I'm repeating something from Fireside Giants that sounded reasonable at 20:10 in the linked video.
Apparently, all 6 of the Engram drops that became interceptions were made from 0-10 yards out, and directly over the middle rather than seam routes, and deeper passes, etc.
Now that we have Kyle Rudolph who can make a living catching those over the middle passes, we can restrict Engram to the routes that he does the best.
Furthermore, they add that Engram is improving as a pass blocker. (I have not watched carefully enough to know if that is true or not, but I hope so for Jones' sake.)
Link - (
New Window )
What could he do that no one else could?
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of the most bizarre things about BBI this offseason is the Evan Engram hate. I get it, he fucks up a fair bunch, but he also does things that no one else on the team could do last year. I'm excited about his 2021.
What could he do that no one else could?
Get open
It's now on the Giants to not put him on the field anymore.
If you can't do the basics then who cares about the big plays here and there. The defenders of his plays point to these "magical" plays he makes here or there. How many of those big plays were game changers or game winners? How many of his gaffes were game changers the other way??
I will not shed a single tear when he is off this team.
Hope for the best expect the worst...
My sentiments exactly.
They can't ignore him, he will demand special attention, so will Barkley, Toney and Galloway. A lot of defensive coordinators are going to be looking for hair transplants nexy year.
This year is about Redemption
A drop rate of 11% with 6 drops resulting in INTs seems REALLY BAD. The bad seemed to outweigh the good and some of those plays cost us games.
I will say it's not his fault he was our # 1 target last year. My hope is that he is put in a better position to succeed and that he's more like our #5 or 6 target this year.. And then starting in '22 he has a nice career with another team (I really don't see us resigning him).
I am sorry but this has to be one of the most baseless takes I have ever seen. Game in and Game out Engram has gotten destroyed on this site for multiple years because he comes up empty in big spots and drops key balls. That Engram can do some things is obvious or he would not still be in the league with his negative issues. That he cannot be relied upon is the critical point with Engram. Call it hate, call it whatever you want, but this has been going on a lot before this off season.
A drop rate of 11% with 6 drops resulting in INTs seems REALLY BAD. The bad seemed to outweigh the good and some of those plays cost us games.
I will say it's not his fault he was our # 1 target last year. My hope is that he is put in a better position to succeed and that he's more like our #5 or 6 target this year.. And then starting in '22 he has a nice career with another team (I really don't see us resigning him).
Its not his fault? Lol. Just like it’s not our fault he gets paid millions of dollars to catch and run with a football.
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In comment 15256261 Jon in NYC said:
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of the most bizarre things about BBI this offseason is the Evan Engram hate. I get it, he fucks up a fair bunch, but he also does things that no one else on the team could do last year. I'm excited about his 2021.
What could he do that no one else could?
Get open
What good is that when you can't catch consistently?
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of the most bizarre things about BBI this offseason is the Evan Engram hate. I get it, he fucks up a fair bunch, but he also does things that no one else on the team could do last year. I'm excited about his 2021.
I am sorry but this has to be one of the most baseless takes I have ever seen. Game in and Game out Engram has gotten destroyed on this site for multiple years because he comes up empty in big spots and drops key balls. That Engram can do some things is obvious or he would not still be in the league with his negative issues. That he cannot be relied upon is the critical point with Engram. Call it hate, call it whatever you want, but this has been going on a lot before this off season.
Apology accepted
He made some HUGE fuckups that directly contributed to us losing games. It's reasonable to hope that his best ball is ahead but sheesh, he had a fucking terrible season and the hate is pretty understandable, IMO.
About half the games last season left me muttering "you can't win with this fucking guy" to myself.
+1.
I don't know how you don't get the hate. The hate is understandable. He obviously has talent. However, he has dropped so many balls that turn into INTs and have changed the game.
That said, it is also part of the coaching staff to put their players in the position to succeed. If they have recognized the situations that lead to these terrible plays, they should limit him being in those situations. Without looking back at them, it does seem that a lot of them do seem to be in shorter routes across the middle.
The addition of Rudolph and Toney should alleviate the need for Engram to run those routes, and hopefully the game-changing bad Engram plays are close to eliminated.
Figure scheming up 5 or 6 plays a game to try and get something big out of him.
What he isn't and will never be is that guy that can out physical a LB for the ball and hang on to it while being hit. That's where Rudolph has excelled through his career.
Between Barkley being hurt and Engram being weak in the area we had no safety valve for Jones in the middle of the field, believe me this hurt us. Rudolph won't have a massive year, but he will play a vital role to this team.
He made some huge fuckups, there's no question, but he has athletic ability few others do and is someone the other team has to gameplan for. I'd rather have him on the team than not and I expect he'll have a better year this season.
He made some huge fuckups, there's no question, but he has athletic ability few others do and is someone the other team has to gameplan for. I'd rather have him on the team than not and I expect he'll have a better year this season.
I agree with you, but I understand the hatred toward him. The key is the coaching staff putting him in a position to succeed. From my layman's eyes, the OP is correct. Engram tends to not do well in shorter routes across the middle in traffic.
Keep him away from those routes, and hopefully we see what he does best, without his weaknesses constantly appearing. This goes with Judge's philosophy of show me what a player can do.
Of the 4 other INT's, 2 went off EE's hands. A 3rd can be blamed on EE since he slipped on his cut. Being the reason for 3 INT's is unacceptable, but this myth that 6 INT's went off his hands is so pervasive that good posters take it as gospel.
DJ's most ardent defenders often accuse his critics of not being real Giants fans due to their "irrational hatred" of DJ, yet have no problem making completely false claims about EE.
And it isn't like I am a member of the Engram Fan Club. I didn't like the pick, I thought some posters overvalued his one positive trait - his speed - but I am astounded at the amount of hate he gets here. Criticism is warranted, he has any number of flaws, but back up claims with evidence.
I wouldn't say it's one of the most bizarre things about BBI. It may be a tad extreme to "hate" him, but he has definitely been exasperating and it sucks to see drives and games go awry by involving him.
Rather than hate him, I prefer to hope he pulls it together. But I kind of feel that's misplaced hope given this will be his 5th year.
DJ INT v Pitt - ( New Window )
But you, you're a hard fairy, right?
I don't disagree with that. As I said, I wasn't a fan of the pick, and openly acknowledge that he is a flawed player. Yet so-called Giant fans, being so desperate to defend DJ, make up shit about a guy who, last I checked, is still on the roster.
EE has been and will continue to be a frustrating player, and criticism of his play is entirely warranted, but let's try to keep it remotely real.
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including Engram. But I don't agree that it's "bizarre" that a lot of Giant fans are down on him.
A drop rate of 11% with 6 drops resulting in INTs seems REALLY BAD. The bad seemed to outweigh the good and some of those plays cost us games.
I will say it's not his fault he was our # 1 target last year. My hope is that he is put in a better position to succeed and that he's more like our #5 or 6 target this year.. And then starting in '22 he has a nice career with another team (I really don't see us resigning him).
Its not his fault? Lol. Just like it’s not our fault he gets paid millions of dollars to catch and run with a football.
Dude, I said it's not his fault he was our #1 target, i.e., he didn't put the roster together (with possibly the worst WRs in the league) and devise the play calls.
Am I wrong?
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In comment 15256261 Jon in NYC said:
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of the most bizarre things about BBI this offseason is the Evan Engram hate. I get it, he fucks up a fair bunch, but he also does things that no one else on the team could do last year. I'm excited about his 2021.
What could he do that no one else could?
Get open
to do what? execute a tip drill for the opponent?
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In comment 15256284 Dr. D said:
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including Engram. But I don't agree that it's "bizarre" that a lot of Giant fans are down on him.
A drop rate of 11% with 6 drops resulting in INTs seems REALLY BAD. The bad seemed to outweigh the good and some of those plays cost us games.
I will say it's not his fault he was our # 1 target last year. My hope is that he is put in a better position to succeed and that he's more like our #5 or 6 target this year.. And then starting in '22 he has a nice career with another team (I really don't see us resigning him).
Its not his fault? Lol. Just like it’s not our fault he gets paid millions of dollars to catch and run with a football.
Dude, I said it's not his fault he was our #1 target, i.e., he didn't put the roster together (with possibly the worst WRs in the league) and devise the play calls.
Am I wrong?
It’s not an excuse for him playing like trash man. He’s a first round pass catcher. Should be prepared to be the guy at all times.
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Im not a fan of those dorks from fireside giants. Sure let’s make excuses for this soft fairy losing us ball games.
But you, you're a hard fairy, right?
The hardest fairy in the forest.
So this is supposed to make us feel better about him? If that's not turd polishing I don't what is.
hopefully some team is dumb enough to give him a good contract and we can get a comp pick
What it will say is anyone's guess but I'm sure the threads about it will continue.
I guess the game losing drops downfield like against PHI don't count?
Engram has to rid himself of all the fleas on his body, BUT Jones absolutely needs to STOP mimicking Eli Manning's one great flaw - inaccurate high throws.
Who knows how many of Eli's receivers got clothes-lined trying to catch those balls in the middle of the field . Many ended-up tipped right into the waiting hands of grateful defensive safeties.
I guess the game losing drops downfield like against PHI don't count?
The thing is, Shockey has numerous crucial drops in his time here. He didn't catch a fraction of the shit Engram does. And Shockey was a headcase and malcontent to boot.
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Apparently, all 6 of the Engram drops that became interceptions were made from 0-10 yards out, and directly over the middle rather than seam routes, and deeper passes, etc.
So this is supposed to make us feel better about him? If that's not turd polishing I don't what is.
I don't think its meant to make us feel better as much as its an observation and PERHAPS something the Giants can scheme around to make him a more productive/less turnover causing player.
2017 church league softbal regular season MVP buddy! Lighten up a little eh?
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football player.
I guess the game losing drops downfield like against PHI don't count?
The thing is, Shockey has numerous crucial drops in his time here. He didn't catch a fraction of the shit Engram does. And Shockey was a headcase and malcontent to boot.
he did from me. I never liked Shockey. Million $ talent, five cent head.
Either that or he got on the plane and claimed to suffer from a fear of flying, and said he was also known as the Duke.So they sent him back to Giants Stadium.
Listen, I don't hate the guy. He actually seems very nice. But he doesn't consistently make the catches a NFL TE should and has cost us games.
He made some huge fuckups, there's no question, but he has athletic ability few others do and is someone the other team has to gameplan for. I'd rather have him on the team than not and I expect he'll have a better year this season.
I will say this: I know you are a Knicks fan too. I was ready to run Randle out of town last year. I would have packed his bags and paid for Mayflower Movers. I REALLY hope next year I feel about EE as I do about Randle today, where both are big time stars I hope are on my favorite team for life.
the drops that lead to int's don't help at all.
he's gotta step it up or he's going to bounce around the league after this year.
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football player.
I guess the game losing drops downfield like against PHI don't count?
The thing is, Shockey has numerous crucial drops in his time here. He didn't catch a fraction of the shit Engram does. And Shockey was a headcase and malcontent to boot.
Jeremy Shockey was literally 100 times the player Evan Engram was. Jesus Christ.
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In comment 15256295 Straw Hat said:
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In comment 15256284 Dr. D said:
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including Engram. But I don't agree that it's "bizarre" that a lot of Giant fans are down on him.
A drop rate of 11% with 6 drops resulting in INTs seems REALLY BAD. The bad seemed to outweigh the good and some of those plays cost us games.
I will say it's not his fault he was our # 1 target last year. My hope is that he is put in a better position to succeed and that he's more like our #5 or 6 target this year.. And then starting in '22 he has a nice career with another team (I really don't see us resigning him).
Its not his fault? Lol. Just like it’s not our fault he gets paid millions of dollars to catch and run with a football.
Dude, I said it's not his fault he was our #1 target, i.e., he didn't put the roster together (with possibly the worst WRs in the league) and devise the play calls.
Am I wrong?
It’s not an excuse for him playing like trash man. He’s a first round pass catcher. Should be prepared to be the guy at all times.
Did I say it's not his fault he can't catch consistently (or block very well)? No. I did not. I'm not defending his shitty play, at all.
Maybe you haven't noticed, I've said in the past that I would like him off the team bc it would be addition by subtraction. That's how I feel about his play.
I merely said (to be nice) that it's not his fault he was our #1 target last yr. He didn't assemble the roster (with league worst WRs) or call the plays (that resulted in him being the #1 target). Those are called facts.
Let me spell it out. Ideally, we would've had a lot more talent at WR, so he would've been a 4th or 5th option (thrown to 20-30 times), instead of #1 (thrown to 109 times last year).
I can tell nothing I say will make you happy, so have a nice day.
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In comment 15256382 Dr. D said:
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In comment 15256295 Straw Hat said:
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In comment 15256284 Dr. D said:
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including Engram. But I don't agree that it's "bizarre" that a lot of Giant fans are down on him.
A drop rate of 11% with 6 drops resulting in INTs seems REALLY BAD. The bad seemed to outweigh the good and some of those plays cost us games.
I will say it's not his fault he was our # 1 target last year. My hope is that he is put in a better position to succeed and that he's more like our #5 or 6 target this year.. And then starting in '22 he has a nice career with another team (I really don't see us resigning him).
Its not his fault? Lol. Just like it’s not our fault he gets paid millions of dollars to catch and run with a football.
Dude, I said it's not his fault he was our #1 target, i.e., he didn't put the roster together (with possibly the worst WRs in the league) and devise the play calls.
Am I wrong?
It’s not an excuse for him playing like trash man. He’s a first round pass catcher. Should be prepared to be the guy at all times.
Did I say it's not his fault he can't catch consistently (or block very well)? No. I did not. I'm not defending his shitty play, at all.
Maybe you haven't noticed, I've said in the past that I would like him off the team bc it would be addition by subtraction. That's how I feel about his play.
I merely said (to be nice) that it's not his fault he was our #1 target last yr. He didn't assemble the roster (with league worst WRs) or call the plays (that resulted in him being the #1 target). Those are called facts.
Let me spell it out. Ideally, we would've had a lot more talent at WR, so he would've been a 4th or 5th option (thrown to 20-30 times), instead of #1 (thrown to 109 times last year).
I can tell nothing I say will make you happy, so have a nice day.
It’s not that serious Doc. EE gets everyone a little fired up for different reasons. Maybe i took what you said the wrong way. At least we can agree hes trash LOL.
He can’t play WR and he can’t play TE. That sort of makes him a slot receiver or H back, but you still have to run some of those over the middle routes, no matter what.
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football player.
I guess the game losing drops downfield like against PHI don't count?
The thing is, Shockey has numerous crucial drops in his time here. He didn't catch a fraction of the shit Engram does. And Shockey was a headcase and malcontent to boot.
No one expects a player to never drop a ball and Shockey had some big drops, but overall his drop rate was a fraction of EE's (and I wasn't a big Shockey fan by the time his time was nearing an end here)
The attached article rated Shockey #1 as far as least drops for a TE. He had 6 drops over THREE years.
Shockey: 6 drops in 3 years
EE: ll drops in 2020 with 6 resulting in INTs
Slight difference.
Shockey # 1 in least drops for TEs - ( New Window )
I think the media criticism of his failures in important or critical situations have really gotten into his head, and he’s so focused on not dropping the ball, he drops the ball.
Maybe they should do to him what they did to AT: go back to what he did well at Oklahoma. Even if it is limited to 3 plays instead of the 5 necessary at a minimum for a TE, if he does them well, even if Ds pick up on them, it makes for confidence-building.
Just a thought.
I think the key is he's not going to be on the field as much and when he is, he's not going to be thrown to nearly as much.
Far fewer opportunities for EE is a good thing.
I would actually rather have him on another team at this point. I have lost all confidence in his play. I do not recall any plays that have led to wins but thats not all on him since the team has been bad. I would rather have a Ballard than an Engram.
The hope was that you might have seen guys like Shepard or Tate be that kind of option for the Giants, but for whatever reason that just wasn't the case.
The weakness the Giants' offense had in throwing the ball short range, midfield may not have been just the reason why they brought in Rudolph but also why they used a 1st round pick on Toney to play from the slot.
But certainly Engram is more effective receiving the ball downfield, and I think the Giants are now in a much better position to play to his strengths.
Plus, as a bonus, if he can bat those drops into an interception, it’s more like a punt!
Sorry, I, sure he’s a great guy, but Hands of Stone are great for Roberto Duran, not great for NFL skill player.
I would rather have a Ballard, Boss or a Cross than an Engram.
(almost Dr. Seuss - like?)
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I would rather have a Ballard than an Engram.
I would rather have a Ballard, Boss or a Cross than an Engram.
(almost Dr. Seuss - like?)
I shall not target Rock Hands Engram
I shall not target him, Dan I Am
I shall not target him on a seam
I won’t even target him in a dream!
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In comment 15256746 Rudy5757 said:
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I would rather have a Ballard than an Engram.
I would rather have a Ballard, Boss or a Cross than an Engram.
(almost Dr. Seuss - like?)
I shall not target Rock Hands Engram
I shall not target him, Dan I Am
I shall not target him on a seam
I won’t even target him in a dream!
Good job!
I hope he does well.
Shockey: 6 drops in 3 years
EE: ll drops in 2020 with 6 resulting in INTs
Slight difference. Shockey # 1 in least drops for TEs - ( New Window )
PFR has Engram with 8 drops this year, still too many, but for the millionth time TWO PASSES went off his hands and were picked, not 6. He is deserving of criticism, but the myth that he tipped 6 passes into defenders hands is ludicrous.
Lonk - ( New Window )
I guess that's not necessarily the same as "interceptions on dropped passes", i.e., he didn't necessarily drop/tip all 6 of 'em before the INT.
Still. Bad.
The most reasonable assessment that could be made about him at this point is that he will drop more passes than the average receiver but that last year was an anomaly.
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In comment 15256759 Dr. D said:
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In comment 15256746 Rudy5757 said:
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I would rather have a Ballard than an Engram.
I would rather have a Ballard, Boss or a Cross than an Engram.
(almost Dr. Seuss - like?)
I shall not target Rock Hands Engram
I shall not target him, Dan I Am
I shall not target him on a seam
I won’t even target him in a dream!
Good job!
Thanks! I’ll see if Chris in Philly wants to team on a graphic novel for the kids!
It's not illuminating in general to look at dropped passes. Engram's drop rate from last year was on the higher end of what you'll ever see, and we're still talking about just 1 dropped pass for every 10 attempts. Drops aren't a significant stat.
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Played significantly different roles for their offenses. Not to mention different positions. I'm not sure comparing their drop rates is all that illuminating.
It's not illuminating in general to look at dropped passes. Engram's drop rate from last year was on the higher end of what you'll ever see, and we're still talking about just 1 dropped pass for every 10 attempts. Drops aren't a significant stat.
I disagree. 11 drops in 16 games is bad and it's not just the drops. His catch rate (57.8%) is bad. As TE (as a "receiving TE", especially), he should be his QBs security blanket, to move the chains, score TDs in the redzone, etc.
Compare EE with Kelce and Kyle Rudolph.
Kelce (in '20): 2 drops on 145 targets, drop rate of 1.4%, catch rate of 72.4%
Rudolph (total over last 3 yrs): 1 drop on 158 targets, drop rate of 0.63% , avg. catch rate of ~80%
EE (in '20): 11 drops on 109 targets, drop rate of 10.1% and catch rate of 57.8%.
So EE had more than SEVEN TIMES the drops per target as Kelce and SIXTEEN TIMES more than Rudolph.
And if EE had similar catch % as Kelce, it would translate to 15 more receptions last yr (on the same # of targets (109)); almost one per game.
Those are not an insignificant differences, when it comes to winning or losing close games. That's very bad and it cost us games.
I don't mean to keep hammering EE, he seems like a nice guy and a hard worker. I'm just glad he'll be targeted MUCH less this year and will hopefully be our #5 or 6 target, instead of #1.
Running two TE sets with Randolph, having defense focused on other new targets or just simply having better feel with Jones. There are many reasonable scenarios in which Engram could easily get his career on track and be a nice piece for the OC.
Hopefully he has a good enough 2021 to make the decision on his future a tough one for the Giants.
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In comment 15257018 PwndPapi said:
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Played significantly different roles for their offenses. Not to mention different positions. I'm not sure comparing their drop rates is all that illuminating.
It's not illuminating in general to look at dropped passes. Engram's drop rate from last year was on the higher end of what you'll ever see, and we're still talking about just 1 dropped pass for every 10 attempts. Drops aren't a significant stat.
I disagree. 11 drops in 16 games is bad and it's not just the drops. His catch rate (57.8%) is bad. As TE (as a "receiving TE", especially), he should be his QBs security blanket, to move the chains, score TDs in the redzone, etc.
Compare EE with Kelce and Kyle Rudolph.
Kelce (in '20): 2 drops on 145 targets, drop rate of 1.4%, catch rate of 72.4%
Rudolph (total over last 3 yrs): 1 drop on 158 targets, drop rate of 0.63% , avg. catch rate of ~80%
EE (in '20): 11 drops on 109 targets, drop rate of 10.1% and catch rate of 57.8%.
So EE had more than SEVEN TIMES the drops per target as Kelce and SIXTEEN TIMES more than Rudolph.
And if EE had similar catch % as Kelce, it would translate to 15 more receptions last yr (on the same # of targets (109)); almost one per game.
Those are not an insignificant differences, when it comes to winning or losing close games. That's very bad and it cost us games.
I don't mean to keep hammering EE, he seems like a nice guy and a hard worker. I'm just glad he'll be targeted MUCH less this year and will hopefully be our #5 or 6 target, instead of #1.
"Catch rate" and "Drops per target" aren't stats that have any significance in evaluating a receiver because they don't account for passes thrown that aren't catchable. By default, teams with poorer QB's will have receivers possessing lower catch rates than what they may likely have on teams with a better QB.
Nobody is disagreeing that Rudolph has better hands than Engram - he has some of the best hands in the league, that's why he was signed. Kelce is an all-time great TE - it's not fair to compare him to any TE.
So you don't want to compare him with Kelce or Rudolph, find a TE, any TE, that had worse catch% than Engram. Good luck. I looked and even those with QBs w lower compl% had higher catch%. Most were much higher.
And if you're trying to say it's bc of DJ's innaccuracy, why is Shepard's catch% respectable? Same QB. Similar yards/tgt.
Anywho, i have nothing against EE personally and I hope he has a great season.