Shortly after Joe Judge was hired, Matt in SGS speculated about Kevin Abrams being general manager in waiting, it was well thought out which I linked below. Based on how the Giants handled the draft last week, it is a good time to revisit this. I believe the Dave Gettleman hot seat talk is overblown and I don’t think the Giants view it that way. I was very encouraged with how the draft was handled, there was a clear long term approach, something you wouldn’t expect for a general manager on the hot seat. It was a much different approach than 2016 where caution was thrown to the wind in order to win short term.
I see similarities with the end of the Accorsi era. That team had super bowl bones, I wouldn’t dare compare this team to the 2005/2006 teams, but I believe the front office transition will be handled similarly. It would appear, there is strong cohesion between Judge, Gettleman, Abrams & Pettit. I always felt the cohesion at the end of the Coughlin/Reese era was poor, it seems there was some resentment in the building from both areas.
I don’t know how much longer Gettleman will be general manager, but I do feel there are three strong candidates which will be next in line:
Kevin Abrams: more visibility in the media recently. He joined the Giants in 1999 as a salary cap analyst. He handles contract negotiations and hammered out the trade details with the Bears. Currently the assistant general manager - most likely choice to take over imo.
Chris Pettit: came up through the organization as a scout. He was named the Director of College Scouting in 2018. He also has been more visible in the media. Similar to Jerry Reese in how he came up through the organization.
Kyle O’Brien: this is the outside hire that so many fans have wanted to see. He represents some new blood in the front office, and spent a lot of time in the Patriots organization. While he didn’t have overlap with Judge, he should be familiar with the program and process he is trying to build. O’Brien is a wildcard imo.
If I had to guess, the next general manager will be one of the above names with Abrams being the favorite. I’d assume they will all be interviewed when the time comes. I don’t know when it will be, but I would expect there is already discussion in the building regarding the transition.
If Judge has a strong year and continues to show signs of promise, the team should have a better record. I’d want whoever the next general manager to be to have a strong collaborative relationship with Judge.
Lastly, this isn’t meant to be a bash Gettleman thread. I’m just thinking about the front office long term, and Gettleman would figure to be near the end of his career considering his age. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
To summarize, I think Abrams is the favorite, but I wouldn’t rule out Pettit or O’Brien.
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Whomever ends up being the GM, my view is that that office is there to support the guy who should be the de facto head of football operations: Judge. Judge is the talent in the building. He's the guy we want as the face and brains of the football operation. I want Judge to have tiebreaking say on all critical decisions, and for the GM to be there to support the implementation of Judge's vision and principles.
Whomever ends up being the GM, my view is that that office is there to support the guy who should be the de facto head of football operations: Judge. Judge is the talent in the building. He's the guy we want as the face and brains of the football operation. I want Judge to have tiebreaking say on all critical decisions, and for the GM to be there to support the implementation of Judge's vision and principles.
I agree with this. Also, this should not be specific to the Giants - this is what the NFL is about. The general manager should support the head coach in his vision for the team. It’s why I’m encouraged with Judge, he has such a strong personality and appears to know exactly what he’s looking for in a player.
I remember Reese was at the Darnold/Rosen game in 2018. I wonder how he would have approached the 2018 draft. Ultimately, Marc Ross was the undoing of Reese, and I feel Reese gets a raw deal here.
And I would agree with Mr. Coughlin. And you. lol
Whomever ends up being the GM, my view is that that office is there to support the guy who should be the de facto head of football operations: Judge. Judge is the talent in the building. He's the guy we want as the face and brains of the football operation. I want Judge to have tiebreaking say on all critical decisions, and for the GM to be there to support the implementation of Judge's vision and principles.
I like this. Cheers.
I expect that Gettleman is also well prepared and has earned the respect of Judge.
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was always bad. A lot of the draft picks seemed to me barely played and were never developed which led to very few second contracts. I also thought he was really pissed at Reese at the end and felt the wrong man was fired.
Coughlin ran roughshod over Reese. That's how you wind up with picks like Ereck Flowers (who had Coughlin's fingerprints all over him). If Coughlin was unhappy with Reese we would've heard about it the way we heard about it when Ballard was claimed off waiver wire by Belichick. Coughlin wasn't one to keep his mouth shut when he wasn't happy. The wrong man wasn't fired.
Disagree. Reese continued to draft poorly after Reese left, and the Jerrel Jernigan comments from Mara were seemingly planted by Reese / Ross. If Coughlin ran roughshod over Reese, they never would have drafted Odell over Aaron Donald.
As a rookie GM, Reese inherited a head coach who was a former GM that had built a franchise (the Jaguars) from the ground up and on top of that, was friend of the Mara family. Do you really think John Mara valued Reese's opinion over Coughlin's? Do you see Reese winning an argument with Coughlin? Coughlin is a bully, Reese didn't stand a chance.
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If Coughlin ran roughshod over Reese, they never would have drafted Odell over Aaron Donald.
And you know that how? Take a look at the DTs that Coughlin has drafted when in charge. They were not of the Aaron Donald variety. They were of the Marcus Stroud, John Henderson variety.
As a rookie GM, Reese inherited a head coach who was a former GM that had built a franchise (the Jaguars) from the ground up and on top of that, was friend of the Mara family. Do you really think John Mara valued Reese's opinion over Coughlin's? Do you see Reese winning an argument with Coughlin? Coughlin is a bully, Reese didn't stand a chance.
Milton, after Coughlin was let go Reese spent big in free agency on Snacks, Vernon, and Janoris Jenkins. Coughlin was reportedly very annoyed at those moves and asked why Reese didn't address the defense like that when he was around. There was definitely a rift between Coughlin and Reese but Reese definitely had final say over personnel decisions.
Devious Dave with the double smoke screen.
Ross is largely to blame for the state of the franchise back then. The Giants basically never hit on any picks in the 3rd-7th round range when Ross was here.
I think Reese's early success with the 2007 draft made him think he was "smarter than the room". He made some good post 2007 FA and draft moves, which became fewer and further between as the years went on.
Reese and Ross not being in a front office job since they were let go speaks volumes.
Reese did a lot of good things here.
I think Reese's early success with the 2007 draft made him think he was "smarter than the room". He made some good post 2007 FA and draft moves, which became fewer and further between as the years went on.
Reese and Ross not being in a front office job since they were let go speaks volumes.
I think this is an excellent summation. Coughlin clearly made bad game management decisions based on the fact that there was no talent on defense. Both should have went to start things over fresh.
Whomever ends up being the GM, my view is that that office is there to support the guy who should be the de facto head of football operations: Judge. Judge is the talent in the building. He's the guy we want as the face and brains of the football operation. I want Judge to have tiebreaking say on all critical decisions, and for the GM to be there to support the implementation of Judge's vision and principles.
Good post Terps.
Round 1, Pick 32: David Wilson RB.
Round 2, Pick 63: Rueben Randle, WR.
Round 3, Pick 94: Jayron Hosley, CB.
Round 4, Pick 127: Adrien Robinson, TE.
Round 4, Pick 131: Brandon Mosley, OT.
Round 6, Pick 201: Matt McCants, OT.
Round 7, Pick 239: Markus Kuhn, DT
2012 Draft. This just after your QB took a band aid OL to win a SB after having taking 20 plus hits in the NFC championship game. TC who the very first thing he said taking the Giants job was the importance of winning the line of scrimmage. That TC sure must have been pounding the table as must haves with the first 4 picks. Reese rode the coat tails of Ernie and TC but he was a very good scout. I think TC was heavily involved but there was a competing agenda with Reese/Ross who wanted to build more with athletes on the perimeter.
plax, smith, nicks, manningham, cruz. all these guys should have played longer than they did due to injuries (plax wasn't injury related)
phillips was on his way to being a perennial all-pro. hurt. chad jones gets in the car accident (3rd round pick).
all of these things made them re-investing in the same positions over and over again with high draft capital
at the same time his drafts were really bad after ross came aboard. like really, really bad
i don't think reese got a raw deal at all. i think the organization was very fair to him
Round 1, Pick 32: David Wilson RB.
Round 2, Pick 63: Rueben Randle, WR.
Round 3, Pick 94: Jayron Hosley, CB.
Round 4, Pick 127: Adrien Robinson, TE.
Round 4, Pick 131: Brandon Mosley, OT.
Round 6, Pick 201: Matt McCants, OT.
Round 7, Pick 239: Markus Kuhn, DT
2012 Draft. This just after your QB took a band aid OL to win a SB after having taking 20 plus hits in the NFC championship game. TC who the very first thing he said taking the Giants job was the importance of winning the line of scrimmage. That TC sure must have been pounding the table as must haves with the first 4 picks. Reese rode the coat tails of Ernie and TC but he was a very good scout. I think TC was heavily involved but there was a competing agenda with Reese/Ross who wanted to build more with athletes on the perimeter.
but we got the JPP of tight ends in that draft!
But the OP forgot about Chris Mara the senior vp of player personnel and Susan Mara's son Tim McDonnell the assistant director of player personnel. Where do they fit in?
Where Judge deserves a helluva lot of credit is the coaching staff he has put together. This is where the Giants philosophy favors him because it favors letting head coaches put together their own staffs and Judge looks to have done a much better job than Shurmur did.
So I felt more upbeat about both, but strongly prefer an outsider. (Actually, I find the GM position so arcane and superfluous that I wish it was just scrapped all together.)
But I'll settle for a transition to O'Brien. It's time to grow with new blood and get out of this Amish way of thinking about football...
Bring Judge ideas/recommendations and let him make final call on ALL personnel decisions. Then let the Cap specialist figure out the finances and provide short and long term guidance on those consequences.
But the OP forgot about Chris Mara the senior vp of player personnel and Susan Mara's son Tim McDonnell the assistant director of player personnel. Where do they fit in?
I don’t see either becoming GM.
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was always bad. A lot of the draft picks seemed to me barely played and were never developed which led to very few second contracts. I also thought he was really pissed at Reese at the end and felt the wrong man was fired.
Coughlin ran roughshod over Reese. That's how you wind up with picks like Ereck Flowers (who had Coughlin's fingerprints all over him). If Coughlin was unhappy with Reese we would've heard about it the way we heard about it when Ballard was claimed off waiver wire by Belichick. Coughlin wasn't one to keep his mouth shut when he wasn't happy. The wrong man wasn't fired.
Ran roughshod??....whatever.
They’ll be involved. John Mara is very aware of optics though, I see no way he would ever give a GM job to Chris or Tim McDonnell, that would be viewed as a disaster among fans. Like any family business (see Dallas & Pittsburgh), there is going to be family members in the front office. I don’t see that changing.
Exactly. It would never happen. He’s a scout with a cushy title.
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was always bad. A lot of the draft picks seemed to me barely played and were never developed which led to very few second contracts. I also thought he was really pissed at Reese at the end and felt the wrong man was fired.
Coughlin ran roughshod over Reese. That's how you wind up with picks like Ereck Flowers (who had Coughlin's fingerprints all over him). If Coughlin was unhappy with Reese we would've heard about it the way we heard about it when Ballard was claimed off waiver wire by Belichick. Coughlin wasn't one to keep his mouth shut when he wasn't happy. The wrong man wasn't fired.
I don't know about "ran roughshod", but re: Ereck Flowers, IIRC Reese's hot take right after the pick was make was "I think he'll make a good guard", before he later toed the company line. And remember, Coughlin rushed to sign Flowers in Jacksonville after the Giants finally got rid of him.
Media sessions portraying some of that while actions are really spelling it out.
Total a$$hole thing to say.
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next to Gettleman, .....
Total a$$hole thing to say.
No, it's just accurate.
Snobbery is not a good look.
Probably, but I wouldn’t rule out Pettit. Came up as a scout and discovered Victor Cruz.
I agree with this completely.
Look, Gettleman hasn’t been great the last few years, but he’s never been as bad as his detractors claim he has.
I’ve said many times before, the worst thing he’s done here was to hire Pat Shurmur. That move alone cost him 2 years on the timeline of this rebuild. Whoever hired Joe Judge, whether it was him or Mara, definitely got it right. But even before we knew that, I think Mara put all his eggs in Judge’s basket and said, basically, Judge is not getting fired in 1 or 2 years. Mara fully committed to him and I believe turned the franchise over to him. It’s very un-Mara-like but I think it’s true and I think he deserves a lot of credit for having the courage to do it. Starting with last year’s draft, which Judge’s fingerprints were all over, it seems obvious Judge is driving the bus.
This is not to disparage Gettleman or say he does nothing. I think Gettleman is a valuable “consigliere” of sorts for Judge. It’s also never talked about that the man has battled and beaten cancer while he’s served as GM here. Not bad considering. Ultimately though, I think Judge and Gettleman with Abrams and co. have been killing it the last 2 offseasons. Whatever the arrangement, it’s working. Win-win for everyone.
I don't know about "ran roughshod", but re: Ereck Flowers, IIRC Reese's hot take right after the pick was make was "I think he'll make a good guard", before he later toed the company line. And remember, Coughlin rushed to sign Flowers in Jacksonville after the Giants finally got rid of him.
He decided to sign Flowers out of desperation. The Jags offensive line was absolutely decimated by injury. They lost their top four LT’s and brought in Flowers due to need not because Coughlin was high on him. Pat Flaherty was the OL coach in Jacksonville so they brought in Flowers because of his familiarity with the staff not because they loved his performance.
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was always bad. A lot of the draft picks seemed to me barely played and were never developed which led to very few second contracts. I also thought he was really pissed at Reese at the end and felt the wrong man was fired.
Coughlin ran roughshod over Reese. That's how you wind up with picks like Ereck Flowers (who had Coughlin's fingerprints all over him). If Coughlin was unhappy with Reese we would've heard about it the way we heard about it when Ballard was claimed off waiver wire by Belichick. Coughlin wasn't one to keep his mouth shut when he wasn't happy. The wrong man wasn't fired.
Really? How did they end up Clint Sintim? Or David Wilson? Jarrel Jernigan? Non of whom fit TCs style or the coaching staff's style? Eli Apple?
I expect that Gettleman is also well prepared and has earned the respect of Judge.
There’s a lot of good stuff in this thread. Even he’s post, if
You ignore the usual gratuitous shot, is good.
But the above post is probably the most accurate and insightful assessment of the situation
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The GM has to be the deciding voice in trades, draft, and FA. That said, a good GM will NEVER force someone on his coach. The amount of power a coach has comes with how well prepared they are with respect to prospect evaluation and needs analysis. I suspect Judge is very prepared and as a result Gettleman listens carefully to what he has to say.
I expect that Gettleman is also well prepared and has earned the respect of Judge.
There’s a lot of good stuff in this thread. Even he’s post, if
You ignore the usual gratuitous shot, is good.
But the above post is probably the most accurate and insightful assessment of the situation