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Giants coach Joe Judge said most other NFL players would have missed more than only two games. “Look, Daniel is the last guy that’s going to use anything as an excuse,” Judge, who rarely talks about injuries, told The Michael Kay Show on Monday. What I would say about the injury last year is it was much more serious than maybe people thought on the outside. I would say probably 90 percent of players in the league who would have had that injury, including quarterbacks, would have been on IR for the remainder of the year. That’s just the reality of it. It was much more severe than maybe he allowed people to know or the information that was put out there, and we’re going to protect our players by not disclosing everything about their injuries to be honest with you. He fought through a lot of things. He earned a lot of people’s respect.” |
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I know we’ve all been over this, at least a thousand times. But the one argument that still irks me is the idea that Jones just needs more talent around him. This excuse, which he carries all the way through his professional *and* college career is to me the least convincing.
Would Jones be better with All Pro players at every position? Well, yeah, but is there a player in the NFL who wouldn’t? Has the talent with Jones been great? Well, we know that someone like Tate is long in the tooth and past his prime, sure, but he had a legit NFL career. Is Slayton an all world player? No, but he’s in the NFL. Our line hasn’t been good but even there, we do have AT, a top ten pick, Hernandez a top 2nd round pick. There’s talent on the offense, Barks the number 2, EE a first round pick, Shep, and on and on. Some of you act like Jones is out there playing with a bunch of guys from the neighborhood bar’s flag football league. He’s in the NFL and the guys he’s playing with are all among the very best football players in the country.
For the old timers, remember when we used to talk about LT in his first couple of years and how all he needed was a better defensive line and a better defensive backfield and full off season to get ready and he needed a few good linebackers to play with? Yeah, me neither. Great players make the players around them great. It’s not the other way around.
Now if Jones were taken in the third round we’d all be a lot more forgiving of his heretofore lack of greatness. But Jones was the 6th overall pick - there shouldn’t be a debate at this point with the sixth overall pick. Enough about the talent around him, it’s time for this guy to be the person on the Giants who is making the players around him better. It’s time to start winning some football games.
Good write-up. I've been over a lot of that real estate myself.
It goes back to this - expectations. There is a loud, large faction on this board who don't think Jones should be a difference maker. He's just one piece of the puzzle and he's the one who needs to be dependent on others, not the other way around. For them, it doesn't matter if Jones was drafted #6 or in the 6th round. He's just 1/11th of the offense...
Yes, I do give him a pass for 2020. Get your eraser.
It is fair.
Also fair.
Put up or shut the fuck up in 2021.
Time is up.
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when people make shit up to prove something. Jones has never played well in the NFL? Never? He never threw four-five TD passes in a game? That win against Philly didn't happen last year? He didn't deliver a perfect dime to Engram in the first Philly game and play well enough that day? He didn't play well against Dallas week 17 in 21?
Fucking childish. That's what children do. You should be banned from a thread after doing this.
You're the only one throwing a tantrum djm...
uhh...ok. Is that what calling out BS is called these days?
When an adult resorts to exaggerations I call that fucking horse shit. How's that sound?
I can assure you if he stinks that Judge will do everything in his power to not only not pay him, but find his replacement. Doing otherwise would completely contradict how he's managed this team from his very first day as a Giant.
Sure but we saw him clean up the fumbles, if that persists and getting weapons leads to the TD's he was able to produce, we will be onto something.
You can't have it all your way. He did some nice things his rookie year its just that the fumbles completely negated them.
He isn't an elite QB, he needs help.
I agree with this. The problem is the Giants don't. If his being the 6th pick overall didn't matter we'd be entering 2021 with Justin Fields as our quarterback.
If that were Andy Dalton or Ryan Fitzpatrick that threw 11 TDs in 2020 you think he'd be the quarterback again in 2021? No fucking way.
The only reason Jones is still the quarterback is that he was the 6th pick in the draft.
However, you are spot on. The skill positions have been filled. And if Jones can be who he is supposed to be the expectations should be at least 24ppg. Which would be very close to where we need to be...I hope.
Is that how you play this game? The Rookie year is indicative of a QBs career trajectory?
Simms doesn't count. Eli doesn't count. Tannenhill doesn't count. None of those dudes count. Josh Allen? Go fuck yourself, doesn't count. And he was better in year 2 anyway so it doesn't fit I guess. Many rookie QBs don't even play that first year? Fuck off, doesn't count.
Jones is who he is. Always will be. Thanks for playing.
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If that year was indicative of what Jones can be then we're definitely in need of a quarterback.
Sure but we saw him clean up the fumbles, if that persists and getting weapons leads to the TD's he was able to produce, we will be onto something.
You can't have it all your way. He did some nice things his rookie year its just that the fumbles completely negated them.
He did not clean up the fumbles. He fumbled 11 times, tied for the league lead.
There is nowhere near enough "certainty" he can be a difference maker.
That is what many of his critics on this thread are saying.
Never mind WHY he was a high pick in the first place. Also never mind that the Giants just cut a former 1st round DB named Baker before his second season even started.
Of course he's still here because he was a first round pick. He was picked high for a reason. The Giants still see those same reasons or attributes to this day and want to keep at this.
I know you're better than this. You just live for this shit.
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he was selected where he was and that should no longer matter when it comes to how we build the team. Whether he should be elevating lesser players or not couldn't be more irrelevant now. The team needed an upgrade and its reasonable to assume it should help Jones (or anyone else).
He isn't an elite QB, he needs help.
I agree with this. The problem is the Giants don't. If his being the 6th pick overall didn't matter we'd be entering 2021 with Justin Fields as our quarterback.
If that were Andy Dalton or Ryan Fitzpatrick that threw 11 TDs in 2020 you think he'd be the quarterback again in 2021? No fucking way.
The only reason Jones is still the quarterback is that he was the 6th pick in the draft.
This is exactly the right point. It is the Giants, not the fans, that cannot get over where he was drafted. We are simply praying that the team will not continue to make mistakes to support and defend drafting him at six.
How comforting!
NFL teams aren't going to recycle QB's every 2 years and despite what you think, they may actually have faith in Jones. Shocking, I know.
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In comment 15254673 UConn4523 said:
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he was selected where he was and that should no longer matter when it comes to how we build the team. Whether he should be elevating lesser players or not couldn't be more irrelevant now. The team needed an upgrade and its reasonable to assume it should help Jones (or anyone else).
He isn't an elite QB, he needs help.
I agree with this. The problem is the Giants don't. If his being the 6th pick overall didn't matter we'd be entering 2021 with Justin Fields as our quarterback.
If that were Andy Dalton or Ryan Fitzpatrick that threw 11 TDs in 2020 you think he'd be the quarterback again in 2021? No fucking way.
The only reason Jones is still the quarterback is that he was the 6th pick in the draft.
This is exactly the right point. It is the Giants, not the fans, that cannot get over where he was drafted. We are simply praying that the team will not continue to make mistakes to support and defend drafting him at six.
It's a stupid point.
He's not here because he was a first round pick. He's here because he possesses traits and talents that got him drafted in round 1.
If Jones was worse, or if he was acting like an asshole on and off the field, or if he was sleeping in practice or video sessions, he wouldn't be here anymore or he'd be a backup.
You know, like Haskins, the same player 90% of this place wanted instead of Jones. If Jones was acting like Haskins he'd be outta here too.
Keep making shit up.
have a good day.
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If that year was indicative of what Jones can be then we're definitely in need of a quarterback.
Is that how you play this game? The Rookie year is indicative of a QBs career trajectory?
Simms doesn't count. Eli doesn't count. Tannenhill doesn't count. None of those dudes count. Josh Allen? Go fuck yourself, doesn't count. And he was better in year 2 anyway so it doesn't fit I guess. Many rookie QBs don't even play that first year? Fuck off, doesn't count.
Jones is who he is. Always will be. Thanks for playing.
Plus Simms played pretty badly in college; he never played in a bowl game, completed less than half his throws, and threw more interceptions than college. Yet the Giants drafted him at no.7 overall.
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he was selected where he was and that should no longer matter when it comes to how we build the team. Whether he should be elevating lesser players or not couldn't be more irrelevant now. The team needed an upgrade and its reasonable to assume it should help Jones (or anyone else).
He isn't an elite QB, he needs help.
I agree with this. The problem is the Giants don't. If his being the 6th pick overall didn't matter we'd be entering 2021 with Justin Fields as our quarterback.
If that were Andy Dalton or Ryan Fitzpatrick that threw 11 TDs in 2020 you think he'd be the quarterback again in 2021? No fucking way.
The only reason Jones is still the quarterback is that he was the 6th pick in the draft.
That's not true. Or, at the very least it's a absolute statement unfounded and unsupported by anything.
You have no idea what their evaluation of Jones is based upon their knowledge of him, his practice, his performance, and the overall circumstances. You have absolutely know idea of what they believe is his potential (or lack), what he needs to do to improve, or, more importantly, whether or not he *can* improve.
It is simply a baseless statement. Unless, of course, you're willing to pony up their correspondence that states their rationale for keeping Jones.
However, you are spot on. The skill positions have been filled. And if Jones can be who he is supposed to be the expectations should be at least 24ppg. Which would be very close to where we need to be...I hope.
I don't feel comfortable putting a PPG on it just yet, until I see this team in action, although 24 seems reasonable. But I certainly get the feeling, with this defense and run game, we are going to milk clock decreasing the overall PPG. We saw them do the same thing last year to an extreme degree because the offense was so bad.
Points per drive, overall TD/TO ratio, and high red zone percentage are certain things I want to see much higher this year.
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In comment 15254579 Go Terps said:
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I haven't said "nothing that can happen can change this". Why make shit up?
I've said Jones isn't a good starting NFL quarterback. I've laid out numerous reasons for it: stats, scouting reports, video clips. The evidence that he isn't very good is plentiful and easy to find, because he hasn't been. It's not impossible that he'll be good; there's just no reason to believe he will based on what we've seen and what he's done in five years of high level football. The next time he plays really good football for a full season will be the first.
That's definitive, because it's a fact. I didn't have to make that up or put words in someone else's mouth.
It's funny when Britt latches onto a single sentence.
If you try to do the same thing to him, he accuses you of being high.
You were fucking high if you think any of your posts about me on this thread were actually true after you dug up the thread in question. They’re all above for anybody to read.
You have literally tacked on words and taken quotes out of context for the latter half of this thread, and I was "fucking high" when I actually linked the exact point that I was making about you. You want the Giants to be a Hallmark movie. I want them to win.
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In comment 15254679 Go Terps said:
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If that year was indicative of what Jones can be then we're definitely in need of a quarterback.
Is that how you play this game? The Rookie year is indicative of a QBs career trajectory?
Simms doesn't count. Eli doesn't count. Tannenhill doesn't count. None of those dudes count. Josh Allen? Go fuck yourself, doesn't count. And he was better in year 2 anyway so it doesn't fit I guess. Many rookie QBs don't even play that first year? Fuck off, doesn't count.
Jones is who he is. Always will be. Thanks for playing.
Plus Simms played pretty badly in college; he never played in a bowl game, completed less than half his throws, and threw more interceptions than touchdowns. Yet the Giants drafted him at no.7 overall.
I can assure you if he stinks that Judge will do everything in his power to not only not pay him, but find his replacement. Doing otherwise would completely contradict how he's managed this team from his very first day as a Giant.
This is why this thread has become a hotbed. Judge's comments suggest that he would rather play an injured tough kid who was in hindsight not ready to play, than to win with Colt McCoy who had just beaten the Seahawks. I think Judge is the best thing to happen to the Giants since George Young so I hope you are right.
NFL teams aren't going to recycle QB's every 2 years and despite what you think, they may actually have faith in Jones. Shocking, I know.
That would be shocking, based on the level of his play.
If they have faith in him, this isn't a "prove it year". He'd have already proven it.
People accuse me of being overly loyal or a fan boy of any of the above, but I'm not. That should be apparent with how happy I was with the Jones pick. Now I want him to win.
No one should ever question that you are a genuine Giants fan first and foremost. You've always rooted for the guy in the seat with a lot of passion. I rarely agree with you, but you're a really sincere fan.
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Asking him to BE the offense is something you can only expect elite veteran QBs to do.
There is nowhere near enough "certainty" he can be a difference maker.
That is what many of his critics on this thread are saying.
And why would you expect certainty being in his second year, in his second offense, with dog shit around him. It's completely unreasonable. I saw a QB who improved in ways that were definitely coaching points over the offseason and just needed reps to get the process a bit faster. That is why I said he "certainly" can be a difference-maker. Can be. His critics just point to stats, which are heavily influenced by what is going on around you.
NFL teams aren't going to recycle QB's every 2 years and despite what you think, they may actually have faith in Jones. Shocking, I know.
That's a fair question. But they sort of got themselves in a bind by giving up a second for Darnold. Suggesting - to me - that they were very high on Darnold as a solution.
On Fields, btw, I think he's gone to QB Hell in Chicago. That organization has not been good for a long, long time developing QBs under any HC. If Fields can overcome the history, he's going to be special...
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In comment 15254635 Thegratefulhead said:
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Even if we have another pandemic it will handled much better. I completely throw out 2020 for my Jones evaluation. What happened in 2020 was out this world. My take on Jones is based on growth over 2019. If you want to hold him to the fire for 2020. Have at it.
Every team had to deal with Covid is too simple. Find an actual person that played QB in the NFL and ask them how easy it is for a second year QB to deal with a completely new offense and coach.
We know the answer right?
Then ask, take away his starting RB in week 2, and throw in an almost entirely new OL.
Harder.
OK, now ask that QB about doing THAT during covid with less practice than ever and remote learning that you had never experienced before.
Maybe DJ bombs, but stop the insanity, let this year play out and for heaven's sake get in the kid's corner for a minute or two.
I've said this before and I'll keep saying it: we can reasonably deduce that EITHER 2020 OR 2019 is going to ultimately be viewed as an outlier for DJ.
We just don't know which yet.
One season had a pandemic, it is no stretch to point out which is the more likely outlier.
Except that other QBs didn't struggle due to the pandemic, including rookies, who one might reasonably assume would be exactly as impacted as a 2nd year player with a new offense.
And also except for the fact that the pandemic year might have actually been more consistent with DJ's collegiate career and the concerns that he carried into the NFL.
It was a step backward, even with the context of the pandemic, IMO.
Here's the thing: we don't have to decide which one was the outlier. History will.
DG would never cut bait on a player he drafted or signed (LOL yeah OK)
Giants will never move on from Eli. (they likely were prepared to in 2018 but they didn't like any of the QBs at 2)
Giants will never hire someone from outside the org. Judge says HI.
Now I am supposed to believe that the Giants are afraid of admitting that Jones was a mistake. Lovely. Another made up gem.
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In comment 15254675 Zeke's Alibi said:
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Asking him to BE the offense is something you can only expect elite veteran QBs to do.
There is nowhere near enough "certainty" he can be a difference maker.
That is what many of his critics on this thread are saying.
And why would you expect certainty being in his second year, in his second offense, with dog shit around him. It's completely unreasonable. I saw a QB who improved in ways that were definitely coaching points over the offseason and just needed reps to get the process a bit faster. That is why I said he "certainly" can be a difference-maker. Can be. His critics just point to stats, which are heavily influenced by what is going on around you.
Yes agree, although his critics don't just point to stats. I support his 3rd year but have seen plenty of non-stat reasons on Sundays to be very concerned.
Those words are a bit too close I guess...
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he traded for Darnold who's uninspiring to put it mildly. Isn't Fields a huge upgrade for them or no?
NFL teams aren't going to recycle QB's every 2 years and despite what you think, they may actually have faith in Jones. Shocking, I know.
That would be shocking, based on the level of his play.
If they have faith in him, this isn't a "prove it year". He'd have already proven it.
Yeah we all get it, haha, good lord. Take it up with Judge then, I don't really know what else to say anymore. Everything about Jones stinks, 2021 is going to stink, we are going to then sign him to a $200m contract I on top of it.
Lets all just join in on the stink, its all the rage apparently.
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he traded for Darnold who's uninspiring to put it mildly. Isn't Fields a huge upgrade for them or no?
NFL teams aren't going to recycle QB's every 2 years and despite what you think, they may actually have faith in Jones. Shocking, I know.
That's a fair question. But they sort of got themselves in a bind by giving up a second for Darnold. Suggesting - to me - that they were very high on Darnold as a solution.
On Fields, btw, I think he's gone to QB Hell in Chicago. That organization has not been good for a long, long time developing QBs under any HC. If Fields can overcome the history, he's going to be special...
Unless he was never special to begin with. That's unanswerable. But, in a weird way, it brings us back to the exact same argument we are having here about Jones.
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In comment 15254692 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15254675 Zeke's Alibi said:
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Asking him to BE the offense is something you can only expect elite veteran QBs to do.
There is nowhere near enough "certainty" he can be a difference maker.
That is what many of his critics on this thread are saying.
And why would you expect certainty being in his second year, in his second offense, with dog shit around him. It's completely unreasonable. I saw a QB who improved in ways that were definitely coaching points over the offseason and just needed reps to get the process a bit faster. That is why I said he "certainly" can be a difference-maker. Can be. His critics just point to stats, which are heavily influenced by what is going on around you.
Yes agree, although his critics don't just point to stats. I support his 3rd year but have seen plenty of non-stat reasons on Sundays to be very concerned.
Those words are a bit too close I guess...
I think that you are on the side almost everyone else is. They support his third year, see some reasons for concern, and that this is when he has to put up or be gone. Other than GT and, maybe bw(?), virtually everyone else is on the same page.
So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?
So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?
I don't believe for one second the boys at One Giants Way gave consideration to any of these QBs (unless, of course, a miracle happened and TL fell...)
And that is troubling to me because Fields is so much more advanced and physically more gifted than Jones at this same point in their draft process. I don't even think it's particularly close.
Terps and I kicked this around a few times pre-draft and wondered what we would do if Fields fell to #11. Both of us sort of felt that was likely not going to happen, but it should be a no-brainer move...
Well, as the draft gods would have it, we had the opportunity.
Right now, IMV, outside of maybe Sam Howell, who I really like, Fields is better than ANY QB prospect in the '22 pool. Pretty comfortably too...
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In comment 15254638 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15254635 Thegratefulhead said:
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Even if we have another pandemic it will handled much better. I completely throw out 2020 for my Jones evaluation. What happened in 2020 was out this world. My take on Jones is based on growth over 2019. If you want to hold him to the fire for 2020. Have at it.
Every team had to deal with Covid is too simple. Find an actual person that played QB in the NFL and ask them how easy it is for a second year QB to deal with a completely new offense and coach.
We know the answer right?
Then ask, take away his starting RB in week 2, and throw in an almost entirely new OL.
Harder.
OK, now ask that QB about doing THAT during covid with less practice than ever and remote learning that you had never experienced before.
Maybe DJ bombs, but stop the insanity, let this year play out and for heaven's sake get in the kid's corner for a minute or two.
I've said this before and I'll keep saying it: we can reasonably deduce that EITHER 2020 OR 2019 is going to ultimately be viewed as an outlier for DJ.
We just don't know which yet.
One season had a pandemic, it is no stretch to point out which is the more likely outlier.
Except that other QBs didn't struggle due to the pandemic, including rookies, who one might reasonably assume would be exactly as impacted as a 2nd year player with a new offense.
And also except for the fact that the pandemic year might have actually been more consistent with DJ's collegiate career and the concerns that he carried into the NFL.
It was a step backward, even with the context of the pandemic, IMO.
Here's the thing: we don't have to decide which one was the outlier. History will.
I felt it was time for an upgrade. So we're in the test marketing phase... ;)
So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?
I'm very curious on how the Giants rated the QBs vs the 2019 grade on Jones. They obviously would have taken Lawrence. And obviously they did pass on Fields/Jones. Would they have picked Wilson? Lance?
I'm actually more curious on how NYG operates more than anything Daniel Jones specific.
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that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).
So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?
I don't believe for one second the boys at One Giants Way gave consideration to any of these QBs (unless, of course, a miracle happened and TL fell...)
And that is troubling to me because Fields is so much more advanced and physically more gifted than Jones at this same point in their draft process. I don't even think it's particularly close.
Terps and I kicked this around a few times pre-draft and wondered what we would do if Fields fell to #11. Both of us sort of felt that was likely not going to happen, but it should be a no-brainer move...
Well, as the draft gods would have it, we had the opportunity.
Right now, IMV, outside of maybe Sam Howell, who I really like, Fields is better than ANY QB prospect in the '22 pool. Pretty comfortably too...
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that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).
So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?
I'm very curious on how the Giants rated the QBs vs the 2019 grade on Jones. They obviously would have taken Lawrence. And obviously they did pass on Fields/Jones. Would they have picked Wilson? Lance?
I'm actually more curious on how NYG operates more than anything Daniel Jones specific.
I'm not even sure they would have taken Lawrence.
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the new "Jints Central"?
I felt it was time for an upgrade. So we're in the test marketing phase... ;)
tbh, I was shocked you didn't upgrade to LWilliam$.
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In comment 15254759 UConn4523 said:
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that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).
So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?
I'm very curious on how the Giants rated the QBs vs the 2019 grade on Jones. They obviously would have taken Lawrence. And obviously they did pass on Fields/Jones. Would they have picked Wilson? Lance?
I'm actually more curious on how NYG operates more than anything Daniel Jones specific.
I'm not even sure they would have taken Lawrence.
Again, do you have data to support that?
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In comment 15254759 UConn4523 said:
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that its very realistic that the Giants didn't like the QB options at 11 anyway. I wanted nothing to do with Mac Jones so that leaves Fields ONLY. If Jones stinks we have 2 picks now, 1 which will be very high under this scenario (ours).
So are we settling for QB4 or priming ourselves for a potentially better player if needed in 2022?
I'm very curious on how the Giants rated the QBs vs the 2019 grade on Jones. They obviously would have taken Lawrence. And obviously they did pass on Fields/Jones. Would they have picked Wilson? Lance?
I'm actually more curious on how NYG operates more than anything Daniel Jones specific.
I'm not even sure they would have taken Lawrence.
How do you reconcile your view that Joe Judge doesn't believe in Jones and your view that Lawrence wouldn't be picked if they had #1? Those seem incongruent to me?
I'd add, I think DG would have been canned if we picked #1.
It's going to be very interesting to see how Nagy can work with Fields. He somehow figured out how to win with Trubisky, but Trubisky just flattened out with his growth. But I don't feel good about Fields in Chicago...
I didn't saying anything about Mara and mandates. The message was pretty clear - the brass feel Daniel Jones is clearly a better QB solution than Fields.
If Field develops, and Jones stumbles this year, we are going to have to Fields to the basket of QBs we could have had instead of Jones.
Atlanta, Carolina, Denver, Philly (they even traded up and took someone else) all have major questions at QB. All chose a different route. Maybe Fields ends up being great, and they will all regret it, or maybe not. But its pretty clear that it isn't just the Giants that operate this way.
Shouldn't the Broncos of all teams be salivating at the opportunity to finally upgrade at QB? What has Lock done to instill any confidence?