Nice article on Dave Gettleman

posted.

just like I think Joe Judge is the reason after never having moved down ever in a DG draft as GM it happened twice in the first two rounds this year.

Nothing would make me happier from a football standpoint than Dave Gettleman getting the last laugh on people like me who have hammered everything he's done these past three years.

Regardless of if it's because John Mara finally hired the right head coach or not if the Giants become winners in the next year or two Dave can take all the victory laps and last laughs he wants.

you cray cray?

Have to admit it got pretty tiring having to read people say over and over that the Giants won't trade down bc "DG never trades down".

And they acted like I'm stupid when I said we might trade down bc: the past is irrelevant, the sample size of DG's drafts is small and JJ (with his BB influence) now has input. Who's stupid now?! ha ha! I feel better now, thanks.

collaboration is going to be a very productive one.

In comment 15260011 Dr. D said:

Quote:

you cray cray? Have to admit it got pretty tiring having to read people say over and over that the Giants won't trade down bc "DG never trades down". And they acted like I'm stupid when I said we might trade down bc: the past is irrelevant, the sample size of DG's drafts is small and JJ (with his BB influence) now has input. Who's stupid now?! ha ha! I feel better now, thanks.

FMiC. clearly explained who DG was in Carolina and why he left. He’s quite clued in to the Panthers, so though I didn’t want DG here when he was hired, I kept harkening back to FMiC’s posts on the matter. It motivated me to be patient. Might be paying off

time, I thought being old made one patient!!

I keed:)

In comment 15260025 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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time, I thought being old made one patient!! I keed:)

Murdering bastid!

whether you agree with his moves or not is that he has integrity. I believe every move he does is what is best for the NY Football Giants. Most GM's do what is best for them (and that a lot of the time corresponds with what is best for the football team but not always. Here is a guy who is constantly reminded about his job security by the media, has the media bait the owner into saying that this year is a must playoff year, but the GM is still accumulating draft picks for next year and beyond. That is commendable. I may go hot and cold on him, but I trust that he will do what is right for our football team (even if it does not, in the end, work out).

In comment 15260029 Essex said:

Quote:

whether you agree with his moves or not is that he has integrity. I believe every move he does is what is best for the NY Football Giants. Most GM's do what is best for them (and that a lot of the time corresponds with what is best for the football team but not always. Here is a guy who is constantly reminded about his job security by the media, has the media bait the owner into saying that this year is a must playoff year, but the GM is still accumulating draft picks for next year and beyond. That is commendable. I may go hot and cold on him, but I trust that he will do what is right for our football team (even if it does not, in the end, work out).

good post Essex. I agree. DG does what he thinks to be in the best interest of the Franchise. No personal agenda.

In comment 15260029 Essex said:

Quote:

whether you agree with his moves or not is that he has integrity. I believe every move he does is what is best for the NY Football Giants. Most GM's do what is best for them (and that a lot of the time corresponds with what is best for the football team but not always. Here is a guy who is constantly reminded about his job security by the media, has the media bait the owner into saying that this year is a must playoff year, but the GM is still accumulating draft picks for next year and beyond. That is commendable. I may go hot and cold on him, but I trust that he will do what is right for our football team (even if it does not, in the end, work out).

Agreed.

...and good posts!

In comment 15260029 Essex said:

Quote:

whether you agree with his moves or not is that he has integrity. I believe every move he does is what is best for the NY Football Giants. Most GM's do what is best for them (and that a lot of the time corresponds with what is best for the football team but not always. Here is a guy who is constantly reminded about his job security by the media, has the media bait the owner into saying that this year is a must playoff year, but the GM is still accumulating draft picks for next year and beyond. That is commendable. I may go hot and cold on him, but I trust that he will do what is right for our football team (even if it does not, in the end, work out).

He may make some bad decisions, but I get the sense that he truly does LOVE this organization with every fiber in his body, and that he will always do what is best for the team, in his opinion, above all else.

He always said the greatest gift he could give this org was a franchise QB and I truly do believe he thinks Jones is the answer. I hope he is right, time will tell, but he seems to be a genuine, high integrity guy.

In comment 15260044 Bergen346 said:

Quote:

In comment 15260029 Essex said: Quote: whether you agree with his moves or not is that he has integrity. I believe every move he does is what is best for the NY Football Giants. Most GM's do what is best for them (and that a lot of the time corresponds with what is best for the football team but not always. Here is a guy who is constantly reminded about his job security by the media, has the media bait the owner into saying that this year is a must playoff year, but the GM is still accumulating draft picks for next year and beyond. That is commendable. I may go hot and cold on him, but I trust that he will do what is right for our football team (even if it does not, in the end, work out). He may make some bad decisions, but I get the sense that he truly does LOVE this organization with every fiber in his body, and that he will always do what is best for the team, in his opinion, above all else. He always said the greatest gift he could give this org was a franchise QB and I truly do believe he thinks Jones is the answer. I hope he is right, time will tell, but he seems to be a genuine, high integrity guy.

And if he is not right about Jones he now has the draft capital to potentially address that error next year. And if it goes that way (which I hope it doesn’t) hopefully he gets it right before he retires.

like fans think. The Giants appear to like Judge, so bringing in an outside GM doesn’t make sense. The outside hire was already made, it was Kyle O’Brien (Pats background).

I think the transition will be to either Abrams, Pettit or O’Brien. So, I’m not surprised Gettleman is taking a long term view.

2 s1s and a two ( the two ones would be top 15 if jones sucks)
Would probably get u the top qb on the board
That being said, I think jones will show enough that they pick up 5th yr option and he is starting in yr 4
I know what team loves about jones. I just hope they aren’t blind spots they are ignoring because of that love
JJ doesn’t seems cut from that cloth

In comment 15260072 Payasdaddy said:

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2 s1s and a two ( the two ones would be top 15 if jones sucks) Would probably get u the top qb on the board That being said, I think jones will show enough that they pick up 5th yr option and he is starting in yr 4 I know what team loves about jones. I just hope they aren’t blind spots they are ignoring because of that love JJ doesn’t seems cut from that cloth

I couldn’t agree more about the investment in/love of Jones potentially blinding DG, but as you said I have full faith that JJ will hold him accountable and make sure that doesn’t happen - that is if Jones disappoints this season, which I hope and don’t think will be the case.

Either way they are pretty well hedged. Thank you Philadelphia.

on what's going on lately with personnel & roster building decisions.

However, it does feel as if there were some subtle changes going on last season with player additions. And some not-so-subtle ones occurring now this offseason with certain transactions. Can reasonably conclude Judge is making a difference, and this year he has begun to stretch out within the organization even more. Albeit under the umbrella of a collaborative process with a front office that supports now maybe more than it decides.

In comment 15260009 arniefez said:

Quote:

just like I think Joe Judge is the reason after never having moved down ever in a DG draft as GM it happened twice in the first two rounds this year. Nothing would make me happier from a football standpoint than Dave Gettleman getting the last laugh on people like me who have hammered everything he's done these past three years. Regardless of if it's because John Mara finally hired the right head coach or not if the Giants become winners in the next year or two Dave can take all the victory laps and last laughs he wants.

The article (correctly) made the point that the Patriots often trade down. Aside from Gettleman's insistence that he's been willing to trade down before, it may be a difference in how Judge thinks about drafting. That's not to diminish Gettleman's role in this. The previous coach may not have been as comfortable with trading down. Judge clearly is.

In comment 15260011 Dr. D said:

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the sample size of DG's drafts is small

I don't think 54 opportunities is a small sample.

and believe gettleman has always worked with the head coaches. Look at the make up of the different teams under gettleman.

Rivera - defensive minded and the emphasis on defensive line in Carolina is the same with Rivera in Washington.

Shurmur - most of the players brought in under shurmur had ties to shurmur and even moreso bettcher and the cardinals. Shurmur had a lot of say in drafting Daniel Jones and why wouldn't you listen to shurmur when it comes to quarterbacks.

Joe judge - tough, smart, versatile players. A lot of players drafted with SEC ties.

This is not a knock on gettleman at all. This is what makes him a good GM. Give the coaches the players they need to build the team they want. Working collaboratively.

In comment 15260082 Bergen346 said:

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Either way they are pretty well hedged. Thank you Philadelphia.

That's a very good point. We have hedged against Jones going the wrong way. I have the feeling this strategy was very likely hatched by Judge/O'Brien, but DG gets credit because he is still the GM.

Ironically, however, Philly is also well hedged. They have two first rounders and two second rounders in 2022. And one of the second rounders can become a first if Wentz play 75% of the snaps in '21.

In comment 15260127 TrueBlue56 said:

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and believe gettleman has always worked with the head coaches. Look at the make up of the different teams under gettleman. Rivera - defensive minded and the emphasis on defensive line in Carolina is the same with Rivera in Washington. Shurmur - most of the players brought in under shurmur had ties to shurmur and even moreso bettcher and the cardinals. Shurmur had a lot of say in drafting Daniel Jones and why wouldn't you listen to shurmur when it comes to quarterbacks. Joe judge - tough, smart, versatile players. A lot of players drafted with SEC ties. This is not a knock on gettleman at all. This is what makes him a good GM. Give the coaches the players they need to build the team they want. Working collaboratively.

Perfectly stated my man

In comment 15260127 TrueBlue56 said:

Quote:

and believe gettleman has always worked with the head coaches. Look at the make up of the different teams under gettleman. Rivera - defensive minded and the emphasis on defensive line in Carolina is the same with Rivera in Washington. Shurmur - most of the players brought in under shurmur had ties to shurmur and even moreso bettcher and the cardinals. Shurmur had a lot of say in drafting Daniel Jones and why wouldn't you listen to shurmur when it comes to quarterbacks. Joe judge - tough, smart, versatile players. A lot of players drafted with SEC ties. This is not a knock on gettleman at all. This is what makes him a good GM. Give the coaches the players they need to build the team they want. Working collaboratively.

So he’s just a Yes man?

:-)

After today's reading I am getting optimistic about BBI!
Maybe the population on here is more intelligent than
moronic.
This plus my optimism about the Giants over the next few years is going to make a pleasant last couple of years.

...

In comment 15260009 arniefez said:

Quote:

Nothing would make me happier from a football standpoint than Dave Gettleman getting the last laugh on people like me who have hammered everything he's done these past three years.

These are typical petty posts from some of you.

Who the hell cares who has last laugh as long as the Giants win?

In comment 15260024 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 15260011 Dr. D said: Quote: you cray cray? Have to admit it got pretty tiring having to read people say over and over that the Giants won't trade down bc "DG never trades down". And they acted like I'm stupid when I said we might trade down bc: the past is irrelevant, the sample size of DG's drafts is small and JJ (with his BB influence) now has input. Who's stupid now?! ha ha! I feel better now, thanks. FMiC. clearly explained who DG was in Carolina and why he left. He’s quite clued in to the Panthers, so though I didn’t want DG here when he was hired, I kept harkening back to FMiC’s posts on the matter. It motivated me to be patient. Might be paying off

You realize the Giants have sucked since he came aboard, right?

He hasn't accomplished shit yet, you realize that, right?

Unless you're proud of a 6-10 team?

If you are so confident that they have turned the corner, can you tell us all how much money you put down on the Giants to go over 7 wins?

Do you ignore the shitty roster we had when he came aboard? You just dismiss the roster overhaul that paid dividends last year. He is exactly on track in this rebuild. Year 3 of the QB is now. I still love how fans bitch about DG like he’s ruining the franchise it’s hysterical and shows me the average fan doesn’t know what a rebuild means.

In comment 15260303 Tuckrule said:

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Do you ignore the shitty roster we had when he came aboard? You just dismiss the roster overhaul that paid dividends last year. He is exactly on track in this rebuild. Year 3 of the QB is now. I still love how fans bitch about DG like he’s ruining the franchise it’s hysterical and shows me the average fan doesn’t know what a rebuild means.

well put.

In comment 15260303 Tuckrule said:

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Do you ignore the shitty roster we had when he came aboard? You just dismiss the roster overhaul that paid dividends last year. He is exactly on track in this rebuild. Year 3 of the QB is now. I still love how fans bitch about DG like he’s ruining the franchise it’s hysterical and shows me the average fan doesn’t know what a rebuild means.

For all the average fans out there on pins and needles...what does a rebuild mean?

In comment 15260303 Tuckrule said:

Quote:

Do you ignore the shitty roster we had when he came aboard? You just dismiss the roster overhaul that paid dividends last year. He is exactly on track in this rebuild. Year 3 of the QB is now. I still love how fans bitch about DG like he’s ruining the franchise it’s hysterical and shows me the average fan doesn’t know what a rebuild means.

After 3 years we're 6-10 and we're in a conference that was historically bad.

I'm sickened how fans like yourself are so proud of 6-10.

When are you going to stop telling us that that the team is a winner instead of showing me?

If you think they are on the right track, then how much are you gambling on the Giants to get over 7 wins?

The team was 6-10 in an awful awful conference.

...?

Cmon' Tuckrule, you have to show us!!!

In comment 15260114 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 15260011 Dr. D said: Quote: the sample size of DG's drafts is small I don't think 54 opportunities is a small sample.

I figured someone would say that. Here's my thinking: i was mainly referring to the first round and I don’t think there is a lot of trading down in general (outside NE), after the 2nd rd.

So, he had 8 first rds prior to '21. Is it so hard to believe that it didn't make sense (in the collective minds of DG, his coaches and staff) to trade down for some of those 8? And maybe some year(s), it could've made sense, but there was no willing trade partner, at least not one willing to give a fair deal.

DG obviously works with his coaches, so is it possible Riviera in Carolina didn't want to trade down bc there were players he wanted that might not be available after a trade down?

And I said that JJ could make a difference.

In comment 15260303 Tuckrule said:

Quote:

Do you ignore the shitty roster we had when he came aboard? You just dismiss the roster overhaul that paid dividends last year. He is exactly on track in this rebuild. Year 3 of the QB is now. I still love how fans bitch about DG like he’s ruining the franchise it’s hysterical and shows me the average fan doesn’t know what a rebuild means.

Reminder - we’ve had three consecutive double digit loss seasons.

So until we actually have a winning record, Jones plays like the 6th pick in the draft, and we make the playoffs there are no dividends that have been paid.

The full on rebuild begins when you draft your future QB. DG was handed arguably the worst roster in the nfl including albatross contracts which he got out from under with great trades. At the time he was laughed at. Years later, brilliant trades that put this franchise in a great position with cap flexibility and an influx of young talent.

This team will win over 7 games. If you can’t see the progress made year after year then I’m not sure what your watching. We won 6 games with a terrible offense. I mean horrendous offense. We added Golladay, Toney, Rudolph and we’re getting a healthy Barkley back. DG revamped the defense to be a top 10 unit. If this offense improves, which we all believe it will, why can’t this team win more than 7 games and get to the playoffs?

In comment 15260340 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15260303 Tuckrule said: Quote: Do you ignore the shitty roster we had when he came aboard? You just dismiss the roster overhaul that paid dividends last year. He is exactly on track in this rebuild. Year 3 of the QB is now. I still love how fans bitch about DG like he’s ruining the franchise it’s hysterical and shows me the average fan doesn’t know what a rebuild means. Reminder - we’ve had three consecutive double digit loss seasons. So until we actually have a winning record, Jones plays like the 6th pick in the draft, and we make the playoffs there are no dividends that have been paid.

Come on. I expect more from you. Your a very good poster. Jones plays like a 6th overall pick? How was josh Allen with limited talent? Aaron Rodgers couldn’t put this team on his back with the offensive “weapons” we had last season. Engram dropping balls causing INTs. Shepard banged up. Slayton banged up. Barkley out all year. This is the make or break for him. Added weapons and let’s see how innovative Garrett can be.

In comment 15260317 NYGgolfer said:

Quote:

In comment 15260303 Tuckrule said: Quote: Do you ignore the shitty roster we had when he came aboard? You just dismiss the roster overhaul that paid dividends last year. He is exactly on track in this rebuild. Year 3 of the QB is now. I still love how fans bitch about DG like he’s ruining the franchise it’s hysterical and shows me the average fan doesn’t know what a rebuild means. For all the average fans out there on pins and needles...what does a rebuild mean?

Tuckrule - haven't really seen your answer. what does a rebuild mean?

You mentioned to another poster that it doesn't really begin until you draft your future QB. But that doesn't really capture it for this average fan. For example, can't a team begin to rebuild their defense or offensive line and just leave a fill-in at QB for a year or two? Conversely, what if Jones isn't the future at QB and that is determined sometime this year? Does the rebuild begin again next year even though the NY Giants might have a top 10 defense, star RB, revamped WR unit and offensive line?

Again, maybe just answer the question...what's a rebuild? Please add some parameters and maybe even a threshold so the average fan can tell when the rebuild is over.

of course he made mistakes, but name one GM that hasn't. In '18, it appeared that he wanted to try to compete for playoffs while rebuilding. In retrospect that may have been a mistake (e.g., Solder), but I'm not going to kill him for it bc I was hoping for the same.

He ended up completely tearing it down, got some nice returns while getting rid of some aging high priced oft injured players.

I don't think completely overturning an NFL roster in 3 years is easy. I actually don't think I've ever seen it done.

And it appears (at least to some of us) that we're about to enter a very nice era. But some people just want to continue to bitch about the past, including years when none of the current coaches, decision makers or players were involved.

I’ll ignore the sarcasm and try and give you an answer.

A rebuild, to me, truly begins with finding the franchise QB. Yes you can work backwards and leave that for the end but is that truly how teams do it? Usually not. They locate their franchise guy and build inside out. In 2018 we tried to give eli one more shot. It was a poor move but at the same time DG had started to shed bad contracts and revamp the defense. The rebuilding period truly began when the giants acknowledged eli was done and a replacement was needed, the drafting of jones at 6th overall in 2019. Look at every single rookie qb. They are given 3 years to “prove”
Themselves worthy. This is the year! All the bitching about DG and the constant complaining is ridiculous. Look at this roster on paper and tell me which unit to you looks poor. The only complaint we have as fans is the offensive line and as far as the giants brass is concerned they are not worried. All the other units on paper look strong. Look at this roster now compared to prior to his arrival. Night and day.

The rebuild is over. Now it’s adding pieces that fit the teams dynamic so long as jones is the guy. We have 2 first round picks next season. Those 2 players, if jones is the guy, will significantly enhance this team whether that’s an offensive lineman an edge/DE type or even a dynamic tight end like Wydermyer.

frustration people have had with DG, especially his arrival after several years of poor records, but the idea that his slow start at rebuilding a team is unprecedented for good GM's is offbase, as is the idea that overhauling a poor roster is easy.

Ozzie Newsome took over a bad Browns/Ravens team and didn't reach .500 until his 4th season. Didn't have a winning record until his 5th

George Young had a winning season in his 3rd year but only 1 in his first 5

John Lynch (who is often credited here with rebuilding the Niners "quickly") has had 1 winning season out of his 4.

Scott Pioli had 1 winning season out of 4 as the Chiefs GM

Immediate success hasn't happened for many GM's, but we should at least see that progress is being made.

And if we are looking at success as a barometer, Gettleman is still Carolina's best ever GM from a winning percentage standpoint.

In comment 15260302 giantstock said:

Quote:

You realize the Giants have sucked since he came aboard, right? He hasn't accomplished shit yet, you realize that, right? Unless you're proud of a 6-10 team? If you are so confident that they have turned the corner, can you tell us all how much money you put down on the Giants to go over 7 wins?

I'm not a betting person, but if I was, I would place a good bet they're going to win >7 this year. For f*cks sake, they almost won 7 last year (with new coach, new offense, extremely young OL, no OTAs, no preseason and starting 1-7) with the worst offense in the league!

Despite all that, they finished the '20 season 5-3 and then added multiple playmakers. Do you really think Golladay, Toney, Rudolph and getting Barkley back isn't going to make a difference (for DJ and the team)?

Also, the young OL is more experienced and should have a normal training camp, preseason, and our D which was good in '20 should be even better in '21, etc., etc.

I'm predicting 10-6 in '21 and competing for SB in '22-23. Yeah, that's right.

Dave Gettleman had three offseasons here.

He has turned over 51 roster spots of the 53 man roster he inherited, in some instances multiple times. 96%.
That's how bad the roster was that was inherited. And if you're going to say that he shouldn't have shipped some of those people out, please state who and why.

He had 21 draft picks, and 3 free agency periods to do so. He also had to replace the franchise QB.

Regardless of whether you think he misjudged the roster when he first arrived, and regardless of when he started the rebuild... We now know the magnitude of what the rebuild entailed.

How fast was he supposed to turn over the ENTIRE roster including franchise QB with finite resources? Seems to me year 3 or 4 should start to show some dividends, and we've now started to see them.

you have seen threads like this in the offseason the past two years. Then the Giants have another losing season and everyone wants Gettlmean gone.

The only that will redeem Gettleman is a winning season.

In comment 15260302 giantstock said:

Quote:

In comment 15260024 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: In comment 15260011 Dr. D said: Quote: you cray cray? Have to admit it got pretty tiring having to read people say over and over that the Giants won't trade down bc "DG never trades down". And they acted like I'm stupid when I said we might trade down bc: the past is irrelevant, the sample size of DG's drafts is small and JJ (with his BB influence) now has input. Who's stupid now?! ha ha! I feel better now, thanks. FMiC. clearly explained who DG was in Carolina and why he left. He’s quite clued in to the Panthers, so though I didn’t want DG here when he was hired, I kept harkening back to FMiC’s posts on the matter. It motivated me to be patient. Might be paying off You realize the Giants have sucked since he came aboard, right? He hasn't accomplished shit yet, you realize that, right? Unless you're proud of a 6-10 team? If you are so confident that they have turned the corner, can you tell us all how much money you put down on the Giants to go over 7 wins?

Just a point of clarification, the purpose of the article wasn't to tell you that the Giants record over the past 3 or 6 or whatever years is anything other than what it was. The point was to describe and discuss the working relationship among among members of Giant management, with a particular emphasis on Gettleman and his head coaches.

In comment 15260395 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

frustration people have had with DG, especially his arrival after several years of poor records, but the idea that his slow start at rebuilding a team is unprecedented for good GM's is offbase, as is the idea that overhauling a poor roster is easy. Ozzie Newsome took over a bad Browns/Ravens team and didn't reach .500 until his 4th season. Didn't have a winning record until his 5th George Young had a winning season in his 3rd year but only 1 in his first 5 John Lynch (who is often credited here with rebuilding the Niners "quickly") has had 1 winning season out of his 4. Scott Pioli had 1 winning season out of 4 as the Chiefs GM Immediate success hasn't happened for many GM's, but we should at least see that progress is being made. And if we are looking at success as a barometer, Gettleman is still Carolina's best ever GM from a winning percentage standpoint.

Great post, FMIC

In comment 15260303 Tuckrule said:

Quote:

Do you ignore the shitty roster we had when he came aboard? You just dismiss the roster overhaul that paid dividends last year. He is exactly on track in this rebuild. Year 3 of the QB is now.

Good posts, Tuckrule.

I will give you a million dollars if we go 10-6 this year!

In comment 15260399 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

Dave Gettleman had three offseasons here. He has turned over 51 roster spots of the 53 man roster he inherited, in some instances multiple times. 96%. That's how bad the roster was that was inherited. And if you're going to say that he shouldn't have shipped some of those people out, please state who and why. He had 21 draft picks, and 3 free agency periods to do so. He also had to replace the franchise QB. Regardless of whether you think he misjudged the roster when he first arrived, and regardless of when he started the rebuild... We now know the magnitude of what the rebuild entailed. How fast was he supposed to turn over the ENTIRE roster including franchise QB with finite resources? Seems to me year 3 or 4 should start to show some dividends, and we've now started to see them.

good post, Britt

In comment 15260412 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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I will give you a million dollars if we go 10-6 this year!

For real?!

Now I'm really excited!

In comment 15260416 Dr. D said:

Quote:

In comment 15260412 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: I will give you a million dollars if we go 10-6 this year! For real?! Now I'm really excited!

I can have a contract written up, just give me your email addy and I'll send it over. Ha ha.

In comment 15260416 Dr. D said:

Quote:

In comment 15260412 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: I will give you a million dollars if we go 10-6 this year! For real?! Now I'm really excited!

There are 17 games this season :)

I’m siding with the Doc. I think this team will be competing for a playoff berth and be close to a 10 win team (17 game season)

In comment 15260422 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 15260416 Dr. D said: Quote: In comment 15260412 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: I will give you a million dollars if we go 10-6 this year! For real?! Now I'm really excited! There are 17 games this season :)

You're right, forgot. Damn it! That's why FMIC said he would give me a million dollars! Sonafa...

Hmmmm. 10-7 or 11-6? Might have to think about it.

Either way, it's more than 7!

of technicalities:)

We'll see when the schedule drops tomorrow, but I really think we can get to 11 wins.

...good conversation and info.

hopefully JJ will prove he is the coaching stud many of us hope/think he is and he'll be with us for 15-20 years and lead us to 2-5 more SB victories.

In comment 15260377 Tuckrule said:

Quote:

I’ll ignore the sarcasm and try and give you an answer. A rebuild, to me, truly begins with finding the franchise QB. Yes you can work backwards and leave that for the end but is that truly how teams do it? Usually not. They locate their franchise guy and build inside out. In 2018 we tried to give eli one more shot. It was a poor move but at the same time DG had started to shed bad contracts and revamp the defense. The rebuilding period truly began when the giants acknowledged eli was done and a replacement was needed, the drafting of jones at 6th overall in 2019. Look at every single rookie qb. They are given 3 years to “prove” Themselves worthy. This is the year! All the bitching about DG and the constant complaining is ridiculous. Look at this roster on paper and tell me which unit to you looks poor. The only complaint we have as fans is the offensive line and as far as the giants brass is concerned they are not worried. All the other units on paper look strong. Look at this roster now compared to prior to his arrival. Night and day.

Don't take some sarcasm too hard. After all, it was just in response to your post saying its hysterical the average fan doesn't know what a rebuild means, which has to have been made tongue in cheek, right?

But more importantly, back to the question of your definition of rebuilding. I think Jones still could be our go forward QB, deserves a 3rd year to show it but is still a major TBD. So what if he doesn't play well enough in 2021 but now the pieces around him look decent and some even strong...lets say he is determined not to be the future and Judge acknowledges that and go shopping for another QB next season.

Under your view, the rebuild would start over yet again and that makes no sense. It's not like the Giants are going to tear down the Defense and offensive line because they are looking for another QB.

Wouldn't it make more sense to suggest a team as poor as the Giants roster was back in 2018 started some rebuilding right away but the results were still bad so more had to get done, and some rebuilding was done incorrectly so those parts had to be redone altogether. After all, we still have Barkley, Hernandez, Carter, Peppers, etc. as guys who are still part of the starting package so surely they are part of the rebuild even though they came before Jones.

Simply put, the team has been rebuilding since early 2018. There is no perfect timeline for how long it takes but it has continued even through the Draft last week. On paper the NYG roster looks much better than 3 years ago but that has not translated yet enough on field to suggest where they are on rebuilding. If the Giants put up a winning record and Jones looks good the the rebuild has basically been addressed (though improvement and upgrades will always go on). If they continue stumbling through a losing season or Jones struggles, the rebuild just continues.

In comment 15260388 Tuckrule said:

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The rebuild is over. Now it’s adding pieces that fit the teams dynamic so long as jones is the guy. We have 2 first round picks next season. Those 2 players, if jones is the guy, will significantly enhance this team whether that’s an offensive lineman an edge/DE type or even a dynamic tight end like Wydermyer.

How could the rebuild be over if you don't know if Jones is the guy for the future? Isn't that contradicting the earlier statement?

In comment 15260395 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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frustration people have had with DG, especially his arrival after several years of poor records, but the idea that his slow start at rebuilding a team is unprecedented for good GM's is offbase, as is the idea that overhauling a poor roster is easy. Ozzie Newsome took over a bad Browns/Ravens team and didn't reach .500 until his 4th season. Didn't have a winning record until his 5th George Young had a winning season in his 3rd year but only 1 in his first 5 John Lynch (who is often credited here with rebuilding the Niners "quickly") has had 1 winning season out of his 4. Scott Pioli had 1 winning season out of 4 as the Chiefs GM Immediate success hasn't happened for many GM's, but we should at least see that progress is being made. And if we are looking at success as a barometer, Gettleman is still Carolina's best ever GM from a winning percentage standpoint.

The key part of this post tells us the NY Giants are most likely still rebuilding today. Again, continuous improvement happens with all ball clubs and that is different.

The Giants need to put up a winning record and one that has some realistic chance for sustainability to suggest the rebuild is over.

We’re having a discussion online. Your nitpicking every single word. If I had to respond to your stuff it would take me about 4 days and 50 Pages. The This isn’t an exact science. Some common sense has to kick in. Every teams rebuild is different it isn’t one boiler plate form for a rebuild. I said if jones is the guy the roster building is near done. We are talking roster building. That’s what a rebuild means. To me, jones has showed a lot with very little. Let’s see this year then we can revisit this convo

...maybe this will help:

Take out the prefix, "re."

The Giants are building a football team.

Go read the thread about “if daniel is the guy” it goes hand in hand with what I’m saying

In comment 15260473 NYGgolfer said:

Quote:

In comment 15260395 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: frustration people have had with DG, especially his arrival after several years of poor records, but the idea that his slow start at rebuilding a team is unprecedented for good GM's is offbase, as is the idea that overhauling a poor roster is easy. Ozzie Newsome took over a bad Browns/Ravens team and didn't reach .500 until his 4th season. Didn't have a winning record until his 5th George Young had a winning season in his 3rd year but only 1 in his first 5 John Lynch (who is often credited here with rebuilding the Niners "quickly") has had 1 winning season out of his 4. Scott Pioli had 1 winning season out of 4 as the Chiefs GM Immediate success hasn't happened for many GM's, but we should at least see that progress is being made. And if we are looking at success as a barometer, Gettleman is still Carolina's best ever GM from a winning percentage standpoint. The key part of this post tells us the NY Giants are most likely still rebuilding today. Again, continuous improvement happens with all ball clubs and that is different. The Giants need to put up a winning record and one that has some realistic chance for sustainability to suggest the rebuild is over.

Considering we haven't had a winning record, the "rebuild" is still happening. Does that change what has been said in the posts? We just added several key players in the offseason and draft. Whether or not that is "continuous improvement" or an extension of the rebuild is just semantics.

But you seem to be caught up in semantics for some reason.

I think the point being made is that:

Going by what they've said: they feel like they have the right coach. They feel they have the right QB. They feel like they've rebuilt the lines adequately. They feel like they have the weapons.

So yes, technically, the reshaping of the core of the roster is complete. Now we see if it translates onto the field and whether it was successful or not.

Yes, there will be continuous improvement needed no matter what. What we don't want is this to be a complete failure that we have to tear down again.

In comment 15260478 Tuckrule said:

Quote:

We’re having a discussion online. Your nitpicking every single word. If I had to respond to your stuff it would take me about 4 days and 50 Pages. The This isn’t an exact science. Some common sense has to kick in. Every teams rebuild is different it isn’t one boiler plate form for a rebuild. I said if jones is the guy the roster building is near done. We are talking roster building. That’s what a rebuild means. To me, jones has showed a lot with very little. Let’s see this year then we can revisit this convo

Yes, its just a discussion for average fans. One that is fine to have and really isn't about rehashing the past or blaming anybody. Its discussing what truly a rebuild is and where the NY Giants are in that process.

And agree, it isn't an exact science or boiler plate. Nor is it just about the QB for the future but also realizing how critical that piece is.

And roster building in my view is much closer to continuous improvement & upgrading. Rebuilding means basically an entirely new structure with key core elements need to be found/built from scratch.

the roster has been turned over by 98%, that's pretty significant to show that a rebuild has taken place and the GM now has to show results.

In comment 15260481 Brown_Hornet said:

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...maybe this will help: Take out the prefix, "re." The Giants are building a football team.

Either works. It's not like a playoff-level football team that won 11 games in 2016 didn't exist, right?

They are rebuilding from the remnants of that one that failed the following season.

In comment 15260512 NYGgolfer said:

Quote:

In comment 15260481 Brown_Hornet said: Quote: ...maybe this will help: Take out the prefix, "re." The Giants are building a football team. Either works. It's not like a playoff-level football team that won 11 games in 2016 didn't exist, right? They are rebuilding from the remnants of that one that failed the following season.

That team was smoke and mirrors. That was not a real foundation to build upon, but rather a foundation built on sand.

...the team has been bad. They're trying to build a winner.

In comment 15260495 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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Considering we haven't had a winning record, the "rebuild" is still happening. Does that change what has been said in the posts? We just added several key players in the offseason and draft. Whether or not that is "continuous improvement" or an extension of the rebuild is just semantics. But you seem to be caught up in semantics for some reason.

Not my intent. Came into the thread when it was posted the average fan doesn't know what a rebuild is, and that it doesn't start until a QB for the future is found. The former which we are discussing and the latter of which I disagree with.

But at the end of the day, as mentioned by several, the rebuild continues until this team puts up a winning record (with some sustainability). Rebuilding/building without ultimately winning more than you lose is just simply roster turnover. And any team can do that.

In comment 15260516 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 15260512 NYGgolfer said: Quote: In comment 15260481 Brown_Hornet said: Quote: ...maybe this will help: Take out the prefix, "re." The Giants are building a football team. Either works. It's not like a playoff-level football team that won 11 games in 2016 didn't exist, right? They are rebuilding from the remnants of that one that failed the following season. That team was smoke and mirrors. That was not a real foundation to build upon, but rather a foundation built on sand.

I agree that it had those elements. But how many fans really knew that at the time?

More importantly, how many fans really know if this isn't very similar? Examples: do we have the right QB in place, is the Left Tackle and rest of the OL good enough, will the expensive free agent additions be more than just a short term fix. Much the same, right?

I knew when McAdoo's offense failed to score 20 points for an NFL record 8 straight games that we were in BIG trouble, considering he was supposed to be some offensive guru.

In comment 15260346 Tuckrule said:

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Reminder - we’ve had three consecutive double digit loss seasons. So until we actually have a winning record, Jones plays like the 6th pick in the draft, and we make the playoffs there are no dividends that have been paid. Come on. I expect more from you. Your a very good poster. Jones plays like a 6th overall pick? How was josh Allen with limited talent? Aaron Rodgers couldn’t put this team on his back with the offensive “weapons” we had last season. Engram dropping balls causing INTs. Shepard banged up. Slayton banged up. Barkley out all year. This is the make or break for him. Added weapons and let’s see how innovative Garrett can be.

A lot to unpack here. I won't address the Rodgers comment because it's just silly. If you don't think he has the ability to make chicken salad than I don't know what to tell you.

As for Jones, yes, I expect the 6th pick in the draft to be a difference maker and create points. Do you really think Jones was picked to be just another spoke in the offensive wheel?

As for Josh Allen, many of us have been over this real estate before with this Josh Allen comp - not sure if you have been - but Allen showed considerably more through two years than Jones. In particular, he showed an incredible ability to make plays with his legs and be force rushing the ball. I could relist the stats, but suggest you check them out.

I mostly agree this should be the year where Jones should have no more excuses.

Again, my issue with your comments was you using the phrase "paying dividends". Like something has been accomplished yet. Nothing has. Sure, we may have felt better last year under Judge and that we seemed to be better prepared and coached. But it means nothing until we finish the season with more wins than losses.

would have been difficult to sustain without a lot of revamping on the offense and to have the D stay at a high level.

2018 had two red flags to it:
1) The Giants were in the top 5 in team health
2) The Giants had 21 takeaways with 16 INT's

In 2019, several key guys on D were injured, their OL was poor and the offense didn't improve.

While we had several D guys brought in on D last season, the feel was different. Our health was mid-low in the league. We didn't have gigantic contracts that hamstrung future moves. We added talent to the O. OL will still be a key element - but there are significant differences between 2018 and last season.

In comment 15260551 Britt in VA said:

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I knew when McAdoo's offense failed to score 20 points for an NFL record 8 straight games that we were in BIG trouble, considering he was supposed to be some offensive guru.

Ok, so what do you say right now? Is this a successful rebuild, is it done and the team will certainly put up a winning record in 2021?

As an aside the defensive side of the ball from that 2016 team also collapsed the next year and has been ravamped completely as part of this rebuild so it was more than just McAdoo's offense, right?

In comment 15260567 NYGgolfer said:

Quote:

In comment 15260551 Britt in VA said: Quote: I knew when McAdoo's offense failed to score 20 points for an NFL record 8 straight games that we were in BIG trouble, considering he was supposed to be some offensive guru. Ok, so what do you say right now? Is this a successful rebuild, is it done and the team will certainly put up a winning record in 2021? As an aside the defensive side of the ball from that 2016 team also collapsed the next year and has been ravamped completely as part of this rebuild so it was more than just McAdoo's offense, right?

If the offensive line holds up and delivers what they believe it will, then yes. That's always been the key.

This team has always gone as the offensive line goes. In all Superbowl and playoffs years (minus 2016), they had an offensive line. They have not had that since 2010, really. 2011 barely held it together. By 2012, it was over.

In comment 15260559 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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would have been difficult to sustain without a lot of revamping on the offense and to have the D stay at a high level. 2018 had two red flags to it: 1) The Giants were in the top 5 in team health 2) The Giants had 21 takeaways with 16 INT's In 2019, several key guys on D were injured, their OL was poor and the offense didn't improve. While we had several D guys brought in on D last season, the feel was different. Our health was mid-low in the league. We didn't have gigantic contracts that hamstrung future moves. We added talent to the O. OL will still be a key element - but there are significant differences between 2018 and last season.

Don't follow. Who would want to sustain 2018? Are you mixed up with discussing 2016?

that post should have reference 2016 and 2017.

My fault.

In comment 15260571 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 15260567 NYGgolfer said: Quote: In comment 15260551 Britt in VA said: Quote: I knew when McAdoo's offense failed to score 20 points for an NFL record 8 straight games that we were in BIG trouble, considering he was supposed to be some offensive guru. Ok, so what do you say right now? Is this a successful rebuild, is it done and the team will certainly put up a winning record in 2021? As an aside the defensive side of the ball from that 2016 team also collapsed the next year and has been ravamped completely as part of this rebuild so it was more than just McAdoo's offense, right? If the offensive line holds up and delivers what they believe it will, then yes. That's always been the key. This team has always gone as the offensive line goes. In all Superbowl and playoffs years (minus 2016), they had an offensive line. They have not had that since 2010, really. 2011 barely held it together. By 2012, it was over.

Agree somewhat but would say this differently anyway. The Offensive line doesn't need to hold up, it needs to improve, and fairly significantly.

And that improvement has to come from basically the same guys on the roster as last year sans swapping Zeitler with Fulton since really no other investments were made this offseason. Development of Thomas, Peart, and the other young guys is paramount.

In comment 15260578 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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that post should have reference 2016 and 2017. My fault.

Got it, no problem.

In comment 15260388 Tuckrule said:

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The rebuild is over. Now it’s adding pieces that fit the teams dynamic so long as jones is the guy. We have 2 first round picks next season. Those 2 players, if jones is the guy, will significantly enhance this team whether that’s an offensive lineman an edge/DE type or even a dynamic tight end like Wydermyer.

How do you know its over? If the Giants put up another losing season in 2021 there is far more still to be done.

I think Getty and Jints Central killed this draft and the entire off season. But... a good (and completely untested) off season hardly makes up for all the mistakes. And please, let’s not pretend there haven’t been enormous errors and brain numbing decisions by Getty & company.

It’s all a step in the right direction. But, the Giants need to win some games before I’m washing Dave’s old man balls.

In comment 15260731 trueblueinpw said:

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But, the Giants need to win some games before I’m washing Dave’s old man balls.

I can't WAIT for you to have to wash Dave's old man balls!

Maybe it could be a pay per view for charity! (ok, maybe not)

You misunderstood my point.

In comment 15260762 Dr. D said:

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In comment 15260731 trueblueinpw said: Quote: But, the Giants need to win some games before I’m washing Dave’s old man balls. I can't WAIT for you to have to wash Dave's old man balls! Maybe it could be a pay per view for charity! (ok, maybe not)

😀 🏀🎾🥎🏐

In comment 15260762 Dr. D said:

Quote:

In comment 15260731 trueblueinpw said: Quote: But, the Giants need to win some games before I’m washing Dave’s old man balls. I can't WAIT for you to have to wash Dave's old man balls! Maybe it could be a pay per view for charity! (ok, maybe not)

Hi, is this trueblueinpw? Yeah, I'm calling about, ya know, your offer...

In comment 15260762 Dr. D said:

Quote:

In comment 15260731 trueblueinpw said: Quote: But, the Giants need to win some games before I’m washing Dave’s old man balls. I can't WAIT for you to have to wash Dave's old man balls! Maybe it could be a pay per view for charity! (ok, maybe not)

NO! This is not the vision I want with my coffee. We don't talk about washing old man balls. I have to draw the line.

JUST NO!

This thread to see what we’re talking about

And now I’m really really regretting it.