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Giants coach Joe Judge said most other NFL players would have missed more than only two games. “Look, Daniel is the last guy that’s going to use anything as an excuse,” Judge, who rarely talks about injuries, told The Michael Kay Show on Monday. What I would say about the injury last year is it was much more serious than maybe people thought on the outside. I would say probably 90 percent of players in the league who would have had that injury, including quarterbacks, would have been on IR for the remainder of the year. That’s just the reality of it. It was much more severe than maybe he allowed people to know or the information that was put out there, and we’re going to protect our players by not disclosing everything about their injuries to be honest with you. He fought through a lot of things. He earned a lot of people’s respect.” |
Like with Daniel Jones himself, with this or any other team, we have Schrodinger's cat.
There are other posters on this site that think Jones is garbage. Some of them do the same thing you do. And you all post so much, and quote each other so much, these threads are unreadable for anyone with a different view. I know this is “Both sides” in your lexicon, but if you can’t see that 80% of these threads are the same posters making the same point on every thread, I don’t know what to tell you.
You are not going to convince Terps that Jones is a good QB. He is not going to convince you Jones is a bust. Yet your back and forth is impossible to see past because you both seem to crave the other’s approval. It’s really fucking boring.
You and Terps are Fox Nexs and MSNBC. The two screaming extremes on the fringes. Unfortunately your ridiculous squabbles are destroying actual discussion for the rest of us.
I’ve said my peace and I am done with this shit. Jones is a third rail topic I no longer want to discuss on this board because intelligent conversation on the topic is dead here.
Brilliant!
I think one of the first virtues that is generally sacrificed to make a point is compassion.
So, here's to us still being here in 2033 and Terps still hating on DJ! :)
I point out the complete and utter contradictory statements that Terps makes when it comes to Jones. He says things like “let’s go get Matt Stafford” or “Jones isn’t Phil Simms.”
He’s comparing apples to oranges, and seemingly doesn’t realize this.
You guys think I’m some homer loser who doesn’t criticize and doesn’t call a situation for what it is. I’ve said this a million fucking time dude: this is the year for Jones and this is the year for the team to show major improvement, and if they don’t, both him and DG are likely gone.
I don’t know how many times I have to say that to make you guys realize that I’m not some “other end of the spectrum” poster.
I’m a realist. I get the fact that it takes some time to develop a quarterback. I lived through Eli Manning and watched Phil Simms as a kid. Just because I want to give Jones another year to grow doesn’t make me a “everything is awesome!” Fan. It makes me a fan who likes where the team is going, likes Jones, thinks it’s going to work out, but also realizes that he likely has 1 more year to get it done.
All you guys are just saying things over and over again that aren’t accurate, and it’s really fucking annoying.
Third year in the league
Second year in the same system
Likely much improved surrounding talent
Changes to the fifth year option make it more onerous on teams. Previously it was guaranteed only in case of injury. Now, it is fully guaranteed. The amount is not cheap and a rookie QB and a vet backup combined will likely take up less cap room than the option. We have to decide on the option around the time of next year’s draft. If Jones doesn’t make substantial progress, I can’t see how you can risk that salary commitment. Bears declined it with Mitch Trubisky, so it would not be unheard of.
If good football is all there is to enjoy, why would anyone watch a team that loses? Why wouldn't people flock from team to team, cheering for KC one year, TB the next and so on?
There's more to root for than "good football". There's rooting for players. For coaches. For the team as a whole.
And frankly, if I get to a point where I detest something so much that I'm posting daily about how bad the team I'm rooting for is. That I tell people everyday how bad others are at doing their jobs. That I rant daily about mistakes in the past. I will cease to be a fan and no longer follow that team.
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What are some of the reasons this year is likely make or break for Jones?
Third year in the league
Second year in the same system
Likely much improved surrounding talent
Are those reasons you believe his job is on the line, or reasons you believe he will play well?
People need to be realistic when it comes to franchise quarterbacks. I mean literally - the majority of 12-15 year quarterbacks in the NFL all struggle at first, sometimes worse than Jones has.
Also - the fact that Terps sits there and says things like “there’s been nothing to enjoy at this point” is utter bullshit too.
He’s had some awesome games in both seasons.
He broke Giants records as a rookie.
He played very well down the stretch in 2020, the team went 4-2 in his final 6 starts and he cut WAY down on the turnovers. Perhaps they have a shot at Arizona if he was healthy. I guess we won’t ever know that.
But sure, let’s act like Daniel Jones has been abysmal for the Giants. The TEAM around him got better in 2020, and wouldn’t you know it, they played better down the stretch, including him.
But yup, there has been “nothing to enjoy” with our QB.
I’m going to enjoy Jones growth in 2021. Go root for the Bears or watch Justin Herbert played instead and have a good cry. Giants are going to be good in 2021, and Jones is going to improve. That’s my opinion, that’s what I think, and there’s plenty of anecdotal evidence to support that it’s not some batshit crazy theory.
Because he’s completely misinterpreting what I’m saying, that’s why.
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In comment 15252803 christian said:
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What are some of the reasons this year is likely make or break for Jones?
Third year in the league
Second year in the same system
Likely much improved surrounding talent
Are those reasons you believe his job is on the line, or reasons you believe he will play well?
Those are reasons to look for significant enough improvement to continue with him.
Shurmur especially for me was something that seemed to go on longer than it did because my mindset had concluded that a change was necessary which made it very tough to get much enjoyment out of anything that normally would result in pleasure. To be clear, I'm speaking about the second half of his second season.
In Ryan’s world there are two sets of people. People who agree with him, and idiots who are simply wrong. He can’t and won’t move off that and it is silly to try.
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Post had wisdom to glean, but instead was immediately refuted as "wrong".
In Ryan’s world there are two sets of people. People who agree with him, and idiots who are simply wrong. He can’t and won’t move off that and it is silly to try.
Applicable to only Ryan.
For some reason, you guys take that the wrong way. I’m not sure why. It’s right there, in writing, every time I say it.
For some reason, you guys take that the wrong way. I’m not sure why. It’s right there, in writing, every time I say it.
Why is this the year for Jones?
Those are reasons to look for significant enough improvement to continue with him.
Respectfully you’re answering a different question than what I am asking. I’m asking why this year is such a pivotal year for Jones.
I have enjoyed the previous 3 seasons. I didn't care so much for the inevitable endings, but that doesn't stop the enjoyment of the journey.
A football season starts in September, not January.
I'd prefer a few more ups in 2021, but that does not mean that there weren't any during the season(s).
I find the coach and the players that DG has brought in to be easy to root for.
I'd rather watch the Giants lose a nail biter to the (pick a team) than watch any other game that Sunday.
I will enjoy the game.
Most of us that have children that play football will have to endure bad teams. Those are the games that I wish that I could see again.
Football is so much more than what goes on the back of a football card or what happens in January/February.
That said, here's to the Giants ascending in 2021!
I have enjoyed the previous 3 seasons. I didn't care so much for the inevitable endings, but that doesn't stop the enjoyment of the journey.
A football season starts in September, not January.
I'd prefer a few more ups in 2021, but that does not mean that there weren't any during the season(s).
I find the coach and the players that DG has brought in to be easy to root for.
I'd rather watch the Giants lose a nail biter to the (pick a team) than watch any other game that Sunday.
I will enjoy the game.
Most of us that have children that play football will have to endure bad teams. Those are the games that I wish that I could see again.
Football is so much more than what goes on the back of a football card or what happens in January/February.
That said, here's to the Giants ascending in 2021!
Awesome post! Probably my favorite in a while. I'm just sorry more people don't feel the way that you do.
For some reason, you guys take that the wrong way. I’m not sure why. It’s right there, in writing, every time I say it.
Again, you are missing the point completely.
You believe this is a make or break year for Jones. Other posters believe (rightly or wrongly because it is an OPINION) that he is not the right guy. They see things in his game that make them believe he isn’t a franchise QB and sticking with him is throwing away another year. That opinion - like it or not - is just as valid as yours. They are not “ wrong” because they see it differently than you. They don’t say that because they hate Jones and hate the Giants. They say it because it is what their eyes tell them.
I can’t spell that out any more directly than that.
So now post “wrong” and tell me I am an idiot.
Daniel Jones is a great kid and deserves much praise for his fight, intensity and character. Judge's statement echoes this, but it also echoes the fact that perhaps Jones should not have played against Arizona. Do we win that game if McCoy plays? Not sure. But it raises the question so not sure it was the best thing to say.
The Giants have drafted and signed premium players on offense and put together a top tier defense over the past two years, passing over both Justin Herbert and Justin Fields, all to demonstrate their strong commitment to him. As constructed, this team is now a playoff team if it gets consistent quality quarterback play.
So development time is over. Excuse time is over. If Jones leads us to the playoffs, he should be extended. If not, the Giants should move on. And I applaud the Giants for acquiring draft capital next year to ensure that if he is not the guy, they are prepared to do so.
I have enjoyed the previous 3 seasons. I didn't care so much for the inevitable endings, but that doesn't stop the enjoyment of the journey.
A football season starts in September, not January.
I'd prefer a few more ups in 2021, but that does not mean that there weren't any during the season(s).
I find the coach and the players that DG has brought in to be easy to root for.
I'd rather watch the Giants lose a nail biter to the (pick a team) than watch any other game that Sunday.
I will enjoy the game.
Most of us that have children that play football will have to endure bad teams. Those are the games that I wish that I could see again.
Football is so much more than what goes on the back of a football card or what happens in January/February.
That said, here's to the Giants ascending in 2021!
Love it!! My son played on a Pee-Wee team that didn't win a game. Yet what we remember most about that season was that he scored TD's on a kick return, an INT and a pass. We remember the players and their families, some of whom we still hang out with.
I'm like Bill - I enjoyed last season a lot. We had hope. I did a weekly thing with a couple of friends that kept us involved. I enjoy rooting for the players and most of them are really likeable to root for.
Why do you believe the Giants would/should move on from Jones after this year of he doesn’t improve?
At the end of the day, EVERYONE - I'd bet even Go Terps - would want to see DJ become a great QB. The question right now is if he's on track to do so.
At worst, that question is up in the air. Coming in and pretending like anyone who questions whether Jones will actually be a good starter for NYG has a "bullshit opinion" is asinine.
Trading for Chicago's first rounder put that notion to bed. Either he becomes a productive quarterback for the first time in...ever...or it's good night the lights on the three year mistake.
I understand this point. There is logic to it. But Mara is a very patient, stubborn man. And I can't help but think he really wants to give Jones every chance to succeed/fail. So I still think Jones could get '22 as well to show if he has the right stuff.
Further, 2022 is not shaping up to be a bumper crop for QB prospects. Outside of Sam Howell it's an uninspiring class. Not a lot of dual threats. A lot of average looking pocket passers with some mobility. So thinking Jones's replacement could be just a year away - if he is poor again - is really wishful thinking right now.
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Are those reasons you believe his job is on the line, or reasons you believe he will play well?
Those are reasons to look for significant enough improvement to continue with him.
Respectfully you’re answering a different question than what I am asking. I’m asking why this year is such a pivotal year for Jones.
It is a pivotal year because of those I listed.
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do you mean why will Jones succeed this year? Or why is this “the year” before Giants move on if he doesn’t improve?
Why do you believe the Giants would/should move on from Jones after this year of he doesn’t improve?
Because to be honest I think 3 years is sufficient. He’s had his poor play and bumps the first few seasons, he’s had two coaches, two systems. With the investments we’ve made along OL, weapons, and second year in the system, now is the time. In today’s NFL I think 3 full years is what you need (with the correct stuff around him) to evaluate a franchise QB. Obviously if the guy is just completely and utterly pathetic and or isn’t putting in the work in, or there’s something else just not clicking, you move on. But for someone like Jones, 3 years is just about what was necessary for NYG to A) get rid of Shurmur and cut the prior players who were dragging the locker room down B) hire a new coach, “start over” and C) get Jones plenty of experience before “the year” where he should be starting to put everything together.
If Jones can’t succeed with what he’s been given now, it will be time to find a new solution.
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Before this weekend I was worried he'd get both 2021 and 2022 to prove he's something other than what he's shown in five years of college and pro football.
Trading for Chicago's first rounder put that notion to bed. Either he becomes a productive quarterback for the first time in...ever...or it's good night the lights on the three year mistake.
I understand this point. There is logic to it. But Mara is a very patient, stubborn man. And I can't help but think he really wants to give Jones every chance to succeed/fail. So I still think Jones could get '22 as well to show if he has the right stuff.
Further, 2022 is not shaping up to be a bumper crop for QB prospects. Outside of Sam Howell it's an uninspiring class. Not a lot of dual threats. A lot of average looking pocket passers with some mobility. So thinking Jones's replacement could be just a year away - if he is poor again - is really wishful thinking right now.
I would have agreed with you before the draft, but the draft capital will give them the opportunity to move to the top of the draft. If Jones does not produce and someone is worth taking, the Giants must do so. They simply can't pass over a Herbert or Fields next year. And though they may extend Jones as well given Mara's sense of loyalty, it would not be a sensible use of cap resources.
Never thought I’d see the day where PFF liked the Giants QB more than Giants fans did.
I think you're talking about a very small minority of very negative, loud and persistent posters.
My guess is a majority of Giants fans know that D. Jones shouldn't be judged based on '20 (for a long list of legitimate reasons) and that this is the year he will (hopefully) take a major leap forward.
First off, Ben and Rivers actually didn't take 2-3 years to develop.
Second off, if you've been in the league 12-15 years, you were a rookie a long time ago in a completely different NFL. NFL offense have taken a lot from the college game, and the ramp up type for QBs is much shorter than it used to be (as is their leash). I think 3 years is an acceptable amount of time, but if you don't see improvement, it makes sense to cut bait --- especially when you have 2 1st round picks the following year, which is ample capital to move up and grab a QB if needed.
It's pretty obvious why this is a make or break year for the Jones. It's because there is a great opportunity to move on if he ISN'T the answer/doesn't make a jump this year. The opportunity cost of giving a fourth year to wait it out is too large.
Personally though, I don't see how jones can NOT be better. Sure, the OL didn't have any players added to it, but you'd expect some growth from Gates, Lemiuex, and Thomas at the very least, and also would hope the line would gel after playing together for a year.
Add in a healthy Saquon, Golladay, Toney, and to a lesser extent, Ross (need to respect the deep game), and you have an offense which has the pieces to be in the top 3rd of the league if Jones can put it together.
I am actually pretty hopeful that Jones will improve this year. I just hope he improves enough to show he's the long term answer. Having said all that, he unequivocally has not shown enough to lay this debate to rest up to this point. He hasn't been a top 15 QB over the last 2 years, and it doesn't seem very disputable.
Off the top of my head:
Mahomes, Jackson, Brady, Herbet, Wilson, Herbert, Murray, Cousins, Ryan, Mayfield, Stafford, Rodgers, Tannehill, Allen, Rivers, Carr, Brees, Burrow, hell even Garrapalo have played better than him over the last 2 years. Other than Garrapalo, can anyone dispute those QBs have been better than Jones?
Sure, you have some legends on that list, but you also have young guys who have shown way more (Herbert, Murray, Burrow, Allen, Jackson). How can people sit there and say it's unfair to have questions about Jones viability when he lags behind all the young QBs in that list I came up with in five seconds?
People need to stop acting like it's unfair to not be sold on Jones.
Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?
Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
Daniel Jones is a great kid and deserves much praise for his fight, intensity and character. Judge's statement echoes this, but it also echoes the fact that perhaps Jones should not have played against Arizona. Do we win that game if McCoy plays? Not sure. But it raises the question so not sure it was the best thing to say.
The Giants have drafted and signed premium players on offense and put together a top tier defense over the past two years, passing over both Justin Herbert and Justin Fields, all to demonstrate their strong commitment to him. As constructed, this team is now a playoff team if it gets consistent quality quarterback play.
So development time is over. Excuse time is over. If Jones leads us to the playoffs, he should be extended. If not, the Giants should move on. And I applaud the Giants for acquiring draft capital next year to ensure that if he is not the guy, they are prepared to do so.
This is the good post.
And christian, Mike includes some of the reasons you are inquiring about imv...
The thing is, most of D. Jones defenders aren't trying to say that they KNOW for sure he's going to be our franchise QB beyond '21. We're just saying that he shouldn't be written off bc of '20 and deserves this season with a semi normal training camp with some actual NFL weapons, etc. Then he can be judged.
Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?
Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
But yeah, I agree, it isn't the Supreme Court, it's a Giants message board. That's why I think it's silly that people are acting like those who aren't bought in on Jones are "bad fans", or don't have valid opinions.
There's a debate to be had about whether people think he can make a leap, but no "side" is inherently wrong or flawed. I do think people have blind faith though (and it's the same people telling others they're bad fans, or think people are rooting for Jones to fail just to pat themselves on the back).
This isn't a perfect 1:1 example, but I absolutely hated the OBJ pick. I wanted Zach Martin. In retrospect, the team would be better with Zach Martin. But when OBJ was all pro and the best WR in Giants history for a period of time, I enjoyed it and rooted my ass off for him. I was super stoked to be totally wrong. When it all went south, I didn't pat myself on the back and say I was right all along -- I was instead disappointed the full trajectory of his career didn't manifest itself.
People forget sometimes that we are all Giants fans and all we want is to see the team win. We might have different opinions about how to get there, but nobody will be pissed if Jones shuts up the doubters and blossoms into an awesome QB.
And coach seemed to ignore that he played poorly before the injury. Last year is water under the bridge. DJ has been given a full slate of weapons, so let's see what he can do with them.
First off, Ben and Rivers actually didn't take 2-3 years to develop.
Oh really? Phil Rivers played football for his first two seasons in the league? When did that happen? He sat on the bench for two years.
Ben didn't need time to develop? His third year in the league was actually worse than his first two, he threw 23 picks in his third season. His 4th year is when he started to take off. And also, the "team" was very good his first few seasons, he wasn't asked to do much at all except hand the ball off. He threw for 2600 and 2300 yards his first two seasons.
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There have been a lot of these threads repeating the same argument ad nauseum.
Ask yourself, did you really need to come into a thread where the coach was complimenting the kid's toughness in playing through serious injury just to shit on him yet again? Can people just have one f-cking thread where they can compliment the guy and share optimism? Just one?
Was it really necessary? What did it accomplish besides another argument of the exact same thing? Do you think we don't know your opinion on the guy at this point?
I don't know if you were talking to me, but I posted pretty early in this thread and praised Jones toughness and said this made me feel better about his play last year (though people did raise a good point that if he was that hurt, he shouldn't have been out there).
But yeah, I agree, it isn't the Supreme Court, it's a Giants message board. That's why I think it's silly that people are acting like those who aren't bought in on Jones are "bad fans", or don't have valid opinions.
There's a debate to be had about whether people think he can make a leap, but no "side" is inherently wrong or flawed. I do think people have blind faith though (and it's the same people telling others they're bad fans, or think people are rooting for Jones to fail just to pat themselves on the back).
This isn't a perfect 1:1 example, but I absolutely hated the OBJ pick. I wanted Zach Martin. In retrospect, the team would be better with Zach Martin. But when OBJ was all pro and the best WR in Giants history for a period of time, I enjoyed it and rooted my ass off for him. I was super stoked to be totally wrong. When it all went south, I didn't pat myself on the back and say I was right all along -- I was instead disappointed the full trajectory of his career didn't manifest itself.
People forget sometimes that we are all Giants fans and all we want is to see the team win. We might have different opinions about how to get there, but nobody will be pissed if Jones shuts up the doubters and blossoms into an awesome QB.
It wasn't to anybody in particular, just in general. There are places to criticize Jones, plenty of threads. I just don't think this is a good one to rehash it, and don't understand why every thread on Jones has to turn in to this.
Maybe we need a dedicated thread to bitch about Jones.
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who have been in the league 12-15 years taking time to develop.
First off, Ben and Rivers actually didn't take 2-3 years to develop.
Oh really? Phil Rivers played football for his first two seasons in the league? When did that happen? He sat on the bench for two years.
Ben didn't need time to develop? His third year in the league was actually worse than his first two, he threw 23 picks in his third season. His 4th year is when he started to take off. And also, the "team" was very good his first few seasons, he wasn't asked to do much at all except hand the ball off. He threw for 2600 and 2300 yards his first two seasons.
Plus, let's look at Eli; in 05-07 he threw 55 interceptions and for a good portion of the 07 Super Bowl season people still wanted to fire him.