I had the COVID and was stuck in isolation with lots of time to kill (luckily my symptoms were very mild) so I decided to go back and watch every Giants game a second time, 5 months after the season was over.
To put it bluntly, it was a totally different experience. Make no mistake about it, it was not nearly as fun, but I felt like I was able to be much more objective about performance with the outcomes already determined 5 months ago.
I learned very quickly that I am emotionally attached to the games, the players and the immediate results because that's part of the fun of being a fan during the season. It seemed like work at times (like the ARZ, Clev and Balt games) - BUT I'm glad I did it.
To completely plagiarize Peter King - these are the things I think, I think after rewatching all the games:
1.) The Giants are closer to being good than I previously thought and the reason for that is Joe Judge and his staff. Re-watching the games made it abundantly clear just how bad this roster was. There was very little talent to work with and the coaches seemed to play each game to "keep it close" because they had no shot at dominating anyone on either side of the ball. There was a three game stretch in which they were clearly outclassed after DJ was banged up or missing - The Cardinals game, the Browns game, and the Ravens game. Every other game that they played they had a legit shot at winning with some really terrible players getting significant reps.
2.) Daniel Jones is an enigma to me. Sometimes he looks every bit like an elite QB. He made some great throws into some tight windows to some bad receivers (more on that later). He is a real weapon when he is on the move, especially on designed run plays. I really do think he can be a Super Bowl winning QB - something that I DID not think before. here are the three things that bother me:
a.) Pocket Presence: he took more bad sacks than any other QBs the Giants played last year. He has to have a better understanding of where the pressure is coming from, when to get rid of the ball, and when not to press the issue. Eli had similar issues and he is a HOF. I do think DJ can get better with this.
b.) Protect Himself: make no mistake about it - he is an absolute WEAPON with the ball in his hands, but he took some absolute shots from defenders too frequently. He's not a small guy - it's not like RG3 out there or anything - but man did he get walloped too often for my liking. He's a gamer, which I love, but he was definitely nursing a serious injury after he was hurt in the Cincy game. He was just a different player after that.
c.) Decision Making: He threw some INTs that were not his fault, but he also threw some INTs that were bad and they were at bad times. The INTs at the end of the Bears and Rams games really stick out in my mind. Again, this is something Eli struggled with throughout his career and he got better when his weapons improved b/c not every throw had to be perfect. I think this will get better too.
3.) The Giants WRs stunk. I was completely wrong about this. They had no one that could break a tackle or run away from a defender. They had no one that could create significant separation consistently. There were very few plays in which I felt like a WR really battled to get into the end zone and make a highlight type run after the catch. Slayton is really good against CBs that would be considered JAGS (it was clear he wasn't the same player after the WFT game due to injury). Next year, with Kenny G on the scene - he's going to have a lot of favorable matchups, but he is no WR1. Shep is another enigma - there are times where I think he's a really good slot WR and other times where he goes long stretches and disappears. CJ Board, D. Rattley, Mack, and G. Tate (he had the worst body language of any player I saw) all played significant minutes and they all stink. We could have had BIll Walsh as the OC and he wasn't dialing up any offense with these guys. Garrett is better than many give him credit for.
4.) A healthy Barkley is going to run for 1700 yards and 15 TDS behind this OL. They turned a corner in the 2nd half of the Rams game and were a different group (they were bad in the Cardinals game) after that. Gallman, Morris, Lewis and Freeman left a TON of yards on the table. None of them could make anyone miss at the second level, none of them could break a tackle, and none of them were running away from anyone. The yards they did get were b/c of the offense line. At different points during the season they were really able to push some DLs around.
5.) The defense was the definition of bend but don't break despite having to play some really terrible defenders significant snaps. Bradberry is very good, but teams just stopped throwing in his direction b/c the other guy was just so bad. Yiadom, Lewis and Ballentine cost them a few games early in the year. None of them are good and were targeted A LOT. I think Love and Ryan are very similar players.
6.) LW is a star. I don't understand why people didn't want to pay him. Dalvin is going to be missed, but I'm interested in what A. Johnson can do with more snaps. He flashed quite a bit during the season. THat DL last year was very good - especially in the red zone. The Giants defense in the red zone, as a whole, was very good. Meanwhile, the Giants offense was terrible in the red zone.
7.) Evan Engram was better than I thought. If he could somehow find a way to get more consistent with his hands, he would be a star. He was the only guy on that offense that could get open with any kind of regularity. Garrett really made him the focal point of the offense b/c everyone else was bad. I think with Rudolph on the team next year - he can really be a difference maker because he won't have to run so many stick routes to the marker.
8.) Special teams were a mixed bag - which was a surprise being that Judge is the coach and the Giants special teams had been pretty good recently. Gano was very good. They had some untimely special team lapses which was very disappointing to see.
9.) I hate to say this, but I think the Giants were pretty unlucky last year. There were some crazy plays, ref calls, events that just killed them this year that seemed out of proportion compared to the teams they played. I get super angry when calls go against the Giants in the heat of the battle and my wife loves to poke the bear with comments like, "you wouldn't say that if it were against the Giants". But even watching it later, minus the emotion, it felt disproportionate. The crazy 4th down conversion in the Bears game and the fist Dallas game was riddled with calls the went against the Giants - that's just two that really stuck out in my mind. I guess the old saying that good teams make their own luck is true - the Giants lost a lot of games.
10.) The Giants schedule last year was hard. I am not overlooking the fact that the NFC east was not good...but they are still divisional games. Even when teams are bad, they always play divisional foes differently. Outside their own division, they played only 2 teams that had a losing record - the 49ers and Bengals. That schedule was no joke. It doesn't look like next year is going to be much easier, but they will be battle tested and have proven that they can hang.
If you actually read this far - I really feel like the arrow on this team is pointing up. I loved the draft and FA cycle and think the Giants have put themselves in a good spot moving forward. The optimist in me sees a franchise that has turned the corner.
So I don't know if he just feasted on scrubs... He was really coming on before injury.
I thought that the line (both run and pass blocking) was much improved beginning with the Bucs game (excluding the AZ game).
Your assessment of Jones is very similar to mine. He has all the physical and intangible traits you want in a QB. He can make every throw, he is often on-time and accurate, and he is a hard working, humble, tough guy. My question with him is the mental part of the game. More specifically, instinctual. He seems very smart, but he does not have a natural feel for the game. He makes the plays when they work as designed. When things go wrong or off schedule he struggles a lot.
I agree completely with your assessment of Engram as well. Like Jones, I wonder if that one fault is correctable. I can't think of a receiver who simply got better at catching the ball this many years into their career. I am not saying it never happened, but it doesn't seem common. Guys become better route runners and make better decisions on extended plays and with the ball in their hands, but they don't often get better at catching a football.
Like everyone else I am tired of watching the Giants lose, but I agree they are getting better. This year should make clear where we are on the right track and where adjustments are still needed.
So I don't know if he just feasted on scrubs... He was really coming on before injury.
Just to follow up on this, I know I'm quoting my own post, Barkley also went down in week 2 and I do believe it affected the ways defenses played us for the rest of the season, which also was a detriment to the WR's, as they could rush for and drop 7 into coverage pretty consistently.
That said, so if I was to re-watch the games now I wonder would it solidify these feelings for me, or would I go the other way?? lol
Quote:
He started the season against Pittsburgh with a pretty dominant game, 6 Rec for 102 yards and 2 TD's, and Pittsburgh ended up being the 3rd best defense in the NFL.
So I don't know if he just feasted on scrubs... He was really coming on before injury.
Just to follow up on this, I know I'm quoting my own post, Barkley also went down in week 2 and I do believe it affected the ways defenses played us for the rest of the season, which also was a detriment to the WR's, as they could rush for and drop 7 into coverage pretty consistently.
Tomlin made it very clear after the game that taking out SB was his number one focus. Garrett when be became OC said the same thing about SB when he was HC in Dallas. If he comes back as strong it is going to have a tremendous effect and now we have some serious threats on the outside. The OL and Jones need to deliver.
As far as DJ in point 2 - that's exactly my point. You pointed out the Bears and Rams game and that is where I saw the "growth". On balance they are bad interceptions but they came from hesitancy of just firing the ball away, showing me that ball security was a massive teaching point. Those ints went away as season progressed.
He absolutely does need to work on pocket awareness, but he does some good things early off snap, it's just as the clock ticks he completely loses tracks of things. Will this ever be fixable? IDK, but he does so many other things well, that not everyone is perfect at everything. This can also be ameliorated by investing into pass protection. I think we see some big investments into IOL and possibly tackle next year depending on how Peart does.
Quote:
negative comments lol. Did bw and Terps sleep in today?
Good one. Except now you made a negative comment! You blew it! Lol.
Ha ha, honestly bw and Terps bring balance and create some interesting conversations on here.
2.) DJ - I was not a fan of DJ at the end of the season. I was banging the table to get rid of him and start over with a new one (mainly Justin Fields) that way the new QB would grow with the young/new improving roster. I thought a lot of the WR problems were on DJ. I was wrong. I even went so far as to call the WR separation thing a myth - I was wrong. This team literally had no one with any sort of NFL caliber shake/quicks/moves whatever you want to call it. I am interested to see what he can do with all these weapons next year. If he had guys that could beat man press quickly from DBs or had a WR that could win jump balls constantly I don't think he would be sacked as much.
Your assessment of Jones is very similar to mine. He has all the physical and intangible traits you want in a QB. He can make every throw, he is often on-time and accurate, and he is a hard working, humble, tough guy. My question with him is the mental part of the game. More specifically, instinctual. He seems very smart, but he does not have a natural feel for the game. He makes the plays when they work as designed. When things go wrong or off schedule he struggles a lot.
I agree with that as well. I really like what he does pre snap, even in pocket awareness right off the jump, but when things break down, he's not exactly instinctual. I'm in boat where I think he just needs reps with a solid offense around him to get there, he's never had that before. Guranteed? No, but it's my opinion with all the intangibles he gets there. He's probably developed a lot of bad habits here because of all the crap around him since he's jumped from HS.
This is what I find encouraging. Of all the people I've argued with this over, I'd be lying if there wasn't a part of me that questioned whether I really was completely wrong and that maybe I'm seeing things that others weren't, or that weren't there. So I'm actually glad to hear that you had that opinion of DJ, but came away with a newfound optimism after re-watching the games. That's really encouraging.
I'm no expert, but it seems receivers who can get open would make decision making easier for any QB.
Judge is great
The wide receivers were terrible
Jones is an enigma
The schedule was hard
The Giants were unlucky
Leonard Williams is a star
Forgive me, but those are not exactly earth shattering insights. They've been bandied around here for months. And when "unlucky" and the "schedule was hard", not terribly objective either.
Feel better. Go Giants!
For all the wailing and gnashing of teeth on BBI about the OL and the pass rush, cornerback was a bigger problem, and that's been reflected in the signing of Jackson and the two draft picks.
Re Leonard Williams: DG gambled and won, and takes way too much shit for the gamble.
And pointed out the good and bad very pragmatically (especially Jones, Engram, WRs and what Graham had to work with)
Jones - Spot-on comparisons to Eli; Eli was very tough, so is Jones; Eli was smart, same for Jones; Eli was immobile and slow, Jones is the opposite; at the beginning Eli had a hard time sliding in the pocket and finding throwing lanes, same for Jones ....
Eli was average accurate, Jones is better but still has trouble "throwing at the numbers"; Eli was one of the very best throwing against the blitz, Jones has a long way to go.
Engram - He's the best player on the team; but, he's never going to be a good blocker; some of (not all) of his drops are Jones' fault - high inaccurate throws; He will excel with Rudolph on the field in two tight end sets.
Defense - Graham had to be a magician because he was out-manned at key positions, notably at Edge & CB/safety. Ojulari, Jackson and the return of McKinney
I felt like he meant to say Slayton isn't a #1.
Engram - He's the best player on the team
Say what? Are we talking about the same team?
Quote:
of the team I have seen on here. Thank you for taking the time to share it.
Your assessment of Jones is very similar to mine. He has all the physical and intangible traits you want in a QB. He can make every throw, he is often on-time and accurate, and he is a hard working, humble, tough guy. My question with him is the mental part of the game. More specifically, instinctual. He seems very smart, but he does not have a natural feel for the game. He makes the plays when they work as designed. When things go wrong or off schedule he struggles a lot.
I agree with that as well. I really like what he does pre snap, even in pocket awareness right off the jump, but when things break down, he's not exactly instinctual. I'm in boat where I think he just needs reps with a solid offense around him to get there, he's never had that before. Guranteed? No, but it's my opinion with all the intangibles he gets there. He's probably developed a lot of bad habits here because of all the crap around him since he's jumped from HS.
That's fair, and I hope it is right. Experience will help him. I am most concerned with the fact I don't think you develop instincts this many years after playing - and playing behind a bad line and with bad receivers in college too. This isn't a guy like Haskins last year that is used to standing in the pocket unhurried and waiting for a guy to come wide open.
If it doesn't start kicking in this year I don't think it will.
Misarable luck.
Jones was best part of offense....
Engram drops that lead to INTs were mind boggling
Go Giants
Misarable luck.
Jones was best part of offense....
Engram drops that lead to INTs were mind boggling
Go Giants
Misarable luck.
Jones was best part of offense....
Engram drops that lead to INTs were mind boggling
Go Giants
That Ravens game was plain embarrassing for the defense, especially since we pride ourselves on stopping the run and Graham wasn’t able to adjust.
Quote:
That's fair, and I hope it is right. Experience will help him. I am most concerned with the fact I don't think you develop instincts this many years after playing - and playing behind a bad line and with bad receivers in college too. This isn't a guy like Haskins last year that is used to standing in the pocket unhurried and waiting for a guy to come wide open.
If it doesn't start kicking in this year I don't think it will.
When things are shit all the time, it's hard to see past all the bullets and not the occasional one if that analogy makes any sense lol.
What I know is going to happen is people are going to jump to conclusions after our first few games, but I'm more concerned with what he looks like in November and December. He needs live game reps. If it hasn't clicked by then, we'll be using our draft capital for the next guy. I really don't think this is going to happen though after what I saw from him last year. He'll make the jump imo.
The challenge is the Giants offense can't go into neutral in case of another Barkley injury, so they'll need to figure out a contingency for that.
Good post though and agree with most of the sentiments you listed out particularly on the WRs and a few other subtle ones you put in like how well the red-zone Defense played as year went on, and how Specials became somewhat of a problem. These couple of comments though don't fit the 2020 season from my perspective...
- Would love if Jones develops further and becomes our guy. Very much support giving him a 3rd year but I didn't ever see "elite QB" in what he showed us in 2020, not even sometimes. That is a subjective term I know, but lots of QBs make a couple throws each game that look great. I would be happy if he reached very good but I can't get there on an elite ceiling in his grasp. Agree with the 2a 2b and 2c though as to issues.
- Giants were not pretty unlucky in 2020. At least not to the point it was net against them overall. They had plenty of times the "ball bounced" in the their favor as well. Hell, we might lose the last game vs Dallas if Gallman's ass doesn't land on his own fumble. Nevertheless, you know the point.
Good read. thx
Well almost all of it. I can't say I agree on the Engram part but I digress :)
In 2021, they need to show us the talent gap is closing and for the young core of the team to begin to play above the X's and O's.
Tate was a shell of himself, Slayton can't be "the guy" and Shep missed time. Outside of that the Ratleys, Macks and Boards didn't have a place on an NFL roster. They weren't just back ups, they were really bad back ups. Pair that with not having a real #1, our best WR Shep missing time and Tate regressing and you have a really bad mix.
Same goes for CB, we found ways to get production out of the likes of Ryan Lewis and Isaac Yiadom for goodness sake. Graham needs way, way more credit for that.
I have never been impressed with Jones's decision making if he has to rapidly go through the reads. His release is average (at best) and he seems to get stuck pulling the trigger. There is a workaround for that - better protection - but I'm not sure this OL is it's current form solves that (yet).
I'm mostly on an island with a few posters on this one, but I think Garrett did a terrific job last year stitching together an offense with the limitations along the OL and Jones. With more options now, I expect he'll add a few more chapters to his playbook.
I have never been impressed with Jones's decision making if he has to rapidly go through the reads. His release is average (at best) and he seems to get stuck pulling the trigger. There is a workaround for that - better protection - but I'm not sure this OL is it's current form solves that (yet).
I'm mostly on an island with a few posters on this one, but I think Garrett did a terrific job last year stitching together an offense with the limitations along the OL and Jones. With more options now, I expect he'll add a few more chapters to his playbook.
It is no different than when they made the decision to keep Eli and thought adding Barkley was enough. I maintain Eli was not the problem, but an absolutely horrendous OL was.
No different than bringing in an OC for the WCO as the answer to poor OL play.
Ultimately, they have yet to put out a decent OL. This will continue to hamper the offense, regardless of the skill level of the rest of the offense. With no time, a young QBs effectiveness will be very limited and his propensity for fumbling will continue to be tested.
The one thing that stuck out to me last year watching this young team struggle was that they appeared to be mentally tough and did not quit even in blowouts, but they were also too slow on both sides of the ball to really compete. To borrow a baseball analogy, the Giants were more akin to a hitter who is a tough out and makes the pitcher work for it every at bat, but not a threat to knock it out of the park on any given pitch. My assessment of the 2021 FA and Draft is that the Giants staff and front office knew they had to increase the speed on both sides of the ball, even if the player was not an exact fit or was joining a crowded position. And boy did they get some speed!
I am cautiously optimistic about 2021, but they really need to stop talking about winning games and start doing it.
The Giants game from week 17 vs Dallas at home last year popped up on my recommendation on YouTube and I forgot they even played that game and ... to be honest, I forgot who even won.
Giants games have been so forgettable over the last 10 years or so that I can never remember which year was what. We've had so many losers on this team that I would have a hard time passing a test was who was on the roster over the last 10 years. But for some reason from 2005-2012 I can remember all the games and everything else, especially 2007. The year they won... duh lol
I remember recently looking at the 2019 schedule and I saw they lost to Chicago on the road and I don't remember that game at all.
Giants stink. Gettleman stinks. Joe judge stinks. Daniel Jones stinks.
Hopefully that upward trajectory comprises of more than 7 wins in a season.
Quoting Dnew, who gave Engram a left-handed compliment - "Garrett really made him the focal point of the offense b/c everyone else was bad"
The Seahawks live with the same situation with DK Metcalf, (who has a better QB throwing to him) will look spectacular one play, then inexplicably bad the next.
To be honest, I don't really know who needs to improve more - Dan Jones or Evan Engram (I suspect Jones).
The Giants game from week 17 vs Dallas at home last year popped up on my recommendation on YouTube and I forgot they even played that game and ... to be honest, I forgot who even won.
Giants games have been so forgettable over the last 10 years or so that I can never remember which year was what. We've had so many losers on this team that I would have a hard time passing a test was who was on the roster over the last 10 years. But for some reason from 2005-2012 I can remember all the games and everything else, especially 2007. The year they won... duh lol
I remember recently looking at the 2019 schedule and I saw they lost to Chicago on the road and I don't remember that game at all.
Giants stink. Gettleman stinks. Joe judge stinks. Daniel Jones stinks.
The Giants game from week 17 vs Dallas at home last year popped up on my recommendation on YouTube and I forgot they even played that game and ... to be honest, I forgot who even won.
Giants games have been so forgettable over the last 10 years or so that I can never remember which year was what. We've had so many losers on this team that I would have a hard time passing a test was who was on the roster over the last 10 years. But for some reason from 2005-2012 I can remember all the games and everything else, especially 2007. The year they won... duh lol
I remember recently looking at the 2019 schedule and I saw they lost to Chicago on the road and I don't remember that game at all.
Giants stink. Gettleman stinks. Joe judge stinks. Daniel Jones stinks.
Umm, have a great weekend?
I'm still confused. You said
Engram - He's the best player on the team
If you're saying Engram was our #1 target last year, I agree (unfortunately, he was), but to say "best player on the team"? Whaaa?
I think the keys to Giants this year are their OL and CB's.
***With that said, the OP is looking at the games thru his Big Blue Tainted Sunglasses.
Dallas and Philly were decimated by injuries. The Giants were lucky for that.
We hear on here many say, they go with the "experts" who say Giants are fine for example with OL - yet then what about Philly not taking the QB? Instead they got the WR that supposedly the Giants wanted and the OG?C that many Giants would have loved to have gotten in rd 2. Their "experts" seem to think their QB is fine, don't they? SO "our guys" are "right" and we dismiss their guys? The team that has basically owned us?
And we hard many on here make mention how well the Giants finished- 5-3. Well Wash finished 5-2. So our 5-3 was "real" and their 5-2 wasn't?
And let's face it- The Giants were lucky to win that 2nd game vs WFT.
The Giants game from week 17 vs Dallas at home last year popped up on my recommendation on YouTube and I forgot they even played that game and ... to be honest, I forgot who even won.
Giants games have been so forgettable over the last 10 years or so that I can never remember which year was what. We've had so many losers on this team that I would have a hard time passing a test was who was on the roster over the last 10 years. But for some reason from 2005-2012 I can remember all the games and everything else, especially 2007. The year they won... duh lol
I remember recently looking at the 2019 schedule and I saw they lost to Chicago on the road and I don't remember that game at all.
Giants stink. Gettleman stinks. Joe judge stinks. Daniel Jones stinks.
Take a deep breath and say Om. Repeat.
If you prefer, say Ohm. (it's hard to resist!)
We hear on here many say, they go with the "experts" who say Giants are fine for example with OL - yet then what about Philly not taking the QB? Instead they got the WR that supposedly the Giants wanted and the OG?C that many Giants would have loved to have gotten in rd 2. Their "experts" seem to think their QB is fine, don't they? SO "our guys" are "right" and we dismiss their guys? The team that has basically owned us?
Their "experts seem to think their QB is fine?" The Eagles wanted Zach Wilson and would have traded up for him if the Jets made that pick available. The Eagles aren't sticking with Hurts because they think he is a franchise QB. They're sticking with him because the QB they wanted was unavailable and they didn't like the others enough. They will draft a QB next year.