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The way things shape up in early May, the Giants, from left to right, line up with Thomas, Lemieux, Nick Gates, Will Hernandez and Peart as the starting group. If this is the five-man starting unit, can it get the job done? “I think they can,’’ Chris Snee, a four-time Pro Bowl guard for the Giants and most recently an offensive line scout for the Jaguars, told The Post. “Obviously the Giants organization thinks they can, so I hope they can. Myself and all the guys that have worn the colors have kind of been rooting for that unit to get back to what it was. It has been down for a while.’’ Peart could be the key to the entire deal. He is one of the players you select coming off the bus, a sleek 6-foot-7 athlete with a huge wingspan, gaining bulk and strength to his 318-pound rookie weight. “He was a guy I visited three years consecutively at Connecticut,’’ Snee said. “As a sophomore when I saw him I immediately said, ‘Who’s that guy?’ He had everything you looked for from a physical-attribute standpoint. He moved well enough. He needed to get stronger. Athletic enough to play right tackle. The thing that I saw with him, and a lot of these young guys, especially the tackles, is the way they use their hands, that needs to be improved across the board. That will come with proper coaching.’’ Another key to the operation meshing: What is the deal with Hernandez? A 2018 second-round pick, he showed signs in 2019 of becoming the bullish guard the Giants envisioned him to be but 2020 was a lost season. He was not playing well early, missed two games after contracting COVID-19 and never regained his starting job. The Giants have not given up on him, though. “I wouldn’t put him aside,’’ Snee said. “I wouldn’t, at all.’’ |
I simply don't know what they're going to say for themselves if the OL is the reason the offense spins it's wheels. They've boxed themselves into a tenuous situation.
Lol
BB I don't think HOF. It seems the guards who have gotten in have 7 or more All Pro's. He was a great Giant and I hope he at least gets consideration for HOF in the coming years.
Wish his comments on the current OL situation were a bit more inspiring. Any rumors on additional free agent moves to this unit?
Longevity really helps OL hof chances. You never know. He retired at 32 but he stopped being effective at like 30. Far too young.
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would he have had a decent shot at the HOF?
Longevity really helps OL hof chances. You never know. He retired at 32 but he stopped being effective at like 30. Far too young.
Yeah, if he was reasonably healthy, he most likely would have played at a solid level for 4-5 more years, imo
No idea how the Fulton thing works out beyond a backup role, but I have no doubts about JJ inserting him in as a starter if ZF is deemed the best we have at the position
The pessimist in me says that all of that won't make much of difference because the talent level just isn't there, and the Giants made a big mistake in the draft by not getting at least one top-tier O-Lineman capable of starting from day one.
Well, we'll know soon enough which one is right.
If the OL is underperforming it screws up everything. Have to think the Giants have confidence with what they have or they would have been more aggressive in the draft identifying a interior starter and giving up assets (if they had to) to get them if it was that critical. I think the key is both tackles have to be good.
Fulton has been far better than Hart..Don’t see the analogy
IDK, isn't he like 170 pounds now?
I keep hearing this from people around the league. One guy from a team in the AFC North said that Media and fan perception is rooted in recent results. And in order to change their stances, they have to see things turnaround. He felt the Giants have a good, solid core on the OL.
But as he said, they have to prove it.
The odd thing about it is that aside from NJ.com, none of the beat writers have really changed. They just stopped producing interesting content.
I think so. He was the best OL on the league's best unit. I thought it was interesting that Snee specifically said that Peart was athletic enough to play RIGHT tackle. It might be that the right side is better suited to his skill set after all.
I think so. He was damned good.
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Like Bobby Hart has quietly logged starts at right tackle. There are quite a few of these guys that keep getting signed based on experience that are actually pretty terrible.
Fulton has been far better than Hart..Don’t see the analogy
Didn't Fulton lead the league in sacks allowed last year?
I don't think he's been better than Hart at all, we just don't have any history to dislike him yet like we do with Bobby Hart.
Maybe I'm remembering things incorrectly, but I seem to recall Hernandez starting to regress in 2019, and then really stepped backwards in 2020 even before he contracted Covid.
I want to believe that the potential is still there, and I know the Giants have a lot of faith in him, but the results have not consistently been there for WH to date, IMO. I think he's the biggest liability on the line right now.
He is not the quickest guy off the snap and on the move, and seems like his lateral movement on pass blocking is somewhat "lazy" to pick a word. Giants need a bounceback from him badly.
I think the 2008 Chris Snee is the guy we remember, but that guy didn’t last long. If his father-in-law hadn’t been the head coach, the 2011 Snee might have gone the way of Kareem McKenzie.
But they still must sign another quality RB before the season begins for depth in the event Barkley misses playing time. Booker and Gainwell are not going to cut it. Every other top team has at least two top running backs. Damien Williams for example would have been a good signing that the Bears got on a one year contract. Khalil Herbert or Chris Evans would have been good "day three" draft picks. There is still time and options available so I am optimistic this will get addressed.
The OL may be "good enough" as Snee and the Giants suggest, but it sure would have been comforting to sign or draft a quality starter. Losing Zeitler and signing Fulton was a clear downgrade. Nothing about the recent performances of Peart, Hernandez or Lemieux gives me confidence that they will rise to the occasion this year. Perhaps signing Turner or another experienced starter is still in the works?
It will be a massive miscalculation if the OL is still bottom tier in 2021.
He is not the quickest guy off the snap and on the move, and seems like his lateral movement on pass blocking is somewhat "lazy" to pick a word. Giants need a bounceback from him badly.
Thing is, this was always the knock on Hernandez. He never was the most athletic guy. The hope was he could ride on how overwhelmingly strong he can be.
I think the 2008 Chris Snee is the guy we remember, but that guy didn’t last long. If his father-in-law hadn’t been the head coach, the 2011 Snee might have gone the way of Kareem McKenzie.
I agree with you on this. TC was a little too loyal with that OL (Snee and probably a couple others). Two Super Bowls and a son in law. Perhaps Judy gave TC him a mandate!
The enormous criticism this guy takes. He's rarely penalized, is one of the best run blocking OGs in the NFL, I haven't seen a player pancake as many dudes he does in a long time on the Giants. Allowed 1 sack last year.
And Lemieux, who objectively WAS NOT A GOOD PLAYER last year, never takes criticism. Albeit, it was a rookie year and he's a developmental player. Lemieux allowed 5 sacks last season.
Never in the history of the Giants has fan opinion been so topsy turvey vs on field performance as it is with Will Hernandez.
I think the problem is that many were expecting a Pro Bowler with where he was drafted instead of a good, decent statting Guard, which is what he is.
The enormous criticism this guy takes. He's rarely penalized, is one of the best run blocking OGs in the NFL, I haven't seen a player pancake as many dudes he does in a long time on the Giants. Allowed 1 sack last year.
And Lemieux, who objectively WAS NOT A GOOD PLAYER last year, never takes criticism. Albeit, it was a rookie year and he's a developmental player. Lemieux allowed 5 sacks last season.
Never in the history of the Giants has fan opinion been so topsy turvey vs on field performance as it is with Will Hernandez.
I think the problem is that many were expecting a Pro Bowler with where he was drafted instead of a good, decent starting Guard, which is what he is.i
Of course Lemieux takes criticism on here, particularly with his pass blocking which was sometimes an adventure imv. Where do you get "never"? But a rookie and 5th round draft pick is going to get far more leeway for his first 8 or so starts.
And there clearly were/are higher expectations for WH. He was #34 overall player taken in draft, and its been 3 years. He needs to be better, though I have to say I am surprised at the #2 Guard ranking...
The enormous criticism this guy takes. He's rarely penalized, is one of the best run blocking OGs in the NFL, I haven't seen a player pancake as many dudes he does in a long time on the Giants. Allowed 1 sack last year.
And Lemieux, who objectively WAS NOT A GOOD PLAYER last year, never takes criticism. Albeit, it was a rookie year and he's a developmental player. Lemieux allowed 5 sacks last season.
Never in the history of the Giants has fan opinion been so topsy turvey vs on field performance as it is with Will Hernandez.
I think the problem is that many were expecting a Pro Bowler with where he was drafted instead of a good, decent statting Guard, which is what he is.
You see with your own eyes that your QB is getting hit amongst the top s in the NFL. You see with your own eyes the Giants had the 31st ranked offense despite playing in a division was among the worst in NFL History.
I think your view is talented with big blue - giant big blue tint. I hope you are right. But I think l part of the problem is posters like you that have this heavy big blue tint shade only want to hear people that support your own pov.
You heard what SY thinks of our OL- but that doesn't count, right? You just want to go after us that don't support your pov, right? Otherwise, you know what SY has said, so why not accept that their is an alternate view than that of your own? I understand you disagree with it- so likewise I disagree with yours. But I want YOU to be RIGHT!!!!!!
I keep hearing this from people around the league. One guy from a team in the AFC North said that Media and fan perception is rooted in recent results. And in order to change their stances, they have to see things turnaround. He felt the Giants have a good, solid core on the OL.
But as he said, they have to prove it.
This is a fantastic observation. The Giants frankly have a few trust but verify groups.
I think this is a healthy line of thinking to apply to the quarterback (consistency) and running back (health) situations as well.
Last year they didn't grab a center in free agency or reach for one in the draft.
It was apparently a glaring omission and I wrote at the time that they had to have an answer at hand, on the roster. Obviously they did and Gates iis much more than an ordinary Center.
That was a heck of a show of competency against the odds. And the deck was stacked including no preseason no continuity, new systems and players who introduced to each other before the game. In spite of that they got better.
They've earned my trust and my confidence. I think there's real talent there to begin with. Bookend tackles, a very good Center, the guards only have to be adequate.
Let the good times roll
Also somebody earlier said they have a similar concern about the RB situation. We need to give the new guys on the team a chance to prove themselves before we as fans determine that our braintrust doesn't know what they are doing. I'm sure that they believe, that the necessary upgrades has already taken place.
Also somebody earlier said they have a similar concern about the RB situation. We need to give the new guys on the team a chance to prove themselves before we as fans determine that our braintrust doesn't know what they are doing. I'm sure that they believe, that the necessary upgrades has already taken place.
I am not arguing - but why do you have to trust the Giants scouts? Why can't you have skepticism? The "top scout" on here is very concerned about the Giants OL- so why can't there also be some skepticism?
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In comment 15257374 widmerseyebrow said:
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Like Bobby Hart has quietly logged starts at right tackle. There are quite a few of these guys that keep getting signed based on experience that are actually pretty terrible.
Fulton has been far better than Hart..Don’t see the analogy
Didn't Fulton lead the league in sacks allowed last year?
I don't think he's been better than Hart at all, we just don't have any history to dislike him yet like we do with Bobby Hart.
This take is lazy. Bobby Hart hasn’t played at a starting level for his entire career, while if you watch any games with Zach Fulton, he is playing at a noticeably higher level. Sacks are not a great way to judge OL talent.
Fulton and Solder both showed a pretty bad floor in their respective last seasons on the field.
I’m surprised the Giants opted for Nate Solder over Cam Fleming as the swing tackle.
Hernandez was a mauler for Saquan rookie year, was throwing people around, dont recall that he walked in front of saquan everywhere he walked to show how determined he was to protecting saquan, didnt do too terrible saquan was ROY. His pass blocking isnt sexy but he can be coached up to be serviceable in that category. Next year his regression was due to 2 things bad line play on BOTH sides of him. Halapito and pulley at center was a rotation of pff grade in the 50s and 60s the whole year. If the point of center is getting blown by he has to choose block my man, or the guy coming between him and center and thus is his second year so decision making may not be to nfl speed yet, obviously wasnt ready for that PLUS solder wasnt doing much better cause now he is insurance for Hernandez as hernandez slides in to help C position. Then next year he gets pulley/gates. Gates learning a new position. Solder opts out and now AT is struggling in his place as an injured rookie who toughed it out. Inconsistent line play again with 2 inexperienced players on each side. Then he contracts covid. People seem to misunderstand once you contract covid you have lasting effects that persist for months, sometimes years. Shortness of breathe, not being able to utilize full strength, easy fatigue. Hernandez couldnt play after that and sat out which was better for his health. We know what he looks like healthy and with somewhat competent line play, the mauler that got saquan OROY so no i wouldnt give up pn him due to that. He not only gets a pass but if line plays better Id give him another year possibly 2. Wanted to say that before the obvious. He has also had 3 line coaches, 2 head coaches, and apparentpy Judge was peaved Columbo was teaching poor technique which led to his releaseand the line playing better once david Guermillo came in. Rob sale now so 4 o line coach. Hiw can you speak consistency when you have 4 different coaches and 15 different o line rotations. No meshing of line.
Now Solder. I know everyone is mad we paid him soo much during a year we terribly needed to move on from Flowers. There were other suiters and the LT market was thin, i think it was whitworth, him and some bums. Whitworth got snagged we paniced and paid the man. According to resume it was right thing to do. We couldnt have another year of flowers without fan base ostracizing management. Solder had rookie Hernandez who had to help on C assignments consistantly cause of blown coverage which means he was manning too Edge talent plus filling the whole between him and hernandez. Again choose your poison. So his line play dipped due to that. He opted out for covid which was smart. He has history of cancer and his child has it. And to make up for the whole thing since his play didnt meet his salary he took a massive cut and restructured his contract to 4 mil this year and he still cant beat peart out of spot. We dont know him to be solely a swing tackle until season starts and they re evaluate line. So I give both of them a pass. Coaching changes, scheme changes, o line rotations, rookie growing pains is why I think everyones evaluation lacks facts.
In comment 15257480 NYGgolfer said:
He is not the quickest guy off the snap and on the move, and seems like his lateral movement on pass blocking is somewhat "lazy" to pick a word. Giants need a bounceback from him badly.
In comment 15257861 christian said:
Hernandez was a mauler for Saquan rookie year, was throwing people around, dont recall that he walked in front of saquan everywhere he walked to show how determined he was to protecting saquan, didnt do too terrible saquan was ROY. His pass blocking isnt sexy but he can be coached up to be serviceable in that category. Next year his regression was due to 2 things bad line play on BOTH sides of him. Halapito and pulley at center was a rotation of pff grade in the 50s and 60s the whole year. If the point of center is getting blown by he has to choose block my man, or the guy coming between him and center and thus is his second year so decision making may not be to nfl speed yet, obviously wasnt ready for that PLUS solder wasnt doing much better cause now he is insurance for Hernandez as hernandez slides in to help C position. Then next year he gets pulley/gates. Gates learning a new position. Solder opts out and now AT is struggling in his place as an injured rookie who toughed it out. Inconsistent line play again with 2 inexperienced players on each side. Then he contracts covid. People seem to misunderstand once you contract covid you have lasting effects that persist for months, sometimes years. Shortness of breathe, not being able to utilize full strength, easy fatigue. Hernandez couldnt play after that and sat out which was better for his health. We know what he looks like healthy and with somewhat competent line play, the mauler that got saquan OROY so no i wouldnt give up pn him due to that. He not only gets a pass but if line plays better Id give him another year possibly 2. Wanted to say that before the obvious. He has also had 3 line coaches, 2 head coaches, and apparentpy Judge was peaved Columbo was teaching poor technique which led to his releaseand the line playing better once david Guermillo came in. Rob sale now so 4 o line coach. Hiw can you speak consistency when you have 4 different coaches and 15 different o line rotations. No meshing of line.
Now Solder. I know everyone is mad we paid him soo much during a year we terribly needed to move on from Flowers. There were other suiters and the LT market was thin, i think it was whitworth, him and some bums. Whitworth got snagged we paniced and paid the man. According to resume it was right thing to do. We couldnt have another year of flowers without fan base ostracizing management. Solder had rookie Hernandez who had to help on C assignments consistantly cause of blown coverage which means he was manning too Edge talent plus filling the whole between him and hernandez. Again choose your poison. So his line play dipped due to that. He opted out for covid which was smart. He has history of cancer and his child has it. And to make up for the whole thing since his play didnt meet his salary he took a massive cut and restructured his contract to 4 mil this year and he still cant beat peart out of spot. We dont know him to be solely a swing tackle until season starts and they re evaluate line. So I give both of them a pass. Coaching changes, scheme changes, o line rotations, rookie growing pains is why I think everyones evaluation lacks facts.
In comment 15257480 NYGgolfer said:
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That is what I recall as well. His game declined in 2019 from his rookie year although would suggest it more uneven in 2020 than just even further decline.
He is not the quickest guy off the snap and on the move, and seems like his lateral movement on pass blocking is somewhat "lazy" to pick a word. Giants need a bounceback from him badly.
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I have said this more than once so try and keep up. Solder and Hernandez and what they have done for giants should be given a pass. First off lets start with Hernandez.
Hernandez was a mauler for Saquan rookie year, was throwing people around, dont recall that he walked in front of saquan everywhere he walked to show how determined he was to protecting saquan, didnt do too terrible saquan was ROY. His pass blocking isnt sexy but he can be coached up to be serviceable in that category.
Next year his regression was due to 2 things bad line play on BOTH sides of him. Halapito and pulley at center was a rotation of pff grade in the 50s and 60s the whole year. If the point of center is getting blown by he has to choose block my man, or the guy coming between him and center and thus is his second year so decision making may not be to nfl speed yet, obviously wasnt ready for that PLUS solder wasnt doing much better cause now he is insurance for Hernandez as hernandez slides in to help C position.
Then next year he gets pulley/gates. Gates learning a new position. Solder opts out and now AT is struggling in his place as an injured rookie who toughed it out. Inconsistent line play again with 2 inexperienced players on each side. Then he contracts covid.
People seem to misunderstand once you contract covid you have lasting effects that persist for months, sometimes years. Shortness of breathe, not being able to utilize full strength, easy fatigue. Hernandez couldnt play after that and sat out which was better for his health. We know what he looks like healthy and with somewhat competent line play, the mauler that got saquan OROY so no i wouldnt give up pn him due to that.
He not only gets a pass but if line plays better Id give him another year possibly 2. Wanted to say that before the obvious. He has also had 3 line coaches, 2 head coaches, and apparentpy Judge was peaved Columbo was teaching poor technique which led to his releaseand the line playing better once david Guermillo came in. Rob sale now so 4 o line coach. Hiw can you speak consistency when you have 4 different coaches and 15 different o line rotations. No meshing of line.
Now Solder. I know everyone is mad we paid him soo much during a year we terribly needed to move on from Flowers. There were other suiters and the LT market was thin, i think it was whitworth, him and some bums.
Whitworth got snagged we paniced and paid the man. According to resume it was right thing to do. We couldnt have another year of flowers without fan base ostracizing management. Solder had rookie Hernandez who had to help on C assignments consistantly cause of blown coverage which means he was manning too Edge talent plus filling the whole between him and hernandez.
Again choose your poison. So his line play dipped due to that. He opted out for covid which was smart. He has history of cancer and his child has it. And to make up for the whole thing since his play didnt meet his salary he took a massive cut and restructured his contract to 4 mil this year and he still cant beat peart out of spot.
We dont know him to be solely a swing tackle until season starts and they re evaluate line. So I give both of them a pass. Coaching changes, scheme changes, o line rotations, rookie growing pains is why I think everyones evaluation lacks facts.
I still can't keep up.
The basic facts that make me nervous:
- The Giants are on their third line coach in 14 months
- Hernandez is in year four and has not put together a full year of consistent pass and run blocking
- Both Fulton and Solder were statistically at the bottom of the league in pass protection in their respective last year on the field
- The same presumptive group minus Fleming was essentially the worst pass blocking unit in the NFL last year
As I posted above, I’m not blind to the positives. Gates was a stand out, and a nice surprise. Thomas developed well as the season progressed. Sale sounds exactly like the type of guy Judge is.
The Giants are taking a leap of faith that many factors will progress positively, because it’s certainly not a situation where they are building upon past success.
I think there will be bumps along the road for Judge as he develops his skills as a coach, and team architect. I won’t be surprised if this is one of them.
I can promise you that the staff knows so much that we don't.