamstring injury, Jones averaged five rushes per game at a 7.8 yards per carry. In his final three games he played after the injury, Jones averaged 3.3 rushes and two yards per carry. So he was clearly incapable of using his best asset. And I think that hurt us in our attempt to win the division...




If running is his best asset, we are in a world of trouble. He's a good runner with very good straightline speed, but let's not make him out to be Lamar Jackson or Kyler Murray. If he can't make plays from the pocket, we will be looking for a new QB next year.


I wasn't suggesting Jones is in the same universe as LJax nd Murray as a runner. I meant who was mobile and he had the ability to get out of the pocket and perhaps save plays.

And I agree, if Jones could be a pocket passer - or at least considerably better than he is now - were will be back in the market looking for another solution...
RE: Terps  
Scooter185 : 5/4/2021 1:01 pm : link
In comment 15253156 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
“Chasing a myth” applies to 85-90% of all franchise quarterbacks. You draft them when you likely aren’t a good team, build sound said team, and hope the quarterbacks develops into a legit pro bowl franchise type guy.

I don’t understand why this concept is so hard to grasp at BBI. I don’t know why all of a sudden BBI became the “quarterbacks must be good immediately!” Message board because it’s not realistic. Go root for the Chiefs if you think that way.

Our roster absolutely sucked when Jones was drafted. They have done a good job since that time acquiring talent around him to set him for success. Yeah - it’s on him to play well even when things aren’t going his way. But you can’t expect that immediately, it takes time. If he’s still not getting it done in year 3 and doesn’t elevate his teammates in year 3, it’ll be time to look at another solution.

This notion that “oh the giants are just HOPING he’s good.”…….yeah no fucking shit.


Leagues change. NBA the focus is on the 3 ball now; NHL speed and skill matter more than size and grinding; MLB is about launch angle, exit velo, spin rate, etc; and the NFL is about passing and QB play. Round 1 QBs may get redshirted a year, but otherwise they're going to be expected to hit the ground running. Every fan of teams that drafted QBs this year are going to be expecting them to be good right away.
FMIC  
Go Terps : 5/4/2021 1:04 pm : link
I've covered this already...

College stats for every QB drafted in round 1 since 2011:

RE: RE: I take it back - you didn't START the thread  
Thegratefulhead : 5/4/2021 1:05 pm : link
In comment 15253272 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15253256 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


but you sure did miller the heck out of it defending your position on enjoying pregame shows.

There's a ton of now-outdated posts on that thread (including a lot of salary cap arguments that I made that are not especially valid anymore since the Giants have changed their cap approach - although they were definitely valid that offseason), but what is clear as day is how refreshed you were about a pregame show.

Maybe if you didn't try to apply the same thoughtless cookie-cutter approach to defending the Giants and actually offered some genuine critical thinking, people would take you more seriously. But for whatever reason, you seem unwilling to do that.
Link - ( New Window )



Are you high right now?

There is literally one post by me on that thread about the pre-game show. I said I enjoyed watching Barkley break down film more than I liked OBJ's sitdown with little wayne.

And what does this have to do with anything?
They are attacking you instead of your argument it should be obvious why.

We had a great offseason and draft. Admittedly the NFC east was a shit show last year. We were in it up until the end. I don't care why. There is no sure thing is this division.

We had a great FA period.

The draft is the most respected that I can ever remember.

BBI should be celebrating.

BW & Terps love Giants as much as Britt & FMiC.

They do.

They just express it differently.

The former hate the losing so much that they spend enormous amounts of time here venting about it. They hold those in charge accountable.

Britt & FMiC hate the losing just as much, they come here and blow up at the people attacking their guys instead of attacking management.

I see the same people, people that like the team more than they should.

We are all the same.

We want the Giants to win.

Badly.

Worth remembering.
Terps...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/4/2021 1:10 pm : link
you said that it was definitive that Jones was one of the least productive QB's in college and yet, we can pull at several examples of QB's taken in the Top 10 that are similar or worse to him.

I'm not sure your grasp of the word definitive is strong, nor does pulling out a table that doesn't even include rushing yards
.  
Go Terps : 5/4/2021 1:17 pm : link
There are no 1st round QBs that were clearly worse than Jones in the last 10 years. The only passing numbers he has that aren't near the bottom are completions and attempts; he needed a lot of passes to put up his relatively meager stats.

I concede I didn't do the same exercise for rushing yards. I'd be all in favor of using him much more as a rushing threat...I think his speed in the open field is a really good asset. It wouldn't surprise me though if the Giants use him less as a runner after being spooked by his injuries.
Jones is getting the year  
Thegratefulhead : 5/4/2021 1:18 pm : link
Is there anyone that disagrees?

I think that answer is no.

The question is whether he should?

His first year was good for a rookie.

Those that say no, say circumstances matter. Stats against bad teams.

You lose me when you now ignore circumstance for Covid, everything that happened because of it and his injury. OL was awful to start, when it finally played better the kid was injured.

Can we agree we don't know and we let this year play out and see what we really have?
I think Jones has shown enough good to preserve hope...  
Big Blue Blogger : 5/4/2021 1:23 pm : link
...and enough bad to be on thin ice. I hope he steps up enough to eventually earn an extension. I have no conviction about whether or not that will happen. I appreciate his toughness. I doubt it will be a major factor in his success or failure. It could get him into trouble.

Physical toughness is less important at QB than it was in the 80s and earlier. Tom Brady hates getting hit. That hasn’t stopped him from winning more Super Bowls than all other active QBs combined.
RE: RE: RE: I take it back - you didn't START the thread  
Bergen346 : 5/4/2021 1:28 pm : link
In comment 15253297 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15253272 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 15253256 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


but you sure did miller the heck out of it defending your position on enjoying pregame shows.

There's a ton of now-outdated posts on that thread (including a lot of salary cap arguments that I made that are not especially valid anymore since the Giants have changed their cap approach - although they were definitely valid that offseason), but what is clear as day is how refreshed you were about a pregame show.

Maybe if you didn't try to apply the same thoughtless cookie-cutter approach to defending the Giants and actually offered some genuine critical thinking, people would take you more seriously. But for whatever reason, you seem unwilling to do that.
Link - ( New Window )



Are you high right now?

There is literally one post by me on that thread about the pre-game show. I said I enjoyed watching Barkley break down film more than I liked OBJ's sitdown with little wayne.

And what does this have to do with anything?

They are attacking you instead of your argument it should be obvious why.

We had a great offseason and draft. Admittedly the NFC east was a shit show last year. We were in it up until the end. I don't care why. There is no sure thing is this division.

We had a great FA period.

The draft is the most respected that I can ever remember.

BBI should be celebrating.

BW & Terps love Giants as much as Britt & FMiC.

They do.

They just express it differently.

The former hate the losing so much that they spend enormous amounts of time here venting about it. They hold those in charge accountable.

Britt & FMiC hate the losing just as much, they come here and blow up at the people attacking their guys instead of attacking management.

I see the same people, people that like the team more than they should.

We are all the same.

We want the Giants to win.

Badly.

Worth remembering.


Couldn’t agree more, just because you are critical of the team or a player does not make you any less of a fan, in fact those who are so passionate probably are more critical because they demand excellence as they should.

With that being said, I think there is a lot of criticism that goes on here that ignores key facts. You can be critical, just don’t form an opinion in a vacuum and ignore key data points that run counter to your argument.
RE: Huh??  
BSIMatt : 5/4/2021 2:11 pm : link
In comment 15253139 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
What's the cautionary tale here??



Quote:


So then isn't Darnold a cautionary tale not to give a guy the third year?

An entire season seems a steep price to conduct an experiment on one player hoping he gives you a result he's never displayed on the field.

The Giants are chasing a myth in 2021 with Jones.



What progress did Darnold retard on the Jets? They moved away from him after year three, actually got something in return and drafted his successor.

And Darnold is a starting QB still in the league


I think he means the Jets could have drafted Jordan Love instead of Becton in 2020 and been real contenders this year instead of wasting the 2020 season. They just needed the right trigger man to put the trash roster on their back and lead them to promised land. What could have been.
Terps  
ryanmkeane : 5/4/2021 2:13 pm : link
i understand that you are a stats guy, but that chart tells me absolutely nothing. There are names on that list in the top 20 that are horrible NFL quarterbacks. There are names in the bottom 10 that are really good NFL quarterbacks.

College stats aren't meaningless, but they are close to meaningless. College systems and competition have way more to do with results than the actual player. I mean hell, by that table, Haskins should be a better NFL quarterback than Andrew Luck.
Terps  
ryanmkeane : 5/4/2021 2:15 pm : link
that table reminds me of when we were looking at drafting Barkley, and someone said we should draft Rashaad Penny instead because his stats were better.
RE: Terps  
BSIMatt : 5/4/2021 2:19 pm : link
In comment 15253384 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
that table reminds me of when we were looking at drafting Barkley, and someone said we should draft Rashaad Penny instead because his stats were better.


It's a round about way of saying Mike Leach quarterbacks are under drafted.
Just a weird addiction  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2021 2:19 pm : link
.
Keep..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/4/2021 2:23 pm : link
in mind that the table is also sorted by AY/A a stat that Go Terps continually uses to show how good a QB is rather than the way the stat is viewed by actual football people - as a measure of offensive efficiency.

That's why QB's like Haskins will look great with that stat in college. Why an OSU or Alabama or Clemson QB will look good, while a Wyoming or Duke QB won't. It also is impacted by the calibre of team and defense teams are facing.

There was a claim that Jones is "definitively" worse than the other 1st round QB and yet if somebody tells me something is definitive, I usually can't recite off several examples showing otherwise.
If you can't say you are rooting for Jones this year  
Gmen88 : 5/4/2021 2:27 pm : link
is there really anything else to say? At that point you care about being right more than the Giants winning football games.
So we are trading the Bears pick for Nick Mullens?  
PetesHereNow : 5/4/2021 2:27 pm : link
Or is it a second round pick? I’m so confused.
RE: Keep..  
Go Terps : 5/4/2021 2:59 pm : link
In comment 15253393 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
in mind that the table is also sorted by AY/A a stat that Go Terps continually uses to show how good a QB is rather than the way the stat is viewed by actual football people - as a measure of offensive efficiency.

That's why QB's like Haskins will look great with that stat in college. Why an OSU or Alabama or Clemson QB will look good, while a Wyoming or Duke QB won't. It also is impacted by the calibre of team and defense teams are facing.

There was a claim that Jones is "definitively" worse than the other 1st round QB and yet if somebody tells me something is definitive, I usually can't recite off several examples showing otherwise.


This is what I said:

"Here's what we do know:

- Jones was perhaps the least productive college quarterback drafted in the first round in the past decade
- Jones has had a very low level of production in two years in the NFL

That's what we know, definitively."

Further, the chart is sorted by passer rating, not AY/A. There is a high correlation between the two.

If you don't like passer rating, you can try sorting by straight Y/A or TD pass %. Jones is last out of all 49 in both categories. The only metric where Jones isn't at or very close to the bottom is INT % (he ranks 28th).

Terps  
ryanmkeane : 5/4/2021 3:06 pm : link
you can't use a chart that runs counterpoint to the entire point or argument that you are trying to make.

Just say you think Jones sucks - using a chart that says Dwayne Haskins should have been better than Andrew Luck is completely pointless
...  
christian : 5/4/2021 3:07 pm : link
I think these debates would be more interesting if the baseline was my guess is Daniel Jones will do XY&Z and here is the evidence to supports my view.

The value propositions on fanhood and legitimacy are silly.

Guessing the outcome will be bad, because you believe the evidence points that way, doesn't make you a bad fan in my view.

The vultures who fly in, pick at others, and without positing a view and having skin in the debate are the turds in my view.

I believe the evidence isn't daunting against Jones. He's had very few games where he's been both healthy and productive. I am nervous that the key to unlocking his potential requires a really good offensive line.

Seems to me the Giants chose really good skill players, over really good lineman.
Pat Mahomes  
ryanmkeane : 5/4/2021 3:08 pm : link
way way down on the list. Really nice chart.
ryan  
Go Terps : 5/4/2021 3:09 pm : link
Jones is among the least productive college QBs drafted in the first round in the last 10 years. He then has not been productive in two years in the pros.

That's all I'm saying.
You don't need a great quarterback to win a Super Bowl;  
Angel Eyes : 5/4/2021 3:10 pm : link
he just has be good enough to guide the team there. In the last 20-25 years, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Nick Foles (split with Carson Wentz) were journeymen quarterbacks who managed to win Super Bowls, yet none of them were especially great or even particularly good. But they had great teams that were able to win.

Conversely; a great quarterback can't always overcome deficiencies in their team; in the last Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes had a leaky offensive line and was battered and hurried by the Tampa Bay defense all day.
Here's what we know...  
Brown_Hornet : 5/4/2021 3:14 pm : link
...Daniel Jones will start the 2021 season as the Giants starter.

Not one statistic has been recorded for the 2021 season.

Also, not one statistic recorded prior to the 2021 NFL season will have an affect on how DJ plays in 2021.

No shutting down a debate or opinion, just pointing out that Giants fans will need to be rooting for Daniel Jones to succeed if they will also be rooting for the Giants to win football games.

RE: FMIC  
santacruzom : 5/4/2021 3:18 pm : link
In comment 15253296 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I've covered this already...

College stats for every QB drafted in round 1 since 2011:



That's a great sheet, but quite a few QBs on there were drafted after round 1.
RE: You don't need a great quarterback to win a Super Bowl;  
NYGgolfer : 5/4/2021 3:19 pm : link
In comment 15253487 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
he just has be good enough to guide the team there. In the last 20-25 years, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Nick Foles (split with Carson Wentz) were journeymen quarterbacks who managed to win Super Bowls, yet none of them were especially great or even particularly good. But they had great teams that were able to win.

Conversely; a great quarterback can't always overcome deficiencies in their team; in the last Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes had a leaky offensive line and was battered and hurried by the Tampa Bay defense all day.


While of course, this is true.

But do you think a better strategy is to just settle with a lesser QB than you would like and extend him a longer term contract because Brad Johnson was able to win a ring?
.  
Scooter185 : 5/4/2021 3:22 pm : link
I forgot to mention this earlier, but I agree with Britt that we should have a dedicated Daniel Jones thread (and probably some other players too).
RE: Terps  
santacruzom : 5/4/2021 3:24 pm : link
In comment 15253477 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
you can't use a chart that runs counterpoint to the entire point or argument that you are trying to make.


God, the point is so obvious:

-Jones didn't have a very good collegiate career, certainly not elite
-Jones has not really had a very good NFL career so far either.
-Based on both of the above, there is reason for concern.

This isn't some "This chart here is a flaws predictor of which QBs are better than others!" thing.
RE: RE: FMIC  
Go Terps : 5/4/2021 3:26 pm : link
In comment 15253507 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 15253296 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I've covered this already...

College stats for every QB drafted in round 1 since 2011:





That's a great sheet, but quite a few QBs on there were drafted after round 1.


Yeah I forget to mention on this thread (I created it a few weeks ago for another thread)...that list includes every first round quarterback and non-first round quarterbacks that have made significant contributions (or for whom the jury is still out). It goes back to 2011, which was when the recent CBA installing the rookie wage scale was put in place.
RE: RE: You don't need a great quarterback to win a Super Bowl;  
Johnny5 : 5/4/2021 3:39 pm : link
In comment 15253510 NYGgolfer said:
Quote:
In comment 15253487 Angel Eyes said:


Quote:


he just has be good enough to guide the team there. In the last 20-25 years, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Nick Foles (split with Carson Wentz) were journeymen quarterbacks who managed to win Super Bowls, yet none of them were especially great or even particularly good. But they had great teams that were able to win.

Conversely; a great quarterback can't always overcome deficiencies in their team; in the last Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes had a leaky offensive line and was battered and hurried by the Tampa Bay defense all day.



While of course, this is true.

But do you think a better strategy is to just settle with a lesser QB than you would like and extend him a longer term contract because Brad Johnson was able to win a ring?

Actually I think Brad Johnson was better than Trent Dilfer! lol
RE: RE: RE: You don't need a great quarterback to win a Super Bowl;  
NYGgolfer : 5/4/2021 3:44 pm : link
In comment 15253545 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 15253510 NYGgolfer said:


Quote:


In comment 15253487 Angel Eyes said:


Quote:


he just has be good enough to guide the team there. In the last 20-25 years, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Nick Foles (split with Carson Wentz) were journeymen quarterbacks who managed to win Super Bowls, yet none of them were especially great or even particularly good. But they had great teams that were able to win.

Conversely; a great quarterback can't always overcome deficiencies in their team; in the last Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes had a leaky offensive line and was battered and hurried by the Tampa Bay defense all day.



While of course, this is true.

But do you think a better strategy is to just settle with a lesser QB than you would like and extend him a longer term contract because Brad Johnson was able to win a ring?


Actually I think Brad Johnson was better than Trent Dilfer! lol


As do I. Was just being judicious in making the point without going overboard.
RE: You don't need a great quarterback to win a Super Bowl;  
bw in dc : 5/4/2021 4:00 pm : link
In comment 15253487 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
he just has be good enough to guide the team there. In the last 20-25 years, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Nick Foles (split with Carson Wentz) were journeymen quarterbacks who managed to win Super Bowls, yet none of them were especially great or even particularly good. But they had great teams that were able to win.

Conversely; a great quarterback can't always overcome deficiencies in their team; in the last Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes had a leaky offensive line and was battered and hurried by the Tampa Bay defense all day.


It's rare a great QB doesn't win a SB. So why settle for mediocre (Dilfer) or good (Brad Johnson, Nick Foles, etc)?

It requires too many other very good place to be in place to make the good or mediocre QB work.
Ugh...  
bw in dc : 5/4/2021 4:01 pm : link
should be "parts" not "place"...
But again..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/4/2021 4:03 pm : link
what purpose do statements like this have and why do you continually post things of this nature??

Quote:
"Here's what we do know:

- Jones was perhaps the least productive college quarterback drafted in the first round in the past decade
- Jones has had a very low level of production in two years in the NFL

That's what we know, definitively."


Again with the "definitively" part. Jones set several team rookie QB records and yet it is continually portrayed by you that he's not produced much. And it isn't an isolated comment. It is made on numerous threads. I wouldn't consider 24TD's in 2019 to be a "very low level" of production, yet you continually portray that season as if Jones was really bad.
RE: RE: Terps  
Bill L : 5/4/2021 4:07 pm : link
In comment 15253519 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 15253477 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


you can't use a chart that runs counterpoint to the entire point or argument that you are trying to make.




God, the point is so obvious:

-Jones didn't have a very good collegiate career, certainly not elite
-Jones has not really had a very good NFL career so far either.
-Based on both of the above, there is reason for concern.

This isn't some "This chart here is a flaws predictor of which QBs are better than others!" thing.


I think that in both cases you're looking at Jones in a vacuum and rendering judgment (albeit, not Judge's judgment).
RE: RE: Terps  
bw in dc : 5/4/2021 4:10 pm : link
In comment 15253519 santacruzom said:
Quote:

God, the point is so obvious:

-Jones didn't have a very good collegiate career, certainly not elite
-Jones has not really had a very good NFL career so far either.
-Based on both of the above, there is reason for concern.

This isn't some "This chart here is a flaws predictor of which QBs are better than others!" thing.


I believe you are forgetting a very important predictor of NFL success - the Senior Bowl MVP. Which Jones was... ;)
I've already pointed it out  
Go Terps : 5/4/2021 4:12 pm : link
In Jones's rookie year he played 4 games where his passer rating was above league average. 8 where it was below league average. That doesn't capture the league leading 19 fumbles.

The team was 3-9 in his starts and struggled to score points.

Then the problems we saw in '19 further manifested themselves in '20, where his stats (including TD passes) were dreadful.

"But he threw 24 TD passes..." is pretty weak, no?
Jones  
darren in pdx : 5/4/2021 4:16 pm : link
was on a very, very poor Duke team. Lucky for him he was drafted onto an NFL team with very poor offensive talent and the only elite skill player injured both seasons. There has been a significant increase in skill position talent this season if they can stay healthy. He may feel less pressure to be the hero every play which can reduce turnovers. It's a team game and they have to feed off each other.

Either he succeeds this season or not, and I think believing if he will or will not have valid arguments attached but no one can say for sure how it'll play out yet. We'll have a good idea about a quarter-way into the season.
GT...  
bw in dc : 5/4/2021 4:18 pm : link
Is there another player in the NFL under more pressure than Jones this year? Maybe Stafford?

RE: Jones  
Bill L : 5/4/2021 4:28 pm : link
In comment 15253618 darren in pdx said:
Quote:
was on a very, very poor Duke team. Lucky for him he was drafted onto an NFL team with very poor offensive talent and the only elite skill player injured both seasons. There has been a significant increase in skill position talent this season if they can stay healthy. He may feel less pressure to be the hero every play which can reduce turnovers. It's a team game and they have to feed off each other.

Either he succeeds this season or not, and I think believing if he will or will not have valid arguments attached but no one can say for sure how it'll play out yet. We'll have a good idea about a quarter-way into the season.


This is true.

Almost every other QB he can be compared to played with at least someone who could help him. I would have said Darnold but he did have that at USC. I just wold like to see Jones play under optimal conditions like most other QB's get to do.
RE: RE: Jones  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/4/2021 4:44 pm : link
In comment 15253637 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15253618 darren in pdx said:


Quote:


was on a very, very poor Duke team. Lucky for him he was drafted onto an NFL team with very poor offensive talent and the only elite skill player injured both seasons. There has been a significant increase in skill position talent this season if they can stay healthy. He may feel less pressure to be the hero every play which can reduce turnovers. It's a team game and they have to feed off each other.

Either he succeeds this season or not, and I think believing if he will or will not have valid arguments attached but no one can say for sure how it'll play out yet. We'll have a good idea about a quarter-way into the season.



This is true.

Almost every other QB he can be compared to played with at least someone who could help him. I would have said Darnold but he did have that at USC. I just wold like to see Jones play under optimal conditions like most other QB's get to do.

You really think that MOST QBs get to play under optimal conditions?

Maybe that gets right to the crux of the issue.
RE: RE: RE: Jones  
Bill L : 5/4/2021 4:46 pm : link
In comment 15253673 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15253637 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 15253618 darren in pdx said:


Quote:


was on a very, very poor Duke team. Lucky for him he was drafted onto an NFL team with very poor offensive talent and the only elite skill player injured both seasons. There has been a significant increase in skill position talent this season if they can stay healthy. He may feel less pressure to be the hero every play which can reduce turnovers. It's a team game and they have to feed off each other.

Either he succeeds this season or not, and I think believing if he will or will not have valid arguments attached but no one can say for sure how it'll play out yet. We'll have a good idea about a quarter-way into the season.



This is true.

Almost every other QB he can be compared to played with at least someone who could help him. I would have said Darnold but he did have that at USC. I just wold like to see Jones play under optimal conditions like most other QB's get to do.


You really think that MOST QBs get to play under optimal conditions?

Maybe that gets right to the crux of the issue.


Let's say more so. I mean has he ever in his life had good protection and reliable receivers (college or pros)?
RE: GT...  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2021 4:50 pm : link
In comment 15253619 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Is there another player in the NFL under more pressure than Jones this year? Maybe Stafford?


Jones was under tremendous pressure last year. NYG QBs were pressured just about 30% of the time in 2020, which was second worst in the NFL only to MINN.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/4/2021 4:51 pm : link
In comment 15253679 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15253673 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15253637 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 15253618 darren in pdx said:


Quote:


was on a very, very poor Duke team. Lucky for him he was drafted onto an NFL team with very poor offensive talent and the only elite skill player injured both seasons. There has been a significant increase in skill position talent this season if they can stay healthy. He may feel less pressure to be the hero every play which can reduce turnovers. It's a team game and they have to feed off each other.

Either he succeeds this season or not, and I think believing if he will or will not have valid arguments attached but no one can say for sure how it'll play out yet. We'll have a good idea about a quarter-way into the season.



This is true.

Almost every other QB he can be compared to played with at least someone who could help him. I would have said Darnold but he did have that at USC. I just wold like to see Jones play under optimal conditions like most other QB's get to do.


You really think that MOST QBs get to play under optimal conditions?

Maybe that gets right to the crux of the issue.



Let's say more so. I mean has he ever in his life had good protection and reliable receivers (college or pros)?

I agree, this is the debate. He has never really had a great supporting cast, in college or with the Giants. So we're seeing a QB struggle, and we don't know if it's because he's not good or if it's because those around him are not good.

But we do know he hasn't succeeded in spite of his supporting cast, so that already carves the absolute top off of his ceiling.

Still, I'm not sure why you'd suggest that MOST quarterbacks get to operate under OPTIMAL conditions. The fact is that most don't get anything close to optimal. Most probably get better conditions than DJ has had, but then again, most also produce better than DJ has. So is he just a part? A cog in the wheel? Shouldn't the QB be the hub of the wheel and not just a cog?

We're going to find out a lot more about DJ's competence this season with far stronger weapons surrounding him. I hope he responds with a fantastic season and puts the debate to rest. But it's still an open question right now.
So then it begs the question  
Go Terps : 5/4/2021 4:52 pm : link
Why draft Jones at all? On spec that he'll be good once surrounded by good players?
I don't dispute it's an open question  
Bill L : 5/4/2021 4:54 pm : link
why is why I dispute anyone saying anything in absolutes.

And, to answer the questions after that, you probably have to also ask "who *could* succeed?" I doubt most rookie QB could.
Most QBs operate under better circumstances than DJ has?  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/4/2021 4:55 pm : link
I'd love for you elaborate on that because if "better circumstances" is a line that sucked for half a season, became middle of the road by the end, and had one of the worst supporting casts in football, I'd like to hear those circumstances.
Was Archie Maning a good QB? no SBs.  
Bill L : 5/4/2021 4:56 pm : link
Was David Carr good QB? No success. Personally, I think Jim McMahon sucked. And yet...
RE: I don't dispute it's an open question  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2021 5:00 pm : link
In comment 15253693 Bill L said:
Quote:
why is why I dispute anyone saying anything in absolutes.

And, to answer the questions after that, you probably have to also ask "who *could* succeed?" I doubt most rookie QB could.


Tend to agree. Wonder why they put him in such a difficult environment like that, and then again in year 2.
RE: RE: I don't dispute it's an open question  
Bill L : 5/4/2021 5:02 pm : link
In comment 15253702 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15253693 Bill L said:


Quote:


why is why I dispute anyone saying anything in absolutes.

And, to answer the questions after that, you probably have to also ask "who *could* succeed?" I doubt most rookie QB could.



Tend to agree. Wonder why they put him in such a difficult environment like that, and then again in year 2.


I would say that he was unfortunate enough to land on a turning aircraft carrier.
RE: I don't dispute it's an open question  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/4/2021 5:18 pm : link
In comment 15253693 Bill L said:
Quote:
why is why I dispute anyone saying anything in absolutes.

And, to answer the questions after that, you probably have to also ask "who *could* succeed?" I doubt most rookie QB could.

He wasn't a rookie last year, and he regressed. I'm not sure why "rookie QB" is your measuring stick, but I suppose it gives you a bit more leeway.

Actual rookies, who should have been just as challenged by the oddities of 2020, outplayed him on their respective teams. Back to the excuse game, I guess?
RE: RE: GT...  
bw in dc : 5/4/2021 5:38 pm : link
In comment 15253682 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15253619 bw in dc said:


Quote:


Is there another player in the NFL under more pressure than Jones this year? Maybe Stafford?




Jones was under tremendous pressure last year. NYG QBs were pressured just about 30% of the time in 2020, which was second worst in the NFL only to MINN.


I mean pressure to perform...
...  
christian : 5/4/2021 5:45 pm : link
I’m glad we’ve all collectively accepted management built a dreadful offense last year.

(It’s not lost on me some of the folks bemoaning the situation Jones was put in are some of the same folks who claimed the talent was fine last offseason, but water, bridges, etc.)

So now let’s try and apportion some percentages of blame as to why Jones and the offense sucked. What is the split between the skill positions, the line, the unorthodox offseason, the injuries, and his talent.

I’d say:

50% limits in Jones’s talent
15% offensive line
15% skill positions
10% weird offseason
10% injuries
RE: I've already pointed it out  
Gmen88 : 5/4/2021 6:35 pm : link
In comment 15253613 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In Jones's rookie year he played 4 games where his passer rating was above league average. 8 where it was below league average. That doesn't capture the league leading 19 fumbles.

The team was 3-9 in his starts and struggled to score points.

Then the problems we saw in '19 further manifested themselves in '20, where his stats (including TD passes) were dreadful.

"But he threw 24 TD passes..." is pretty weak, no?


You just described Peyton Manning's, Eli Manning's, and Matt Stafford's rookie seasons to name a few. The thing about QB's that are taken really early in the first round is, they typically go to bad teams. This is just cherry picking stats to support your argument. Are you rooting for Jones this year?
I for one expect Jones  
santacruzom : 5/4/2021 6:37 pm : link
to have a much better season this year than either of his previous two. I hope that the coaching staff is making the appropriate adjustments and am sure that Jones is working his ass off. The acquisitions and return of Barkley should help him out. Maybe even Engram will help out a lot now that his burden will be reduced.

However, I can't help but be concerned that he'll continue to turn the ball over, and that's not just a triviality.
RE: RE: I've already pointed it out  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/4/2021 6:38 pm : link
In comment 15253818 Gmen88 said:
Quote:
In comment 15253613 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In Jones's rookie year he played 4 games where his passer rating was above league average. 8 where it was below league average. That doesn't capture the league leading 19 fumbles.

The team was 3-9 in his starts and struggled to score points.

Then the problems we saw in '19 further manifested themselves in '20, where his stats (including TD passes) were dreadful.

"But he threw 24 TD passes..." is pretty weak, no?



You just described Peyton Manning's, Eli Manning's, and Matt Stafford's rookie seasons to name a few. The thing about QB's that are taken really early in the first round is, they typically go to bad teams. This is just cherry picking stats to support your argument. Are you rooting for Jones this year?

Which of those threw 11 TDs in their second year?
It comes down to this..  
Sean : 5/4/2021 6:40 pm : link
If you need to debate if a QB is “the guy”, he’s probably not the guy. The Giants are doing what smart teams typically do - stack the deck for the QB. It’s year 3, this is it. It’s time to lead the offense and win the NFC East.

The Giants know it too, they are hedging their bet with the 2022 draft capital. We’ll see. I’m all good giving Jones this year to perform as a high level QB. If he doesn’t, the Giants aren’t married to him and have plenty of assets.

It’s a good spot to be in.
RE: RE: RE: I don't dispute it's an open question  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2021 6:42 pm : link
In comment 15253706 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15253702 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15253693 Bill L said:


Quote:


why is why I dispute anyone saying anything in absolutes.

And, to answer the questions after that, you probably have to also ask "who *could* succeed?" I doubt most rookie QB could.



Tend to agree. Wonder why they put him in such a difficult environment like that, and then again in year 2.



I would say that he was unfortunate enough to land on a turning aircraft carrier.


Odd that I haven't supported Getts more often since he built such a sturdy ship for his franchise's "Top Gun" to land on over the years.

What a plan, what vision...
RE: RE: I've already pointed it out  
Go Terps : 5/4/2021 6:43 pm : link
In comment 15253818 Gmen88 said:
Quote:
Are you rooting for Jones this year?


I'm rooting for the Giants to win. I don't care who the quarterback is. Who and what any of us are rooting for is irrelevant, anyway.
RE: RE: RE: I've already pointed it out  
Gmen88 : 5/4/2021 6:45 pm : link
In comment 15253823 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15253818 Gmen88 said:


Quote:


In comment 15253613 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In Jones's rookie year he played 4 games where his passer rating was above league average. 8 where it was below league average. That doesn't capture the league leading 19 fumbles.

The team was 3-9 in his starts and struggled to score points.

Then the problems we saw in '19 further manifested themselves in '20, where his stats (including TD passes) were dreadful.

"But he threw 24 TD passes..." is pretty weak, no?



You just described Peyton Manning's, Eli Manning's, and Matt Stafford's rookie seasons to name a few. The thing about QB's that are taken really early in the first round is, they typically go to bad teams. This is just cherry picking stats to support your argument. Are you rooting for Jones this year?


Which of those threw 11 TDs in their second year?


Well bringing it back to the original thread topic, he was clearly significantly banged up. In addition to that, lost his best weapon, the offensive line played horribly and it was a completely new offense in a shortened off-season.

The jury is absolutely still out and it is impossible to definitively say whether he is a good qb or bad. However I think it is fair to say there have been flashes which is typically what you want to see from young QB's in bad situations. This year will be telling.
RE: RE: RE: GT...  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2021 6:45 pm : link
In comment 15253750 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15253682 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15253619 bw in dc said:


Quote:


Is there another player in the NFL under more pressure than Jones this year? Maybe Stafford?




Jones was under tremendous pressure last year. NYG QBs were pressured just about 30% of the time in 2020, which was second worst in the NFL only to MINN.



I mean pressure to perform...


I know. Just giving the balanced view that doesn't always come out clear in some of the other posters' rants...

:-)
RE: RE: RE: I've already pointed it out  
Gmen88 : 5/4/2021 7:01 pm : link
In comment 15253831 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15253818 Gmen88 said:


Quote:


Are you rooting for Jones this year?



I'm rooting for the Giants to win. I don't care who the quarterback is. Who and what any of us are rooting for is irrelevant, anyway.


Irrelevant to the team actually being successful, sure. However, rooting for the QB of said team would essentially be synonymous with rooting for the team. QB does well, team is more likely to do well. Seems you would rather be right than the Giants be successful.
RE: I for one expect Jones  
bw in dc : 5/4/2021 7:01 pm : link
In comment 15253820 santacruzom said:
Quote:
to have a much better season this year than either of his previous two. I hope that the coaching staff is making the appropriate adjustments and am sure that Jones is working his ass off. The acquisitions and return of Barkley should help him out. Maybe even Engram will help out a lot now that his burden will be reduced.

However, I can't help but be concerned that he'll continue to turn the ball over, and that's not just a triviality.


I'm still not sold on all of the constituent parts of this OL, but there is no dearth of skill players now who can score TDs if Jones can deliver the ball. If we don't score at least 24ppg with this group than Jones really is not the man.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I've already pointed it out  
Go Terps : 5/4/2021 7:08 pm : link
In comment 15253852 Gmen88 said:
Quote:
In comment 15253831 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15253818 Gmen88 said:


Quote:


Are you rooting for Jones this year?



I'm rooting for the Giants to win. I don't care who the quarterback is. Who and what any of us are rooting for is irrelevant, anyway.



Irrelevant to the team actually being successful, sure. However, rooting for the QB of said team would essentially be synonymous with rooting for the team. QB does well, team is more likely to do well. Seems you would rather be right than the Giants be successful.


Whatever makes you feel better. I could just as easily argue that rooting for Jones to keep the job is anathema to rooting for the Giants to win. It has been to this point.

I don't really care what anyone is rooting for.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I've already pointed it out  
Gmen88 : 5/4/2021 7:13 pm : link
In comment 15253861 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15253852 Gmen88 said:


Quote:


In comment 15253831 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15253818 Gmen88 said:


Quote:


Are you rooting for Jones this year?



I'm rooting for the Giants to win. I don't care who the quarterback is. Who and what any of us are rooting for is irrelevant, anyway.



Irrelevant to the team actually being successful, sure. However, rooting for the QB of said team would essentially be synonymous with rooting for the team. QB does well, team is more likely to do well. Seems you would rather be right than the Giants be successful.



Whatever makes you feel better. I could just as easily argue that rooting for Jones to keep the job is anathema to rooting for the Giants to win. It has been to this point.

I don't really care what anyone is rooting for.


You couldn't, because it is impossible to say one way or another. I don't know the answer, but we will see.
RE: RE: I'm tired of reading posters who want to get rid of Dan Jones.  
montanagiant : 5/4/2021 7:17 pm : link
In comment 15252198 BSIMatt said:
Quote:
In comment 15252182 TLong said:


Quote:


So many of BBI posters try to ignore the teams problems on
Offensive Line ( and it has been very "offensive") and on the receiving corps (ps silent).
Give the guy a chance to prove himself under normal conditions and with a decent OL and good receivers.

As for Joe Judge, I think he may make it. Time will tell.



Have a feeling a large number of those guys are the ones who never liked the pick in the first place and are still thinking about Josh Allen and what could have been. Subset of those guys could be those still mad at Gettleman choosing Barkley #2 overall, instead of choosing Eli’s successor. Might be wrong about that, but I’m guessing that’s where the some of that sentiment originates.

The funny aspect to this is that out of the top 3 QBs Allen was the least wanted QB from that year on this board.
It was Darnold, Rosen, then Allen
RE: RE: RE: I'm tired of reading posters who want to get rid of Dan Jones.  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/4/2021 7:46 pm : link
In comment 15253875 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 15252198 BSIMatt said:


Quote:


In comment 15252182 TLong said:


Quote:


So many of BBI posters try to ignore the teams problems on
Offensive Line ( and it has been very "offensive") and on the receiving corps (ps silent).
Give the guy a chance to prove himself under normal conditions and with a decent OL and good receivers.

As for Joe Judge, I think he may make it. Time will tell.



Have a feeling a large number of those guys are the ones who never liked the pick in the first place and are still thinking about Josh Allen and what could have been. Subset of those guys could be those still mad at Gettleman choosing Barkley #2 overall, instead of choosing Eli’s successor. Might be wrong about that, but I’m guessing that’s where the some of that sentiment originates.


The funny aspect to this is that out of the top 3 QBs Allen was the least wanted QB from that year on this board.
It was Darnold, Rosen, then Allen

In fairness, we're not crowdsourcing our draft picks. We do expect that our front office has much more information and a slight better idea than we do.

And they passed on Allen. So that's not really a knock on the board, and it's kind of a knock on the front office. I know that wasn't your intent, but I don't think any of us is under the impression that they're choosing their draft picks based on BBI noise.
...  
christian : 5/4/2021 8:54 pm : link
And let’s not forget that Gettleman’s protégés expended considerable resources to get Allen.

Quote:
The Buffalo Bills traded No. 1 wide receiver Sammy Watkins, starting left tackle Cordy Glenn and six draft picks to move into position to select quarterback Josh Allen out of Wyoming with the seventh overall pick of the 2018 NFL draft.


The Bills are the example of how a re-build gets done.
RE: ...  
Scooter185 : 5/4/2021 9:43 pm : link
In comment 15254014 christian said:
Quote:
And let’s not forget that Gettleman’s protégés expended considerable resources to get Allen.



Quote:


The Buffalo Bills traded No. 1 wide receiver Sammy Watkins, starting left tackle Cordy Glenn and six draft picks to move into position to select quarterback Josh Allen out of Wyoming with the seventh overall pick of the 2018 NFL draft.



The Bills are the example of how a re-build gets done.


He was on KJZ late last week, and made the comment that he had build up the oline first (before getting Diggs) because without Allen upright it didn't matter what weapons he had to throw to
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm tired of reading posters who want to get rid of Dan Jones.  
montanagiant : 5/4/2021 10:28 pm : link
In comment 15253929 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15253875 montanagiant said:


Quote:


In comment 15252198 BSIMatt said:


Quote:


In comment 15252182 TLong said:


Quote:


So many of BBI posters try to ignore the teams problems on
Offensive Line ( and it has been very "offensive") and on the receiving corps (ps silent).
Give the guy a chance to prove himself under normal conditions and with a decent OL and good receivers.

As for Joe Judge, I think he may make it. Time will tell.



Have a feeling a large number of those guys are the ones who never liked the pick in the first place and are still thinking about Josh Allen and what could have been. Subset of those guys could be those still mad at Gettleman choosing Barkley #2 overall, instead of choosing Eli’s successor. Might be wrong about that, but I’m guessing that’s where the some of that sentiment originates.


The funny aspect to this is that out of the top 3 QBs Allen was the least wanted QB from that year on this board.
It was Darnold, Rosen, then Allen


In fairness, we're not crowdsourcing our draft picks. We do expect that our front office has much more information and a slight better idea than we do.

And they passed on Allen. So that's not really a knock on the board, and it's kind of a knock on the front office. I know that wasn't your intent, but I don't think any of us is under the impression that they're choosing their draft picks based on BBI noise.

I agree, but I do think it illustrates some of the Monday morning QBing that we see on BBI
Certainly it does, but not unexpected. It’s up to Giant FO  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2021 10:39 pm : link
to get it right, not just ensure they don’t get it wrong. #2 overall pick with basically the world as their oyster, in a loaded draft no less.

At least they are getting better at this now...

...  
christian : 5/4/2021 11:15 pm : link
Fans guess at outcomes, our batting average doesn’t matter.

Professional managers get paid, and more importantly are responsible for other’s careers.

I want what Buffalo is having.
So do the 30 other teams not named KC  
BSIMatt : 5/4/2021 11:49 pm : link
Good luck with that. A talent like Allen is extraordinarily rare.
Jones is not Josh Allen, but I'll be delighted if he figures out  
GeofromNJ : 5/5/2021 12:27 am : link
how to prevent the opposition from knocking the ball out of his hands. As an aside, if Jones had a severe hamstring that would have felled lesser men, Judge should have played Colt McCoy. Maybe the Giants finish 8-8 and win the division.
RE: RE: RE: I take it back - you didn't START the thread  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 9:05 am : link
In comment 15253297 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15253272 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 15253256 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


but you sure did miller the heck out of it defending your position on enjoying pregame shows.

There's a ton of now-outdated posts on that thread (including a lot of salary cap arguments that I made that are not especially valid anymore since the Giants have changed their cap approach - although they were definitely valid that offseason), but what is clear as day is how refreshed you were about a pregame show.

Maybe if you didn't try to apply the same thoughtless cookie-cutter approach to defending the Giants and actually offered some genuine critical thinking, people would take you more seriously. But for whatever reason, you seem unwilling to do that.
Link - ( New Window )



Are you high right now?

There is literally one post by me on that thread about the pre-game show. I said I enjoyed watching Barkley break down film more than I liked OBJ's sitdown with little wayne.

And what does this have to do with anything?


They are attacking you instead of your argument it should be obvious why.


No, it's not obvious as to why. Who have I attacked personally? Do I argue about the football stuff a lot? Yeah, but very rarely do I get personal with anybody.

Now we're at the point of making up shit to attack me with.
If those same five posters have the right to take their echo chamber  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 9:31 am : link
on to every thread no matter the subject, then I have the right to counterpoint it until my patience runs out. If that frustrates people, too bad. They should look in the mirror and see how their behavior/posting pattern frustrates others.

I agree we are all Giants fans, and people can root for whatever they want as they wish, but this feels a lot more like right vs. wrong to me than sharing a common goal.
At the end of the day, I don't give a shit who the QB, Coach, or GM is  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 9:37 am : link
if the Giants are winning.

People accuse me of being overly loyal or a fan boy of any of the above, but I'm not. That should be apparent with how happy I was with the Jones pick. Now I want him to win.

I root for whoever is running the show and wearing the uniform, because their success means the Giants have success. It's not fun for me to root for failure. Sorry.
So much concern over what others are rooting for  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 10:18 am : link
Nothing could matter less, unless you're looking for discussions that don't go any deeper than "that's my quarterback".

Britt you mentioned above your criteria for which posters to listen to and which to ignore. We all have criteria for that. Personally, I don't pay much mind to people who bend or overlook reality to make the Giants look better than they are.

"Why not us?" discussions that warp reality and apply different standards to the Giants than other teams make us all dumber. Understanding what is actually happening, and parsing out truth from bullshit...to me that's a better shared common goal than "Gee aren't the Giants awesome?"
Is anybody actually saying that Jones is THE guy?  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 11:09 am : link
Is anybody else actually saying the Giants "are awesome" right now?

Are you reading that anywhere? Because I know I haven't said either of those things in the past three years.
Seems to me there is only one side of this argument...  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 11:10 am : link
that is making definitive statements of what can be or cannot be.
I do not think the Giants are awesome  
UConn4523 : 5/5/2021 11:14 am : link
I also think there's plenty of deserved criticism. I just don't talk about it much because its been said already many lifetimes over at this point.

I like to look forward, that's how I operate as a fan. I think Jones needs to step up regardless of our offseason acquisitions, but in the same breath I can also say that he isn't elite so getting him help is a requirement. I also believe that getting him help isn't just a 2021 initiative, we needed more weapons anyway even if we replace Jones after 2021.

I don't see much value in taking hard stance either way - its a game of inches and nuance, no reason I can't view it that was as well as a spectator.
Did I not agree with you that I think it would be interesting...  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 11:14 am : link
for the Giants to take a QB at 11 this year? Did I not say this is Jones' prove it or else year?

Did I not say that if Gettleman's roster doesn't produce this year he should be fired?

Seems to me you've distorted what my view is. I don't think Daniel Jones and the Giants are awesome, yay. That's the picture you're painting and it's not accurate at all.
RE: Is anybody actually saying that Jones is THE guy?  
Thegratefulhead : 5/5/2021 11:15 am : link
In comment 15254528 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Is anybody else actually saying the Giants "are awesome" right now?

Are you reading that anywhere? Because I know I haven't said either of those things in the past three years.
Nope. typical BBI strawman nonsense. The motivation for the whining about this is obvious. If Daniel Jones has a very good year they look stupid. I have heard stuff as stupid as:

The Giants are doing everything in their power to make Daniel Jones look good to justify the pick.

That is bottom of the barrel stupid shit right there.

Can anyone point me to the team that says, "Fuck our QB, let's get him bad players so we have to draft another QB"

FFS
This is just like what happened earlier in this thread....  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 11:16 am : link
when Gatorade Dunk painted a picture of me being a pre-game loving show, and more excited about pre-games than games. Then he doubled down and said I started a thread on it, proceeded to dig it up, and then for some reason post it even though it proved that everything he had written about me was complete fiction, as I didn't start the thread and only had one post about a pre-game show that was a throwaway line.

Stop making shit up.
RE: Seems to me there is only one side of this argument...  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 11:18 am : link
In comment 15254530 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
that is making definitive statements of what can be or cannot be.


That's because the Giants have been bad, and Jones has been poor. Can't make a definitive statement to the contrary. What has been offered instead is a lot of excuses and odd comparisons to other situations that don't apply (Eli, Simms, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, and a million other quarterbacks).

I don't know about right and wrong, but there is a reality. The reality is this season appears to be Jones's last chance.

Players that play well don't find themselves in last chance situations to prove themselves.
RE: …  
djm : 5/5/2021 11:20 am : link
In comment 15252285 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
“This isn’t Simms”?????

Do you remember watching Simms play his first I don’t know…7 seasons?


People have convenient and downright weird memories around here. Par for the course.

Oh wait, it was a different era so it doesn't count.
The record and the results speak for themselves.  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 11:21 am : link
The difference between my argument and yours in a nutshell:

Me: Daniel Jones has shown ability in spots and with better help around him hopefully he can elevate his game and prove he can be our guy going forward.

You: Daniel Jones will never be anything more that a career backup in this league and nothing that can happen changes that. (You have actually said this).

Also you: Dave Gettleman and the Giants could go 18-0 next year, win the Superbowl, and he will still have been proven to have done a bad job (you actually also said this).

You don't realize how CRAZY that sounds?
RE: RE: Seems to me there is only one side of this argument...  
Bill L : 5/5/2021 11:22 am : link
In comment 15254549 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15254530 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


that is making definitive statements of what can be or cannot be.



That's because the Giants have been bad, and Jones has been poor. Can't make a definitive statement to the contrary. What has been offered instead is a lot of excuses and odd comparisons to other situations that don't apply (Eli, Simms, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, and a million other quarterbacks).

I don't know about right and wrong, but there is a reality. The reality is this season appears to be Jones's last chance.

Players that play well don't find themselves in last chance situations to prove themselves.

Don't forget Justin Herbert in the list of comparisons made.
RE: RE: ...  
djm : 5/5/2021 11:23 am : link
In comment 15252291 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15252279 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


I think GT wants Jones to succeed, but doesn't think he will. That's a fair take that I don't necessarily disagree with. I think this fall is make or break for Jones.

That said, I had to laugh when GT said he would have drafted Herbert last year @ 4 after DJ's rookie season. That was LOL to me. And again, I respect GT opinions but I thought he was trolling @ that point.



Seriously? If given a mulligan you wouldn't draft Herbert? The Giants would - I'd bet a lot on that.


Dude, what the fuck does this have to do with anything? That draft was one year after Jones. Stop already with this horse shit. You gonna try and put the toothpaste back in the tube on every fucking post? Are you kidding me with this childish take?
I did not say that  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 11:24 am : link
I said they could go undefeated and still be under .500 for these four years.

If you're going to quote someone, get it right. That kind of thing happens way too often, and bullshit gets propagated as reality.
Tom Brady just said he'd trade two Superbowls for a perfect season  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 11:24 am : link
but Dave Gettleman's roster could go 18-0 and he's still a piece of shit.
Forget the Superbowl comment then, as polarizing as it is.  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 11:26 am : link
You don't see the difference between your take and my take above on Daniel Jones?

Which one is the more definitive statement?
Very bullish on 2021  
Thegratefulhead : 5/5/2021 11:30 am : link
The D is going to very good. Very good. We added legit pass rusherS AND man to man guys. We will blitz more. More sacks, more turnovers.

That is going to help the offense, which also got much better. I know Daniel can make the throws. Did Daniel Jones' receivers get open at Duke?...No

How much separation did his receivers get last year?

Does that make decision making easy?

See where I am going?

The great Daniel Jones flaw in the now infamous Sy56' scouting report on Daniel Jones.

Decision making

People are going to say, "The light bulb went off for Daniel Jones in 2021 like it did with Josh Allen in 2020"

No, they got Allen, Diggs, and they got Jones actual targets.

I am not saying he is going to be great but it will be transformative. I predict 30+TDs and AY/A to be better than average.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'd be interested in seeing posts about Eli  
djm : 5/5/2021 11:30 am : link
In comment 15253129 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15253123 Dr. D said:


Quote:


In comment 15253000 Scooter185 said:


Quote:


In comment 15252963 Dr. D said:


Quote:


In comment 15252951 Bear vs Shark said:


Quote:



They weren't great. As late as late-07, people were still not bought in on Eli. The old meme was "Eli will be fine".


That's my point. The young QB developed and patience was rewarded, right?

And keep in mind, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast in his first 2-3 years than D. Jones had last yr. It's not even close. Now in '21, Jones finally has a supporting cast that's comparable.



But the NFL as a whole isn't going to be giving QBs that time to develop anymore, which is why these comparisons to Eli and Simms are silly. It's not a NYG thing, it's an NFL thing. Between rookie contracts/options and the confluence of the college and pro games, teams need their first round QB picks to be "the guy" by year three.

Unless changes are made to the CBA, what we saw with the Jets and Darnold is going to become the norm for teams that don't have "the guy"


I acknowledged that it's a different era, but considering the circumstances (e.g., Kevin Gilbride saying '21 "should be considered his 2nd year"), can we give him THIS FUCKING YEAR?

The Jets gave Darnold a 3rd year to prove himself! He failed and the Jets are moving on. That's all anyone's asking for. Jones 3rd year to prove himself.

Darnold hadn't even performed as well as Jones has his first 2 years (avg QBR low 40s vs. nearly 60). And though Darnold did have to deal with a new coach and offense, it wasn't during the fucking pandemic, preventing OTAs, preseason, etc.



So then isn't Darnold a cautionary tale not to give a guy the third year?

An entire season seems a steep price to conduct an experiment on one player hoping he gives you a result he's never displayed on the field.

The Giants are chasing a myth in 2021 with Jones.


Never displayed on the field?

Fucking stop dude.

Worst. Thread. Ever. Bravo.

I didn't know that Jones has never played well. Ever. NEVER.

Fucking trash.
Again, you've put words in my mouth  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 11:32 am : link
I haven't said "nothing that can happen can change this". Why make shit up?

I've said Jones isn't a good starting NFL quarterback. I've laid out numerous reasons for it: stats, scouting reports, video clips. The evidence that he isn't very good is plentiful and easy to find, because he hasn't been. It's not impossible that he'll be good; there's just no reason to believe he will based on what we've seen and what he's done in five years of high level football. The next time he plays really good football for a full season will be the first.

That's definitive, because it's a fact. I didn't have to make that up or put words in someone else's mouth.
the year 3 thing makes sense anyway  
UConn4523 : 5/5/2021 11:33 am : link
if I were a Jets fan 3 years of Darnold makes sense. It makes sense as a Giants fan with Jones. It made sense with Josh Allen (his year 2 was a better trend but still plenty of flaws).

The only other recent examples were Haskins and Rosen and much of that had to do with work ethic, attitude, and coach-ability. If Jones was drafted by Washington i'm willing to bet he'd still be their guy right now. Arizona is a bit of a wildcard given the Kingsbury/Murray connection.
RE: RE: Is anybody actually saying that Jones is THE guy?  
NYGgolfer : 5/5/2021 11:33 am : link
In comment 15254542 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15254528 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


Is anybody else actually saying the Giants "are awesome" right now?

Are you reading that anywhere? Because I know I haven't said either of those things in the past three years.

Nope. typical BBI strawman nonsense. The motivation for the whining about this is obvious. If Daniel Jones has a very good year they look stupid. I have heard stuff as stupid as:

The Giants are doing everything in their power to make Daniel Jones look good to justify the pick.

That is bottom of the barrel stupid shit right there.

Can anyone point me to the team that says, "Fuck our QB, let's get him bad players so we have to draft another QB"

FFS


Extremism at its finest.

Strawman comments go both ways with posters. And how long do you think it would take to find bottom of the barrel stupid comments going the other direction?

Site is to talk Giants and lets fans debate. You aren't going to like what everybody posts so run your own self-filter as needed.
For the nit pickers that will ask  
Thegratefulhead : 5/5/2021 11:35 am : link
30 TDs rushing + passing combined.
RE: I did not say that  
Bill L : 5/5/2021 11:37 am : link
In comment 15254561 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I said they could go undefeated and still be under .500 for these four years.

If you're going to quote someone, get it right. That kind of thing happens way too often, and bullshit gets propagated as reality.


You have to admit, that would still be a Mrs. Lincoln kind of perspective.
ill say it again  
djm : 5/5/2021 11:38 am : link
I don't care if Jones throws 100 picks and no TDs in 2021. Barely cracks 3000 yards passing and kills any chance at a Giants win week in week out. I don't give a fuck how badly Jones might play in 2021. If things end up where you "called it" because inevitably Jones shits the bed, you got fucking lucky. You aren't some all knowing QB talent evaluator or NYG fan know all. You got lucky. It's very easy to label any young QB a bust. Wow some limb you went out on there. Most QBs end up average not good enough.

We have seen so many QBs progress over a longer timeline than 2 years, there's too many to count. Qbs that literally went from bad to heroic legends over a 12 month span. Guys that sucked for 2-3 years then turn out to be good or great. Too many to count. So save me the BS.

You don't know what Jones is or isn't capable of no matter how many times you torpedo a thread with this shit. You might be right. Odds are you WILL be right, but that doesn't mean you know fuck all about Jones or any other young QB in this league. And to sit here proclaiming anything so soon is just ridiculous. It's one thing to have concern or even go on record, but this is just pathetic.

RE: RE: RE: Is anybody actually saying that Jones is THE guy?  
Thegratefulhead : 5/5/2021 11:38 am : link
In comment 15254584 NYGgolfer said:
Quote:
In comment 15254542 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 15254528 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


Is anybody else actually saying the Giants "are awesome" right now?

Are you reading that anywhere? Because I know I haven't said either of those things in the past three years.

Nope. typical BBI strawman nonsense. The motivation for the whining about this is obvious. If Daniel Jones has a very good year they look stupid. I have heard stuff as stupid as:

The Giants are doing everything in their power to make Daniel Jones look good to justify the pick.

That is bottom of the barrel stupid shit right there.

Can anyone point me to the team that says, "Fuck our QB, let's get him bad players so we have to draft another QB"

FFS



Extremism at its finest.

Strawman comments go both ways with posters. And how long do you think it would take to find bottom of the barrel stupid comments going the other direction?

Site is to talk Giants and lets fans debate. You aren't going to like what everybody posts so run your own self-filter as needed.
Fair. There is plenty of Strawman both ways. That is very true. I participate in discussions. I am not part of a tribe here. I both agree and disagree and with people in both tribes based on what they are saying in a specific thread.
RE: RE: I did not say that  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 11:42 am : link
In comment 15254598 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15254561 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I said they could go undefeated and still be under .500 for these four years.

If you're going to quote someone, get it right. That kind of thing happens way too often, and bullshit gets propagated as reality.



You have to admit, that would still be a Mrs. Lincoln kind of perspective.


I didn't say that to say I'd complain about an undefeated season. The point was that the three years have been so bad that an undefeated season wouldn't even get us back to .500. Didn't think that needed explaining.
Jones apologist...  
trueblueinpw : 5/5/2021 11:42 am : link
I know we’ve all been over this, at least a thousand times. But the one argument that still irks me is the idea that Jones just needs more talent around him. This excuse, which he carries all the way through his professional *and* college career is to me the least convincing.

Would Jones be better with All Pro players at every position? Well, yeah, but is there a player in the NFL who wouldn’t? Has the talent with Jones been great? Well, we know that someone like Tate is long in the tooth and past his prime, sure, but he had a legit NFL career. Is Slayton an all world player? No, but he’s in the NFL. Our line hasn’t been good but even there, we do have AT, a top ten pick, Hernandez a top 2nd round pick. There’s talent on the offense, Barks the number 2, EE a first round pick, Shep, and on and on. Some of you act like Jones is out there playing with a bunch of guys from the neighborhood bar’s flag football league. He’s in the NFL and the guys he’s playing with are all among the very best football players in the country.

For the old timers, remember when we used to talk about LT in his first couple of years and how all he needed was a better defensive line and a better defensive backfield and full off season to get ready and he needed a few good linebackers to play with? Yeah, me neither. Great players make the players around them great. It’s not the other way around.

Now if Jones were taken in the third round we’d all be a lot more forgiving of his heretofore lack of greatness. But Jones was the 6th overall pick - there shouldn’t be a debate at this point with the sixth overall pick. Enough about the talent around him, it’s time for this guy to be the person on the Giants who is making the players around him better. It’s time to start winning some football games.
RE: If those same five posters have the right to take their echo chamber  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2021 11:42 am : link
In comment 15254354 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
on to every thread no matter the subject, then I have the right to counterpoint it until my patience runs out. If that frustrates people, too bad. They should look in the mirror and see how their behavior/posting pattern frustrates others.



Same 5 posters? Echo chamber? Personal attacks?

You have got to be kidding. Look at this very thread and how easily I can flip those sad songs of yours around 180 degrees as to what occurs.

Counterpoint all you want. That's actually the behavior your seeing from everybody you may be losing patience with...
And I fucking hate it  
djm : 5/5/2021 11:43 am : link
when people make shit up to prove something. Jones has never played well in the NFL? Never? He never threw four-five TD passes in a game? That win against Philly didn't happen last year? He didn't deliver a perfect dime to Engram in the first Philly game and play well enough that day? He didn't play well against Dallas week 17 in 21?

Fucking childish. That's what children do. You should be banned from a thread after doing this.
RE: And I fucking hate it  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 11:45 am : link
In comment 15254616 djm said:
Quote:
when people make shit up to prove something. Jones has never played well in the NFL? Never? He never threw four-five TD passes in a game? That win against Philly didn't happen last year? He didn't deliver a perfect dime to Engram in the first Philly game and play well enough that day? He didn't play well against Dallas week 17 in 21?

Fucking childish. That's what children do. You should be banned from a thread after doing this.


Reading comprehension.

Jones has never played a good full season of football in five years of college and pros.
Daniel Jones...  
Brown_Hornet : 5/5/2021 11:47 am : link
...has never rescued a baby from a burning building.
RE: RE: And I fucking hate it  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/5/2021 11:48 am : link
In comment 15254619 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15254616 djm said:


Quote:


when people make shit up to prove something. Jones has never played well in the NFL? Never? He never threw four-five TD passes in a game? That win against Philly didn't happen last year? He didn't deliver a perfect dime to Engram in the first Philly game and play well enough that day? He didn't play well against Dallas week 17 in 21?

Fucking childish. That's what children do. You should be banned from a thread after doing this.



Reading comprehension.

Jones has never played a good full season of football in five years of college and pros.


Jones had a pretty good last season at Duke. 22 TD's and 9 INT's with 350 yards rushing and 3 TD's.

But even then, players on bad teams are going to have that kind of perception. You could say the exact same thing about Josh Allen prior to last year.

Surprisingly, you didn't.
RE: Is anybody actually saying that Jones is THE guy?  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2021 11:48 am : link
In comment 15254528 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Is anybody else actually saying the Giants "are awesome" right now?

Are you reading that anywhere? Because I know I haven't said either of those things in the past three years.


As we speak, some guy named Grizz is touting the roster is so strong and deep right now that we will be cutting nice players at LB, WR and CB; and is putting the Giants into a deep playoff run.

I think that sounds pretty "awesome"!
RE: Again, you've put words in my mouth  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/5/2021 11:52 am : link
In comment 15254579 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I haven't said "nothing that can happen can change this". Why make shit up?

I've said Jones isn't a good starting NFL quarterback. I've laid out numerous reasons for it: stats, scouting reports, video clips. The evidence that he isn't very good is plentiful and easy to find, because he hasn't been. It's not impossible that he'll be good; there's just no reason to believe he will based on what we've seen and what he's done in five years of high level football. The next time he plays really good football for a full season will be the first.

That's definitive, because it's a fact. I didn't have to make that up or put words in someone else's mouth.

It's funny when Britt latches onto a single sentence.

If you try to do the same thing to him, he accuses you of being high.
2020 Outlier  
Thegratefulhead : 5/5/2021 11:53 am : link
Even if we have another pandemic it will handled much better. I completely throw out 2020 for my Jones evaluation. What happened in 2020 was out this world. My take on Jones is based on growth over 2019. If you want to hold him to the fire for 2020. Have at it.

Every team had to deal with Covid is too simple. Find an actual person that played QB in the NFL and ask them how easy it is for a second year QB to deal with a completely new offense and coach.

We know the answer right?

Then ask, take away his starting RB in week 2, and throw in an almost entirely new OL.

Harder.

OK, now ask that QB about doing THAT during covid with less practice than ever and remote learning that you had never experienced before.

Maybe DJ bombs, but stop the insanity, let this year play out and for heaven's sake get in the kid's corner for a minute or two.



RE: 2020 Outlier  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/5/2021 11:55 am : link
In comment 15254635 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
Even if we have another pandemic it will handled much better. I completely throw out 2020 for my Jones evaluation. What happened in 2020 was out this world. My take on Jones is based on growth over 2019. If you want to hold him to the fire for 2020. Have at it.

Every team had to deal with Covid is too simple. Find an actual person that played QB in the NFL and ask them how easy it is for a second year QB to deal with a completely new offense and coach.

We know the answer right?

Then ask, take away his starting RB in week 2, and throw in an almost entirely new OL.

Harder.

OK, now ask that QB about doing THAT during covid with less practice than ever and remote learning that you had never experienced before.

Maybe DJ bombs, but stop the insanity, let this year play out and for heaven's sake get in the kid's corner for a minute or two.



I've said this before and I'll keep saying it: we can reasonably deduce that EITHER 2020 OR 2019 is going to ultimately be viewed as an outlier for DJ.

We just don't know which yet.
RE: And I fucking hate it  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2021 11:55 am : link
In comment 15254616 djm said:
Quote:
when people make shit up to prove something. Jones has never played well in the NFL? Never? He never threw four-five TD passes in a game? That win against Philly didn't happen last year? He didn't deliver a perfect dime to Engram in the first Philly game and play well enough that day? He didn't play well against Dallas week 17 in 21?

Fucking childish. That's what children do. You should be banned from a thread after doing this.


You're the only one throwing a tantrum djm...
RE: RE: 2020 Outlier  
Thegratefulhead : 5/5/2021 11:58 am : link
In comment 15254638 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15254635 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


Even if we have another pandemic it will handled much better. I completely throw out 2020 for my Jones evaluation. What happened in 2020 was out this world. My take on Jones is based on growth over 2019. If you want to hold him to the fire for 2020. Have at it.

Every team had to deal with Covid is too simple. Find an actual person that played QB in the NFL and ask them how easy it is for a second year QB to deal with a completely new offense and coach.

We know the answer right?

Then ask, take away his starting RB in week 2, and throw in an almost entirely new OL.

Harder.

OK, now ask that QB about doing THAT during covid with less practice than ever and remote learning that you had never experienced before.

Maybe DJ bombs, but stop the insanity, let this year play out and for heaven's sake get in the kid's corner for a minute or two.





I've said this before and I'll keep saying it: we can reasonably deduce that EITHER 2020 OR 2019 is going to ultimately be viewed as an outlier for DJ.

We just don't know which yet.
One season had a pandemic, it is no stretch to point out which is the more likely outlier.
RE: Jones apologist...  
bw in dc : 5/5/2021 12:01 pm : link
In comment 15254614 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
I know we’ve all been over this, at least a thousand times. But the one argument that still irks me is the idea that Jones just needs more talent around him. This excuse, which he carries all the way through his professional *and* college career is to me the least convincing.

Would Jones be better with All Pro players at every position? Well, yeah, but is there a player in the NFL who wouldn’t? Has the talent with Jones been great? Well, we know that someone like Tate is long in the tooth and past his prime, sure, but he had a legit NFL career. Is Slayton an all world player? No, but he’s in the NFL. Our line hasn’t been good but even there, we do have AT, a top ten pick, Hernandez a top 2nd round pick. There’s talent on the offense, Barks the number 2, EE a first round pick, Shep, and on and on. Some of you act like Jones is out there playing with a bunch of guys from the neighborhood bar’s flag football league. He’s in the NFL and the guys he’s playing with are all among the very best football players in the country.

For the old timers, remember when we used to talk about LT in his first couple of years and how all he needed was a better defensive line and a better defensive backfield and full off season to get ready and he needed a few good linebackers to play with? Yeah, me neither. Great players make the players around them great. It’s not the other way around.

Now if Jones were taken in the third round we’d all be a lot more forgiving of his heretofore lack of greatness. But Jones was the 6th overall pick - there shouldn’t be a debate at this point with the sixth overall pick. Enough about the talent around him, it’s time for this guy to be the person on the Giants who is making the players around him better. It’s time to start winning some football games.


Good write-up. I've been over a lot of that real estate myself.

It goes back to this - expectations. There is a loud, large faction on this board who don't think Jones should be a difference maker. He's just one piece of the puzzle and he's the one who needs to be dependent on others, not the other way around. For them, it doesn't matter if Jones was drafted #6 or in the 6th round. He's just 1/11th of the offense...
RE: Jones apologist...  
The Mike : 5/5/2021 12:03 pm : link
In comment 15254614 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
I know we’ve all been over this, at least a thousand times. But the one argument that still irks me is the idea that Jones just needs more talent around him. This excuse, which he carries all the way through his professional *and* college career is to me the least convincing.

Would Jones be better with All Pro players at every position? Well, yeah, but is there a player in the NFL who wouldn’t? Has the talent with Jones been great? Well, we know that someone like Tate is long in the tooth and past his prime, sure, but he had a legit NFL career. Is Slayton an all world player? No, but he’s in the NFL. Our line hasn’t been good but even there, we do have AT, a top ten pick, Hernandez a top 2nd round pick. There’s talent on the offense, Barks the number 2, EE a first round pick, Shep, and on and on. Some of you act like Jones is out there playing with a bunch of guys from the neighborhood bar’s flag football league. He’s in the NFL and the guys he’s playing with are all among the very best football players in the country.

For the old timers, remember when we used to talk about LT in his first couple of years and how all he needed was a better defensive line and a better defensive backfield and full off season to get ready and he needed a few good linebackers to play with? Yeah, me neither. Great players make the players around them great. It’s not the other way around.

Now if Jones were taken in the third round we’d all be a lot more forgiving of his heretofore lack of greatness. But Jones was the 6th overall pick - there shouldn’t be a debate at this point with the sixth overall pick. Enough about the talent around him, it’s time for this guy to be the person on the Giants who is making the players around him better. It’s time to start winning some football games.


Great post. This is the point. Top ten drafted players lift the team around them, not vice versa. The issue here is that many of us hated the pick to begin with and the constant drumbeat that "we have to wait before we can have a learned opinion on the matter" is insufferable. I knew Shurmur was a bad hire eight seconds into his first press conference. And then I had to suffer thru two years of listening to his moronic points of view and the fans who defended him.

For many of us, we are now less than a year and counting from now until the end of the Daniel Jones era. Or so we hope. The reason for the debate is not whether he will be good or not. If he leads us to the playoffs this year it will be a dream come true and I will be the first to support him in getting extended. The debate is whether the Giants will continue to support him if he doesn't lead us to the playoffs and extend him based on some non-performance criteria like the kid's great character or the progress that he has made. And the excuse that I can see coming now is blaming the OL.

If the Giants don't make the playoffs, Gettleman should be fired and the Daniel Jones era should be over.

RE: 2020 Outlier  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2021 12:03 pm : link
In comment 15254635 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
Even if we have another pandemic it will handled much better. I completely throw out 2020 for my Jones evaluation. What happened in 2020 was out this world. My take on Jones is based on growth over 2019. If you want to hold him to the fire for 2020. Have at it.

Every team had to deal with Covid is too simple. Find an actual person that played QB in the NFL and ask them how easy it is for a second year QB to deal with a completely new offense and coach.

We know the answer right?

Then ask, take away his starting RB in week 2, and throw in an almost entirely new OL.

Harder.

OK, now ask that QB about doing THAT during covid with less practice than ever and remote learning that you had never experienced before.

Maybe DJ bombs, but stop the insanity, let this year play out and for heaven's sake get in the kid's corner for a minute or two.




Some posters can separate rooting for the Giants to win and having cold hard opinions on players/coaches/GMs. Some cannot.

It's not insanity to do either.
RE: RE: Again, you've put words in my mouth  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 12:06 pm : link
In comment 15254633 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15254579 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I haven't said "nothing that can happen can change this". Why make shit up?

I've said Jones isn't a good starting NFL quarterback. I've laid out numerous reasons for it: stats, scouting reports, video clips. The evidence that he isn't very good is plentiful and easy to find, because he hasn't been. It's not impossible that he'll be good; there's just no reason to believe he will based on what we've seen and what he's done in five years of high level football. The next time he plays really good football for a full season will be the first.

That's definitive, because it's a fact. I didn't have to make that up or put words in someone else's mouth.


It's funny when Britt latches onto a single sentence.

If you try to do the same thing to him, he accuses you of being high.


You were fucking high if you think any of your posts about me on this thread were actually true after you dug up the thread in question. They’re all above for anybody to read.
well its also time to get over him being the 6th pick  
UConn4523 : 5/5/2021 12:06 pm : link
he was selected where he was and that should no longer matter when it comes to how we build the team. Whether he should be elevating lesser players or not couldn't be more irrelevant now. The team needed an upgrade and its reasonable to assume it should help Jones (or anyone else).

He isn't an elite QB, he needs help.
DJ should be a difference maker and he certainly can be that.  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/5/2021 12:07 pm : link
Asking him to BE the offense is something you can only expect elite veteran QBs to do.

Unless our offensive line gets besieged with injuries, based on the talent we added, I expect at least a top 12 offense next year by year's end. Legit number 1 WR finally with some good depth, decent TE group, stud RB with decent backup(I think a lot more of Booker than most here apparently), and a competent OL that can run block, but doesn't pass block well. Would anyone be pounding the table to sign him to a second contract if he's Jacoby Brisset?

People are going to be very, very surprised on what the offense looks next year with Saquon coming back. It's going to force teams into man, which we now have WRs that get open, and because we have talent on outside, DJ is going to gash teams in pass game with long runs probably once or twice a game.
2019 was also a poor season  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 12:08 pm : link
If that year was indicative of what Jones can be then we're definitely in need of a quarterback.
RE: RE: Jones apologist...  
Thegratefulhead : 5/5/2021 12:08 pm : link
In comment 15254657 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15254614 trueblueinpw said:


Quote:


I know we’ve all been over this, at least a thousand times. But the one argument that still irks me is the idea that Jones just needs more talent around him. This excuse, which he carries all the way through his professional *and* college career is to me the least convincing.

Would Jones be better with All Pro players at every position? Well, yeah, but is there a player in the NFL who wouldn’t? Has the talent with Jones been great? Well, we know that someone like Tate is long in the tooth and past his prime, sure, but he had a legit NFL career. Is Slayton an all world player? No, but he’s in the NFL. Our line hasn’t been good but even there, we do have AT, a top ten pick, Hernandez a top 2nd round pick. There’s talent on the offense, Barks the number 2, EE a first round pick, Shep, and on and on. Some of you act like Jones is out there playing with a bunch of guys from the neighborhood bar’s flag football league. He’s in the NFL and the guys he’s playing with are all among the very best football players in the country.

For the old timers, remember when we used to talk about LT in his first couple of years and how all he needed was a better defensive line and a better defensive backfield and full off season to get ready and he needed a few good linebackers to play with? Yeah, me neither. Great players make the players around them great. It’s not the other way around.

Now if Jones were taken in the third round we’d all be a lot more forgiving of his heretofore lack of greatness. But Jones was the 6th overall pick - there shouldn’t be a debate at this point with the sixth overall pick. Enough about the talent around him, it’s time for this guy to be the person on the Giants who is making the players around him better. It’s time to start winning some football games.



Good write-up. I've been over a lot of that real estate myself.

It goes back to this - expectations. There is a loud, large faction on this board who don't think Jones should be a difference maker. He's just one piece of the puzzle and he's the one who needs to be dependent on others, not the other way around. For them, it doesn't matter if Jones was drafted #6 or in the 6th round. He's just 1/11th of the offense...
I am not sure I am seeing that in more than q or 2 people. You should really address that directly. Jones needs to win games, I don't care how. If that is great D, special teams and limiting turnovers, then, that is his role if it wins. If he needs to score 30 a game, that is what he has to do. It depends on the team around him.

Yes, I do give him a pass for 2020. Get your eraser.

It is fair.

Also fair.

Put up or shut the fuck up in 2021.

Time is up.
RE: RE: And I fucking hate it  
djm : 5/5/2021 12:09 pm : link
In comment 15254640 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15254616 djm said:


Quote:


when people make shit up to prove something. Jones has never played well in the NFL? Never? He never threw four-five TD passes in a game? That win against Philly didn't happen last year? He didn't deliver a perfect dime to Engram in the first Philly game and play well enough that day? He didn't play well against Dallas week 17 in 21?

Fucking childish. That's what children do. You should be banned from a thread after doing this.



You're the only one throwing a tantrum djm...


uhh...ok. Is that what calling out BS is called these days?

When an adult resorts to exaggerations I call that fucking horse shit. How's that sound?

The Mike  
UConn4523 : 5/5/2021 12:09 pm : link
so now we are extending him despite a bad 2021? This is the type of stuff that makes you want to bang your head on a desk.

I can assure you if he stinks that Judge will do everything in his power to not only not pay him, but find his replacement. Doing otherwise would completely contradict how he's managed this team from his very first day as a Giant.
RE: 2019 was also a poor season  
UConn4523 : 5/5/2021 12:11 pm : link
In comment 15254679 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If that year was indicative of what Jones can be then we're definitely in need of a quarterback.


Sure but we saw him clean up the fumbles, if that persists and getting weapons leads to the TD's he was able to produce, we will be onto something.

You can't have it all your way. He did some nice things his rookie year its just that the fumbles completely negated them.
RE: well its also time to get over him being the 6th pick  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 12:11 pm : link
In comment 15254673 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
he was selected where he was and that should no longer matter when it comes to how we build the team. Whether he should be elevating lesser players or not couldn't be more irrelevant now. The team needed an upgrade and its reasonable to assume it should help Jones (or anyone else).

He isn't an elite QB, he needs help.


I agree with this. The problem is the Giants don't. If his being the 6th pick overall didn't matter we'd be entering 2021 with Justin Fields as our quarterback.

If that were Andy Dalton or Ryan Fitzpatrick that threw 11 TDs in 2020 you think he'd be the quarterback again in 2021? No fucking way.

The only reason Jones is still the quarterback is that he was the 6th pick in the draft.
Zeke...  
bw in dc : 5/5/2021 12:12 pm : link
I don't know what we have with such an inexperienced OL. I wish we had done more to upgrade it.

However, you are spot on. The skill positions have been filled. And if Jones can be who he is supposed to be the expectations should be at least 24ppg. Which would be very close to where we need to be...I hope.
RE: 2019 was also a poor season  
djm : 5/5/2021 12:12 pm : link
In comment 15254679 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If that year was indicative of what Jones can be then we're definitely in need of a quarterback.


Is that how you play this game? The Rookie year is indicative of a QBs career trajectory?

Simms doesn't count. Eli doesn't count. Tannenhill doesn't count. None of those dudes count. Josh Allen? Go fuck yourself, doesn't count. And he was better in year 2 anyway so it doesn't fit I guess. Many rookie QBs don't even play that first year? Fuck off, doesn't count.

Jones is who he is. Always will be. Thanks for playing.

RE: RE: 2019 was also a poor season  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 12:12 pm : link
In comment 15254685 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15254679 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If that year was indicative of what Jones can be then we're definitely in need of a quarterback.



Sure but we saw him clean up the fumbles, if that persists and getting weapons leads to the TD's he was able to produce, we will be onto something.

You can't have it all your way. He did some nice things his rookie year its just that the fumbles completely negated them.


He did not clean up the fumbles. He fumbled 11 times, tied for the league lead.
RE: DJ should be a difference maker and he certainly can be that.  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2021 12:13 pm : link
In comment 15254675 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
Asking him to BE the offense is something you can only expect elite veteran QBs to do.



There is nowhere near enough "certainty" he can be a difference maker.

That is what many of his critics on this thread are saying.
yep  
djm : 5/5/2021 12:15 pm : link
only reason he's QB is he was a high pick.

Never mind WHY he was a high pick in the first place. Also never mind that the Giants just cut a former 1st round DB named Baker before his second season even started.

Of course he's still here because he was a first round pick. He was picked high for a reason. The Giants still see those same reasons or attributes to this day and want to keep at this.

I know you're better than this. You just live for this shit.
RE: RE: well its also time to get over him being the 6th pick  
The Mike : 5/5/2021 12:15 pm : link
In comment 15254686 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15254673 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


he was selected where he was and that should no longer matter when it comes to how we build the team. Whether he should be elevating lesser players or not couldn't be more irrelevant now. The team needed an upgrade and its reasonable to assume it should help Jones (or anyone else).

He isn't an elite QB, he needs help.



I agree with this. The problem is the Giants don't. If his being the 6th pick overall didn't matter we'd be entering 2021 with Justin Fields as our quarterback.

If that were Andy Dalton or Ryan Fitzpatrick that threw 11 TDs in 2020 you think he'd be the quarterback again in 2021? No fucking way.

The only reason Jones is still the quarterback is that he was the 6th pick in the draft.


This is exactly the right point. It is the Giants, not the fans, that cannot get over where he was drafted. We are simply praying that the team will not continue to make mistakes to support and defend drafting him at six.
he went from 1.5 fumbles a game  
UConn4523 : 5/5/2021 12:16 pm : link
to almost half of that. He isn't cured but its a huge improvement, just about in line with Allen, Jackson, etc. I'd like him to fumble less, and I assume that's achievable with better protection and better skill players.
RE: RE: 2019 was also a poor season  
Greg from LI : 5/5/2021 12:18 pm : link
In comment 15254688 djm said:
Quote:
Jones is who he is. Always will be.


How comforting!
why didn't Tepper take Fields?  
UConn4523 : 5/5/2021 12:19 pm : link
he traded for Darnold who's uninspiring to put it mildly. Isn't Fields a huge upgrade for them or no?

NFL teams aren't going to recycle QB's every 2 years and despite what you think, they may actually have faith in Jones. Shocking, I know.
RE: RE: RE: well its also time to get over him being the 6th pick  
djm : 5/5/2021 12:19 pm : link
In comment 15254695 The Mike said:
Quote:
In comment 15254686 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15254673 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


he was selected where he was and that should no longer matter when it comes to how we build the team. Whether he should be elevating lesser players or not couldn't be more irrelevant now. The team needed an upgrade and its reasonable to assume it should help Jones (or anyone else).

He isn't an elite QB, he needs help.



I agree with this. The problem is the Giants don't. If his being the 6th pick overall didn't matter we'd be entering 2021 with Justin Fields as our quarterback.

If that were Andy Dalton or Ryan Fitzpatrick that threw 11 TDs in 2020 you think he'd be the quarterback again in 2021? No fucking way.

The only reason Jones is still the quarterback is that he was the 6th pick in the draft.



This is exactly the right point. It is the Giants, not the fans, that cannot get over where he was drafted. We are simply praying that the team will not continue to make mistakes to support and defend drafting him at six.


It's a stupid point.

He's not here because he was a first round pick. He's here because he possesses traits and talents that got him drafted in round 1.

If Jones was worse, or if he was acting like an asshole on and off the field, or if he was sleeping in practice or video sessions, he wouldn't be here anymore or he'd be a backup.

You know, like Haskins, the same player 90% of this place wanted instead of Jones. If Jones was acting like Haskins he'd be outta here too.

Keep making shit up.
you don't know what the coaches know  
djm : 5/5/2021 12:20 pm : link
and you never will.

have a good day.
RE: RE: 2019 was also a poor season  
Angel Eyes : 5/5/2021 12:21 pm : link
In comment 15254688 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15254679 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If that year was indicative of what Jones can be then we're definitely in need of a quarterback.



Is that how you play this game? The Rookie year is indicative of a QBs career trajectory?

Simms doesn't count. Eli doesn't count. Tannenhill doesn't count. None of those dudes count. Josh Allen? Go fuck yourself, doesn't count. And he was better in year 2 anyway so it doesn't fit I guess. Many rookie QBs don't even play that first year? Fuck off, doesn't count.

Jones is who he is. Always will be. Thanks for playing.

Plus Simms played pretty badly in college; he never played in a bowl game, completed less than half his throws, and threw more interceptions than college. Yet the Giants drafted him at no.7 overall.
RE: RE: well its also time to get over him being the 6th pick  
Bill L : 5/5/2021 12:22 pm : link
In comment 15254686 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15254673 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


he was selected where he was and that should no longer matter when it comes to how we build the team. Whether he should be elevating lesser players or not couldn't be more irrelevant now. The team needed an upgrade and its reasonable to assume it should help Jones (or anyone else).

He isn't an elite QB, he needs help.



I agree with this. The problem is the Giants don't. If his being the 6th pick overall didn't matter we'd be entering 2021 with Justin Fields as our quarterback.

If that were Andy Dalton or Ryan Fitzpatrick that threw 11 TDs in 2020 you think he'd be the quarterback again in 2021? No fucking way.

The only reason Jones is still the quarterback is that he was the 6th pick in the draft.


That's not true. Or, at the very least it's a absolute statement unfounded and unsupported by anything.

You have no idea what their evaluation of Jones is based upon their knowledge of him, his practice, his performance, and the overall circumstances. You have absolutely know idea of what they believe is his potential (or lack), what he needs to do to improve, or, more importantly, whether or not he *can* improve.

It is simply a baseless statement. Unless, of course, you're willing to pony up their correspondence that states their rationale for keeping Jones.
RE: Zeke...  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/5/2021 12:23 pm : link
In comment 15254687 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I don't know what we have with such an inexperienced OL. I wish we had done more to upgrade it.

However, you are spot on. The skill positions have been filled. And if Jones can be who he is supposed to be the expectations should be at least 24ppg. Which would be very close to where we need to be...I hope.


I don't feel comfortable putting a PPG on it just yet, until I see this team in action, although 24 seems reasonable. But I certainly get the feeling, with this defense and run game, we are going to milk clock decreasing the overall PPG. We saw them do the same thing last year to an extreme degree because the offense was so bad.

Points per drive, overall TD/TO ratio, and high red zone percentage are certain things I want to see much higher this year.

RE: RE: RE: Again, you've put words in my mouth  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/5/2021 12:24 pm : link
In comment 15254672 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15254633 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15254579 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I haven't said "nothing that can happen can change this". Why make shit up?

I've said Jones isn't a good starting NFL quarterback. I've laid out numerous reasons for it: stats, scouting reports, video clips. The evidence that he isn't very good is plentiful and easy to find, because he hasn't been. It's not impossible that he'll be good; there's just no reason to believe he will based on what we've seen and what he's done in five years of high level football. The next time he plays really good football for a full season will be the first.

That's definitive, because it's a fact. I didn't have to make that up or put words in someone else's mouth.


It's funny when Britt latches onto a single sentence.

If you try to do the same thing to him, he accuses you of being high.



You were fucking high if you think any of your posts about me on this thread were actually true after you dug up the thread in question. They’re all above for anybody to read.

You have literally tacked on words and taken quotes out of context for the latter half of this thread, and I was "fucking high" when I actually linked the exact point that I was making about you. You want the Giants to be a Hallmark movie. I want them to win.
RE: RE: RE: 2019 was also a poor season  
Angel Eyes : 5/5/2021 12:25 pm : link
In comment 15254709 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
In comment 15254688 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 15254679 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If that year was indicative of what Jones can be then we're definitely in need of a quarterback.



Is that how you play this game? The Rookie year is indicative of a QBs career trajectory?

Simms doesn't count. Eli doesn't count. Tannenhill doesn't count. None of those dudes count. Josh Allen? Go fuck yourself, doesn't count. And he was better in year 2 anyway so it doesn't fit I guess. Many rookie QBs don't even play that first year? Fuck off, doesn't count.

Jones is who he is. Always will be. Thanks for playing.



Plus Simms played pretty badly in college; he never played in a bowl game, completed less than half his throws, and threw more interceptions than touchdowns. Yet the Giants drafted him at no.7 overall.
RE: The Mike  
The Mike : 5/5/2021 12:25 pm : link
In comment 15254683 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
so now we are extending him despite a bad 2021? This is the type of stuff that makes you want to bang your head on a desk.

I can assure you if he stinks that Judge will do everything in his power to not only not pay him, but find his replacement. Doing otherwise would completely contradict how he's managed this team from his very first day as a Giant.


This is why this thread has become a hotbed. Judge's comments suggest that he would rather play an injured tough kid who was in hindsight not ready to play, than to win with Colt McCoy who had just beaten the Seahawks. I think Judge is the best thing to happen to the Giants since George Young so I hope you are right.
RE: why didn't Tepper take Fields?  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 12:25 pm : link
In comment 15254702 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
he traded for Darnold who's uninspiring to put it mildly. Isn't Fields a huge upgrade for them or no?

NFL teams aren't going to recycle QB's every 2 years and despite what you think, they may actually have faith in Jones. Shocking, I know.


That would be shocking, based on the level of his play.

If they have faith in him, this isn't a "prove it year". He'd have already proven it.
RE: At the end of the day, I don't give a shit who the QB, Coach, or GM is  
christian : 5/5/2021 12:25 pm : link
In comment 15254369 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
if the Giants are winning.

People accuse me of being overly loyal or a fan boy of any of the above, but I'm not. That should be apparent with how happy I was with the Jones pick. Now I want him to win.


No one should ever question that you are a genuine Giants fan first and foremost. You've always rooted for the guy in the seat with a lot of passion. I rarely agree with you, but you're a really sincere fan.
RE: RE: DJ should be a difference maker and he certainly can be that.  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/5/2021 12:26 pm : link
In comment 15254692 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15254675 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


Asking him to BE the offense is something you can only expect elite veteran QBs to do.





There is nowhere near enough "certainty" he can be a difference maker.

That is what many of his critics on this thread are saying.


And why would you expect certainty being in his second year, in his second offense, with dog shit around him. It's completely unreasonable. I saw a QB who improved in ways that were definitely coaching points over the offseason and just needed reps to get the process a bit faster. That is why I said he "certainly" can be a difference-maker. Can be. His critics just point to stats, which are heavily influenced by what is going on around you.
RE: why didn't Tepper take Fields?  
bw in dc : 5/5/2021 12:27 pm : link
In comment 15254702 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
he traded for Darnold who's uninspiring to put it mildly. Isn't Fields a huge upgrade for them or no?

NFL teams aren't going to recycle QB's every 2 years and despite what you think, they may actually have faith in Jones. Shocking, I know.


That's a fair question. But they sort of got themselves in a bind by giving up a second for Darnold. Suggesting - to me - that they were very high on Darnold as a solution.

On Fields, btw, I think he's gone to QB Hell in Chicago. That organization has not been good for a long, long time developing QBs under any HC. If Fields can overcome the history, he's going to be special...
RE: RE: RE: 2020 Outlier  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/5/2021 12:28 pm : link
In comment 15254648 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15254638 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15254635 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


Even if we have another pandemic it will handled much better. I completely throw out 2020 for my Jones evaluation. What happened in 2020 was out this world. My take on Jones is based on growth over 2019. If you want to hold him to the fire for 2020. Have at it.

Every team had to deal with Covid is too simple. Find an actual person that played QB in the NFL and ask them how easy it is for a second year QB to deal with a completely new offense and coach.

We know the answer right?

Then ask, take away his starting RB in week 2, and throw in an almost entirely new OL.

Harder.

OK, now ask that QB about doing THAT during covid with less practice than ever and remote learning that you had never experienced before.

Maybe DJ bombs, but stop the insanity, let this year play out and for heaven's sake get in the kid's corner for a minute or two.





I've said this before and I'll keep saying it: we can reasonably deduce that EITHER 2020 OR 2019 is going to ultimately be viewed as an outlier for DJ.

We just don't know which yet.

One season had a pandemic, it is no stretch to point out which is the more likely outlier.

Except that other QBs didn't struggle due to the pandemic, including rookies, who one might reasonably assume would be exactly as impacted as a 2nd year player with a new offense.

And also except for the fact that the pandemic year might have actually been more consistent with DJ's collegiate career and the concerns that he carried into the NFL.

It was a step backward, even with the context of the pandemic, IMO.

Here's the thing: we don't have to decide which one was the outlier. History will.
I am just sick of hearing shit around here that is made up  
djm : 5/5/2021 12:31 pm : link
DG will never trade down.
DG would never cut bait on a player he drafted or signed (LOL yeah OK)
Giants will never move on from Eli. (they likely were prepared to in 2018 but they didn't like any of the QBs at 2)
Giants will never hire someone from outside the org. Judge says HI.

Now I am supposed to believe that the Giants are afraid of admitting that Jones was a mistake. Lovely. Another made up gem.
RE: RE: RE: DJ should be a difference maker and he certainly can be that.  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2021 12:31 pm : link
In comment 15254726 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15254692 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15254675 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


Asking him to BE the offense is something you can only expect elite veteran QBs to do.





There is nowhere near enough "certainty" he can be a difference maker.

That is what many of his critics on this thread are saying.



And why would you expect certainty being in his second year, in his second offense, with dog shit around him. It's completely unreasonable. I saw a QB who improved in ways that were definitely coaching points over the offseason and just needed reps to get the process a bit faster. That is why I said he "certainly" can be a difference-maker. Can be. His critics just point to stats, which are heavily influenced by what is going on around you.


Yes agree, although his critics don't just point to stats. I support his 3rd year but have seen plenty of non-stat reasons on Sundays to be very concerned.

Those words are a bit too close I guess...
RE: RE: why didn't Tepper take Fields?  
UConn4523 : 5/5/2021 12:37 pm : link
In comment 15254721 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15254702 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


he traded for Darnold who's uninspiring to put it mildly. Isn't Fields a huge upgrade for them or no?

NFL teams aren't going to recycle QB's every 2 years and despite what you think, they may actually have faith in Jones. Shocking, I know.



That would be shocking, based on the level of his play.

If they have faith in him, this isn't a "prove it year". He'd have already proven it.


Yeah we all get it, haha, good lord. Take it up with Judge then, I don't really know what else to say anymore. Everything about Jones stinks, 2021 is going to stink, we are going to then sign him to a $200m contract I on top of it.

Lets all just join in on the stink, its all the rage apparently.
RE: RE: why didn't Tepper take Fields?  
Bill L : 5/5/2021 12:37 pm : link
In comment 15254729 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15254702 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


he traded for Darnold who's uninspiring to put it mildly. Isn't Fields a huge upgrade for them or no?

NFL teams aren't going to recycle QB's every 2 years and despite what you think, they may actually have faith in Jones. Shocking, I know.



That's a fair question. But they sort of got themselves in a bind by giving up a second for Darnold. Suggesting - to me - that they were very high on Darnold as a solution.

On Fields, btw, I think he's gone to QB Hell in Chicago. That organization has not been good for a long, long time developing QBs under any HC. If Fields can overcome the history, he's going to be special...


Unless he was never special to begin with. That's unanswerable. But, in a weird way, it brings us back to the exact same argument we are having here about Jones.
RE: RE: RE: RE: DJ should be a difference maker and he certainly can be that.  
Bill L : 5/5/2021 12:40 pm : link
In comment 15254738 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15254726 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


In comment 15254692 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15254675 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


Asking him to BE the offense is something you can only expect elite veteran QBs to do.





There is nowhere near enough "certainty" he can be a difference maker.

That is what many of his critics on this thread are saying.



And why would you expect certainty being in his second year, in his second offense, with dog shit around him. It's completely unreasonable. I saw a QB who improved in ways that were definitely coaching points over the offseason and just needed reps to get the process a bit faster. That is why I said he "certainly" can be a difference-maker. Can be. His critics just point to stats, which are heavily influenced by what is going on around you.



Yes agree, although his critics don't just point to stats. I support his 3rd year but have seen plenty of non-stat reasons on Sundays to be very concerned.

Those words are a bit too close I guess...


I think that you are on the side almost everyone else is. They support his third year, see some reasons for concern, and that this is when he has to put up or be gone. Other than GT and, maybe bw(?), virtually everyone else is on the same page.
Its also worth mentioning  
UConn4523 : 5/5/2021 12:43 pm : link
that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).

So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?
RE: Its also worth mentioning  
bw in dc : 5/5/2021 12:50 pm : link
In comment 15254759 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).

So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?


I don't believe for one second the boys at One Giants Way gave consideration to any of these QBs (unless, of course, a miracle happened and TL fell...)

And that is troubling to me because Fields is so much more advanced and physically more gifted than Jones at this same point in their draft process. I don't even think it's particularly close.

Terps and I kicked this around a few times pre-draft and wondered what we would do if Fields fell to #11. Both of us sort of felt that was likely not going to happen, but it should be a no-brainer move...

Well, as the draft gods would have it, we had the opportunity.

Right now, IMV, outside of maybe Sam Howell, who I really like, Fields is better than ANY QB prospect in the '22 pool. Pretty comfortably too...
RE: RE: RE: RE: 2020 Outlier  
Thegratefulhead : 5/5/2021 12:51 pm : link
In comment 15254732 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15254648 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 15254638 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15254635 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


Even if we have another pandemic it will handled much better. I completely throw out 2020 for my Jones evaluation. What happened in 2020 was out this world. My take on Jones is based on growth over 2019. If you want to hold him to the fire for 2020. Have at it.

Every team had to deal with Covid is too simple. Find an actual person that played QB in the NFL and ask them how easy it is for a second year QB to deal with a completely new offense and coach.

We know the answer right?

Then ask, take away his starting RB in week 2, and throw in an almost entirely new OL.

Harder.

OK, now ask that QB about doing THAT during covid with less practice than ever and remote learning that you had never experienced before.

Maybe DJ bombs, but stop the insanity, let this year play out and for heaven's sake get in the kid's corner for a minute or two.





I've said this before and I'll keep saying it: we can reasonably deduce that EITHER 2020 OR 2019 is going to ultimately be viewed as an outlier for DJ.

We just don't know which yet.

One season had a pandemic, it is no stretch to point out which is the more likely outlier.


Except that other QBs didn't struggle due to the pandemic, including rookies, who one might reasonably assume would be exactly as impacted as a 2nd year player with a new offense.

And also except for the fact that the pandemic year might have actually been more consistent with DJ's collegiate career and the concerns that he carried into the NFL.

It was a step backward, even with the context of the pandemic, IMO.

Here's the thing: we don't have to decide which one was the outlier. History will.
Agreed. I state what I feel but I am all about 2021. Show me. GD I believe to have sustained winning in the NFL, you need a coach and a QB. I think we have both. They have prove it, with wins. I would not defend that opinion in the face of losing. You can count on that. If DJ bombs I will want a new QB.
Question: Is "One Giants Way"  
Bill L : 5/5/2021 12:52 pm : link
the new "Jints Central"?
RE: Question: Is  
bw in dc : 5/5/2021 12:56 pm : link
In comment 15254781 Bill L said:
Quote:
the new "Jints Central"?


I felt it was time for an upgrade. So we're in the test marketing phase... ;)
Well if you’re convinced they didn’t even think of it  
UConn4523 : 5/5/2021 12:56 pm : link
what’s the point, right?
RE: Its also worth mentioning  
BrettNYG10 : 5/5/2021 12:57 pm : link
In comment 15254759 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).

So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?


I'm very curious on how the Giants rated the QBs vs the 2019 grade on Jones. They obviously would have taken Lawrence. And obviously they did pass on Fields/Jones. Would they have picked Wilson? Lance?

I'm actually more curious on how NYG operates more than anything Daniel Jones specific.
RE: RE: Its also worth mentioning  
Thegratefulhead : 5/5/2021 12:59 pm : link
In comment 15254776 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15254759 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).

So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?



I don't believe for one second the boys at One Giants Way gave consideration to any of these QBs (unless, of course, a miracle happened and TL fell...)

And that is troubling to me because Fields is so much more advanced and physically more gifted than Jones at this same point in their draft process. I don't even think it's particularly close.

Terps and I kicked this around a few times pre-draft and wondered what we would do if Fields fell to #11. Both of us sort of felt that was likely not going to happen, but it should be a no-brainer move...

Well, as the draft gods would have it, we had the opportunity.

Right now, IMV, outside of maybe Sam Howell, who I really like, Fields is better than ANY QB prospect in the '22 pool. Pretty comfortably too...
Right now, fine but a useless opinion as they have not played the season yet. I would much rather have the result the trade over Fields. Fields is pixie dust as a NFL QB. I have no confidence in the Bears developing him. The Giants didn't draft Fields because the coach and GM did not want him. If you are telling me there are Mara draft mandates... I just can't. That is conspiracy nonsense.
RE: RE: Its also worth mentioning  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 1:01 pm : link
In comment 15254791 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 15254759 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).

So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?



I'm very curious on how the Giants rated the QBs vs the 2019 grade on Jones. They obviously would have taken Lawrence. And obviously they did pass on Fields/Jones. Would they have picked Wilson? Lance?

I'm actually more curious on how NYG operates more than anything Daniel Jones specific.


I'm not even sure they would have taken Lawrence.
RE: RE: Question: Is  
Bill L : 5/5/2021 1:01 pm : link
In comment 15254787 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15254781 Bill L said:


Quote:


the new "Jints Central"?



I felt it was time for an upgrade. So we're in the test marketing phase... ;)


tbh, I was shocked you didn't upgrade to LWilliam$.
RE: RE: RE: Its also worth mentioning  
Bill L : 5/5/2021 1:02 pm : link
In comment 15254801 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15254791 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


In comment 15254759 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).

So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?



I'm very curious on how the Giants rated the QBs vs the 2019 grade on Jones. They obviously would have taken Lawrence. And obviously they did pass on Fields/Jones. Would they have picked Wilson? Lance?

I'm actually more curious on how NYG operates more than anything Daniel Jones specific.



I'm not even sure they would have taken Lawrence.


Again, do you have data to support that?
we all agree  
djm : 5/5/2021 1:03 pm : link
we want Jones to kick ass in 21. Let's leave it at that. I can't wait for this coming season. Ill bow out.
RE: RE: RE: Its also worth mentioning  
BrettNYG10 : 5/5/2021 1:05 pm : link
In comment 15254801 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15254791 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


In comment 15254759 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).

So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?



I'm very curious on how the Giants rated the QBs vs the 2019 grade on Jones. They obviously would have taken Lawrence. And obviously they did pass on Fields/Jones. Would they have picked Wilson? Lance?

I'm actually more curious on how NYG operates more than anything Daniel Jones specific.



I'm not even sure they would have taken Lawrence.


How do you reconcile your view that Joe Judge doesn't believe in Jones and your view that Lawrence wouldn't be picked if they had #1? Those seem incongruent to me?

I'd add, I think DG would have been canned if we picked #1.
the 2022 class has a ton of potential  
UConn4523 : 5/5/2021 1:05 pm : link
starting with a full season + holdovers from 2021 opt outs that didn't declare. Whoever the top 5 now are going to change a lot 11 months from now. Zach Wilson was a JAG until 2020, for example.
he's just going to say that Mara and/or DG  
UConn4523 : 5/5/2021 1:06 pm : link
would never "admit it" and sign off on picking another QB so early. Rinse, repeat. Not even worth arguing.
RE: RE: RE: Its also worth mentioning  
bw in dc : 5/5/2021 1:06 pm : link
In comment 15254796 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
Right now, fine but a useless opinion as they have not played the season yet. I would much rather have the result the trade over Fields. Fields is pixie dust as a NFL QB. I have no confidence in the Bears developing him. The Giants didn't draft Fields because the coach and GM did not want him. If you are telling me there are Mara draft mandates... I just can't. That is conspiracy nonsense.


It's going to be very interesting to see how Nagy can work with Fields. He somehow figured out how to win with Trubisky, but Trubisky just flattened out with his growth. But I don't feel good about Fields in Chicago...

I didn't saying anything about Mara and mandates. The message was pretty clear - the brass feel Daniel Jones is clearly a better QB solution than Fields.

If Field develops, and Jones stumbles this year, we are going to have to Fields to the basket of QBs we could have had instead of Jones.
Terps..  
Sean : 5/5/2021 1:07 pm : link
Either you believe the process has improved or not. If the Giants had the first pick in the draft, they would have picked Lawrence. Plenty of QB needy teams passed on Fields.
RE: Terps..  
UConn4523 : 5/5/2021 1:11 pm : link
In comment 15254818 Sean said:
Quote:
Either you believe the process has improved or not. If the Giants had the first pick in the draft, they would have picked Lawrence. Plenty of QB needy teams passed on Fields.


Atlanta, Carolina, Denver, Philly (they even traded up and took someone else) all have major questions at QB. All chose a different route. Maybe Fields ends up being great, and they will all regret it, or maybe not. But its pretty clear that it isn't just the Giants that operate this way.

Shouldn't the Broncos of all teams be salivating at the opportunity to finally upgrade at QB? What has Lock done to instill any confidence?
bw...  
Bill L : 5/5/2021 1:12 pm : link
Jones v Hurts?
also, among Joneses...D v M?
RE: RE: RE: Question: Is  
bw in dc : 5/5/2021 1:12 pm : link
In comment 15254804 Bill L said:
Quote:

tbh, I was shocked you didn't upgrade to LWilliam$.


That's very good. I'm very disappointed our marketing department missed that.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Its also worth mentioning  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 1:13 pm : link
In comment 15254806 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15254801 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15254791 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


In comment 15254759 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).

So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?



I'm very curious on how the Giants rated the QBs vs the 2019 grade on Jones. They obviously would have taken Lawrence. And obviously they did pass on Fields/Jones. Would they have picked Wilson? Lance?

I'm actually more curious on how NYG operates more than anything Daniel Jones specific.



I'm not even sure they would have taken Lawrence.



Again, do you have data to support that?


It's just a guess. They seem hell bent on making it work with Jones.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Its also worth mentioning  
Bill L : 5/5/2021 1:14 pm : link
In comment 15254829 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15254806 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 15254801 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15254791 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


In comment 15254759 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).

So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?



I'm very curious on how the Giants rated the QBs vs the 2019 grade on Jones. They obviously would have taken Lawrence. And obviously they did pass on Fields/Jones. Would they have picked Wilson? Lance?

I'm actually more curious on how NYG operates more than anything Daniel Jones specific.



I'm not even sure they would have taken Lawrence.



Again, do you have data to support that?



It's just a guess. They seem hell bent on making it work with Jones.


That's very unusual for a team to want to do that with its QB.
RE: Terps..  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 1:17 pm : link
In comment 15254818 Sean said:
Quote:
Either you believe the process has improved or not. If the Giants had the first pick in the draft, they would have picked Lawrence. Plenty of QB needy teams passed on Fields.


I think it's improved, but Gettleman is still in the building and still very invested in Jones. I don't believe that his and Judge's agendas are perfectly aligned here. But none of us can know that for sure.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Its also worth mentioning  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 1:18 pm : link
In comment 15254831 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15254829 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15254806 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 15254801 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15254791 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


In comment 15254759 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).

So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?



I'm very curious on how the Giants rated the QBs vs the 2019 grade on Jones. They obviously would have taken Lawrence. And obviously they did pass on Fields/Jones. Would they have picked Wilson? Lance?

I'm actually more curious on how NYG operates more than anything Daniel Jones specific.



I'm not even sure they would have taken Lawrence.



Again, do you have data to support that?



It's just a guess. They seem hell bent on making it work with Jones.



That's very unusual for a team to want to do that with its QB.


For a QB performing as poorly as Jones? Yeah it kind of is.
RE: RE: Its also worth mentioning  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/5/2021 1:19 pm : link
In comment 15254776 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15254759 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).

So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?



I don't believe for one second the boys at One Giants Way gave consideration to any of these QBs (unless, of course, a miracle happened and TL fell...)

And that is troubling to me because Fields is so much more advanced and physically more gifted than Jones at this same point in their draft process. I don't even think it's particularly close.

Terps and I kicked this around a few times pre-draft and wondered what we would do if Fields fell to #11. Both of us sort of felt that was likely not going to happen, but it should be a no-brainer move...

Well, as the draft gods would have it, we had the opportunity.

Right now, IMV, outside of maybe Sam Howell, who I really like, Fields is better than ANY QB prospect in the '22 pool. Pretty comfortably too...


Considering you also had Ryan Finley and Drew Lock as being really good QB prospects coming out, I'm not sure you really have much of a right to post things as if anything is comfortable. Fields will get a chance to prove he can play - so the answer will be clearly seen in the years to come.
Is it just..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/5/2021 1:23 pm : link
a fucking parody at this point??

Most NFL teams give their players time to develop. QB's especially. But the Giants going with Jones in year 3 is them being "hell bent" to make it work.

Again - just a fucking ridiculous take in a year where you've made so many of them.
RE: RE: Terps..  
The Mike : 5/5/2021 1:23 pm : link
In comment 15254825 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15254818 Sean said:


Quote:


Either you believe the process has improved or not. If the Giants had the first pick in the draft, they would have picked Lawrence. Plenty of QB needy teams passed on Fields.



Atlanta, Carolina, Denver, Philly (they even traded up and took someone else) all have major questions at QB. All chose a different route. Maybe Fields ends up being great, and they will all regret it, or maybe not. But its pretty clear that it isn't just the Giants that operate this way.

Shouldn't the Broncos of all teams be salivating at the opportunity to finally upgrade at QB? What has Lock done to instill any confidence?


Drew Lock has beaten winning teams (Texans 12/8/19, Dolphins 11/22/20). Something Daniel Jones has yet to do. The only stat that matters is W/L% - DJ must lead our team to wins against good opponents and then compete in the playoffs. No improvement in individual stats is relevant to any future extension consideration unless the Giants are beating good teams and reaching the playoffs under DJ's stewardship in 2021.
Well..  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 1:29 pm : link
- They didn't bring in a viable backup to compete with him
- They hugely overpaid Golladay
- They passed on drafting Fields, a legit high end prospect that fell to them unexpectedly

So yeah, I'd say they're hell bent on giving Jones every chance to prove he doesn't suck as much as he's shown in years 1 & 2.
believe it or not  
UConn4523 : 5/5/2021 1:30 pm : link
I couldn't care less what any of these QB's did in college - it was a means to get them drafted where they were and then a clean slate in the NFL. Lock isn't living up to his College production anyway, and has gotten hurt too. Denver seems confident there's something there, is that a no-no? The Broncos didn't even draft a QB at all in 2021, but they did trade for Bridgewater, a guy who was replaced by Darnold, who also has stunk to date?

See where i'm going with this?
RE: Well..  
Bill L : 5/5/2021 1:32 pm : link
In comment 15254853 Go Terps said:
Quote:
- They didn't bring in a viable backup to compete with him
- They hugely overpaid Golladay
- They passed on drafting Fields, a legit high end prospect that fell to them unexpectedly

So yeah, I'd say they're hell bent on giving Jones every chance to prove he doesn't suck as much as he's shown in years 1 & 2.


Tell me about Detroit. They have a failed QB and a situation where Fields would be an upgrade.

Tell me about Philadelphia. They had a golden opportunity to trade ahead of us and take Fields.

And jeepers, tell me about Denver....
Can we..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/5/2021 1:36 pm : link
get a list of teams who have backups intended to push the starter and where that ends up being good?

Why didn't the Browns or Bills bring in backups after Baker and Allen's first two seasons? Why doesn't Arizona have a decent backup? why didn't the Rams backup Goff if they were dissatisfied?

Who exactly are these teams that are trying to create a QB competition?

Exaggeration seems to be a mainstay here. We "hugely overpaid" Golladay too?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: DJ should be a difference maker and he certainly can be that.  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2021 1:37 pm : link
In comment 15254754 Bill L said:
Quote:

Yes agree, although his critics don't just point to stats. I support his 3rd year but have seen plenty of non-stat reasons on Sundays to be very concerned.

Those words are a bit too close I guess...



I think that you are on the side almost everyone else is. They support his third year, see some reasons for concern, and that this is when he has to put up or be gone. Other than GT and, maybe bw(?), virtually everyone else is on the same page.


Sides...whatever. Huge concerns on DJ, but yeah I support him moreso to let it run its course in year 3. Not a big issue as there is no Lombardi coming this season anyway. If he succeeds and he looks the part, then all the better.

And at least it gave that moron GM (thru the obvious help of JJ) another offseason to fix the shitty roster he put together and stuck Jones with anyway.
RE: Can we..  
Bill L : 5/5/2021 1:40 pm : link
In comment 15254871 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
get a list of teams who have backups intended to push the starter and where that ends up being good?

Why didn't the Browns or Bills bring in backups after Baker and Allen's first two seasons? Why doesn't Arizona have a decent backup? why didn't the Rams backup Goff if they were dissatisfied?

Who exactly are these teams that are trying to create a QB competition?

Exaggeration seems to be a mainstay here. We "hugely overpaid" Golladay too?


Wouldn't AZ support GT's point (Murray for Rosen)?
RE: RE: Question: Is  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2021 1:41 pm : link
In comment 15254787 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15254781 Bill L said:


Quote:


the new "Jints Central"?



I felt it was time for an upgrade. So we're in the test marketing phase... ;)


See, you can do to pithy...
Josh Rosen's issues are as much off the field as they are on  
UConn4523 : 5/5/2021 1:46 pm : link
he had to be replaced. Plus its a very specific scenario where the HC they just hired coached the new start QB. Not the best example to use.

Haskins was dumped too, and that was almost exclusively due to his character and work ethic.
RE: RE: RE: Its also worth mentioning  
bw in dc : 5/5/2021 2:23 pm : link
In comment 15254842 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

Considering you also had Ryan Finley and Drew Lock as being really good QB prospects coming out, I'm not sure you really have much of a right to post things as if anything is comfortable. Fields will get a chance to prove he can play - so the answer will be clearly seen in the years to come.


Indeed, Finley has been horrible. But I still like Lock and am curious to see how he does if Denver doesn't trade for Rodgers.

But evaluating QBs is very difficult. On the other hand, since you are keeping score, I was pretty spot on with Allen and Herbert. And said Haskins was not going to work in the NFL.

Regardless, I stand by my Fields view and challenge anyone to say he's not a better prospect at this point than Jones was. I believe Sy graded Fields higher than Jones...
Fields is definitely a better prospect  
UConn4523 : 5/5/2021 2:27 pm : link
but it doesn't seem like its a big enough difference like Lawrence to Jones would be. Lawrence is a much better prospect than Fields, IMO.

So then it comes to how much of a difference does it take to jump ship after 2 years.
10 pages in...  
Brown_Hornet : 5/5/2021 2:27 pm : link
...just a thought;

Giants coach Joe Judge said most other NFL players would have missed more than only two games.

“Look, Daniel is the last guy that’s going to use anything as an excuse,” Judge, who rarely talks about injuries, told The Michael Kay Show on Monday. What I would say about the injury last year is it was much more serious than maybe people thought on the outside. I would say probably 90 percent of players in the league who would have had that injury, including quarterbacks, would have been on IR for the remainder of the year.

That’s just the reality of it. It was much more severe than maybe he allowed people to know or the information that was put out there, and we’re going to protect our players by not disclosing everything about their injuries to be honest with you. He fought through a lot of things. He earned a lot of people’s respect.”
RE: Fields is definitely a better prospect  
bw in dc : 5/5/2021 2:31 pm : link
In comment 15254951 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
but it doesn't seem like its a big enough difference like Lawrence to Jones would be. Lawrence is a much better prospect than Fields, IMO.

So then it comes to how much of a difference does it take to jump ship after 2 years.


Here's my angle here - Garrett. Fields is a more athletic Dak. So if you give him a better version of Dak - and Garrett did excellent work with Dak - things could be very interesting...
At the end of the day,  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 2:46 pm : link
I just wish some common ground could be found so that we can all look forward to, and talk about the upcoming season positively. Critical is fine, but leave the door open to talk about the positives as well.

If you don't think Jones can EVER do this or that, that is a fair belief, but perhaps not one that is going to move any conversation forward, because the soonest it's going to be addressed won't be until next offseason anyway.

Wish we could just put all this bullshit behind us since what's done is done and now they have to play the games. Perhaps all of this other stuff can be revisited once the dust has settled in 2022.
Look at the Panthers..  
Sean : 5/5/2021 2:50 pm : link
Sam Darnold who has a very similar pro career to Daniel Jones does not have competition. And, the viable competition they did have was traded (Bridgewater).
RE: RE: Fields is definitely a better prospect  
UConn4523 : 5/5/2021 2:51 pm : link
In comment 15254956 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15254951 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


but it doesn't seem like its a big enough difference like Lawrence to Jones would be. Lawrence is a much better prospect than Fields, IMO.

So then it comes to how much of a difference does it take to jump ship after 2 years.



Here's my angle here - Garrett. Fields is a more athletic Dak. So if you give him a better version of Dak - and Garrett did excellent work with Dak - things could be very interesting...


Personally i'm not doing anything for Jason Garrett - sink or swim time for him too. I think the Giants know he's gone after this year either by choice (HC offer if the Giants play well) or by being fired.
RE: 10 pages in...  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2021 2:56 pm : link
In comment 15254952 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...just a thought;

Giants coach Joe Judge said most other NFL players would have missed more than only two games.

“Look, Daniel is the last guy that’s going to use anything as an excuse,” Judge, who rarely talks about injuries, told The Michael Kay Show on Monday. What I would say about the injury last year is it was much more serious than maybe people thought on the outside. I would say probably 90 percent of players in the league who would have had that injury, including quarterbacks, would have been on IR for the remainder of the year.

That’s just the reality of it. It was much more severe than maybe he allowed people to know or the information that was put out there, and we’re going to protect our players by not disclosing everything about their injuries to be honest with you. He fought through a lot of things. He earned a lot of people’s respect.”


Already discussed. Look above for comments Nobody questioning DJs toughness although decision to play him was questioned by a few.

Additional thoughts?
RE: At the end of the day,  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 2:59 pm : link
In comment 15254974 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I just wish some common ground could be found so that we can all look forward to, and talk about the upcoming season positively. Critical is fine, but leave the door open to talk about the positives as well.

If you don't think Jones can EVER do this or that, that is a fair belief, but perhaps not one that is going to move any conversation forward, because the soonest it's going to be addressed won't be until next offseason anyway.

Wish we could just put all this bullshit behind us since what's done is done and now they have to play the games. Perhaps all of this other stuff can be revisited once the dust has settled in 2022.


If you want common ground you could probably start by not assigning made up quotes to posters with whom you disagree.
RE: At the end of the day,  
Thegratefulhead : 5/5/2021 3:05 pm : link
In comment 15254974 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I just wish some common ground could be found so that we can all look forward to, and talk about the upcoming season positively. Critical is fine, but leave the door open to talk about the positives as well.

If you don't think Jones can EVER do this or that, that is a fair belief, but perhaps not one that is going to move any conversation forward, because the soonest it's going to be addressed won't be until next offseason anyway.

Wish we could just put all this bullshit behind us since what's done is done and now they have to play the games. Perhaps all of this other stuff can be revisited once the dust has settled in 2022.
I am very critical of the team but once I am past the decision it is time to deal with reality. I think we all agree we had a good draft. The people giving the credit to Judge are the same people saying we should have moved on from Jones. Judge is clearly in Jones corner or he would have drafted Fields or Mac. That just is what it is.

They have painted themselves into a corner. If Jones breaks out, it is going to be brutal for them here. If the Giants move on from Jones before he has the chance to shine, it preserves their narrative. I don't want to jinx it, but I figure Jones has a chance to win me a fantasy league or 2.

I think his AY/A is going to shock those that use that metric to criticize him and they will be unable to not give him credit. The big play potential of the players that have been brought in and those that have returned from injury are going to augment his stats in a very positive way.

YAC boosts the shit out of AY/A as do TDs. We got him some wonderful red zone targets and a human joystick. Big plays in 2021.
RE: RE: At the end of the day,  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/5/2021 3:18 pm : link
In comment 15255024 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15254974 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


I just wish some common ground could be found so that we can all look forward to, and talk about the upcoming season positively. Critical is fine, but leave the door open to talk about the positives as well.

If you don't think Jones can EVER do this or that, that is a fair belief, but perhaps not one that is going to move any conversation forward, because the soonest it's going to be addressed won't be until next offseason anyway.

Wish we could just put all this bullshit behind us since what's done is done and now they have to play the games. Perhaps all of this other stuff can be revisited once the dust has settled in 2022.

I am very critical of the team but once I am past the decision it is time to deal with reality. I think we all agree we had a good draft. The people giving the credit to Judge are the same people saying we should have moved on from Jones. Judge is clearly in Jones corner or he would have drafted Fields or Mac. That just is what it is.

They have painted themselves into a corner. If Jones breaks out, it is going to be brutal for them here. If the Giants move on from Jones before he has the chance to shine, it preserves their narrative. I don't want to jinx it, but I figure Jones has a chance to win me a fantasy league or 2.

I think his AY/A is going to shock those that use that metric to criticize him and they will be unable to not give him credit. The big play potential of the players that have been brought in and those that have returned from injury are going to augment his stats in a very positive way.

YAC boosts the shit out of AY/A as do TDs. We got him some wonderful red zone targets and a human joystick. Big plays in 2021.


To be fair, using AY/A to criticize any QB exposes the poster's ignorance. You made a great point about how having more weapons will almost assuredly lead to AY/A.

And that's because actual football people use it as a measure of offensive efficiency, not a QB measurement. Go Terps tries to use it as a "AHA" moment, but all it does is pull make one more layer of the onion covering up his bias and agenda (which isn't well covered to begin with)
RE: Look at the Panthers..  
Dr. D : 5/5/2021 3:19 pm : link
In comment 15254979 Sean said:
Quote:
Sam Darnold who has a very similar pro career to Daniel Jones does not have competition. And, the viable competition they did have was traded (Bridgewater).

Darnold's actually had a worse career than Jones (an avg QBR of low 40s vs. nearly 60 for Jones), as well as a third season (to prove or not prove himself), which is all most of Jones' defenders are asking for.
Terps, I don't have the direct quotes....  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 3:21 pm : link
but I'm pretty sure you said both of those things.

You said that Daniel Jones wouldn't be more than a career backup.

You said that Dave Gettleman could go 18-0 and win the Superbowl and you would still consider it a bad job.

If I didn't get it EXACTLY right, then my bad. But you said some semblance of both of those statements. I don't know why you're pivoting on it now. If you want to say it was out of context, fine. But do you deny saying either of those things?
I am not going to use any specific QB metric for this year;  
Bill L : 5/5/2021 3:25 pm : link
I don't think we need one.

I'm just going to use "wins".

I don't think even his detractors would say that Jones held the team back in these past 2 years. He might not have uplifted them, but they would not have won much with pretty much anyone at QB.

The roster is now set up so that we may be able to say that they if they do not win, Jones is holding them back. It's possible, but I really doubt it, that they will win and we will know that it was "in spite of Jones".
RE: I am not going to use any specific QB metric for this year;  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/5/2021 3:28 pm : link
In comment 15255078 Bill L said:
Quote:
I don't think we need one.

I'm just going to use "wins".

I don't think even his detractors would say that Jones held the team back in these past 2 years. He might not have uplifted them, but they would not have won much with pretty much anyone at QB.

The roster is now set up so that we may be able to say that they if they do not win, Jones is holding them back. It's possible, but I really doubt it, that they will win and we will know that it was "in spite of Jones".


Not true. It was said that if we had drafted Herbert, we'd have made the playoffs(even though Herbert didn't even make the fucking playoffs). also, I'm pretty sure it was said that Nick Mullens was worth a couple extra wins this year too. I'm not going to scour the archives, but I know this was said: At least two guys on this thread posted in the past that a "NFL average QB" has us in the playoffs. So draw the conclusion from that what you will.
RE: RE: RE: Fields is definitely a better prospect  
bw in dc : 5/5/2021 3:35 pm : link
In comment 15254985 UConn4523 said:
Quote:

Here's my angle here - Garrett. Fields is a more athletic Dak. So if you give him a better version of Dak - and Garrett did excellent work with Dak - things could be very interesting...



Personally i'm not doing anything for Jason Garrett - sink or swim time for him too. I think the Giants know he's gone after this year either by choice (HC offer if the Giants play well) or by being fired.


If Jones has a good season, do you still want Garrett gone? And then have a third OC for Jones?
RE: Terps, I don't have the direct quotes....  
santacruzom : 5/5/2021 3:37 pm : link
In comment 15255073 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
but I'm pretty sure you said both of those things.

You said that Daniel Jones wouldn't be more than a career backup.

You said that Dave Gettleman could go 18-0 and win the Superbowl and you would still consider it a bad job.


There might be some posters who make declarations using definitives like "ever," "never," "no way," "always," etc. But I think they're relatively rare and I definitely haven't seen Terps do so without being obviously sarcastic or hyperbolic for effect. There's a difference, however subtle, between saying, "It doesn't look like Jones will become an elite QB" and "Jones will never become an elite QB."
RE: Terps, I don't have the direct quotes....  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 3:37 pm : link
In comment 15255073 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
but I'm pretty sure you said both of those things.

You said that Daniel Jones wouldn't be more than a career backup.

You said that Dave Gettleman could go 18-0 and win the Superbowl and you would still consider it a bad job.

If I didn't get it EXACTLY right, then my bad. But you said some semblance of both of those statements. I don't know why you're pivoting on it now. If you want to say it was out of context, fine. But do you deny saying either of those things?


I said Jones is an NFL backup. The 18-0 Super Bowl quote not only went over your head, you exaggerated it to completely change the meaning and make it sound crazy. Total bullshit move.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Fields is definitely a better prospect  
Bill L : 5/5/2021 3:37 pm : link
In comment 15255093 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15254985 UConn4523 said:


Quote:



Here's my angle here - Garrett. Fields is a more athletic Dak. So if you give him a better version of Dak - and Garrett did excellent work with Dak - things could be very interesting...



Personally i'm not doing anything for Jason Garrett - sink or swim time for him too. I think the Giants know he's gone after this year either by choice (HC offer if the Giants play well) or by being fired.



If Jones has a good season, do you still want Garrett gone? And then have a third OC for Jones?


Ig he has a good season, the Giants are winning. Garrett would be as good as gone anyway. We should resign ourselves to this being the last year of the Judge-Garrett team.
RE: RE: Terps, I don't have the direct quotes....  
Bill L : 5/5/2021 3:38 pm : link
In comment 15255098 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 15255073 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


but I'm pretty sure you said both of those things.

You said that Daniel Jones wouldn't be more than a career backup.

You said that Dave Gettleman could go 18-0 and win the Superbowl and you would still consider it a bad job.




There might be some posters who make declarations using definitives like "ever," "never," "no way," "always," etc. But I think they're relatively rare and I definitely haven't seen Terps do so without being obviously sarcastic or hyperbolic for effect. There's a difference, however subtle, between saying, "It doesn't look like Jones will become an elite QB" and "Jones will never become an elite QB."


I think that the subsequent post made yours moot.
RE: RE: I am not going to use any specific QB metric for this year;  
bw in dc : 5/5/2021 3:52 pm : link
In comment 15255088 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

Not true. It was said that if we had drafted Herbert, we'd have made the playoffs(even though Herbert didn't even make the fucking playoffs). also, I'm pretty sure it was said that Nick Mullens was worth a couple extra wins this year too. I'm not going to scour the archives, but I know this was said: At least two guys on this thread posted in the past that a "NFL average QB" has us in the playoffs. So draw the conclusion from that what you will.


Well, the Chargers were in the AFCW, a real division. And finished 7-9, which would have been good enough - likely - to win the NFCE.

The NFCE winners only 7-9. NYG was one game back. So it's not a wild assertion to think if we had average QB play we likely win the NFCE. Because Jones was a below average QB last year just using QBR as the benchmark.



Like I said..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/5/2021 3:56 pm : link
Bill's point in this statement has been trampled upon time and again:

Quote:
I don't think even his detractors would say that Jones held the team back in these past 2 years. He might not have uplifted them, but they would not have won much with pretty much anyone at QB.


The detractors think that Jones was a key reason the team hasn't been good - which is why they beat each of these fucking threads to death with the nonsense.
RE: RE: Terps, I don't have the direct quotes....  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 4:03 pm : link
In comment 15255099 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15255073 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


but I'm pretty sure you said both of those things.

You said that Daniel Jones wouldn't be more than a career backup.

You said that Dave Gettleman could go 18-0 and win the Superbowl and you would still consider it a bad job.

If I didn't get it EXACTLY right, then my bad. But you said some semblance of both of those statements. I don't know why you're pivoting on it now. If you want to say it was out of context, fine. But do you deny saying either of those things?



I said Jones is an NFL backup. The 18-0 Super Bowl quote not only went over your head, you exaggerated it to completely change the meaning and make it sound crazy. Total bullshit move.


How did I exaggerate it or misinterpret it? Even with your correction/context:

"Going 18-0 next season wouldn't make up for the bad job Gettleman has done for the prior three years".

Is that more accurate?

It's still nuts. 18-0 would make up for the Giants going 0-48 over the past three years. 18-0 would make up for the past decade of losing. 18-0 would be the greatest achievement in the history of the NFL and Gettleman would deserve FULL credit for that. What am I missing? Basically, you'd still find a way to shit on Gettleman even after an 18-0 season?
Oh, and "career backup" vs. "NFL backup".  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 4:04 pm : link
Not much difference unless you're implying he could be a starter in the CFL.
Still over your head  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 4:06 pm : link
We were so bad from 18-20 that we could go undefeated in 21 and still be under .500 for the four year period.

You may want to just refrain from quoting or citing other posters.
RE: RE: RE: I am not going to use any specific QB metric for this year;  
Thegratefulhead : 5/5/2021 4:11 pm : link
In comment 15255137 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15255088 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:



Not true. It was said that if we had drafted Herbert, we'd have made the playoffs(even though Herbert didn't even make the fucking playoffs). also, I'm pretty sure it was said that Nick Mullens was worth a couple extra wins this year too. I'm not going to scour the archives, but I know this was said: At least two guys on this thread posted in the past that a "NFL average QB" has us in the playoffs. So draw the conclusion from that what you will.



Well, the Chargers were in the AFCW, a real division. And finished 7-9, which would have been good enough - likely - to win the NFCE.

The NFCE winners only 7-9. NYG was one game back. So it's not a wild assertion to think if we had average QB play we likely win the NFCE. Because Jones was a below average QB last year just using QBR as the benchmark.


Some chicken and egg there. Man, Thomas was awful out of the gate. He looked like he was playing in quicksand. That early OL with those skill players would have hurt the QBR of Mahomes...a lot. Then, Jones was injured and was not the same.

If Jones shits the bed this year, I will be with you. I don't see it though. I think this coaching staff has evaluated him and provided him perfect schematic fits. If you were to back off the tiniest bit, you could enjoy his potential success this season. Right now, you are setting yourself up to take a beating every time he has a good game.

The people that are saying prove it in 2021 are going to be able to roll with whatever happens. If he exceeds expectations and has an Allen like 3rd year, you will be thrown in a tar pit and then covered in feathers.

Figuratively.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Fields is definitely a better prospect  
UConn4523 : 5/5/2021 4:19 pm : link
In comment 15255093 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15254985 UConn4523 said:


Quote:



Here's my angle here - Garrett. Fields is a more athletic Dak. So if you give him a better version of Dak - and Garrett did excellent work with Dak - things could be very interesting...



Personally i'm not doing anything for Jason Garrett - sink or swim time for him too. I think the Giants know he's gone after this year either by choice (HC offer if the Giants play well) or by being fired.



If Jones has a good season, do you still want Garrett gone? And then have a third OC for Jones?


No but I don't think it will be up to us, he'd likely get a HC offer. Plus Kitchens sounds like he's heavily involved anyway, so I don't really view this as JG's offense to begin with.
RE: Still over your head  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 4:21 pm : link
In comment 15255163 Go Terps said:
Quote:
We were so bad from 18-20 that we could go undefeated in 21 and still be under .500 for the four year period.

You may want to just refrain from quoting or citing other posters.


And what's the point of pointing that out? What is the rationale? What exactly am I missing in that statement?
They went 18-0, but they'd still be under .500  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 4:22 pm : link
for Gettleman's 4 years.... means what exactly?

This shit is so stupid.
Jones has been a key reason the team hasn't been good. There are  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2021 4:23 pm : link
others reasons as well, like the GM who put a poor roster together, particularly on Offense and plopped a rookie QB into the middle of it.

Bill L. - landing on a turning aircraft carrier or something like that I recall?

Quote:

The detractors think that Jones was a key reason the team hasn't been good - which is why they beat each of these fucking threads to death with the nonsense.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Fields is definitely a better prospect  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2021 4:25 pm : link
In comment 15255100 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15255093 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15254985 UConn4523 said:


Quote:



Here's my angle here - Garrett. Fields is a more athletic Dak. So if you give him a better version of Dak - and Garrett did excellent work with Dak - things could be very interesting...



Personally i'm not doing anything for Jason Garrett - sink or swim time for him too. I think the Giants know he's gone after this year either by choice (HC offer if the Giants play well) or by being fired.



If Jones has a good season, do you still want Garrett gone? And then have a third OC for Jones?



Ig he has a good season, the Giants are winning. Garrett would be as good as gone anyway. We should resign ourselves to this being the last year of the Judge-Garrett team.


Agree. Good offensive season and Garrett's name will be called again to be a HC which he should take. Bad season and he's fired.
RE: They went 18-0, but they'd still be under .500  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 4:28 pm : link
In comment 15255187 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
for Gettleman's 4 years.... means what exactly?

This shit is so stupid.


They can't go 18-0. There are 17 games in the regular season (16 when I posted that months ago).

It's not my job to cut your food and chew it for you. If you don't understand what someone is saying, don't embellish it, throw it in their face later, and claim you hope for common ground.

If Jones has a great year in 21 you'll be the first guy killing me for it. Please.
RE: RE: They went 18-0, but they'd still be under .500  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 4:34 pm : link
In comment 15255196 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15255187 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


for Gettleman's 4 years.... means what exactly?

This shit is so stupid.



They can't go 18-0. There are 17 games in the regular season (16 when I posted that months ago).

It's not my job to cut your food and chew it for you. If you don't understand what someone is saying, don't embellish it, throw it in their face later, and claim you hope for common ground.

If Jones has a great year in 21 you'll be the first guy killing me for it. Please.


I'll have to get in a long line, I'm sure.
Here is my common ground because I think I see both sides here..  
Sean : 5/5/2021 5:28 pm : link
I do think Jones cost the Giants a win against Tampa last year. He missed some crucial throws and was late on the 2 point conversion. I also feel his fumble that led to a touchdown in Dallas was extremely costly, it changed the whole game. He needs to be better.

The Giants are doing what most teams do, load up the offense for their franchise QB. This year is all about clarity, and removing perceived excuses from the equation. Jones needs to prove he can be durable and lead this team to wins.

I was pleased with how Jones performed against the Eagles last year, especially the 2nd game. That is what a Jones led offense should look like - he made some great throws in that game, including a long run for a touchdown. That is what we need to see this year, that’s a player you can win with.

I don’t know if Jones is the guy yet, but I don’t know if he isn’t either. It’s time to see wins though. We’ll know by Thanksgiving how it’s trending.
RE: Here is my common ground because I think I see both sides here..  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 5:30 pm : link
In comment 15255299 Sean said:
Quote:
I do think Jones cost the Giants a win against Tampa last year. He missed some crucial throws and was late on the 2 point conversion. I also feel his fumble that led to a touchdown in Dallas was extremely costly, it changed the whole game. He needs to be better.

The Giants are doing what most teams do, load up the offense for their franchise QB. This year is all about clarity, and removing perceived excuses from the equation. Jones needs to prove he can be durable and lead this team to wins.

I was pleased with how Jones performed against the Eagles last year, especially the 2nd game. That is what a Jones led offense should look like - he made some great throws in that game, including a long run for a touchdown. That is what we need to see this year, that’s a player you can win with.

I don’t know if Jones is the guy yet, but I don’t know if he isn’t either. It’s time to see wins though. We’ll know by Thanksgiving how it’s trending.


That's in line with about 98% of the active posters here, probably.
RE: RE: RE: They went 18-0, but they'd still be under .500  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/5/2021 5:30 pm : link
In comment 15255208 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15255196 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15255187 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


for Gettleman's 4 years.... means what exactly?

This shit is so stupid.



They can't go 18-0. There are 17 games in the regular season (16 when I posted that months ago).

It's not my job to cut your food and chew it for you. If you don't understand what someone is saying, don't embellish it, throw it in their face later, and claim you hope for common ground.

If Jones has a great year in 21 you'll be the first guy killing me for it. Please.



I'll have to get in a long line, I'm sure.

You'll probably post a victory lap thread to cut the line, I'm sure.
I'm sure you'll have a nice long fictional story with all the details  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 5:31 pm : link
about it already dreamt up when/if it happens.
RE: I'm sure you'll have a nice long fictional story with all the details  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/5/2021 5:38 pm : link
In comment 15255311 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
about it already dreamt up when/if it happens.

I'm not the one who adds words and takes quotes out of context.

I linked to my reference, for better or worse. You should try that sometime.
RE: RE: Here is my common ground because I think I see both sides here..  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2021 5:40 pm : link
In comment 15255302 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15255299 Sean said:


Quote:


I do think Jones cost the Giants a win against Tampa last year. He missed some crucial throws and was late on the 2 point conversion. I also feel his fumble that led to a touchdown in Dallas was extremely costly, it changed the whole game. He needs to be better.

The Giants are doing what most teams do, load up the offense for their franchise QB. This year is all about clarity, and removing perceived excuses from the equation. Jones needs to prove he can be durable and lead this team to wins.

I was pleased with how Jones performed against the Eagles last year, especially the 2nd game. That is what a Jones led offense should look like - he made some great throws in that game, including a long run for a touchdown. That is what we need to see this year, that’s a player you can win with.

I don’t know if Jones is the guy yet, but I don’t know if he isn’t either. It’s time to see wins though. We’ll know by Thanksgiving how it’s trending.



That's in line with about 98% of the active posters here, probably.


So then why do you all lose your patience so much with such a small minority? Just simply converse with this huge majority and have the type of threads you want.

Is the goal to have 100% of the board agree for some reason on this or quite frankly any other topic?
It seems like only yesterday...  
bw in dc : 5/5/2021 5:41 pm : link
Britt wrote his passionate missive offering an olive branch to posters who don't agree with him.

RE: RE: I'm sure you'll have a nice long fictional story with all the details  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 5:43 pm : link
In comment 15255322 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15255311 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


about it already dreamt up when/if it happens.


I'm not the one who adds words and takes quotes out of context.

I linked to my reference, for better or worse. You should try that sometime.


You linked a thread which went against basically everything you said it contained.

If it were me, having said all that and digging up the thread and reading it, I might have said "whoops, I may have misremembered this". But that you bullheadedly doubled down and posted it (maybe hoping that nobody would actually look at it? Not sure) basically shows you to be a disingenuous dude incapable of admitting you were wrong.

So whatever. Terps actually said something very similar to what I said he did. He's not denying he said it. I'm not misremembering that. What you posted however? Pure fiction. And what's even worse, it had NOTHING to do with the discussion. I'm not even sure why you came in hot with that. To discredit me, I guess? Well who looks discredited now?
Some are incapable of accepting an olive branch.  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 5:44 pm : link
They'd rather die on a hill than concede an inch.

Screw em'.
Britt  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 5:50 pm : link
You completely failed to understand what I said, and you twisted it around.

You're no more interested in common ground than anyone else. The only difference between you and me is that you've been wrong more often than I've been.

And in a few months when you're wrong again, you'll probably just say you're a better fan than me, and say I'd rather be right than see the Giants win, and blah blah.

I don't give a shit about what anyone is rooting for. It's a Giants board...that we're all rooting for the Giants is a given.

Rooting for the Giants shouldn't interfere with our perceptions of reality...but it's amazing how often it does.
See? Right and wrong. That's what matters to you.  
Britt in VA : 5/5/2021 5:52 pm : link
Happy Cinco De Mayo!

Adios.
RE: RE: RE: I'm sure you'll have a nice long fictional story with all the details  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/5/2021 5:56 pm : link
In comment 15255331 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15255322 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15255311 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


about it already dreamt up when/if it happens.


I'm not the one who adds words and takes quotes out of context.

I linked to my reference, for better or worse. You should try that sometime.



You linked a thread which went against basically everything you said it contained.

If it were me, having said all that and digging up the thread and reading it, I might have said "whoops, I may have misremembered this". But that you bullheadedly doubled down and posted it (maybe hoping that nobody would actually look at it? Not sure) basically shows you to be a disingenuous dude incapable of admitting you were wrong.

So whatever. Terps actually said something very similar to what I said he did. He's not denying he said it. I'm not misremembering that. What you posted however? Pure fiction. And what's even worse, it had NOTHING to do with the discussion. I'm not even sure why you came in hot with that. To discredit me, I guess? Well who looks discredited now?

If it was you?

You have taken quotes out of context and added words to people's statements within this thread. I don't think you get to take the high road here, champ. We all do know how much you like to pretend to be holier than thou, though.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Its also worth mentioning  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/5/2021 5:57 pm : link
In comment 15254947 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15254842 FatMan in Charlotte said:



But evaluating QBs is very difficult. On the other hand, since you are keeping score, I was pretty spot on with Allen and Herbert. And said Haskins was not going to work in the NFL.

Regardless, I stand by my Fields view and challenge anyone to say he's not a better prospect at this point than Jones was. I believe Sy graded Fields higher than Jones...


I literally just posted like last week what you said about Allen on here few days before that draft. You were off of him at our pick. So I"m not sure how you can claim you were right about him, if you wouldn't have drafted him. You were right about Haskins that's for sure. I saw problems that could get fixed and why I liked him until the character concerns all came out and why I soured on him late in the process. At this point, you'll sing the praises of anyone coming out as long as it's not DJ so I'm not sure Herbert is some revelation. You would have replaced him with anyone that wasn't named Mac this year and I think you are going to see how silly that looks here soon.
.  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 5:57 pm : link
Not making shit up because I want to be the top superfan is important to me, yeah.
RE: Some are incapable of accepting an olive branch.  
Thegratefulhead : 5/5/2021 5:59 pm : link
In comment 15255334 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
They'd rather die on a hill than concede an inch.

Screw em'.
The ad hominem attacks they are the target of have turned them into trolls. The subtly of their work is often impressive. BW made me so fucking mad a couple of years ago that I resorted to name calling. I really try to avoid that unless provoked. He didn't deserve it.

My guess is that the negative nannies would not be so negative if we didn't attack them so much, in my opinion. People get too personal.
grateful  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 6:04 pm : link
I'm not negative. The team actually has sucked. Jones actually has sucked. That's the real world; it isn't negativity.

If he comes out and leads the Giants to a great season and you want to throw it in my face, have at it. But where we stand right now is that Jones has given the Giants 7 good starts out of a possible 32. That's where things actually stand in the real world. It isn't negativity.
RE: RE: Some are incapable of accepting an olive branch.  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2021 6:11 pm : link
In comment 15255354 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15255334 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


They'd rather die on a hill than concede an inch.

Screw em'.

The ad hominem attacks they are the target of have turned them into trolls. The subtly of their work is often impressive. BW made me so fucking mad a couple of years ago that I resorted to name calling. I really try to avoid that unless provoked. He didn't deserve it.

My guess is that the negative nannies would not be so negative if we didn't attack them so much, in my opinion. People get too personal.


Quite the therapy session here. What's your hourly rate?
RE: grateful  
Thegratefulhead : 5/5/2021 6:23 pm : link
In comment 15255358 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I'm not negative. The team actually has sucked. Jones actually has sucked. That's the real world; it isn't negativity.

If he comes out and leads the Giants to a great season and you want to throw it in my face, have at it. But where we stand right now is that Jones has given the Giants 7 good starts out of a possible 32. That's where things actually stand in the real world. It isn't negativity.
It is reality. This is also a Giants fan board. Coming into every thread to say it multiple times is negative.

Jones also had a decent rookie year with little talent. I use an eraser for 2020. Jones might be hot dog shit. My gut tells me 30 TDs and AY/A above league average in 2021. Judge spent the year with him and did not draft Fields or Mac.

I think Judge is a genius or near it based on how he speaks. That doesn't necessarily make him a great coach. I have been surrounded by brilliance in my life and some them could not manage 3 people. I think we may have stepped in dogshit landing him. I am not sure yet. Results do matter.

I just do see a reason you had to dig in so deep the kid is garbage. Other people might not see it, but I know you are one of the more intelligent posters on this board. In a similar way that Judge and DG seem to be collaborating, I think Judge and Jones may well be a good match. I believe him when he says Jones has the respect of the building, both players and coaches.

Rodgers has as much talent as I have ever seen in a QB. It is possible that he hasn't won as many Superbowls as he could have because he is also a dick. The QB has to lead the team. The fact they see the intangibles to work with in Jones is no small thing.

I think it is worth giving the kid our support for 2021. I think most of this board does too. I respect your right to your opinion though. I don't like the way people speak to you.
Terps..  
Sean : 5/5/2021 6:26 pm : link
After the first Philly game you said the Giants were at an inflection point. It seems you’ve backed off that stance, but I think you were right.
RE: Terps..  
Go Terps : 5/5/2021 7:24 pm : link
In comment 15255387 Sean said:
Quote:
After the first Philly game you said the Giants were at an inflection point. It seems you’ve backed off that stance, but I think you were right.


I did, and I have. I thought at the time that Jones maybe turned a corner, but that was wishful thinking.

I do think the Giants turned a corner bringing in Judge and apparently changing the way they operate. That's very positive, and I do think it will yield good things. Just not in 2021. The most important player on the team was acquired through the old ways, before Judge.

I've said before that I think (emphasis on think before people freak out) that Judge knows his job is secure and is waiting this out. Jones isn't his guy, and he (Judge) just got a lot of ammo to get his guy in 2022.

In the macro sense I'm optimistic.
RE: Jones has been a key reason the team hasn't been good. There are  
Bill L : 5/5/2021 7:28 pm : link
In comment 15255189 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
others reasons as well, like the GM who put a poor roster together, particularly on Offense and plopped a rookie QB into the middle of it.

Bill L. - landing on a turning aircraft carrier or something like that I recall?



Quote:



The detractors think that Jones was a key reason the team hasn't been good - which is why they beat each of these fucking threads to death with the nonsense.

the reference was something I heard about the battle of midway. A Japanese aircraft carrier could not help because apparently it takes a decade to turn around. Not sure really how long. Point being DG inherited a ship going in the wrong direction and it takes a lot longer than you might think to turn it around.
RE: RE: Jones has been a key reason the team hasn't been good. There are  
Scooter185 : 5/5/2021 8:04 pm : link
In comment 15255457 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15255189 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


others reasons as well, like the GM who put a poor roster together, particularly on Offense and plopped a rookie QB into the middle of it.

Bill L. - landing on a turning aircraft carrier or something like that I recall?



Quote:



The detractors think that Jones was a key reason the team hasn't been good - which is why they beat each of these fucking threads to death with the nonsense.



the reference was something I heard about the battle of midway. A Japanese aircraft carrier could not help because apparently it takes a decade to turn around. Not sure really how long. Point being DG inherited a ship going in the wrong direction and it takes a lot longer than you might think to turn it around.


DG didn't even attempt to turn it around in 18. If anything he went full speed ahead in the direction they were going.
Jones best games last season..  
Sean : 5/5/2021 8:13 pm : link
were the home games against Philly & Dallas. That is what we will see more if hopefully.
Bill  
Bill2 : 5/5/2021 8:16 pm : link
The Akagi ( Nagumo's flagship and a carrier that damaged us at Hawaii and the Coral Sea) took a near miss from the first wave of dive bombers that jammed her rudder and made it impossible to manuever or escape.

Lt. Richard Best led the second wave. Known for diving at very high speeds and very steep angles, he put a 1000 pound bomb from such a short distance that it went straight to the fuel and munitions storage section before exploding.

That acknowledged, it would take a fully functional Nimitz fifty miles to stop if you shut off the power right now.

Not sure which example is the metaphor you were diving or driving for.
RE: Bill  
Scooter185 : 5/5/2021 8:20 pm : link
In comment 15255531 Bill2 said:
Quote:
The Akagi ( Nagumo's flagship and a carrier that damaged us at Hawaii and the Coral Sea) took a near miss from the first wave of dive bombers that jammed her rudder and made it impossible to manuever or escape.

Lt. Richard Best led the second wave. Known for diving at very high speeds and very steep angles, he put a 1000 pound bomb from such a short distance that it went straight to the fuel and munitions storage section before exploding.

That acknowledged, it would take a fully functional Nimitz fifty miles to stop if you shut off the power right now.

Not sure which example is the metaphor you were diving or driving for.


After that shot, if he didn't go by the nickname Dick, he should have 😂
Or maybe your metaphor would be Nelson  
Bill2 : 5/5/2021 8:32 pm : link
He handed out devastating losses to the Dutch, the French and the Spanish by bringing his HMS Victory into the middle of the boring and predictable lines of the opposition.

They, of course, universally put him down as an inferior Admiral who did not fight like a gentleman in long distance parallel lines but rather sought to destroy by crossing the T of their ships lines and destroying them in detail from all sides and at close quarters. ( its hard to get your ships lined up one after the other in neat formation...takes a high bred Admiral not like a small common man)

The fact that none of those ever fielded a Naval challenge to England ever again seems lost.

Like some posting styles, Nelson mastered firing at 3x the speed of the opponent.

Or perhaps you could mix your metaphors and disable their rudders while firing 3x faster?
Scooter  
Bill2 : 5/5/2021 8:35 pm : link
And he was called Dick.

He went up another time at Midway and sunk another carrier. The only man to take down two carriers with over 50 planes apiecen in one day.

He also wrecked his lungs at Midway and never flew combat ever again.
Seriously  
Bill2 : 5/5/2021 8:40 pm : link
The French claimed after Trafalgar that Nelson was not a good Admiral. After all:

"He likes to create chaos"
I was watching "Midway"...  
bw in dc : 5/5/2021 8:41 pm : link
today, actually, and they center a lot of that movie around Dick Best.
I normally don't like  
Bill2 : 5/5/2021 8:46 pm : link
Hollywood dramatizations of actual history because the distortions are annoying and they reduce complexity to simple morality tales.

But Midway was well done.

One more movie that shows that Woody Harrelson had chops he wasn't showing on the set of Cheers.
I probably botched it every way you could  
Bill L : 5/5/2021 9:25 pm : link
I just meant that a big ship doesn’t turn around all that quickly.
RE: Scooter  
Scooter185 : 5/5/2021 9:28 pm : link
In comment 15255559 Bill2 said:
Quote:
And he was called Dick.

He went up another time at Midway and sunk another carrier. The only man to take down two carriers with over 50 planes apiecen in one day.

He also wrecked his lungs at Midway and never flew combat ever again.


I think every one with the name Richard went by Dick back then lol. Winters comes to mind as well. Also, my father was born in '42 and goes by Dick. I however do not
RE: I probably botched it every way you could  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2021 9:52 pm : link
In comment 15255661 Bill L said:
Quote:
I just meant that a big ship doesn’t turn around all that quickly.


I knew what you meant Bill and I agree.

Turnarounds do take time. They take even longer when root problems are ignored or underestimated from the outset, or a well designed rebuilding plan is not devised only leading to further desperate moves to try and make up for earlier mistakes or lost time. You know the

Oh, and the Akagi was never at Coral Sea. But she and Nagumo sure got their asses kicked in at Midway because he ignored certain warning signs and didn’t have the same level of intelligence that his opponents had...
good catch  
Bill2 : 5/5/2021 10:18 pm : link
I went in a straight line and assumed Pearl, Dutch East Indies, Indian Ocean, then Coral Sea then the Midway campaign.

She was being retrofit/training during the Battle of Coral Sea.

Quite the thread...  
bw in dc : 5/5/2021 10:21 pm : link
from the Battle of Daniel Jones to the Battle of Midway.

;)
.  
Bill2 : 5/5/2021 10:24 pm : link
we could have picked a traditional battleship only to wake up to a future based on new carriers.
Maybe Jones is just unconventional...  
Brown_Hornet : 5/5/2021 10:29 pm : link
...maybe he has not yet begun to fight?

The Ser

oops...  
Brown_Hornet : 5/5/2021 10:32 pm : link
...the Serapis was a better ship.
The Bonhomme Richard was done...defeated...not up to the test of the day.

Jones decided to not give up. Jones decided that with the trust of his team that he had all he needed.

Coral Sea included Japanese Carriers  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2021 10:43 pm : link
Shoho which was sunk, and Zuikaku and Shokaku which took enough hits and/or lost enough aircraft that they couldn’t join the fight at Midway.

So Yamamoto decided his 4 other largest carriers from the Kido Butai would be able to do the job at Midway. While the Japanese had a superior number of carriers to the US when the war started, this already showed the weaknesses they had in replacing and refitting their battle units from losses.

Midway’s losses basically crippled them for good.
RE: Quite the thread...  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2021 10:48 pm : link
In comment 15255809 bw in dc said:
Quote:
from the Battle of Daniel Jones to the Battle of Midway.

;)


Well, maybe Jones will just happen to catch his opponents flat-footed in 2021. Maybe he will surprise them and throw a few bombs down their throats when they least expect it.

And turn the tide on his career...
And Gettleman...  
bw in dc : 5/5/2021 10:53 pm : link
will be hailed as the Joseph Rochefort of One Giants Way...
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