Of the Giants' 22 starters from Week 17 of the 2019 season, 12 are gone, as are 32 of the 53 players from that roster. Half of those 32 are either retired (quarterback Eli Manning), unsigned as of mid-May or out of the league.
I like the assessment about the improved units for both depth and starters but while the above number is interesting, it also doesn't account for how much turnover there is most teams in the league. I just check Pro Football Reference and counted about 13 members of the Steelers who started games the majority of their games in 2019 who are off the team.
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It is a comparison to week 17 of the 2019 season.
When he references Jan 8, 2020, I think he means the last game of the 2019 season...not the 2020 season.
Going position by position from the article OL and DB are really the units that turned over the most. 4/5 OL starters are new even if Hernandez wins a job and 4/5 guys in the secondary too (Peppers being the only holdover). That makes sense given the amount of resources they've pumped into both units over the past 2 offseasons (out of 6 draft picks at those 2 positions 5/6 are projected as current starters).
jmo but there's a lot of scrambling to walk back the last 12-24 months of "what's the plan?" articles while most of the current starting lineup was being drafted.
Ok.......who the hell is Scott?
Also am i wrong for thinking the giants lead the league over the past 10 years in guys that would start games...and then not catch on a team or be out of the league the next year? Thats why Okwara was such a polarizing figure here....Kuhn, Merriweather, Preston Parker, etc
Ok.......who the hell is Scott?
Also am i wrong for thinking the giants lead the league over the past 10 years in guys that would start games...and then not catch on a team or be out of the league the next year? Thats why Okwara was such a polarizing figure here....Kuhn, Merriweather, Preston Parker, etc
Do some more work Jordan!
The only veterans the Giants added in 2018 and 2019 of note left are Williams, Peppers, and Solder. The list of players they added in that time period that fell flat is too long to list.
You have to draft well and add quality vets, which looks like it’s happening.
Rosters turn. As Eric pointed out above, it’s a statistical myth that teams are keeping big chunks of the team together over long periods of time. You have to keep the talent spigot running always.
Take a look at the 2007 Super Bowl roster vs 2011.
Do some more work Jordan!
Exactly. He thinks he can catch most people sleeping, but he probably can. We are the outliers folks. We are football nerds/savants/diehards. His crap isn't for us.
I would have to dig up the article but I think it was like in the high 30% range for Super Bowl winners over the last decade or something close to that. And obviously teams that seem to be rebuilding every year (like the NYG) it is probably higher.
But when speaking of turnover relative to Starters though, 12 of 22 does sound pretty high.
Clearly needed...
Do some more work Jordan!
Those are indeed the right questions to ask.
In 2018, the top four safeties on the Giants by snapcount were:
1) Curtis Riley (96%) - Out of the league 2 years later
2) Landon Collins (74%)
3) Michael Thomas (43%) - Out of the league 1 year later
4) Sean Chandler (12%) - May not even make the team
Cornerbacks:
1) Jenkins (99%)
2) Webb (91%) - Out of the league 1 year later
3) Haley (39%) - Has only been a back-up since
4) Apple (26%)
Now heading into 2021...
Safeties:
1) Peppers
2) Ryan
3) McKinney
4) Love
Cornerbacks:
1) Bradberry
2) Jackson
3) Robinson
4) Holmes
Partially explains why the defense went from god awful to good. Nothing against the guy, but my god was he terrible.
He would figure to replace Sheard's role, DE in 4-man fronts mostly.
The only veterans the Giants added in 2018 and 2019 of note left are Williams, Peppers, and Solder. The list of players they added in that time period that fell flat is too long to list.
The only defense I will ever make of the front office for those veteran pickups is the fact that some of the guys who have moved on were only brought in to be low cost stop-gaps. The list below is from BBI team building page and is from the 2018 page. I count only only three guys who were really counted on to be a long-term solutions...
Free Agents Signed from Other Teams:
LB/DE Kareem Martin (Signed by Giants; 3-Years, $15 million)
LT Nate Solder (Signed by Giants; 4-Years, $62 million)
OG Patrick Omameh (Signed by Giants; 3-Years, $15 million)
CB Curtis Riley (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $630,000 salary)
WR Cody Latimer (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $2.5 million)
S Michael Thomas (Signed by Giants; 2-Years, $4 million)
TE Scott Simonson (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $705,000 salary)
OG Zac Kerin (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $630,000 salary)
LB Connor Barwin (Signed by Giants; 2-Years, $5 million)
CB Leonard Johnson (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $790,000 salary)
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The Giants have made tremendous improvements in acquiring veteran players in 2020 and 2021.
The only veterans the Giants added in 2018 and 2019 of note left are Williams, Peppers, and Solder. The list of players they added in that time period that fell flat is too long to list.
The only defense I will ever make of the front office for those veteran pickups is the fact that some of the guys who have moved on were only brought in to be low cost stop-gaps. The list below is from BBI team building page and is from the 2018 page. I count only only three guys who were really counted on to be a long-term solutions...
Free Agents Signed from Other Teams:
LB/DE Kareem Martin (Signed by Giants; 3-Years, $15 million)
LT Nate Solder (Signed by Giants; 4-Years, $62 million)
OG Patrick Omameh (Signed by Giants; 3-Years, $15 million)
CB Curtis Riley (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $630,000 salary)
WR Cody Latimer (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $2.5 million)
S Michael Thomas (Signed by Giants; 2-Years, $4 million)
TE Scott Simonson (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $705,000 salary)
OG Zac Kerin (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $630,000 salary)
LB Connor Barwin (Signed by Giants; 2-Years, $5 million)
CB Leonard Johnson (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $790,000 salary)
That list looks way too short. And yes, a bunch of guys were brought in to be stop gaps, but a lot of money flowed out to guys that weren't and they sucked. And just because there were stop gaps doesn't mean they had to be bad stop gaps, but they were.
Player evaluation was god-damn awful for 2018 and 2019 and then something changed. It got better. It seemingly got better for the non-stop gap deals, the prove it deals and even some of the stop gap deals.
Would one of those couple from Arizona be Markus Golden?
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The Giants have made tremendous improvements in acquiring veteran players in 2020 and 2021.
The only veterans the Giants added in 2018 and 2019 of note left are Williams, Peppers, and Solder. The list of players they added in that time period that fell flat is too long to list.
The only defense I will ever make of the front office for those veteran pickups is the fact that some of the guys who have moved on were only brought in to be low cost stop-gaps. The list below is from BBI team building page and is from the 2018 page. I count only only three guys who were really counted on to be a long-term solutions...
Free Agents Signed from Other Teams:
LB/DE Kareem Martin (Signed by Giants; 3-Years, $15 million)
LT Nate Solder (Signed by Giants; 4-Years, $62 million)
OG Patrick Omameh (Signed by Giants; 3-Years, $15 million)
CB Curtis Riley (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $630,000 salary)
WR Cody Latimer (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $2.5 million)
S Michael Thomas (Signed by Giants; 2-Years, $4 million)
TE Scott Simonson (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $705,000 salary)
OG Zac Kerin (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $630,000 salary)
LB Connor Barwin (Signed by Giants; 2-Years, $5 million)
CB Leonard Johnson (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $790,000 salary)
I don't think you can absolve the front office for "low cost stop-gap" signings unless those guys played out their whole contract. Some of those guys who you're probably counting as stop-gap solutions still wound up getting cut before their contract expired, which (without looking) may have caused dead money (likely nominal) but also did not provide for comp pick opportunities. IMO, short term stop gap signings should also be part of your comp pick strategy. When you sign them for longer than you need them to get them into the building, and you cut them earlier than their contract calls for, you're wasting opportunity.
The FO appears to have gotten much better about this recently, but was rather inefficient early on.
The veteran upgrades of note in 2018/2019 in my view were:
- Solder
- Omameh
- Latimer
- Martin
- Ogletree
- Michael Thomas
- Bathea
- Stewart
- Tate
- Zeitler
- Peppers
- Williams
- Dixon
That's a pretty low batting average for a guy who was an ace pro personnel director here.
I believe things have been dramatically better the last two off seasons in this regard.
Remember. Ryan Pace has been able to draft two franchise altering QB’s. Jason Licht was not good in Tampa before Brady. Les Snead was not good before McVay.
Gettleman is on his second and likely final chance right now.
The veteran upgrades of note in 2018/2019 in my view were:
- Solder
- Omameh
- Latimer
- Martin
- Ogletree
- Michael Thomas
- Bathea
- Stewart
- Tate
- Zeitler
- Peppers
- Williams
- Dixon
That's a pretty low batting average for a guy who was an ace pro personnel director here.
I believe things have been dramatically better the last two off seasons in this regard.
I think you're uncovering something that we're probably also seeing play out with the roster in general, with DG as GM:
DG is likely a very effective leader/delegator of duty. When he was in charge of pro personnel, he probably ran a very tight ship, informed by the sort of free agents that TC was seeking. And over the past two offseasons, as GM, he has also been very effective, presumably informed by the sort of players that Judge and his staff have been seeking.
And in his first two years, DG was abysmal in the pro personnel dept; it was incredibly bad for someone who was genuinely good at that exact duty in his previous role with the team. But it's becoming increasingly clear that DG listens to what his coaching staff requests. And when they're not especially good at identifying or articulating what they need, he's a mess. But when they are on the same page, DG is effective.
It's very possible that many GMs are like this as well. And maybe we just saw DG flail about because Shurmur (and his staff) were so unequipped to request the sort of players they needed, but it's undeniable that he's a different GM the past two years than he was his first two years.
I’ve believed this for a while. Gettleman is a talented guy, but he’s a number two, not a number one. With a strong coach and GM, he was a successful pro personnel guy in NY. With a strong coach in Carolina, he was a strong GM.
Clear as day he came back to NY, was given the keys to architect a team, and wasn’t up to the task.
it's actually kind of an interesting litmus test. If you have a non-rookie HC who isn't strong enough to own that power dynamic you probably don't have the guy. You basically have someone just waiting to get fired like Mike McCarthy.
I think the 2018 situation was probably the most control Gettleman has and will ever had. He was a principal in choosing the coach, choosing the QB, spending a lot of money. And none of that worked out in 2018.
I think you can swap out the coach and guys like Chris Ballard, Rick Spielman, and Jon Robinson for instance be more capable of architecting a team.
And regarding Judge, I recall something Peter King said before he was hired: "The Giants aren't going to hire someone who doesn't think Jones is the quarterback of the future."
So if ownership mandated Eli in 2018 and then ownership/Gettleman mandated Jones in 2019, it's not really the head coach running the show is it? Shurmur wouldn't have had the leeway to say he wanted to move on from Eli, and Judge (or whomever) wouldn't have had the leeway to say he didn't believe in Jones.
There seem to be lots of voices in the room making these decisions; difficult to imagine they all agree, or that the head coach is the guy with the final say.
Per FMiC and media reports, Gettleman was fired in Carolina for clashing with ownership about ownership's sentimental ties to players.
I don't believe for a moment Gettleman then comes to the Giants, and gets pulled around by his ear by Mara. Gettleman said and did everything to keep Manning. Gettleman was the architect to keep Manning. He wanted to keep Manning.
Hired a QB centric HC, invested in vet OL, picked a RB no. 2 overall, signed Beckham to a lucrative extension.
Gettleman & Shurmur did their own assessment of Manning and they came to a conclusion they could still win with him. So that is what they told ownership and they moved on to the next thing in early 2018.
Just because it happened to be the result Mara was hoping to hear doesn't force-feed this into ANY type of mandate.
The Giants made lots of bad decisions during those years. Bad calls are why they are stuck in a 10 year rut. It is not hardly difficult to believe that they wanted to hold on to what they thought at the time was their best shot of pulling out of the nose dive.
No team or owner in the NFL wants to rush into the uncertainty of having to pick a new QB, and no Giants fans at the time were actually ready or anxious to move on from Manning.
The Giants made lots of bad decisions during those years. Bad calls are why they are stuck in a 10 year rut. It is not hardly difficult to believe that they wanted to hold on to what they thought at the time was their best shot of pulling out of the nose dive.
No team or owner in the NFL wants to rush into the uncertainty of having to pick a new QB, and no Giants fans at the time were actually ready or anxious to move on from Manning.
Now I really would disagree if that is the logic. Here is why it is far-fetched...
Mara is on record asking Reese to see if it makes sense to start playing other QBs late in poor 2017 season.
As christian mentioned, why would DG follow a mandate in NY that would be an exact opposite of what he was against doing in CAR.
Mara has already answered publicly there was no such mandate to keep Eli.
Mara was seemingly fine with drafting a QB in early 2019, and playing him after 2 games.
So let me get this straight...Mara is okay to begin thinking about life after Manning at end of 2017 and then again at beginning of 2019. But in-between it was give me Eli Manning or Give Me Death?
not bloody likely...
Gettleman & Shurmur did their own assessment of Manning and they came to a conclusion they could still win with him. So that is what they told ownership and they moved on to the next thing in early 2018.
Just because it happened to be the result Mara was hoping to hear doesn't force-feed this into ANY type of mandate.
Yeah I'm not buying a mandate either. The offensive line was so bad in 2017 that they couldn't get an accurate read on whether Eli was truly declining or not. In 2018, the offensive line was still bad, but it was apparent Eli's feet were in concrete at that point and wasn't going to be effective until the got the line fixed. Obviously, that wasn't going to happen overnight and by the time it did, Eli would have been ineffective.
I think they think could have squeezed another couple years out of Eli and with a talent like Barkley in the backfield, paired with a great defense, probably could have made another run or two. We saw his brother win a SB when physically he was one of the worst QBs in the league. Hence the desperation signing of Solder. Eli's legacy clouded the thinking in the building, but at least they course-corrected fast.
I think the nuance is did Mara hire a GM and force him against his best wishes to construct a team around Manning, or did Mara hire a GM who agreed building around Manning was a viable solution.
No team or owner in the NFL wants to rush into the uncertainty of having to pick a new QB, and no Giants fans at the time were actually ready or anxious to move on from Manning.
At the risk of walking into a No True Scotsman defense here, this is false on its face.
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I don't really know why it seems far-fetched to anyone.
The Giants made lots of bad decisions during those years. Bad calls are why they are stuck in a 10 year rut. It is not hardly difficult to believe that they wanted to hold on to what they thought at the time was their best shot of pulling out of the nose dive.
No team or owner in the NFL wants to rush into the uncertainty of having to pick a new QB, and no Giants fans at the time were actually ready or anxious to move on from Manning.
Now I really would disagree if that is the logic. Here is why it is far-fetched...
Mara is on record asking Reese to see if it makes sense to start playing other QBs late in poor 2017 season.
As christian mentioned, why would DG follow a mandate in NY that would be an exact opposite of what he was against doing in CAR.
Mara has already answered publicly there was no such mandate to keep Eli.
Mara was seemingly fine with drafting a QB in early 2019, and playing him after 2 games.
So let me get this straight...Mara is okay to begin thinking about life after Manning at end of 2017 and then again at beginning of 2019. But in-between it was give me Eli Manning or Give Me Death?
not bloody likely...
I think you have to allow yourself to bend that linear path just a touch to factor for the mouthbreather outcry on WFAN when Eli benched himself. Mara does not like negative PR. Hanlon is almost a presidential-level spin doctor for that exact reason.
Per FMiC and media reports, Gettleman was fired in Carolina for clashing with ownership about ownership's sentimental ties to players.
Interesting theory! I can see that angle where Gettleman stood his ground on certain players. However, is seems DG has hired, or had, more prior Panthers on the hook for the NYG throughout any GM tenure-ship I can remember..
So where does the sentiment lie? The aging players from Carolina haven't panned out so well given our history.
I believe strongly that Mara did not have any mandate for Eli to start. I do believe Gettleman pitched a plan that they could win with Eli and Mara preferred that path. I also think hiring Gettleman was a wink to Abrams as general manager in waiting. He took on an increased role including sitting in on head coach interviews since DG got the job.
Manning was shot. And any comparison to the end of his brother’s career is lazy and silly.
And regarding Judge, I recall something Peter King said before he was hired: "The Giants aren't going to hire someone who doesn't think Jones is the quarterback of the future."
So if ownership mandated Eli in 2018 and then ownership/Gettleman mandated Jones in 2019, it's not really the head coach running the show is it? Shurmur wouldn't have had the leeway to say he wanted to move on from Eli, and Judge (or whomever) wouldn't have had the leeway to say he didn't believe in Jones.
There seem to be lots of voices in the room making these decisions; difficult to imagine they all agree, or that the head coach is the guy with the final say.
I like Judge and his Staff...
I like last year's draft and this year's moves....xtra #1
I like the potential of this OL & offense with playmakers
I like the DB's and DL; LB's depends on our draft & the development of last year's guys.
Overall, I like the "gut feeling" I have about Jones, this staff, DG, our trades working out very well for us as Chicago will win 7 games at most, etc.
The overhaul is to build around "your guys" and create a team in the image of Judge & winning. We have had so much losing and that grows on the soul. We have a new "Soul" and I like the potential.
Giants will win 11 games this year, give or take a game, and win the NFC East. This assumes we of course stay healthy in the key spots and the injured (Barkley) return to form. I really believe we have the potential to be a Top 5 run offense and run defense along with a top ST's overall and both will generate close wins.
My wish list is for Slayton to develop into a solid #2 WR HR threat, a guy who can beat a good CB from time to time at least and must therefore be accounted for by a safety. His speed along with Toney and Golladay can make our receiving corps dangerous as the season progresses.
We will make a late surge and do damage in the playoffs. I'm not ready to say "hey, SB here we come" as we lack a top end Pass Rusher and a top end OL to complete the team. We shall see...
Through this lens then the 2018 draft and drafting of Barkley et al makes complete sense. As do the horrible free agent signings that year. And the ghastly mistake of hiring Pat Shurmur as the head coach. The results were not unexpectedly dreadful, but the plan was what Mara wanted. In hindsight, the strategy actually made sense because of the binary outcome - it would either work or ensure the "fastest possible turnaround" if properly handled.
When it was clear in early 2019 that the plan was a mistake, the rebuild should have begun by changing to a transformative young head coach, ala Joe Judge, who would have let Eli just ride out the year as the quarterback while launching the transformation of the personnel and culture of the team. And I strongly believe that the last thing someone with the pedigree of Saban and Belichick would have done would have been to prematurely reach for a young quarterback prior to establishing the culture and norms of the organization. Which he could have easily done under the cover of Eli's last rodeo while patiently identifying and developing his successor beginning in 2020.
Now Judge is doing the right things in transforming the team but he is saddled with a quarterback that may or may not be the right guy. If DJ is great this year, then there is no issue and we have our turnaround - coach and quarterback are set. If DJ is terrible, then Judge gets the chance to get his guy next year and move forward as he would have done in 2020, albeit two years later. But what if DJ is just ok? He improves, but is still a middle of the pack NFL quarterback. Where does accountability lie? Can 1983 be far away? Or is it still years away? Mara's grave error was not in letting Eli have one more run in 2018-2019. It was betting that Shurmur was the guy to transform the team after the dreadful 2018 season. And allowing a coach not equipped with the requisite skills for a turnaround to select his guy at quarterback.
So this is the prologue to the 2021 season and why debate on DJ will be fierce this year. Hoping this is 1984 and not 1979...