But the points against him are fair at this point. And while everyone says there can't be any excuses, there were plenty of excuses last year (injuries to his main weapons, himself, new OC, new offense, Pandemic-shortened preseason and so on).
If DJ can stay upright (OL) and half of his weapons can stay healthy, I think he' play well. But everyone knows he still has to prove it.
And all this stuff about Rodgers is BS. As good as Rodgers is, Judge isn't looking for a diva QB on the wrong side of 35.
Except for Brandt comparing Jones to Minshew. Minshew was the definition of flash in the pan. He also doesnt possess half of the physical or mental talent Jones has.
I really hope he proves everybody wrong this year.
RE: I cant say that I disagree with a single point
Except for Brandt comparing Jones to Minshew. Minshew was the definition of flash in the pan. He also doesnt possess half of the physical or mental talent Jones has.
I really hope he proves everybody wrong this year.
Same here.
That would be a win-win-win. DJ, The Giants, and the fans.
was a "blind resume" in which they compared DJ to 6th round pick Gardner Minshew; whom the Jaguars were so thrilled to have, just invested a 1st overall pick to replace him.
All the way around. It would be a lot easier for the organization if Jones proves to be a top 10 qb and the guy. If he does not, the organization is going to have to spend a lot of draft capital to go up and get the guy, as this is likely a 6 win team regardless of how poorly DJ plays, maybe even better as the talent has been significantly upgraded.
was a "blind resume" in which they compared DJ to 6th round pick Gardner Minshew; whom the Jaguars were so thrilled to have, just invested a 1st overall pick to replace him.
Wonderful.
Yeah I am pretty sure that was NOT "in favor" of Daniel Jones... lol
was a "blind resume" in which they compared DJ to 6th round pick Gardner Minshew; whom the Jaguars were so thrilled to have, just invested a 1st overall pick to replace him.
Wonderful.
It was actually an argument against Jones.
I agree with the take that if he is going to succeed
was a "blind resume" in which they compared DJ to 6th round pick Gardner Minshew; whom the Jaguars were so thrilled to have, just invested a 1st overall pick to replace him.
Wonderful.
It was actually an argument against Jones.
Doesn't make it any less stupid.
How's this comparison:
DJ:
8-18 W/L record
62.1% Comp. %
35-22 TD-INT ratio
84.1 Passer Rating
QB2:
7-19 W/L record
55.1% Comp. %
20-35 TD-INT ratio
61.2 Passer Rating
basically everything, the "blind resume" thing is interesting, a bit weird, you could do that for a lot of QBs in their 1st and 2nd seasons and a lot of them would be similar. It's about the projection of what you think they CAN be. Minshew would have better stats through 2 years than a lot of franchise QBs that got taken in round 1.
RE: It is being described more as an ultimatum year
However, I was disappointed with the comparison. The comparison I thought they would give was between Jones and Josh Allen, this one seems to make the most sense. We are hoping that Jones can make the leap that Allen made in Year 3.
So, I had to waste some time to get some numbers for these QBs from their first 2 years:
was a "blind resume" in which they compared DJ to 6th round pick Gardner Minshew; whom the Jaguars were so thrilled to have, just invested a 1st overall pick to replace him.
Wonderful.
It was actually an argument against Jones.
Doesn't make it any less stupid.
How's this comparison:
DJ:
8-18 W/L record
62.1% Comp. %
35-22 TD-INT ratio
84.1 Passer Rating
QB2:
7-19 W/L record
55.1% Comp. %
20-35 TD-INT ratio
61.2 Passer Rating
QB2 is Troy Aikman.
Torture numbers and they'll confess to anything.
Troy Aikman? Are you sure you didn't want to go back to Joe Namath and put up a QB3.
I think he'll have more turnovers than we like and probably a small injury, but with added weapons, a training camp, an extra year in the 'system' and hopefully our line can improve, he will show progress. Not enough for some. More than enough for others. I think we make it to the playoffs and are 1 and done. I think we will split with each of our opponents, with the best chance to win two against Philly. I'm getting ahead of myself.
was a "blind resume" in which they compared DJ to 6th round pick Gardner Minshew; whom the Jaguars were so thrilled to have, just invested a 1st overall pick to replace him.
Wonderful.
It was actually an argument against Jones.
Doesn't make it any less stupid.
How's this comparison:
DJ:
8-18 W/L record
62.1% Comp. %
35-22 TD-INT ratio
84.1 Passer Rating
QB2:
7-19 W/L record
55.1% Comp. %
20-35 TD-INT ratio
61.2 Passer Rating
QB2 is Troy Aikman.
Torture numbers and they'll confess to anything.
Troy Aikman? Are you sure you didn't want to go back to Joe Namath and put up a QB3.
I just picked a HOF QB that popped into my head.
So use this guy if it makes you feel better:
11-12 W/L record
56.3% Comp. %
30-21 TD-INT ratio
76.6 Passer Rating
Different eras. I don't even think it's fair to compare current QBs to guys like Payton or Eli anymore.
What?? Your point is just idiotic. Pure stat comparison- yards now vs yards then, sure not an apt correlation or comparison. Com %, wins and losses, turnovers are all very relevant.
Hell, in an era where the ball was thrown far less Phil Simms threw 22 Ints, more ints than TDs in our SB year of 1986! If you were to extrapolate those numbers over a 16 games season in todays NFL, you would probably see at least 100 more pass attempts and thus Phil pushing 27-30 Ints..
Needs to be more modern in 2021. We tried install a new offense during Covid and because of that it was very basic. If judge is what he says he is, they find ways to get Toney and Barkley he ball in space. Golloday is not a problem, if he is one on one, he is open, throw it. Rudolph should provide a sure handed check down, he catches everything.
I want them to be creative getting the ball to the playmakers. If Garret is stubborn, let Kitchens do it. You really need big plays in today's NFL. A healthy Barkley, Toney and Golloday are so much greater than we we had last year, it isn't worth a comparison. EE might actually be able to something when he isn't the focus.
is such a boring take. No one is putting more pressure on Jones than himself, and that's regardless of the additions we made. He knows this is the year, the rest is just posturing.
Looking forward to seeing what he does, should be a fun season.
Different eras. I don't even think it's fair to compare current QBs to guys like Payton or Eli anymore.
What?? Your point is just idiotic. Pure stat comparison- yards now vs yards then, sure not an apt correlation or comparison. Com %, wins and losses, turnovers are all very relevant.
Hell, in an era where the ball was thrown far less Phil Simms threw 22 Ints, more ints than TDs in our SB year of 1986! If you were to extrapolate those numbers over a 16 games season in todays NFL, you would probably see at least 100 more pass attempts and thus Phil pushing 27-30 Ints..
totally different Era. The defenses he faced his first two years were Parcells Giants, Gibbs Redskins and Ryan's Eagles. Does not get much harder than that in any era.
It is a fair discussion. Ultimately if the Giants produce a solid OL, improve the running game and the new weapons stay healthy he has to get this team more wins and have them strongly in contention for the division imo.
But the points against him are fair at this point. And while everyone says there can't be any excuses, there were plenty of excuses last year (injuries to his main weapons, himself, new OC, new offense, Pandemic-shortened preseason and so on).
If DJ can stay upright (OL) and half of his weapons can stay healthy, I think he' play well. But everyone knows he still has to prove it.
And all this stuff about Rodgers is BS. As good as Rodgers is, Judge isn't looking for a diva QB on the wrong side of 35.
Yeah, right. We all know you can't win with those old guys. oh wait . . .
If Rodgers was actually coming here, Judge would pick him up in California and drive him to the Stadium if need be.
When whoever the woman was said “Dallas has added talent to an already stout defense”
Dallas’s defense was 28th in the league last year. How do some of these people have jobs?
Exactly. We should cakewalk through this division and hit the playoffs or there should be an investigation. Washington has no qb and the first place schedule, the Eagles have . . . nothing and Dallas has no defense.
but saying Jones has a "huge canon for an arm" was very funny. And completely wrong.
I love the Kyle Brandt throwing up the Garner Minshew comp. Man, that was a perfect way to illustrate so many things why Jones has been a disappointment at the #6 pick.
was a "blind resume" in which they compared DJ to 6th round pick Gardner Minshew; whom the Jaguars were so thrilled to have, just invested a 1st overall pick to replace him.
Wonderful.
It was actually an argument against Jones.
Doesn't make it any less stupid.
How's this comparison:
DJ:
8-18 W/L record
62.1% Comp. %
35-22 TD-INT ratio
84.1 Passer Rating
QB2:
7-19 W/L record
55.1% Comp. %
20-35 TD-INT ratio
61.2 Passer Rating
QB2 is Troy Aikman.
Torture numbers and they'll confess to anything.
I'm glad that you noticed that too. Because I remember doing a look at Jones & Allen after 2 years. It would have been a lot better if Kyle Brandt put all three quarterbacks Silhouettes up and compare doll 3. So does this mean there's a chance of Gardner Minshew will turn in the same season that Josh Allen just have?
but saying Jones has a "huge canon for an arm" was very funny. And completely wrong.
I love the Kyle Brandt throwing up the Garner Minshew comp. Man, that was a perfect way to illustrate so many things why Jones has been a disappointment at the #6 pick.
In true fashion, you bash the positive that was given to Jones and embrace the negative.
And then wonder why you get called out so often.
RE: RE: It is being described more as an ultimatum year
than an optimistic 3rd year. How often do those types of things work out?
Exactly. Why is it on Jones to prove it in year 3?
Because he hasn't proven anything in years 1 & 2.
Weird that Jones setting a few rookie passing records is considered not proving anything. 24 passing td’s in just 12 games is nothing I guess. Had Jones played all 16 games he likely would have eclipsed 30td’s which would have set a new rookie TD record. The most 4 TD games is nothing either when you are throwing to stud receivers like Russell Shepard, Cody Latimer, Kaden Smith, etc.
but saying Jones has a "huge canon for an arm" was very funny. And completely wrong.
I love the Kyle Brandt throwing up the Garner Minshew comp. Man, that was a perfect way to illustrate so many things why Jones has been a disappointment at the #6 pick.
In true fashion, you bash the positive that was given to Jones and embrace the negative.
And then wonder why you get called out so often.
Sometimes the truth stings.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: So their best argument in favor of DJ
was a "blind resume" in which they compared DJ to 6th round pick Gardner Minshew; whom the Jaguars were so thrilled to have, just invested a 1st overall pick to replace him.
Wonderful.
It was actually an argument against Jones.
Doesn't make it any less stupid.
How's this comparison:
DJ:
8-18 W/L record
62.1% Comp. %
35-22 TD-INT ratio
84.1 Passer Rating
QB2:
7-19 W/L record
55.1% Comp. %
20-35 TD-INT ratio
61.2 Passer Rating
QB2 is Troy Aikman.
Torture numbers and they'll confess to anything.
Troy Aikman? Are you sure you didn't want to go back to Joe Namath and put up a QB3.
I just picked a HOF QB that popped into my head.
So use this guy if it makes you feel better:
11-12 W/L record
56.3% Comp. %
30-21 TD-INT ratio
76.6 Passer Rating
Josh Allen
Well, you're at least getting closer.
Now correct the Won-Loss record for Josh Allen. Put in all touchdowns (passing and running) and all turnovers. And toss in 4QTR comebacks and lets see what we have.
but saying Jones has a "huge canon for an arm" was very funny. And completely wrong.
I love the Kyle Brandt throwing up the Garner Minshew comp. Man, that was a perfect way to illustrate so many things why Jones has been a disappointment at the #6 pick.
In true fashion, you bash the positive that was given to Jones and embrace the negative.
And then wonder why you get called out so often.
Sometimes the truth stings.
The only "truth" I'm referring to is your continual dismissal of any positive statements about Jones while embracing negative takes as great points and great analysis.
He’s going to turn 38 during the 2021 season. That provides no future flexibility with roster building. Easy no for me there.
As for Jones, until proven otherwise he is a game manager who has some planned running ability. He needs to step up this year, but I’m not mortgaging all future draft capital for Rodgers.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: So their best argument in favor of DJ
was a "blind resume" in which they compared DJ to 6th round pick Gardner Minshew; whom the Jaguars were so thrilled to have, just invested a 1st overall pick to replace him.
Wonderful.
It was actually an argument against Jones.
Doesn't make it any less stupid.
How's this comparison:
DJ:
8-18 W/L record
62.1% Comp. %
35-22 TD-INT ratio
84.1 Passer Rating
QB2:
7-19 W/L record
55.1% Comp. %
20-35 TD-INT ratio
61.2 Passer Rating
QB2 is Troy Aikman.
Torture numbers and they'll confess to anything.
Troy Aikman? Are you sure you didn't want to go back to Joe Namath and put up a QB3.
I just picked a HOF QB that popped into my head.
So use this guy if it makes you feel better:
11-12 W/L record
56.3% Comp. %
30-21 TD-INT ratio
76.6 Passer Rating
Josh Allen
Well, you're at least getting closer.
Now correct the Won-Loss record for Josh Allen. Put in all touchdowns (passing and running) and all turnovers. And toss in 4QTR comebacks and lets see what we have.
You mean you agree that the comparison Brandt put up was dumb? Good.
Of course I went off of his basis and posted Allen's stats using that framework. Passing stats and W-L (which is a horrible QB metric) based on QB starts.
Can't recall seeing 4th quarter comebacks in Brandt's chart, so not sure why you're mentioning that.
Unless you're moving goalposts to fit a narrative. Nah...couldn't possibly be.
Not trying to move goal posts whatsover. Only suggesting
but saying Jones has a "huge canon for an arm" was very funny. And completely wrong.
I love the Kyle Brandt throwing up the Garner Minshew comp. Man, that was a perfect way to illustrate so many things why Jones has been a disappointment at the #6 pick.
In true fashion, you bash the positive that was given to Jones and embrace the negative.
And then wonder why you get called out so often.
Yes, by all means. Support the inaccurate positive comments on DJ, and bash the negative albeit accurate ones.
And then wonder why you get called a defender so often...
Different eras. I don't even think it's fair to compare current QBs to guys like Payton or Eli anymore.
What?? Your point is just idiotic. Pure stat comparison- yards now vs yards then, sure not an apt correlation or comparison. Com %, wins and losses, turnovers are all very relevant.
Hell, in an era where the ball was thrown far less Phil Simms threw 22 Ints, more ints than TDs in our SB year of 1986! If you were to extrapolate those numbers over a 16 games season in todays NFL, you would probably see at least 100 more pass attempts and thus Phil pushing 27-30 Ints..
It's idiotic to claim that Aaron Rodgers plays in a different NFL era than Joe Montana? Well, okay.
It's difficult enough to compare QBs in vastly different offenses. In other words, how does one compare passing stats of a guy like Phil Simms, playing primarily in 12 vs. Gillbride's Run-and-shoot in Houston? Or anyone Walsh's WC offense which heavily favored the short passing game?
Are you disputing the NFL had cracked down on clutching, grabbing and headhunting by DBs? Hits on QB's? Are you disputing that this has caused the NFL to evolve more into a passing league?
Dan Marino, arguably the best passer of the 80s and early 90s has a career completion percentage under 60%. Nowadays, guys get benched if they aren't completing 65% or greater and there were 17 QBs who were at 65% or better last season. Three QBs were over 70%.
Troy Aikman exceeded 20+ TDs just one time in his career - 1993. There were only 4 QBs that year to have 20 TDs passing. Steve Young les the league with 29. There were 19 different QBs who passed for 20 TDs last season. That's over 2/3 of the league's starting QBs. Aaron Rodgers led the league with 48 TDs - which would have been double Aikman's total in 1993.
What's idiotic is trying to compare players of different eras without providing context into how the game has evolved in the 30-40 years since.
I'm surprised no other team has traded for Minshew. I haven't really watched JAX but he put up 16-5 TD/INT in 8 starts this year. Pretty good stat line.
The only "truth" I'm referring to is your continual dismissal of any positive statements about Jones while embracing negative takes as great points and great analysis.
How does that "sting". It only exposes your bias
That's simply not true. I have written about Jones's attributes that I think fit today's game. His mobility, his ability to turn the corner, and his ability to make some pretty decent throws on the move. Just because you don't see them is something I can't control.
But it's always been obvious compared to you - and many others - that my expectations are much, much higher for Jones as the 6th pick in the draft. And when those expectations haven't been met, yes, I do harp on the poor performances and outcome.
I give some credibility to the circumstances - which haven't been great - but I don't give them the amount of weight some of you guys do. The lengths many of you go to excuse the poor play are really phenomenal to me.
never admit you’re wrong, give me a break! You’re both so biased against Jones it’s laughable. Both of you have the stance, the team screwed up, drafted a bum, he didn’t make the pro bowl season one so cut him, start over. Did I get that right.
Here’s my counter point.
Taking the fumbles out of the equation ( for just a minute), Jones was actually very good as a rookie. His completion %, yards, TD to INT ratio were all very good.
He goes into year two, new OC so new offense NO off season, poor supporting cast (which got infinitely worse when Barkley went down, and you can see why him or most ANY QB would struggle.
He still cut his fumbles down, less INT, and far less that were his fault.
Now, to be fair, he might still bust. You guys just dismiss ALL of this because your minds are already made up.
I’m still in a wait and see mode personally.
never admit you’re wrong, give me a break! You’re both so biased against Jones it’s laughable. Both of you have the stance, the team screwed up, drafted a bum, he didn’t make the pro bowl season one so cut him, start over. Did I get that right.
Here’s my counter point.
Taking the fumbles out of the equation ( for just a minute), Jones was actually very good as a rookie. His completion %, yards, TD to INT ratio were all very good.
He goes into year two, new OC so new offense NO off season, poor supporting cast (which got infinitely worse when Barkley went down, and you can see why him or most ANY QB would struggle.
He still cut his fumbles down, less INT, and far less that were his fault.
Now, to be fair, he might still bust. You guys just dismiss ALL of this because your minds are already made up.
I’m still in a wait and see mode personally.
A 2 to 1 TD/INT is not good in today's NFL. The average for 2019 QBs with more than 10 TDs was 2.85.
never admit you’re wrong, give me a break! You’re both so biased against Jones it’s laughable. Both of you have the stance, the team screwed up, drafted a bum, he didn’t make the pro bowl season one so cut him, start over. Did I get that right.
Here’s my counter point.
Taking the fumbles out of the equation ( for just a minute), Jones was actually very good as a rookie. His completion %, yards, TD to INT ratio were all very good.
He goes into year two, new OC so new offense NO off season, poor supporting cast (which got infinitely worse when Barkley went down, and you can see why him or most ANY QB would struggle.
He still cut his fumbles down, less INT, and far less that were his fault.
Now, to be fair, he might still bust. You guys just dismiss ALL of this because your minds are already made up.
I’m still in a wait and see mode personally.
but saying Jones has a "huge canon for an arm" was very funny. And completely wrong.
I love the Kyle Brandt throwing up the Garner Minshew comp. Man, that was a perfect way to illustrate so many things why Jones has been a disappointment at the #6 pick.
In true fashion, you bash the positive that was given to Jones and embrace the negative.
And then wonder why you get called out so often.
Yes, by all means. Support the inaccurate positive comments on DJ, and bash the negative albeit accurate ones.
And then wonder why you get called a defender so often...
Hey Clownshoes - please show me where I'm supporting any comments on Jones being made? Where did I talk about Schrager saying something nice and championing it? I'm referring to bw's comments - which you clearly missed in your zeal to contribute the usual nonsense here.
What I said way above is that the segment made it clear it is a make or break year.
This is why you're Jimmy Clownshoes - because you'll step into these discussions and not even know what the hell has been said
never admit you’re wrong, give me a break! You’re both so biased against Jones it’s laughable. Both of you have the stance, the team screwed up, drafted a bum, he didn’t make the pro bowl season one so cut him, start over. Did I get that right.
Here’s my counter point.
Taking the fumbles out of the equation ( for just a minute), Jones was actually very good as a rookie. His completion %, yards, TD to INT ratio were all very good.
He goes into year two, new OC so new offense NO off season, poor supporting cast (which got infinitely worse when Barkley went down, and you can see why him or most ANY QB would struggle.
He still cut his fumbles down, less INT, and far less that were his fault.
Now, to be fair, he might still bust. You guys just dismiss ALL of this because your minds are already made up.
I’m still in a wait and see mode personally.
and who put together that horrible, besides Barkley, supporting cast for DJ? But we should give DG the benefit of the doubt that he nailed the QB pick?
Everyone is in wait and see mode this year because DJ hasn't shown enough to be "the guy" but has shown enough flashes to get the opportunity. Speaking for myself here, i'm skeptical in large part because I don't trust DGs judgement from prior to JJ's arrival.
RE: Good debate and what I hoped we'd hear until the football
However, I was disappointed with the comparison. The comparison I thought they would give was between Jones and Josh Allen, this one seems to make the most sense. We are hoping that Jones can make the leap that Allen made in Year 3.
So, I had to waste some time to get some numbers for these QBs from their first 2 years:
even if its just for a minute (no offense but what does that even mean?). You can claim someone is biased and include a bias in your own counterargument.
Jones has a lot of athletic talent and all the personality intangibles. But his decision making has been suspect, the turnovers are a deal breaker, and he's also failed to elevate his team thus far. And thats what you need out of 6th overall pick at the position.
I genuinely like the guy and I hope he lights it up this year. I think everyone does. I don't buy that there are people here who would rather be right than see the team succeed, regardless of how heated, and at times petty, these debates can be. Gun toxmy head I think they're looking for a new QB next spring (or should be). Simply because to sign off on him being The Guy he's got to be exceptional. Top 5. Anything less and you cant justify a 2nd contract. My fear is that he has another season that is ultimately middling despite some flashes and they commit to another year.
never admit you’re wrong, give me a break! You’re both so biased against Jones it’s laughable. Both of you have the stance, the team screwed up, drafted a bum, he didn’t make the pro bowl season one so cut him, start over. Did I get that right.
Here’s my counter point.
Taking the fumbles out of the equation ( for just a minute), Jones was actually very good as a rookie. His completion %, yards, TD to INT ratio were all very good.
He goes into year two, new OC so new offense NO off season, poor supporting cast (which got infinitely worse when Barkley went down, and you can see why him or most ANY QB would struggle.
He still cut his fumbles down, less INT, and far less that were his fault.
Now, to be fair, he might still bust. You guys just dismiss ALL of this because your minds are already made up.
I’m still in a wait and see mode personally.
I don't mind admitting I was not fond of the selection of Jones. I thought he was over-drafted and should have been a second round prospect. And thus far, unfortunately, it looks like Jones isn't an elite QB prospect that one would expect from a high investment.
You name the metric you want to use. None of them are very flattering at this point. And since you brought up TD/INT ratio, Jones's aggregated total is 35/22, or 1.6. Sorry, but that's not very good in today's NFL. And his 2.4 INT% is pretty poor, too.
In his rookie year, his INT % was 2.6. Again, not very good.
And a 2:1 TD/INT ratio is decent, but nothing more than that...
but saying Jones has a "huge canon for an arm" was very funny. And completely wrong.
I love the Kyle Brandt throwing up the Garner Minshew comp. Man, that was a perfect way to illustrate so many things why Jones has been a disappointment at the #6 pick.
In true fashion, you bash the positive that was given to Jones and embrace the negative.
And then wonder why you get called out so often.
Yes, by all means. Support the inaccurate positive comments on DJ, and bash the negative albeit accurate ones.
And then wonder why you get called a defender so often...
Hey Clownshoes - please show me where I'm supporting any comments on Jones being made? Where did I talk about Schrager saying something nice and championing it? I'm referring to bw's comments - which you clearly missed in your zeal to contribute the usual nonsense here.
Hey comic relief - right above in your smart ass remark to bw. Second time we have noted your reading issues as of late. Try to keep up if you are looking to berate and ridicule.
even if its just for a minute (no offense but what does that even mean?). You can claim someone is biased and include a bias in your own counterargument.
Jones has a lot of athletic talent and all the personality intangibles. But his decision making has been suspect, the turnovers are a deal breaker, and he's also failed to elevate his team thus far. And thats what you need out of 6th overall pick at the position.
I genuinely like the guy and I hope he lights it up this year. I think everyone does. I don't buy that there are people here who would rather be right than see the team succeed, regardless of how heated, and at times petty, these debates can be. Gun toxmy head I think they're looking for a new QB next spring (or should be). Simply because to sign off on him being The Guy he's got to be exceptional. Top 5. Anything less and you cant justify a 2nd contract. My fear is that he has another season that is ultimately middling despite some flashes and they commit to another year.
Agree rud on basically all points in here.
I support a 3rd year for DJ but really enjoyed the "just take out the fumbles" comment too...compelling
Daniel Jones hasn't shown enough to keep the Giants out of any quarterback trade discussions. I wrote in my column last week about how quarterbacks who start their careers with two below-par seasons across their first three years have struggled to turn into viable pro starters afterwards. Jones already has those two dismal seasons before even making it to Year 3. He has struggled to stay healthy, cost the Giants dearly with turnover problems and hasn't shown any sort of natural feel for dealing with the pass rush. He wouldn't net more than a midround pick at this point, and it's difficult to see the Packers wanting him back as part of this deal.
That’s on his new Aaron Rodgers trades article on ESPN.com
New York Giants' moves in draft put more pressure on Daniel Jones | Pro Football Talk | NBC Sports - ( New Window )
Daniel Jones needs to prove this year he's the guy.
If DJ can stay upright (OL) and half of his weapons can stay healthy, I think he' play well. But everyone knows he still has to prove it.
And all this stuff about Rodgers is BS. As good as Rodgers is, Judge isn't looking for a diva QB on the wrong side of 35.
I really do.
Who the fuck cares what I think.
Do or die time.
Prove it on the field.
I really hope he proves everybody wrong this year.
I really hope he proves everybody wrong this year.
Same here.
That would be a win-win-win. DJ, The Giants, and the fans.
Wonderful.
Wonderful.
Yeah I am pretty sure that was NOT "in favor" of Daniel Jones... lol
Wonderful.
It was actually an argument against Jones.
I believe Jones is going to do great.
Quote:
was a "blind resume" in which they compared DJ to 6th round pick Gardner Minshew; whom the Jaguars were so thrilled to have, just invested a 1st overall pick to replace him.
Wonderful.
It was actually an argument against Jones.
Doesn't make it any less stupid.
How's this comparison:
DJ:
8-18 W/L record
62.1% Comp. %
35-22 TD-INT ratio
84.1 Passer Rating
QB2:
7-19 W/L record
55.1% Comp. %
20-35 TD-INT ratio
61.2 Passer Rating
QB2 is Troy Aikman.
Torture numbers and they'll confess to anything.
Exactly. Why is it on Jones to prove it in year 3?
Because he hasn't proven anything in years 1 & 2.
However, I was disappointed with the comparison. The comparison I thought they would give was between Jones and Josh Allen, this one seems to make the most sense. We are hoping that Jones can make the leap that Allen made in Year 3.
So, I had to waste some time to get some numbers for these QBs from their first 2 years:
Josh Allen:
Comp% = about 56% (rough estimate)
Yards = 5,163
TDs = 30
Ints = 21
QB Rating = about 77 (rough estimate)
Daniel Jones:
Comp% = 62.2%
Yards = 5,970
TDs = 35
Ints = 22
QB Rating = about 84 (rough estimate)
--------------------------
So, we just saw a QB take a big leap in year 3 when his team provided him weapons. Let's hope we see the same, big jump, for Daniel Jones!
I hear that. Point is, it's a dumb exercise. It's picking a QB where the stats fit the narrative and not one where it doesn't.
Regardless, I think everyone is on the same page that this is DJ's make or break year.
Quote:
In comment 15253418 PwndPapi said:
Quote:
was a "blind resume" in which they compared DJ to 6th round pick Gardner Minshew; whom the Jaguars were so thrilled to have, just invested a 1st overall pick to replace him.
Wonderful.
It was actually an argument against Jones.
Doesn't make it any less stupid.
How's this comparison:
DJ:
8-18 W/L record
62.1% Comp. %
35-22 TD-INT ratio
84.1 Passer Rating
QB2:
7-19 W/L record
55.1% Comp. %
20-35 TD-INT ratio
61.2 Passer Rating
QB2 is Troy Aikman.
Torture numbers and they'll confess to anything.
Troy Aikman? Are you sure you didn't want to go back to Joe Namath and put up a QB3.
Dallas’s defense was 28th in the league last year. How do some of these people have jobs?
Dallas’s defense was 28th in the league last year. How do some of these people have jobs?
Quote:
In comment 15253428 Lionhart28 said:
Quote:
In comment 15253418 PwndPapi said:
Quote:
was a "blind resume" in which they compared DJ to 6th round pick Gardner Minshew; whom the Jaguars were so thrilled to have, just invested a 1st overall pick to replace him.
Wonderful.
It was actually an argument against Jones.
Doesn't make it any less stupid.
How's this comparison:
DJ:
8-18 W/L record
62.1% Comp. %
35-22 TD-INT ratio
84.1 Passer Rating
QB2:
7-19 W/L record
55.1% Comp. %
20-35 TD-INT ratio
61.2 Passer Rating
QB2 is Troy Aikman.
Torture numbers and they'll confess to anything.
Troy Aikman? Are you sure you didn't want to go back to Joe Namath and put up a QB3.
I just picked a HOF QB that popped into my head.
So use this guy if it makes you feel better:
11-12 W/L record
56.3% Comp. %
30-21 TD-INT ratio
76.6 Passer Rating
Josh Allen
What?? Your point is just idiotic. Pure stat comparison- yards now vs yards then, sure not an apt correlation or comparison. Com %, wins and losses, turnovers are all very relevant.
Hell, in an era where the ball was thrown far less Phil Simms threw 22 Ints, more ints than TDs in our SB year of 1986! If you were to extrapolate those numbers over a 16 games season in todays NFL, you would probably see at least 100 more pass attempts and thus Phil pushing 27-30 Ints..
I want them to be creative getting the ball to the playmakers. If Garret is stubborn, let Kitchens do it. You really need big plays in today's NFL. A healthy Barkley, Toney and Golloday are so much greater than we we had last year, it isn't worth a comparison. EE might actually be able to something when he isn't the focus.
Looking forward to seeing what he does, should be a fun season.
Quote:
Different eras. I don't even think it's fair to compare current QBs to guys like Payton or Eli anymore.
What?? Your point is just idiotic. Pure stat comparison- yards now vs yards then, sure not an apt correlation or comparison. Com %, wins and losses, turnovers are all very relevant.
Hell, in an era where the ball was thrown far less Phil Simms threw 22 Ints, more ints than TDs in our SB year of 1986! If you were to extrapolate those numbers over a 16 games season in todays NFL, you would probably see at least 100 more pass attempts and thus Phil pushing 27-30 Ints..
What's this?
It is a fair discussion. Ultimately if the Giants produce a solid OL, improve the running game and the new weapons stay healthy he has to get this team more wins and have them strongly in contention for the division imo.
If DJ can stay upright (OL) and half of his weapons can stay healthy, I think he' play well. But everyone knows he still has to prove it.
And all this stuff about Rodgers is BS. As good as Rodgers is, Judge isn't looking for a diva QB on the wrong side of 35.
If Rodgers was actually coming here, Judge would pick him up in California and drive him to the Stadium if need be.
Dallas’s defense was 28th in the league last year. How do some of these people have jobs?
I love the Kyle Brandt throwing up the Garner Minshew comp. Man, that was a perfect way to illustrate so many things why Jones has been a disappointment at the #6 pick.
Quote:
In comment 15253418 PwndPapi said:
Quote:
was a "blind resume" in which they compared DJ to 6th round pick Gardner Minshew; whom the Jaguars were so thrilled to have, just invested a 1st overall pick to replace him.
Wonderful.
It was actually an argument against Jones.
Doesn't make it any less stupid.
How's this comparison:
DJ:
8-18 W/L record
62.1% Comp. %
35-22 TD-INT ratio
84.1 Passer Rating
QB2:
7-19 W/L record
55.1% Comp. %
20-35 TD-INT ratio
61.2 Passer Rating
QB2 is Troy Aikman.
Torture numbers and they'll confess to anything.
I'm glad that you noticed that too. Because I remember doing a look at Jones & Allen after 2 years. It would have been a lot better if Kyle Brandt put all three quarterbacks Silhouettes up and compare doll 3. So does this mean there's a chance of Gardner Minshew will turn in the same season that Josh Allen just have?
I love the Kyle Brandt throwing up the Garner Minshew comp. Man, that was a perfect way to illustrate so many things why Jones has been a disappointment at the #6 pick.
In true fashion, you bash the positive that was given to Jones and embrace the negative.
And then wonder why you get called out so often.
Quote:
than an optimistic 3rd year. How often do those types of things work out?
Exactly. Why is it on Jones to prove it in year 3?
Because he hasn't proven anything in years 1 & 2.
Weird that Jones setting a few rookie passing records is considered not proving anything. 24 passing td’s in just 12 games is nothing I guess. Had Jones played all 16 games he likely would have eclipsed 30td’s which would have set a new rookie TD record. The most 4 TD games is nothing either when you are throwing to stud receivers like Russell Shepard, Cody Latimer, Kaden Smith, etc.
Quote:
but saying Jones has a "huge canon for an arm" was very funny. And completely wrong.
I love the Kyle Brandt throwing up the Garner Minshew comp. Man, that was a perfect way to illustrate so many things why Jones has been a disappointment at the #6 pick.
In true fashion, you bash the positive that was given to Jones and embrace the negative.
And then wonder why you get called out so often.
Sometimes the truth stings.
Quote:
In comment 15253445 HMunster said:
Quote:
In comment 15253428 Lionhart28 said:
Quote:
In comment 15253418 PwndPapi said:
Quote:
was a "blind resume" in which they compared DJ to 6th round pick Gardner Minshew; whom the Jaguars were so thrilled to have, just invested a 1st overall pick to replace him.
Wonderful.
It was actually an argument against Jones.
Doesn't make it any less stupid.
How's this comparison:
DJ:
8-18 W/L record
62.1% Comp. %
35-22 TD-INT ratio
84.1 Passer Rating
QB2:
7-19 W/L record
55.1% Comp. %
20-35 TD-INT ratio
61.2 Passer Rating
QB2 is Troy Aikman.
Torture numbers and they'll confess to anything.
Troy Aikman? Are you sure you didn't want to go back to Joe Namath and put up a QB3.
I just picked a HOF QB that popped into my head.
So use this guy if it makes you feel better:
11-12 W/L record
56.3% Comp. %
30-21 TD-INT ratio
76.6 Passer Rating
Josh Allen
Well, you're at least getting closer.
Now correct the Won-Loss record for Josh Allen. Put in all touchdowns (passing and running) and all turnovers. And toss in 4QTR comebacks and lets see what we have.
Quote:
In comment 15253583 bw in dc said:
Quote:
but saying Jones has a "huge canon for an arm" was very funny. And completely wrong.
I love the Kyle Brandt throwing up the Garner Minshew comp. Man, that was a perfect way to illustrate so many things why Jones has been a disappointment at the #6 pick.
In true fashion, you bash the positive that was given to Jones and embrace the negative.
And then wonder why you get called out so often.
Sometimes the truth stings.
The only "truth" I'm referring to is your continual dismissal of any positive statements about Jones while embracing negative takes as great points and great analysis.
How does that "sting". It only exposes your bias
I don't hide from any of my opinions - right or wrong. And embrace the opportunity to defend my positions or admit error.
As for Jones, until proven otherwise he is a game manager who has some planned running ability. He needs to step up this year, but I’m not mortgaging all future draft capital for Rodgers.
Quote:
In comment 15253481 NYGgolfer said:
Quote:
In comment 15253445 HMunster said:
Quote:
In comment 15253428 Lionhart28 said:
Quote:
In comment 15253418 PwndPapi said:
Quote:
was a "blind resume" in which they compared DJ to 6th round pick Gardner Minshew; whom the Jaguars were so thrilled to have, just invested a 1st overall pick to replace him.
Wonderful.
It was actually an argument against Jones.
Doesn't make it any less stupid.
How's this comparison:
DJ:
8-18 W/L record
62.1% Comp. %
35-22 TD-INT ratio
84.1 Passer Rating
QB2:
7-19 W/L record
55.1% Comp. %
20-35 TD-INT ratio
61.2 Passer Rating
QB2 is Troy Aikman.
Torture numbers and they'll confess to anything.
Troy Aikman? Are you sure you didn't want to go back to Joe Namath and put up a QB3.
I just picked a HOF QB that popped into my head.
So use this guy if it makes you feel better:
11-12 W/L record
56.3% Comp. %
30-21 TD-INT ratio
76.6 Passer Rating
Josh Allen
Well, you're at least getting closer.
Now correct the Won-Loss record for Josh Allen. Put in all touchdowns (passing and running) and all turnovers. And toss in 4QTR comebacks and lets see what we have.
You mean you agree that the comparison Brandt put up was dumb? Good.
Of course I went off of his basis and posted Allen's stats using that framework. Passing stats and W-L (which is a horrible QB metric) based on QB starts.
Can't recall seeing 4th quarter comebacks in Brandt's chart, so not sure why you're mentioning that.
Unless you're moving goalposts to fit a narrative. Nah...couldn't possibly be.
Quote:
but saying Jones has a "huge canon for an arm" was very funny. And completely wrong.
I love the Kyle Brandt throwing up the Garner Minshew comp. Man, that was a perfect way to illustrate so many things why Jones has been a disappointment at the #6 pick.
In true fashion, you bash the positive that was given to Jones and embrace the negative.
And then wonder why you get called out so often.
Yes, by all means. Support the inaccurate positive comments on DJ, and bash the negative albeit accurate ones.
And then wonder why you get called a defender so often...
Quote:
Different eras. I don't even think it's fair to compare current QBs to guys like Payton or Eli anymore.
What?? Your point is just idiotic. Pure stat comparison- yards now vs yards then, sure not an apt correlation or comparison. Com %, wins and losses, turnovers are all very relevant.
Hell, in an era where the ball was thrown far less Phil Simms threw 22 Ints, more ints than TDs in our SB year of 1986! If you were to extrapolate those numbers over a 16 games season in todays NFL, you would probably see at least 100 more pass attempts and thus Phil pushing 27-30 Ints..
It's idiotic to claim that Aaron Rodgers plays in a different NFL era than Joe Montana? Well, okay.
It's difficult enough to compare QBs in vastly different offenses. In other words, how does one compare passing stats of a guy like Phil Simms, playing primarily in 12 vs. Gillbride's Run-and-shoot in Houston? Or anyone Walsh's WC offense which heavily favored the short passing game?
Are you disputing the NFL had cracked down on clutching, grabbing and headhunting by DBs? Hits on QB's? Are you disputing that this has caused the NFL to evolve more into a passing league?
Dan Marino, arguably the best passer of the 80s and early 90s has a career completion percentage under 60%. Nowadays, guys get benched if they aren't completing 65% or greater and there were 17 QBs who were at 65% or better last season. Three QBs were over 70%.
Troy Aikman exceeded 20+ TDs just one time in his career - 1993. There were only 4 QBs that year to have 20 TDs passing. Steve Young les the league with 29. There were 19 different QBs who passed for 20 TDs last season. That's over 2/3 of the league's starting QBs. Aaron Rodgers led the league with 48 TDs - which would have been double Aikman's total in 1993.
What's idiotic is trying to compare players of different eras without providing context into how the game has evolved in the 30-40 years since.
Sometimes the truth stings.
The only "truth" I'm referring to is your continual dismissal of any positive statements about Jones while embracing negative takes as great points and great analysis.
How does that "sting". It only exposes your bias
That's simply not true. I have written about Jones's attributes that I think fit today's game. His mobility, his ability to turn the corner, and his ability to make some pretty decent throws on the move. Just because you don't see them is something I can't control.
But it's always been obvious compared to you - and many others - that my expectations are much, much higher for Jones as the 6th pick in the draft. And when those expectations haven't been met, yes, I do harp on the poor performances and outcome.
I give some credibility to the circumstances - which haven't been great - but I don't give them the amount of weight some of you guys do. The lengths many of you go to excuse the poor play are really phenomenal to me.
No protection
Weapons not getting open.
Even with the Best QB in the game...and far better weapons.
How many TD’s did PM throw...0
How many int did PM throw.....2
Who here thinks KC should look for a New QB?
it doesn’t matter who your QB is if you don’t block and your weapons don’t get open.
Here’s my counter point.
Taking the fumbles out of the equation ( for just a minute), Jones was actually very good as a rookie. His completion %, yards, TD to INT ratio were all very good.
He goes into year two, new OC so new offense NO off season, poor supporting cast (which got infinitely worse when Barkley went down, and you can see why him or most ANY QB would struggle.
He still cut his fumbles down, less INT, and far less that were his fault.
Now, to be fair, he might still bust. You guys just dismiss ALL of this because your minds are already made up.
I’m still in a wait and see mode personally.
Here’s my counter point.
Taking the fumbles out of the equation ( for just a minute), Jones was actually very good as a rookie. His completion %, yards, TD to INT ratio were all very good.
He goes into year two, new OC so new offense NO off season, poor supporting cast (which got infinitely worse when Barkley went down, and you can see why him or most ANY QB would struggle.
He still cut his fumbles down, less INT, and far less that were his fault.
Now, to be fair, he might still bust. You guys just dismiss ALL of this because your minds are already made up.
I’m still in a wait and see mode personally.
A 2 to 1 TD/INT is not good in today's NFL. The average for 2019 QBs with more than 10 TDs was 2.85.
Here’s my counter point.
Taking the fumbles out of the equation ( for just a minute), Jones was actually very good as a rookie. His completion %, yards, TD to INT ratio were all very good.
He goes into year two, new OC so new offense NO off season, poor supporting cast (which got infinitely worse when Barkley went down, and you can see why him or most ANY QB would struggle.
He still cut his fumbles down, less INT, and far less that were his fault.
Now, to be fair, he might still bust. You guys just dismiss ALL of this because your minds are already made up.
I’m still in a wait and see mode personally.
Stop making sense Dave
Quote:
In comment 15253583 bw in dc said:
Quote:
but saying Jones has a "huge canon for an arm" was very funny. And completely wrong.
I love the Kyle Brandt throwing up the Garner Minshew comp. Man, that was a perfect way to illustrate so many things why Jones has been a disappointment at the #6 pick.
In true fashion, you bash the positive that was given to Jones and embrace the negative.
And then wonder why you get called out so often.
Yes, by all means. Support the inaccurate positive comments on DJ, and bash the negative albeit accurate ones.
And then wonder why you get called a defender so often...
Hey Clownshoes - please show me where I'm supporting any comments on Jones being made? Where did I talk about Schrager saying something nice and championing it? I'm referring to bw's comments - which you clearly missed in your zeal to contribute the usual nonsense here.
What I said way above is that the segment made it clear it is a make or break year.
This is why you're Jimmy Clownshoes - because you'll step into these discussions and not even know what the hell has been said
Here’s my counter point.
Taking the fumbles out of the equation ( for just a minute), Jones was actually very good as a rookie. His completion %, yards, TD to INT ratio were all very good.
He goes into year two, new OC so new offense NO off season, poor supporting cast (which got infinitely worse when Barkley went down, and you can see why him or most ANY QB would struggle.
He still cut his fumbles down, less INT, and far less that were his fault.
Now, to be fair, he might still bust. You guys just dismiss ALL of this because your minds are already made up.
I’m still in a wait and see mode personally.
and who put together that horrible, besides Barkley, supporting cast for DJ? But we should give DG the benefit of the doubt that he nailed the QB pick?
Everyone is in wait and see mode this year because DJ hasn't shown enough to be "the guy" but has shown enough flashes to get the opportunity. Speaking for myself here, i'm skeptical in large part because I don't trust DGs judgement from prior to JJ's arrival.
However, I was disappointed with the comparison. The comparison I thought they would give was between Jones and Josh Allen, this one seems to make the most sense. We are hoping that Jones can make the leap that Allen made in Year 3.
So, I had to waste some time to get some numbers for these QBs from their first 2 years:
Josh Allen:
Comp% = about 56% (rough estimate)
Yards = 5,163
TDs = 30
Ints = 21
QB Rating = about 77 (rough estimate)
Daniel Jones:
Comp% = 62.2%
Yards = 5,970
TDs = 35
Ints = 22
QB Rating = about 84 (rough estimate)
--------------------------
So, we just saw a QB take a big leap in year 3 when his team provided him weapons. Let's hope we see the same, big jump, for Daniel Jones!
Thanks man! You nailed that one!! Perfect comp and I really think DJ is going to play super well this year
Jones has a lot of athletic talent and all the personality intangibles. But his decision making has been suspect, the turnovers are a deal breaker, and he's also failed to elevate his team thus far. And thats what you need out of 6th overall pick at the position.
I genuinely like the guy and I hope he lights it up this year. I think everyone does. I don't buy that there are people here who would rather be right than see the team succeed, regardless of how heated, and at times petty, these debates can be. Gun toxmy head I think they're looking for a new QB next spring (or should be). Simply because to sign off on him being The Guy he's got to be exceptional. Top 5. Anything less and you cant justify a 2nd contract. My fear is that he has another season that is ultimately middling despite some flashes and they commit to another year.
Here’s my counter point.
Taking the fumbles out of the equation ( for just a minute), Jones was actually very good as a rookie. His completion %, yards, TD to INT ratio were all very good.
He goes into year two, new OC so new offense NO off season, poor supporting cast (which got infinitely worse when Barkley went down, and you can see why him or most ANY QB would struggle.
He still cut his fumbles down, less INT, and far less that were his fault.
Now, to be fair, he might still bust. You guys just dismiss ALL of this because your minds are already made up.
I’m still in a wait and see mode personally.
I don't mind admitting I was not fond of the selection of Jones. I thought he was over-drafted and should have been a second round prospect. And thus far, unfortunately, it looks like Jones isn't an elite QB prospect that one would expect from a high investment.
You name the metric you want to use. None of them are very flattering at this point. And since you brought up TD/INT ratio, Jones's aggregated total is 35/22, or 1.6. Sorry, but that's not very good in today's NFL. And his 2.4 INT% is pretty poor, too.
In his rookie year, his INT % was 2.6. Again, not very good.
And a 2:1 TD/INT ratio is decent, but nothing more than that...
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In comment 15253588 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15253583 bw in dc said:
Quote:
but saying Jones has a "huge canon for an arm" was very funny. And completely wrong.
I love the Kyle Brandt throwing up the Garner Minshew comp. Man, that was a perfect way to illustrate so many things why Jones has been a disappointment at the #6 pick.
In true fashion, you bash the positive that was given to Jones and embrace the negative.
And then wonder why you get called out so often.
Yes, by all means. Support the inaccurate positive comments on DJ, and bash the negative albeit accurate ones.
And then wonder why you get called a defender so often...
Hey Clownshoes - please show me where I'm supporting any comments on Jones being made? Where did I talk about Schrager saying something nice and championing it? I'm referring to bw's comments - which you clearly missed in your zeal to contribute the usual nonsense here.
Hey comic relief - right above in your smart ass remark to bw. Second time we have noted your reading issues as of late. Try to keep up if you are looking to berate and ridicule.
Or you know where the escape hatch is...
Jones has a lot of athletic talent and all the personality intangibles. But his decision making has been suspect, the turnovers are a deal breaker, and he's also failed to elevate his team thus far. And thats what you need out of 6th overall pick at the position.
I genuinely like the guy and I hope he lights it up this year. I think everyone does. I don't buy that there are people here who would rather be right than see the team succeed, regardless of how heated, and at times petty, these debates can be. Gun toxmy head I think they're looking for a new QB next spring (or should be). Simply because to sign off on him being The Guy he's got to be exceptional. Top 5. Anything less and you cant justify a 2nd contract. My fear is that he has another season that is ultimately middling despite some flashes and they commit to another year.
Agree rud on basically all points in here.
I support a 3rd year for DJ but really enjoyed the "just take out the fumbles" comment too...compelling
Too soon to project. I’m sure there will be players who rise up the board after the college season like Burrow & Wilson did.
That’s on his new Aaron Rodgers trades article on ESPN.com