As Bill Parcells said - "You are what your record says you are" ....
Super Bowl LV was the most resounding testament to the importance of good O-line/ D-line performance. 43 year-old Tom Brady (enjoying a late season O-line performance boost) had all night to pick apart a good KC defense. 25 year-old Super-star Patrick Mahomes was running for his life (playing behind a seriously depleted injured O-line)
Here’s a selected statistical sample of how our O-line stacks up against he NFL, specifically the Tampa Bay Bucs (for the 2020 season)…
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29939464/2020-nfl-pass-rushing-run-stopping-blocking-leaderboard-win-rate-rankings
Team Pass Rush Win Rate - Steelers 54%, Bucs 49%, Giants (last) 31%
Team Run Stop Win Rate - Jets 33%, Bucs 32%, Giants (13th) 30%
Team Pass Block Win Rate - Packers 74%, Bucs 57%, Giants (last) 46%
Team Run Block Win Rate - Packers 74%, Bucs 70%, Giants 70%
Highest Pass Block Win Rate AS Guard - (5th) Ali Marpet, Bucs
Highest Pass Block Win Rate As Center - (8th) Ryan Jensen, Bucs
Highest Run Block Win Rate As Tackle - (5th) Andrew Thomas, Giants
Highest Run Block Win Rate As Guard - (2nd) Will Hernandez, Giants
Highest Run Block Win Rate As Guard - (9th) - Ali Marpet, Bucs
Bottom-line - Even though the Bucs had talented players on the O-line, they under-performed early, but pulled it together when it counted and collected a Lombardi Trophy. We can do the same.
but, I really think they are over analyzing the game of Football?
According to these numbers we have 2 of the best run blockers in the league? Or, am I reading it wrong.
Just have to work on pass blocking to give DJ a chance.
Link - ( New Window )
Found this article on the same site ....
Someone might have already linked it - that is why I did not start a separate thread.
"This [2021] draft right now ... you have more unknowns than you can shake a stick at. You have kids that didn't play this year. You have a lot of incomplete medical information. It's really kind of an odd draft class. It's an odd year," Gettleman said. "The NCAA allowed all those players to get another year and a ton of them did. One of the SEC schools, they had 13 kids decide to go back and play next year, 13 kids that could have been in this draft. That was pretty heavy throughout the Power 5 conferences."
"We really have a feeling that next year's draft is going to be really strong, and [adding 2022 draft picks] just gives you options."
Makes me even more excited about the extra picks for next year's draft.
Jordan Ranaan - ( New Window )
2nd in the NFL in run block win rate behind Quenton Nelson and just ahead of Zack Martin.
Can we just take in the fact we currently have 3 2nd year players penciled in to start on the OL, and their rookie years were limited in terms of practice due to Covid (as is their 2nd year a bit as well). Oh and btw-- those 3 guys are guys we're NOT worried about going into the season-- we're more worried about Hernandez than anyone it sounds like. I think those young guys all showed great promise, but you're lying if that statement about 3 2nd-year OL alone doesn't freak you out just a little bit.
It's gonna be awful if for the 5th year in a row we start the season and on the very first run play Saquon is hit 5 yards behind the LOS, and then they go to throw it and Jones is under pressure before he even finishes his drop back. At this point it's become a regular tradition. (I know Saquon and DJ haven't been here 5 years but I'm saying this has been a regular tradition since 2017 and it would be great to actually see some competent OL play in WEEK ONE for a change).
Can we just take in the fact we currently have 3 2nd year players penciled in to start on the OL, and their rookie years were limited in terms of practice due to Covid (as is their 2nd year a bit as well). Oh and btw-- those 3 guys are guys we're NOT worried about going into the season-- we're more worried about Hernandez than anyone it sounds like. I think those young guys all showed great promise, but you're lying if that statement about 3 2nd-year OL alone doesn't freak you out just a little bit.
It's gonna be awful if for the 5th year in a row we start the season and on the very first run play Saquon is hit 5 yards behind the LOS, and then they go to throw it and Jones is under pressure before he even finishes his drop back. At this point it's become a regular tradition. (I know Saquon and DJ haven't been here 5 years but I'm saying this has been a regular tradition since 2017 and it would be great to actually see some competent OL play in WEEK ONE for a change).
Go back to bed and sleep it off
2nd in the NFL in run block win rate behind Quenton Nelson and just ahead of Zack Martin.
Tell it to Joe Judge, who benched him.
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Who says Will Hernandez sucks, and was terrible at run blocking, aught to check your link.
2nd in the NFL in run block win rate behind Quenton Nelson and just ahead of Zack Martin.
Tell it to Joe Judge, who benched him.
This is not directed to Greg - just my musings...
Why did he get benched? Have not heard a thing - not a whisper. We think he can play better, true. I think most of us thought Darnay Holmes played decently and many pundits praised him. Yet, Rico through his sources, said the staff was down on Holmes. So why did Hernandez sit? No word. It seems his run blocking was very good by the metrics. He was certainly better than Lemieux pass blocking. Bob Skinner says Hernandez is much better than Lemieux. So why is he sitting? Why do you bench the better player, but then not go out and find an upgrade or cut him? If Hernandez was that bad, wouldn't one of the reporters hear something? I may have missed it, but was anything hinted at as to the staff's displeasure?
Are they sending him a message? Was he missing his assignments that made Thomas and Gates miss theirs? Judge does not mince words and he is not coy. It is sort of baffling.
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In comment 15254204 allstarjim said:
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Who says Will Hernandez sucks, and was terrible at run blocking, aught to check your link.
2nd in the NFL in run block win rate behind Quenton Nelson and just ahead of Zack Martin.
Tell it to Joe Judge, who benched him.
This is not directed to Greg - just my musings...
Why did he get benched? Have not heard a thing - not a whisper. We think he can play better, true. I think most of us thought Darnay Holmes played decently and many pundits praised him. Yet, Rico through his sources, said the staff was down on Holmes. So why did Hernandez sit? No word. It seems his run blocking was very good by the metrics. He was certainly better than Lemieux pass blocking. Bob Skinner says Hernandez is much better than Lemieux. So why is he sitting? Why do you bench the better player, but then not go out and find an upgrade or cut him? If Hernandez was that bad, wouldn't one of the reporters hear something? I may have missed it, but was anything hinted at as to the staff's displeasure?
Are they sending him a message? Was he missing his assignments that made Thomas and Gates miss theirs? Judge does not mince words and he is not coy. It is sort of baffling.
Do we ever see a coach or team is going come out and say.. THIS is the reason why we sat a player??
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Who says Will Hernandez sucks, and was terrible at run blocking, aught to check your link.
2nd in the NFL in run block win rate behind Quenton Nelson and just ahead of Zack Martin.
Tell it to Joe Judge, who benched him.
You would think that with Thomas and Hernandez next to each other, we would have had bigger holes to run through. Saquon, especially, should have done better when he was there.
I do feel like the Giants addressed the defensive side of the ball in the off season so I would expect significant improvement in 2021. Glad to see both Hernandez and Thomas in top ten so perhaps the narrative that the OL is better than the fans think is true. But to not make any changes or additions to the OL with these stats seems like a huge risk.
Do we ever see a coach or team is going come out and say.. THIS is the reason why we sat a player??
Not when it is obvious. When metrics say Hernandez is better, why is Lemeiux playing? The reporters eventually hear why players are sitting. There are hints, they hear things. (of course they were not in the lockerroom last season so there is that)
Coaches do not come out and say Player X is bad so we are playing Player Y. But there are hints or the staff will say Player Y gives us a better chance than Player X.
My point is there appear to be no solid reasons. Is Lemieux better than Hernandez - well I doubt Judge sits a better player without a reason. They certainly did not try to replace him or cut him - is Fulton an upgrade??
He got it after Lemieux started playing.
All this OP proves is what has always been true: no matter who the QB is, if your OL sucks he will be ineffective. Mahomes is a great player, but when their OL fell apart, he looked like shit running for his life like anybody else would in the same situation.
All this OP proves is what has always been true: no matter who the QB is, if your OL sucks he will be ineffective. Mahomes is a great player, but when their OL fell apart, he looked like shit running for his life like anybody else would in the same situation.
With the exception of the Pats’ last scoring drive in SB XLII which Spags said was his fault (eased up on the gas pedal), Brady was rather mediocre imv, when faced with our constant pressure..
2. You can't run if you can't pass. The Defense will stack the line of scrimmage and dare you to pass.
If you can't pass and you can't run, you won't score enough points to win. Okay, that was three things.
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Didn’t he have COVID during the season? If that’s correct we are lucky we got anything out of him. He is clearly one of our top guards.
He got it after Lemieux started playing.
Lemieux started his 1st game against Tampa on Nov.2nd.
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Didn’t he have COVID during the season? If that’s correct we are lucky we got anything out of him. He is clearly one of our top guards.
He got it after Lemieux started playing.
That's not true. Hernandez was starting and had a couple of really good games just prior to getting COVID (along with Peart). Both were mostly ineffective afterwards.
Lemieux wasn't starting until after the COVID hit
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In comment 15254254 Giant John said:
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Didn’t he have COVID during the season? If that’s correct we are lucky we got anything out of him. He is clearly one of our top guards.
He got it after Lemieux started playing.
It was announced that WH had C19 on October 29th.
Lemieux started his 1st game against Tampa on Nov.2nd.
Recall seeing Hernandez played 100% of the snaps before that Tampa game. And that Lemieux had something like 2 offensive snaps up to that point.
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In comment 15254254 Giant John said:
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Didn’t he have COVID during the season? If that’s correct we are lucky we got anything out of him. He is clearly one of our top guards.
He got it after Lemieux started playing.
It was announced that WH had C19 on October 29th.
Lemieux started his 1st game against Tampa on Nov.2nd.
Brown Hornet always bringing facts and good points.
6-10 is what it is, but the team was a lot closer to 8 than 4.
2nd in the NFL in run block win rate behind Quenton Nelson and just ahead of Zack Martin.
Skinner also thinks Hernandez is better then Lemieux. I think run blocking is probably a wash, however it appears that Lemieux might be a better pulling Guard. In terms of Pass Pro, Hernandez is much better. If Lemieux can improve his Pass Pro, he could be a very solid piece. I think Hernandez is a very average Guard and for a second rounder should be giving us more, but since we haven’t brought in any real competition for him, he might be starting on the right side, unless you believe Fulton is better?!
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Do we ever see a coach or team is going come out and say.. THIS is the reason why we sat a player??
Not when it is obvious. When metrics say Hernandez is better, why is Lemeiux playing? The reporters eventually hear why players are sitting. There are hints, they hear things. (of course they were not in the lockerroom last season so there is that)
Coaches do not come out and say Player X is bad so we are playing Player Y. But there are hints or the staff will say Player Y gives us a better chance than Player X.
My point is there appear to be no solid reasons. Is Lemieux better than Hernandez - well I doubt Judge sits a better player without a reason. They certainly did not try to replace him or cut him - is Fulton an upgrade??
Would suggest there are clearly some unknowns of how Judge is perceiving every one of the Offensive Lineman and the group as a whole. He does a great job of supporting them publicly, just like he did to WH when he came back in a supporting role after the virus.
But there were also a lot of problems as we know with the OL and the OL coaching in 2020. Judge wasn't pleased what was going on and changes were made. And COVID may or may not have gotten in the way of the some of those same changes.
Not sure the obsession to understand reasons why, but your biggest clue on who the coaches prefer (in a non-virus environment) are starts/snap counts so utilize those the most.
Can we just take in the fact we currently have 3 2nd year players penciled in to start on the OL, and their rookie years were limited in terms of practice due to Covid (as is their 2nd year a bit as well). Oh and btw-- those 3 guys are guys we're NOT worried about going into the season-- we're more worried about Hernandez than anyone it sounds like. I think those young guys all showed great promise, but you're lying if that statement about 3 2nd-year OL alone doesn't freak you out just a little bit.
It's gonna be awful if for the 5th year in a row we start the season and on the very first run play Saquon is hit 5 yards behind the LOS, and then they go to throw it and Jones is under pressure before he even finishes his drop back. At this point it's become a regular tradition. (I know Saquon and DJ haven't been here 5 years but I'm saying this has been a regular tradition since 2017 and it would be great to actually see some competent OL play in WEEK ONE for a change).
Leg of Theisman... you do realize that Columbo was replaced mid-season...But we ARE going to have to hope that Judge, Garrett, and Columbo are going to be able to get the absolute most out of this group. I think those are 3 great minds that can get the job done.
I'm not mad the Giants didn't draft OL. They would have been reaching for a kid who likely wouldn't be productive through most of the year anyway. Really, any help will have to come via Free Agency or Trade. Where are the Ron Stone's, the Dusty Zieglers and Kareem Mackenzie's? Hell, I'll even take a Lomas Brown at this point!
I like our OL. Its young and talented, basically everyone is going to be in their 2nd or 3rd season.
The Giants were hugely inconsistent in rushing over the year, starting out dismal but then getting into a groove in the middle of season, only to finish poorly when team really needed it. Not bad but not reliable either.
The passing game, where real production/points are generated, as a whole was horrific. And problems came from every unit:
- The OL allowed the second highest pressure % in the NFL and maybe someone can find negative play stats as I am sure the team was among the worst.
- Jones showed for first half of the year that he couldn't consistently produce touchdowns without continuing his high turnover rate. Once the turnovers slowed, so did his touchdown rate.
- The receivers were among leaders in dropped passes, had lowest number of broken tackles and least yards after the catch in the entire league.
Just a few things in my view.
Peart also played much less and see much less effective when he did play after he got COVID. I know plenty of people that recovered quickly without many symptoms, but I also know people that are still suffering effects from it, especially stamina. None of us know how bad Hernandez had it or how long he was effected by it.
My guess is they are banking on Hernandez taking right guard position because Lemieux seems to pull/move a bit better (or quicker). But who knows? We'll find out (not) soon enough... lol
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In comment 15254204 allstarjim said:
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Who says Will Hernandez sucks, and was terrible at run blocking, aught to check your link.
2nd in the NFL in run block win rate behind Quenton Nelson and just ahead of Zack Martin.
Tell it to Joe Judge, who benched him.
You would think that with Thomas and Hernandez next to each other, we would have had bigger holes to run through. Saquon, especially, should have done better when he was there.
Shpuld Thonas and Hernandez have blocked all 8 Steelers run blitzing Saquon at the same time?
It wasn't Thomas and Hernandez's fault Saquon had the numbers he did to open the season against the Steelers. It was the Steelers sending more defenders than blockers every play.
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Do we ever see a coach or team is going come out and say.. THIS is the reason why we sat a player??
Not when it is obvious. When metrics say Hernandez is better, why is Lemeiux playing? The reporters eventually hear why players are sitting. There are hints, they hear things. (of course they were not in the lockerroom last season so there is that)
Coaches do not come out and say Player X is bad so we are playing Player Y. But there are hints or the staff will say Player Y gives us a better chance than Player X.
My point is there appear to be no solid reasons. Is Lemieux better than Hernandez - well I doubt Judge sits a better player without a reason. They certainly did not try to replace him or cut him - is Fulton an upgrade??
I think it's possible that the coaching staff was working Lemieux into the rotation and getting him reps knowing that Ziegler would not be around this year.
So maybe rather than Hernandez actually losing his job, maybe it was an issue of planning for the future. Coaches knew what they had in Hernandez and wanted to see what they have in Lemieux.
The Covid time loss just added to the issue.
Having the "old man" - Tom around, had to help. The Ancient One has seen everything, he's a coach on the field. Dan Jones will get better' in the mean-time good coaching is everything.
Here's a little article about the Bucs ...
https://www.bostonherald.com/2021/02/04/the-buccaneers-offensive-line-can-win-super-bowl-lv-for-tom-brady/
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Who says Will Hernandez sucks, and was terrible at run blocking, aught to check your link.
2nd in the NFL in run block win rate behind Quenton Nelson and just ahead of Zack Martin.
Tell it to Joe Judge, who benched him.
I did and Joe said it was the after effects of COVID. I'm sure you heard of that, it was in all the papers.