After all the of the off season moves to help the offense and having Kitchens available to step in to the OC spot on a moments notice, is Garrett on the hot seat?
Someone in upper management wanted Garrett. Considering that Garrett did have a history with Nick Saban I would not be surprised if Judge asked Saban for his input before agreeing to that. I do think that if we start slow offensively and/or Jones is not showing requisite progress there will be a push internally to make Kitchens the OC. That being said, if Kitchens is made the OC and Jones does not improve I don't think they will give him any slack about the change in OC since Kitchens is basically acting as an assistant Offensive Coordinator to Garrett.
where we have to decide on what we have in Daniel Jones, you had to stick with Garrett. You need to keep the continuity.
Kitchens in his new role would not be a change in continuity. You might have slightly different play calls in certain situations, but I imagine the terminology and such will be similar. That is probably why the Giants rearranged their coaching staff to get Kitchens more involved in the weekly gameplanning so if a change needed to be made it wouldn't hurt Jones's development.
I think there's a place for Garret without him calling plays
And I expect him not to call the plays, or at least not the full game. He will be involved but he's not the soul play caller. There are other things Garret does well. I expect Kitchens to be the primary play caller.
..Garrett needs to upgrade the playbook to the talent immediately. i'm sure JJ is not going to whistle through any regular season games guessing what his OC is doing and hope it flies, then make a decision in october.
if theres a change i'd bet it will be before tc.
is that this is Mara's guy. And I believe Mara thinks he is way smarter of a football guy than he actually is. Thus I can see there being an explicit or implicit understanding that Garret isn't going anywhere
I think he is with Judge but I'm not so sure he is with ownership.
This.
And yet, it was only a couple of weeks ago where Joe Judge had initiated some sort of coup and was making all of the decisions in one big autonomous vacuum.
I think he is with Judge but I'm not so sure he is with ownership.
This.
And yet, it was only a couple of weeks ago where Joe Judge had initiated some sort of coup and was making all of the decisions in one big autonomous vacuum.
I think he is with Judge but I'm not so sure he is with ownership.
This.
And yet, it was only a couple of weeks ago where Joe Judge had initiated some sort of coup and was making all of the decisions in one big autonomous vacuum.
added other coaches besides Kitchens who have experience in different style of offenses. I think the onus is on Garrett to adapt and change his philosophy somewhat.
Even Saban figured out you need an offense that can drop 40 or 50 sometimes.
As bad or worse as they did on offense in 2020 you bet your ass he is.
Barring the defense regressing in a big way (unlikely), it would also mean the team has a hugely disappointing season.
It's no accident that Judge rearranged his offensive coaching staff this off-season.
Garrett is more on the hot seat than anyone else in the organization IMO...that includes Jones and Gettleman btw.
gets surrounded and protected by a myriad of excuses - Covid, inexperienced OL, new OC, new gameplans, injuries, weather, growing pains, schedule, Colonial Pipeline, etc - shouldn't Garrett be afforded the same benefits of the doubt?
is that this is Mara's guy. And I believe Mara thinks he is way smarter of a football guy than he actually is. Thus I can see there being an explicit or implicit understanding that Garret isn't going anywhere
Oddly enough I don't think that's the case here. I think it's more Mara loyalty/old boys network. His father was a former player and coach for the Giants, and Garrett himself is a former player on the Giants, including on the Superbowl 35 losing roster.
I think he is with Judge but I'm not so sure he is with ownership.
This.
And yet, it was only a couple of weeks ago where Joe Judge had initiated some sort of coup and was making all of the decisions in one big autonomous vacuum.
gets surrounded and protected by a myriad of excuses - Covid, inexperienced OL, new OC, new gameplans, injuries, weather, growing pains, schedule, Colonial Pipeline, etc - shouldn't Garrett be afforded the same benefits of the doubt?
By who, fans or the employers?
Personally i'm indifferent on Garrett. I think a lot of what was stated the the thread earlier this week or last (i forget which BBIer) was true - the gameplan last year was to limit mistakes and shorten games. I don't think Garrett is stupid but like Jones, what he had to work with was very limited. He also looks a lot better with 2 more wins that we threw away (1 by Jones and the other by Engram).
And you can say they are excuses all you want but I see them as reasons. Sports are about circumstance and navigating them. Not getting enough sleep is an excuse, having a shitty OL or WR's that don't get separation are definitive reasons.
all that much given the offensive line, Jones' ball security issues, and Giants receivers inability to get separation. I think this year is Garrett's chance to reveal his offense and then we can judge whether it's creative enough to win.
gets surrounded and protected by a myriad of excuses - Covid, inexperienced OL, new OC, new gameplans, injuries, weather, growing pains, schedule, Colonial Pipeline, etc - shouldn't Garrett be afforded the same benefits of the doubt?
By who, fans or the employers?
Personally i'm indifferent on Garrett. I think a lot of what was stated the the thread earlier this week or last (i forget which BBIer) was true - the gameplan last year was to limit mistakes and shorten games. I don't think Garrett is stupid but like Jones, what he had to work with was very limited. He also looks a lot better with 2 more wins that we threw away (1 by Jones and the other by Engram).
And you can say they are excuses all you want but I see them as reasons. Sports are about circumstance and navigating them. Not getting enough sleep is an excuse, having a shitty OL or WR's that don't get separation are definitive reasons.
Well, anyone. But directly to BBIers. Particularly those - and I don't think you are one - who have absolutely marched out most of the excuses I listed. It's been a steady barrage almost daily since the season ended.
You and I agree on your second paragraph about Garrett. I'm between agnostic and being a soft supporter of him as the OC. And I completely agree how he approached last year and some of the losses due to poor execution. Which is why I actually think he did a pretty damn good job under the circumstances and should be less on the hot seat than Jones.
Where you and I disagree - I think - is the general expectation of Jones.
You seem more in the camp that Jones can't be truly evaluated without much more infantry around him and I'm more in the camp that I expect Jones to be the guy who can lift the play of his offense.
Well, we brought in more infantry this year and we are certainly about to find if Jones can be that man with the added support.
As I have said all too often, I do worry that the OL is still a major question mark and that could adversely effect the season. Hopefully the decision makers are right about this group and they are up for the task.
is that it’s fair to evaluate him now, which shows he likely won’t ever be elite. And if you agree on that which I think most would, that he’s going to need help.
I don’t know how good he can be but I do know that he’s had an uphill battle trying to prove his worth, which is the “circumstance” comment I made earlier.
I just don’t harp on it daily is all, it’s mind numbing after a while. I actually agree with you guys a lot on Jones I just talk about many other things because it gets tiresome after a while,
chatted with Go Terps on the thread about the QB from Ohio
about how an offensive approach like Ohio's might benefit Jones. Also watched 'Bama's offensive approach with some awe while checking out Smith and Waddle pre-draft. 'Bama is like chess while we're like checkers. I actually like Garrett for reasons that go back to his earliest days in college but to say our offense could be a lot more deceptive and confusing to the D - I think that's a fact until proven otherwise. And we have the weapons to get it done now.
And Garrett still has a job I'd be shocked and pissed.
I won't get into the math again, but Jones should have enough resources now - assuming relatively good health across the entire offense - to produce at least 27 TD passes.
I have no concern that Garrett can create an offense to put Jones is position do that. My concern is if Jones can execute.
Hell, if Toney is the real deal and SB is 95% of his former self, Jones should be able to get half of those 27 TDs through bubble screens and check downs.
RE: RE: If Daniel Jones doesn’t double his TD total
And Garrett still has a job I'd be shocked and pissed.
I won't get into the math again, but Jones should have enough resources now - assuming relatively good health across the entire offense - to produce at least 27 TD passes.
I have no concern that Garrett can create an offense to put Jones is position do that. My concern is if Jones can execute.
Hell, if Toney is the real deal and SB is 95% of his former self, Jones should be able to get half of those 27 TDs through bubble screens and check downs.
Im just curious as to why? Jones was a far more effective weapon in 2019 in a more modern NFL offense. If you cant see that Garrett has a lot of work to do CONCEPT wise then I dont think you know what youre watching..no offense.
If the Offense takes off this year, he will be hired away by another team. If the Offense tanks then he likely gets pushed out at the end of the year and catches on as an OC somewhere else. The list of former HC working as OC or DC in the NFL is pretty substantial.
RE: RE: RE: If Daniel Jones doesn’t double his TD total
Im just curious as to why? Jones was a far more effective weapon in 2019 in a more modern NFL offense. If you cant see that Garrett has a lot of work to do CONCEPT wise then I dont think you know what youre watching..no offense.
Why what exactly? No being a wise ass, just trying to follow where you are going...
I agree that Jones looked better and was more effective in 2019. I just don't know why.
-- Did DCs figure out the best way to defend the Jones?
-- Where the injuries that impactful?
-- Did the receivers take a step back?
-- Is Garrett really a dinosaur as an OC?
-- Etc.
both players and coaches to fit their confirmation bias, so take everything with a grain of salt, including my opinions below...
However, I dont think its disputable that Jason Garrett's 2020 offense left a lot to be desired, and big changes need to be made if they are going to score with the better teams in the league.
The Good:
-What I liked about Garrett's offense was his feel and rhythm in the run game, which got substantially better as the year went on. His mix of inside runs out of the gun, power outside when they were in tight, and exploiting running lanes on defenses were all very good.
-His use of RPOs, jet sweeps, screens, and QB run options were also arguably the most explosive plays the Giants were able to muster last year. All good stuff and in games where almost nothing worked, this helped keep the chains moving and lead to a lot of their (paltry number of) touchdowns.
The Bad:
-This offense screams 2010 offensive football in every way. Look at some of the better offensive minds in today's game like KC..its just another level of route concepts in the passing game.
-Jones analytically EXCELS in the deep passing game - specifically outside the hashes, 15+ yards down the field. There is a difference between protecting your young OL and QB with check downs, and going too far in the other direction with NO DEEP routes on a given play. As bad as the skill players were in their last ranked separation ratings, they werent given any favors by consistently running 4 short curls that the defense could sit on.
-Jone's turnovers come off of short passes. Theyre easy to read, and easy to cover. This also played into the fact that he was the most blitzed QB in all of football. Its not just individual OL matchups that broke down. Many times they ran plays with no one running more than 10 yards down the field. I dont care who your OL is, thats inexcusable.
-In the 1 game Freddie Kitchens called with Colt McCoy at QB, the Giants actually had more than 1 guy running deep. The same OL that everyone maligns here held up decently, and if Jones was at QB I think we are in that game and hit on some big plays. The switch for Kitchens to offensive assistant is a big tell that Judge sees the same things and gives me hope.
TL:DR
-Garrett has a responsibility to design an offense that plays to Jone's STRENGTHS. Shurmur actually did a decent job of this. Half field reads with more 15+ yard concepts. Less max protect, 2-4 man curls that can be easily defended with 0 blitzes and sitting at the sticks. He does better reading defenses HIGH TO LOW, not short to high.
Its been a long time since Garrett has been an OC, and his offense showed its a bit stuck in the past. My hope is that Judge sees this and they collectively go into 2021 with a more aggressive mindset.
Try to maximize the chance of success given what’s on the field.
Look at the Giants last year. They realized in a few games their zone blocking was not going to work with this very unformed OL and then without SB. So they moved to duo (double teams) power blocking. We had no home run hitters, no RB that like SB was going to make someone miss in space and take it to the house. It was power running and ball control.
He also realized this OL was not going to hold up well for the deep passing game, so to throw deep he had to leave guys in to block and that means limited options in routes. Compound that with some guys that can’t get open easily, and limited receiving with our RBs.
So we tried to do what we could given those limitations and play good D. That worked some, but it’s not going to light up the scoreboard.
This year is a much more intriguing test. There’s a lot more to work with. Though I suspect it may take a few games to gel with so many new pieces.
Try to maximize the chance of success given what’s on the field.
Look at the Giants last year. They realized in a few games their zone blocking was not going to work with this very unformed OL and then without SB. So they moved to duo (double teams) power blocking. We had no home run hitters, no RB that like SB was going to make someone miss in space and take it to the house. It was power running and ball control.
He also realized this OL was not going to hold up well for the deep passing game, so to throw deep he had to leave guys in to block and that means limited options in routes. Compound that with some guys that can’t get open easily, and limited receiving with our RBs.
So we tried to do what we could given those limitations and play good D. That worked some, but it’s not going to light up the scoreboard.
This year is a much more intriguing test. There’s a lot more to work with. Though I suspect it may take a few games to gel with so many new pieces.
You can protect your OL and still challenge the defense more effectively downfield. It's not mutually exclusive.
Shurmur didn't have much more to work with, and yet Jones had success being aggressive in the passing game. I'd argue the OL had a tougher job due to the vanilla nature of the passing concepts.
Check out the all 22 on some games...if you're a DC playing the Giants and you blitzed everyone and covered the sticks you were going to win.
That's not how you protect your OL.
I think Garrett and Jones is a really bad marriage
You can protect your OL and still challenge the defense more effectively downfield. It's not mutually exclusive.
Shurmur didn't have much more to work with, and yet Jones had success being aggressive in the passing game. I'd argue the OL had a tougher job due to the vanilla nature of the passing concepts.
Being more aggressive led to success in the passing game. It also led to Jones scrambling or getting hit and fumbling. The offense under Garrett was hamstrung by Barkley being out and receivers that couldn't separate. Several times last season, the Giants were in close games and had a better TOP than the previous year.
It came at the expense of offensive stats and production, and of course the ire of the fans, some of who now look at 2019 as a terrible year for Jones for some odd reason, but the offense in 2020 likely was better for managing the game.
Having Barkley back and several more dynamic weapons should make things a lot better and give Garrett a lot more options for creativity while still managing the game.
You can protect your OL and still challenge the defense more effectively downfield. It's not mutually exclusive.
Shurmur didn't have much more to work with, and yet Jones had success being aggressive in the passing game. I'd argue the OL had a tougher job due to the vanilla nature of the passing concepts.
Being more aggressive led to success in the passing game. It also led to Jones scrambling or getting hit and fumbling. The offense under Garrett was hamstrung by Barkley being out and receivers that couldn't separate. Several times last season, the Giants were in close games and had a better TOP than the previous year.
It came at the expense of offensive stats and production, and of course the ire of the fans, some of who now look at 2019 as a terrible year for Jones for some odd reason, but the offense in 2020 likely was better for managing the game.
Having Barkley back and several more dynamic weapons should make things a lot better and give Garrett a lot more options for creativity while still managing the game.
I'm with ya Fats, but the won't win if they can't score more. It's just the nature of the modern NFL. I'm okay with him calling a ball control game, managing TOP etc., but my argument is that better passing concepts overall will genuinely help every aspect of the offense.
I think if you would ask Garrett himself he would say he has to improve that in 2021. I think it can work, but just having better players running the same plays this year isn't going to be enough.
Like I said, it's all opinion, but I'd take my chances with at least the threat of guys running down the field to ease teams blitzing and free up the box - which in turn will Help (not hurt) the protection.
turnovers, attempt to increase possession time, win field position, and keep the game close. I think this was the strategy agreed to by Judge and Garrett. They knew the best way to win with our talent gap, especially after losing Barkley, was to keep it close until the end and try to win the field position game.
This season I also believe they will open it up more. The OL has another year and did look better, the defense looked much better, Barkley is back, Golliday, and Jones has another year.
Remote chance at middle ground but I still think the promotion of Kitchens speaks volumes of what Judge thinks.
Kitchens in his new role would not be a change in continuity. You might have slightly different play calls in certain situations, but I imagine the terminology and such will be similar. That is probably why the Giants rearranged their coaching staff to get Kitchens more involved in the weekly gameplanning so if a change needed to be made it wouldn't hurt Jones's development.
ding, ding, ding, ding....this is the answer
This.
if theres a change i'd bet it will be before tc.
Quote:
I think he is with Judge but I'm not so sure he is with ownership.
This.
And yet, it was only a couple of weeks ago where Joe Judge had initiated some sort of coup and was making all of the decisions in one big autonomous vacuum.
Quote:
In comment 15263242 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
I think he is with Judge but I'm not so sure he is with ownership.
This.
And yet, it was only a couple of weeks ago where Joe Judge had initiated some sort of coup and was making all of the decisions in one big autonomous vacuum.
That's the hope.
Quote:
In comment 15263298 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15263242 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
I think he is with Judge but I'm not so sure he is with ownership.
This.
And yet, it was only a couple of weeks ago where Joe Judge had initiated some sort of coup and was making all of the decisions in one big autonomous vacuum.
That's the hope.
I'm pretty sure that many it was a certainty.
They did? Are did they suggest what the preference was?
Even Saban figured out you need an offense that can drop 40 or 50 sometimes.
Barring the defense regressing in a big way (unlikely), it would also mean the team has a hugely disappointing season.
It's no accident that Judge rearranged his offensive coaching staff this off-season.
Garrett is more on the hot seat than anyone else in the organization IMO...that includes Jones and Gettleman btw.
Quote:
.
They did? Are did they suggest what the preference was?
Or
not "are"...
Offensive Line
Oddly enough I don't think that's the case here. I think it's more Mara loyalty/old boys network. His father was a former player and coach for the Giants, and Garrett himself is a former player on the Giants, including on the Superbowl 35 losing roster.
Quote:
In comment 15263332 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15263298 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15263242 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
I think he is with Judge but I'm not so sure he is with ownership.
This.
And yet, it was only a couple of weeks ago where Joe Judge had initiated some sort of coup and was making all of the decisions in one big autonomous vacuum.
That's the hope.
I'm pretty sure that many it was a certainty.
I didn't.
By who, fans or the employers?
Personally i'm indifferent on Garrett. I think a lot of what was stated the the thread earlier this week or last (i forget which BBIer) was true - the gameplan last year was to limit mistakes and shorten games. I don't think Garrett is stupid but like Jones, what he had to work with was very limited. He also looks a lot better with 2 more wins that we threw away (1 by Jones and the other by Engram).
And you can say they are excuses all you want but I see them as reasons. Sports are about circumstance and navigating them. Not getting enough sleep is an excuse, having a shitty OL or WR's that don't get separation are definitive reasons.
Kitchens ready to take over if the offense sputters.
I don't see Graham leaving mid season as the only way he goes is to a HC gig.
Garrett on the other hand.... Make your own judgement there.
Quote:
gets surrounded and protected by a myriad of excuses - Covid, inexperienced OL, new OC, new gameplans, injuries, weather, growing pains, schedule, Colonial Pipeline, etc - shouldn't Garrett be afforded the same benefits of the doubt?
By who, fans or the employers?
Personally i'm indifferent on Garrett. I think a lot of what was stated the the thread earlier this week or last (i forget which BBIer) was true - the gameplan last year was to limit mistakes and shorten games. I don't think Garrett is stupid but like Jones, what he had to work with was very limited. He also looks a lot better with 2 more wins that we threw away (1 by Jones and the other by Engram).
And you can say they are excuses all you want but I see them as reasons. Sports are about circumstance and navigating them. Not getting enough sleep is an excuse, having a shitty OL or WR's that don't get separation are definitive reasons.
Well, anyone. But directly to BBIers. Particularly those - and I don't think you are one - who have absolutely marched out most of the excuses I listed. It's been a steady barrage almost daily since the season ended.
You and I agree on your second paragraph about Garrett. I'm between agnostic and being a soft supporter of him as the OC. And I completely agree how he approached last year and some of the losses due to poor execution. Which is why I actually think he did a pretty damn good job under the circumstances and should be less on the hot seat than Jones.
Where you and I disagree - I think - is the general expectation of Jones.
You seem more in the camp that Jones can't be truly evaluated without much more infantry around him and I'm more in the camp that I expect Jones to be the guy who can lift the play of his offense.
Well, we brought in more infantry this year and we are certainly about to find if Jones can be that man with the added support.
As I have said all too often, I do worry that the OL is still a major question mark and that could adversely effect the season. Hopefully the decision makers are right about this group and they are up for the task.
I don’t know how good he can be but I do know that he’s had an uphill battle trying to prove his worth, which is the “circumstance” comment I made earlier.
I just don’t harp on it daily is all, it’s mind numbing after a while. I actually agree with you guys a lot on Jones I just talk about many other things because it gets tiresome after a while,
I won't get into the math again, but Jones should have enough resources now - assuming relatively good health across the entire offense - to produce at least 27 TD passes.
I have no concern that Garrett can create an offense to put Jones is position do that. My concern is if Jones can execute.
Hell, if Toney is the real deal and SB is 95% of his former self, Jones should be able to get half of those 27 TDs through bubble screens and check downs.
Quote:
And Garrett still has a job I'd be shocked and pissed.
I won't get into the math again, but Jones should have enough resources now - assuming relatively good health across the entire offense - to produce at least 27 TD passes.
I have no concern that Garrett can create an offense to put Jones is position do that. My concern is if Jones can execute.
Hell, if Toney is the real deal and SB is 95% of his former self, Jones should be able to get half of those 27 TDs through bubble screens and check downs.
Im just curious as to why? Jones was a far more effective weapon in 2019 in a more modern NFL offense. If you cant see that Garrett has a lot of work to do CONCEPT wise then I dont think you know what youre watching..no offense.
Im just curious as to why? Jones was a far more effective weapon in 2019 in a more modern NFL offense. If you cant see that Garrett has a lot of work to do CONCEPT wise then I dont think you know what youre watching..no offense.
Why what exactly? No being a wise ass, just trying to follow where you are going...
I agree that Jones looked better and was more effective in 2019. I just don't know why.
-- Did DCs figure out the best way to defend the Jones?
-- Where the injuries that impactful?
-- Did the receivers take a step back?
-- Is Garrett really a dinosaur as an OC?
-- Etc.
However, I dont think its disputable that Jason Garrett's 2020 offense left a lot to be desired, and big changes need to be made if they are going to score with the better teams in the league.
The Good:
-What I liked about Garrett's offense was his feel and rhythm in the run game, which got substantially better as the year went on. His mix of inside runs out of the gun, power outside when they were in tight, and exploiting running lanes on defenses were all very good.
-His use of RPOs, jet sweeps, screens, and QB run options were also arguably the most explosive plays the Giants were able to muster last year. All good stuff and in games where almost nothing worked, this helped keep the chains moving and lead to a lot of their (paltry number of) touchdowns.
The Bad:
-This offense screams 2010 offensive football in every way. Look at some of the better offensive minds in today's game like KC..its just another level of route concepts in the passing game.
-Jones analytically EXCELS in the deep passing game - specifically outside the hashes, 15+ yards down the field. There is a difference between protecting your young OL and QB with check downs, and going too far in the other direction with NO DEEP routes on a given play. As bad as the skill players were in their last ranked separation ratings, they werent given any favors by consistently running 4 short curls that the defense could sit on.
-Jone's turnovers come off of short passes. Theyre easy to read, and easy to cover. This also played into the fact that he was the most blitzed QB in all of football. Its not just individual OL matchups that broke down. Many times they ran plays with no one running more than 10 yards down the field. I dont care who your OL is, thats inexcusable.
-In the 1 game Freddie Kitchens called with Colt McCoy at QB, the Giants actually had more than 1 guy running deep. The same OL that everyone maligns here held up decently, and if Jones was at QB I think we are in that game and hit on some big plays. The switch for Kitchens to offensive assistant is a big tell that Judge sees the same things and gives me hope.
TL:DR
-Garrett has a responsibility to design an offense that plays to Jone's STRENGTHS. Shurmur actually did a decent job of this. Half field reads with more 15+ yard concepts. Less max protect, 2-4 man curls that can be easily defended with 0 blitzes and sitting at the sticks. He does better reading defenses HIGH TO LOW, not short to high.
Its been a long time since Garrett has been an OC, and his offense showed its a bit stuck in the past. My hope is that Judge sees this and they collectively go into 2021 with a more aggressive mindset.
Look at the Giants last year. They realized in a few games their zone blocking was not going to work with this very unformed OL and then without SB. So they moved to duo (double teams) power blocking. We had no home run hitters, no RB that like SB was going to make someone miss in space and take it to the house. It was power running and ball control.
He also realized this OL was not going to hold up well for the deep passing game, so to throw deep he had to leave guys in to block and that means limited options in routes. Compound that with some guys that can’t get open easily, and limited receiving with our RBs.
So we tried to do what we could given those limitations and play good D. That worked some, but it’s not going to light up the scoreboard.
This year is a much more intriguing test. There’s a lot more to work with. Though I suspect it may take a few games to gel with so many new pieces.
Look at the Giants last year. They realized in a few games their zone blocking was not going to work with this very unformed OL and then without SB. So they moved to duo (double teams) power blocking. We had no home run hitters, no RB that like SB was going to make someone miss in space and take it to the house. It was power running and ball control.
He also realized this OL was not going to hold up well for the deep passing game, so to throw deep he had to leave guys in to block and that means limited options in routes. Compound that with some guys that can’t get open easily, and limited receiving with our RBs.
So we tried to do what we could given those limitations and play good D. That worked some, but it’s not going to light up the scoreboard.
This year is a much more intriguing test. There’s a lot more to work with. Though I suspect it may take a few games to gel with so many new pieces.
You can protect your OL and still challenge the defense more effectively downfield. It's not mutually exclusive.
Shurmur didn't have much more to work with, and yet Jones had success being aggressive in the passing game. I'd argue the OL had a tougher job due to the vanilla nature of the passing concepts.
Check out the all 22 on some games...if you're a DC playing the Giants and you blitzed everyone and covered the sticks you were going to win.
That's not how you protect your OL.
This is one thing that we can agree on. Hopefully we see him adapt for Jones sake.
I think you’re right. Hopefully the reports are true and Freddie Kitchens will have more influence in the offense.
Shurmur didn't have much more to work with, and yet Jones had success being aggressive in the passing game. I'd argue the OL had a tougher job due to the vanilla nature of the passing concepts.
Being more aggressive led to success in the passing game. It also led to Jones scrambling or getting hit and fumbling. The offense under Garrett was hamstrung by Barkley being out and receivers that couldn't separate. Several times last season, the Giants were in close games and had a better TOP than the previous year.
It came at the expense of offensive stats and production, and of course the ire of the fans, some of who now look at 2019 as a terrible year for Jones for some odd reason, but the offense in 2020 likely was better for managing the game.
Having Barkley back and several more dynamic weapons should make things a lot better and give Garrett a lot more options for creativity while still managing the game.
Quote:
You can protect your OL and still challenge the defense more effectively downfield. It's not mutually exclusive.
Shurmur didn't have much more to work with, and yet Jones had success being aggressive in the passing game. I'd argue the OL had a tougher job due to the vanilla nature of the passing concepts.
Being more aggressive led to success in the passing game. It also led to Jones scrambling or getting hit and fumbling. The offense under Garrett was hamstrung by Barkley being out and receivers that couldn't separate. Several times last season, the Giants were in close games and had a better TOP than the previous year.
It came at the expense of offensive stats and production, and of course the ire of the fans, some of who now look at 2019 as a terrible year for Jones for some odd reason, but the offense in 2020 likely was better for managing the game.
Having Barkley back and several more dynamic weapons should make things a lot better and give Garrett a lot more options for creativity while still managing the game.
I'm with ya Fats, but the won't win if they can't score more. It's just the nature of the modern NFL. I'm okay with him calling a ball control game, managing TOP etc., but my argument is that better passing concepts overall will genuinely help every aspect of the offense.
I think if you would ask Garrett himself he would say he has to improve that in 2021. I think it can work, but just having better players running the same plays this year isn't going to be enough.
Like I said, it's all opinion, but I'd take my chances with at least the threat of guys running down the field to ease teams blitzing and free up the box - which in turn will Help (not hurt) the protection.
This season I also believe they will open it up more. The OL has another year and did look better, the defense looked much better, Barkley is back, Golliday, and Jones has another year.
I don't think Garret is on the hotseat