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Giants coach Joe Judge said most other NFL players would have missed more than only two games. “Look, Daniel is the last guy that’s going to use anything as an excuse,” Judge, who rarely talks about injuries, told The Michael Kay Show on Monday. What I would say about the injury last year is it was much more serious than maybe people thought on the outside. I would say probably 90 percent of players in the league who would have had that injury, including quarterbacks, would have been on IR for the remainder of the year. That’s just the reality of it. It was much more severe than maybe he allowed people to know or the information that was put out there, and we’re going to protect our players by not disclosing everything about their injuries to be honest with you. He fought through a lot of things. He earned a lot of people’s respect.” |
That's all I'm saying.
Conversely; a great quarterback can't always overcome deficiencies in their team; in the last Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes had a leaky offensive line and was battered and hurried by the Tampa Bay defense all day.
Not one statistic has been recorded for the 2021 season.
Also, not one statistic recorded prior to the 2021 NFL season will have an affect on how DJ plays in 2021.
No shutting down a debate or opinion, just pointing out that Giants fans will need to be rooting for Daniel Jones to succeed if they will also be rooting for the Giants to win football games.
College stats for every QB drafted in round 1 since 2011:
That's a great sheet, but quite a few QBs on there were drafted after round 1.
Conversely; a great quarterback can't always overcome deficiencies in their team; in the last Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes had a leaky offensive line and was battered and hurried by the Tampa Bay defense all day.
While of course, this is true.
But do you think a better strategy is to just settle with a lesser QB than you would like and extend him a longer term contract because Brad Johnson was able to win a ring?
God, the point is so obvious:
-Jones didn't have a very good collegiate career, certainly not elite
-Jones has not really had a very good NFL career so far either.
-Based on both of the above, there is reason for concern.
This isn't some "This chart here is a flaws predictor of which QBs are better than others!" thing.
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I've covered this already...
College stats for every QB drafted in round 1 since 2011:
That's a great sheet, but quite a few QBs on there were drafted after round 1.
Yeah I forget to mention on this thread (I created it a few weeks ago for another thread)...that list includes every first round quarterback and non-first round quarterbacks that have made significant contributions (or for whom the jury is still out). It goes back to 2011, which was when the recent CBA installing the rookie wage scale was put in place.
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he just has be good enough to guide the team there. In the last 20-25 years, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Nick Foles (split with Carson Wentz) were journeymen quarterbacks who managed to win Super Bowls, yet none of them were especially great or even particularly good. But they had great teams that were able to win.
Conversely; a great quarterback can't always overcome deficiencies in their team; in the last Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes had a leaky offensive line and was battered and hurried by the Tampa Bay defense all day.
While of course, this is true.
But do you think a better strategy is to just settle with a lesser QB than you would like and extend him a longer term contract because Brad Johnson was able to win a ring?
Actually I think Brad Johnson was better than Trent Dilfer! lol
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In comment 15253487 Angel Eyes said:
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he just has be good enough to guide the team there. In the last 20-25 years, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Nick Foles (split with Carson Wentz) were journeymen quarterbacks who managed to win Super Bowls, yet none of them were especially great or even particularly good. But they had great teams that were able to win.
Conversely; a great quarterback can't always overcome deficiencies in their team; in the last Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes had a leaky offensive line and was battered and hurried by the Tampa Bay defense all day.
While of course, this is true.
But do you think a better strategy is to just settle with a lesser QB than you would like and extend him a longer term contract because Brad Johnson was able to win a ring?
Actually I think Brad Johnson was better than Trent Dilfer! lol
As do I. Was just being judicious in making the point without going overboard.
Conversely; a great quarterback can't always overcome deficiencies in their team; in the last Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes had a leaky offensive line and was battered and hurried by the Tampa Bay defense all day.
It's rare a great QB doesn't win a SB. So why settle for mediocre (Dilfer) or good (Brad Johnson, Nick Foles, etc)?
It requires too many other very good place to be in place to make the good or mediocre QB work.
- Jones was perhaps the least productive college quarterback drafted in the first round in the past decade
- Jones has had a very low level of production in two years in the NFL
That's what we know, definitively."
Again with the "definitively" part. Jones set several team rookie QB records and yet it is continually portrayed by you that he's not produced much. And it isn't an isolated comment. It is made on numerous threads. I wouldn't consider 24TD's in 2019 to be a "very low level" of production, yet you continually portray that season as if Jones was really bad.
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you can't use a chart that runs counterpoint to the entire point or argument that you are trying to make.
God, the point is so obvious:
-Jones didn't have a very good collegiate career, certainly not elite
-Jones has not really had a very good NFL career so far either.
-Based on both of the above, there is reason for concern.
This isn't some "This chart here is a flaws predictor of which QBs are better than others!" thing.
I think that in both cases you're looking at Jones in a vacuum and rendering judgment (albeit, not Judge's judgment).
God, the point is so obvious:
-Jones didn't have a very good collegiate career, certainly not elite
-Jones has not really had a very good NFL career so far either.
-Based on both of the above, there is reason for concern.
This isn't some "This chart here is a flaws predictor of which QBs are better than others!" thing.
I believe you are forgetting a very important predictor of NFL success - the Senior Bowl MVP. Which Jones was... ;)
The team was 3-9 in his starts and struggled to score points.
Then the problems we saw in '19 further manifested themselves in '20, where his stats (including TD passes) were dreadful.
"But he threw 24 TD passes..." is pretty weak, no?
Either he succeeds this season or not, and I think believing if he will or will not have valid arguments attached but no one can say for sure how it'll play out yet. We'll have a good idea about a quarter-way into the season.
Either he succeeds this season or not, and I think believing if he will or will not have valid arguments attached but no one can say for sure how it'll play out yet. We'll have a good idea about a quarter-way into the season.
This is true.
Almost every other QB he can be compared to played with at least someone who could help him. I would have said Darnold but he did have that at USC. I just wold like to see Jones play under optimal conditions like most other QB's get to do.
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was on a very, very poor Duke team. Lucky for him he was drafted onto an NFL team with very poor offensive talent and the only elite skill player injured both seasons. There has been a significant increase in skill position talent this season if they can stay healthy. He may feel less pressure to be the hero every play which can reduce turnovers. It's a team game and they have to feed off each other.
Either he succeeds this season or not, and I think believing if he will or will not have valid arguments attached but no one can say for sure how it'll play out yet. We'll have a good idea about a quarter-way into the season.
This is true.
Almost every other QB he can be compared to played with at least someone who could help him. I would have said Darnold but he did have that at USC. I just wold like to see Jones play under optimal conditions like most other QB's get to do.
You really think that MOST QBs get to play under optimal conditions?
Maybe that gets right to the crux of the issue.
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In comment 15253618 darren in pdx said:
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was on a very, very poor Duke team. Lucky for him he was drafted onto an NFL team with very poor offensive talent and the only elite skill player injured both seasons. There has been a significant increase in skill position talent this season if they can stay healthy. He may feel less pressure to be the hero every play which can reduce turnovers. It's a team game and they have to feed off each other.
Either he succeeds this season or not, and I think believing if he will or will not have valid arguments attached but no one can say for sure how it'll play out yet. We'll have a good idea about a quarter-way into the season.
This is true.
Almost every other QB he can be compared to played with at least someone who could help him. I would have said Darnold but he did have that at USC. I just wold like to see Jones play under optimal conditions like most other QB's get to do.
You really think that MOST QBs get to play under optimal conditions?
Maybe that gets right to the crux of the issue.
Let's say more so. I mean has he ever in his life had good protection and reliable receivers (college or pros)?
Jones was under tremendous pressure last year. NYG QBs were pressured just about 30% of the time in 2020, which was second worst in the NFL only to MINN.
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In comment 15253637 Bill L said:
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In comment 15253618 darren in pdx said:
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was on a very, very poor Duke team. Lucky for him he was drafted onto an NFL team with very poor offensive talent and the only elite skill player injured both seasons. There has been a significant increase in skill position talent this season if they can stay healthy. He may feel less pressure to be the hero every play which can reduce turnovers. It's a team game and they have to feed off each other.
Either he succeeds this season or not, and I think believing if he will or will not have valid arguments attached but no one can say for sure how it'll play out yet. We'll have a good idea about a quarter-way into the season.
This is true.
Almost every other QB he can be compared to played with at least someone who could help him. I would have said Darnold but he did have that at USC. I just wold like to see Jones play under optimal conditions like most other QB's get to do.
You really think that MOST QBs get to play under optimal conditions?
Maybe that gets right to the crux of the issue.
Let's say more so. I mean has he ever in his life had good protection and reliable receivers (college or pros)?
I agree, this is the debate. He has never really had a great supporting cast, in college or with the Giants. So we're seeing a QB struggle, and we don't know if it's because he's not good or if it's because those around him are not good.
But we do know he hasn't succeeded in spite of his supporting cast, so that already carves the absolute top off of his ceiling.
Still, I'm not sure why you'd suggest that MOST quarterbacks get to operate under OPTIMAL conditions. The fact is that most don't get anything close to optimal. Most probably get better conditions than DJ has had, but then again, most also produce better than DJ has. So is he just a part? A cog in the wheel? Shouldn't the QB be the hub of the wheel and not just a cog?
We're going to find out a lot more about DJ's competence this season with far stronger weapons surrounding him. I hope he responds with a fantastic season and puts the debate to rest. But it's still an open question right now.
And, to answer the questions after that, you probably have to also ask "who *could* succeed?" I doubt most rookie QB could.
And, to answer the questions after that, you probably have to also ask "who *could* succeed?" I doubt most rookie QB could.
Tend to agree. Wonder why they put him in such a difficult environment like that, and then again in year 2.
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why is why I dispute anyone saying anything in absolutes.
And, to answer the questions after that, you probably have to also ask "who *could* succeed?" I doubt most rookie QB could.
Tend to agree. Wonder why they put him in such a difficult environment like that, and then again in year 2.
I would say that he was unfortunate enough to land on a turning aircraft carrier.
And, to answer the questions after that, you probably have to also ask "who *could* succeed?" I doubt most rookie QB could.
He wasn't a rookie last year, and he regressed. I'm not sure why "rookie QB" is your measuring stick, but I suppose it gives you a bit more leeway.
Actual rookies, who should have been just as challenged by the oddities of 2020, outplayed him on their respective teams. Back to the excuse game, I guess?
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Is there another player in the NFL under more pressure than Jones this year? Maybe Stafford?
Jones was under tremendous pressure last year. NYG QBs were pressured just about 30% of the time in 2020, which was second worst in the NFL only to MINN.
I mean pressure to perform...
(It’s not lost on me some of the folks bemoaning the situation Jones was put in are some of the same folks who claimed the talent was fine last offseason, but water, bridges, etc.)
So now let’s try and apportion some percentages of blame as to why Jones and the offense sucked. What is the split between the skill positions, the line, the unorthodox offseason, the injuries, and his talent.
I’d say:
50% limits in Jones’s talent
15% offensive line
15% skill positions
10% weird offseason
10% injuries
The team was 3-9 in his starts and struggled to score points.
Then the problems we saw in '19 further manifested themselves in '20, where his stats (including TD passes) were dreadful.
"But he threw 24 TD passes..." is pretty weak, no?
You just described Peyton Manning's, Eli Manning's, and Matt Stafford's rookie seasons to name a few. The thing about QB's that are taken really early in the first round is, they typically go to bad teams. This is just cherry picking stats to support your argument. Are you rooting for Jones this year?
However, I can't help but be concerned that he'll continue to turn the ball over, and that's not just a triviality.
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In Jones's rookie year he played 4 games where his passer rating was above league average. 8 where it was below league average. That doesn't capture the league leading 19 fumbles.
The team was 3-9 in his starts and struggled to score points.
Then the problems we saw in '19 further manifested themselves in '20, where his stats (including TD passes) were dreadful.
"But he threw 24 TD passes..." is pretty weak, no?
You just described Peyton Manning's, Eli Manning's, and Matt Stafford's rookie seasons to name a few. The thing about QB's that are taken really early in the first round is, they typically go to bad teams. This is just cherry picking stats to support your argument. Are you rooting for Jones this year?
Which of those threw 11 TDs in their second year?
The Giants know it too, they are hedging their bet with the 2022 draft capital. We’ll see. I’m all good giving Jones this year to perform as a high level QB. If he doesn’t, the Giants aren’t married to him and have plenty of assets.
It’s a good spot to be in.
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In comment 15253693 Bill L said:
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why is why I dispute anyone saying anything in absolutes.
And, to answer the questions after that, you probably have to also ask "who *could* succeed?" I doubt most rookie QB could.
Tend to agree. Wonder why they put him in such a difficult environment like that, and then again in year 2.
I would say that he was unfortunate enough to land on a turning aircraft carrier.
Odd that I haven't supported Getts more often since he built such a sturdy ship for his franchise's "Top Gun" to land on over the years.
What a plan, what vision...
I'm rooting for the Giants to win. I don't care who the quarterback is. Who and what any of us are rooting for is irrelevant, anyway.
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In comment 15253613 Go Terps said:
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In Jones's rookie year he played 4 games where his passer rating was above league average. 8 where it was below league average. That doesn't capture the league leading 19 fumbles.
The team was 3-9 in his starts and struggled to score points.
Then the problems we saw in '19 further manifested themselves in '20, where his stats (including TD passes) were dreadful.
"But he threw 24 TD passes..." is pretty weak, no?
You just described Peyton Manning's, Eli Manning's, and Matt Stafford's rookie seasons to name a few. The thing about QB's that are taken really early in the first round is, they typically go to bad teams. This is just cherry picking stats to support your argument. Are you rooting for Jones this year?
Which of those threw 11 TDs in their second year?
Well bringing it back to the original thread topic, he was clearly significantly banged up. In addition to that, lost his best weapon, the offensive line played horribly and it was a completely new offense in a shortened off-season.
The jury is absolutely still out and it is impossible to definitively say whether he is a good qb or bad. However I think it is fair to say there have been flashes which is typically what you want to see from young QB's in bad situations. This year will be telling.
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In comment 15253619 bw in dc said:
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Is there another player in the NFL under more pressure than Jones this year? Maybe Stafford?
Jones was under tremendous pressure last year. NYG QBs were pressured just about 30% of the time in 2020, which was second worst in the NFL only to MINN.
I mean pressure to perform...
I know. Just giving the balanced view that doesn't always come out clear in some of the other posters' rants...
:-)
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Are you rooting for Jones this year?
I'm rooting for the Giants to win. I don't care who the quarterback is. Who and what any of us are rooting for is irrelevant, anyway.
Irrelevant to the team actually being successful, sure. However, rooting for the QB of said team would essentially be synonymous with rooting for the team. QB does well, team is more likely to do well. Seems you would rather be right than the Giants be successful.
However, I can't help but be concerned that he'll continue to turn the ball over, and that's not just a triviality.
I'm still not sold on all of the constituent parts of this OL, but there is no dearth of skill players now who can score TDs if Jones can deliver the ball. If we don't score at least 24ppg with this group than Jones really is not the man.
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In comment 15253818 Gmen88 said:
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Are you rooting for Jones this year?
I'm rooting for the Giants to win. I don't care who the quarterback is. Who and what any of us are rooting for is irrelevant, anyway.
Irrelevant to the team actually being successful, sure. However, rooting for the QB of said team would essentially be synonymous with rooting for the team. QB does well, team is more likely to do well. Seems you would rather be right than the Giants be successful.
Whatever makes you feel better. I could just as easily argue that rooting for Jones to keep the job is anathema to rooting for the Giants to win. It has been to this point.
I don't really care what anyone is rooting for.
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In comment 15253831 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15253818 Gmen88 said:
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Are you rooting for Jones this year?
I'm rooting for the Giants to win. I don't care who the quarterback is. Who and what any of us are rooting for is irrelevant, anyway.
Irrelevant to the team actually being successful, sure. However, rooting for the QB of said team would essentially be synonymous with rooting for the team. QB does well, team is more likely to do well. Seems you would rather be right than the Giants be successful.
Whatever makes you feel better. I could just as easily argue that rooting for Jones to keep the job is anathema to rooting for the Giants to win. It has been to this point.
I don't really care what anyone is rooting for.
You couldn't, because it is impossible to say one way or another. I don't know the answer, but we will see.
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So many of BBI posters try to ignore the teams problems on
Offensive Line ( and it has been very "offensive") and on the receiving corps (ps silent).
Give the guy a chance to prove himself under normal conditions and with a decent OL and good receivers.
As for Joe Judge, I think he may make it. Time will tell.
Have a feeling a large number of those guys are the ones who never liked the pick in the first place and are still thinking about Josh Allen and what could have been. Subset of those guys could be those still mad at Gettleman choosing Barkley #2 overall, instead of choosing Eli’s successor. Might be wrong about that, but I’m guessing that’s where the some of that sentiment originates.
The funny aspect to this is that out of the top 3 QBs Allen was the least wanted QB from that year on this board.
It was Darnold, Rosen, then Allen
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In comment 15252182 TLong said:
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So many of BBI posters try to ignore the teams problems on
Offensive Line ( and it has been very "offensive") and on the receiving corps (ps silent).
Give the guy a chance to prove himself under normal conditions and with a decent OL and good receivers.
As for Joe Judge, I think he may make it. Time will tell.
Have a feeling a large number of those guys are the ones who never liked the pick in the first place and are still thinking about Josh Allen and what could have been. Subset of those guys could be those still mad at Gettleman choosing Barkley #2 overall, instead of choosing Eli’s successor. Might be wrong about that, but I’m guessing that’s where the some of that sentiment originates.
The funny aspect to this is that out of the top 3 QBs Allen was the least wanted QB from that year on this board.
It was Darnold, Rosen, then Allen
In fairness, we're not crowdsourcing our draft picks. We do expect that our front office has much more information and a slight better idea than we do.
And they passed on Allen. So that's not really a knock on the board, and it's kind of a knock on the front office. I know that wasn't your intent, but I don't think any of us is under the impression that they're choosing their draft picks based on BBI noise.
The Bills are the example of how a re-build gets done.
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The Buffalo Bills traded No. 1 wide receiver Sammy Watkins, starting left tackle Cordy Glenn and six draft picks to move into position to select quarterback Josh Allen out of Wyoming with the seventh overall pick of the 2018 NFL draft.
The Bills are the example of how a re-build gets done.
He was on KJZ late last week, and made the comment that he had build up the oline first (before getting Diggs) because without Allen upright it didn't matter what weapons he had to throw to
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In comment 15252198 BSIMatt said:
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In comment 15252182 TLong said:
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So many of BBI posters try to ignore the teams problems on
Offensive Line ( and it has been very "offensive") and on the receiving corps (ps silent).
Give the guy a chance to prove himself under normal conditions and with a decent OL and good receivers.
As for Joe Judge, I think he may make it. Time will tell.
Have a feeling a large number of those guys are the ones who never liked the pick in the first place and are still thinking about Josh Allen and what could have been. Subset of those guys could be those still mad at Gettleman choosing Barkley #2 overall, instead of choosing Eli’s successor. Might be wrong about that, but I’m guessing that’s where the some of that sentiment originates.
The funny aspect to this is that out of the top 3 QBs Allen was the least wanted QB from that year on this board.
It was Darnold, Rosen, then Allen
In fairness, we're not crowdsourcing our draft picks. We do expect that our front office has much more information and a slight better idea than we do.
And they passed on Allen. So that's not really a knock on the board, and it's kind of a knock on the front office. I know that wasn't your intent, but I don't think any of us is under the impression that they're choosing their draft picks based on BBI noise.
I agree, but I do think it illustrates some of the Monday morning QBing that we see on BBI
At least they are getting better at this now...