Shockey or Bavaro. Who you taking?

And I am a guy who loved Shockey.

...

and both were excellent. Bavaro but its close.

In comment 15256663 Chip said:

Quote:

and both were excellent. Bavaro but its close.

No it isn't. Good gosh. Bavaro much better.

I want a 2way TE that opponents do not want to make contact with, a la BJacobs.

From my time, but I’d still take Bavaro.

Shockey wasn't really the same player after injury in the exhibition game versus ... the Texans, iirc.

Bavaro in a landslide though. To think, if Shockey caught that pass for the Giants to go up 42-14 in SF, I wonder if Eli is ever a Giant. Crazy how little plays like that can change the entire fortune of a franchise.

I can't even.

In comment 15256678 Sean said:

Quote:

Bavaro in a landslide though. To think, if Shockey caught that pass for the Giants to go up 42-14 in SF, I wonder if Eli is ever a Giant. Crazy how little plays like that can change the entire fortune of a franchise.

Truth.

Shockey was faster but he caused problems on the sidelines, in the locker room and in the media. Bavaro was better on the field and he if he ever caused a problem off the field, we never heard about it.

What's next. You're going to ask whether I'd want Corey Widmer or LT?

.

saying Shockey or saying it was close never saw Bavaro play.

In comment 15256699 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

saying Shockey or saying it was close never saw Bavaro play.

This 100X

who just needed more health.

A great two way TE - blocker and receiver.

Bavaro every day. Not only a better player, but a much better teammate. Bavaro never berated, tried to embarrass or scream "throw me the ball, asshole" to Simms.

Though I never wish an injury on a player, I was one who thought (at the time) that Shockey's injury in '07 could benefit Eli and the team (and I believe it did). I NEVER thought that about Bavaro and his injuries.

Bavaro had no negatives (other than health).

My least favorite Giant of all time vs. one of my favorite Giant of all time. Yeah, I'll take Bavaro 100/100. Not even remotely close.

Not really too me. But you can't compare Widmer to greatest defensive player of all time, can you? How about Carl Banks vs Brad Van Pelt? That's a tough call!

I loved Shockey, but his rookie year was his best. He was basically a disappointment every year after that.

I dont remember the exact context but I believe that the Giants were getting set to go victory formation and Bavaro said something to the effect of "Call a play, I want to hit that guy one more time" That is a TE I want. I liked Shockey the player, I didnt like the person.

I would take Bavaro but I think Shockey was a great player as well.

but if it's 4+ years into their career, it's probably Shockey.

In comment 15256723 Rudy5757 said:

Quote:

I dont remember the exact context but I believe that the Giants were getting set to go victory formation and Bavaro said something to the effect of "Call a play, I want to hit that guy one more time" That is a TE I want. I liked Shockey the player, I didnt like the person. I would take Bavaro but I think Shockey was a great player as well.

I ran into Shockey early in his career at the Atlantis in the Bahamas... If he wasn't a party animal to the extreme he would have left a greater legacy. Guy went HARD off the field.

Howard Cross vs. Shockey

In comment 15256729 OBJ_AllDay said:

Quote:

I ran into Shockey early in his career at the Atlantis in the Bahamas... If he wasn't a party animal to the extreme he would have left a greater legacy. Guy went HARD off the field.

If you swapped Bavaro and Shockey, one can only imagine the off-field wreckage Shockey and LT might have left in their collective wake.

Bavaro. It still kills me visualizing him in an Eagles uniform.

Bavaro could handle Charles Mann or Dexter Manley 1-on-1.

Other teams couldn't cover Bavaro when the Giants other "weapons" were Lionel Manual and Bobby Johnson.

Bavaro played a game where he broke his jaw, had it wired shut, and came back into play and won the game.

Bavaro's catch-and-run against the 49ers was the signature play of the team's first Super Bowl season.

Bavaro was so tough he scared Parcells.

Shockey was a really good pass-catching tight end for a few years.

Bavaro

followed closely by Bavaro, Bavaro and then Bavaro.

.

In comment 15256656 Jints in Carolina said:

Quote:

And I am a guy who loved Shockey.

This.

to around the 30 yard line or so, Bavaro would run that skinny post to center of the field near the end zone.

And Simms would always be targeting him.

Money...

I don't think there are many TEs that I'd take over Bavaro, if any. His combination of blocking, toughness and pass threat make him, at his peak, one of the top TEs of all time. I really can't think of anyone I'd clearly take over him.

Those are the kind of stories that embodied those Parcells' teams. Did we get lucky with those type of players or did guys just love playing for him? As a fan, you couldn't be more proud rooting for the Giants. I am starting to get that feeling with Judge.

.

I'd take Bob Tucker before Shockey too.
The gears didn't mesh in Shockey's head.

Enjoy the video.

Mark Bavaro - ( New Window )

was a good TE too, before he was injured.

but a 2 cent head. Bavaro and it is really not even worthy of debate.

up for debate.

In comment 15256760 Klaatu said:

Quote:

Enjoy the video. Mark Bavaro - ( New Window )

That's my favorite NFL player interview ever. Not even close.

In comment 15256674 JonC said:

Quote:

Shockey wasn't really the same player after injury in the exhibition game versus ... the Texans, iirc.

He got hurt in that game?

I don't remember that, but I was 14 at the time.

..

In comment 15256669 section125 said:

Quote:

In comment 15256663 Chip said: Quote: and both were excellent. Bavaro but its close. No it isn't. Good gosh. Bavaro much better.

+1

I'm guessing the OP wasn't around during the Bavaro times

Great video. When you drag Ronnie Lott on your back for 20 yards you know you have the goods.

In comment 15256656 Jints in Carolina said:

Quote:

And I am a guy who loved Shockey.

My thoughts. Liked Shockey as a player but loved everything about Bavaro. He was way humble and all about team. Shockley was a dick. A talented dick, but a dick.

In comment 15256699 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

saying Shockey or saying it was close never saw Bavaro play.

game. set. match.

+1

Then Zeke
Then Shockey

In comment 15256798 Go Giants said:

Quote:

Then Zeke Then Shockey

As a young guy, I got spoiled with TE blocking because of Mowatt, Bavaro, and Cross. I thought all TEs blocked like that.

I did go to the University of Miami. not only do I remember Bavaro I remember Aaron Thomas and Bob Tucker

Was a true warrior and champion. Nothing against Shockey, he was great, but he isn't in Bavaro's class. Bavaro is a Mt Rushmore Giant for me - Shockey isn't on the mountain.

In comment 15256798 Go Giants said:

Quote:

Then Zeke Then Shockey

Zeke Mowatt is criminally underappreciated. He belongs up there with Hakeem Nicks in the list of players who would have been one of the team's greats if not for injuries

I saw them both play. Bavaro was a better receiver, a better blocker, a much tougher player, a much much smarter player, and a true champion.

Shockey was a jackass.

been HOF if he hadn't had his knee destroyed in 89!

In fact, I still wonder what 89 could have been if he hadn't been hurt.

In comment 15256812 Semipro Lineman said:

Quote:

In comment 15256798 Go Giants said: Quote: Then Zeke Then Shockey Zeke Mowatt is criminally underappreciated. He belongs up there with Hakeem Nicks in the list of players who would have been one of the team's greats if not for injuries

When Mowatt got hurt in the 1985 preseason, I was devastated. That allowed Bavaro to emerge, but people forget that at the time, Mowatt was "The Man" at that position. The '84 game against the Chiefs is still one of my favorites and Mowatt dominated that game.

He was like having a top OT who could run and catch passes. Tremendous blocker, tough to take down, and reliable. One of my favorite Giants ever.

...but fuck Shockey and this insane comparison.

Mark Bavaro was the best TE the Giants ever had, hands down - forget the receiving, one of the best blocking TE's I ever saw. Just dynamite, AND a quiet, classy team presence.

Shockey dropped half the passes thrown to him, had more than his share of unsportsmanlike penalties and was a complete jackass, VERY disruptive team presence. Juvenile tattoo told all you need to know. Belonged on Dallas.

In comment 15256798 Go Giants said:

Quote:

Then Zeke Then Shockey

YES! Zeke was really good before the knee injury. SHockey was an asshole. The offense got better when he got hurt in 2007

Great hands, powerful, blocked like an offensive tackle, and a class act.

Shockey was another one of those million dollar talent with a ten cent brain cases, kind of like OBJ. The concentration drops, partying, and attitude issues such as bitching about getting the ball all the time kind of derailed what could have been a hall of fame caliber career.

In comment 15256823 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 15256812 Semipro Lineman said: Quote: In comment 15256798 Go Giants said: Quote: Then Zeke Then Shockey Zeke Mowatt is criminally underappreciated. He belongs up there with Hakeem Nicks in the list of players who would have been one of the team's greats if not for injuries When Mowatt got hurt in the 1985 preseason, I was devastated. That allowed Bavaro to emerge, but people forget that at the time, Mowatt was "The Man" at that position. The '84 game against the Chiefs is still one of my favorites and Mowatt dominated that game.

spot on and having Bavaro AND Mowatt healthy in 86 created a unique offensive dynamic I didn't see repeated til Gronk/Hernandez.

In comment 15256741 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

Bavaro could handle Charles Mann or Dexter Manley 1-on-1. Other teams couldn't cover Bavaro when the Giants other "weapons" were Lionel Manual and Bobby Johnson. Bavaro played a game where he broke his jaw, had it wired shut, and came back into play and won the game. Bavaro's catch-and-run against the 49ers was the signature play of the team's first Super Bowl season. Bavaro was so tough he scared Parcells. Shockey was a really good pass-catching tight end for a few years.

you're rolling Eric.

.

In comment 15256780 19th Hole said:

Quote:

Great video. When you drag Ronnie Lott on your back for 20 yards you know you have the goods.

You know, I almost missed that play.

My boss had invited me to his house for dinner, and to watch the game. His wife was a real sweetheart, but she was a Godawful cook, lol.

Anyway, the first half ends, the Giants look like crap, and I'm thinking about the 45 minute ride back to my place, so I figure maybe I should just call it a night.

However, right before the second half was about to start, a mutual friend of ours showed up, in fact he was the guy who recommended me to my boss when I was looking for a new job. So, I stuck around to chat and I didn't miss out on seeing one of the greatest plays in Giants history.

Bavaro and it isn’t even close, imv

None taken. I thought we would see more of a split especially if you didn't see Bavaro in person. For me, it's not close but when Engram's the best you got I guess I got a little crazy!

Lawrence Taylor or Chase Blackburn, who was better.

Writing Shockey's name in the same sentence as Mark Bavaro is heresy.

-who carried half the 49ers defense on his back for 15 -20 yards (to include HoFer Ronnie Lott).
-who played through 6 weeks with a broken jaw, it was wired shut and he had to drink (that's right drink) food through a straw
-who stood toe to toe at every practice learning to block against the best defense we ever had led by none other than Lawrence Taylor
-who got 2 rings with NY Giants and actually made major contributions in both games
-who is the very definition of lunch pail, blue-collar player

against, who was the other guy again?

Bavaro was the closest thing to Gronk we’ve seen, but a more blocking focused 80s version. Really easy decision even though Shockey wasn’t exactly a bum.

Bavaro, Bavaro. Isn't even close. What a man.

Bavaro, and as Eric says, this isn't close. Put Bavaro on Bill Walsh's 49'ers team, and he would have been labeled the best Tight End of all time. (Phil was great, but the 80's Giants had no WR's to take the pressure off of Mark, and Walsh's offense was very TE friendly in the passing game).

Mark had everything you wanted in a football player. He was a monster blocking, and a tough as nails pass catcher.

Bavaro on going up against Lawrence Taylor and earning respect:



Bavaro: I like to think I earned their respect my rookie year in camp. There was one moment in camp where I went out for a little short pass and Lawrence Taylor blindsided me, knocked me on the ground, almost knocked my teeth out…and I got up. I was a little mad because I didn’t think you should do that to your own teammates and I just whipped the ball at his head and he just kind of smiled and walked back in the huddle. I was ready for a confrontation and it never came and I said to myself…I think he respects me. I took that as a sign that we’re cool…that I was part of the team and he respected my abilities and that he didn’t feel the need to have to teach me a lesson

Bavaro said that going up against Carl Banks every day in practice made him the blocker he was.

Drops the mic and walks away! Enough said!!

ridiculous that its even a question. Bavaro was everything you could want in a football player ... my favorite of all time.

but not nearly the same amount of cattle.

Gronk wasnt even in the same class as Bavaro?

And it's not even remotely close.

and it's not really close. If Bavaro doesn't get high/lowed in San Diego in 1989, he's in the Hall of Fame today.

One of the funny things as I have gone back to post the old highlights on the BigBlueVCR account, Bavaro was considered a blocker when he first got to the Giants, he wasn't much of a receiver until he went crazy in the Cincinnati game when he caught 12 for 176 yards as a rookie.

As Eric and others said, he was thrust into a larger role because Mowatt tore his ACL in the final pre-season game in Pittsburgh. Mowatt was going to be a breakout star at TE.

Bavaro is the only TE in NYG history to go over 1000 yards. And he would have gone well over it in 1987, he had over 800 yards in 12 games due to the strike.

And I've got plenty of highlights of him burying guys on run blocks, including DEs, and holding his own in pass protection.

Shockey was probably faster than Bavaro, but before his knee injury, Bavaro actually had surprisingly good speed. But Bavaro is best TE the NYG have had.

I hated that decision and that he went to the Eagles. Shockey was a drama queen and cost us the 49er game. Bavaro all the way then Tucker.

In comment 15257044 Ike#88 said:

Quote:

I hated that decision and that he went to the Eagles. Shockey was a drama queen and cost us the 49er game. Bavaro all the way then Tucker.

He failed his physical in camp in 1991. The Giants wanted him to retire because of the damage in his knee. What happened at the time was Wellington Mara was in surgery or recovering in the hospital. When Bavaro failed his physical, George Young went by the CBA and paid him the $60k amount when you waive a guy after failing a physical. That caused a mini uproar of the Giants being cheap, so when Mara recovered a few days later, they paid Bavaro the remainder of his salary as a thank you for all he had done.

Bavaro didn't want to retire and sat out the 1991 season to rehab. Belichick made him an offer to join him in Cleveland in 1992 and Bavaro took him up on it, but he was only there 1 year. Bavaro then rounded out his career in Philly, which was awful to see. He actually caught a TD pass vs the Giants in 1993, in Giants Stadium..from Kenny O'Brien, the former Jet QB of all people.

Bavaro made some huge catches in the '90 title game vs. SF & XXV.

In comment 15257034 Kevin999 said:

Quote:

Gronk wasnt even in the same class as Bavaro?

Belichick said Gronk was on the same level as Bavaro, but he can't put anyone above Bavaro, because Bavaro was able to block Reggie White. So they were essentially tied in his mind.

It was LT that Belichick said he doesn't care who is playing in the NFL now, no one is on LT's level. And he's right.

Matt, as an aside, I love that Twitter account of yours. It's awesome content. Thanks for it.

In comment 15257055 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

Matt, as an aside, I love that Twitter account of yours. It's awesome content. Thanks for it.

Thanks, I'm having fun with it. A few of the Giants coaches actually started following it and I'm trying to dig up stuff from 35-40 year ago that they might be able to sneak into a gameplan somewhere. Being Judge is from the Belichick tree, basically it's stuff from his early years as Little Bill and they can spring it on a team.

So I think we all pretty much feel the same. Don’t think I need to add mine too.

did NJ.com ever do that story on you?

.

Team player

was Ernie having to take a Cessna 152 😎 to get to Shockley’s hometown so he could meet with him in person before drafting him 14th overall.

Good times.

In comment 15257060 Matt in SGS said:

Quote:

In comment 15257055 SFGFNCGiantsFan said: Quote: Matt, as an aside, I love that Twitter account of yours. It's awesome content. Thanks for it. Thanks, I'm having fun with it. A few of the Giants coaches actually started following it and I'm trying to dig up stuff from 35-40 year ago that they might be able to sneak into a gameplan somewhere. Being Judge is from the Belichick tree, basically it's stuff from his early years as Little Bill and they can spring it on a team.

That's awesome Matt, keep up the great work.

Bob Tucker has to be added in aS A POTENTAIL #2 CHOICE

In comment 15257091 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

did NJ.com ever do that story on you?

Eric, not yet. I think he's going to run it later this spring when things are super dead.

Bavaro.
Bavaro Bavaro Bavaro!

Bavaro Bavaro Bavaro Bavaro Bavaro Bavaro.

Bavaro!
Bavaro Bavaro Bavaro.

Bavaro!

Bavaro! Bavaro! Bavaro!

Bavaro!

Bavaro Bavaro Bavaro Bavaro Bavaro Bavaro.

In comment 15257048 Matt in SGS said:

Quote:

In comment 15257044 Ike#88 said: Quote: I hated that decision and that he went to the Eagles. Shockey was a drama queen and cost us the 49er game. Bavaro all the way then Tucker. He failed his physical in camp in 1991. The Giants wanted him to retire because of the damage in his knee. What happened at the time was Wellington Mara was in surgery or recovering in the hospital. When Bavaro failed his physical, George Young went by the CBA and paid him the $60k amount when you waive a guy after failing a physical. That caused a mini uproar of the Giants being cheap, so when Mara recovered a few days later, they paid Bavaro the remainder of his salary as a thank you for all he had done. Bavaro didn't want to retire and sat out the 1991 season to rehab. Belichick made him an offer to join him in Cleveland in 1992 and Bavaro took him up on it, but he was only there 1 year. Bavaro then rounded out his career in Philly, which was awful to see. He actually caught a TD pass vs the Giants in 1993, in Giants Stadium..from Kenny O'Brien, the former Jet QB of all people.

Thanks for the info Matt in SGS

If he never screwed up his knee, I think he could have had an argument for greatest TE of all time.

Jeremy Shockey was a great talent and a good player.
Mark Bavaro was a good talent and a great player.

I’m taking

Mark Bavaro
Bob Tucker
Aaron Thomas
Joe Walton
Richie Kotite

Before Dropsie Shockey in the San Francisco playoff game

In comment 15257238 yalebowl said:

Quote:

I’m taking Mark Bavaro Bob Tucker Aaron Thomas Joe Walton Richie Kotite And Howard Cross Before Dropsie Shockey in the San Francisco playoff game

Why was the question even asked? It's not even close to be considered to be asked.

at minute 2:49 -

" I tell you he is a stone face that Bavaro - you never know what he's thinking. I'd hate to have to fight that son-of-a-gun"

That is a quote from Parcells - who was firmly in charge of that team.





Link - ( New Window )

trick question?

In comment 15256834 x meadowlander said:

Quote:

.

+100

Easily. Though Shockey could have been special.

last evening. I hadn't seen it before so it was a good watch. Shockey was displayed in the part 2 episode plenty, including retrospective commentary.

He was a hell of a talent for such a big guy. Quick turns up field with the ball in his hand, always looking for the big play and reaching for a TD. Impactful.

He fit right in with that environment at Miami.

Also remember how the game was played in the 80's and the division and conference he played in. The NFC East and NFC were at the highest level of competition in the history of the league.

In comment 15257060 Matt in SGS said:

Quote:

In comment 15257055 SFGFNCGiantsFan said: Quote: Matt, as an aside, I love that Twitter account of yours. It's awesome content. Thanks for it. Thanks, I'm having fun with it. A few of the Giants coaches actually started following it and I'm trying to dig up stuff from 35-40 year ago that they might be able to sneak into a gameplan somewhere. Being Judge is from the Belichick tree, basically it's stuff from his early years as Little Bill and they can spring it on a team.

I want to follow this.

In comment 15257331 chick310 said:

Quote:

last evening. I hadn't seen it before so it was a good watch. Shockey was displayed in the part 2 episode plenty, including retrospective commentary. He was a hell of a talent for such a big guy. Quick turns up field with the ball in his hand, always looking for the big play and reaching for a TD. Impactful. He fit right in with that environment at Miami.

Caught some of that, too. No doubt Shock was a very good player. BTW, those Miami teams in the early '00s were, IMV, they most talented teams in the history of the college football. It is stunning how much talent Butch Davis and Larry Coker recruited.

In comment 15257790 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15257331 chick310 said: Quote: last evening. I hadn't seen it before so it was a good watch. Shockey was displayed in the part 2 episode plenty, including retrospective commentary. He was a hell of a talent for such a big guy. Quick turns up field with the ball in his hand, always looking for the big play and reaching for a TD. Impactful. He fit right in with that environment at Miami. Caught some of that, too. No doubt Shock was a very good player. BTW, those Miami teams in the early '00s were, IMV, they most talented teams in the history of the college football. It is stunning how much talent Butch Davis and Larry Coker recruited.

There were pro teams that would have had a hard time with them. They ran a pro offense as well.

In comment 15256971 Klaatu said:

Quote:

Bavaro said that going up against Carl Banks every day in practice made him the blocker he was.

Wish HOF voters understood this.

I loved Jeremy Shockey to death. I watched him in college as a Hurricanes fan. I leapt for joy when the Giants drafted him. It killed me when he got hurt and then released. I still love him but he's not even close to Bavaro's level.

In comment 15257843 Racer said:

Quote:

In comment 15256971 Klaatu said: Quote: Bavaro said that going up against Carl Banks every day in practice made him the blocker he was. Wish HOF voters understood this.

+1

both exceptional and cut down by injuries. I'll take Bavaro every time.

Hands down, best two way TE, in a two decade period, caught the ball like a receiver, but ran it like a Mack truck. Only TE, that blocked better, as a Giant, was Howard Cross, Bavaro, played TE like a defender and perfected the seam route (just ask Ronnie Lott). One Gil Byrd cheap shot from HOF.

fighting everything in me to not be sarcastic.Bavaro was the heart of those early Super Bowl teams. The Ronnie Lott piggy back carry for 20 yards,playing with a broken jaw & only eating liquids all week to do so,his blocking ability,his character. Shockey was a very good player(when he played),who garnered more of a following since he was outspoken about issues(whether he knew anything about it or not),who always seemed to play for himself & got pouty when he didn't see the ball enough(Bavaro was an ultimate team player & as long as the Giants won,his statistics were unimportant).Very simply,there is no comparison!

every single time. Bavaro was the consummate team player and Shockey was a diva.

Bavaro

/above is sarcasm and I did not read responses.

a BBI entrance exam, this question should be on it.

that it would have been closer if Shockey wasn't such a doofus.

In comment 15259971 The Jake said:

Quote:

that it would have been closer if Shockey wasn't such a doofus.

100% agree with both your comments. Bavaro without question, but even if you wanted to argue the Shockey side of the equation, the “risk he might do something stupid” factor is a big mark against him anyway

Might think it's an exaggeration to say that Bavaro trucking the core of the SF defense was the key to that comeback victory.

It wasn't. It fired up the Giants and brought out great second and third efforts. But more importantly, it just crumbled the air of superiority and deflated the extra from SF.

Their top mouth tough guys ( not just Lott) looked like Lilliputians against Bavaro in that and subsequent runs.

That game was not won on talent or scheme. It was one of the few playoff games won by
a lopsided attitude shift.

As for the question, there isn't one. And I agree that Bob Tucker and Zeke were better than Shockey.

Mort got it exactly right. One was a great talent and one was a great football player

In comment 15260066 Bill2 said:

Quote:

Might think it's an exaggeration to say that Bavaro trucking the core of the SF defense was the key to that comeback victory. It wasn't. It fired up the Giants and brought out great second and third efforts. But more importantly, it just crumbled the air of superiority and deflated the extra from SF. Their top mouth tough guys ( not just Lott) looked like Lilliputians against Bavaro in that and subsequent runs. That game was not won on talent or scheme. It was one of the few playoff games won by a lopsided attitude shift. As for the question, there isn't one. And I agree that Bob Tucker and Zeke were better than Shockey. Mort got it exactly right. One was a great talent and one was a great football player

The Bavaro play where he dragged 5 defenders wasn't a playoff game. It was a Monday night game as I recall...

Thank you x

Bavaro was the heart of the Giants while he was on the team -he led by example, was one tough SOB, and a great teammate who made the most of every opportunity --- Shockey on the other hand was a heart-breaker, selfish in every aspect of the word, and drove himself off the team because he was a terrible teammate and couldn't stand not being the center of attention