What is more important for his improvement this year wins or stats or both? If he has stats like his rookie season fumbles and all but cut down some with the team finishing 11-6 with a playoff berth is that enough or if he puts up 4500 yds and 35 tds and 10 ints with second digits fumbles and team finishes 8-9 and out of playoffs is that enough?
Don't click on it and have a nice day.
You'll know it when you see it...
If we call the offense aggressively, interceptions wont bother me as much as long as AY/A stays above league average. Bottom line, I expect him to execute the offense the way it is constructed and called.
Good targets are 32 TDs and 7.5 AY/A. Those are slightly above average marks based on last year's stats around the league.
So we need to average at least 24PPG to be in the hunt. And I think that has to be a derivative of Jones throwing at least 30 TDs over 17 games. If he can't do that with the offensive skill players he has than he is not the solution.
Bottom line - if Jones has the stats tha that should translate to wins.
** I'm assuming, too, btw a 2:1 TD/INT ratio, 65% completion rate and at least 7 YPA...
If he grows into a 4500/35 level QB who wins in the playoffs, I'll be pleasantly surprised.
I don't see any single number that captures that. Wins, one would hope, but then again, it's a team game.
I don't see any single number that captures that. Wins, one would hope, but then again, it's a team game.
Turnovers or lack thereof would likely be a sign of improvements reading defenses, throwing accurately, pocket awareness, etc.
If he grows into a 4500/35 level QB who wins in the playoffs, I'll be pleasantly surprised.
If that happens, we could be conservative on O if the running game gets going. I know it is generic but if we win games, he will get my support.
I don't see any single number that captures that. Wins, one would hope, but then again, it's a team game.
IMO, the coach is not looking for anything related to statistics but rather all of the things that make the statistics favorable.
DJ needs to trust his instincts and his teammates and just play.
The W's will come with improvement, the L's will come without it.
W/L is the only statistical category that matters outside of baseball and fantasy.
Eli went 25-17 in 2005. Was that good enough? They scored 417 points that year and went 11-5.
It's all about the team's offensive performance. Is Jones helping or hindering the offense? Are his pedestrian numbers truly indicative of his play and place here or are his good stats a fake story? We've seen good stats lie and average stats lie plenty of times before.
Forget the stats. Score points. Win games. Simple. Only the biggest trolls here will use stats as a way to bitch and moan and troll. Same shit with Eli. Same shit with Jones. I called it the day after the draft in 2019 that even if Jones leads this offense back to a good place people will bitch if his numbers aren't insanely good. Fuck em.
If Jones plays extremely well, but in spite of Jones' play, the Giants season goes poorly (injuries, bad calls at key times in key games, other players having down years etc), his stats are probably more important than wins in terms of Jones' future.
But if the defense plays "lights out", Barkley returns to 2018 or better form, the OL continues to improve and the Giants make the playoff in spite of Jones' still having turnover and other issues, then there may be enough data to say Jones "isn't the guy"; so stats would be more important.
Or if Jones exhibits "unselfish behaviors that hurt his stats" (throwing the ball away instead of forcing it, taking a safe sack to risk of turnovers) and the team wins with Jones have very "pedestrian stats", I think overall the wins are more important.
Short answer is likely "both".
I think the Giants are going to kind of tell us what they think of Jones by how aggressive they are in their play calling. They have a stronger roster, they have a chance to make a push towards being a playoff team, I think that's how they view themselves. If they trust him and believe in him, I think they are going to be very aggressive on offense. If you really want a full evaluation on Jones, and you put these pieces around him it's not time to go into a protective shell. That is what will be interesting to me. Eli's second year with Plax, they were aggressive as hell on offense, I think they were 3rd in attempts, top 5 in scoring(and Eli's stats weren't exactly pretty, but they reflected an aggressive down the field chunk passing approach). I just want them to be aggressive with Jones and the new additions on O, and let the chips fall where they may.
If he grows into a 4500/35 level QB who wins in the playoffs, I'll be pleasantly surprised.
Over 17 games, those numbers - 3,200, 24/12 - are pedestrian targets. Jones needs to do considerably better than that.
It really does boil down to PPG. And the teams who contend are generally at 25ppg or >. With all of the investments on the offensive side of the ball, I can't believe everyone isn't thinking much bigger results...
Quote:
It depends on the running game, defense, and keeping his INT+fumbles under 20. In other words, QB stats only tell part of the story.
If he grows into a 4500/35 level QB who wins in the playoffs, I'll be pleasantly surprised.
Over 17 games, those numbers - 3,200, 24/12 - are pedestrian targets. Jones needs to do considerably better than that.
It really does boil down to PPG. And the teams who contend are generally at 25ppg or >. With all of the investments on the offensive side of the ball, I can't believe everyone isn't thinking much bigger results...
These Jones’ threads are like an addiction for you. Anything else going on in your life?
If we have a perfect season (something Tom Brady could not do!) and Jones doesn't have a 158.3 QBR what more could Jones do?
Quote:
It depends on the running game, defense, and keeping his INT+fumbles under 20. In other words, QB stats only tell part of the story.
If he grows into a 4500/35 level QB who wins in the playoffs, I'll be pleasantly surprised.
Over 17 games, those numbers - 3,200, 24/12 - are pedestrian targets. Jones needs to do considerably better than that.
It really does boil down to PPG. And the teams who contend are generally at 25ppg or >. With all of the investments on the offensive side of the ball, I can't believe everyone isn't thinking much bigger results...
Quote:
Jones was not drafted to be a passenger. He was drafted to drive the car. So the team will only be as good as he is able to produce points. There are outliers and exceptions to this, but it's generally a steadfast rule.
These Jones’ threads are like an addiction for you. Anything else going on in your life?
Yes, I'm studying the QBs in the 2022 draft class... ;)
Over 17 games, those numbers - 3,200, 24/12 - are pedestrian targets. Jones needs to do considerably better than that.
It really does boil down to PPG. And the teams who contend are generally at 25ppg or >. With all of the investments on the offensive side of the ball, I can't believe everyone isn't thinking much bigger results...
Are you really asking why fans of a football team care more about whether a team wins or not over the stats of a player? Really?
No. I'm simply making the correlation to wins based on the play of Jones.
Link - ( New Window )
So you would be unhappy? I can’t believe that.
I think the Giants are going to kind of tell us what they think of Jones by how aggressive they are in their play calling. They have a stronger roster, they have a chance to make a push towards being a playoff team, I think that's how they view themselves. If they trust him and believe in him, I think they are going to be very aggressive on offense. If you really want a full evaluation on Jones, and you put these pieces around him it's not time to go into a protective shell. That is what will be interesting to me. Eli's second year with Plax, they were aggressive as hell on offense, I think they were 3rd in attempts, top 5 in scoring(and Eli's stats weren't exactly pretty, but they reflected an aggressive down the field chunk passing approach). I just want them to be aggressive with Jones and the new additions on O, and let the chips fall where they may.
This is going to be a run first offense and everything is going to flow through run game. Let's not go nuts over our pass catchers. We have a legit number 1 now, but not a guy that is elite, and solid role players. Our biggest stud is Saquon and our line actually run blocks well, but pass blocking not a strength. I expect to see a lot of deep play action as far being aggressive goes, but throwing the ball a ton with this team doesn't make much sense.
I meant run first as comparative to the rest of the NFL. 2 of those 3 teams do what they can do in the pass game because of the run game and the need to respect it. The Pats just were pitiful throwing the ball last year because Cam's arm isn't good anymore and they had garbage out there.
Roll him out, use plenty of RPOs, use designed QB runs. Cut the field in half for him, reduce his passing reads and shorten his decision making time. That maximizes his best asset and reduces exposure to his weaknesses.
That's his best shot, I think. I don't think Garrett is the guy to put that type of offense together, though.
Sorry.
It would appear we’ve seen upgrades on offense and defense. Little to no attrition. Team wasn’t good last year but it didn’t look like a team that was very far away. Let’s be fair and say slight upgrades on both sides of the ball plus another year or needed maturity. Same staff in place. It’s now or never. It sounds good, looks right but it still needs to happen.
Roll him out, use plenty of RPOs, use designed QB runs. Cut the field in half for him, reduce his passing reads and shorten his decision making time. That maximizes his best asset and reduces exposure to his weaknesses.
That's his best shot, I think. I don't think Garrett is the guy to put that type of offense together, though.
I think he needs to do both but getting him moving should be a big part of the offense. I say both because you generally struggle long term with a one dimensional qb.
No, it's not! Trubisky has a winning record and that dude sucks! DJ has to show he can be an elite QB, put up top 10 QB stats, and lead TD drives in the 4th quarter. If he can't put up elite numbers, move on. Winning games 20-17 in the regular season leads to 1-and-dones in the playoffs and wasted money on 5th year guarantees.
A tall order given his first two years in the league, but not unreasonable.
A tall order given his first two years in the league, but not unreasonable.
I would be careful about 4000 yard benchmark because if you look at the QB’s who would have hit that number last year if they played 17 games it is almost evenly split between playoff and non-playoff teams (and in one case a playoff QB who team wanted to trade). If you are playing from behind you are going to pass more. TD’s is also hard stat with Jones because if Barkley can regain something more akin to his rookie season that will siphon off a lot of TD’s. The key for me is whether Jones is putting us in the best position to win. Cutting down turnovers is imperative as well as doing more when the game is on the line. Also being able to sustain drives so it keeps D rested. We had too many 3 and outs or drives that stalled out if we got a penalty or early down sack last year. I can’t understate Jason Garrett’s pathetic play calling, but Jones really needs to make quicker decisions in obvious passing situations.
But, if he plays well, the stats will be fine and the wins will follow.
I don’t care about Jones’s stats. On first and goal, I just want the TD. Doesn’t matter whether it comes on a jump ball to Rudolph or a dive by Brightwell. But I think Jones will get some benefit of the doubt if his numbers are good and the team isn’t, unless his mistakes are responsible for losses.
If won-loss is so bad that the whole thing gets blown up including a new GM, then yes there is a risk they move on with a new guy under center.
And I also place less emphasis on stats than many here but should be enough weapons in place now to offset some of OL issues, maybe not all. If he plays 17 games, which is less than more likely, Jones should be tracking to 4000 yards and something lower but close to 30 touchdowns. Turnovers...who knows?
In year 1, his record was 7-2-1.
In year 2, his record was 3-7. He only started 4 more games after that in his entire career, because he was not good.
If the Giants go 11-6 but Jones puts up mediocre stats, it's not unfair to question whether or not he's the guy beyond 2021.
If the Giants go 8-9 because the defense falters but Jones consistently delivers at a level on par with the upper third of NFL QBs, that's at least instructive about his career prospects.
A few posters have used the Chargers record last year against Justin Herbert in arguments supporting Jones, without any context whatsoever. There's only so much a QB can do if he's got a bad defense and inept coaching staff. Justin Herbert put the Chargers in position to win 10-11 games, and they only won 7 because they blew massive leads and faltered in the 4th quarter on several occasions.
Context is important. You'd learn more about Jones with good numbers and a disappointing record than vice versa.
And yes, winning matters. As a team. In evaluating individual players, individual performance matters more.
I think that Judge can fix Jones' fumbling, but as with Tiki, it will require a lot of work on Jones' part. If Jones is successful at it, and reduces his fumbles, I suspect that his overall quarterbacking technique will also improve.
My point is: It can be done and it won't be easy, but it will be worth it on at least two different levels.
Now you may say, "But Tiki was an RB and Jones a QB, those positions are not similar to each other." I don't think that is the real issue. Tiki and Jones are very similar to each other in their work habits.
Tiki, if you remember, was an incredibly hard worker. He continued to train even after practice was over. Remember "the Hill?" Jones has a similar reputation when it comes to quarterbacking.
I have hopes.