for the future with the young talent we have now plus 7 picks in the first 4 rounds next year (including two 1st’s). Gives us the chance to move up for just about any player or stay put and build up even more depth.
And worst case, Jones has a bad season and we can package up some picks to move up and select the next QB. Keep in mind even if Jones has a crappy third year and we draft another QB it’s not really cost ineffective to keep Jones for year 4 and let him compete with the new guy. He’s still on a rookie scale deal.
Exciting time to be a Giants fan.
Having two first rounders is certainly not a bad thing though
Having two first rounders is certainly not a bad thing though
Good point, but QB’s will rise up like they do every year.
That said, we either need him to make big strides or completely fail miserably. The Giants cannot be caught in purgatory.
That said, we either need him to make big strides or completely fail miserably. The Giants cannot be caught in purgatory.
Yeah there's no worse place to be in sports than just meh.
Having two first rounders is certainly not a bad thing though
I believe (maybe just being optimistic) that he will pan out, but if he does not, maybe those two picks don’t have to be used to draft a qb but to help us get a vet?
Having two first rounders is certainly not a bad thing though
Can always use the picks to trade for a QB as well. No need to force it in the draft as you mentioned.
That trade down could be the deal that turned the tide...
That said, we either need him to make big strides or completely fail miserably. The Giants cannot be caught in purgatory.
Jones "gets" another shot in 2022 if he stinks again in 2021? Oof.
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most likely, then it's contract or bust and potential QB redraft in 2023.
That said, we either need him to make big strides or completely fail miserably. The Giants cannot be caught in purgatory.
Jones "gets" another shot in 2022 if he stinks again in 2021? Oof.
Yeah, he does. What's your alternative if he "stinks?"
Oof.
I’m hopeful that there is good reason to extend Jones.
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In comment 15260177 Bricktop said:
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most likely, then it's contract or bust and potential QB redraft in 2023.
That said, we either need him to make big strides or completely fail miserably. The Giants cannot be caught in purgatory.
Jones "gets" another shot in 2022 if he stinks again in 2021? Oof.
Yeah, he does. What's your alternative if he "stinks?"
Oof.
Most with a brain would argue he didn't stink in 2019 and most of 2020.
The narrative that he has is perpetuated by "fans" that dont know what they're looking at.
Or we get a nice blue chipper in a hopefully deep draft
My real hope is that in rd 3 we are getting 2 round talent because draft so deep
And first 32 picks ( since we draft 32) will seem like top 20 picks
Yup. How about Zach Wilson? Trey Lance? There will be QB’s thought of highly.
How right you are! I'm so tired of reading the posts from
the pessimists on BBI!
Such a load of shit. And if you're going to make that claim, have the balls to name names. Further, being a Stockholm Syndrome victim to shitty football is no better way of being a fan.
If Jones plays in 21 like he did in 19 and 20, the preferable alternatives will be numerous.
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hope Jones fails just so they're somehow proven correct or to improve their perceived knowledge of the game and team. It's a horrible way to be a fan, imo. But to each his own.
Such a load of shit. And if you're going to make that claim, have the balls to name names. Further, being a Stockholm Syndrome victim to shitty football is no better way of being a fan.
If Jones plays in 21 like he did in 19 and 20, the preferable alternatives will be numerous.
I didn't care for the Jones pick. I thought it was a mistake. Then, I grew up and realized bitching and moaning about the pick does absolutely nothing to further my enjoyment of being a Giants fan. So I'm pragmatic and unemotional about it. Apparently, the organization and investment in weapons this offseason supports that position.
I don't care if you're one of the "fans" I referred to previously. I don't know. But there are undoubtedly fans who want Jones to fail.
And what are these "preferable alternatives?" Hope that they fall so flat that a high draft pick is a foregone conclusion? Trade for a retread and hope it works out? Something else? Hope isn't a strategy.
I think Jones has enough to be successful. I've seen him make some elite-level throws, use his athleticism to run for big gains and also fall victim to bad drops, subpar route running, subpar OL play, a superstar RB injury, a pandemic, multiple coaching changes, playing with injuries and his best weapon being a rookie WR. Yes, he's got some warts. Maybe have some faith? Idk.
Feel free to offer your plan instead though.
You know what impacts my ability to enjoy being a fan? Shitty football.
I agree that hope isn't a strategy. And I don't have faith in anyone that hasn't earned it.
If Jones fails and a worthy QB is within range in 22, go for it. If 22 is weak and 23 is strong, trade for picks in 23.
They need to be strategic with what they’ve acquired.
You know what impacts my ability to enjoy being a fan? Shitty football.
I agree that hope isn't a strategy. And I don't have faith in anyone that hasn't earned it.
It's a good point. But I have faith that there are some real pieces in place now that set up Jones pretty well. There are measurable skills from new skill guys, an OL that should be improved and the return of Barkley. Plus, a defense that will help. Look - I get what you're saying (and you and I agreed on many things years ago before my break from BBI under my "B" handle - so I'm not trying to insult you or put you down for your position. I'm just choosing to stay positive. And you can't tell me that there's been a similar offseason since maybe Plax. There are some things to be really excited about.
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In comment 15260177 Bricktop said:
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most likely, then it's contract or bust and potential QB redraft in 2023.
That said, we either need him to make big strides or completely fail miserably. The Giants cannot be caught in purgatory.
Jones "gets" another shot in 2022 if he stinks again in 2021? Oof.
Yeah, he does. What's your alternative if he "stinks?"
Oof.
If he stinks, you have to draft a replacement next year. You're not going to give him a 5th year option, which means his teammates know he's toast. No need to waste a year.
Gentleman has to go too.
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most likely, then it's contract or bust and potential QB redraft in 2023.
That said, we either need him to make big strides or completely fail miserably. The Giants cannot be caught in purgatory.
Jones "gets" another shot in 2022 if he stinks again in 2021? Oof.
He didn't stink last year and quite honestly tgat leg injury nailed him just as the Oline was starting to play better. But, doesn't matter overall as he will succeed this year . You will still gripe but whatever it is what it is.
If Jones fails and a worthy QB is within range in 22, go for it. If 22 is weak and 23 is strong, trade for picks in 23.
They need to be strategic with what they’ve acquired.
Good post, 100% agree.
The Mayfield, Darnold, Rosen, and Allen draft was considered by some as the best since 2004.
Going into their final collegiate seasons Burrow and Mayfield were considered day 3 picks. Zach Wilson was battling for the starting job at BYU. Trey Lance and Carson Wentz were both unknown prospects going into their final seasons.
We have also seen overhyped QB's going from potential top 10 picks to day 3/UDFA's. There are some QB's that will come out of nowhere and end up being in the discussion for round 1.
I actually think this years class has some exciting arms. I think Spencer Rattler and Malik Willis have huge upsides. If they progress this season they could end up being the top 2 picks. Another QB prospect I like is Desmond Ridder. As an athlete Ridder reminds me of Daniel Jones. Plus from the limited highlights I've seen of Ridder he appears to be advanced going through his progressions.
That's a recipe for drafting in the top ten. I think the Bears will also be drafting in the top ten. That will likely be enough to get a top quarterback prospect.
And here's the key: if they're smart they'll be able to draft a quarterback according what Judge wants in a quarterback. Not Mara, not Gettleman, not Accorsi. Judge is the talent in the building - let him draft his quarterback and I'm confident we'll be in business shortly after.
Last year he was learning a new offense on the fly with no practice time prior to training camp. Now that he is more comfortable in the offense things will slow down for him. The upgrade in talent at WR and TE will have a profound impact on his performance as well.
Golladay and Rudolph are two safety nets that Daniel Jones has desperately needed. Ross, Toney, and Pettis bring significant speed to the offense.
You know what impacts my ability to enjoy being a fan? Shitty football.
I agree that hope isn't a strategy. And I don't have faith in anyone that hasn't earned it.
Terps actually nails it here…. Shitty football has undoubtedly affected my enjoyment of the NFL in our recent slump…just glad to see we’re finally pulling up from the nosedive…
I wouldn't call it weak but right now it's not as impressive as some recent classes.
Now, I do agree it still needs to play out, but at this time it's hard to make a case for this being an elite class. Elite meaning, to me, guys who have multiple "plus" attributes - i.e. size, arm, mobility, speed, etc.
Yeah, Rattler was a big time recruit and the top dual threat QB in the 2019 class. He isn't the biggest guy, but he certainly has high level arm talent and he's under the tutelage of Riley, a true QB guru. Which is turning out to be pretty positive marker come draft time.
But he's definitely in the mix of the QBs to keep an eye on...
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a weak QB draft. As history has shown we have no idea how QB classes will develop over the next year. The Mahomes and Watson draft was considered a weak class.
I wouldn't call it weak but right now it's not as impressive as some recent classes.
Now, I do agree it still needs to play out, but at this time it's hard to make a case for this being an elite class. Elite meaning, to me, guys who have multiple "plus" attributes - i.e. size, arm, mobility, speed, etc.
Malik Willis has several “plus” attributes including arm strength, mobility, and speed. Willis has the strongest arm since Josh Allen.
IMO he’s the favorite to be the #1 pick next year.
Or we get a nice blue chipper in a hopefully deep draft
My real hope is that in rd 3 we are getting 2 round talent because draft so deep
And first 32 picks ( since we draft 32) will seem like top 20 picks
Last year he was learning a new offense on the fly with no practice time prior to training camp. Now that he is more comfortable in the offense things will slow down for him. The upgrade in talent at WR and TE will have a profound impact on his performance as well.
Golladay and Rudolph are two safety nets that Daniel Jones has desperately needed. Ross, Toney, and Pettis bring significant speed to the offense.
Good posts Jay, agree with you. Every year QB’s pop up out of nowhere in college. If Jones isn’t the guy we have the ammo to get another one. The key is the Giants are getting better and seemingly on the right track with Judge.
We're fans. We can have hope or we can have no hope...
...in so much as we can have a strategy, Hope is about the extent of our possible contribution.
But he needs to step up to the "consistently competent" level for this franchise to go anywhere.
And if he can't, then the #6 selection of the 2019 Draft will have set the Giants franchise back at least 5 years.
But he needs to step up to the "consistently competent" level for this franchise to go anywhere.
And if he can't, then the #6 selection of the 2019 Draft will have set the Giants franchise back at least 5 years.
Daniel Jones doesn't have to become a "great QB
But he needs to step up to the "consistently competent" level for this franchise to go anywhere.
And if he can't, then the #6 selection of the 2019 Draft will have set the Giants franchise back at least 5 years.
The Giants have to determine
1. Jones is good enough to win the division with a very good team around him across the board but unlikely to expect much in a playoff run.
2. Jones is the reason the team won't win the division with a very good team.
3. Definite conviction is has the ability to win both division and a championship with a very good team (hardest to determine)
If Jones is number 2 they will aggressively make a move next offseason if they see a upgrade. Number 1 is where many teams have found themselves and the Giants may also be in this category. The problem with 1 is that is not always definitive which is why some teams stay with that QB for quite some time.
The Giants have improved the roster dramatically
and he has enough talent around him now to succeed.
I'm betting he will.
The Giants have to determine
1. Jones is good enough to win the division with a very good team around him across the board but unlikely to expect much in a playoff run.
2. Jones is the reason the team won't win the division with a very good team.
3. Definite conviction is has the ability to win both division and a championship with a very good team (hardest to determine)
If Jones is number 2 they will aggressively make a move next offseason if they see a upgrade. Number 1 is where many teams have found themselves and the Giants may also be in this category. The problem with 1 is that is not always definitive which is why some teams stay with that QB for quite some time.
Here's the bigger issue...DJ is making $8-10 mil a year right now. $18-20 mil on a 5th year option and, even if just above average, $30-35 mil in year 6, and beyond. So, even if next years team is good with him, can the team stay relevant as his salary quadruples in 2 years. Paying DJ means other players have to go and he has to be good enough to justify the talent loss his salary will create.
Or we get a nice blue chipper in a hopefully deep draft
My real hope is that in rd 3 we are getting 2 round talent because draft so deep
And first 32 picks ( since we draft 32) will seem like top 20 picks
Not sure why fans were speculating that the Bears pick. Might be a top 10 or even 5 pick, when trade was announced.
They made the playoffs last season and Dalton is an upgrade over Trubisky. Even Fields might be.
Would be great if those fans are correct, but top 20 pick seems just as likely, still a good trade.
That said, the Giants will be able to move way up if needed for a Blue Chipper or consider (2) very attractive additions in 2022.
In the weaker (so they say) 2021 draft, consider what the Giants could have done with, say, picks 13 & 23?
These guys were drafted between 13 & 23
- Slater
- Vera-Tucker
- Jones
- Collins
- Leatherwood
- Phillips
- Davis
- Toney
- Paye
- Farley
- Darrisaw
Go Danny Go!
After that game, DJ went five games without throwing an INT (and then, in the season finale, threw only that can only be described as an "Engram") and lost fumbles only against the Cardinals when he was clearly injured and a sitting duck in the pocket.
I believe the Giants went 4-2 during those final six games that he started. And that's with the pretty terrible group of 'weapons' he had around him.
I hope the 2020 TB game - and Garrett's blunt comments to DJ after that game - will always be seen as the turning point for a QB who then went on to win a super bowl for the Giants.
Isn't chasing the mistake the bigger hindrance? In the two drafts after we picked Jones we had the opportunity to pick both Herbert and Fields without so much as a trade up.
The opportunities to pivot of you don't like the QB you drafted are there - college football is producing better quarterbacks at a higher number than in the past.
The sin is drafting the wrong guy and stubbornly hoping he becomes the right guy. That's what sets you back. "Giving" Jones years regardless of performance... that's the kind of strategy that really tests whether being a fan is even worth it.
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to prove he's the QB. Giants will add two talents in the first round next year, and at least one of those picks is likely to be top 10. No rushing to draft a QB in '22 unless he's the right QB, another mistake takes us in the second half of the friggin decade with no end in sight.
Isn't chasing the mistake the bigger hindrance? In the two drafts after we picked Jones we had the opportunity to pick both Herbert and Fields without so much as a trade up.
The opportunities to pivot of you don't like the QB you drafted are there - college football is producing better quarterbacks at a higher number than in the past.
The sin is drafting the wrong guy and stubbornly hoping he becomes the right guy. That's what sets you back. "Giving" Jones years regardless of performance... that's the kind of strategy that really tests whether being a fan is even worth it.
How long did they stick with Dave Brown? If that was the case the Giants would have zero fans
It is what it is.
I would prefer an exceptional or terrible 2021 for Jones to make the call easy.
We are not going to get that.
What I think happens.
Some great games.
Some real stinkers.
Mostly average.
I want better than that, it isn't terribly realistic because I just described most NFL QBs this upcoming season. Everyone wants the next Mahomes.
Reality is that if a team finds a QB they like physically with traits they are looking for, combined with intangibles, that QB is going to get a real chance to develop.
Whether you like it or not, that is the boat we are in.
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to prove he's the QB. Giants will add two talents in the first round next year, and at least one of those picks is likely to be top 10. No rushing to draft a QB in '22 unless he's the right QB, another mistake takes us in the second half of the friggin decade with no end in sight.
Isn't chasing the mistake the bigger hindrance? In the two drafts after we picked Jones we had the opportunity to pick both Herbert and Fields without so much as a trade up.
The opportunities to pivot of you don't like the QB you drafted are there - college football is producing better quarterbacks at a higher number than in the past.
The sin is drafting the wrong guy and stubbornly hoping he becomes the right guy. That's what sets you back. "Giving" Jones years regardless of performance... that's the kind of strategy that really tests whether being a fan is even worth it.
I think the Giants drafted the wrong guy, but I don't think they pull the plug on him after one more season. They're invested in the kid just like the fans are. I'd wager some in the building think he's Eli 2.0 with wheels, and he's going to get every opportunity to succeed.
"It's 10:30AM. Have you shit on Daniel Jones, yet?"
The opportunities to pivot if you don't like the QB you drafted are there - college football is producing better quarterbacks at a higher number than in the past.
The part you may be missing is that the Giants appear to like the QB that they drafted.
Exaggeration seems to be in play often though.
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When you say "set the bar artificially high"...what does that mean?
A point a person feels he cannot reach.
I think even his worst detractors have been reasonable in their expectations. No one is requiring he throw 40 TDs and 5 picks...even his biggest fans don't think he's capable of that (which tells you something).
Asking that he throws around 30 TDs, cuts down the turnovers, and leads the offense to 25+ points per game...that seems artificially high to you?
Nobody wants either the OL or QB to fail so as to win arguments on a football site. But I for one, as a long time fan of this truly great franchise, will rage with disgust if poor performance is considered satisfactory and further bad decisions are made to justify prior bad decisions. My apologies in advance for my future venting as BBI is a site that I have grown to value for the information, insight and learned opinions on my beloved team.
If Jones gets this team to the playoffs in 2021 he should be extended to a fifth year. If not, a new quarterback should be either drafted or acquired in 2022 to compete with Jones for the quarterback job in 2022. Under no circumstances should Jones be given a second contract unless he is beating good teams and winning playoff game(s) in 2022.
Well, you know I would've not drafted Jones and waited for a better QB prospect a year later, which would've been Herbert. I think Jones can be an above average NFL QB, and they've got to surround him with the talent that creates the synergy to achieve it. On paper now, they've increased the talent around him. Might need more on the OL and SB needs to demonstrate he's healthy and his old self. But, I think they'll decide they need 2021 and 2022 to prove out their design before moving on, because of how important continuity is in the game of football, and because they're invested in these young men.
Malik Willis has several “plus” attributes including arm strength, mobility, and speed. Willis has the strongest arm since Josh Allen.
You could be right. I'm looking forward to checking our some video and watching him play next year.
Whatever those numbers look like, I'm good with them.
Exaggeration seems to be in play often though.
Two of the last three MVPs were second year quarterbacks. Josh Allen was a legit MVP candidate in year 3. Justin Herbert had a fantastic rookie season despite having every excuse not to.
It's ok to want better things for the Giants. It doesn't have to be a struggle to get to 7 wins and 20 points per game.
Daniel Jones doesn't have to become a "great QB
But he needs to step up to the "consistently competent" level for this franchise to go anywhere.
And if he can't, then the #6 selection of the 2019 Draft will have set the Giants franchise back at least 5 years.
Think about what you wrote - Jones basically just needs to be "consistently competent". And that will hopefully be good enough.
I know you would prefer him to be great - IMV, he needs to be very good as the 6th pick - but the bar has been adjusted so low for Jones that it's stunning.
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college football really producing better QB's now? You still have a fair amount of busts on highly drafted guys and the amount of "old school" franchise QB's still outnumbers the younger ones.
Exaggeration seems to be in play often though.
Two of the last three MVPs were second year quarterbacks. Josh Allen was a legit MVP candidate in year 3. Justin Herbert had a fantastic rookie season despite having every excuse not to.
It's ok to want better things for the Giants. It doesn't have to be a struggle to get to 7 wins and 20 points per game.
How does that equate to college football producing great QB's at a higher rate?? Prior to that, you had years of Rodgers, Mannings, Ben, Brady, Brees, etc. dominating play.
You still have guys out there who are young that will fail and fail quickly. Rosen and Haskins. Look at the playoff teams from last year and you still had more QB's from pre-2015 than ones from after then.
Plenty of high 1st round QB's have busted over the past ten years. That's what's stunning. For them to actually become average to above avg. NFL QB's is the anomaly, really. There are 32 starting NFL QB's in the league. That's it. How many top 10 QB's have been drafted in the past 10 years, and how many of those are among the 32?
If Jones becomes an average starting NFL QB for several years, he will have beaten the odds.
There were 22 quarterbacks drafted in the first round between the 2009 and 2016 seasons and all of them came with hopes that they’d lead their teams for years to come.
Some of those players had extended runs with their original teams, but, as Field Yates of ESPN notes, none of them are expected to be with the team that drafted them when the 2021 season gets underway. Carson Wentz was the last of the 22 set to be with the same team, but Thursday’s word that the Colts and Eagles have agreed on a trade means it will be a clean sweep as long as that trade and the Matthew Stafford–Jared Goff swap go through as planned.
Stafford was the first overall pick in 2009 and had the longest run with his original team. The full list of the quarterbacks is below:
2009: Stafford, Lions; Mark Sanchez, Jets; Josh Freeman, Buccaneers.
2010: Sam Bradford, Rams; Tim Tebow, Broncos.
2011: Cam Newton, Panthers; Jake Locker, Titans; Blaine Gabbert, Jaguars; Christian Ponder, Vikings.
2012: Andrew Luck, Colts; Robert Griffin III, Washington; Ryan Tannehill, Dolphins; Brandon Weeden, Browns.
2013: EJ Manuel, Bills.
2014: Blake Bortles, Jaguars; Johnny Manziel, Browns; Teddy Bridgewater, Vikings.
2015: Jameis Winston, Buccaneers; Marcus Mariota, Titans.
2016: Goff, Rams; Wentz, Eagles; Paxton Lynch, Broncos.
There were three quarterbacks taken in the first round of the 2017 draft. Two of them — Mitch Trubisky and Deshaun Watson — may be with different teams next year, but it seems unlikely that Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs will be splitting up in the near future.
No QBs drafted in first round from 2009-16 are set to be on original team in 2021 - ( New Window )
Plenty of high 1st round QB's have busted over the past ten years. That's what's stunning. For them to actually become average to above avg. NFL QB's is the anomaly, really. There are 32 starting NFL QB's in the league. That's it. How many top 10 QB's have been drafted in the past 10 years, and how many of those are among the 32?
If Jones becomes an average starting NFL QB for several years, he will have beaten the odds.
So now we are hoping Jones becomes an average starting NFL QB??
Weren't you in Nashville for the draft in 2019? When yo heard Jones's name that was your first thought? 'Please NFL Gods - let Daniel Jones become an average NFL QB...'
Rewind to when Eli was picked (traded for) as the top QB. Were you hoping Eli would become an "average starting NFL QB"??
JFC.
Look, I agree it's very difficult to project college QBs to the pros. But Gettleman is paid millions of dollars to find the right QB and buck any of the trends you cited. If Jones fails, do you think Gettleman is going to waltz into Mara's office citing your stats? And ask for forgiveness?
JFC. These low expectations are just embarrassing at this point...
BTW, what were your expectations when we picked Barkley? Just be an average NFL RB?
After that game, DJ went five games without throwing an INT (and then, in the season finale, threw only that can only be described as an "Engram") and lost fumbles only against the Cardinals when he was clearly injured and a sitting duck in the pocket.
I believe the Giants went 4-2 during those final six games that he started. And that's with the pretty terrible group of 'weapons' he had around him.
I hope the 2020 TB game - and Garrett's blunt comments to DJ after that game - will always be seen as the turning point for a QB who then went on to win a super bowl for the Giants.
Exactly the way I feel as well. He will get two years and I think he will do well.
Eli Manning never set the stat sheet on fire compared to his contemporaries, other than INT's. He only threw for 30 TD's 3 times in 16 years. But he led the team to a lot of wins for a long time. I hope Jones does the same.
My guess is that JJ's not going to be too patient w/ JG this year and if necessary, JG will be respectfully asked to either adapt, leave or hand over play calling to someone like Kitchens.
My gut feeling is that won't be necessary. I think JG was dealing with a really bad hand last year and his play calling will be pretty drastically different/better this year.
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Is there a history of 6th overall picks that Jones needs to live up to or something?
Plenty of high 1st round QB's have busted over the past ten years. That's what's stunning. For them to actually become average to above avg. NFL QB's is the anomaly, really. There are 32 starting NFL QB's in the league. That's it. How many top 10 QB's have been drafted in the past 10 years, and how many of those are among the 32?
If Jones becomes an average starting NFL QB for several years, he will have beaten the odds.
So now we are hoping Jones becomes an average starting NFL QB??
Weren't you in Nashville for the draft in 2019? When yo heard Jones's name that was your first thought? 'Please NFL Gods - let Daniel Jones become an average NFL QB...'
Rewind to when Eli was picked (traded for) as the top QB. Were you hoping Eli would become an "average starting NFL QB"??
JFC.
Look, I agree it's very difficult to project college QBs to the pros. But Gettleman is paid millions of dollars to find the right QB and buck any of the trends you cited. If Jones fails, do you think Gettleman is going to waltz into Mara's office citing your stats? And ask for forgiveness?
JFC. These low expectations are just embarrassing at this point...
BTW, what were your expectations when we picked Barkley? Just be an average NFL RB?
JFC, can you stop twisting Britt’s words? Britt did not say that that he was hoping that Jones becomes average. Britt said IF he becomes average he beats the odds as so many have failed as evidenced by the names listed above.
A little reading comprehension can be helpful but I have a feeling you knew what he meant. You just took another opportunity to shit on Jones and/or criticize those who haven’t given up on him yet.
"It's 10:30AM. Have you shit on Daniel Jones, yet?"
Lol. good 1
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Is there a history of 6th overall picks that Jones needs to live up to or something?
Plenty of high 1st round QB's have busted over the past ten years. That's what's stunning. For them to actually become average to above avg. NFL QB's is the anomaly, really. There are 32 starting NFL QB's in the league. That's it. How many top 10 QB's have been drafted in the past 10 years, and how many of those are among the 32?
If Jones becomes an average starting NFL QB for several years, he will have beaten the odds.
So now we are hoping Jones becomes an average starting NFL QB??
Weren't you in Nashville for the draft in 2019? When yo heard Jones's name that was your first thought? 'Please NFL Gods - let Daniel Jones become an average NFL QB...'
Rewind to when Eli was picked (traded for) as the top QB. Were you hoping Eli would become an "average starting NFL QB"??
JFC.
Look, I agree it's very difficult to project college QBs to the pros. But Gettleman is paid millions of dollars to find the right QB and buck any of the trends you cited. If Jones fails, do you think Gettleman is going to waltz into Mara's office citing your stats? And ask for forgiveness?
JFC. These low expectations are just embarrassing at this point...
BTW, what were your expectations when we picked Barkley? Just be an average NFL RB?
Do you want to continually draft them in round 1 until they find one that immediately hits regardless of them talent around them or the circumstances of a particular season?
That doesn't seem intelligent or wise. Jones was my remote throw pick. Still, giving him next year seems wise. I could see giving him another year after if he shows reasonable growth but is not in the MVP talks yet depending on what is available.
If we were close friends.
BW, Terps, chill the fuck out.
THIS is my biggest criticism. I think they can win with Jones, but he will NEVER be in Herbert's league (if his trajectory continues).
THIS is my biggest criticism. I think they can win with Jones, but he will NEVER be in Herbert's league (if his trajectory continues).
It should be noted that the fans had largely run out of patience in 2019 and wanted Eli Manning out, really at what felt like any cost. Had the Giants just let Eli Manning play out his contract and ride off into the sunset, Herbert would be a Giant right now. But patience was not a virtue in 2019.
And a bit more disturbing is that the Giants Front Office similarly met expectations with that pick as well.
Obviously DJ is a polarizing topic right now, but that is how it comes off above.
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based on how the QB scouting went in 2019, it was pretty clear Gettleman wanted to draft Herbert. When he went back to school, they pivoted and took Schumer's guy (Jones), who Gettleman ONLY saw at the Senior Bowl. If you want to criticize their process, THIS deserves criticism. It doesn't mean Jones can't become a top notch QB. Taking your "back up choice", is not a good recipe for success.
THIS is my biggest criticism. I think they can win with Jones, but he will NEVER be in Herbert's league (if his trajectory continues).
It should be noted that the fans had largely run out of patience in 2019 and wanted Eli Manning out, really at what felt like any cost. Had the Giants just let Eli Manning play out his contract and ride off into the sunset, Herbert would be a Giant right now. But patience was not a virtue in 2019.
The fans drove the Giants Front Office to make a suboptimal decision on both Manning and finding the next QB?
I don't think so unless that was sarcasm.
He will either lead this team to playoff football this year or he won't. And if anything short of that is acceptable to the ownership, management and coaching staff, then the Giants are headed for the NFL graveyard of broken franchises where abandoning hope will be the pre-requisite of all fans who enter...
May Mara have the courage to change the things he can...
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based on how the QB scouting went in 2019, it was pretty clear Gettleman wanted to draft Herbert. When he went back to school, they pivoted and took Schumer's guy (Jones), who Gettleman ONLY saw at the Senior Bowl. If you want to criticize their process, THIS deserves criticism. It doesn't mean Jones can't become a top notch QB. Taking your "back up choice", is not a good recipe for success.
THIS is my biggest criticism. I think they can win with Jones, but he will NEVER be in Herbert's league (if his trajectory continues).
It should be noted that the fans had largely run out of patience in 2019 and wanted Eli Manning out, really at what felt like any cost. Had the Giants just let Eli Manning play out his contract and ride off into the sunset, Herbert would be a Giant right now. But patience was not a virtue in 2019.
Or had the Giants done the right thing and moved on from Eli in 2018, Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen could be the quarterback. Or if they'd picked Darnold and he flopped in the same way he did with the Jets, any of Herbert/Lawrence/Wilson/Lance/Fields would be the quarterback.
There were numerous routes the Giants could have chosen with regards to the transition from Eli. The route they chose speaks for itself.
JFC, can you stop twisting Britt’s words? Britt did not say that that he was hoping that Jones becomes average. Britt said IF he becomes average he beats the odds as so many have failed as evidenced by the names listed above.
A little reading comprehension can be helpful but I have a feeling you knew what he meant. You just took another opportunity to shit on Jones and/or criticize those who haven’t given up on him yet.
What I actually did was take another opportunity to illustrate how many continue to reframe expectations of Jones. Because Britt wrote:
If Jones becomes an average starting NFL QB for several years, he will have beaten the odds.
What's the motive behind even writing that?
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based on how the QB scouting went in 2019, it was pretty clear Gettleman wanted to draft Herbert. When he went back to school, they pivoted and took Schumer's guy (Jones), who Gettleman ONLY saw at the Senior Bowl. If you want to criticize their process, THIS deserves criticism. It doesn't mean Jones can't become a top notch QB. Taking your "back up choice", is not a good recipe for success.
THIS is my biggest criticism. I think they can win with Jones, but he will NEVER be in Herbert's league (if his trajectory continues).
It should be noted that the fans had largely run out of patience in 2019 and wanted Eli Manning out, really at what felt like any cost. Had the Giants just let Eli Manning play out his contract and ride off into the sunset, Herbert would be a Giant right now. But patience was not a virtue in 2019.
Interesting. Prolly right.
Unfortunately, I think patience is never a virtue for some.
I wouldn't doubt that some of the same people who want DJ gone (after his 2nd season) were also, at some point before or during 2007 (Eli's 4th season), looking at the QBs coming out in the '08 draft.
(for those looking to disagree, I'm not saying the Giants are going to win the SB this year. That's next year).
And a bit more disturbing is that the Giants Front Office similarly met expectations with that pick as well.
Obviously DJ is a polarizing topic right now, but that is how it comes off above.
Exactly.
If Jones isn't very good - damn. But if he's average we'll take that because he bucked a recurring trend...
But if they win 6 or 7 are we still going to be in the mood to "give" Jones 2022?
But if they win 6 or 7 are we still going to be in the mood to "give" Jones 2022?
No, he needs to be replaced if we are that far under .500
Do you want to continually draft them in round 1 until they find one that immediately hits regardless of them talent around them or the circumstances of a particular season?
That doesn't seem intelligent or wise. Jones was my remote throw pick. Still, giving him next year seems wise. I could see giving him another year after if he shows reasonable growth but is not in the MVP talks yet depending on what is available.
If we were close friends.
BW, Terps, chill the fuck out.
I am well aware of the hit rate on QBs drafted high. It's a very hard thing to try and project college play to the NFL. But - and I mean this with all due respect - so what?
I expect the GM to get it right. To be on the right side of the hit rate %. Is that really me being unreasonable?
I'm just sensing this growing theme as Jones enters critical year three - 'please just be decent, and we'll take that as good enough.'
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Are you aware of the failure rate on QBs drafted, even in round one? How many of them become elite?
Do you want to continually draft them in round 1 until they find one that immediately hits regardless of them talent around them or the circumstances of a particular season?
That doesn't seem intelligent or wise. Jones was my remote throw pick. Still, giving him next year seems wise. I could see giving him another year after if he shows reasonable growth but is not in the MVP talks yet depending on what is available.
If we were close friends.
BW, Terps, chill the fuck out.
I am well aware of the hit rate on QBs drafted high. It's a very hard thing to try and project college play to the NFL. But - and I mean this with all due respect - so what?
I expect the GM to get it right. To be on the right side of the hit rate %. Is that really me being unreasonable?
I'm just sensing this growing theme as Jones enters critical year three - 'please just be decent, and we'll take that as good enough.'
You can win with a less than decent quarterback (Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Carson Wentz/Nick Foles), but I think that Jones should at least be decent. He doesn't have to be Tom Brady or Peyton Manning; I'd be satisfied if he became Eli's level.
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Jones leads then to 10-11 wins in 2021 and I won't have a leg to stand on.
But if they win 6 or 7 are we still going to be in the mood to "give" Jones 2022?
No, he needs to be replaced if we are that far under .500
Most certainly. Obviously can be a scenario where Jones is one of the overachievers and other units of the team caused too many losses, but that would be unusual.
Jones will be here a while. I suggest some of you get used to it. IF the Giants see a palatable path or solution that offers up a better option at QB, they will get that QB. The better Jones looks these next 2 years would mean it's less and less likely that QB is in the Giants crosshairs.
Just fucking watch this season and shut your pie-holes. LEt it play out. Christ.
But if they win 6 or 7 are we still going to be in the mood to "give" Jones 2022?
JonC has been stating this for many months - Jones will very likely get the next two years to showcase if he's the solution.
Which suggest Judge has also purchased Jones stock for the long term...
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Jones leads then to 10-11 wins in 2021 and I won't have a leg to stand on.
But if they win 6 or 7 are we still going to be in the mood to "give" Jones 2022?
JonC has been stating this for many months - Jones will very likely get the next two years to showcase if he's the solution.
Which suggest Judge has also purchased Jones stock for the long term...
That's gonna be a real tough sell if they go 7-10 and are sitting there with two high first rounders.
I wouldn't categorize it as weak. It's just not as prolific as recent classes. Some good players, but most of them are undersized (6' to 6'2") and new to show much more. IMV.
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Are you aware of the failure rate on QBs drafted, even in round one? How many of them become elite?
Do you want to continually draft them in round 1 until they find one that immediately hits regardless of them talent around them or the circumstances of a particular season?
That doesn't seem intelligent or wise. Jones was my remote throw pick. Still, giving him next year seems wise. I could see giving him another year after if he shows reasonable growth but is not in the MVP talks yet depending on what is available.
If we were close friends.
BW, Terps, chill the fuck out.
I am well aware of the hit rate on QBs drafted high. It's a very hard thing to try and project college play to the NFL. But - and I mean this with all due respect - so what?
I expect the GM to get it right. To be on the right side of the hit rate %. Is that really me being unreasonable?
I'm just sensing this growing theme as Jones enters critical year three - 'please just be decent, and we'll take that as good enough.'
I believe Jones has a number of things that Judge finds attractive because of the culture he trying to build. BW, I think you are going to be shocked how well he does. Just as much as their is a need for a GM/HC partnership that works, you need HC/QB.
Judge seems to have a strong desire to succeed, he isn't going to stick with Jones if nothing is there. Let's watch, I know you have enough self awareness to realize that you might be wrong even if statistically, the odds are with you on Jones.
What else is there?
Continually complain about something you have no control over?
No. Disappointing is a personal measure against expectations.
However, the expectation is a QB at 6 should be better than a QB at 17. Further, I don't think its at all unreasonable to think the expectation of both should be that they will be very good QBs.
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In comment 15260660 Go Terps said:
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Jones leads then to 10-11 wins in 2021 and I won't have a leg to stand on.
But if they win 6 or 7 are we still going to be in the mood to "give" Jones 2022?
JonC has been stating this for many months - Jones will very likely get the next two years to showcase if he's the solution.
Which suggest Judge has also purchased Jones stock for the long term...
That's gonna be a real tough sell if they go 7-10 and are sitting there with two high first rounders.
Yea this is bullshit. You're not just going to cut the guy if he struggles but the Giants won't blindly give anyone two more years if he doesn't earn it. Again, this just more manufactured fear around here. JonC or even Judge himself doesn't know how long Jones has at this very moment. The guy could completely ruin his career in the blink of an eye. Or he could play well but not dominate. Giants will make an educated decision.
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In comment 15260604 Thegratefulhead said:
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Are you aware of the failure rate on QBs drafted, even in round one? How many of them become elite?
Do you want to continually draft them in round 1 until they find one that immediately hits regardless of them talent around them or the circumstances of a particular season?
That doesn't seem intelligent or wise. Jones was my remote throw pick. Still, giving him next year seems wise. I could see giving him another year after if he shows reasonable growth but is not in the MVP talks yet depending on what is available.
If we were close friends.
BW, Terps, chill the fuck out.
I am well aware of the hit rate on QBs drafted high. It's a very hard thing to try and project college play to the NFL. But - and I mean this with all due respect - so what?
I expect the GM to get it right. To be on the right side of the hit rate %. Is that really me being unreasonable?
I'm just sensing this growing theme as Jones enters critical year three - 'please just be decent, and we'll take that as good enough.'
I want the next Mahomes too. Most of the GMs are wrong most of time on QBs. It is really hard to figure who can handle a NFL locker room, huddle, media pressure, has the work ethic once made rich ect ect ect. You get it, I know you do.
I believe Jones has a number of things that Judge finds attractive because of the culture he trying to build. BW, I think you are going to be shocked how well he does. Just as much as their is a need for a GM/HC partnership that works, you need HC/QB.
Judge seems to have a strong desire to succeed, he isn't going to stick with Jones if nothing is there. Let's watch, I know you have enough self awareness to realize that you might be wrong even if statistically, the odds are with you on Jones.
What else is there?
Continually complain about something you have no control over?
Maybe that's why people complain, because they have no control over it? I've complained about the pass rush as the day is long on this forum.
Yes, that is something like what I was referring to although unusual.
We know he is above average on throws downfield into tight windows, you only have to look at Golloday highlights to se how that might play. People like to talk about force multipliers.
What happens to the running game if the defense has to honor the deep passing game?
What happens to passing efficiency if play action works?
Does it help to have TE that can block and has sure hands?
There are real reasons to be optimistic. It feels different to me.
But if they win 6 or 7 are we still going to be in the mood to "give" Jones 2022?
If Jones struggles and they only win 6-7 wins then the overwhelming majority of this board will be with you including myself. I’m sorry but I don’t buy that the Giants are going to give Jones two more years. Judge is not going to tolerate turnovers and struggles from the QB position.
I think that the main reason the Giants targeted acquiring additional picks in 2022 was to protect them in the event that Jones does not progress. They now have plenty of ammo to move up in the event that Jones struggles.
JonC has been stating this for many months - Jones will very likely get the next two years to showcase if he's the solution.
Which suggest Judge has also purchased Jones stock for the long term...
That's gonna be a real tough sell if they go 7-10 and are sitting there with two high first rounders.
Indeed.
On the other hand, while it's not quite apple to apple, there are a lot of the same cast of characters at One Giants Way who recently kept going to the well with Eli hoping for another magic run...
So it wouldn't surprise me if they keep going to the well with Jones hoping he finally breaks through.
I hope I'm dead wrong on this and Judge has a sell order on Jones set for 12/31/21 if Jones has an unimpressive year.
He finally has:
A.) legit NFL talent at the WR position
B.) stability in the coaching staff
C.) an improving OL
D.) a running game staring SB
E.) time to work with them and develop chemistry
Buckle up Giants fans - this offense is going to blow up next year.
The expression that illustrates more about who is uttering it than who it is supposedly referring to.
I think that's bullshit. What satisfaction do team skeptics get when their skeptical position is proven right? Mea culpas from those who criticized them? That doesn't happen -- if anything their critics just become more vocal.
I don't know, its just tiresome at this point. I realize this is a Giants forum and our record will likely be dictated by Jones' performance but holy shit, don't you guys want to talk about anything else?
IOW, you don't need Mahomes stats and wow plays if you bring home a title.
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Jones leads then to 10-11 wins in 2021 and I won't have a leg to stand on.
But if they win 6 or 7 are we still going to be in the mood to "give" Jones 2022?
If Jones struggles and they only win 6-7 wins then the overwhelming majority of this board will be with you including myself. I’m sorry but I don’t buy that the Giants are going to give Jones two more years. Judge is not going to tolerate turnovers and struggles from the QB position.
I think that the main reason the Giants targeted acquiring additional picks in 2022 was to protect them in the event that Jones does not progress. They now have plenty of ammo to move up in the event that Jones struggles.
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hope Jones fails just so they're somehow proven correct or to improve their perceived knowledge of the game and team.
I think that's bullshit. What satisfaction do team skeptics get when their skeptical position is proven right? Mea culpas from those who criticized them? That doesn't happen -- if anything their critics just become more vocal.
I know plenty of people that relish in sports misery, to think BBIers are above that is nonsense. They get the satisfaction of being right.
He finally has:
A.) legit NFL talent at the WR position
B.) stability in the coaching staff
C.) an improving OL
D.) a running game staring SB
E.) time to work with them and develop chemistry
Buckle up Giants fans - this offense is going to blow up next year.
Oh, please. You're just relieved we didn't draft Kyle Pitts...
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In comment 15260680 bw in dc said:
JonC has been stating this for many months - Jones will very likely get the next two years to showcase if he's the solution.
Which suggest Judge has also purchased Jones stock for the long term...
That's gonna be a real tough sell if they go 7-10 and are sitting there with two high first rounders.
Indeed.
On the other hand, while it's not quite apple to apple, there are a lot of the same cast of characters at One Giants Way who recently kept going to the well with Eli hoping for another magic run...
So it wouldn't surprise me if they keep going to the well with Jones hoping he finally breaks through.
I hope I'm dead wrong on this and Judge has a sell order on Jones set for 12/31/21 if Jones has an unimpressive year.
I've decided. It sucks. Fire your marketing department (hope the bw that evaluates them isn't the same one who expects to be credible when evaluating the Giants). Go back to Jints Central.
i'll also fully admit that every year about this time I get all excited to be a Giants fan again only to be let down by week 3 of the following season...
So there's that too.
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is going to have a monster year.
He finally has:
A.) legit NFL talent at the WR position
B.) stability in the coaching staff
C.) an improving OL
D.) a running game staring SB
E.) time to work with them and develop chemistry
Buckle up Giants fans - this offense is going to blow up next year.
Oh, please. You're just relieved we didn't draft Kyle Pitts...
I don't know about "monster" but I do feel like this is a more likely outcome than the one positing we put out feelers for tiny Bible Belt school players.
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In comment 15260207 Bricktop said:
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hope Jones fails just so they're somehow proven correct or to improve their perceived knowledge of the game and team.
I think that's bullshit. What satisfaction do team skeptics get when their skeptical position is proven right? Mea culpas from those who criticized them? That doesn't happen -- if anything their critics just become more vocal.
I know plenty of people that relish in sports misery, to think BBIers are above that is nonsense. They get the satisfaction of being right.
So does everyone else. You think if the Giants win 11 games that a whole bunch of posters aren't going to line up and say they called it, and how stupid be and I and others were?
Shit, every time a running back gets a new contract we get a thread saying "See? Running backs do have value". When Darnold flopped there was a ton of revelling from the Britts and FMICs of the world.
And that's fine. If you're right, you're right. Acting like Baghdad Bob for the Giants doesn't make anyone a better fan than the people that are critical.
I'm the type of person that wins a bet with a friend and tells them to keep the money, just buy me a beer next time we go out. I really don't care much about being right when it comes to sports outside of picking good enough players to win fantasy.
I'm the type of person that wins a bet with a friend and tells them to keep the money, just buy me a beer next time we go out. I really don't care much about being right when it comes to sports outside of picking good enough players to win fantasy.
I want Daniel Jones to win MVP and the Giants to go undefeated on the way to the title. That's what I want, and I'm sure what we all want.
But I find the fantasy "Why not us?" conversations to be horrendous.
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In comment 15260710 santacruzom said:
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In comment 15260207 Bricktop said:
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hope Jones fails just so they're somehow proven correct or to improve their perceived knowledge of the game and team.
I think that's bullshit. What satisfaction do team skeptics get when their skeptical position is proven right? Mea culpas from those who criticized them? That doesn't happen -- if anything their critics just become more vocal.
I know plenty of people that relish in sports misery, to think BBIers are above that is nonsense. They get the satisfaction of being right.
So does everyone else. You think if the Giants win 11 games that a whole bunch of posters aren't going to line up and say they called it, and how stupid be and I and others were?
Shit, every time a running back gets a new contract we get a thread saying "See? Running backs do have value". When Darnold flopped there was a ton of revelling from the Britts and FMICs of the world.
And that's fine. If you're right, you're right. Acting like Baghdad Bob for the Giants doesn't make anyone a better fan than the people that are critical.
Waves hand.
I promise you that if Jones stinks it up I will be begging for his replacement. By taking the position that he is being put into a position to succeed and expecting him to show results puts me in a position to reasonably bail if he fails to meet expectations.
My commentary on Darnold is almost exclusively reserved for posters who claimed not picking Darnold was a "fireable offense" and who have whined about the Barkley pick since 2018, as if picking Darnold would have us in a more favorable position.
I rarely, if ever delight in player's failing. My comments are almost always directed at the hot takes and ridiculous statements displayed on these pages daily.
My commentary on Darnold is almost exclusively reserved for posters who claimed not picking Darnold was a "fireable offense" and who have whined about the Barkley pick since 2018, as if picking Darnold would have us in a more favorable position.
I rarely, if ever delight in player's failing. My comments are almost always directed at the hot takes and ridiculous statements displayed on these pages daily.
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In comment 15260716 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15260710 santacruzom said:
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In comment 15260207 Bricktop said:
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hope Jones fails just so they're somehow proven correct or to improve their perceived knowledge of the game and team.
I think that's bullshit. What satisfaction do team skeptics get when their skeptical position is proven right? Mea culpas from those who criticized them? That doesn't happen -- if anything their critics just become more vocal.
I know plenty of people that relish in sports misery, to think BBIers are above that is nonsense. They get the satisfaction of being right.
So does everyone else. You think if the Giants win 11 games that a whole bunch of posters aren't going to line up and say they called it, and how stupid be and I and others were?
Shit, every time a running back gets a new contract we get a thread saying "See? Running backs do have value". When Darnold flopped there was a ton of revelling from the Britts and FMICs of the world.
And that's fine. If you're right, you're right. Acting like Baghdad Bob for the Giants doesn't make anyone a better fan than the people that are critical.
You can be critical of the Giants and not be treated like a pariah here.
Waves hand.
I promise you that if Jones stinks it up I will be begging for his replacement. By taking the position that he is being put into a position to succeed and expecting him to show results puts me in a position to reasonably bail if he fails to meet expectations.
These are almost all moot arguments. If Jones stinks it up almost everyone on this site will be begging for his replacement.
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In comment 15260728 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15260716 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15260710 santacruzom said:
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In comment 15260207 Bricktop said:
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hope Jones fails just so they're somehow proven correct or to improve their perceived knowledge of the game and team.
I think that's bullshit. What satisfaction do team skeptics get when their skeptical position is proven right? Mea culpas from those who criticized them? That doesn't happen -- if anything their critics just become more vocal.
I know plenty of people that relish in sports misery, to think BBIers are above that is nonsense. They get the satisfaction of being right.
So does everyone else. You think if the Giants win 11 games that a whole bunch of posters aren't going to line up and say they called it, and how stupid be and I and others were?
Shit, every time a running back gets a new contract we get a thread saying "See? Running backs do have value". When Darnold flopped there was a ton of revelling from the Britts and FMICs of the world.
And that's fine. If you're right, you're right. Acting like Baghdad Bob for the Giants doesn't make anyone a better fan than the people that are critical.
You can be critical of the Giants and not be treated like a pariah here.
Waves hand.
I promise you that if Jones stinks it up I will be begging for his replacement. By taking the position that he is being put into a position to succeed and expecting him to show results puts me in a position to reasonably bail if he fails to meet expectations.
These are almost all moot arguments. If Jones stinks it up almost everyone on this site will be begging for his replacement.
I don't know. They're not begging for it now. If they felt that way why weren't people clamoring for Fields to be the pick?
Why can't that be pointed out? Reveling in it? No. Counterpoint? Yes.
If you can't see that, I doubt you either ever will or you're just purposely obtuse.
Just like every day we get dissertations on how much Jones sucks.
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personally? No i won't but yeah there will be plenty of people that will. But isn't that what you should want to happen?
I'm the type of person that wins a bet with a friend and tells them to keep the money, just buy me a beer next time we go out. I really don't care much about being right when it comes to sports outside of picking good enough players to win fantasy.
I want Daniel Jones to win MVP and the Giants to go undefeated on the way to the title. That's what I want, and I'm sure what we all want.
But I find the fantasy "Why not us?" conversations to be horrendous.
I can't tell you what to do, but approaching sport without even a shred of mysticism absolutely baffles me. You know you have no control over any of it, right (I know you know this)?
We haven't been very good but wanting evidence to back up how you root is kinda bizarre to me especially in a league with this much turnover. Outside of the 4 or 5 teams with elite QB's the NFL is very much in play for any number of teams to ascend and make noise.
So yeah, why not us?
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In comment 15260716 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15260710 santacruzom said:
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In comment 15260207 Bricktop said:
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hope Jones fails just so they're somehow proven correct or to improve their perceived knowledge of the game and team.
I think that's bullshit. What satisfaction do team skeptics get when their skeptical position is proven right? Mea culpas from those who criticized them? That doesn't happen -- if anything their critics just become more vocal.
I know plenty of people that relish in sports misery, to think BBIers are above that is nonsense. They get the satisfaction of being right.
So does everyone else. You think if the Giants win 11 games that a whole bunch of posters aren't going to line up and say they called it, and how stupid be and I and others were?
Shit, every time a running back gets a new contract we get a thread saying "See? Running backs do have value". When Darnold flopped there was a ton of revelling from the Britts and FMICs of the world.
And that's fine. If you're right, you're right. Acting like Baghdad Bob for the Giants doesn't make anyone a better fan than the people that are critical.
You can be critical of the Giants and not be treated like a pariah here.
Waves hand.
I promise you that if Jones stinks it up I will be begging for his replacement. By taking the position that he is being put into a position to succeed and expecting him to show results puts me in a position to reasonably bail if he fails to meet expectations.
It is not at all outlandish to think if Jones stinks it up that many posters on the board will still be hedging against replacing him.
Many will point to contributing factors, variables that came into play whether unforeseen or not, or alternative areas to blame. They will point to his 3-4 better games moreso than numerous bad ones and suggest give him another year.
Not saying I think Jones will stink it up at all. But if he does, a fairly large contingency here will bring out the excuses. And you can bank on that.
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Jones leads then to 10-11 wins in 2021 and I won't have a leg to stand on.
But if they win 6 or 7 are we still going to be in the mood to "give" Jones 2022?
JonC has been stating this for many months - Jones will very likely get the next two years to showcase if he's the solution.
Which suggest Judge has also purchased Jones stock for the long term...
No it doesnt dip shit. We HAVE to pay him for 2 more years regardless.
How much shitty football do we have to watch before it's ok to call it shitty? Where's the line?
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In comment 15260732 UConn4523 said:
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personally? No i won't but yeah there will be plenty of people that will. But isn't that what you should want to happen?
I'm the type of person that wins a bet with a friend and tells them to keep the money, just buy me a beer next time we go out. I really don't care much about being right when it comes to sports outside of picking good enough players to win fantasy.
I want Daniel Jones to win MVP and the Giants to go undefeated on the way to the title. That's what I want, and I'm sure what we all want.
But I find the fantasy "Why not us?" conversations to be horrendous.
I can't tell you what to do, but approaching sport without even a shred of mysticism absolutely baffles me. You know you have no control over any of it, right (I know you know this)?
We haven't been very good but wanting evidence to back up how you root is kinda bizarre to me especially in a league with this much turnover. Outside of the 4 or 5 teams with elite QB's the NFL is very much in play for any number of teams to ascend and make noise.
So yeah, why not us?
Why not us?!
I don't want DG and JJ to think like this...but it is no problem for armchair QBs (fans) to think this way.
There are other teams that have great quarterbacks and play great football. Why can't the Giants?
How much shitty football do we have to watch before it's ok to call it shitty? Where's the line?
It is unreasonable, IMO, to say what Jones is/isn't/or ever will be at this juncture. It is incomplete.
Do you know how many great players in NFL history wouldn't exist if they were written off after two seasons?
It was to gratefulhead, and it exists today so it can exist tomorrow.
How much shitty football do we have to watch before it's ok to call it shitty? Where's the line?
I think you can call it shitty. The problem is its all you do these days. There's so many other threads on BBI and for some reason you gravitate heavily towards Jones threads to make the exact same points you always have. Aren't you bored of it yet? (insert "i'm bored of the Giants losing here").
There was a time where adding a WR with video game like moves (along with a fat trade down), a pass rushing prospect better than we've seen in ages, and trying to make the secondary elite would have wet your whistle, but I guess not.
For some reason you NEED everyone to call the team shitty often and repeatedly, no idea why.
How about the guy calling them dipshit a few posts above.
Close enough?
There are other teams that have great quarterbacks and play great football. Why can't the Giants?
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15-33 is definitive. Jones's 8-18 record as a starter is definitive. Jones has only played 7 good game games out of a possible 32... that's definitive.
How much shitty football do we have to watch before it's ok to call it shitty? Where's the line?
It is unreasonable, IMO, to say what Jones is/isn't/or ever will be at this juncture. It is incomplete.
Do you know how many great players in NFL history wouldn't exist if they were written off after two seasons?
Let's see, and just for quarterbacks:
Bart Starr took five years to at least be a full-time starter under Vince Lombardi
Terry Bradshaw took until his sixth season to win his job full-time
Phil Simms took until his sixth season to kick the injury bug and was still getting booed in the magical 1986 season
Tom Brady took his 4th season (3rd as a starter) to be one of the top quarterbacks
Eli Manning took 4 seasons for people to not boo him on a consistent basis
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15-33 is definitive. Jones's 8-18 record as a starter is definitive. Jones has only played 7 good game games out of a possible 32... that's definitive.
How much shitty football do we have to watch before it's ok to call it shitty? Where's the line?
It is unreasonable, IMO, to say what Jones is/isn't/or ever will be at this juncture. It is incomplete.
Do you know how many great players in NFL history wouldn't exist if they were written off after two seasons?
Can you name any quarterback in the last ten years that started as poorly as Jones and turned it around to be a great player?
You can't, because it hasn't happened. But there are many that started out as poorly and didn't work out.
And be honest - if Jones were playing for the Eagles or some other team would BBI be saying he's got a shot at greatness? No fucking way.
There are other teams that have great quarterbacks and play great football. Why can't the Giants?
Because right after that Giants QB wins the MVP, you will look to trade him and start over.
Because you like to completely ignore the 1st season Jones had and focus on all of the negativity around his 2nd year while dismissing incredible amount of adversity he faced.
What other teams with QBs on their rookie deals currently are looking at new QBs? How is that Lamat Jackson trade working out for you?
You are so entirely full of shit. You throw a bunch of theories up against the wall,oneor 2 works out (Odell and to a lesser extent Shockey), but you never have to deal with the stuff that tends not to. You brag about right about 2 things constantly, make ridiculous claims that amount to nothing more than media fodder and you shit on a QB that you really know nothing about.
Im sure you would be a really fun youth sports coach.
If Jones is a good QB we will win games and make the playoffs under him as long as the rest of the team isn't shitty (ie Defense falling off a cliff like they did after 2016).
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15-33 is definitive. Jones's 8-18 record as a starter is definitive. Jones has only played 7 good game games out of a possible 32... that's definitive.
How much shitty football do we have to watch before it's ok to call it shitty? Where's the line?
I think you can call it shitty. The problem is its all you do these days. There's so many other threads on BBI and for some reason you gravitate heavily towards Jones threads to make the exact same points you always have. Aren't you bored of it yet? (insert "i'm bored of the Giants losing here").
There was a time where adding a WR with video game like moves (along with a fat trade down), a pass rushing prospect better than we've seen in ages, and trying to make the secondary elite would have wet your whistle, but I guess not.
For some reason you NEED everyone to call the team shitty often and repeatedly, no idea why.
No, I don't get bored with it. And neither do other posters judging by the number of Jones threads that get started (not by me).
As for this draft, it was all about that Chicago first rounder. I'm pinning my hopes on that being a sign that the organization is open to moving on from Jones after next season. Compared to that, Toney or Ojulari matter much less for the long term.
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In comment 15260795 Go Terps said:
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15-33 is definitive. Jones's 8-18 record as a starter is definitive. Jones has only played 7 good game games out of a possible 32... that's definitive.
How much shitty football do we have to watch before it's ok to call it shitty? Where's the line?
It is unreasonable, IMO, to say what Jones is/isn't/or ever will be at this juncture. It is incomplete.
Do you know how many great players in NFL history wouldn't exist if they were written off after two seasons?
Can you name any quarterback in the last ten years that started as poorly as Jones and turned it around to be a great player?
You can't, because it hasn't happened. But there are many that started out as poorly and didn't work out.
And be honest - if Jones were playing for the Eagles or some other team would BBI be saying he's got a shot at greatness? No fucking way.
Phil Simms? Josh Allen? Rich Gannon?
So does everyone else. You think if the Giants win 11 games that a whole bunch of posters aren't going to line up and say they called it, and how stupid be and I and others were?
Shit, every time a running back gets a new contract we get a thread saying "See? Running backs do have value". When Darnold flopped there was a ton of revelling from the Britts and FMICs of the world.
And that's fine. If you're right, you're right. Acting like Baghdad Bob for the Giants doesn't make anyone a better fan than the people that are critical.
There are absolutely quite a few scorekeepers at BBI. And they will certainly be looking to settle some scores if this thing gets turned around this year.
Which is fine. I have always accepted that and understand that being in the BBI mainstream is always the safest place for many BBIers.
However, while I know it won't stop, I do find it more than a little irritating this "narrative" that posters like you and I are more interested in being right than the Giants winning. I'm actually more interested in why the guys who are in charge of building this team have been so wrong so often.
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In comment 15260795 Go Terps said:
Quote:
15-33 is definitive. Jones's 8-18 record as a starter is definitive. Jones has only played 7 good game games out of a possible 32... that's definitive.
How much shitty football do we have to watch before it's ok to call it shitty? Where's the line?
It is unreasonable, IMO, to say what Jones is/isn't/or ever will be at this juncture. It is incomplete.
Do you know how many great players in NFL history wouldn't exist if they were written off after two seasons?
Can you name any quarterback in the last ten years that started as poorly as Jones and turned it around to be a great player?
You can't, because it hasn't happened. But there are many that started out as poorly and didn't work out.
And be honest - if Jones were playing for the Eagles or some other team would BBI be saying he's got a shot at greatness? No fucking way.
Define poor:
In 2018, in just 12 games, Daniel Jones threw for 24 TD's, 12 INT's, 3000 plus yards, and 61.9 percent completion percentage. He also ran for nearly 300 yards and 2 TD's. So 26 TD's total with 3300 yards total in just 13 games.
Did he fumble a lot, yes. But he was also sacked 38 times.
So define poor, please.
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So does everyone else. You think if the Giants win 11 games that a whole bunch of posters aren't going to line up and say they called it, and how stupid be and I and others were?
Shit, every time a running back gets a new contract we get a thread saying "See? Running backs do have value". When Darnold flopped there was a ton of revelling from the Britts and FMICs of the world.
And that's fine. If you're right, you're right. Acting like Baghdad Bob for the Giants doesn't make anyone a better fan than the people that are critical.
There are absolutely quite a few scorekeepers at BBI. And they will certainly be looking to settle some scores if this thing gets turned around this year.
Which is fine. I have always accepted that and understand that being in the BBI mainstream is always the safest place for many BBIers.
However, while I know it won't stop, I do find it more than a little irritating this "narrative" that posters like you and I are more interested in being right than the Giants winning. I'm actually more interested in why the guys who are in charge of building this team have been so wrong so often.
Ahhhhhh.....andhere begins the capitulations!
Never change bw....despite nobody enjoying your posts.
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So does everyone else. You think if the Giants win 11 games that a whole bunch of posters aren't going to line up and say they called it, and how stupid be and I and others were?
Shit, every time a running back gets a new contract we get a thread saying "See? Running backs do have value". When Darnold flopped there was a ton of revelling from the Britts and FMICs of the world.
And that's fine. If you're right, you're right. Acting like Baghdad Bob for the Giants doesn't make anyone a better fan than the people that are critical.
There are absolutely quite a few scorekeepers at BBI. And they will certainly be looking to settle some scores if this thing gets turned around this year.
Which is fine. I have always accepted that and understand that being in the BBI mainstream is always the safest place for many BBIers.
However, while I know it won't stop, I do find it more than a little irritating this "narrative" that posters like you and I are more interested in being right than the Giants winning. I'm actually more interested in why the guys who are in charge of building this team have been so wrong so often.
Where were you between 2007 and 2012 bw? Why did you not ever post during those years? You posted a decade before. You posted a decade since. Why did you disappear during that stretch?
JonC has been stating this for many months - Jones will very likely get the next two years to showcase if he's the solution.
Which suggest Judge has also purchased Jones stock for the long term...
No it doesnt dip shit. We HAVE to pay him for 2 more years regardless.
I don't care about paying Jones based on the contract and the cap hit. I care about continuing to play him if he continues to underperform.
So yeah, he's got a lot to prove.
How much shitty football do we have to watch before it's ok to call it shitty? Where's the line?
Those numbers are partially real. You need to adjust for the excuses variable - roster, injuries, weather, OCs, coaching, division, schedule, prior GMs, drops, etc.
So yeah, he's got a lot to prove.
And we were a terrible team so it was evenly matched.
I never said he didn't have a lot to prove.
Terry Bradshaw took until his sixth season to win his job full-time
Phil Simms took until his sixth season to kick the injury bug and was still getting booed in the magical 1986 season
Tom Brady took his 4th season (3rd as a starter) to be one of the top quarterbacks
Eli Manning took 4 seasons for people to not boo him on a consistent basis
All of those guys, save Eli, began their career in a very different NFL. And Eli had a unique and unusual career path that I don't expect to see anyone else duplicate.
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Bart Starr took five years to at least be a full-time starter under Vince Lombardi
Terry Bradshaw took until his sixth season to win his job full-time
Phil Simms took until his sixth season to kick the injury bug and was still getting booed in the magical 1986 season
Tom Brady took his 4th season (3rd as a starter) to be one of the top quarterbacks
Eli Manning took 4 seasons for people to not boo him on a consistent basis
All of those guys, save Eli, began their career in a very different NFL. And Eli had a unique and unusual career path that I don't expect to see anyone else duplicate.
How about Drew Brees? Drafted in 2001. By 2004, written off.
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In comment 15260809 Angel Eyes said:
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Bart Starr took five years to at least be a full-time starter under Vince Lombardi
Terry Bradshaw took until his sixth season to win his job full-time
Phil Simms took until his sixth season to kick the injury bug and was still getting booed in the magical 1986 season
Tom Brady took his 4th season (3rd as a starter) to be one of the top quarterbacks
Eli Manning took 4 seasons for people to not boo him on a consistent basis
All of those guys, save Eli, began their career in a very different NFL. And Eli had a unique and unusual career path that I don't expect to see anyone else duplicate.
How about Drew Brees? Drafted in 2001. By 2004, written off.
I forgot about him to be honest.
Quote:
15-33 is definitive. Jones's 8-18 record as a starter is definitive. Jones has only played 7 good game games out of a possible 32... that's definitive.
How much shitty football do we have to watch before it's ok to call it shitty? Where's the line?
Those numbers are partially real. You need to adjust for the excuses variable - roster, injuries, weather, OCs, coaching, division, schedule, prior GMs, drops, etc.
You actually do need to adjust for it, how much is the question.
You guys seems smart enough to understand that pretty much none of us think Jones is going to be this elite QB so that means he's going to need help.
Its almost like you are arguing over something we are in 90% agreement on, its just that last 10% requires repeated posts on the same thing to really drive the point home.
I did not expect Jones to play that well with the WR's we put on the field last year, especially after Barkley went down. I'm sure you didn't either, so doesn't that mean he does in fact need more to work with?
Where were you between 2007 and 2012 bw? Why did you not ever post during those years? You posted a decade before. You posted a decade since. Why did you disappear during that stretch?
Does it really matter?
I've explained it in the past. I got very consumed with my career. I joined a start-up healthcare company, was part of the leadership team, and was tasked with getting the company to the point where we could liquidate and sell to a buyer. So that was my focus and basically tabled everything. And almost to the point where it was unhealthy. Until we finally sold...
Both were in the playoffs in their 3rd season.
Not just a troll. But a "professional" troll. JFC.
Can you be more boring?
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Where were you between 2007 and 2012 bw? Why did you not ever post during those years? You posted a decade before. You posted a decade since. Why did you disappear during that stretch?
Does it really matter?
I've explained it in the past. I got very consumed with my career. I joined a start-up healthcare company, was part of the leadership team, and was tasked with getting the company to the point where we could liquidate and sell to a buyer. So that was my focus and basically tabled everything. And almost to the point where it was unhealthy. Until we finally sold...
That's just really a crazy coincidence, you know?
I mean, you literally bitched about this team for nearly 10 years, then the year they got good and won the Superbowl you disappeared, never to return until nearly a year after winning their second Superbowl, when they went in the tank and you have never taken a break since.
Just so weird. Guess that's one of those "excuse variables" you have to account for, right?
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In comment 15260795 Go Terps said:
Quote:
15-33 is definitive. Jones's 8-18 record as a starter is definitive. Jones has only played 7 good game games out of a possible 32... that's definitive.
How much shitty football do we have to watch before it's ok to call it shitty? Where's the line?
It is unreasonable, IMO, to say what Jones is/isn't/or ever will be at this juncture. It is incomplete.
Do you know how many great players in NFL history wouldn't exist if they were written off after two seasons?
Let's see, and just for quarterbacks:
Bart Starr took five years to at least be a full-time starter under Vince Lombardi
Terry Bradshaw took until his sixth season to win his job full-time
Phil Simms took until his sixth season to kick the injury bug and was still getting booed in the magical 1986 season
Tom Brady took his 4th season (3rd as a starter) to be one of the top quarterbacks
Eli Manning took 4 seasons for people to not boo him on a consistent basis
Tom Brady? In his first season as a starter Brady made the pro bowl, had an 11-3 record and won the Super Bowl MVP. In the next season, he led the entire league in touchdown passes.
Probably safe to remove him from your list.
Quote:
You are a professional troll. Anybody that's been here a decent amount of time knows it, too.
Not just a troll. But a "professional" troll. JFC.
Can you be more boring?
Don't care about the personal pissing match but if there's one thing that's boring its Daniel Jones threads.
I'll say it again, should fans be pretty excited heading into 2021 with what looks like a killer draft and exciting FA signings? Would it be fun to discuss those or no?
But keep doing what you do - keeping score.
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In comment 15260801 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 15260795 Go Terps said:
Quote:
15-33 is definitive. Jones's 8-18 record as a starter is definitive. Jones has only played 7 good game games out of a possible 32... that's definitive.
How much shitty football do we have to watch before it's ok to call it shitty? Where's the line?
It is unreasonable, IMO, to say what Jones is/isn't/or ever will be at this juncture. It is incomplete.
Do you know how many great players in NFL history wouldn't exist if they were written off after two seasons?
Let's see, and just for quarterbacks:
Bart Starr took five years to at least be a full-time starter under Vince Lombardi
Terry Bradshaw took until his sixth season to win his job full-time
Phil Simms took until his sixth season to kick the injury bug and was still getting booed in the magical 1986 season
Tom Brady took his 4th season (3rd as a starter) to be one of the top quarterbacks
Eli Manning took 4 seasons for people to not boo him on a consistent basis
Tom Brady? In his first season as a starter Brady made the pro bowl, had an 11-3 record and won the Super Bowl MVP. In the next season, he led the entire league in touchdown passes.
Probably safe to remove him from your list.
My point is that Brady didn't have stellar numbers in his first year; 18 touchdowns, 12 interceptions, 12 fumbles; that's only 6 more touchdowns than interceptions. In '02, the next season his touchdowns were double his interceptions but the Patriots missed the playoffs.
Surely as a Giants fan and a 20 year contributor to BBI, that thought would have crossed your mind?
And again, it bears repeating that Jones's big benefit was supposed to be he was as pro-ready as could be. He wasn't drafted for any elite traits (like Allen was).
And to answer Britt's question about defining poor:
- 8-18 as a starter
- team has struggled to score 20 points per game
- led league both years in fumbles
- poor AY/A both years
- in only 7 of Jones's 32 possible starts did he post a passer rating above league average
What else do you want?
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In comment 15260832 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Where were you between 2007 and 2012 bw? Why did you not ever post during those years? You posted a decade before. You posted a decade since. Why did you disappear during that stretch?
Does it really matter?
I've explained it in the past. I got very consumed with my career. I joined a start-up healthcare company, was part of the leadership team, and was tasked with getting the company to the point where we could liquidate and sell to a buyer. So that was my focus and basically tabled everything. And almost to the point where it was unhealthy. Until we finally sold...
That's just really a crazy coincidence, you know?
I mean, you literally bitched about this team for nearly 10 years, then the year they got good and won the Superbowl you disappeared, never to return until nearly a year after winning their second Superbowl, when they went in the tank and you have never taken a break since.
Just so weird. Guess that's one of those "excuse variables" you have to account for, right?
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You are a professional troll. Anybody that's been here a decent amount of time knows it, too.
Not just a troll. But a "professional" troll. JFC.
Can you be more boring?
Can you? You say the same thing every single day
And again, it bears repeating that Jones's big benefit was supposed to be he was as pro-ready as could be. He wasn't drafted for any elite traits (like Allen was).
And to answer Britt's question about defining poor:
- 8-18 as a starter
- team has struggled to score 20 points per game
- led league both years in fumbles
- poor AY/A both years
- in only 7 of Jones's 32 possible starts did he post a passer rating above league average
What else do you want?
Don't care about the personal pissing match but if there's one thing that's boring its Daniel Jones threads.
I'll say it again, should fans be pretty excited heading into 2021 with what looks like a killer draft and exciting FA signings? Would it be fun to discuss those or no?
I have spoken very positively about the draft and some of the free agency acquisitions. Naturally, those get ignored because I jump onto a thread about Jones and cast my doubts.
Look, I happen to find the Jones piece in trying to get to a successful '21 (and beyond) one of the most interesting topics. So much hinges on him being able to deliver. And it's a real mystery, based on what he has done so far, if he has the goods to deliver on that...
Can you? You say the same thing every single day
Okay, guilty. But for those of us who post here regularly, who doesn't basically say the same thing over and over on these topics?
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In comment 15260839 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
You are a professional troll. Anybody that's been here a decent amount of time knows it, too.
Not just a troll. But a "professional" troll. JFC.
Can you be more boring?
Don't care about the personal pissing match but if there's one thing that's boring its Daniel Jones threads.
I'll say it again, should fans be pretty excited heading into 2021 with what looks like a killer draft and exciting FA signings? Would it be fun to discuss those or no?
No one's telling you not to. Gidie just started a thread about the Giants being a playoff caliber team. I'm sure there will be plenty of "why not us?" there.
Gettleman, Judge, Jones, draft picks. That's where my head's at because I'm not expecting a good season in the field.
Quote:
Don't care about the personal pissing match but if there's one thing that's boring its Daniel Jones threads.
I'll say it again, should fans be pretty excited heading into 2021 with what looks like a killer draft and exciting FA signings? Would it be fun to discuss those or no?
I have spoken very positively about the draft and some of the free agency acquisitions. Naturally, those get ignored because I jump onto a thread about Jones and cast my doubts.
Look, I happen to find the Jones piece in trying to get to a successful '21 (and beyond) one of the most interesting topics. So much hinges on him being able to deliver. And it's a real mystery, based on what he has done so far, if he has the goods to deliver on that...
It doesn't come across that way. The interest seems to be making sure anyone that like Jones or thinks he can have a good year, knows that he hasn't had a great start to his career and likely won't ever be good.
I have seen you other the other threads a bit, its nice to actually talk to people about something else. But any and all Jones threads become a slog. As interesting as this topic might be, nothing new is really discussed.
Gettleman, Judge, Jones, draft picks. That's where my head's at because I'm not expecting a good season in the field.
Do you have any self awareness at all? Do you realize that you come into every single positive thread people make and remind them that DG and Jones suck, btw Mara does too. So that hope they have, they should flush it down the toilet and join you in your misery.
It gets old and people are attacking you for it.
If Jones needs another season to prove he is the QB going forward, I think it is likely we see another trade of a 1st round pick next year so that they have enough draft capital to get the QB they want in 2023...
Even if Jones fails, I'm not sure the Giants pick a QB next year. Depends on who is available.
With that said, there has to be a sense of urgency right now with all the FA contracts that went out. There is a limited window of effectiveness for those guys and if you don't have a worthy QB, you have a problem. That is QB Hell...
If he can take the big step up, the Giants are far better off.
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To me the 21 season is really only about one thing: how is the club being run between Gettleman and Judge, and how will that be reflected in the 22 draft after Jones posts (I think - for the sensitive) another bad season?
Gettleman, Judge, Jones, draft picks. That's where my head's at because I'm not expecting a good season in the field.
The rest of us are expecting an improved season on the field, it is why you are experiencing more resistance than normal.
Do you have any self awareness at all? Do you realize that you come into every single positive thread people make and remind them that DG and Jones suck, btw Mara does too. So that hope they have, they should flush it down the toilet and join you in your misery.
It gets old and people are attacking you for it.
Expect whatever you want. I'm not telling you not to.
The vast majority of posts on this board are positive...many unrealistically so. There are plenty of threads about how good this team is going to be. I'm fully aware of those that don't agree with me. You can guess how much that bothers me.
And no, i'm not saying Jones is going to the Hall of Fame, so don't try and spin that.
What I'm saying is that you literally don't have the ability or mental capacity to factor in the fact that the TEAM around Jones was largely terrible in 2019, improved a lot in 2020 due to coaching and personnel, and they are still building.
Joe Burrow went 2-7-1 to start his career. Is he a bad quarterback? Drew Brees went 10-17 to start his career, was he a bad quarterback? Stafford started 17-28 in his career, is he a bad quarterback? You've mentioned that you'd like to trade for him. Deshaun Watson is 28-25. Is he a bad quarterback?
Jesus dude. Give it up already. The points that you make don't make any actual sense.
And again, it bears repeating that Jones's big benefit was supposed to be he was as pro-ready as could be. He wasn't drafted for any elite traits (like Allen was).
And to answer Britt's question about defining poor:
- 8-18 as a starter
- team has struggled to score 20 points per game
- led league both years in fumbles
- poor AY/A both years
- in only 7 of Jones's 32 possible starts did he post a passer rating above league average
What else do you want?
Ah OK, so basically what you are saying is "well THESE examples make sense, but basically any other example that runs counter to my argument doesn't make sense." You are full of shit man.
And no, the transition to the pros isn't "smoother" now. There is no evidence of that. Playing quarterback is still as hard as it ever was.
Bart Starr took five years to at least be a full-time starter under Vince Lombardi
Terry Bradshaw took until his sixth season to win his job full-time
Phil Simms took until his sixth season to kick the injury bug and was still getting booed in the magical 1986 season
Tom Brady took his 4th season (3rd as a starter) to be one of the top quarterbacks
Eli Manning took 4 seasons for people to not boo him on a consistent basis
Tom Brady? In his first season as a starter Brady made the pro bowl, had an 11-3 record and won the Super Bowl MVP. In the next season, he led the entire league in touchdown passes.
Probably safe to remove him from your list.
My point is that Brady didn't have stellar numbers in his first year; 18 touchdowns, 12 interceptions, 12 fumbles; that's only 6 more touchdowns than interceptions. In '02, the next season his touchdowns were double his interceptions but the Patriots missed the playoffs.
Its not a good point though. Look what he accomplished and the awards he personally received. I could debate the other ones for different reasons, but having Brady on your list is simply egregious.
There are other teams that have great quarterbacks and play great football. Why can't the Giants?
Because for the last time, you cannot be just instantly great when you are scrapping and rebuilding your entire fucking roster dude. And now that is is mostly complete aside from some positions that we likely need an upgrade at, we all should expect playoff football.
Jesus christ. I'm not sure if you're married or what but living with you would give me a fucking ulcer. Your expectations are wildly off.
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In comment 15260911 Go Terps said:
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To me the 21 season is really only about one thing: how is the club being run between Gettleman and Judge, and how will that be reflected in the 22 draft after Jones posts (I think - for the sensitive) another bad season?
Gettleman, Judge, Jones, draft picks. That's where my head's at because I'm not expecting a good season in the field.
The rest of us are expecting an improved season on the field, it is why you are experiencing more resistance than normal.
Do you have any self awareness at all? Do you realize that you come into every single positive thread people make and remind them that DG and Jones suck, btw Mara does too. So that hope they have, they should flush it down the toilet and join you in your misery.
It gets old and people are attacking you for it.
Expect whatever you want. I'm not telling you not to.
The vast majority of posts on this board are positive...many unrealistically so. There are plenty of threads about how good this team is going to be. I'm fully aware of those that don't agree with me. You can guess how much that bothers me.
For example, this upcoming season you should root for the Packers, Bucs, Chiefs, and Bills.
Maybe in 2022 the Giants will be legit contenders and you can come on board again.
Both were in the playoffs in their 3rd season.
I don't know why anybody would have written off Josh Allen at all. He has been the model for what you want out of a developing QB in each of his first 3 seasons.
And recall he made the playoffs in his 2nd season.
If he stays in that scenario, the bigger issue will be not to overpay him. If he's decent/good and we pay him $15-22 million per year (or thereabouts), that's fine. If he's just OK and we pay him Dak money or more, that's a problem.
I'm gonna post on Jones threads, because that's the issue that matters most to where the team is going. It's the most important issue, and it's also the most interesting. I don't find the other things around this team all that interesting...for me it's about Gettleman, Judge, Jones, and those draft picks.
It also brings out some strange arguments. For example, most posters seen to agree that this is a prove it year for Jones. But many are also arguing that he has played well to this point. I don't get that...if he has played well why does he have to prove anything?
There are some serious mental gymnastics going on when discussing Jones. There's also an enormous amount of excuse making - more than I can recall for any other Giants player, which is saying something.
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to prove he's the QB. Giants will add two talents in the first round next year, and at least one of those picks is likely to be top 10. No rushing to draft a QB in '22 unless he's the right QB, another mistake takes us in the second half of the friggin decade with no end in sight.
If Jones needs another season to prove he is the QB going forward, I think it is likely we see another trade of a 1st round pick next year so that they have enough draft capital to get the QB they want in 2023...
Even if Jones fails, I'm not sure the Giants pick a QB next year. Depends on who is available.
With that said, there has to be a sense of urgency right now with all the FA contracts that went out. There is a limited window of effectiveness for those guys and if you don't have a worthy QB, you have a problem. That is QB Hell...
That's not QB Hell. QB Hell would be if Jones was middling at best and then we decided to pay him as a franchise QB.
It also brings out some strange arguments. For example, most posters seen to agree that this is a prove it year for Jones. But many are also arguing that he has played well to this point. I don't get that...if he has played well why does he have to prove anything?
More utter bullshit from you. What posters have said he has played well?
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In comment 15260728 Go Terps said:
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So does everyone else. You think if the Giants win 11 games that a whole bunch of posters aren't going to line up and say they called it, and how stupid be and I and others were?
Shit, every time a running back gets a new contract we get a thread saying "See? Running backs do have value". When Darnold flopped there was a ton of revelling from the Britts and FMICs of the world.
And that's fine. If you're right, you're right. Acting like Baghdad Bob for the Giants doesn't make anyone a better fan than the people that are critical.
There are absolutely quite a few scorekeepers at BBI. And they will certainly be looking to settle some scores if this thing gets turned around this year.
Which is fine. I have always accepted that and understand that being in the BBI mainstream is always the safest place for many BBIers.
However, while I know it won't stop, I do find it more than a little irritating this "narrative" that posters like you and I are more interested in being right than the Giants winning. I'm actually more interested in why the guys who are in charge of building this team have been so wrong so often.
Where were you between 2007 and 2012 bw? Why did you not ever post during those years? You posted a decade before. You posted a decade since. Why did you disappear during that stretch?
He's capable of answering for himself, but...
I am not the institutional memory of this place (I can't even remember where i parked my car at work most days) but I do recall that bw was very clear in explicitly posting that he was taking a break from BBI, particularly at the time he had his first(?) child. I don't think you can ascribe it to not being here because we were successful at that time and he had nothing to say. (I'm pretty sure that he almost always has something to say (even if he really doesn't)).
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It also brings out some strange arguments. For example, most posters seen to agree that this is a prove it year for Jones. But many are also arguing that he has played well to this point. I don't get that...if he has played well why does he have to prove anything?
More utter bullshit from you. What posters have said he has played well?
Well, me for one. I have seen bits and pieces of really good play from him (IMO, I guess), where I thought he was either turning a corner or at least had potential to be a quality or even elite QB. The moniker "Danny Dimes" might be stupid but it didn't come from nothin'.
You list Judge and Gettelman as topics of interest, well, didn't they just sign and draft a bunch of players? In such a team based sport isn't that something that should be interesting? Even if we had Mahomes, shouldn't we want to draft and sign players to help him?
You list Judge and Gettelman as topics of interest, well, didn't they just sign and draft a bunch of players? In such a team based sport isn't that something that should be interesting? Even if we had Mahomes, shouldn't we want to draft and sign players to help him?
If we had Mahomes I'd be all about talking about other issues.
We don't though. We have what I think is a huge minus at QB...as long as that minus is there I don't think much else is going to make a difference.
I think they've improved in drafting and FA since Judge got here, but I don't think that's going to result in more wins. Why?
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"mental gymnastics" is how I interpret any and every thread on this board derailing into the same song and dance about something completely out of any fans control.
You list Judge and Gettelman as topics of interest, well, didn't they just sign and draft a bunch of players? In such a team based sport isn't that something that should be interesting? Even if we had Mahomes, shouldn't we want to draft and sign players to help him?
If we had Mahomes I'd be all about talking about other issues.
We don't though. We have what I think is a huge minus at QB...as long as that minus is there I don't think much else is going to make a difference.
I think they've improved in drafting and FA since Judge got here, but I don't think that's going to result in more wins. Why?
Wait, you don't think Daniel Jones is going to be a good QB?
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In comment 15260911 Go Terps said:
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To me the 21 season is really only about one thing: how is the club being run between Gettleman and Judge, and how will that be reflected in the 22 draft after Jones posts (I think - for the sensitive) another bad season?
Gettleman, Judge, Jones, draft picks. That's where my head's at because I'm not expecting a good season in the field.
The rest of us are expecting an improved season on the field, it is why you are experiencing more resistance than normal.
Do you have any self awareness at all? Do you realize that you come into every single positive thread people make and remind them that DG and Jones suck, btw Mara does too. So that hope they have, they should flush it down the toilet and join you in your misery.
It gets old and people are attacking you for it.
Expect whatever you want. I'm not telling you not to.
The vast majority of posts on this board are positive...many unrealistically so. There are plenty of threads about how good this team is going to be. I'm fully aware of those that don't agree with me. You can guess how much that bothers me.
That’s how most fan sites are. Majority are fan boys, then you have some negative posters, and some middle ground ones. The negative ones get all the attention from the fan boys.
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...than the constant declarations that anyone who is remotely critical is "shitting on the team".
Who has been "remotely critical?'
Remotely is the only way you can be critical.
Covid, you know...
Tip ya waitresses!
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...than the constant declarations that anyone who is remotely critical is "shitting on the team".
Who has been "remotely critical?'
"Shitting on the team" is ambiguous and not what I had in mimd when discussing these posters.
"Vomiting up the same narrative in the absence of any logic that combats prevailing opinions based on the entire status of the other personnel on the roster" is one I take exception to.
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It also brings out some strange arguments. For example, most posters seen to agree that this is a prove it year for Jones. But many are also arguing that he has played well to this point. I don't get that...if he has played well why does he have to prove anything?
More utter bullshit from you. What posters have said he has played well?
Agreed. But Terps has his Sambas on,his Umbros hiked up and he has a bunch of kids he is going to coach into not sucking.
Surely as a Giants fan and a 20 year contributor to BBI, that thought would have crossed your mind?
Jesus, you kept track of that. Man, it must be a eureka moment for you to finally be able to pull that detail out of your back pocket.
You list Judge and Gettelman as topics of interest, well, didn't they just sign and draft a bunch of players? In such a team based sport isn't that something that should be interesting? Even if we had Mahomes, shouldn't we want to draft and sign players to help him?
Mahomes certainly can't win a Super Bowl by himself; Super Bowl 55 was evidence of that. Without a good offensive line to keep him clean (including Mike Remmers, someone we cut after 2019 as their left tackle) the Buccaneers gave him trouble for the entire game; they actually set the record for most pressures by a single team.
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Can you? You say the same thing every single day
Okay, guilty. But for those of us who post here regularly, who doesn't basically say the same thing over and over on these topics?
?????
What a weird thing to come back with. I dont. There are plenty of others who discuss things and walk back their theories when confronted with better logic. I can mention names but choose not to. BB '56 is one that I see who does it regularly and yet doesnt mind me saying he does. There has been a ton of DJ fans that have given him a pass for '20 but are less likely to do that going forward.
This "woe is me" front you arr trying to shroud yourself in is pretty beat.
Calmly telling people that they're not "telling anyone what to think or expect..."
...after telling everyone what to think and what to expect.
Believing that coming into a room full of what they call fanboys (they have no respect for fanboys), who are talking about how good things look and telling them that their opinions are wrong and that the QB is and always will be, bad.
Then claiming to just be discussing the team or making the conversation less boring.
Which ultimately means...making the conversation about themselves.
And finally, claiming "both sides" and playing the victim.
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and just "yay, the Giants won the Superbowl, can you believe it?". Either Superbowl?
Surely as a Giants fan and a 20 year contributor to BBI, that thought would have crossed your mind?
Jesus, you kept track of that. Man, it must be a eureka moment for you to finally be able to pull that detail out of your back pocket.
Thays a silly take. Bw is one of the most frequent posters on the board and yet he was a ghost when we won the whole fucking thing. How do you not notice that kind of silence?
Show me Im wrong. Prove it.
The Giants have improved the roster dramatically
and he has enough talent around him now to succeed.
I'm betting he will.
This is true only if the OL improves significantly. Without a competent OL, we are going nowhere, and it will not be on DJ.
What doesn't help is thinking Terps is being "remotely critical." He's inventing scenarios that have not happened yet to make his arguments about Jones and the Giants, that run counter to basically every other point that he makes or player he wants to bring in instead.
But yeah, just because we want to hold bullshit posts accountable means we think he's "shitting on the team." Posters can shit on the team all they want. It's when they are hypocritical and lazy with their arguments, that gets me to respond. Saying things like "I don't think Daniel Jones is good" is perfectly fine with me. But when you say things like "He's 7-18 as a starter" (or whatever it is) - then you are just proving that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Football isn't a one man sport. It's not even a 5 man sport. If you aren't willing to wait for the draft picks to develop, for the coaching staff to get their feet wet for 10 minutes with this franchise, for the roster to improve around the QB to legitimately see what he can bring to the table, for free agency signings to come into
play, then I just don't know what to tell you. If you think Jones sucks after 24 starts on a mostly bad offense, then great, certainly within reason to have that opinion.
Everyone was up in their fucking arms about the Beckham trade and the Williams trade. The same people lost their collective shit when they picked Jones, hell some even did it with Dexter Lawrence and Andrew Thomas. Some think that Barkley doesn't help the team win games.
This is all to say that you really can't fix what some people perceive to be reality. We can sit and argue all day on a message board about the Gettleman Giants and how they've been taking 10 years to be good. But the reality is that they started over with a new quarterback, a new coach, and new players over the last 2 years, and for whatever reason, some fans are just ready to call it a day.
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In comment 15260875 Britt in VA said:
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and just "yay, the Giants won the Superbowl, can you believe it?". Either Superbowl?
Surely as a Giants fan and a 20 year contributor to BBI, that thought would have crossed your mind?
Jesus, you kept track of that. Man, it must be a eureka moment for you to finally be able to pull that detail out of your back pocket.
Thays a silly take. Bw is one of the most frequent posters on the board and yet he was a ghost when we won the whole fucking thing. How do you not notice that kind of silence?
Show me Im wrong. Prove it.
I don't know man. Maybe it's me because I'm incapable of remembering who didn't post on a football message board 13 years ago.
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In comment 15260875 Britt in VA said:
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and just "yay, the Giants won the Superbowl, can you believe it?". Either Superbowl?
Surely as a Giants fan and a 20 year contributor to BBI, that thought would have crossed your mind?
Jesus, you kept track of that. Man, it must be a eureka moment for you to finally be able to pull that detail out of your back pocket.
Thays a silly take. Bw is one of the most frequent posters on the board and yet he was a ghost when we won the whole fucking thing. How do you not notice that kind of silence?
Show me Im wrong. Prove it.
Sometimes people post on the forums to vent, and when things are going well, they're enjoying the ride so they aren't posting as much.
I hope Weather Man comes back to post one day but fearful of all the shit who would get if he did.
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In comment 15260875 Britt in VA said:
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and just "yay, the Giants won the Superbowl, can you believe it?". Either Superbowl?
Surely as a Giants fan and a 20 year contributor to BBI, that thought would have crossed your mind?
Jesus, you kept track of that. Man, it must be a eureka moment for you to finally be able to pull that detail out of your back pocket.
Thays a silly take. Bw is one of the most frequent posters on the board and yet he was a ghost when we won the whole fucking thing. How do you not notice that kind of silence?
Show me Im wrong. Prove it.
I could be wrong, but I think that you took a fairly extended absence form here.
I hope Weather Man comes back to post one day but fearful of all the shit who would get if he did.
Why would Weatherman get shit?
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and sometimes real life gets int he way of fake life.
I hope Weather Man comes back to post one day but fearful of all the shit who would get if he did.
Why would Weatherman get shit?
For being absent for a period of time.
Oddly, Terps was one of the guys I looked forward to reading before my hiatus.
I'm sure that we'll get back there soon.
Calmly telling people that they're not "telling anyone what to think or expect..."
...after telling everyone what to think and what to expect.
Believing that coming into a room full of what they call fanboys (they have no respect for fanboys), who are talking about how good things look and telling them that their opinions are wrong and that the QB is and always will be, bad.
Then claiming to just be discussing the team or making the conversation less boring.
Which ultimately means...making the conversation about themselves.
And finally, claiming "both sides" and playing the victim.
The self-awareness issue is actually yours. Those posters don't do what you are suggesting. In fact, they typically become the conversation because so many here want to argue specifically with them and it becomes the drama.
Oddly, Terps was one of the guys I looked forward to reading before my hiatus.
I'm sure that we'll get back there soon.
Anybody give you shit for it?
Seems that there was one tick-turd that claimed I was a dupe.
Don't remember who that was.
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In comment 15260989 Greg from LI said:
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...than the constant declarations that anyone who is remotely critical is "shitting on the team".
Who has been "remotely critical?'
"Shitting on the team" is ambiguous and not what I had in mimd when discussing these posters.
"Vomiting up the same narrative in the absence of any logic that combats prevailing opinions based on the entire status of the other personnel on the roster" is one I take exception to.
If you take exception then why engage and refer to them directly as "dip shits" no less like you did earlier.
You're looking to only pick a fight and rip into them.
A few of these guys go overboard with the Jones narrative in my view but its the opposition that actually hijacks and ruins threads, not them.
It is what all NFL franchises need. I think the HC is more important in football than other sports. A NFL QB might be the most important single position in all of team sports. Maybe Hockey goalie? Maybe.
If you get those 2 things right you have shot every year.
It is what all NFL franchises need. I think the HC is more important in football than other sports. A NFL QB might be the most important single position in all of team sports. Maybe Hockey goalie? Maybe.
If you get those 2 things right you have shot every year.
Jones developing his game in 2021 would be like a double-bonus as the Giants would have their guy at QB and all those extra picks to continue to upgrade the roster on both sides of the ball.
It is unreasonable, IMO, to say what Jones is/isn't/or ever will be at this juncture. It is incomplete.
Do you know how many great players in NFL history wouldn't exist if they were written off after two seasons?
The way I see it, both positions have validity and historical examples to back them up. Yes, there are QBs who eventually emerged from poor starts, conquered their deficiencies, and became great. There are also QBs who showed glaring flaws early and never transcended them.
We don't know which Jones will be. However, I'm glad that if season 3 provides evidence that he's the latter, the Giants seem to now be in position to move on to a potentially more promising prospect in 2022.
Every game thread I see, if a Giant scores on a big play, there are about 25 posts saying something like "CRUUUUUUUUZ!!!!" or "LET'S GOOOOOOO!!!!!!" or "YEEAAAAHHHHH!!!" I've never thought to add such a comment myself, and I hope that doesn't mean that in the historical BBI register I've revealed myself to be someone who doesn't like these big plays.
But I’ll drop it.
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season by these standards. Baker Mayfield, too.
Both were in the playoffs in their 3rd season.
I don't know why anybody would have written off Josh Allen at all. He has been the model for what you want out of a developing QB in each of his first 3 seasons.
Yeah, that's a mystery to me too. Allen wasn't drafted as a sure-fire pro-ready QB who could be effective immediately. He had known warts/concerns as a prospect and improved upon them measurably in season 2 and especially season 3.
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It also brings out some strange arguments. For example, most posters seen to agree that this is a prove it year for Jones. But many are also arguing that he has played well to this point. I don't get that...if he has played well why does he have to prove anything?
More utter bullshit from you. What posters have said he has played well?
Ha! Are you seriously trying to say that no one has said he played well his rookie year, or invoked it as a glimpse of how awesome Jones can be?
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...simply one of self-awareness.
Calmly telling people that they're not "telling anyone what to think or expect..."
...after telling everyone what to think and what to expect.
Believing that coming into a room full of what they call fanboys (they have no respect for fanboys), who are talking about how good things look and telling them that their opinions are wrong and that the QB is and always will be, bad.
Then claiming to just be discussing the team or making the conversation less boring.
Which ultimately means...making the conversation about themselves.
And finally, claiming "both sides" and playing the victim.
The self-awareness issue is actually yours. Those posters don't do what you are suggesting. In fact, they typically become the conversation because so many here want to argue specifically with them and it becomes the drama.
The self-awareness issue is actually yours. Those posters don't do what you are suggesting. In fact, they typically become the conversation because so many here want to argue specifically with them and it becomes the drama.
Thanks.
It's often true though. I mean, I'm sure Chopperhatch honestly believes that Terps constantly brags about his anti-Beckham stance being vindicated, but I personally haven't seen that... maybe just a few mentions once in a blue moon. It's like the people who believe there's a War on Christmas.
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The self-awareness issue is actually yours. Those posters don't do what you are suggesting. In fact, they typically become the conversation because so many here want to argue specifically with them and it becomes the drama.
Thanks.
It's often true though. I mean, I'm sure Chopperhatch honestly believes that Terps constantly brags about his anti-Beckham stance being vindicated, but I personally haven't seen that... maybe just a few mentions once in a blue moon. It's like the people who believe there's a War on Christmas.
I haven't seen it either. Yes, it has been mentioned but never in a bragging sense. Moreso in just reasonably displaying that he has some common sense in reading situations well in the past while defending himself from a current attack.
As mentioned earlier, a couple of guys here go very hard on Jones, Gettleman and few other NYG'isms, sometimes even overboard. So some backlash should be expected and even accepted. But the masses that form in these threads to try and shut anti-Giant talk like that down is borderline insane. Some try to do it rationally, but way too many make it a personal vendetta and lose their minds or just likely do so to activate themselves into a thread.
Either way, in my view they are the true hijackers. The hot takes in a thread are always going to be prevalent to some degree. And hot takes go both ways...positive and negative.
The jury is out. Optimists will hope. Pessimists will fear. The camps will divide...to the victor the spoils of war.
I remember when I used to think bw was serious...good days in the pollyanna fanclub. Still glad he's back. Much easier to read than Eeyore.
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In comment 15260992 Brown_Hornet said:
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In comment 15260989 Greg from LI said:
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...than the constant declarations that anyone who is remotely critical is "shitting on the team".
Who has been "remotely critical?'
"Shitting on the team" is ambiguous and not what I had in mimd when discussing these posters.
"Vomiting up the same narrative in the absence of any logic that combats prevailing opinions based on the entire status of the other personnel on the roster" is one I take exception to.
If you take exception then why engage and refer to them directly as "dip shits" no less like you did earlier.
You're looking to only pick a fight and rip into them.
A few of these guys go overboard with the Jones narrative in my view but its the opposition that actually hijacks and ruins threads, not them.
That’s all he does, follow them around threads and name calls. Your typical online tough guy. Then a few others follow them around, and have the same arguments. Now remembering posts from years ago, lol wow.
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In comment 15261125 Brown_Hornet said:
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The self-awareness issue is actually yours. Those posters don't do what you are suggesting. In fact, they typically become the conversation because so many here want to argue specifically with them and it becomes the drama.
Thanks.
It's often true though. I mean, I'm sure Chopperhatch honestly believes that Terps constantly brags about his anti-Beckham stance being vindicated, but I personally haven't seen that... maybe just a few mentions once in a blue moon. It's like the people who believe there's a War on Christmas.
I haven't seen it either. Yes, it has been mentioned but never in a bragging sense. Moreso in just reasonably displaying that he has some common sense in reading situations well in the past while defending himself from a current attack.
As mentioned earlier, a couple of guys here go very hard on Jones, Gettleman and few other NYG'isms, sometimes even overboard. So some backlash should be expected and even accepted. But the masses that form in these threads to try and shut anti-Giant talk like that down is borderline insane. Some try to do it rationally, but way too many make it a personal vendetta and lose their minds or just likely do so to activate themselves into a thread.
Either way, in my view they are the true hijackers. The hot takes in a thread are always going to be prevalent to some degree. And hot takes go both ways...positive and negative.
I’m not sure that the best way to fight back against a perceived myth is to create on of your own.
The reason is because he is our QB, I could not care less about proving posters wrong...who cares!
Go get a playoff season. love the coach, the D could be very good.