After all the of the off season moves to help the offense and having Kitchens available to step in to the OC spot on a moments notice, is Garrett on the hot seat?
Someone in upper management wanted Garrett. Considering that Garrett did have a history with Nick Saban I would not be surprised if Judge asked Saban for his input before agreeing to that. I do think that if we start slow offensively and/or Jones is not showing requisite progress there will be a push internally to make Kitchens the OC. That being said, if Kitchens is made the OC and Jones does not improve I don't think they will give him any slack about the change in OC since Kitchens is basically acting as an assistant Offensive Coordinator to Garrett.
where we have to decide on what we have in Daniel Jones, you had to stick with Garrett. You need to keep the continuity.
Kitchens in his new role would not be a change in continuity. You might have slightly different play calls in certain situations, but I imagine the terminology and such will be similar. That is probably why the Giants rearranged their coaching staff to get Kitchens more involved in the weekly gameplanning so if a change needed to be made it wouldn't hurt Jones's development.
I think there's a place for Garret without him calling plays
And I expect him not to call the plays, or at least not the full game. He will be involved but he's not the soul play caller. There are other things Garret does well. I expect Kitchens to be the primary play caller.
..Garrett needs to upgrade the playbook to the talent immediately. i'm sure JJ is not going to whistle through any regular season games guessing what his OC is doing and hope it flies, then make a decision in october.
if theres a change i'd bet it will be before tc.
is that this is Mara's guy. And I believe Mara thinks he is way smarter of a football guy than he actually is. Thus I can see there being an explicit or implicit understanding that Garret isn't going anywhere
I think he is with Judge but I'm not so sure he is with ownership.
This.
And yet, it was only a couple of weeks ago where Joe Judge had initiated some sort of coup and was making all of the decisions in one big autonomous vacuum.
I think he is with Judge but I'm not so sure he is with ownership.
This.
And yet, it was only a couple of weeks ago where Joe Judge had initiated some sort of coup and was making all of the decisions in one big autonomous vacuum.
I think he is with Judge but I'm not so sure he is with ownership.
This.
And yet, it was only a couple of weeks ago where Joe Judge had initiated some sort of coup and was making all of the decisions in one big autonomous vacuum.
added other coaches besides Kitchens who have experience in different style of offenses. I think the onus is on Garrett to adapt and change his philosophy somewhat.
Even Saban figured out you need an offense that can drop 40 or 50 sometimes.
As bad or worse as they did on offense in 2020 you bet your ass he is.
Barring the defense regressing in a big way (unlikely), it would also mean the team has a hugely disappointing season.
It's no accident that Judge rearranged his offensive coaching staff this off-season.
Garrett is more on the hot seat than anyone else in the organization IMO...that includes Jones and Gettleman btw.
gets surrounded and protected by a myriad of excuses - Covid, inexperienced OL, new OC, new gameplans, injuries, weather, growing pains, schedule, Colonial Pipeline, etc - shouldn't Garrett be afforded the same benefits of the doubt?
is that this is Mara's guy. And I believe Mara thinks he is way smarter of a football guy than he actually is. Thus I can see there being an explicit or implicit understanding that Garret isn't going anywhere
Oddly enough I don't think that's the case here. I think it's more Mara loyalty/old boys network. His father was a former player and coach for the Giants, and Garrett himself is a former player on the Giants, including on the Superbowl 35 losing roster.
I think he is with Judge but I'm not so sure he is with ownership.
This.
And yet, it was only a couple of weeks ago where Joe Judge had initiated some sort of coup and was making all of the decisions in one big autonomous vacuum.
gets surrounded and protected by a myriad of excuses - Covid, inexperienced OL, new OC, new gameplans, injuries, weather, growing pains, schedule, Colonial Pipeline, etc - shouldn't Garrett be afforded the same benefits of the doubt?
By who, fans or the employers?
Personally i'm indifferent on Garrett. I think a lot of what was stated the the thread earlier this week or last (i forget which BBIer) was true - the gameplan last year was to limit mistakes and shorten games. I don't think Garrett is stupid but like Jones, what he had to work with was very limited. He also looks a lot better with 2 more wins that we threw away (1 by Jones and the other by Engram).
And you can say they are excuses all you want but I see them as reasons. Sports are about circumstance and navigating them. Not getting enough sleep is an excuse, having a shitty OL or WR's that don't get separation are definitive reasons.
all that much given the offensive line, Jones' ball security issues, and Giants receivers inability to get separation. I think this year is Garrett's chance to reveal his offense and then we can judge whether it's creative enough to win.
gets surrounded and protected by a myriad of excuses - Covid, inexperienced OL, new OC, new gameplans, injuries, weather, growing pains, schedule, Colonial Pipeline, etc - shouldn't Garrett be afforded the same benefits of the doubt?
By who, fans or the employers?
Personally i'm indifferent on Garrett. I think a lot of what was stated the the thread earlier this week or last (i forget which BBIer) was true - the gameplan last year was to limit mistakes and shorten games. I don't think Garrett is stupid but like Jones, what he had to work with was very limited. He also looks a lot better with 2 more wins that we threw away (1 by Jones and the other by Engram).
And you can say they are excuses all you want but I see them as reasons. Sports are about circumstance and navigating them. Not getting enough sleep is an excuse, having a shitty OL or WR's that don't get separation are definitive reasons.
Well, anyone. But directly to BBIers. Particularly those - and I don't think you are one - who have absolutely marched out most of the excuses I listed. It's been a steady barrage almost daily since the season ended.
You and I agree on your second paragraph about Garrett. I'm between agnostic and being a soft supporter of him as the OC. And I completely agree how he approached last year and some of the losses due to poor execution. Which is why I actually think he did a pretty damn good job under the circumstances and should be less on the hot seat than Jones.
Where you and I disagree - I think - is the general expectation of Jones.
You seem more in the camp that Jones can't be truly evaluated without much more infantry around him and I'm more in the camp that I expect Jones to be the guy who can lift the play of his offense.
Well, we brought in more infantry this year and we are certainly about to find if Jones can be that man with the added support.
As I have said all too often, I do worry that the OL is still a major question mark and that could adversely effect the season. Hopefully the decision makers are right about this group and they are up for the task.
is that it’s fair to evaluate him now, which shows he likely won’t ever be elite. And if you agree on that which I think most would, that he’s going to need help.
I don’t know how good he can be but I do know that he’s had an uphill battle trying to prove his worth, which is the “circumstance” comment I made earlier.
I just don’t harp on it daily is all, it’s mind numbing after a while. I actually agree with you guys a lot on Jones I just talk about many other things because it gets tiresome after a while,
chatted with Go Terps on the thread about the QB from Ohio
about how an offensive approach like Ohio's might benefit Jones. Also watched 'Bama's offensive approach with some awe while checking out Smith and Waddle pre-draft. 'Bama is like chess while we're like checkers. I actually like Garrett for reasons that go back to his earliest days in college but to say our offense could be a lot more deceptive and confusing to the D - I think that's a fact until proven otherwise. And we have the weapons to get it done now.
And Garrett still has a job I'd be shocked and pissed.
I won't get into the math again, but Jones should have enough resources now - assuming relatively good health across the entire offense - to produce at least 27 TD passes.
I have no concern that Garrett can create an offense to put Jones is position do that. My concern is if Jones can execute.
Hell, if Toney is the real deal and SB is 95% of his former self, Jones should be able to get half of those 27 TDs through bubble screens and check downs.
RE: RE: If Daniel Jones doesn’t double his TD total
And Garrett still has a job I'd be shocked and pissed.
I won't get into the math again, but Jones should have enough resources now - assuming relatively good health across the entire offense - to produce at least 27 TD passes.
I have no concern that Garrett can create an offense to put Jones is position do that. My concern is if Jones can execute.
Hell, if Toney is the real deal and SB is 95% of his former self, Jones should be able to get half of those 27 TDs through bubble screens and check downs.
Im just curious as to why? Jones was a far more effective weapon in 2019 in a more modern NFL offense. If you cant see that Garrett has a lot of work to do CONCEPT wise then I dont think you know what youre watching..no offense.
If the Offense takes off this year, he will be hired away by another team. If the Offense tanks then he likely gets pushed out at the end of the year and catches on as an OC somewhere else. The list of former HC working as OC or DC in the NFL is pretty substantial.
RE: RE: RE: If Daniel Jones doesn’t double his TD total
Im just curious as to why? Jones was a far more effective weapon in 2019 in a more modern NFL offense. If you cant see that Garrett has a lot of work to do CONCEPT wise then I dont think you know what youre watching..no offense.
Why what exactly? No being a wise ass, just trying to follow where you are going...
I agree that Jones looked better and was more effective in 2019. I just don't know why.
-- Did DCs figure out the best way to defend the Jones?
-- Where the injuries that impactful?
-- Did the receivers take a step back?
-- Is Garrett really a dinosaur as an OC?
-- Etc.
both players and coaches to fit their confirmation bias, so take everything with a grain of salt, including my opinions below...
However, I dont think its disputable that Jason Garrett's 2020 offense left a lot to be desired, and big changes need to be made if they are going to score with the better teams in the league.
The Good:
-What I liked about Garrett's offense was his feel and rhythm in the run game, which got substantially better as the year went on. His mix of inside runs out of the gun, power outside when they were in tight, and exploiting running lanes on defenses were all very good.
-His use of RPOs, jet sweeps, screens, and QB run options were also arguably the most explosive plays the Giants were able to muster last year. All good stuff and in games where almost nothing worked, this helped keep the chains moving and lead to a lot of their (paltry number of) touchdowns.
The Bad:
-This offense screams 2010 offensive football in every way. Look at some of the better offensive minds in today's game like KC..its just another level of route concepts in the passing game.
-Jones analytically EXCELS in the deep passing game - specifically outside the hashes, 15+ yards down the field. There is a difference between protecting your young OL and QB with check downs, and going too far in the other direction with NO DEEP routes on a given play. As bad as the skill players were in their last ranked separation ratings, they werent given any favors by consistently running 4 short curls that the defense could sit on.
-Jone's turnovers come off of short passes. Theyre easy to read, and easy to cover. This also played into the fact that he was the most blitzed QB in all of football. Its not just individual OL matchups that broke down. Many times they ran plays with no one running more than 10 yards down the field. I dont care who your OL is, thats inexcusable.
-In the 1 game Freddie Kitchens called with Colt McCoy at QB, the Giants actually had more than 1 guy running deep. The same OL that everyone maligns here held up decently, and if Jones was at QB I think we are in that game and hit on some big plays. The switch for Kitchens to offensive assistant is a big tell that Judge sees the same things and gives me hope.
TL:DR
-Garrett has a responsibility to design an offense that plays to Jone's STRENGTHS. Shurmur actually did a decent job of this. Half field reads with more 15+ yard concepts. Less max protect, 2-4 man curls that can be easily defended with 0 blitzes and sitting at the sticks. He does better reading defenses HIGH TO LOW, not short to high.
Its been a long time since Garrett has been an OC, and his offense showed its a bit stuck in the past. My hope is that Judge sees this and they collectively go into 2021 with a more aggressive mindset.
Try to maximize the chance of success given what’s on the field.
Look at the Giants last year. They realized in a few games their zone blocking was not going to work with this very unformed OL and then without SB. So they moved to duo (double teams) power blocking. We had no home run hitters, no RB that like SB was going to make someone miss in space and take it to the house. It was power running and ball control.
He also realized this OL was not going to hold up well for the deep passing game, so to throw deep he had to leave guys in to block and that means limited options in routes. Compound that with some guys that can’t get open easily, and limited receiving with our RBs.
So we tried to do what we could given those limitations and play good D. That worked some, but it’s not going to light up the scoreboard.
This year is a much more intriguing test. There’s a lot more to work with. Though I suspect it may take a few games to gel with so many new pieces.
Try to maximize the chance of success given what’s on the field.
Look at the Giants last year. They realized in a few games their zone blocking was not going to work with this very unformed OL and then without SB. So they moved to duo (double teams) power blocking. We had no home run hitters, no RB that like SB was going to make someone miss in space and take it to the house. It was power running and ball control.
He also realized this OL was not going to hold up well for the deep passing game, so to throw deep he had to leave guys in to block and that means limited options in routes. Compound that with some guys that can’t get open easily, and limited receiving with our RBs.
So we tried to do what we could given those limitations and play good D. That worked some, but it’s not going to light up the scoreboard.
This year is a much more intriguing test. There’s a lot more to work with. Though I suspect it may take a few games to gel with so many new pieces.
You can protect your OL and still challenge the defense more effectively downfield. It's not mutually exclusive.
Shurmur didn't have much more to work with, and yet Jones had success being aggressive in the passing game. I'd argue the OL had a tougher job due to the vanilla nature of the passing concepts.
Check out the all 22 on some games...if you're a DC playing the Giants and you blitzed everyone and covered the sticks you were going to win.
That's not how you protect your OL.
I think Garrett and Jones is a really bad marriage
You can protect your OL and still challenge the defense more effectively downfield. It's not mutually exclusive.
Shurmur didn't have much more to work with, and yet Jones had success being aggressive in the passing game. I'd argue the OL had a tougher job due to the vanilla nature of the passing concepts.
Being more aggressive led to success in the passing game. It also led to Jones scrambling or getting hit and fumbling. The offense under Garrett was hamstrung by Barkley being out and receivers that couldn't separate. Several times last season, the Giants were in close games and had a better TOP than the previous year.
It came at the expense of offensive stats and production, and of course the ire of the fans, some of who now look at 2019 as a terrible year for Jones for some odd reason, but the offense in 2020 likely was better for managing the game.
Having Barkley back and several more dynamic weapons should make things a lot better and give Garrett a lot more options for creativity while still managing the game.
You can protect your OL and still challenge the defense more effectively downfield. It's not mutually exclusive.
Shurmur didn't have much more to work with, and yet Jones had success being aggressive in the passing game. I'd argue the OL had a tougher job due to the vanilla nature of the passing concepts.
Being more aggressive led to success in the passing game. It also led to Jones scrambling or getting hit and fumbling. The offense under Garrett was hamstrung by Barkley being out and receivers that couldn't separate. Several times last season, the Giants were in close games and had a better TOP than the previous year.
It came at the expense of offensive stats and production, and of course the ire of the fans, some of who now look at 2019 as a terrible year for Jones for some odd reason, but the offense in 2020 likely was better for managing the game.
Having Barkley back and several more dynamic weapons should make things a lot better and give Garrett a lot more options for creativity while still managing the game.
I'm with ya Fats, but the won't win if they can't score more. It's just the nature of the modern NFL. I'm okay with him calling a ball control game, managing TOP etc., but my argument is that better passing concepts overall will genuinely help every aspect of the offense.
I think if you would ask Garrett himself he would say he has to improve that in 2021. I think it can work, but just having better players running the same plays this year isn't going to be enough.
Like I said, it's all opinion, but I'd take my chances with at least the threat of guys running down the field to ease teams blitzing and free up the box - which in turn will Help (not hurt) the protection.
turnovers, attempt to increase possession time, win field position, and keep the game close. I think this was the strategy agreed to by Judge and Garrett. They knew the best way to win with our talent gap, especially after losing Barkley, was to keep it close until the end and try to win the field position game.
This season I also believe they will open it up more. The OL has another year and did look better, the defense looked much better, Barkley is back, Golliday, and Jones has another year.
added other coaches besides Kitchens who have experience in different style of offenses. I think the onus is on Garrett to adapt and change his philosophy somewhat.
Even Saban figured out you need an offense that can drop 40 or 50 sometimes.
And yet, there’s not an offensive coordinator past or present that would be dropping 40/50 with the Giants 2020 personnel. Alabama having 5 star recruits backing up 5 star recruits at just about every position has some impact on the offense being so successful. Panthers hired Joe Brady, the hottest offensive mind coming out of the college ranks and their offense went from 21.3 ppg to 21.6ppg. Not trying to diminish the impact of great coaching schemes, but you absolutely need the horses to pull it off.
added other coaches besides Kitchens who have experience in different style of offenses. I think the onus is on Garrett to adapt and change his philosophy somewhat.
Even Saban figured out you need an offense that can drop 40 or 50 sometimes.
And yet, there’s not an offensive coordinator past or present that would be dropping 40/50 with the Giants 2020 personnel. Alabama having 5 star recruits backing up 5 star recruits at just about every position has some impact on the offense being so successful. Panthers hired Joe Brady, the hottest offensive mind coming out of the college ranks and their offense went from 21.3 ppg to 21.6ppg. Not trying to diminish the impact of great coaching schemes, but you absolutely need the horses to pull it off.
Correct, but 17 points a game is historically bad...they absolutely had enough talent to do better, and not tailoring your offense to your franchise QBs strengths is somewhat negligent.
I like Garrett, he's a smarter football mind than any of us will ever be, but let's not pretend he did a great job when his predecessor had a more efficient offense - and your QB was more effective as rookie.
There are reasons for this...it's why I'm a big believer in Jones.
You gotta admit, the Giants offense is horrible on the field, starting with Jones and going right on through to nearly every position. Dreck at the skills, dreck on the line, no depth. There’s many reasons the Giants offense is one of the worst in the NFL but Garrett is surely one of those reasons.
Good points above, especially regarding the endless fucking curl routes and Garrett’s three yards and a cloud dust offensive philosophy from like 1940. He’s a bright guy so maybe he’ll turn it around this season. He’s got a lot more talent at the skill positions. But it’s still gonna be Jones at QB1 and I don’t think there’s many, if any, O-co’s that can help with Jones. Look at Goff under McVay, sure, he could help with cutting the field in half and only two reads and all motion and everything else but still, at the end of the day, it’s Goff. Don’t think Garrett doesn’t know this too. Still, he should be getting more out of Jones then he did last season. I think Garrett is a classic example of a coach who won’t alter his scheme to fit his players.
Anyway, yeah, hard to see any way that Garrett’s coming back for a third season.
You gotta admit, the Giants offense is horrible on the field, starting with Jones and going right on through to nearly every position. Dreck at the skills, dreck on the line, no depth. There’s many reasons the Giants offense is one of the worst in the NFL but Garrett is surely one of those reasons.
Good points above, especially regarding the endless fucking curl routes and Garrett’s three yards and a cloud dust offensive philosophy from like 1940. He’s a bright guy so maybe he’ll turn it around this season. He’s got a lot more talent at the skill positions. But it’s still gonna be Jones at QB1 and I don’t think there’s many, if any, O-co’s that can help with Jones. Look at Goff under McVay, sure, he could help with cutting the field in half and only two reads and all motion and everything else but still, at the end of the day, it’s Goff. Don’t think Garrett doesn’t know this too. Still, he should be getting more out of Jones then he did last season. I think Garrett is a classic example of a coach who won’t alter his scheme to fit his players.
Anyway, yeah, hard to see any way that Garrett’s coming back for a third season.
Not sure if you're trolling but that extreme take on Jones while acknowledging how severe some of the other issues on the team were makes you a troll in my book.
You've made your mind up on a kid that has every opportunity to be a great player in this league. Hopes he makes you eat a big pile of crow.
I think he is with Judge but I'm not so sure he is with ownership.
And you believe this based on absolutely no evidence other than the narrative you've created in your head.
You don’t think the Mark Colombo thing caused some friction there? And the fact the offense was horrendous? And you don’t think the Garrett hiring was “influenced” by ownership?
that the trades and draft picks means that Judge runs the ship, while simultaneously claiming, that the presence of Garrett means that non-Judge elements run the ship.
was trying to lobby for his job by showing Jones could be productive with him. He took more aggressive chances and I think he created plays to highlight him. He also put him position to take unnecessary hits for a 1st year QB.
I agree with posters that part of the offenses struggles were from playing conservative to limit turnovers and the lack of talent.
gets surrounded and protected by a myriad of excuses - Covid, inexperienced OL, new OC, new gameplans, injuries, weather, growing pains, schedule, Colonial Pipeline, etc - shouldn't Garrett be afforded the same benefits of the doubt?
No because Garrett is the ultimate excuse. Why blame poor performance on the players for their lack of talent when there are perfectly good scapegoats around?
If the Giants offense is poor this year, it will be due to either injuries or the performance of the OL and quarterback. Character is about accountability. The players own their performance - not the coaches. Deflecting blame from the true source of the problem is the surest way to lose the team...
is now far more entrenched in player acquisition & draft decisions in Yr 2 while also believing Garrett was internally-recommended to be part of his staff because of his experience level and familiarity within the NFC East.
is now far more entrenched in player acquisition & draft decisions in Yr 2 while also believing Garrett was internally-recommended to be part of his staff because of his experience level and familiarity within the NFC East.
Why would it?
It's twisty to say he has control over one (very general) part but not the intimate workings of his own staff. And, you just compared the current to the situation at the time of his hiring. When you bring it to the present, it's an internally contradictory position.
RE: Again, it's a really challenging argument to make
that the trades and draft picks means that Judge runs the ship, while simultaneously claiming, that the presence of Garrett means that non-Judge elements run the ship.
I agree. I think the hire itself was Mara influenced but I don’t think that’s going to keep his job safe if he stinks. If Judge has a better solution for OC I think he gets it.
Here are the skill position guys that had at his disposal to try and generate offense:
WR - A washed up Tate/a banged up Slayton/a banged up Shepard are his top three followed by D. Rattley, CJ Board, Austin Mack.
He's forced to feature a TE that has serious issues concentrating on catching the football backed up L. Toilolo (a blocking TE that struggled to block) and K. Smith.
His stable of RB include Wayne Gallman (JAG to the point that they brought in off the streets:)ALfred Morris, D. Freeman. And Dion Lewis that couldn't beat me in a foot race.
Tell me - how are you going to scheme those guys into more points?
There's no amount of shifts, motion, jet-sweeps, misdirection, mesh routes or anything else that going to make that machine go.
they have to call him Dimes b/c every throw better be on the dime since his receivers can't get open....except for one guy - and he has issues catching it.
is now far more entrenched in player acquisition & draft decisions in Yr 2 while also believing Garrett was internally-recommended to be part of his staff because of his experience level and familiarity within the NFC East.
Why would it?
It's twisty to say he has control over one (very general) part but not the intimate workings of his own staff. And, you just compared the current to the situation at the time of his hiring. When you bring it to the present, it's an internally contradictory position.
You are the one seemingly being twisty.
Of course he has control over his staff but, first of all, that has nothing to do with his deeper involvement in player acquisition as you are trying to insinuate.
And second, how hard is it to contemplate Mara wanted Judge to add some experienced guys to his coaching staff, Garrett was specifically recommended internally although it was still Judge's own choice. And that Garrett's performance may not be meeting all of Judge's expectations but he is giving him a year 2. Is it more than that?
RE: RE: RE: Shouldn't be challenging at all to contemplate that Judge
how hard is it to contemplate Mara wanted Judge to add some experienced guys to his coaching staff, Garrett was specifically recommended internally although it was still Judge's own choice. And that Garrett's performance may not be meeting all of Judge's expectations but he is giving him a year 2. Is it more than that?
yeah I believe the Garrett hire was one that was done from up above. Like a tutor for a coach (Judge) who is still using training wheels. I felt like this was the one coaching decision that was not made by Judge... but rather he was convinced to go in this direction from a mentorship perspective.
When Garrett was there. Leads me to belief his conservative passing game last season had more to do with personnel than philosophy.
He's traditionally had a top OL and run game, a mobile QB, a top TE and usually above average (sometimes great) WR corps. The difference in what he had in Dallas to year 1 as a Giant is as much of a 180 as one could have.
He does need to find a way to generate offense despite those differences, but it isn't easy. And i'm not sure a different OC comes in last season and gets us to score much more than we did given the same circumstances.
I look at it this way, the bottom 5 teams in scoring were the Jets, Giants, Jags, Broncos and Bengals - are we blaming their OC's too or are we looking at the talent on offense and pointing out how deficient they are? Bengals would be the outlier since it was a Burrow injury that caused it (although they did score 10 points or less 4x under him in 10 games).
Here are the skill position guys that had at his disposal to try and generate offense:
WR - A washed up Tate/a banged up Slayton/a banged up Shepard are his top three followed by D. Rattley, CJ Board, Austin Mack.
He's forced to feature a TE that has serious issues concentrating on catching the football backed up L. Toilolo (a blocking TE that struggled to block) and K. Smith.
His stable of RB include Wayne Gallman (JAG to the point that they brought in off the streets:)ALfred Morris, D. Freeman. And Dion Lewis that couldn't beat me in a foot race.
Tell me - how are you going to scheme those guys into more points?
There's no amount of shifts, motion, jet-sweeps, misdirection, mesh routes or anything else that going to make that machine go.
Oddly left off this list is Garrett had a second year QB that came out in year 2 and continued to put the ball in harm's way with his play. So Garrett adjusted his gameplans for DJ around mid-season ...
RE: Again, it's a really challenging argument to make
that the trades and draft picks means that Judge runs the ship, while simultaneously claiming, that the presence of Garrett means that non-Judge elements run the ship.
Spock might say it's "illogical".
Peace be with you.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Shouldn't be challenging at all to contemplate that Judge
how hard is it to contemplate Mara wanted Judge to add some experienced guys to his coaching staff, Garrett was specifically recommended internally although it was still Judge's own choice. And that Garrett's performance may not be meeting all of Judge's expectations but he is giving him a year 2. Is it more than that?
yeah I believe the Garrett hire was one that was done from up above. Like a tutor for a coach (Judge) who is still using training wheels. I felt like this was the one coaching decision that was not made by Judge... but rather he was convinced to go in this direction from a mentorship perspective.
That may be true, but it doesn't mean that in year 2 Judge is going to be forced to keep Garrett if things aren't working out.
that the trades and draft picks means that Judge runs the ship, while simultaneously claiming, that the presence of Garrett means that non-Judge elements run the ship.
Spock might say it's "illogical".
Peace be with you.
It's illogical because it's a made up a premise.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Shouldn't be challenging at all to contemplate that Judge
how hard is it to contemplate Mara wanted Judge to add some experienced guys to his coaching staff, Garrett was specifically recommended internally although it was still Judge's own choice. And that Garrett's performance may not be meeting all of Judge's expectations but he is giving him a year 2. Is it more than that?
yeah I believe the Garrett hire was one that was done from up above. Like a tutor for a coach (Judge) who is still using training wheels. I felt like this was the one coaching decision that was not made by Judge... but rather he was convinced to go in this direction from a mentorship perspective.
That may be true, but it doesn't mean that in year 2 Judge is going to be forced to keep Garrett if things aren't working out.
Are acknowledging just how bad the play design in the passing game was last year.
Well, it depends on how much you want to factor in injuries and lack of talent into the equation. Some people think its merely an excuse, others see it as a significant reason.
I'll ask again, why weren't the rest of the bottom 5 offenses scoring more, bad OCs? Patriots, Eagles and Redskins round out the 8 teams that failed to average 2 scores a game - all bad OC's?
Poor offense talent (which includes the QB since I know that's a trigger) and injuries (including depth) is the more likely reason.
RE: RE: RE: Again, it's a really challenging argument to make
that the trades and draft picks means that Judge runs the ship, while simultaneously claiming, that the presence of Garrett means that non-Judge elements run the ship.
Spock might say it's "illogical".
Peace be with you.
It's illogical because it's a made up a premise.
Made up?
I know that you didn't miss the many many threads where people made the unsubstantiated but, for them absolute, claim, that the draft and the trades where proof that Judge had the keys and the rest of management was cowed into agreement by his awesomeness. I know that you didn't miss those threads because i saw you post on them. If Judge is running the show and he didn't want Garrett on the team, then he would be gone by this afternoon.
Are acknowledging just how bad the play design in the passing game was last year.
Well, it depends on how much you want to factor in injuries and lack of talent into the equation. Some people think its merely an excuse, others see it as a significant reason.
I'll ask again, why weren't the rest of the bottom 5 offenses scoring more, bad OCs? Patriots, Eagles and Redskins round out the 8 teams that failed to average 2 scores a game - all bad OC's?
Poor offense talent (which includes the QB since I know that's a trigger) and injuries (including depth) is the more likely reason.
You gotta admit, the Giants offense is horrible on the field, starting with Jones and going right on through to nearly every position. Dreck at the skills, dreck on the line, no depth. There’s many reasons the Giants offense is one of the worst in the NFL but Garrett is surely one of those reasons.
Good points above, especially regarding the endless fucking curl routes and Garrett’s three yards and a cloud dust offensive philosophy from like 1940. He’s a bright guy so maybe he’ll turn it around this season. He’s got a lot more talent at the skill positions. But it’s still gonna be Jones at QB1 and I don’t think there’s many, if any, O-co’s that can help with Jones. Look at Goff under McVay, sure, he could help with cutting the field in half and only two reads and all motion and everything else but still, at the end of the day, it’s Goff. Don’t think Garrett doesn’t know this too. Still, he should be getting more out of Jones then he did last season. I think Garrett is a classic example of a coach who won’t alter his scheme to fit his players.
Anyway, yeah, hard to see any way that Garrett’s coming back for a third season.
Not sure if you're trolling but that extreme take on Jones while acknowledging how severe some of the other issues on the team were makes you a troll in my book.
You've made your mind up on a kid that has every opportunity to be a great player in this league. Hopes he makes you eat a big pile of crow.
Not trolling at all. When I write that Garrett is a bad O-co, when I write that the line and skill positions are dreck, that’s me acknowledging that Jones hasn’t had much to work with. But, even with these considerations my assessment of Jones is that he isn’t a viable NFL QB1. I quickly add, I certainly hope that I am wrong. I’m not rooting against the Giants or Jones or anyone here. I just don’t see anything to indicate that Jones is more than a backup. I understand why that’s perceived as an extreme take but I really just think that’s what the facts and objective evaluation support. I guess it comes down to this, I *hope* Jones is awesome and successful as the Giants QB1, what I’ve seen to this point doesn’t make *think* this is a likely outcome.
You are going extreme for some reason to make a point
Recent changes in behavior as to player acquisition/draft are indeed being noticed. And many posters are surmising it has a lot to do with Judge's influence into the process. Why?...because its logical as to timing, comments being publicly made from those within the FO and following them, and the profile of the changes.
Why that is being couched by you that those posters are saying Judge absolutely "has the keys" and is running the entire show while cowing the rest of the front office is the question. Where are you going with these extremes?
Last year was an emotional time for him. He was with the Dallas Cowboys for a long time. He gets fired. He immediately ends up with their biggest rival (competitor in real world speak) in a lesser role.
He gets to bring Colombo with him - but we know how that ended up. There were also rumors early in the year Garrett planned on the Giants being a 1-and-done stop back to a Head Coaching position. He then oversaw one of the least-productive offenses in the league. There were rumors of tension between he and Judge.
Well.....here we are. Where is Garrett's head at? Kitchens is looming, with an increased role. Does he just want out, or is he fully invested?
That Jason Garrett, who coached one of the highest powered and successful offenses in the NFL for a decade, suddenly didn't know how to scheme an effective offense in 2020? OR That the lack of talent on the entire offensive side of the ball, led by a quarterback who has made fatal mistakes on a regular basis, required a slimmed down version of an NFL offense?
Again, we can hope for the best given the upgrades at the skill positions in 2021. But the OL and quarterback are exactly the same. If the scheme is bad this year, it will be because the coaching staff is not confident that there has been requisite improvement in these six positions. It will not be due to the sudden loss of creativity in the mind of its offensive coordinator.
RE: I believe that Garrett purposefully reduced the game plan to limit
turnovers, attempt to increase possession time, win field position, and keep the game close. I think this was the strategy agreed to by Judge and Garrett. They knew the best way to win with our talent gap, especially after losing Barkley, was to keep it close until the end and try to win the field position game.
This season I also believe they will open it up more. The OL has another year and did look better, the defense looked much better, Barkley is back, Golliday, and Jones has another year.
I don't think Garret is on the hotseat
Love rational takes like this that don't tread into weird and manufactured dramatic crap.
I also don't get the logic that Garrett is a bad fit with Jones yet he got every ounce of talent and ability out of the likes of Romo and Dak. You couldn't conjure up two more apt QBs that match the skill set of Jones. But Jones and Garrett are a bad marriage? Why? Because Jones didn't set the NFL on fire on their first year?
Answer me this, when is it ok NOT to fire the OC and QB after one year? Is it ever?
That Jason Garrett, who coached one of the highest powered and successful offenses in the NFL for a decade, suddenly didn't know how to scheme an effective offense in 2020? OR That the lack of talent on the entire offensive side of the ball, led by a quarterback who has made fatal mistakes on a regular basis, required a slimmed down version of an NFL offense?
Right. Garrett is no fool. He's been in the NFL, counting his playing days, for 30+ years. And around some of the game's great minds.
Look, maybe I'm being naive on this part, but I have to imagine he has spoken with Jones to get input on the offense and plays that Jones prefers. So I'm not quite buying - yet - this characterization that Garrett is trying to stick a square peg (Jones) into a round hole (his offense).
I'm betting Garrett AND Judge have more of an idea what they have in Jones and, along with more resources for '21, will design an offense that fits. Then it will be up to Jones to execute.
That Jason Garrett, who coached one of the highest powered and successful offenses in the NFL for a decade, suddenly didn't know how to scheme an effective offense in 2020? OR That the lack of talent on the entire offensive side of the ball, led by a quarterback who has made fatal mistakes on a regular basis, required a slimmed down version of an NFL offense?
Right. Garrett is no fool. He's been in the NFL, counting his playing days, for 30+ years. And around some of the game's great minds.
Look, maybe I'm being naive on this part, but I have to imagine he has spoken with Jones to get input on the offense and plays that Jones prefers. So I'm not quite buying - yet - this characterization that Garrett is trying to stick a square peg (Jones) into a round hole (his offense).
I'm betting Garrett AND Judge have more of an idea what they have in Jones and, along with more resources for '21, will design an offense that fits. Then it will be up to Jones to execute.
That Jason Garrett, who coached one of the highest powered and successful offenses in the NFL for a decade, suddenly didn't know how to scheme an effective offense in 2020? OR That the lack of talent on the entire offensive side of the ball, led by a quarterback who has made fatal mistakes on a regular basis, required a slimmed down version of an NFL offense?
Right. Garrett is no fool. He's been in the NFL, counting his playing days, for 30+ years. And around some of the game's great minds.
Look, maybe I'm being naive on this part, but I have to imagine he has spoken with Jones to get input on the offense and plays that Jones prefers. So I'm not quite buying - yet - this characterization that Garrett is trying to stick a square peg (Jones) into a round hole (his offense).
I'm betting Garrett AND Judge have more of an idea what they have in Jones and, along with more resources for '21, will design an offense that fits. Then it will be up to Jones to execute.
Agree with all of this, and still can surmise Judge may also be lukewarm as to some of Garrett's performance without the reference that he doesn't know what he is doing.
Judge stuck himself right into the OL situation last year when it wasn't going the way he wanted and ruffled feathers...so logical to think he would do it again as needed.
That Jason Garrett, who coached one of the highest powered and successful offenses in the NFL for a decade, suddenly didn't know how to scheme an effective offense in 2020? OR That the lack of talent on the entire offensive side of the ball, led by a quarterback who has made fatal mistakes on a regular basis, required a slimmed down version of an NFL offense?
Right. Garrett is no fool. He's been in the NFL, counting his playing days, for 30+ years. And around some of the game's great minds.
Look, maybe I'm being naive on this part, but I have to imagine he has spoken with Jones to get input on the offense and plays that Jones prefers. So I'm not quite buying - yet - this characterization that Garrett is trying to stick a square peg (Jones) into a round hole (his offense).
I'm betting Garrett AND Judge have more of an idea what they have in Jones and, along with more resources for '21, will design an offense that fits. Then it will be up to Jones to execute.
I agree 100%.
THey are both undoubtedly hitching their wagon to his star.
And I'll take it a step further and I think you'll agree...if his star fades - it should cost everyone their jobs.
That Jason Garrett, who coached one of the highest powered and successful offenses in the NFL for a decade, suddenly didn't know how to scheme an effective offense in 2020? OR That the lack of talent on the entire offensive side of the ball, led by a quarterback who has made fatal mistakes on a regular basis, required a slimmed down version of an NFL offense?
Right. Garrett is no fool. He's been in the NFL, counting his playing days, for 30+ years. And around some of the game's great minds.
Look, maybe I'm being naive on this part, but I have to imagine he has spoken with Jones to get input on the offense and plays that Jones prefers. So I'm not quite buying - yet - this characterization that Garrett is trying to stick a square peg (Jones) into a round hole (his offense).
I'm betting Garrett AND Judge have more of an idea what they have in Jones and, along with more resources for '21, will design an offense that fits. Then it will be up to Jones to execute.
I agree 100%.
THey are both undoubtedly hitching their wagon to his star.
And I'll take it a step further and I think you'll agree...if his star fades - it should cost everyone their jobs.
So if Jones does not improve it is the coaching staff's fault? Gettleman has the full responsibility for DJ now and will be fired if Jones fails. If so, Judge should get a pass and deserves a chance with his own guy. And blaming Garrett, who has successfully developed Romo and Dak, is ridiculous.
Those guys are legit QB1s who worked under Garrett as an HC but they were also winners in college. They were not high draft picks or blue chips but they were both much more accomplished in college than Jones. And especially in Daks case, they both played in more challenging college programs than Jones and had more success. Kind of goes back to what many have said, Garrett isn’t a joke or anything, like maybe McAd’oh was a joke, but he isn’t a good fit for Jones. My add is that Jones wouldn’t be a good fit for most; maybe Andy Reid or McVay or Shanny could scheme him to credibility above .500 but he seems to have a Goff like limit in his potential.
Those guys are legit QB1s who worked under Garrett as an HC but they were also winners in college. They were not high draft picks or blue chips but they were both much more accomplished in college than Jones. And especially in Daks case, they both played in more challenging college programs than Jones and had more success. Kind of goes back to what many have said, Garrett isn’t a joke or anything, like maybe McAd’oh was a joke, but he isn’t a good fit for Jones. My add is that Jones wouldn’t be a good fit for most; maybe Andy Reid or McVay or Shanny could scheme him to credibility above .500 but he seems to have a Goff like limit in his potential.
He probably developed them quite a bit, don't short change it just because of the college production. There was a reason why they were picked where they were. Its like saying Brady wasn't developed all that much and it just happened.
I view Jones/Garrett similarly - both need to up their games to stick around long term, only for Garrett if we succeed on offense he's going to leave to be a HC. Similarly if they fail, I believe Judge will do his best to lobby for both being replaced, and in Garrett's case I can see an in-season firing if we replicate 2020 for an extended period of time.
RE: offense … hamstrung Barkley out & receivers that couldn't separate
is that this is Mara's guy. And I believe Mara thinks he is way smarter of a football guy than he actually is. Thus I can see there being an explicit or implicit understanding that Garret isn't going anywhere
I 100% agree Mara forced this but I'm not sure Mara thinks he's a football genius. I do think he runs the organization like a small family business preferring the hiring of familiar ppl if they're available.
Garrett was and still probably is the fall back option if JJ ultimately fails which just fits Mara's generally awful decision making perfectly
is a really weird take to me. Is that the same for any owners who’s team has been in a rut? What’s he doing now that’s different than 2007-11?
The Giants operate a certain way, a way that won them a bunch of super bowls. There’s modifications they will make but they aren’t going to drastically deviate from how they operate.
That said I don’t see Mara sticking with Garrett through two bad seasons just because. He fired Shurmur after two, there’s no reason to think he wouldnt move off of Garrett if he shits the bed.
Remote chance at middle ground but I still think the promotion of Kitchens speaks volumes of what Judge thinks.
Kitchens in his new role would not be a change in continuity. You might have slightly different play calls in certain situations, but I imagine the terminology and such will be similar. That is probably why the Giants rearranged their coaching staff to get Kitchens more involved in the weekly gameplanning so if a change needed to be made it wouldn't hurt Jones's development.
ding, ding, ding, ding....this is the answer
This.
if theres a change i'd bet it will be before tc.
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I think he is with Judge but I'm not so sure he is with ownership.
This.
And yet, it was only a couple of weeks ago where Joe Judge had initiated some sort of coup and was making all of the decisions in one big autonomous vacuum.
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In comment 15263242 Danny Kanell said:
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I think he is with Judge but I'm not so sure he is with ownership.
This.
And yet, it was only a couple of weeks ago where Joe Judge had initiated some sort of coup and was making all of the decisions in one big autonomous vacuum.
That's the hope.
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In comment 15263298 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15263242 Danny Kanell said:
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I think he is with Judge but I'm not so sure he is with ownership.
This.
And yet, it was only a couple of weeks ago where Joe Judge had initiated some sort of coup and was making all of the decisions in one big autonomous vacuum.
That's the hope.
I'm pretty sure that many it was a certainty.
They did? Are did they suggest what the preference was?
Even Saban figured out you need an offense that can drop 40 or 50 sometimes.
Barring the defense regressing in a big way (unlikely), it would also mean the team has a hugely disappointing season.
It's no accident that Judge rearranged his offensive coaching staff this off-season.
Garrett is more on the hot seat than anyone else in the organization IMO...that includes Jones and Gettleman btw.
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They did? Are did they suggest what the preference was?
Or
not "are"...
Offensive Line
Oddly enough I don't think that's the case here. I think it's more Mara loyalty/old boys network. His father was a former player and coach for the Giants, and Garrett himself is a former player on the Giants, including on the Superbowl 35 losing roster.
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In comment 15263332 Bill L said:
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In comment 15263298 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15263242 Danny Kanell said:
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I think he is with Judge but I'm not so sure he is with ownership.
This.
And yet, it was only a couple of weeks ago where Joe Judge had initiated some sort of coup and was making all of the decisions in one big autonomous vacuum.
That's the hope.
I'm pretty sure that many it was a certainty.
I didn't.
By who, fans or the employers?
Personally i'm indifferent on Garrett. I think a lot of what was stated the the thread earlier this week or last (i forget which BBIer) was true - the gameplan last year was to limit mistakes and shorten games. I don't think Garrett is stupid but like Jones, what he had to work with was very limited. He also looks a lot better with 2 more wins that we threw away (1 by Jones and the other by Engram).
And you can say they are excuses all you want but I see them as reasons. Sports are about circumstance and navigating them. Not getting enough sleep is an excuse, having a shitty OL or WR's that don't get separation are definitive reasons.
Kitchens ready to take over if the offense sputters.
I don't see Graham leaving mid season as the only way he goes is to a HC gig.
Garrett on the other hand.... Make your own judgement there.
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gets surrounded and protected by a myriad of excuses - Covid, inexperienced OL, new OC, new gameplans, injuries, weather, growing pains, schedule, Colonial Pipeline, etc - shouldn't Garrett be afforded the same benefits of the doubt?
By who, fans or the employers?
Personally i'm indifferent on Garrett. I think a lot of what was stated the the thread earlier this week or last (i forget which BBIer) was true - the gameplan last year was to limit mistakes and shorten games. I don't think Garrett is stupid but like Jones, what he had to work with was very limited. He also looks a lot better with 2 more wins that we threw away (1 by Jones and the other by Engram).
And you can say they are excuses all you want but I see them as reasons. Sports are about circumstance and navigating them. Not getting enough sleep is an excuse, having a shitty OL or WR's that don't get separation are definitive reasons.
Well, anyone. But directly to BBIers. Particularly those - and I don't think you are one - who have absolutely marched out most of the excuses I listed. It's been a steady barrage almost daily since the season ended.
You and I agree on your second paragraph about Garrett. I'm between agnostic and being a soft supporter of him as the OC. And I completely agree how he approached last year and some of the losses due to poor execution. Which is why I actually think he did a pretty damn good job under the circumstances and should be less on the hot seat than Jones.
Where you and I disagree - I think - is the general expectation of Jones.
You seem more in the camp that Jones can't be truly evaluated without much more infantry around him and I'm more in the camp that I expect Jones to be the guy who can lift the play of his offense.
Well, we brought in more infantry this year and we are certainly about to find if Jones can be that man with the added support.
As I have said all too often, I do worry that the OL is still a major question mark and that could adversely effect the season. Hopefully the decision makers are right about this group and they are up for the task.
I don’t know how good he can be but I do know that he’s had an uphill battle trying to prove his worth, which is the “circumstance” comment I made earlier.
I just don’t harp on it daily is all, it’s mind numbing after a while. I actually agree with you guys a lot on Jones I just talk about many other things because it gets tiresome after a while,
I won't get into the math again, but Jones should have enough resources now - assuming relatively good health across the entire offense - to produce at least 27 TD passes.
I have no concern that Garrett can create an offense to put Jones is position do that. My concern is if Jones can execute.
Hell, if Toney is the real deal and SB is 95% of his former self, Jones should be able to get half of those 27 TDs through bubble screens and check downs.
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And Garrett still has a job I'd be shocked and pissed.
I won't get into the math again, but Jones should have enough resources now - assuming relatively good health across the entire offense - to produce at least 27 TD passes.
I have no concern that Garrett can create an offense to put Jones is position do that. My concern is if Jones can execute.
Hell, if Toney is the real deal and SB is 95% of his former self, Jones should be able to get half of those 27 TDs through bubble screens and check downs.
Im just curious as to why? Jones was a far more effective weapon in 2019 in a more modern NFL offense. If you cant see that Garrett has a lot of work to do CONCEPT wise then I dont think you know what youre watching..no offense.
Im just curious as to why? Jones was a far more effective weapon in 2019 in a more modern NFL offense. If you cant see that Garrett has a lot of work to do CONCEPT wise then I dont think you know what youre watching..no offense.
Why what exactly? No being a wise ass, just trying to follow where you are going...
I agree that Jones looked better and was more effective in 2019. I just don't know why.
-- Did DCs figure out the best way to defend the Jones?
-- Where the injuries that impactful?
-- Did the receivers take a step back?
-- Is Garrett really a dinosaur as an OC?
-- Etc.
However, I dont think its disputable that Jason Garrett's 2020 offense left a lot to be desired, and big changes need to be made if they are going to score with the better teams in the league.
The Good:
-What I liked about Garrett's offense was his feel and rhythm in the run game, which got substantially better as the year went on. His mix of inside runs out of the gun, power outside when they were in tight, and exploiting running lanes on defenses were all very good.
-His use of RPOs, jet sweeps, screens, and QB run options were also arguably the most explosive plays the Giants were able to muster last year. All good stuff and in games where almost nothing worked, this helped keep the chains moving and lead to a lot of their (paltry number of) touchdowns.
The Bad:
-This offense screams 2010 offensive football in every way. Look at some of the better offensive minds in today's game like KC..its just another level of route concepts in the passing game.
-Jones analytically EXCELS in the deep passing game - specifically outside the hashes, 15+ yards down the field. There is a difference between protecting your young OL and QB with check downs, and going too far in the other direction with NO DEEP routes on a given play. As bad as the skill players were in their last ranked separation ratings, they werent given any favors by consistently running 4 short curls that the defense could sit on.
-Jone's turnovers come off of short passes. Theyre easy to read, and easy to cover. This also played into the fact that he was the most blitzed QB in all of football. Its not just individual OL matchups that broke down. Many times they ran plays with no one running more than 10 yards down the field. I dont care who your OL is, thats inexcusable.
-In the 1 game Freddie Kitchens called with Colt McCoy at QB, the Giants actually had more than 1 guy running deep. The same OL that everyone maligns here held up decently, and if Jones was at QB I think we are in that game and hit on some big plays. The switch for Kitchens to offensive assistant is a big tell that Judge sees the same things and gives me hope.
TL:DR
-Garrett has a responsibility to design an offense that plays to Jone's STRENGTHS. Shurmur actually did a decent job of this. Half field reads with more 15+ yard concepts. Less max protect, 2-4 man curls that can be easily defended with 0 blitzes and sitting at the sticks. He does better reading defenses HIGH TO LOW, not short to high.
Its been a long time since Garrett has been an OC, and his offense showed its a bit stuck in the past. My hope is that Judge sees this and they collectively go into 2021 with a more aggressive mindset.
Look at the Giants last year. They realized in a few games their zone blocking was not going to work with this very unformed OL and then without SB. So they moved to duo (double teams) power blocking. We had no home run hitters, no RB that like SB was going to make someone miss in space and take it to the house. It was power running and ball control.
He also realized this OL was not going to hold up well for the deep passing game, so to throw deep he had to leave guys in to block and that means limited options in routes. Compound that with some guys that can’t get open easily, and limited receiving with our RBs.
So we tried to do what we could given those limitations and play good D. That worked some, but it’s not going to light up the scoreboard.
This year is a much more intriguing test. There’s a lot more to work with. Though I suspect it may take a few games to gel with so many new pieces.
Look at the Giants last year. They realized in a few games their zone blocking was not going to work with this very unformed OL and then without SB. So they moved to duo (double teams) power blocking. We had no home run hitters, no RB that like SB was going to make someone miss in space and take it to the house. It was power running and ball control.
He also realized this OL was not going to hold up well for the deep passing game, so to throw deep he had to leave guys in to block and that means limited options in routes. Compound that with some guys that can’t get open easily, and limited receiving with our RBs.
So we tried to do what we could given those limitations and play good D. That worked some, but it’s not going to light up the scoreboard.
This year is a much more intriguing test. There’s a lot more to work with. Though I suspect it may take a few games to gel with so many new pieces.
You can protect your OL and still challenge the defense more effectively downfield. It's not mutually exclusive.
Shurmur didn't have much more to work with, and yet Jones had success being aggressive in the passing game. I'd argue the OL had a tougher job due to the vanilla nature of the passing concepts.
Check out the all 22 on some games...if you're a DC playing the Giants and you blitzed everyone and covered the sticks you were going to win.
That's not how you protect your OL.
This is one thing that we can agree on. Hopefully we see him adapt for Jones sake.
I think you’re right. Hopefully the reports are true and Freddie Kitchens will have more influence in the offense.
Shurmur didn't have much more to work with, and yet Jones had success being aggressive in the passing game. I'd argue the OL had a tougher job due to the vanilla nature of the passing concepts.
Being more aggressive led to success in the passing game. It also led to Jones scrambling or getting hit and fumbling. The offense under Garrett was hamstrung by Barkley being out and receivers that couldn't separate. Several times last season, the Giants were in close games and had a better TOP than the previous year.
It came at the expense of offensive stats and production, and of course the ire of the fans, some of who now look at 2019 as a terrible year for Jones for some odd reason, but the offense in 2020 likely was better for managing the game.
Having Barkley back and several more dynamic weapons should make things a lot better and give Garrett a lot more options for creativity while still managing the game.
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You can protect your OL and still challenge the defense more effectively downfield. It's not mutually exclusive.
Shurmur didn't have much more to work with, and yet Jones had success being aggressive in the passing game. I'd argue the OL had a tougher job due to the vanilla nature of the passing concepts.
Being more aggressive led to success in the passing game. It also led to Jones scrambling or getting hit and fumbling. The offense under Garrett was hamstrung by Barkley being out and receivers that couldn't separate. Several times last season, the Giants were in close games and had a better TOP than the previous year.
It came at the expense of offensive stats and production, and of course the ire of the fans, some of who now look at 2019 as a terrible year for Jones for some odd reason, but the offense in 2020 likely was better for managing the game.
Having Barkley back and several more dynamic weapons should make things a lot better and give Garrett a lot more options for creativity while still managing the game.
I'm with ya Fats, but the won't win if they can't score more. It's just the nature of the modern NFL. I'm okay with him calling a ball control game, managing TOP etc., but my argument is that better passing concepts overall will genuinely help every aspect of the offense.
I think if you would ask Garrett himself he would say he has to improve that in 2021. I think it can work, but just having better players running the same plays this year isn't going to be enough.
Like I said, it's all opinion, but I'd take my chances with at least the threat of guys running down the field to ease teams blitzing and free up the box - which in turn will Help (not hurt) the protection.
This season I also believe they will open it up more. The OL has another year and did look better, the defense looked much better, Barkley is back, Golliday, and Jones has another year.
I don't think Garret is on the hotseat
Even Saban figured out you need an offense that can drop 40 or 50 sometimes.
And yet, there’s not an offensive coordinator past or present that would be dropping 40/50 with the Giants 2020 personnel. Alabama having 5 star recruits backing up 5 star recruits at just about every position has some impact on the offense being so successful. Panthers hired Joe Brady, the hottest offensive mind coming out of the college ranks and their offense went from 21.3 ppg to 21.6ppg. Not trying to diminish the impact of great coaching schemes, but you absolutely need the horses to pull it off.
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added other coaches besides Kitchens who have experience in different style of offenses. I think the onus is on Garrett to adapt and change his philosophy somewhat.
Even Saban figured out you need an offense that can drop 40 or 50 sometimes.
And yet, there’s not an offensive coordinator past or present that would be dropping 40/50 with the Giants 2020 personnel. Alabama having 5 star recruits backing up 5 star recruits at just about every position has some impact on the offense being so successful. Panthers hired Joe Brady, the hottest offensive mind coming out of the college ranks and their offense went from 21.3 ppg to 21.6ppg. Not trying to diminish the impact of great coaching schemes, but you absolutely need the horses to pull it off.
Correct, but 17 points a game is historically bad...they absolutely had enough talent to do better, and not tailoring your offense to your franchise QBs strengths is somewhat negligent.
I like Garrett, he's a smarter football mind than any of us will ever be, but let's not pretend he did a great job when his predecessor had a more efficient offense - and your QB was more effective as rookie.
There are reasons for this...it's why I'm a big believer in Jones.
Good points above, especially regarding the endless fucking curl routes and Garrett’s three yards and a cloud dust offensive philosophy from like 1940. He’s a bright guy so maybe he’ll turn it around this season. He’s got a lot more talent at the skill positions. But it’s still gonna be Jones at QB1 and I don’t think there’s many, if any, O-co’s that can help with Jones. Look at Goff under McVay, sure, he could help with cutting the field in half and only two reads and all motion and everything else but still, at the end of the day, it’s Goff. Don’t think Garrett doesn’t know this too. Still, he should be getting more out of Jones then he did last season. I think Garrett is a classic example of a coach who won’t alter his scheme to fit his players.
Anyway, yeah, hard to see any way that Garrett’s coming back for a third season.
Good points above, especially regarding the endless fucking curl routes and Garrett’s three yards and a cloud dust offensive philosophy from like 1940. He’s a bright guy so maybe he’ll turn it around this season. He’s got a lot more talent at the skill positions. But it’s still gonna be Jones at QB1 and I don’t think there’s many, if any, O-co’s that can help with Jones. Look at Goff under McVay, sure, he could help with cutting the field in half and only two reads and all motion and everything else but still, at the end of the day, it’s Goff. Don’t think Garrett doesn’t know this too. Still, he should be getting more out of Jones then he did last season. I think Garrett is a classic example of a coach who won’t alter his scheme to fit his players.
Anyway, yeah, hard to see any way that Garrett’s coming back for a third season.
Not sure if you're trolling but that extreme take on Jones while acknowledging how severe some of the other issues on the team were makes you a troll in my book.
You've made your mind up on a kid that has every opportunity to be a great player in this league. Hopes he makes you eat a big pile of crow.
Garrett's play designs and pay calling are subpar. Not the worst in the league but it is pretty bad.
He has weapons this year and the ability to do more than ever before.
If we go into this season seeing the same plays and the same play calling but with different guys at the skill positions, then he has to go.
If we go into this season and he has not created ways to get the ball into the hands of our play makers, then he has to go.
If we are at 3rd and 6 and I continue to see play designs where every route is deep and to the sideline... he has to go before the season ends.
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I think he is with Judge but I'm not so sure he is with ownership.
And you believe this based on absolutely no evidence other than the narrative you've created in your head.
You don’t think the Mark Colombo thing caused some friction there? And the fact the offense was horrendous? And you don’t think the Garrett hiring was “influenced” by ownership?
Pay attention, Milton.
I agree with posters that part of the offenses struggles were from playing conservative to limit turnovers and the lack of talent.
No because Garrett is the ultimate excuse. Why blame poor performance on the players for their lack of talent when there are perfectly good scapegoats around?
If the Giants offense is poor this year, it will be due to either injuries or the performance of the OL and quarterback. Character is about accountability. The players own their performance - not the coaches. Deflecting blame from the true source of the problem is the surest way to lose the team...
Why would it?
Why would it?
It's twisty to say he has control over one (very general) part but not the intimate workings of his own staff. And, you just compared the current to the situation at the time of his hiring. When you bring it to the present, it's an internally contradictory position.
I agree. I think the hire itself was Mara influenced but I don’t think that’s going to keep his job safe if he stinks. If Judge has a better solution for OC I think he gets it.
Here are the skill position guys that had at his disposal to try and generate offense:
WR - A washed up Tate/a banged up Slayton/a banged up Shepard are his top three followed by D. Rattley, CJ Board, Austin Mack.
He's forced to feature a TE that has serious issues concentrating on catching the football backed up L. Toilolo (a blocking TE that struggled to block) and K. Smith.
His stable of RB include Wayne Gallman (JAG to the point that they brought in off the streets:)ALfred Morris, D. Freeman. And Dion Lewis that couldn't beat me in a foot race.
Tell me - how are you going to scheme those guys into more points?
There's no amount of shifts, motion, jet-sweeps, misdirection, mesh routes or anything else that going to make that machine go.
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is now far more entrenched in player acquisition & draft decisions in Yr 2 while also believing Garrett was internally-recommended to be part of his staff because of his experience level and familiarity within the NFC East.
Why would it?
It's twisty to say he has control over one (very general) part but not the intimate workings of his own staff. And, you just compared the current to the situation at the time of his hiring. When you bring it to the present, it's an internally contradictory position.
You are the one seemingly being twisty.
Of course he has control over his staff but, first of all, that has nothing to do with his deeper involvement in player acquisition as you are trying to insinuate.
And second, how hard is it to contemplate Mara wanted Judge to add some experienced guys to his coaching staff, Garrett was specifically recommended internally although it was still Judge's own choice. And that Garrett's performance may not be meeting all of Judge's expectations but he is giving him a year 2. Is it more than that?
yeah I believe the Garrett hire was one that was done from up above. Like a tutor for a coach (Judge) who is still using training wheels. I felt like this was the one coaching decision that was not made by Judge... but rather he was convinced to go in this direction from a mentorship perspective.
He's traditionally had a top OL and run game, a mobile QB, a top TE and usually above average (sometimes great) WR corps. The difference in what he had in Dallas to year 1 as a Giant is as much of a 180 as one could have.
He does need to find a way to generate offense despite those differences, but it isn't easy. And i'm not sure a different OC comes in last season and gets us to score much more than we did given the same circumstances.
I look at it this way, the bottom 5 teams in scoring were the Jets, Giants, Jags, Broncos and Bengals - are we blaming their OC's too or are we looking at the talent on offense and pointing out how deficient they are? Bengals would be the outlier since it was a Burrow injury that caused it (although they did score 10 points or less 4x under him in 10 games).
Here are the skill position guys that had at his disposal to try and generate offense:
WR - A washed up Tate/a banged up Slayton/a banged up Shepard are his top three followed by D. Rattley, CJ Board, Austin Mack.
He's forced to feature a TE that has serious issues concentrating on catching the football backed up L. Toilolo (a blocking TE that struggled to block) and K. Smith.
His stable of RB include Wayne Gallman (JAG to the point that they brought in off the streets:)ALfred Morris, D. Freeman. And Dion Lewis that couldn't beat me in a foot race.
Tell me - how are you going to scheme those guys into more points?
There's no amount of shifts, motion, jet-sweeps, misdirection, mesh routes or anything else that going to make that machine go.
Oddly left off this list is Garrett had a second year QB that came out in year 2 and continued to put the ball in harm's way with his play. So Garrett adjusted his gameplans for DJ around mid-season ...
Spock might say it's "illogical".
Peace be with you.
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how hard is it to contemplate Mara wanted Judge to add some experienced guys to his coaching staff, Garrett was specifically recommended internally although it was still Judge's own choice. And that Garrett's performance may not be meeting all of Judge's expectations but he is giving him a year 2. Is it more than that?
yeah I believe the Garrett hire was one that was done from up above. Like a tutor for a coach (Judge) who is still using training wheels. I felt like this was the one coaching decision that was not made by Judge... but rather he was convinced to go in this direction from a mentorship perspective.
That may be true, but it doesn't mean that in year 2 Judge is going to be forced to keep Garrett if things aren't working out.
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that the trades and draft picks means that Judge runs the ship, while simultaneously claiming, that the presence of Garrett means that non-Judge elements run the ship.
Spock might say it's "illogical".
Peace be with you.
It's illogical because it's a made up a premise.
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In comment 15263846 Jimmy Googs said:
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how hard is it to contemplate Mara wanted Judge to add some experienced guys to his coaching staff, Garrett was specifically recommended internally although it was still Judge's own choice. And that Garrett's performance may not be meeting all of Judge's expectations but he is giving him a year 2. Is it more than that?
yeah I believe the Garrett hire was one that was done from up above. Like a tutor for a coach (Judge) who is still using training wheels. I felt like this was the one coaching decision that was not made by Judge... but rather he was convinced to go in this direction from a mentorship perspective.
That may be true, but it doesn't mean that in year 2 Judge is going to be forced to keep Garrett if things aren't working out.
Already said
Well, it depends on how much you want to factor in injuries and lack of talent into the equation. Some people think its merely an excuse, others see it as a significant reason.
I'll ask again, why weren't the rest of the bottom 5 offenses scoring more, bad OCs? Patriots, Eagles and Redskins round out the 8 teams that failed to average 2 scores a game - all bad OC's?
Poor offense talent (which includes the QB since I know that's a trigger) and injuries (including depth) is the more likely reason.
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In comment 15263791 Bill L said:
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that the trades and draft picks means that Judge runs the ship, while simultaneously claiming, that the presence of Garrett means that non-Judge elements run the ship.
Spock might say it's "illogical".
Peace be with you.
It's illogical because it's a made up a premise.
Made up?
I know that you didn't miss the many many threads where people made the unsubstantiated but, for them absolute, claim, that the draft and the trades where proof that Judge had the keys and the rest of management was cowed into agreement by his awesomeness. I know that you didn't miss those threads because i saw you post on them. If Judge is running the show and he didn't want Garrett on the team, then he would be gone by this afternoon.
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Are acknowledging just how bad the play design in the passing game was last year.
Well, it depends on how much you want to factor in injuries and lack of talent into the equation. Some people think its merely an excuse, others see it as a significant reason.
I'll ask again, why weren't the rest of the bottom 5 offenses scoring more, bad OCs? Patriots, Eagles and Redskins round out the 8 teams that failed to average 2 scores a game - all bad OC's?
Poor offense talent (which includes the QB since I know that's a trigger) and injuries (including depth) is the more likely reason.
3 scores*
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You gotta admit, the Giants offense is horrible on the field, starting with Jones and going right on through to nearly every position. Dreck at the skills, dreck on the line, no depth. There’s many reasons the Giants offense is one of the worst in the NFL but Garrett is surely one of those reasons.
Good points above, especially regarding the endless fucking curl routes and Garrett’s three yards and a cloud dust offensive philosophy from like 1940. He’s a bright guy so maybe he’ll turn it around this season. He’s got a lot more talent at the skill positions. But it’s still gonna be Jones at QB1 and I don’t think there’s many, if any, O-co’s that can help with Jones. Look at Goff under McVay, sure, he could help with cutting the field in half and only two reads and all motion and everything else but still, at the end of the day, it’s Goff. Don’t think Garrett doesn’t know this too. Still, he should be getting more out of Jones then he did last season. I think Garrett is a classic example of a coach who won’t alter his scheme to fit his players.
Anyway, yeah, hard to see any way that Garrett’s coming back for a third season.
Not sure if you're trolling but that extreme take on Jones while acknowledging how severe some of the other issues on the team were makes you a troll in my book.
You've made your mind up on a kid that has every opportunity to be a great player in this league. Hopes he makes you eat a big pile of crow.
Not trolling at all. When I write that Garrett is a bad O-co, when I write that the line and skill positions are dreck, that’s me acknowledging that Jones hasn’t had much to work with. But, even with these considerations my assessment of Jones is that he isn’t a viable NFL QB1. I quickly add, I certainly hope that I am wrong. I’m not rooting against the Giants or Jones or anyone here. I just don’t see anything to indicate that Jones is more than a backup. I understand why that’s perceived as an extreme take but I really just think that’s what the facts and objective evaluation support. I guess it comes down to this, I *hope* Jones is awesome and successful as the Giants QB1, what I’ve seen to this point doesn’t make *think* this is a likely outcome.
Recent changes in behavior as to player acquisition/draft are indeed being noticed. And many posters are surmising it has a lot to do with Judge's influence into the process. Why?...because its logical as to timing, comments being publicly made from those within the FO and following them, and the profile of the changes.
Why that is being couched by you that those posters are saying Judge absolutely "has the keys" and is running the entire show while cowing the rest of the front office is the question. Where are you going with these extremes?
He gets to bring Colombo with him - but we know how that ended up. There were also rumors early in the year Garrett planned on the Giants being a 1-and-done stop back to a Head Coaching position. He then oversaw one of the least-productive offenses in the league. There were rumors of tension between he and Judge.
Well.....here we are. Where is Garrett's head at? Kitchens is looming, with an increased role. Does he just want out, or is he fully invested?
Again, we can hope for the best given the upgrades at the skill positions in 2021. But the OL and quarterback are exactly the same. If the scheme is bad this year, it will be because the coaching staff is not confident that there has been requisite improvement in these six positions. It will not be due to the sudden loss of creativity in the mind of its offensive coordinator.
This season I also believe they will open it up more. The OL has another year and did look better, the defense looked much better, Barkley is back, Golliday, and Jones has another year.
I don't think Garret is on the hotseat
Love rational takes like this that don't tread into weird and manufactured dramatic crap.
I also don't get the logic that Garrett is a bad fit with Jones yet he got every ounce of talent and ability out of the likes of Romo and Dak. You couldn't conjure up two more apt QBs that match the skill set of Jones. But Jones and Garrett are a bad marriage? Why? Because Jones didn't set the NFL on fire on their first year?
Answer me this, when is it ok NOT to fire the OC and QB after one year? Is it ever?
Right. Garrett is no fool. He's been in the NFL, counting his playing days, for 30+ years. And around some of the game's great minds.
Look, maybe I'm being naive on this part, but I have to imagine he has spoken with Jones to get input on the offense and plays that Jones prefers. So I'm not quite buying - yet - this characterization that Garrett is trying to stick a square peg (Jones) into a round hole (his offense).
I'm betting Garrett AND Judge have more of an idea what they have in Jones and, along with more resources for '21, will design an offense that fits. Then it will be up to Jones to execute.
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That Jason Garrett, who coached one of the highest powered and successful offenses in the NFL for a decade, suddenly didn't know how to scheme an effective offense in 2020? OR That the lack of talent on the entire offensive side of the ball, led by a quarterback who has made fatal mistakes on a regular basis, required a slimmed down version of an NFL offense?
Right. Garrett is no fool. He's been in the NFL, counting his playing days, for 30+ years. And around some of the game's great minds.
Look, maybe I'm being naive on this part, but I have to imagine he has spoken with Jones to get input on the offense and plays that Jones prefers. So I'm not quite buying - yet - this characterization that Garrett is trying to stick a square peg (Jones) into a round hole (his offense).
I'm betting Garrett AND Judge have more of an idea what they have in Jones and, along with more resources for '21, will design an offense that fits. Then it will be up to Jones to execute.
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That Jason Garrett, who coached one of the highest powered and successful offenses in the NFL for a decade, suddenly didn't know how to scheme an effective offense in 2020? OR That the lack of talent on the entire offensive side of the ball, led by a quarterback who has made fatal mistakes on a regular basis, required a slimmed down version of an NFL offense?
Right. Garrett is no fool. He's been in the NFL, counting his playing days, for 30+ years. And around some of the game's great minds.
Look, maybe I'm being naive on this part, but I have to imagine he has spoken with Jones to get input on the offense and plays that Jones prefers. So I'm not quite buying - yet - this characterization that Garrett is trying to stick a square peg (Jones) into a round hole (his offense).
I'm betting Garrett AND Judge have more of an idea what they have in Jones and, along with more resources for '21, will design an offense that fits. Then it will be up to Jones to execute.
Agree with all of this, and still can surmise Judge may also be lukewarm as to some of Garrett's performance without the reference that he doesn't know what he is doing.
Judge stuck himself right into the OL situation last year when it wasn't going the way he wanted and ruffled feathers...so logical to think he would do it again as needed.
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That Jason Garrett, who coached one of the highest powered and successful offenses in the NFL for a decade, suddenly didn't know how to scheme an effective offense in 2020? OR That the lack of talent on the entire offensive side of the ball, led by a quarterback who has made fatal mistakes on a regular basis, required a slimmed down version of an NFL offense?
Right. Garrett is no fool. He's been in the NFL, counting his playing days, for 30+ years. And around some of the game's great minds.
Look, maybe I'm being naive on this part, but I have to imagine he has spoken with Jones to get input on the offense and plays that Jones prefers. So I'm not quite buying - yet - this characterization that Garrett is trying to stick a square peg (Jones) into a round hole (his offense).
I'm betting Garrett AND Judge have more of an idea what they have in Jones and, along with more resources for '21, will design an offense that fits. Then it will be up to Jones to execute.
I agree 100%.
THey are both undoubtedly hitching their wagon to his star.
And I'll take it a step further and I think you'll agree...if his star fades - it should cost everyone their jobs.
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In comment 15264001 The Mike said:
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That Jason Garrett, who coached one of the highest powered and successful offenses in the NFL for a decade, suddenly didn't know how to scheme an effective offense in 2020? OR That the lack of talent on the entire offensive side of the ball, led by a quarterback who has made fatal mistakes on a regular basis, required a slimmed down version of an NFL offense?
Right. Garrett is no fool. He's been in the NFL, counting his playing days, for 30+ years. And around some of the game's great minds.
Look, maybe I'm being naive on this part, but I have to imagine he has spoken with Jones to get input on the offense and plays that Jones prefers. So I'm not quite buying - yet - this characterization that Garrett is trying to stick a square peg (Jones) into a round hole (his offense).
I'm betting Garrett AND Judge have more of an idea what they have in Jones and, along with more resources for '21, will design an offense that fits. Then it will be up to Jones to execute.
I agree 100%.
THey are both undoubtedly hitching their wagon to his star.
And I'll take it a step further and I think you'll agree...if his star fades - it should cost everyone their jobs.
So if Jones does not improve it is the coaching staff's fault? Gettleman has the full responsibility for DJ now and will be fired if Jones fails. If so, Judge should get a pass and deserves a chance with his own guy. And blaming Garrett, who has successfully developed Romo and Dak, is ridiculous.
He probably developed them quite a bit, don't short change it just because of the college production. There was a reason why they were picked where they were. Its like saying Brady wasn't developed all that much and it just happened.
I view Jones/Garrett similarly - both need to up their games to stick around long term, only for Garrett if we succeed on offense he's going to leave to be a HC. Similarly if they fail, I believe Judge will do his best to lobby for both being replaced, and in Garrett's case I can see an in-season firing if we replicate 2020 for an extended period of time.
This!
I 100% agree Mara forced this but I'm not sure Mara thinks he's a football genius. I do think he runs the organization like a small family business preferring the hiring of familiar ppl if they're available.
Garrett was and still probably is the fall back option if JJ ultimately fails which just fits Mara's generally awful decision making perfectly
The Giants operate a certain way, a way that won them a bunch of super bowls. There’s modifications they will make but they aren’t going to drastically deviate from how they operate.
That said I don’t see Mara sticking with Garrett through two bad seasons just because. He fired Shurmur after two, there’s no reason to think he wouldnt move off of Garrett if he shits the bed.
Garrett’s seat is hotter to start the season
If Jones sucks all year, I think he’s done. New QB in 21 draft.
+1