I've been thinking about how this Offense is going to look, and believe that what they tried to do last year, the additions the Giants have made, the subtractions they have made, and who they have kept are very telling.
First off Joe Judge continues to insist that the Giants want to play "Multiples." If you look at the way they are putting together and evolving the RBs, last year after Saquon went down they added two sturdy North South runners who could also catch in Freeman and Morris and Galman was seemingly demoted to the third back behind them, until neither Freeman or Galman could take the field. Freeman and Morris were both good at plowing into the line and grinding out yards, but neither of them can sustain that for a full season any more. Picking up Booker, and now Clement will sustain that North South running style, and even Brightwell is more of that kind of runner. Galman is just not a North South runner and when placed in that role he succeeded for a while - but could not sustain success at it.
So I see starting a game trying to establish the North South run and then varying it with sweeps, and screens and play action which with success off the run and screen plays will be respected.
Then you look at the WRs -- we essentially had 2 slot receivers trying to be either the x and y last year and Slayton trying to be the 1 - we all know how that ended up -- each of Slayton, Shep and Tate had a couple of good games last year but we didn't have a true 1 or a reasonable x y in combination. This year we have a 1 who can convincingly play the x and Y and both Slayton and Shep can play the 2, and Toney and Shep can play the slot. Huge difference from last year, especially as Toney can play off Saquon out of the backfield and into the screen and third or fourth option as the jitterbug -
Then you have Engram who can focus on the seams and Rudolph who can focus crossing or out patterns on end zone or third downs.
The Offensive line will be expected to play a zone blocking scheme, and also be able switch and match up with the opposition. Many of you doubt that this Oline can be successful. But the Giants have reshaped the Oline staff in the off season the way Judge tried to make it in the prior season - only to have his plans shattered by coach Columbo, who we had all embraced, and shockingly he did not buy into Joe Judge's plan.
This year Judge rebuilt that staff - and more than likely got commitments out of the new hires that they would do it his way. The Offensive line has been heavily invested in the last draft with a 1, 3 and 5 each of whom has shown a little something be it not consistently -- each of whom will have had a full year in an NFL style nutrition and workout program under their belt in addition to playing for a good part of a first year and learning what to expect -- this oline probably played 6 of the top Defensive lines in the NFL last year, and while they were up and down the Giants were able to hang in with the opposition in six games where they were only basically a few plays away from winning, good enough to win 6 games in addition.
I think there are enough variables added and improvements that this is going to be a great combination of power running, speed, deception, playaction and players that can beat individual matchups, stretch the field, and also sit on the first down marker, come up with the ball and grind it out through the goal line.
With the improvements on defense and special teams in the off season this offense only needs to start sniffing at being near the top third in the NFL, gain confidence and maybe even cross into the top third.
Many of you astute posters will probably ascertain that I did not discuss Daniel Jones above. I'm going to tell you something. Daniel Jones will be fine. He has the work ethic, the tools, and the maturity, he will step up with confidence and make the scheme work decisively.
Have at it -- what do you think the Giants Offensive Scheme will look like?
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in today's NFL, I hope we...
-- significantly increase our passing attempts
-- pass to set-up the run
-- use a higher rate of bubble screens, esp. w/Toney
-- get more creative with Barkley in the passing game
> motion him more to move the defense
> line him up at the Z and X
> if the OL is competent, more screens
-- pressure the D by forcing the ball downfield to KG
-- use Jones on designed runs
-- get Jones out of the pocket on designed throws
-- go for it more on 4th down
Like all of this.
I'm starting to wonder how much of Barkley we're going to see in 2021, though.
They've signed two veteran running backs, drafted another, and their first round pick figures to be a Swiss Army Knife that gets just the types of touches you'd like to see Barkley get.
I agree on Barkley. I don't see how he can be anywhere near his old self less than a year removed from an ACL tear. Maybe I'm wrong but I just don't see it.
Gallman was a good north-south runner when he was engaged but he was very inconsistent snap to snap assignment-wise and it's why he wasn't retained.
I think a lot of fans also go full dodo when a coach says 'multiple' and 'versatile.' It's typically just a 1) a guy can do all the stuff his positions requires 2) He's got some skills that translate to different looks and he can stay on the field if he asked to pitch in.
Gallman wasn't that guy.
As you know, maybe a few new looks are installed each week, but your playbook is set before the pads go on.
Garret doesn't have a super exotic offense. He's a lot closer to the Norv Turner & Zampaese mold -- a lot of simple stuff, deep and sideline stuff.
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In comment 15265500 bw in dc said:
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in today's NFL, I hope we...
I agree on Barkley. I don't see how he can be anywhere near his old self less than a year removed from an ACL tear. Maybe I'm wrong but I just don't see it.
The ACL surgery rehab has come a long damn way. The same surgeon worked on Kupp and he came back faster than he was pre injury. Obviously Barkley’s running style is a tough one to Judge, but I’m pretty confident we see the guy he was pre ACL once he gets some games under his belt and gets confident in the knee. Barkley is a maniac and probably using this opportunity to fix some mobility issues that caused it in first place.
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he wants it to look, meaning more vertical passing and crossing routes. But, I don't expect to see a new scheme from him week to week.
Gallman was a good north-south runner when he was engaged but he was very inconsistent snap to snap assignment-wise and it's why he wasn't retained.
I think a lot of fans also go full dodo when a coach says 'multiple' and 'versatile.' It's typically just a 1) a guy can do all the stuff his positions requires 2) He's got some skills that translate to different looks and he can stay on the field if he asked to pitch in.
Gallman wasn't that guy.
As you know, maybe a few new looks are installed each week, but your playbook is set before the pads go on.
Garret doesn't have a super exotic offense. He's a lot closer to the Norv Turner & Zampaese mold -- a lot of simple stuff, deep and sideline stuff.
This last paragraph doesn't fill me with confidence. What year is this?
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Will not be successful if Jones is dropping back 40 times a game.
They need to establish the run and base they’re offense off of the run, opening up the passing game. Jones is a distributor - not a Patrick Mahomes - I think we can all agree on that.
Establish the run early, open up play action, screens and deep balls.
Every game we won last year came when we were able to establish the run early. That will be the key to our success.
Yeah, not so much.
Would rather the Giants focus on running efficiently and throughout the whole game versus establishing something at the beginning for the sake of it. That's not winning offensive football in 2021.
And while 40 dropbacks may be a bit excessive, having Jones somewhere in the middle 30's on pass attempts per game is fine if he taking care of the ball. I think he averaged in the low 30s last year and the Giants clearly have more options this season.
Not so sure you comprehend what establishing the run means - it doesn’t mean abandoning it... it means our offense will feed off of a strong running game. That running game will help open everything else up. We will not be sitting back in a west coast offense doing dink and dunk passes.
We will run the ball, incorporate motion, screens, designed QB runs and sweeps, which will open up a lot more deep ball attempts which is where jones is the best, and where we added the biggest weapon on Golladay.
Not sure how anyone doesn’t see that, but that will be the case.
I've long wondered why collectively the Giants staff continues to insist he's an all purpose RB, when he clearly doesn't like being confined to running the ball inside, and isn't very good at it. By contrast, it's Booker's and Clement's bread and butter. So my hope is they begin to exploit his exceptional abilities more by getting him in motion to attack the edge, or lining him up as a receiver. Would eventually love to see he and Toney in the backfield together on some plays.
Jones is still slow going through his progressions, which was an issue coming out of school, and doesn't look as if it's ever going to be a strong point. He looks pretty damn good when he can get the ball out of his hands fast with touch, or can threaten a run. So why not more RPO with Jones?
I think the Giants now have the talent on the squad to run the football equivalent of a fast break offense with lots of motion, misdirection and quick slants, outs and crossing routes underneath. Toney or Shepard? Why not Toney AND Shepard!
Essentially, I would like to see a speeded up offense with more quick developing routes, coupled with RB's coming out of the backfield as receivers, or attacking the edges as a runner on 1st and 2nd downs, compared to primarily runs up the gut.
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In comment 15265540 Bergen346 said:
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Will not be successful if Jones is dropping back 40 times a game.
They need to establish the run and base they’re offense off of the run, opening up the passing game. Jones is a distributor - not a Patrick Mahomes - I think we can all agree on that.
Establish the run early, open up play action, screens and deep balls.
Every game we won last year came when we were able to establish the run early. That will be the key to our success.
Yeah, not so much.
Would rather the Giants focus on running efficiently and throughout the whole game versus establishing something at the beginning for the sake of it. That's not winning offensive football in 2021.
And while 40 dropbacks may be a bit excessive, having Jones somewhere in the middle 30's on pass attempts per game is fine if he taking care of the ball. I think he averaged in the low 30s last year and the Giants clearly have more options this season.
Not so sure you comprehend what establishing the run means - it doesn’t mean abandoning it... it means our offense will feed off of a strong running game. That running game will help open everything else up. We will not be sitting back in a west coast offense doing dink and dunk passes.
We will run the ball, incorporate motion, screens, designed QB runs and sweeps, which will open up a lot more deep ball attempts which is where jones is the best, and where we added the biggest weapon on Golladay.
Not sure how anyone doesn’t see that, but that will be the case.
Coming out to establish the run and waiting for that to happen before opening up the Offense to everything else is inefficient. Nor does it mean default to a west coast style. Productive offenses today incorporate passing and running with extensive mix and play variety, using multiple players and looks. And also putting the ball in play at various depths all over the field so defenses have to extend themselves creating gaps/spaces to attack. Hopefully this will be the case.
Thoughts?
Not so sure you comprehend what establishing the run means - it doesn’t mean abandoning it... it means our offense will feed off of a strong running game. That running game will help open everything else up. We will not be sitting back in a west coast offense doing dink and dunk passes.
We will run the ball, incorporate motion, screens, designed QB runs and sweeps, which will open up a lot more deep ball attempts which is where jones is the best, and where we added the biggest weapon on Golladay.
Not sure how anyone doesn’t see that, but that will be the case.
Coming out to establish the run and waiting for that to happen before opening up the Offense to everything else is inefficient. Nor does it mean default to a west coast style. Productive offenses today incorporate passing and running with extensive mix and play variety, using multiple players and looks. And also putting the ball in play at various depths all over the field so defenses have to extend themselves creating gaps/spaces to attack. Hopefully this will be the case.
Go look at the Titans and there PPG last year, with a terrible defense that kept them off the field. Everything they do flows through their run game.
Also, if defenses are geared up and selecting personnel to stop a passing league, gashing a team with a highly efficient run game IS opening things up.
I don't yet know what they will be good at doing but I'll bet it will be fun to watch.
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In comment 15265500 bw in dc said:
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in today's NFL, I hope we...
-- significantly increase our passing attempts
-- pass to set-up the run
-- use a higher rate of bubble screens, esp. w/Toney
-- get more creative with Barkley in the passing game
> motion him more to move the defense
> line him up at the Z and X
> if the OL is competent, more screens
-- pressure the D by forcing the ball downfield to KG
-- use Jones on designed runs
-- get Jones out of the pocket on designed throws
-- go for it more on 4th down
Like all of this.
I'm starting to wonder how much of Barkley we're going to see in 2021, though.
They've signed two veteran running backs, drafted another, and their first round pick figures to be a Swiss Army Knife that gets just the types of touches you'd like to see Barkley get.
I’ve said this in other threads, but I truly feel Barkley will be on a pitch count the first 5-6 games this year, maybe more. We’ll see a lot of Booker and Clement early on.
Absolutely. Maybe even a pitch count all year long.
The Giants can say all the right things in terms of Barkley being ready for August but what the Giants say is irrelevant. It's what they do that matters and I still think the Bark injury is worse than the typical ACL knee injury. Actually I am certain of it. It wasn't just an ACL tear.
lol, yeah...ok.
You win by getting first downs, sustaining drives and scoring in the red zone. Many ways to skin a cat.
You win by getting first downs, sustaining drives and scoring in the red zone. Many ways to skin a cat.
Tennessee has a better running back and offensive line than we do. Cleveland has two better running backs and a much better offensive line than we do. Baltimore has a quarterback who is a better runner than any of our running backs, and a better offensive line.
Are the Giants going to start running Jones 10+ times a game? Did their offensive line suddenly become really good?
You win by getting first downs, sustaining drives and scoring in the red zone. Many ways to skin a cat.
Who said you have to pass "a ton"?
Whether you like it or not, and I'm a fan who prefers smash mouth football having grown up learning the game in the '80s/'90s, the outcome of games are dictated by passing. Which, of course, is a derivative of the rules.
Over the last fifteen years rushing attempts per game have decreased steadily YoY. For example, in 2006, the attempts per game were 28.2. Over the past three years, the average rushing attempts have shrunk to 26.2. A 7% decline.
Meanwhile, over that same three year span, it's the lowest rushing attempts ever in the NFL. In contrast, passing attempts are at an historic high the last decade at 35+ per game. In the early '00s, that average number was basically 32 per game. So passing attempts have increased 9%+.
And to really underscore the passing transformation, the average TD passes per game is an average of 1.7 per game. Another historic high. At the beginning of the '00s, the numbers was about 1.3 TD passes per game. That's a 31% increase!
Sure, there are outliers - Ravens and Titans. But those are two teams playing with very unusual players in Lamar Jackson and Derrick Henry.
But those teams hit a playoff ceiling because they have struggled to pass the deeper they marched into the playoffs.
It's a passing league - pure and simple.
The Coryell offense that Garrett learned from Turner and Zampese doesn’t rely on being cute in the passing game. It relies on running the ball to set up the pass and then taking lots of shots. It’s a pretty modern offense actually.
The Cowboys had 3 WRs with 50+ catches at 15+ YPC in 2019. That’s exactly what I expect from the Giants.
The question is whether the new right side of the line can hold up in pass pro, and not get Jones beat like a bag.
I don't know. Christian's post below yours seems pretty reasonable.
To me using the run to set up the pass is establishing the run, but we're veering towards semantics I guess.
If you use play-action on your 1st play from scrimmage, you are using the run to set up the pass...and you haven't yet "established the run." (which is a fancy way of stating that the team is running the ball well)
But, that is not sustainable.
In the same way that Counter isn't going to be successful if you can't run Power. Unless your reputation as a running team is very strong, counters, pass or run, will not be sustainable.
So, if you would like to use the run to set up the pass, your opponent needs to believe that you will be able to run the ball.
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the pass are not the same thing. Or at least they probably should not be thought of in such similar context when describing Offenses in 2021.
To me using the run to set up the pass is establishing the run, but we're veering towards semantics I guess.
Yeah I don't, and based on some of the comments above that may be causing some of the different takes on the topic.
Different teams may have different definitions of "establishing the run" which takes away the simplicity of "establishing the run game is foolish".
That's bunch of poppy cock, there is plenty of current evidence that establishing the run is, and can be, a successful football model.
There's also plenty of current evidence that a team relying on a high powered pass game can be derailed
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You can stop reading after that. They may as well be riding a penny-farthing while they post that.
That's bunch of poppy cock, there is plenty of current evidence that establishing the run is, and can be, a successful football model.
There's also plenty of current evidence that a team relying on a high powered pass game can be derailed
Agreed, clearly some teams out there are run first/run often and have used it to very good success. Just as I presume it won't be hard to find successful teams doing the opposite today.
Probably why most seem to strive for some semblance of balance based on the strength of their starters and what they believe they do well. And maybe moreso what they don't...
-- Dave Gettleman, 2018
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“But at the end of the day, it’s the three things you’ve had to do in 1935 that you got to do now in 2018. You got to run the ball. You got to stop the run. You got to pressure the passer.”
-- Dave Gettleman, 2018
Bw, is the running game basically useless in regards to winning in today's NFL?
Serious question.
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“But at the end of the day, it’s the three things you’ve had to do in 1935 that you got to do now in 2018. You got to run the ball. You got to stop the run. You got to pressure the passer.”
-- Dave Gettleman, 2018
Almost all of it.
Ignore what they say, focus on what they do or you will be conned.
Bw, is the running game basically useless in regards to winning in today's NFL?
Serious question.
Oh, God no. Ideally, you want to be multi-dimensional and do both.
Pass for chunk plays and to score points. And run to establish a physical presence, keep the defense off balance, convert short yardage situations, eat clock with the lead, etc.
But with the rules geared to encourage passing, the college game moving to the spread, the changing supply of college OLs (less run physical run blockers), mobile NFL ready QBs from college, greater supply of quality WRs from college, etc those terms dictate teams to throw more and more.
I wish it was different - I grew up loving the running game to dominate an opponent - but you have to adapt or die. Or have such an unusual player like a Lamar Jackson that changes the dynamics of running production.
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Bw, is the running game basically useless in regards to winning in today's NFL?
Serious question.
Oh, God no. Ideally, you want to be multi-dimensional and do both.
Pass for chunk plays and to score points. And run to establish a physical presence, keep the defense off balance, convert short yardage situations, eat clock with the lead, etc.
But with the rules geared to encourage passing, the college game moving to the spread, the changing supply of college OLs (less run physical run blockers), mobile NFL ready QBs from college, greater supply of quality WRs from college, etc those terms dictate teams to throw more and more.
I wish it was different - I grew up loving the running game to dominate an opponent - but you have to adapt or die. Or have such an unusual player like a Lamar Jackson that changes the dynamics of running production.
Thanks Bw for your answer and honesty. I couldn't dispute anything you said if I wanted to.
One of the most statistically predictable advantages in all of football is play action. Even if you’re not running the ball well, faking the run is a huge advantage to an offense. Analytically, I wonder if the only general advantage to running (aside from short yardage, killing the clock etc.) — is to just keep a defense honest.
Running the football has a time and place, and is in the mix to some degree for all teams. It’s always about down, distance, strategy, talent advantage, situation.
Passing the ball is the most efficient way to gain yards. There are a minority of teams with the talent advantage to run the ball more, and I assume they feel over 2 plays they are statistically more likely to gain 10 yards if they run than pass. The majority of teams play the odds and pass more.
The Giants in this system are going to pass the ball, deep, downfield, a bunch.
Unless the line falls to pieces, this is what you want. Jones is a good deep passer, you signed Galloday, you draft Toney, you sign Rudolph. You have Slayton.
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“But at the end of the day, it’s the three things you’ve had to do in 1935 that you got to do now in 2018. You got to run the ball. You got to stop the run. You got to pressure the passer.”
-- Dave Gettleman, 2018
Took him four offseasons to get around to that last one.
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this is flat out false no matter how loudly or frequently you say otherwise. Titans ran the ball a ton. Ravens ran the ball a ton. Browns ran the ball a ton. Those teams all made the playoffs.
You win by getting first downs, sustaining drives and scoring in the red zone. Many ways to skin a cat.
Tennessee has a better running back and offensive line than we do. Cleveland has two better running backs and a much better offensive line than we do. Baltimore has a quarterback who is a better runner than any of our running backs, and a better offensive line.
Are the Giants going to start running Jones 10+ times a game? Did their offensive line suddenly become really good?
That isn't the point of contention. Ground and pound can still win. Many insist it doesn't.
MAybe see how the team plays this year in year 2. You would have punted on the 84 Giants. Was that 84 Giants team expected to throw for 4000 yards?
Year 1 to year 2 is a big deal. Maybe let things play out first. You continue to ignore 2020 was YEAR ONE. Not year 10. Not year 8. Not year 3. ONE.
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“But at the end of the day, it’s the three things you’ve had to do in 1935 that you got to do now in 2018. You got to run the ball. You got to stop the run. You got to pressure the passer.”
-- Dave Gettleman, 2018
Took him four offseasons to get around to that last one.
Yes because we all know it only takes 1-2 years to completely nuke and rebuild an NFL roster.
Love how everyone ignores how locked in that 17-18 roster was. You can't just cut or trade the entire team in one month.
Running games also work better than passing offenses in the cold. I remember watching Week 16 in 2008, Patriots vs. Cardinals, where the Cardinals' vaunted passing game led by Kurt Warner and Larry Fitzgerald, unused to the cold weather, only completed 12 out of 32 passes and nearly got shut out 47-7 if not for a garbage-time touchdown from Matt Leinart to Fitzgerald.
Of course everything hinges on the offensive line, they have to do their jobs opening holes for running backs and protecting Jones so he has enough time to throw.
The dominant position of an offense is the defense truly believing either is an option on every down. When a defense knows you don’t have a choice, the offense’s job becomes very difficult.
When it comes to architecting the team, the supply for a run first, trenches offensive is just much lower. As BW noted, the parts are less available.
Maybe Gettleman and Shurmur felt that way, and maybe that was their vision. But they sucked at it. The Giants didn’t run the ball well under Shurmur.
It sure as hell doesn’t seem Judge and Garrett want that identity.
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Doesn’t do that.
Barkley doesn't do that?
NewsFlash: You can't have a north-south running game when your Center/Guards get blown up.
Notice how well Sequon ran up the gut when he had actual holes up the middle, like he had at Penn State!
Only the third video is what someone might reasonably consider a N/S runner.
That's not a knock against Barkley. But he's not a pound-it RB, nor should he be. And really, neither are Booker or Clement. The premise is flawed.
They're all good all-around RBs, who offer something in the passing game. And their skills sets are similar, so the scheme shouldn't have to pivot too dramatically if there is an injury.
Also as mentioned, play action has become more and more effective weapon as a point producer for NFL teams over recent years. Suggesting the run game’s importance and place to set up the more impactful pass albeit not be the focal point.
Jump to play action section - ( New Window )
Good read and consistent with the theme.
Highest expected points added per play...scheme this!