Would you put Toney in the same class as Smith and/or Waddle.?
Would you rate Ohujari with Micah Parsons?
Do you think Robinson close to Patrick Surtain /Jaycee Horn?
we knew before the draft. Toney is rated highly by some and not so high by others. The others seem to be rated consistently higher.
Ojulari was always rated pretty high and got dinged by injuries. We still dont know the extent of the injuries. He dropped to the 50th pick so a guy with that much pass rush talent fell pretty far so it says to me that a lot of teams are worried about his knee including the Giants. He has an asterisk next to his name.
As for CB, he was never rated as high as the others and nothing has changed.
Until the pads go on my opinion of the players will not change. I really liked the draft but players get picked where they get picked for reasons that we dont know about. Sy is a scout and his opinion matters to me because he does the work on these guys. hes not always right but he has watched a lot of tape on these guys not just the highlight reels. On paper its a good draft. We'll see.
Although I am skeptical about Waddle since he did not run prior to the draft and the only game film post injury was not good (even though he clearly wasn’t healthy).
Toney is not the refined route runner that Smith or Waddle are, but he is certainly a dynamic receiver, much like Waddle. Smith is the most well rounded in that group. Waddle has the long speed, but Toney has the electric moves in space. Toney could end up being the best of the bunch in a few years, but he’s clearly not there yet.
Ojulari and Parsons.....hmmm well Ojulari is more of an Edge LBer and will be a pass rusher in our scheme, whereas Parsons is more suited to playing ILB, but who knows what Quinn will have in store for him. Both are good at stopping the run and both could be very good LBers in their respective schemes. Who knows right now. I do have high hopes for Ojulari however. When was the last time the Giants had an Edge defender or OLB with his skills?
Surtain and Horn are both very good in man coverage. Horn is supposedly more grabby and so I’d give the edge to Surtain as the more refined CB, but I do not know too much more about them. I’m just glad nobody in our Division ended up with either, if we couldn’t.
Would you put Toney in the same class as Smith and/or Waddle.?
Yes, but Smith is a true X receiver, Waddle more of a slot guy, and Toney an X,Y, or Z guy who can also be a change of pace RB. All three are unique talents. Smith will go on as one of the top receivers in the NFL making mucho dinera some day. Toney and Waddle will be exciting players to watch, but won't get the fame of Smith after a few years.
Quote:
Would you rate Ohujari with Micah Parsons?
Comparing apples to oranges IMO. Parsons is more of an inside LB and not particularly focused or disciplined. Ojulari is and outside LB who can play either side and is lazer focused and very disciplined. Parsons is probably more athletic, but Ojulari if healthy will be more productive. Edge to Ojulari
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Do you think Robinson close to Patrick Surtain /Jaycee Horn?
Horn and Surtain are going to be groomed for the outside as potential shut down corners. They will be assigned to cover the X receiver. Robinson is ideal as a nickel CB with the potential to cover on the outside as well. All three are exceptional prospects, but definitely an edge to Horn and Surtain as they will get the job that is most difficult in the NFL compared to all defensive backs.
Toney and Smith are very different players. So I don’t even know how you really compare them to be honest. And if Robinson was in the same class as Surtain and Horn, at least from an entering the league perspective he would have went in the first round, not the third. Surtain and Horn were top 10 picks.
Although I am skeptical about Waddle since he did not run prior to the draft and the only game film post injury was not good (even though he clearly wasn’t healthy).
Same. The real question is how much drop off and we can’t possibly know until they start playing. Coaching, scheme, and determination makes players take different paths all the time.
Is that Joe Judge is the head coach the Giants have been looking for since 1991. He has completely changed the culture of the Giants in one year. E
xpectations for 2021 are probably going to be unrealistic and there will be a backslash with some of the fan base if this years team doesn't have a winning record.
I think they will but unless all of sudden Joe Judge morphs into a completely different football person than we saw last year I think it's only a matter of a short time until the glory days are back.
Is that Joe Judge is the head coach the Giants have been looking for since 1991. He has completely changed the culture of the Giants in one year. E
xpectations for 2021 are probably going to be unrealistic and there will be a backslash with some of the fan base if this years team doesn't have a winning record.
I think they will but unless all of sudden Joe Judge morphs into a completely different football person than we saw last year I think it's only a matter of a short time until the glory days are back.
I love Judge,but I think that Coughlin guy was okay as a HC,don't you?
I now believe that Smith and Waddle are far superior to Toney. Parsons is significantly better than Ojulari. And Armstrong isn't in the same class as Horn and Surtain.
Let's hope a year from now after we have seen them play in the NFL that this will change in favor of the Giants...
1) Different players develop at different rates. NFL coaches thought Kurt Warner was a camp body in 1999, before injuries forced him to start. Tom Brady was a sixth round draft choice, who was thought at the time had potential to backup eventually. There were plenty of "Can't Miss" players as well who bombed out...too many to count.
2) It takes time to adjust to the level of play at the NFL for most players. Rookies will have ups and downs, for the most part. Some of them have had only partial seasons, or no seasons at all if they opted out. That will affect their development.
3) Coaching. Some players get better coaching than others. That's a huge factor; not all coaches are equal, and some players develop faster with great teaching (something I think is happening here in NY).
4) Different players in different situations. Smith is going to be the primary focus in Philly, but he's only going to be as good as Hurts is. Toney, I think, won't start off as the primary target in NY, so there's less pressure on him.
As a guide, it normally takes about three years to assess a high draft choice's development in the NFL; it may take even longer with covid, and with all the coaching changes that have happened recently. I know everyone wants to know the final results now, but that's unrealistic.
I can say that the odds of Smith, Waddle and Parsons
Smith and Waddle are fairly complete players with known skills. They will develop but are not going to surprise the defense. The defense will be clear in their assignments, regardless of where the receivers line up. When Toney gets on the field, the defenders will not know how to cover him if and until he starts to motion. Right now, that is the only advantage the Giants will have from Toney. Who know who he will develop into?
Parsons is better and Parsons offers unlimited potential. He may be a very good inside backer. He may be a very good Edge rusher. No one knows but for sure right now he is at least equal to any other LB/Edge picked.
Robinson may be more versatile. That’s it. He probably isn’t better but he may be just as good as Surtain and Horn.
RE: NO to all 3 questions but there is more to say.
Smith and Waddle are fairly complete players with known skills. They will develop but are not going to surprise the defense. The defense will be clear in their assignments, regardless of where the receivers line up. When Toney gets on the field, the defenders will not know how to cover him if and until he starts to motion. Right now, that is the only advantage the Giants will have from Toney. Who know who he will develop into?
Parsons is better and Parsons offers unlimited potential. He may be a very good inside backer. He may be a very good Edge rusher. No one knows but for sure right now he is at least equal to any other LB/Edge picked.
Robinson may be more versatile. That’s it. He probably isn’t better but he may be just as good as Surtain and Horn.
Well said. From a pure receiver standpoint Toney is a raw prospect. From a playmaker perspective he has excellent tackle breaking skills, great quickness, and nice speed. If he develops as a route runner and can do more than gadget type plays he could be just as good as the other 2, time will tell.
But overall I'd say no to all 3 because I think as fans we tend to overrate our players/teams on draft day / and/or when overall we hear nearly all good.
6 or 7 quality slot WRs in this draft (Waddle being the supposed best of all). Toney is being knocked a bit for his route tree skills otherwise he is dynamic with the ball in his hands and has plenty of speed and a fair amount of toughness. But to say which is going to be the best of the bunch as of right now is ludicrous. They all need to take the field, then how are they going to be utilized, who is going to take to coaching the best, and last but not least who can stay healthy and avoid the injury bug.
Toney is very talented and I have no problem putting him in the same conversation with Smith and Waddle. If Waddle is healthy, however, and that game-breaking ability he showed at Bama conveys to the pros, he's going to be the biggest problem to deal with...
Big fan of Ojulari, but Parsons is more multiple. I have no problem envisioning him playing inside or outside for Dallas. And being very good at both.
I hope we did the right thing passing on him - due to the personality/locker room concerns - because Parsons is different on a football field.
But until they actually play a full season and in their various schemes, hard to judge now how the pro results will look.
Plain, and simple the Giants got snookered on Smith by Philly, so time will tell, but I don’t think Toney was even in the Giants thoughts prior to the draft. Snookered, and snookered good.
is that any player drafted by the Giants was going to be an HOF candidate, a steal, a diamond in the rough guaranteed to be polished by the Giants (really doesn't matter who the coach is, whomever is currently in the role is the right man for the job), or just the right piece of the puzzle.
What we know after the draft is who the players are, and how to twist the narrative to fit the above.
Plain, and simple the Giants got snookered on Smith by Philly, so time will tell, but I don’t think Toney was even in the Giants thoughts prior to the draft. Snookered, and snookered good.
No question they got jumped by the Eagles, but rather than bid against them for Smith they brokered another deal, and a pretty good one.
Toney had to be somewhere in the Giants thoughts unless you feel they grabbed him from Daniel Jeremiah's mock draft sheet online.
Anything's possible. Last season, Justin Jefferson, picked at 22 and
the 5th receiver taken, had a better rookie year than the receivers who were acknowledged by all the so-called experts to be superior to him. Whether that will be the case with Toney or not, it's anyone's guess.
Plain, and simple the Giants got snookered on Smith by Philly, so time will tell, but I don’t think Toney was even in the Giants thoughts prior to the draft. Snookered, and snookered good.
No question they got jumped by the Eagles, but rather than bid against them for Smith they brokered another deal, and a pretty good one.
Toney had to be somewhere in the Giants thoughts unless you feel they grabbed him from Daniel Jeremiah's mock draft sheet online.
When Philly made the jump there was Nothing the Giants could do, and even if Smith would have been gone Toney would not have been picked at 11. The #1 for next year that everyone is raving about does not do anything for them this year, and that is all that. Matters right now.
Plain, and simple the Giants got snookered on Smith by Philly, so time will tell, but I don’t think Toney was even in the Giants thoughts prior to the draft. Snookered, and snookered good.
No question they got jumped by the Eagles, but rather than bid against them for Smith they brokered another deal, and a pretty good one.
Toney had to be somewhere in the Giants thoughts unless you feel they grabbed him from Daniel Jeremiah's mock draft sheet online.
When Philly made the jump there was Nothing the Giants could do, and even if Smith would have been gone Toney would not have been picked at 11. The #1 for next year that everyone is raving about does not do anything for them this year, and that is all that. Matters right now.
Those are different points.
Toney was not picked at #11 but he most certainly does something for them right now. The draft doesn't end at pick 11 every year. You suggested Toney was some kind of after-thought when they were on the clock at #20 which sounds just made up but will let you explain.
As to how the Draft works, it isn't just about right now. Toney will help them in 2021 and for his entire rookie contract, as will the players they will draft with the extra picks in 2022.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: these are really silly questions
Plain, and simple the Giants got snookered on Smith by Philly, so time will tell, but I don’t think Toney was even in the Giants thoughts prior to the draft. Snookered, and snookered good.
No question they got jumped by the Eagles, but rather than bid against them for Smith they brokered another deal, and a pretty good one.
Toney had to be somewhere in the Giants thoughts unless you feel they grabbed him from Daniel Jeremiah's mock draft sheet online.
When Philly made the jump there was Nothing the Giants could do, and even if Smith would have been gone Toney would not have been picked at 11. The #1 for next year that everyone is raving about does not do anything for them this year, and that is all that. Matters right now.
Those are different points.
Toney was not picked at #11 but he most certainly does something for them right now. The draft doesn't end at pick 11 every year. You suggested Toney was some kind of after-thought when they were on the clock at #20 which sounds just made up but will let you explain.
As to how the Draft works, it isn't just about right now. Toney will help them in 2021 and for his entire rookie contract, as will the players they will draft with the extra picks in 2022.
The bottom line is that the Giants wanted Smith, and so didn’t a lot on here. The report came out when Philly snookered the Giants were pissed, and Toney ended up as the consulation prize. I understand how the draft works at doesn’t end at 11, but don’t tell me this was the Giants plan all along, because it wasn’t. They got Snookered, and time will tell how everything works out starting with the first Philly game.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: these are really silly questions
Plain, and simple the Giants got snookered on Smith by Philly, so time will tell, but I don’t think Toney was even in the Giants thoughts prior to the draft. Snookered, and snookered good.
No question they got jumped by the Eagles, but rather than bid against them for Smith they brokered another deal, and a pretty good one.
Toney had to be somewhere in the Giants thoughts unless you feel they grabbed him from Daniel Jeremiah's mock draft sheet online.
When Philly made the jump there was Nothing the Giants could do, and even if Smith would have been gone Toney would not have been picked at 11. The #1 for next year that everyone is raving about does not do anything for them this year, and that is all that. Matters right now.
Those are different points.
Toney was not picked at #11 but he most certainly does something for them right now. The draft doesn't end at pick 11 every year. You suggested Toney was some kind of after-thought when they were on the clock at #20 which sounds just made up but will let you explain.
As to how the Draft works, it isn't just about right now. Toney will help them in 2021 and for his entire rookie contract, as will the players they will draft with the extra picks in 2022.
The bottom line is that the Giants wanted Smith, and so didn’t a lot on here. The report came out when Philly snookered the Giants were pissed, and Toney ended up as the consulation prize. I understand how the draft works at doesn’t end at 11, but don’t tell me this was the Giants plan all along, because it wasn’t. They got Snookered, and time will tell how everything works out starting with the first Philly game.
They should have known he'd be picked early, and he was still on the board when the Giants traded down.
Plain, and simple the Giants got snookered on Smith by Philly, so time will tell, but I don’t think Toney was even in the Giants thoughts prior to the draft. Snookered, and snookered good.
As usual, you are wrong and just a bitter person. The only thing you got right was the Philly traded ahead of the Giants.
DG, JJ and Petitt already said they went through all these scenarios and had been contacted by the Bears earlier in the week (Twice in fact). Clearly the Giants had considered Smith being taken ahead of them (when or how it happened is unimportant).
They clearly had most of a deal worked out with the Bears ahead of time so they clearly knew there was a good possibility for him to be drafted ahead of them. You do not come up with a trade like that in 5 minutes - they announced the deal with over 4 minutes remaining on the clock.
So, JJ said they gamed all scenarios at about 6pm on day 1. They already had the Bears offer in place prior to the draft. They knew who they would pick in each case. They were comfortable with what would likely be available at #20 and Toney obviously was one of those players. It was reported that the Vikes wanted to trade, also.
The Giants were not snookered(implying the Eagles pulled one over on them by tricking them). They knew there were possibilities players they wanted at 11 would not be there. The Giants may have snookered the league by trading with the Bears and getting an extra #1 and #4 and still getting a player they wanted.
the Giants had a game plan for 11 and then pulled the trigger on a trade after plan A was no longer an option. That is the definition of having a plan in place. In years past they would have settled on another player at 11.
To suggest they didn’t plan on picking Toney means they didn’t even bother ranking the WRs outside of the top 3. Absolutely preposterous take to have.
You are posting with an agenda and everything that happened debunks your agenda. Posting it over and over doesn’t change that.
As usual, you are wrong and just a bitter person. The only thing you got right was the Philly traded ahead of the Giants.
DG, JJ and Petitt already said they went through all these scenarios and had been contacted by the Bears earlier in the week (Twice in fact). Clearly the Giants had considered Smith being taken ahead of them (when or how it happened is unimportant).
They clearly had most of a deal worked out with the Bears ahead of time so they clearly knew there was a good possibility for him to be drafted ahead of them. You do not come up with a trade like that in 5 minutes - they announced the deal with over 4 minutes remaining on the clock.
So, JJ said they gamed all scenarios at about 6pm on day 1. They already had the Bears offer in place prior to the draft. They knew who they would pick in each case. They were comfortable with what would likely be available at #20 and Toney obviously was one of those players. It was reported that the Vikes wanted to trade, also.
The Giants were not snookered(implying the Eagles pulled one over on them by tricking them). They knew there were possibilities players they wanted at 11 would not be there. The Giants may have snookered the league by trading with the Bears and getting an extra #1 and #4 and still getting a player they wanted.
That Vikes tidbit is interesting, where did you hear that? Wondering what the offer was? If it was competitive, be interesting how AVT vs Toney shakes down (I think he’s be the assumed pick there at 14)
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: these are really silly questions
The bottom line is that the Giants wanted Smith, and so didn’t a lot on here. The report came out when Philly snookered the Giants were pissed, and Toney ended up as the consulation prize. I understand how the draft works at doesn’t end at 11, but don’t tell me this was the Giants plan all along, because it wasn’t. They got Snookered, and time will tell how everything works out starting with the first Philly game.
Per a report on CBS Sports, the Giants were apparently livid at Philly jumping over them. And getting Smith was the top priority.
But they adjusted, traded down, and got a very good player in Toney.
Now, I'm coming at this from the perspective that I didn't like Smith as a high pick due to his body type, so I'm glad we didn't select him...;)
That Vikes tidbit is interesting, where did you hear that? Wondering what the offer was? If it was competitive, be interesting how AVT vs Toney shakes down (I think he’s be the assumed pick there at 14)
I do not remember where it came from. May have been one of the other sites that people quote on BBI. May have been in the papers. I saw it, it did not surprise me since there were hints that other teams looking for a QB may have talked to the Giants about moving up. I am certain the Vikes were mentioned after the draft was over. Report did not specify the offer.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: these are really silly questions
The bottom line is that the Giants wanted Smith, and so didn’t a lot on here. The report came out when Philly snookered the Giants were pissed, and Toney ended up as the consulation prize. I understand how the draft works at doesn’t end at 11, but don’t tell me this was the Giants plan all along, because it wasn’t. They got Snookered, and time will tell how everything works out starting with the first Philly game.
Yet another pivot, nobody suggested this was the Giants plan all along, nor that they didn't want Smith at #11. However, he wasn't available at #11 so they had to adjust. Or are you now recommending they should have traded up in this series of weak observations?
Most importantly, you originally said above Toney wasn't even a thought for them and I asked why that was if in fact they picked him 9 slots later. You can answer or you can ignore, but the latter will just suggest to me you wish you didn't go down this path with such a post.
The bottom line is that the Giants wanted Smith, and so didn’t a lot on here. The report came out when Philly snookered the Giants were pissed, and Toney ended up as the consulation prize. I understand how the draft works at doesn’t end at 11, but don’t tell me this was the Giants plan all along, because it wasn’t. They got Snookered, and time will tell how everything works out starting with the first Philly game.
Yet another pivot, nobody suggested this was the Giants plan all along, nor that they didn't want Smith at #11. However, he wasn't available at #11 so they had to adjust. Or are you now recommending they should have traded up in this series of weak observations?
Most importantly, you originally said above Toney wasn't even a thought for them and I asked why that was if in fact they picked him 9 slots later. You can answer or you can ignore, but the latter will just suggest to me you wish you didn't go down this path with such a post.
I wasn’t for any WR in round 1, and have been all about fixing the O line since FA, and I still say the O line needs fixing, so I only would have traded up for Sewell.
I never hard Toney’s name mentioned once in all the mock drafts by all the experts around the league, or any BBI with all their mocks. Of course the thinking of who was going at 11, and not 20, but Philly snookered the Giants, and jumped ahead pissing off the Giants brain trust according to reports.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: these are really silly questions
The bottom line is that the Giants wanted Smith, and so didn’t a lot on here. The report came out when Philly snookered the Giants were pissed, and Toney ended up as the consulation prize. I understand how the draft works at doesn’t end at 11, but don’t tell me this was the Giants plan all along, because it wasn’t. They got Snookered, and time will tell how everything works out starting with the first Philly game.
Yet another pivot, nobody suggested this was the Giants plan all along, nor that they didn't want Smith at #11. However, he wasn't available at #11 so they had to adjust. Or are you now recommending they should have traded up in this series of weak observations?
Most importantly, you originally said above Toney wasn't even a thought for them and I asked why that was if in fact they picked him 9 slots later. You can answer or you can ignore, but the latter will just suggest to me you wish you didn't go down this path with such a post.
I wasn’t for any WR in round 1, and have been all about fixing the O line since FA, and I still say the O line needs fixing, so I only would have traded up for Sewell.
I never hard Toney’s name mentioned once in all the mock drafts by all the experts around the league, or any BBI with all their mocks. Of course the thinking of who was going at 11, and not 20, but Philly snookered the Giants, and jumped ahead pissing off the Giants brain trust according to reports.
I got the snookered view, now several times. No need to repeat unless you have a typing disorder.
So now the story has changed from Toney wasn't even a thought for the Giants to now you never heard his name mentioned by all the experts/mocks as a possibility at #20. And now its also you never wanted a WR for the Giants anyway.
How odd that every expert didn't create every scenario possibility of a trade down and who the Giants would/should pick at their new slot. Or that you don't have access to their tiered draft board that showed Toney was one of several players the Giants may have been considering at #20 or so.
Do you want to continue this nonsense or have you had enough? If you keep going at least it gives you a chance to say they were snookered again.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: these are really silly questions
I wasn’t for any WR in round 1, and have been all about fixing the O line since FA, and I still say the O line needs fixing, so I only would have traded up for Sewell.
I never hard Toney’s name mentioned once in all the mock drafts by all the experts around the league, or any BBI with all their mocks. Of course the thinking of who was going at 11, and not 20, but Philly snookered the Giants, and jumped ahead pissing off the Giants brain trust according to reports.
So what? The Giants may have been pissed, but they didn't panic. On the contrary, they turned a negative into a positive, setting themselves up nicely in the 2022 draft, and still getting another playmaker for their offense.
So, you never heard Toney's name mentioned at all. Again, so what? No one should be privy to the Giants' board except those who actually make the picks. Sure, it was no secret they liked Smith. Who wouldn't? But you can't always get what you want, and it's not liked they reached for Toney. He went just about where most pundits predicted he'd go. And if they were still butthurt about losing Smith, the picks they got for next year's draft should no doubt help ease that pain.
As for the O-Line, they invested heavily in it in last year's draft, and reports are they feel better about it going forward than most fans. So be it. Clearly, in this draft they were focused on strengthening their pass-rush and reinforcing their secondary. That part of their plan worked out nicely for them.
Usually Risk grows the further down the draft..
Ojulari was always rated pretty high and got dinged by injuries. We still dont know the extent of the injuries. He dropped to the 50th pick so a guy with that much pass rush talent fell pretty far so it says to me that a lot of teams are worried about his knee including the Giants. He has an asterisk next to his name.
As for CB, he was never rated as high as the others and nothing has changed.
Until the pads go on my opinion of the players will not change. I really liked the draft but players get picked where they get picked for reasons that we dont know about. Sy is a scout and his opinion matters to me because he does the work on these guys. hes not always right but he has watched a lot of tape on these guys not just the highlight reels. On paper its a good draft. We'll see.
Toney is not the refined route runner that Smith or Waddle are, but he is certainly a dynamic receiver, much like Waddle. Smith is the most well rounded in that group. Waddle has the long speed, but Toney has the electric moves in space. Toney could end up being the best of the bunch in a few years, but he’s clearly not there yet.
Ojulari and Parsons.....hmmm well Ojulari is more of an Edge LBer and will be a pass rusher in our scheme, whereas Parsons is more suited to playing ILB, but who knows what Quinn will have in store for him. Both are good at stopping the run and both could be very good LBers in their respective schemes. Who knows right now. I do have high hopes for Ojulari however. When was the last time the Giants had an Edge defender or OLB with his skills?
Surtain and Horn are both very good in man coverage. Horn is supposedly more grabby and so I’d give the edge to Surtain as the more refined CB, but I do not know too much more about them. I’m just glad nobody in our Division ended up with either, if we couldn’t.
Endowment Effect - ( New Window )
Yes, but Smith is a true X receiver, Waddle more of a slot guy, and Toney an X,Y, or Z guy who can also be a change of pace RB. All three are unique talents. Smith will go on as one of the top receivers in the NFL making mucho dinera some day. Toney and Waddle will be exciting players to watch, but won't get the fame of Smith after a few years.
Comparing apples to oranges IMO. Parsons is more of an inside LB and not particularly focused or disciplined. Ojulari is and outside LB who can play either side and is lazer focused and very disciplined. Parsons is probably more athletic, but Ojulari if healthy will be more productive. Edge to Ojulari
Horn and Surtain are going to be groomed for the outside as potential shut down corners. They will be assigned to cover the X receiver. Robinson is ideal as a nickel CB with the potential to cover on the outside as well. All three are exceptional prospects, but definitely an edge to Horn and Surtain as they will get the job that is most difficult in the NFL compared to all defensive backs.
Same. The real question is how much drop off and we can’t possibly know until they start playing. Coaching, scheme, and determination makes players take different paths all the time.
xpectations for 2021 are probably going to be unrealistic and there will be a backslash with some of the fan base if this years team doesn't have a winning record.
I think they will but unless all of sudden Joe Judge morphs into a completely different football person than we saw last year I think it's only a matter of a short time until the glory days are back.
xpectations for 2021 are probably going to be unrealistic and there will be a backslash with some of the fan base if this years team doesn't have a winning record.
I think they will but unless all of sudden Joe Judge morphs into a completely different football person than we saw last year I think it's only a matter of a short time until the glory days are back.
I love Judge,but I think that Coughlin guy was okay as a HC,don't you?
Let's hope a year from now after we have seen them play in the NFL that this will change in favor of the Giants...
There are multiple factors involved here.
1) Different players develop at different rates. NFL coaches thought Kurt Warner was a camp body in 1999, before injuries forced him to start. Tom Brady was a sixth round draft choice, who was thought at the time had potential to backup eventually. There were plenty of "Can't Miss" players as well who bombed out...too many to count.
2) It takes time to adjust to the level of play at the NFL for most players. Rookies will have ups and downs, for the most part. Some of them have had only partial seasons, or no seasons at all if they opted out. That will affect their development.
3) Coaching. Some players get better coaching than others. That's a huge factor; not all coaches are equal, and some players develop faster with great teaching (something I think is happening here in NY).
4) Different players in different situations. Smith is going to be the primary focus in Philly, but he's only going to be as good as Hurts is. Toney, I think, won't start off as the primary target in NY, so there's less pressure on him.
As a guide, it normally takes about three years to assess a high draft choice's development in the NFL; it may take even longer with covid, and with all the coaching changes that have happened recently. I know everyone wants to know the final results now, but that's unrealistic.
Parsons is better and Parsons offers unlimited potential. He may be a very good inside backer. He may be a very good Edge rusher. No one knows but for sure right now he is at least equal to any other LB/Edge picked.
Robinson may be more versatile. That’s it. He probably isn’t better but he may be just as good as Surtain and Horn.
Parsons is better and Parsons offers unlimited potential. He may be a very good inside backer. He may be a very good Edge rusher. No one knows but for sure right now he is at least equal to any other LB/Edge picked.
Robinson may be more versatile. That’s it. He probably isn’t better but he may be just as good as Surtain and Horn.
Well said. From a pure receiver standpoint Toney is a raw prospect. From a playmaker perspective he has excellent tackle breaking skills, great quickness, and nice speed. If he develops as a route runner and can do more than gadget type plays he could be just as good as the other 2, time will tell.
Care to explain your OP?
But overall I'd say no to all 3 because I think as fans we tend to overrate our players/teams on draft day / and/or when overall we hear nearly all good.
tons of historical basis for this.
Usually Risk grows the further down the draft..
Agreed. Put them in a position to be their best, the talent level will be revealed.
HA! I kill me.
Toney is very talented and I have no problem putting him in the same conversation with Smith and Waddle. If Waddle is healthy, however, and that game-breaking ability he showed at Bama conveys to the pros, he's going to be the biggest problem to deal with...
Big fan of Ojulari, but Parsons is more multiple. I have no problem envisioning him playing inside or outside for Dallas. And being very good at both.
I hope we did the right thing passing on him - due to the personality/locker room concerns - because Parsons is different on a football field.
But until they actually play a full season and in their various schemes, hard to judge now how the pro results will look.
Plain, and simple the Giants got snookered on Smith by Philly, so time will tell, but I don’t think Toney was even in the Giants thoughts prior to the draft. Snookered, and snookered good.
What we know after the draft is who the players are, and how to twist the narrative to fit the above.
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the answer is NO to each one.
Plain, and simple the Giants got snookered on Smith by Philly, so time will tell, but I don’t think Toney was even in the Giants thoughts prior to the draft. Snookered, and snookered good.
No question they got jumped by the Eagles, but rather than bid against them for Smith they brokered another deal, and a pretty good one.
Toney had to be somewhere in the Giants thoughts unless you feel they grabbed him from Daniel Jeremiah's mock draft sheet online.
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In comment 15258431 blueblood said:
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the answer is NO to each one.
Plain, and simple the Giants got snookered on Smith by Philly, so time will tell, but I don’t think Toney was even in the Giants thoughts prior to the draft. Snookered, and snookered good.
No question they got jumped by the Eagles, but rather than bid against them for Smith they brokered another deal, and a pretty good one.
Toney had to be somewhere in the Giants thoughts unless you feel they grabbed him from Daniel Jeremiah's mock draft sheet online.
When Philly made the jump there was Nothing the Giants could do, and even if Smith would have been gone Toney would not have been picked at 11. The #1 for next year that everyone is raving about does not do anything for them this year, and that is all that. Matters right now.
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In comment 15258916 Old Blue said:
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In comment 15258431 blueblood said:
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the answer is NO to each one.
Plain, and simple the Giants got snookered on Smith by Philly, so time will tell, but I don’t think Toney was even in the Giants thoughts prior to the draft. Snookered, and snookered good.
No question they got jumped by the Eagles, but rather than bid against them for Smith they brokered another deal, and a pretty good one.
Toney had to be somewhere in the Giants thoughts unless you feel they grabbed him from Daniel Jeremiah's mock draft sheet online.
When Philly made the jump there was Nothing the Giants could do, and even if Smith would have been gone Toney would not have been picked at 11. The #1 for next year that everyone is raving about does not do anything for them this year, and that is all that. Matters right now.
Those are different points.
Toney was not picked at #11 but he most certainly does something for them right now. The draft doesn't end at pick 11 every year. You suggested Toney was some kind of after-thought when they were on the clock at #20 which sounds just made up but will let you explain.
As to how the Draft works, it isn't just about right now. Toney will help them in 2021 and for his entire rookie contract, as will the players they will draft with the extra picks in 2022.
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In comment 15258925 chick310 said:
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In comment 15258916 Old Blue said:
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In comment 15258431 blueblood said:
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the answer is NO to each one.
Plain, and simple the Giants got snookered on Smith by Philly, so time will tell, but I don’t think Toney was even in the Giants thoughts prior to the draft. Snookered, and snookered good.
No question they got jumped by the Eagles, but rather than bid against them for Smith they brokered another deal, and a pretty good one.
Toney had to be somewhere in the Giants thoughts unless you feel they grabbed him from Daniel Jeremiah's mock draft sheet online.
When Philly made the jump there was Nothing the Giants could do, and even if Smith would have been gone Toney would not have been picked at 11. The #1 for next year that everyone is raving about does not do anything for them this year, and that is all that. Matters right now.
Those are different points.
Toney was not picked at #11 but he most certainly does something for them right now. The draft doesn't end at pick 11 every year. You suggested Toney was some kind of after-thought when they were on the clock at #20 which sounds just made up but will let you explain.
As to how the Draft works, it isn't just about right now. Toney will help them in 2021 and for his entire rookie contract, as will the players they will draft with the extra picks in 2022.
The bottom line is that the Giants wanted Smith, and so didn’t a lot on here. The report came out when Philly snookered the Giants were pissed, and Toney ended up as the consulation prize. I understand how the draft works at doesn’t end at 11, but don’t tell me this was the Giants plan all along, because it wasn’t. They got Snookered, and time will tell how everything works out starting with the first Philly game.
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In comment 15258940 Old Blue said:
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In comment 15258925 chick310 said:
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In comment 15258916 Old Blue said:
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In comment 15258431 blueblood said:
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the answer is NO to each one.
Plain, and simple the Giants got snookered on Smith by Philly, so time will tell, but I don’t think Toney was even in the Giants thoughts prior to the draft. Snookered, and snookered good.
No question they got jumped by the Eagles, but rather than bid against them for Smith they brokered another deal, and a pretty good one.
Toney had to be somewhere in the Giants thoughts unless you feel they grabbed him from Daniel Jeremiah's mock draft sheet online.
When Philly made the jump there was Nothing the Giants could do, and even if Smith would have been gone Toney would not have been picked at 11. The #1 for next year that everyone is raving about does not do anything for them this year, and that is all that. Matters right now.
Those are different points.
Toney was not picked at #11 but he most certainly does something for them right now. The draft doesn't end at pick 11 every year. You suggested Toney was some kind of after-thought when they were on the clock at #20 which sounds just made up but will let you explain.
As to how the Draft works, it isn't just about right now. Toney will help them in 2021 and for his entire rookie contract, as will the players they will draft with the extra picks in 2022.
The bottom line is that the Giants wanted Smith, and so didn’t a lot on here. The report came out when Philly snookered the Giants were pissed, and Toney ended up as the consulation prize. I understand how the draft works at doesn’t end at 11, but don’t tell me this was the Giants plan all along, because it wasn’t. They got Snookered, and time will tell how everything works out starting with the first Philly game.
They should have known he'd be picked early, and he was still on the board when the Giants traded down.
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the answer is NO to each one.
Plain, and simple the Giants got snookered on Smith by Philly, so time will tell, but I don’t think Toney was even in the Giants thoughts prior to the draft. Snookered, and snookered good.
As usual, you are wrong and just a bitter person. The only thing you got right was the Philly traded ahead of the Giants.
DG, JJ and Petitt already said they went through all these scenarios and had been contacted by the Bears earlier in the week (Twice in fact). Clearly the Giants had considered Smith being taken ahead of them (when or how it happened is unimportant).
They clearly had most of a deal worked out with the Bears ahead of time so they clearly knew there was a good possibility for him to be drafted ahead of them. You do not come up with a trade like that in 5 minutes - they announced the deal with over 4 minutes remaining on the clock.
So, JJ said they gamed all scenarios at about 6pm on day 1. They already had the Bears offer in place prior to the draft. They knew who they would pick in each case. They were comfortable with what would likely be available at #20 and Toney obviously was one of those players. It was reported that the Vikes wanted to trade, also.
The Giants were not snookered(implying the Eagles pulled one over on them by tricking them). They knew there were possibilities players they wanted at 11 would not be there. The Giants may have snookered the league by trading with the Bears and getting an extra #1 and #4 and still getting a player they wanted.
To suggest they didn’t plan on picking Toney means they didn’t even bother ranking the WRs outside of the top 3. Absolutely preposterous take to have.
You are posting with an agenda and everything that happened debunks your agenda. Posting it over and over doesn’t change that.
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In comment 15258431 blueblood said:
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the answer is NO to each one.
As usual, you are wrong and just a bitter person. The only thing you got right was the Philly traded ahead of the Giants.
DG, JJ and Petitt already said they went through all these scenarios and had been contacted by the Bears earlier in the week (Twice in fact). Clearly the Giants had considered Smith being taken ahead of them (when or how it happened is unimportant).
They clearly had most of a deal worked out with the Bears ahead of time so they clearly knew there was a good possibility for him to be drafted ahead of them. You do not come up with a trade like that in 5 minutes - they announced the deal with over 4 minutes remaining on the clock.
So, JJ said they gamed all scenarios at about 6pm on day 1. They already had the Bears offer in place prior to the draft. They knew who they would pick in each case. They were comfortable with what would likely be available at #20 and Toney obviously was one of those players. It was reported that the Vikes wanted to trade, also.
The Giants were not snookered(implying the Eagles pulled one over on them by tricking them). They knew there were possibilities players they wanted at 11 would not be there. The Giants may have snookered the league by trading with the Bears and getting an extra #1 and #4 and still getting a player they wanted.
That Vikes tidbit is interesting, where did you hear that? Wondering what the offer was? If it was competitive, be interesting how AVT vs Toney shakes down (I think he’s be the assumed pick there at 14)
The bottom line is that the Giants wanted Smith, and so didn’t a lot on here. The report came out when Philly snookered the Giants were pissed, and Toney ended up as the consulation prize. I understand how the draft works at doesn’t end at 11, but don’t tell me this was the Giants plan all along, because it wasn’t. They got Snookered, and time will tell how everything works out starting with the first Philly game.
Per a report on CBS Sports, the Giants were apparently livid at Philly jumping over them. And getting Smith was the top priority.
But they adjusted, traded down, and got a very good player in Toney.
Now, I'm coming at this from the perspective that I didn't like Smith as a high pick due to his body type, so I'm glad we didn't select him...;)
That Vikes tidbit is interesting, where did you hear that? Wondering what the offer was? If it was competitive, be interesting how AVT vs Toney shakes down (I think he’s be the assumed pick there at 14)
I do not remember where it came from. May have been one of the other sites that people quote on BBI. May have been in the papers. I saw it, it did not surprise me since there were hints that other teams looking for a QB may have talked to the Giants about moving up. I am certain the Vikes were mentioned after the draft was over. Report did not specify the offer.
The bottom line is that the Giants wanted Smith, and so didn’t a lot on here. The report came out when Philly snookered the Giants were pissed, and Toney ended up as the consulation prize. I understand how the draft works at doesn’t end at 11, but don’t tell me this was the Giants plan all along, because it wasn’t. They got Snookered, and time will tell how everything works out starting with the first Philly game.
Yet another pivot, nobody suggested this was the Giants plan all along, nor that they didn't want Smith at #11. However, he wasn't available at #11 so they had to adjust. Or are you now recommending they should have traded up in this series of weak observations?
Most importantly, you originally said above Toney wasn't even a thought for them and I asked why that was if in fact they picked him 9 slots later. You can answer or you can ignore, but the latter will just suggest to me you wish you didn't go down this path with such a post.
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The bottom line is that the Giants wanted Smith, and so didn’t a lot on here. The report came out when Philly snookered the Giants were pissed, and Toney ended up as the consulation prize. I understand how the draft works at doesn’t end at 11, but don’t tell me this was the Giants plan all along, because it wasn’t. They got Snookered, and time will tell how everything works out starting with the first Philly game.
Yet another pivot, nobody suggested this was the Giants plan all along, nor that they didn't want Smith at #11. However, he wasn't available at #11 so they had to adjust. Or are you now recommending they should have traded up in this series of weak observations?
Most importantly, you originally said above Toney wasn't even a thought for them and I asked why that was if in fact they picked him 9 slots later. You can answer or you can ignore, but the latter will just suggest to me you wish you didn't go down this path with such a post.
I wasn’t for any WR in round 1, and have been all about fixing the O line since FA, and I still say the O line needs fixing, so I only would have traded up for Sewell.
I never hard Toney’s name mentioned once in all the mock drafts by all the experts around the league, or any BBI with all their mocks. Of course the thinking of who was going at 11, and not 20, but Philly snookered the Giants, and jumped ahead pissing off the Giants brain trust according to reports.
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In comment 15258944 Old Blue said:
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The bottom line is that the Giants wanted Smith, and so didn’t a lot on here. The report came out when Philly snookered the Giants were pissed, and Toney ended up as the consulation prize. I understand how the draft works at doesn’t end at 11, but don’t tell me this was the Giants plan all along, because it wasn’t. They got Snookered, and time will tell how everything works out starting with the first Philly game.
Yet another pivot, nobody suggested this was the Giants plan all along, nor that they didn't want Smith at #11. However, he wasn't available at #11 so they had to adjust. Or are you now recommending they should have traded up in this series of weak observations?
Most importantly, you originally said above Toney wasn't even a thought for them and I asked why that was if in fact they picked him 9 slots later. You can answer or you can ignore, but the latter will just suggest to me you wish you didn't go down this path with such a post.
I wasn’t for any WR in round 1, and have been all about fixing the O line since FA, and I still say the O line needs fixing, so I only would have traded up for Sewell.
I never hard Toney’s name mentioned once in all the mock drafts by all the experts around the league, or any BBI with all their mocks. Of course the thinking of who was going at 11, and not 20, but Philly snookered the Giants, and jumped ahead pissing off the Giants brain trust according to reports.
I got the snookered view, now several times. No need to repeat unless you have a typing disorder.
So now the story has changed from Toney wasn't even a thought for the Giants to now you never heard his name mentioned by all the experts/mocks as a possibility at #20. And now its also you never wanted a WR for the Giants anyway.
How odd that every expert didn't create every scenario possibility of a trade down and who the Giants would/should pick at their new slot. Or that you don't have access to their tiered draft board that showed Toney was one of several players the Giants may have been considering at #20 or so.
Do you want to continue this nonsense or have you had enough? If you keep going at least it gives you a chance to say they were snookered again.
I wasn’t for any WR in round 1, and have been all about fixing the O line since FA, and I still say the O line needs fixing, so I only would have traded up for Sewell.
I never hard Toney’s name mentioned once in all the mock drafts by all the experts around the league, or any BBI with all their mocks. Of course the thinking of who was going at 11, and not 20, but Philly snookered the Giants, and jumped ahead pissing off the Giants brain trust according to reports.
So what? The Giants may have been pissed, but they didn't panic. On the contrary, they turned a negative into a positive, setting themselves up nicely in the 2022 draft, and still getting another playmaker for their offense.
So, you never heard Toney's name mentioned at all. Again, so what? No one should be privy to the Giants' board except those who actually make the picks. Sure, it was no secret they liked Smith. Who wouldn't? But you can't always get what you want, and it's not liked they reached for Toney. He went just about where most pundits predicted he'd go. And if they were still butthurt about losing Smith, the picks they got for next year's draft should no doubt help ease that pain.
As for the O-Line, they invested heavily in it in last year's draft, and reports are they feel better about it going forward than most fans. So be it. Clearly, in this draft they were focused on strengthening their pass-rush and reinforcing their secondary. That part of their plan worked out nicely for them.