Of the Giants' 22 starters from Week 17 of the 2019 season, 12 are gone, as are 32 of the 53 players from that roster. Half of those 32 are either retired (quarterback Eli Manning), unsigned as of mid-May or out of the league.
I like the assessment about the improved units for both depth and starters but while the above number is interesting, it also doesn't account for how much turnover there is most teams in the league. I just check Pro Football Reference and counted about 13 members of the Steelers who started games the majority of their games in 2019 who are off the team.
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It isn't possible that the DG/Front Office was just doing its thing back then and concluded Barkley was the best player in the draft, actually thought they were making solid free agent signings and assumed Shurmur was a competent head coach?
Not possible?
And regarding Judge, I recall something Peter King said before he was hired: "The Giants aren't going to hire someone who doesn't think Jones is the quarterback of the future."
So if ownership mandated Eli in 2018 and then ownership/Gettleman mandated Jones in 2019, it's not really the head coach running the show is it? Shurmur wouldn't have had the leeway to say he wanted to move on from Eli, and Judge (or whomever) wouldn't have had the leeway to say he didn't believe in Jones.
There seem to be lots of voices in the room making these decisions; difficult to imagine they all agree, or that the head coach is the guy with the final say.
I don’t think there was any mandate. During the interview, I’m sure Gettleman, Riddick, Ross & Abrams all laid out their plans for the franchise. Coming off all the fan backlash, Mara likely had a strong preference to the plan which included a retooling around Eli.
The same goes for the head coach interviews. Jones was coming off a rookie season, I doubt there was any mandate regarding Jones. But, if you’re the interviewer, you’re going to have a preference towards a plan which includes the #6 pick selected 8 months earlier. Judge didn’t even say Jones by name for a few months.
Lastly, I’m not buying the fact that the Giants will force Jones into being the next Eli and won’t move off him. That’s the hope and why he was drafted, but if he’s not winning it’s not going to happen. Eli was apart of an 11-5 team in his second season. Jones has a career record of 8-18. The Giants are giving him this season. And there’s no doubt he’s well liked in the locker room, the kid appears to work his ass off. Unlike Haskins, who I’m sure would still be rostered by WFT if he had half the work ethic of Jones. That stuff matters.
I think it’s overstated that Mara won’t move off players. He did sign on the Geno Smith plan didn’t he?
The criticism the Giants 100% deserve is reacting in 2019 and forcing the Jones pick. The correct approach would have been to use #6 & #17 during that draft to build up the lines. It would have given them a chance to draft Herbert in 2020 who Gettleman reportedly liked. It would also have prevented the new head coach from inheriting a QB.
The criticism the Giants 100% deserve is reacting in 2019 and forcing the Jones pick. The correct approach would have been to use #6 & #17 during that draft to build up the lines. It would have given them a chance to draft Herbert in 2020 who Gettleman reportedly liked. It would also have prevented the new head coach from inheriting a QB.
Theoretically, would it have been possible for the Giants to get Jones, an edge rusher like Montez Sweat at pick no. 17, and Dexter Lawrence at pick no. 30, the pick that was used to draft Deandre Baker? How many teams are looking for a nose tackle in the first round (outside of the Patriots and Vince Wilfork)?
Manning was shot. And any comparison to the end of his brother’s career is lazy and silly.
in the hypothetical thesis where the exact opposite was decided (all the above must go) and you were GM, what would your plan have been in 2018? Reminder that OBJ was coming off major injury, had no contract, and was threatening to holdout, so he was not nearly as tradable as he became in 2019.
The bigger point is they got it wrong with Beckham. He wasn’t manageable. They got it wrong with Manning. He was shot. They got it wrong with all the other vets acquisitions. They all sucked.
You know who wouldn’t have signed off on any of that shit? Joe Judge.
The bigger point is they got it wrong with Beckham. He wasn’t manageable. They got it wrong with Manning. He was shot. They got it wrong with all the other vets acquisitions. They all sucked.
You know who wouldn’t have signed off on any of that shit? Joe Judge.
Great post.
The criticism the Giants 100% deserve is reacting in 2019 and forcing the Jones pick. The correct approach would have been to use #6 & #17 during that draft to build up the lines. It would have given them a chance to draft Herbert in 2020 who Gettleman reportedly liked. It would also have prevented the new head coach from inheriting a QB.
I'm not John Mara-or am I?-but it meant something to me that Eli never played for another team. Call me sentimental or old school, but I feel that way.
I get that point too. Selfishly, I'm glad he never played elsewhere, but I see your point too. It's sad how his career played out post XLVI. I still think he gets into Canton, but if he retires February 6, 2012...he's already in.
But he had a pretty damn good career. And look forward to his HoF speech...you know it will be a good one.
I would have been fine with him going to Chicago or Denver or something to try to salvage something at the end. I prefer that to him turning out for an organization that, between 2012 and 2019, had an ownership and front office that didn't know which way was up.
Definitely.
Sure, didn’t suggest otherwise. He was everything and more.
But sometime around 2015 or 2016, life beyond Eli needed far more momentum but yet it never really happened. They figured they could rebuild it around him, and they were wrong.
And they wrong, huge...
The Giants paid a steep price to acquire him and put playoff quality rosters around him in 9 of the 14 seasons he was a full-time starter in the NFL.
When contract time came around, they never pinched him, and paid him at the top of curve.
When he got himself mixed up with the dip shit equipment guys and the owners got deposed, they had his back 100% and paid their share of a settlement to keep that silliness from dragging.
The Giants had 3 seasons where Manning was a good a QB and they couldn’t construct a pretty/good enough roster - 2013, 2014, 2015.
Putting together a group like the 2006-2012 teams is a big accomplishment. Their are maybe 10 QBs in NFL history to get two bites at the apple with talent like that.
The Giants paid a steep price to acquire him and put playoff quality rosters around him in 9 of the 14 seasons he was a full-time starter in the NFL.
The Giants had 3 seasons where Manning was a good a QB and they couldn’t construct a pretty/good enough roster - 2013, 2014, 2015.
Putting together a group like the 2006-2012 teams is a big accomplishment. Their are maybe 10 QBs in NFL history to get two bites at the apple with talent like that.
Plus One. I respect a lot of posters here but sometimes we come off as "entitled" brats when complaining about "all the years" where things didn't work out for the Giants. Some of it was bad planning but several cases were simply run of the mill bad injury luck or someone else getting lucky and running the table like we did in 2016. BBI needs to do a "Let it Go" singalong and just focus on the here and now
The Giants paid a steep price to acquire him and put playoff quality rosters around him in 9 of the 14 seasons he was a full-time starter in the NFL.
When contract time came around, they never pinched him, and paid him at the top of curve.
When he got himself mixed up with the dip shit equipment guys and the owners got deposed, they had his back 100% and paid their share of a settlement to keep that silliness from dragging.
The Giants had 3 seasons where Manning was a good a QB and they couldn’t construct a pretty/good enough roster - 2013, 2014, 2015.
Putting together a group like the 2006-2012 teams is a big accomplishment. Their are maybe 10 QBs in NFL history to get two bites at the apple with talent like that.
This is fair. My comments above are more in the context of how much it meant that Eli didn't play for another team. For me that means nothing. As a fan to me everything from 2012 on was an unmemorable waste. If I could go back and do it over again I'd trade Eli after winning the second Super Bowl. Everyone involved would have been better off.
The Giants had plenty of money to spend, some pretty decent talent, and with a little more wisdom on the sidelines and front office, could have built a team where Manning as a passenger could have had a chance at a deeper playoff run.
In 2011 a new CBA again changed the NFL by introducing the rookie wage scale, and it can be argued the Giants have struggled to acclimate to that change as well.
In 2011 a new CBA again changed the NFL by introducing the rookie wage scale, and it can be argued the Giants have struggled to acclimate to that change as well.
They absolutely have, a lot of teams didn't adjust quickly enough and the ones that did capitalized big. We're a conservative organization, we're gonna be slow or late to any changes. It is what it is. There are positives to that approach but the last 10 years were not favorable for that mindset. I think we're slowly coming around so hopeful the seismic shifts in the financials and on-field rules are over for now.
The irony about Eli’s end here, the team did do everything they could to win with Eli, probably too much. Forcing McAdoo on Coughlin after the 2013 season was all about Eli. Drafting Beckham was all about Eli. Drafting Barkley was about Eli. The investments to Pugh & Flowers was about Eli. It just didn’t work. It probably would have been better if they weren’t so Eli centric in their decisions after 2013, should have just tried to build a winner. Eli had a lot of wear & tear on his arm and took many hits by the time the 2013 season was over; the team should have identified that, and built a roster which was less reliant on Eli.
Terps, your point is fair as well. Seeing Eli compete for the playoffs on another team would have been better for his career.
Maybe being a Giant actually means more to him.
Maybe if OBJ could catch a TD or two in that playoff game in Green Bay, we go up 14-0 and unleash hell on the playoffs that year with Playoff Eli…
Maybe if the front office actually put together an offense like they had from 2005-2011 - strong OL, two reliable outside weapons, good running game, clutch QB….
Maybe…just maybe it’s a whole bunch of gray area and we could discuss football on a higher level around here without agenda?
Maybe….
When contract time came around, they never pinched him, and paid him at the top of curve.
When he got himself mixed up with the dip shit equipment guys and the owners got deposed, they had his back 100% and paid their share of a settlement to keep that silliness from dragging.
The Giants had 3 seasons where Manning was a good a QB and they couldn’t construct a pretty/good enough roster - 2013, 2014, 2015....
Maybe being a Giant actually means more to him.
Maybe if OBJ could catch a TD or two in that playoff game in Green Bay, we go up 14-0 and unleash hell on the playoffs that year with Playoff Eli…
Maybe if the front office actually put together an offense like they had from 2005-2011 - strong OL, two reliable outside weapons, good running game, clutch QB….
Maybe…just maybe it’s a whole bunch of gray area and we could discuss football on a higher level around here without agenda?
Maybe….
Who has an agenda? We’re having a perfectly reasonable, balanced discussion.
The bigger point is they got it wrong with Beckham. He wasn’t manageable. They got it wrong with Manning. He was shot. They got it wrong with all the other vets acquisitions. They all sucked.
You know who wouldn’t have signed off on any of that shit? Joe Judge.
and the cooks trade is a fair point however I think NYG fan heads would have exploded if they'd traded Beckham then. I'm not disagreeing that it would have been the right thing to do but i would have traded beckham even before that if I got the sense he was going to be a headache on the extension (which predictably ended up being the case). I'm also not certain any coach or gm would have come in and had that be their first move before playing a game (especially a younger one, even Judge). That would have taken extreme chutzpah. Far less than it took to trade him in 2019, which still took a lot of chutzpuh (and got blasted by most at the time).
For example, if the team had moved on Eli after 2017, Darnold or Rosen would likely have been the choice over Barkely...and that would have been a disaster!
Yeah, I know Allen was in that draft, but he wasn't considered a top choice at QB because of his accuracy. I wanted Lamar Jackson, but I don't think the coaches here at the time could have adapted their offense to his style of play, so I doubt he was ever in consideration.
Darnold (for good or bad) was considered a more "Pro Ready" QB, and even with his faults, I don't think the Giants would have moved on from him like the Jets did. We may have dodged a bullet there, since I think for good or bad, Jones will have a better career than Darnold.
Quote:
Maybe Eli didn’t want to go to Jacksonville, Chicago, or somewhere else to finish out his career post 2015ish.
Maybe being a Giant actually means more to him.
Maybe if OBJ could catch a TD or two in that playoff game in Green Bay, we go up 14-0 and unleash hell on the playoffs that year with Playoff Eli…
Maybe if the front office actually put together an offense like they had from 2005-2011 - strong OL, two reliable outside weapons, good running game, clutch QB….
Maybe…just maybe it’s a whole bunch of gray area and we could discuss football on a higher level around here without agenda?
Maybe….
Who has an agenda? We’re having a perfectly reasonable, balanced discussion.
Mid 90s - Brown vs. Graham
Late 90s-Early 00s -Fasselistas vs. whatever the other group was called? I grew to dislike Fassel late in his tenure so I should remember whatever that group was.
Early 00s - Eli is fine vs. We should have traded down and drafted Rivers or Big Ben.
Mid 00s - Coughlin as tough HC vs. he cannot relate to today’s players.
July 2007 - Trade that $trahan, we’ll never win with him vs. he’s our best pass rusher and it’s just training camp.
2012-2015 - Fix the OL vs. In Reese We Trust
2018-2020 - Barkley at 2 vs. trade down for OL
2019-Present - Daniel Jones - horrible quarterback who was over drafted or young quarterback surrounded by poor cast.
No one has one agenda. BBI is a group of Giants fans who all subscribe to different levels of thought with different agendas. Always has been, always will be. My opinion, each side has its points and we would be a better site if people would admit that.
Quote:
In comment 15265093 PetesHereNow said:
Quote:
Maybe Eli didn’t want to go to Jacksonville, Chicago, or somewhere else to finish out his career post 2015ish.
Maybe being a Giant actually means more to him.
Maybe if OBJ could catch a TD or two in that playoff game in Green Bay, we go up 14-0 and unleash hell on the playoffs that year with Playoff Eli…
Maybe if the front office actually put together an offense like they had from 2005-2011 - strong OL, two reliable outside weapons, good running game, clutch QB….
Maybe…just maybe it’s a whole bunch of gray area and we could discuss football on a higher level around here without agenda?
Maybe….
Who has an agenda? We’re having a perfectly reasonable, balanced discussion.
Mid 90s - Brown vs. Graham
Late 90s-Early 00s -Fasselistas vs. whatever the other group was called? I grew to dislike Fassel late in his tenure so I should remember whatever that group was.
Early 00s - Eli is fine vs. We should have traded down and drafted Rivers or Big Ben.
Mid 00s - Coughlin as tough HC vs. he cannot relate to today’s players.
July 2007 - Trade that $trahan, we’ll never win with him vs. he’s our best pass rusher and it’s just training camp.
2012-2015 - Fix the OL vs. In Reese We Trust
2018-2020 - Barkley at 2 vs. trade down for OL
2019-Present - Daniel Jones - horrible quarterback who was over drafted or young quarterback surrounded by poor cast.
No one has one agenda. BBI is a group of Giants fans who all subscribe to different levels of thought with different agendas. Always has been, always will be. My opinion, each side has its points and we would be a better site if people would admit that.
Fans can't communicate their opinions, and support & defend them adamantly, without being accused of having an agenda?
The Giants paid a steep price to acquire him and put playoff quality rosters around him in 9 of the 14 seasons he was a full-time starter in the NFL.
When contract time came around, they never pinched him, and paid him at the top of curve.
When he got himself mixed up with the dip shit equipment guys and the owners got deposed, they had his back 100% and paid their share of a settlement to keep that silliness from dragging.
The Giants had 3 seasons where Manning was a good a QB and they couldn’t construct a pretty/good enough roster - 2013, 2014, 2015.
Putting together a group like the 2006-2012 teams is a big accomplishment. Their are maybe 10 QBs in NFL history to get two bites at the apple with talent like that.
Excellent post.
This "little orphan Eli" mantra always bothers me. Like Mara woke up one day and found baby Eli in a picnic basket outside of "Jints Central". And the Mara family took him in, nursed him to health and helped guide him to become the Giants QB.
Eli is from one of the NFL's royal families. He grew up fairly wealthy, went to an excellent prep high school (Newman), was tutored by Peyton and Archie on how to play QB, and went to his dad's alma mater.
Now, he absolutely showed he had the skills and ability to be a high draft pick and NFL QB. He earned that part for sure.
But he, Tom Condon, Archie, and Peyton manipulated and disrupted the draft so Eli could get his way. And for a good portion of his career, the front office gave Eli very good OLs, quality RBs, very good WRs, and some excellent defensive talent. Many, many current and former great QBs are probably hugely envious of Eli's fortunes. Oh, and he was paid nearly a quarter billion dollars to play.
So I have little sympathy for how Eli's career ended. Sure, it didn't end like a fairy tale where Eli wins his third SB and then rides off into the sunset on a white horse back to back Oxford, MS. But he's very likely going to Canton with two SB rings that he was instrumental in getting.
What fan wouldn't have signed for that when he was traded for during the 2004 draft?
For example, if the team had moved on Eli after 2017, Darnold or Rosen would likely have been the choice over Barkely...and that would have been a disaster!
Yeah, I know Allen was in that draft, but he wasn't considered a top choice at QB because of his accuracy. I wanted Lamar Jackson, but I don't think the coaches here at the time could have adapted their offense to his style of play, so I doubt he was ever in consideration.
Darnold (for good or bad) was considered a more "Pro Ready" QB, and even with his faults, I don't think the Giants would have moved on from him like the Jets did. We may have dodged a bullet there, since I think for good or bad, Jones will have a better career than Darnold.
So the only feasible options for fans who thought it was time to move on from Eli Manning were "worse" options? There were simply no choices that were better prior to 2018, in 2018, or even after?
Dodging bullets isn't really a strategy.
I’m completely confused why this is a point you find necessary to make on this thread. I’d prefer to just debate the topic.