If you have seen any TV discussions on the New York Giants in the last few weeks, almost universally the same argument is made by every pundit:
"The Giants have done everything to surround Daniel Jones with talent. He is out of excuses. The fate of the team rests with him."
Then many of these same pundits use this as an opportunity to say they don't believe in Daniel Jones and that's why the Giants won't finish first in the NFC East.
While I do think there is a great deal of merit in what they say about how important QB play will be in determining the fate of the Giants, I'm surprised that none of these media discussions have addressed the elephant in the room:
For better or worse, the Giants did very little this offseason in addressing the offensive line, the well-known Achilles heel of the team for the past decade.
Kevin Zeitler was let go. Zach Fulton was added in free agency. Nate Solder returns as insurance depth. Jonotthan Harrison replaces Spencer Pulley as back-up center.
In other words, not much changed. As has been discussed nauseam on BBI, Gettleman and Judge are putting their faith in the new OL coaching (Rob Sale and Pat Flaherty) and the development of the young guys (Thomas, Lemieux, Gates, Peart, and even Hernandez).
But this argument that it is "all on Daniel Jones" doesn't address the fact that the franchise is taking a big gamble by standing pat on the OL. Now I'm optimistic about the OL, but if they don't make a big jump in their play, this offense is still going to have major issues. It won't be as bad as it was last year because the upgrade in the other skill positions has been so dramatic, but the OL still needs to keep Jones upright and open holes for Barkley and the other new running backs.
I just find it extremely odd that every pundit keeps saying, "it's all on Daniel Jones." I would argue, "much depends on Jones and the offensive line."
For me I feel good about the rest of the team. But it's hard to turn a bling eye to OL and QB deficiencies.
Going on the assumption that Judge and staff know what they're doing and can put a winning season together with this group - on paper much better than last year.
For me I feel good about the rest of the team. But it's hard to turn a bling eye to OL and QB deficiencies.
Going on the assumption that Judge and staff know what they're doing and can put a winning season together with this group - on paper much better than last year.
Typical casual fan. Even my wife knew we received the Bears’ first rounder for 2022..I never talk seriously with a casual fan..
- release Kevin Zeitler and sign Zach Fulton to compete for a starting Guard job
- presumably promote Matt Peart to starting Right Tackle job
Clearly the Giants are assuming the existing Olinemen will just play better and that sounds like quite a risky strategy...
My take is that I'm way more worried about the OL than the QB.
We all know 3 keys
Garrett's system
OL
Daniel Jones
We assume the defense will be very solid..top 10 if not top 5.
Judge knows the system must improve and get more creative....this must be priority behind close doors.
It is odd that so little was done with OL. I think familiarity and growth should improve 4 of the 5 spots...it is likely that Gates and Thomas will play better. LG and Peart should also show growth and improvement.....enough improvement? So RG is biggest question mark.
Rudolph should help.
Even Barkley, and new WRs should add value....
OL has been the team Achilles for a decade.....Gettleman has shown to have a good eye on OL talent.
But make no mistake, there’s a lot of pressure on Daniel Jones to perform even if the o-line isn’t significantly better. (Life ain’t fair.) That pressure isn’t about fans or media… it’s about his career. If he doesn’t convince the organization that he’s the man in the next 17 games, he might not get 17 more beyond that.
Well, he may have an "excuse" if the offensive line can't protect him. If you go back and watch the team last year, while there were times when Jones held onto the ball too long, for the most part, his sacks were the result of him having no chance.
If the line doesn't improve, it won't matter if they move onto a new QB in 2022. He will be facing the same problem as Manning and Jones.
I think Peart and Thomas are going to work out and, at least for this year, Solder is pretty good insurance. I am stunned when I think about the number of players who have been run through the RG position over the past 5-6 years. The best player, Brown, was allowed to leave without an attempt to get him to stay. Just hoping they can assemble an adequate LG-RG combination from among LeMieux, Hernandez, Fulton, and maybe Harrison or one of the Free agent veterans or UDFAs. Fulton may not rate highly but rarely does a players start so many games in the league who isn’t at least adequate.
If the line doesn't improve, it won't matter if they move onto a new QB in 2022. He will be facing the same problem as Manning and Jones.
You might be 100% right. We’ll see if Judge and his staff can accomplish what they’re hoping to with the same people on the o-line.
People also clearly dismiss Jones' first season. Yes he fumbled way too much, both his fault and his line's fault. Last year he showed a bit of regression - more if you hated the pick and less if you are willing to let him prove himself. He had no weapons and what weapons he did have were basically injured, including himself.
If he continues to fumble this year, time to move on. All QBs throw INTs, but there are bad ones. Remember 6 were caused by Engram getting hit in the hands - 6. The fumbles were down last year. But so were TDs.
I just hope JJ is correct that they can build the line with what they have. We all need to also understand most lines have 3-4 JAGS that playe well together.
Perfectly said Tuckrule I trust Judges vision....I'd also say last year teams dared us to run and were sending the house along with not having a great blocking TE which we have also added this year along with Barkley back.
The Giants have done plenty to support Jones. Can't expect a pro bowl player at every position.
I think Peart and Thomas are going to work out and, at least for this year, Solder is pretty good insurance. I am stunned when I think about the number of players who have been run through the RG position over the past 5-6 years. The best player, Brown, was allowed to leave without an attempt to get him to stay. Just hoping they can assemble an adequate LG-RG combination from among LeMieux, Hernandez, Fulton, and maybe Harrison or one of the Free agent veterans or UDFAs. Fulton may not rate highly but rarely does a players start so many games in the league who isn’t at least adequate.
Best player Brown? Did you mean Fluker?
I'm hopeful that Nate Solder at 33 years old, benefits from having a full season off. His body has taken alot of wear and tear over the years, so the rest possibly could help.
I'm hopeful that Jones will step up if the O-line shows some improvements and with all the skill players added to the team.
I'm also hopeful with all the extra 2022 draft picks, if things backfire at QB or O-line, we'll have the draft capital to make some course corrections if needed.
Being HOPEFUL has been the best I've felt about the Giants for a very long time entering a season. I'll take it!
OK but 1st, 3rd and 5th mean nothing if they stink and Solder continues to stink.
It is a team game. The oline needs to play well and stay away from injuries. The skill players need to play well and stay away from injuries. The coaches need to install good game plans and make adjustments. The defense needs to get off the field.
Too much gets put on the QB - both in terms of success and failure.
We had a really solid defense last year, and in Year 2 of Graham and a few additions through draft/free agency, I'd be surprised if it's not a top 10 unit.
Added Golladay, Rudolph, Toney, Barkley ... line is a question, but it was serviceable the second half of last year.
So it comes down to Jones. It's simple - if he improves, he gets another year. If he isn't cutting it, we will trade from our plethora of 2022 picks to get Russell Wilson or move up in the draft. If all goes well this year (and I know it rarely does), the team is poised to be quite good everywhere - QB could be the last piece. Similar to San Fran ... built a phenomenal roster, and if they were correct on Lance, they are going to be a force. I see Giants in a similar position.
It is a team game. The oline needs to play well and stay away from injuries. The skill players need to play well and stay away from injuries. The coaches need to install good game plans and make adjustments. The defense needs to get off the field.
Too much gets put on the QB - both in terms of success and failure.
I agree, it’s funny listening to the media talk about how Jones has no excuses now, etc. I’ve never heard the guy make an excuse about anything at all. If anything he has been overly critical of his own play when you consider the skill position players he was surrounded by last year.
Totally agree with you. If the team doesn’t let some of these younger players develop they’ll just keep picking offensive lineman in the first two rounds every year and other positions will be ignored.
"No more excuses". I know people hate the word narrative but this is a textbook narrative.
The media panders to the common fan.
They play off of each other.
They don't subscribe to ultimatums like "no more excuses". It's a completely different mindset.
I am optimistic because I think incremental improvements all over the offense will pay big dividends.
1) OL needs to improve this will help Jones. The good nes is they did down the stretch. The young guys also got experience.
2) Jones needs to improve his pocket presence. This will also help the OL. He may or may not, but the guy is working hard that is pretty clear. He has the physical tools.
3) Skill position play needs to improve. Defenses were not afraid of our receivers last year, that was pretty clear.
4) Offensive scheme. Garrett needs to be better. Period. He certainly has the added talent now.
I personally don't need to see Jones make this HUGE jump that many are talking about. I have seen enough from him that incremental improvement coupled with elevated levels of play and coaching from every facet of the offense can turn this into a very good team. That's where my optimism lies.
The FO and staff secured skill players that will give them a better chance of forcing the defense to defend the entire field. A defense can’t dictate and take away what you do well when you do multiple things well.
The OL “gamble” is quite like the OC “gamble” of last year. Gates paid dividends. I’m confident it’ll happen again. Each player incrementally improves and the scheme is more multiple because the skill players allow it to grow.
Lastly, the quarterback just needs to execute the gameplan and make a few off schedule plays a game. He’s capable.
Here’s to health and a hell of a lot more fun on Sundays.
The FO and staff secured skill players that will give them a better chance of forcing the defense to defend the entire field. A defense can’t dictate and take away what you do well when you do multiple things well.
The OL “gamble” is quite like the OC “gamble” of last year. Gates paid dividends. I’m confident it’ll happen again. Each player incrementally improves and the scheme is more multiple because the skill players allow it to grow.
Lastly, the quarterback just needs to execute the gameplan and make a few off schedule plays a game. He’s capable.
Here’s to health and a hell of a lot more fun on Sundays.
Great post.
Why? because it works.Ever since they drafted this guy,and it got the reaction it did,they've had a portion of the fan base in the palm of their hands.
People love hearing things like "No excuses".
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1st 3rd 5th round draft pick in 2020. Return of Solder and signed Fulton. Very few QBs stand behind the great wall. He can use his legs, his mind, or make an off schedule play. He is in the big boy league now.
OK but 1st, 3rd and 5th mean nothing if they stink and Solder continues to stink.
Be the guy. It is a lot of pressure, this is what it means to be the QB of the NY Football Giants. Do you have what it takes?
The good news is this OL while young has demonstrated ability to run block and they added a good blocking TE. If Garrett can get the offense into favorable down and distance there is good potential. If Barkley and the other backs are routinely tackled at the LOS or behind I think Jones and the Giants will struggle significantly. With Barley back and the improved receiving threats I expect the Giants to run for 135+ per game. Jones will then have to capitalize.
The good news is this OL while young has demonstrated ability to run block and they added a good blocking TE. If Garrett can get the offense into favorable down and distance there is good potential. If Barkley and the other backs are routinely tackled at the LOS or behind I think Jones and the Giants will struggle significantly. With Barley back and the improved receiving threats I expect the Giants to run for 135+ per game. Jones will then have to capitalize.
Well they were able to do that because the running game was superb. You could count on Tiki/Bradshaw/Jacobs getting 3-5 yards per touch.
In the second half, as the line deteriorated, and Bradshaw and Jacobs aged, they were getting hit in the backfield, and Jacobs could not power his way for those extra yards anymore. As the o-line deteriorated further, they could not sustain blocks for the 5-7 drops required in the Coughlin/Gilbride offense.
It all went back to the deterioration of the offensive line, and the lack of running game.
I really think we underestimate how big a deal it was to go into a new year with a new C that never played before there, and a rookie OLT that had 0 preseason games. Then we faced tough Ds right away, and SB got hurt. I think the OL and Jones improved after the first few games as they settled in. Imagine if those first few games were preseason, we’d have hit the ground in much better OL shape.
I hate the narrative that it’s all on DJ, and if he’s not Tom Brady now he suxed. The question is whether he’s developing, and continuing to develop. Same with the rest of the team. It may not happen instantly. As long as it’s moving forward it will be a relief after a decade of treading water.
The OL is a big question mark; and the biggest bet by the Gettleman and Judge heading into '21.
However, the success of the season still falls on Jones. Sure, it could get more challenging if the OL is inconsistent. But Jones is the 6th pick so he needs to figure it out.
It's a heavy burden being an NFL QB, especially a high investment...
No matter what the Giants decide to do with DJ moving forward, I will support them..But to his credit, even with a lack of a good OL, he was moving the team with his arm and his wheels, imv.
So, yes, I’m optimistic..
I really think we underestimate how big a deal it was to go into a new year with a new C that never played before there, and a rookie OLT that had 0 preseason games. Then we faced tough Ds right away, and SB got hurt. I think the OL and Jones improved after the first few games as they settled in. Imagine if those first few games were preseason, we’d have hit the ground in much better OL shape.
I hate the narrative that it’s all on DJ, and if he’s not Tom Brady now he suxed. The question is whether he’s developing, and continuing to develop. Same with the rest of the team. It may not happen instantly. As long as it’s moving forward it will be a relief after a decade of treading water.
People's patience and attention spans are probably shorter than ever before. There is also the need for instant gratification.
I know some would say that gratification is overdue since we really have sucked for about ten years, but that is also the inability to separate pre-2018 and post 2018. I understand how all that losing could get lumped together, but they have to be looked at as two different eras.
Fans need a villain or scapegoat or talking point. Enter #8.
If Jones looks like shit in 2021, the team likely played a big role in that. Coaches don't start QBs for very long unless they are certain the QB can play within the confines of the team they have built.
Or, you could be one the know it alls and claim to know more.
Never have bought Into the idea it s all on him, or this is his make or break year.
Seems he is often defined by mistakes other quarterbacks all around and he league make every Sunday
I saw Eli turn the ball over often during his career , but never be defined by them.
Dave, if you believe as strongly in Judge as I do, you’d probably be better served (for your mental well being, 😎) to start with 2020 as I have and go from there.
Several third year quarterbacks (Mahomes, Jackson, Watson, Allen) have played excellent football while leading their teams to division titles and the playoffs. It's perfectly reasonable to expect the same from Jones at this point.
Well, I think most people think Mahomes is a pretty great young QB. But anyone who watched Mahomes in the superbowl saw what it was like to be a Giants QB for the last 6+ years. Mahomes did what he could, but (despite all of his weapons) he couldn't carry the team on his back because he was too busy running for his life.
It's great that they got Jones all of these weapons. And I hope the Giants are right about their young OLs being better than the outside world thinks they are.
Further, the Giants still could, and if necessary, SHOULD trade for a GOOD, starting veteran OL before the season. The have a lot of extra draft picks they could make a deal with.
As for Jones, all he really needs to do is cut down (further) on the fumbling and the unforced errors. His brains, passing skills, mobility, toughness, and work ethic are not in question. Make sure he's adequately protected and I think we'll see him blossom.
Ha, ditto my brutha
Well, I think most people think Mahomes is a pretty great young QB. But anyone who watched Mahomes in the superbowl saw what it was like to be a Giants QB for the last 6+ years. Mahomes did what he could, but (despite all of his weapons) he couldn't carry the team on his back because he was too busy running for his life.
It's great that they got Jones all of these weapons. And I hope the Giants are right about their young OLs being better than the outside world thinks they are.
Further, the Giants still could, and if necessary, SHOULD trade for a GOOD, starting veteran OL before the season. The have a lot of extra draft picks they could make a deal with.
As for Jones, all he really needs to do is cut down (further) on the fumbling and the unforced errors. His brains, passing skills, mobility, toughness, and work ethic are not in question. Make sure he's adequately protected and I think we'll see him blossom.
Or Brady against us in XLII, where we terrorized him, until, according to Spags, Brady’s last scoring drive, when he played with us because Spags pulled the metal off the pedal, his major regret..
Jones played worse than Pisarchik in 2020. I can't have that in 2021. If he does it again, they need to ship him the fuck out of here. I am not suggesting he has to be the MVP but he has to be markedly better in 2021.
We can trade for a veteran or move up to draft one. If we are sitting at 12 or higher, do whatever it takes to get a new one. If Daniel Jones doesn't like that, he can win some fucking games by elevating those around him with great play.
Jones played worse than Pisarchik in 2020. I can't have that in 2021. If he does it again, they need to ship him the fuck out of here. I am not suggesting he has to be the MVP but he has to be markedly better in 2021.
We can trade for a veteran or move up to draft one. If we are sitting at 12 or higher, do whatever it takes to get a new one. If Daniel Jones doesn't like that, he can win some fucking games by elevating those around him with great play.
Yes, he played rather terribly the beginning of the season, until he got his bearings and was moving us quite well PRE-INJURY, even with our mediocre OL..Comparing his output to Piscarcik once he got his bearings before the hammy and Ankle injuries is silly and very unfair, imv
You’re certainly entitled to your feel on this..Bowing out now (yet again)…😎
They don't subscribe to ultimatums like "no more excuses". It's a completely different mindset.
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They are in a completely different mindset. They have eyes on all facets of what's going on out there and trying to fix things. They evaluate players and try to put them in positions to succeed.
They don't subscribe to ultimatums like "no more excuses". It's a completely different mindset.
100% accurate!
That's very well put. The divide between fans and the football people is that fans crave that one neck to choke. They want and easy answer as toy why the team struggles. They want to jettison one guy and pin the blame on him.
And when that guy gets jettisoned and the team still isn't good, they move on to the next target. The way end of career Eli was treated by some "fans" was pretty fucking embarrassing.
I had pointed to how Colt McCoy had cut the Giants sacks per play percentage IN HALF when he started instead of Jones. So we have Jones performing much worse than a career backup in a key QB area.
So you need to evaluate two interacting variables here and not pretend Jones has to be propped up by one. The OL needs to help Jones play well and Jones needs to help his OL play well.
1. We have to make a decision on Jones's 5th year option after the 2021 season
2. Is Jones worth paying $20M+ for the 2023 season if we do pick up that option? $30M+ after that?
3. We have two 1st round draft picks in 2022; does it make more sense to use one (or both) of those picks to get a QB whose scouting and selection Judge can oversee
There are many reasons this three year period has been as bad as its been, but resource allocation has to be near the top of that list of culprits.
Any decision regarding Jones must be done with an eye towards optimal resource allocation.
The Giants to me have significantly upgraded their roster. They question is can they meld all of the new pieces into a cohesively functioning team, and can it be done by opening day. Jones is part of that process.
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In comment 15270729 Britt in VA said:
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They are in a completely different mindset. They have eyes on all facets of what's going on out there and trying to fix things. They evaluate players and try to put them in positions to succeed.
They don't subscribe to ultimatums like "no more excuses". It's a completely different mindset.
100% accurate!
That's very well put. The divide between fans and the football people is that fans crave that one neck to choke. They want and easy answer as toy why the team struggles. They want to jettison one guy and pin the blame on him.
And when that guy gets jettisoned and the team still isn't good, they move on to the next target. The way end of career Eli was treated by some "fans" was pretty fucking embarrassing.
So true. We have some many Samsung GM's here who make all there personnel evaluations and decide for the team based on snippets of two-inch tall guys.
Yes the coaches and GM mindset is different but moreso with regard to time because even though there are 53 guys, their options to change things is limited.
Wow! You are highlighting a 5th round pick. I guess Anthony Munoz is right there on our team before our eyes but we don't know it?
And many 3rd round picks turn out to be nothing more than mediocre at best - but not our guy says you, an unbias Giants fan, right?
And wow - we have Nate Solder!! Thank you for bringing up such a former "stellar New York Giant performer," that so great to look forward to.
When you make a comment about a "Great Wall" - did you happen to mention how the Giants supposed "Great Wall" might be made of sandstone?
The fact you mentioned "Great Wall" at all- thanks for the laugh.
Let me put it this way.
When the coaches are watching film, and let's say a particular play ends with D Jones getting hit and fumbling.... Their main concern isn't the fumble. They're not trying to fix the fumble. They're dissecting the how/what/why of each individual play. You mentioned protection, so we'll start there. 1. Was the play called appropriate vs. what the defense was showing? 2. If so, did the QB and offensive line pick up the proper protection assignments. 3. If so, where was the breakdown? 4. How can we fix that breakdown through scheme or adjusting personnel. The concern is not that Jones fumbled, although the fan would say "Another fumble, no more excuses!" But in actuality, the concern is how to fix why it happened in the moment. Fix it for the next play, the next series, the next quarter, or next week.
They don't view the breakdown as an "excuse". They view it as something to fix.
Do they want Jones to fumble? No. But that is much farther down the list of what they are trying to correct on any given play.
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They are in a completely different mindset. They have eyes on all facets of what's going on out there and trying to fix things. They evaluate players and try to put them in positions to succeed.
They don't subscribe to ultimatums like "no more excuses". It's a completely different mindset.
100% accurate!
Uh, have you watched Mara's state of union this year?
He's basically said no more excuses, and largely driven by a big offseason spending spree.
Further, if the GM and HC aren't more in that no more excuses mindset than we have, IMV, the wrong people in those jobs. Figure it out now.
Most ESPN viewers don't know the names of the linemen on the teams that they don't root for. ESPN is well aware of this and of the fact that unless a lineman is accused of murder or sodomy (preferably sodomy) the average ESPN viewer will switch channels about 15 seconds after the beginning of any discussion about other teams' linemen.
- not seeing Slayton wide open for free access TDs
- being late and slow delivering the football in the red zone
- seeing the field poorly pre and post snap
- poor mechanics and ball security in the pocket
- a general lack of pocket awareness that makes the OL's job harder
The Giants coaches see these things too, I'm sure. And I'm sure they're trying to fix these things as well.
Blaming the OL for Jones's performance may be comforting, but it's not the truth.
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In comment 15270729 Britt in VA said:
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They are in a completely different mindset. They have eyes on all facets of what's going on out there and trying to fix things. They evaluate players and try to put them in positions to succeed.
They don't subscribe to ultimatums like "no more excuses". It's a completely different mindset.
100% accurate!
Uh, have you watched Mara's state of union this year?
He's basically said no more excuses, and largely driven by a big offseason spending spree.
Further, if the GM and HC aren't more in that no more excuses mindset than we have, IMV, the wrong people in those jobs. Figure it out now.
I think an owner telling a HC/GM "no more excuses" on a macro level is different than what's being talked about here.
The new weapons will help and there may be some games where they really pay dividends. But, overall, over 17 games, if the OL isn't significantly better (that's how bad they've been) this offense will still struggle and Jones, in particular, will still struggle. He will still take too many hits, leading to turnovers and low 3rd down conversion rates. Until we prove we can stop it and make teams pay, they will continue to throw the kitchen sink at Jones.
I want to be 100% clear. This isn't to say I think Jones is or will be without blame. I am not sold either way. I just think the lack of a real OL has been and will continue to be a thorn in our side. Maybe Thomas, Lemieux, Hernandez, and Peart all progress and improve and Gates can either maintain his level of play or improve. But, look at that statement. We are relying on at least 4/5 of our OL to hake great strides and we still don't really know what camp will look like. This is a big leap of faith.
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While I thought it was ridiculous to hold Jones accountable for 2020 because of....everything. I feel like some some of you are trying to bake excuses in.
Jones played worse than Pisarchik in 2020. I can't have that in 2021. If he does it again, they need to ship him the fuck out of here. I am not suggesting he has to be the MVP but he has to be markedly better in 2021.
We can trade for a veteran or move up to draft one. If we are sitting at 12 or higher, do whatever it takes to get a new one. If Daniel Jones doesn't like that, he can win some fucking games by elevating those around him with great play.
Yes, he played rather terribly the beginning of the season, until he got his bearings and was moving us quite well PRE-INJURY, even with our mediocre OL..Comparing his output to Piscarcik once he got his bearings before the hammy and Ankle injuries is silly and very unfair, imv
The best part is. I think he going to shock people with how well he plays. That said:
My opinion is just an opinion.
I am tired of losing BB56. Really tired. I believe they put their money where their mouths are. They invested a significant amount of resources in place for him to succeed. Of course isn't perfect, but it never is.
It is firmly within his power to keep this job. I will be rooting like hell for him.
- not seeing Slayton wide open for free access TDs
- being late and slow delivering the football in the red zone
- seeing the field poorly pre and post snap
- poor mechanics and ball security in the pocket
- a general lack of pocket awareness that makes the OL's job harder
The Giants coaches see these things too, I'm sure. And I'm sure they're trying to fix these things as well.
Blaming the OL for Jones's performance may be comforting, but it's not the truth.
Well, they must not be seeing them enough in their offseason evaluation to consider not moving forward with Jones.
As I said above, the new weapons are certain to help. I'm sure there will be a few games where this offense explodes and I'm sure Golladay, Toney, Rudolph, etc. will play a big role in that. But, we can't point to a few big games and ignore the majority of games where we struggle to convert and score. We've been doing that for years. Hell, the rumor is that Gettleman based his entire first Giants offseason on 1 game of film from Eli, ignoring the other 15 games from that season. This will all start and end up front.
I think the 2nd half of the year is an illusion considering the Godawful division we were in and the crummy opponents and the lack of a game breaker which means there was no fear in the Giants run game.
That's the concern. When the Giants went 5-3 in their last 8 - one was a super game vs Seattle but 3 other wins were in their crummy division - a division regarded as the worst ever in Modern NFL History- and one win vs the crummy Bengals. Hardly a ringing endorsement.
As far as Hernandez- I hope you're right- but KI think your blue shade goggles are wrapped to tight around your forehead. I hope you're right.
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The "fan" is screaming about:
- not seeing Slayton wide open for free access TDs
- being late and slow delivering the football in the red zone
- seeing the field poorly pre and post snap
- poor mechanics and ball security in the pocket
- a general lack of pocket awareness that makes the OL's job harder
The Giants coaches see these things too, I'm sure. And I'm sure they're trying to fix these things as well.
Blaming the OL for Jones's performance may be comforting, but it's not the truth.
Well, they must not be seeing them enough in their offseason evaluation to consider not moving forward with Jones.
Maybe. Maybe they just didn't like the alternatives realistically available to them. Or maybe there are still people in decision making capacities whose jobs are tied to Jones being the QB. We don't know.
All we really know is what Jones has produced in his two seasons as a pro. And that speaks for itself.
David Carr was a top pick who got wrecked by a terrible OL in Houston. Did anyone care when he was eventually let go?
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In comment 15270729 Britt in VA said:
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They are in a completely different mindset. They have eyes on all facets of what's going on out there and trying to fix things. They evaluate players and try to put them in positions to succeed.
They don't subscribe to ultimatums like "no more excuses". It's a completely different mindset.
100% accurate!
Uh, have you watched Mara's state of union this year?
He's basically said no more excuses, and largely driven by a big offseason spending spree.
Further, if the GM and HC aren't more in that no more excuses mindset than we have, IMV, the wrong people in those jobs. Figure it out now.
I don't believe that it has much to do with Britt's point.
It may have to do with Judge's job security but nothing to do with what the coaches are looking at or how they evaluate play.
It's media/fan speak.
Several third year quarterbacks (Mahomes, Jackson, Watson, Allen) have played excellent football while leading their teams to division titles and the playoffs. It's perfectly reasonable to expect the same from Jones at this point.
I usually agree with a lot of what you say - but if that OL stinks - which it may very do--
then you're full of crap if you believe it's all on Jones.
Do you really believe OL's don't matter to QB's? What if the OL stinks? Not average -- but - STINKS.
I believe the Giants are entering 2021 with a major problem in the OL-Jones-Garrett relationship:
1. I don't think the starting OL is particularly good at pass blocking...particularly Lemieux and Hernandez. The tackles and the center are question marks...though I think the center may be the best of the bunch.
2. I think Jones's flaws are fundamental to his game, and are observable going back to Duke. I don't think his are the kinds of problems that you come to the NFL to fix. I think as long as he's the quarterback you've got to work around those flaws and play to his strengths (speed & ability to deliver the ball accurately to his first read). Which leads me to...
3. I think Garrett is a terrible marriage for Jones. Garrett wants to deliver the ball downfield off play action. That means pass protecting (a problem for our OL) for a quarterback who is in the pocket (a problem for Jones).
I think there's an alternate universe where Jones can be an effective enough (though upper echelon) QB...one focused on getting him out of the pocket and the ball out of his hands (or him running it) quickly. I think that could work. But that's not the current reality.
However, the success of the season still falls on Jones. Sure, it could get more challenging if the OL is inconsistent. But Jones is the 6th pick so he needs to figure it out.
It's a heavy burden being an NFL QB, especially a high investment...
Bullcrap.
How can you and terps ignore the OL to the degree you're doing other than a passing sentence on this subject? I'd expect this from the DG homers, but not the both of you. You've even been a heavy advocate for addressing the OL and you were very disappointed it was not addressed - and now it no longer matters or only a passing sentence you remark about it and then blow it off like it doesn't exist?
Saying that "Jones needs to figure it out," is like saying Julius Randle needs to figure out how to outplay all 3 of Durant, Harden, and Irving.
You and Terps know Jones is a pocket passer, don't you? How often will a pocket passer be good if his OL stinks? SO what are you going to do- throw all-time great QB's at me? C'mon if the OL stinks Jones can't be good. He's built for the pocket- not for being "Mahomes."
Wow-- you're another one taking advantage of legal marijuana for sale in some states? You must have some pretty fine "stuff."
135 yards rushing -- and with all the passing we would potential have? hahahhahahahahahahahaha Wow!!!!
Just wow!!!!!!!
Jones played worse than Pisarchik in 2020. I can't have that in 2021. If he does it again, they need to ship him the fuck out of here. I am not suggesting he has to be the MVP but he has to be markedly better in 2021.
We can trade for a veteran or move up to draft one. If we are sitting at 12 or higher, do whatever it takes to get a new one. If Daniel Jones doesn't like that, he can win some fucking games by elevating those around him with great play.
You're scaring me because you seem to want to ignore the OL in football as if it doesn't matter.
If teh OL is good or even "decent enough" I think you'd get very arguments. But you just want to completely discount the importance of an OL because you only want to look at last year's Jones performance is pretty mind-boggling.
Every team has position(s) where one injury puts them in a crisis situation due to salary cap and roster limitations. Who do the Ravens have at QB if Lamar Jackson gets injured? How about Green Bay at WR if Davante Adams is out again?
I know some would say that gratification is overdue since we really have sucked for about ten years, but that is also the inability to separate pre-2018 and post 2018. I understand how all that losing could get lumped together, but they have to be looked at as two different eras.
This was not about Daniel Jones. It was a direct response (which I quoted) to Daniel, who wrote:
I really think we underestimate how big a deal it was to go into a new year with a new C that never played before there, and a rookie OLT that had 0 preseason games. Then we faced tough Ds right away, and SB got hurt. I think the OL and Jones improved after the first few games as they settled in. Imagine if those first few games were preseason, we’d have hit the ground in much better OL shape.
I hate the narrative that it’s all on DJ, and if he’s not Tom Brady now he suxed. The question is whether he’s developing, and continuing to develop. Same with the rest of the team. It may not happen instantly. As long as it’s moving forward it will be a relief after a decade of treading water.
I was talking exclusively about his point about the offensive line.
Blaming the OL for Jones's performance may be comforting, but it's not the truth.
Ignoring how bad the OL was is nothing more thna burying one's head in the sand.
If you think the OL is improved then great, it might be. But not to acknowledge that it was bad and still might be a big question is the definition of what we get get from the Giant brass- and that's burying your head in the sand.
You're acting like Mara and Gettleman of the recent past if this is so.
If you think the OL is improved then great, it might be.
It's abundantly clear that he doesn't think that.
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While I thought it was ridiculous to hold Jones accountable for 2020 because of....everything. I feel like some some of you are trying to bake excuses in.
Jones played worse than Pisarchik in 2020. I can't have that in 2021. If he does it again, they need to ship him the fuck out of here. I am not suggesting he has to be the MVP but he has to be markedly better in 2021.
We can trade for a veteran or move up to draft one. If we are sitting at 12 or higher, do whatever it takes to get a new one. If Daniel Jones doesn't like that, he can win some fucking games by elevating those around him with great play.
You're scaring me because you seem to want to ignore the OL in football as if it doesn't matter.
If teh OL is good or even "decent enough" I think you'd get very arguments. But you just want to completely discount the importance of an OL because you only want to look at last year's Jones performance is pretty mind-boggling.
True or not?
Was Thomas a lot better in the second half or more like a bust?
I watched games, I thought Daniel Jones had time in the second half of the year. I expect the Thomas to improve as do I expect, WH, SL, Peart to better. Zeitler will hurt some, but htat wasn't All Pro Zeitler anymore. I think Solder ~ Flemming with potential to be batter. Fulton is decent depth. Gates is in Year 2.
I am flat out saying that is going to have to be good enough and a franchise QB would elevate them. Time to put or shut up. Not asking him to be an All Pro. I am asking that he not suck so bad that we pick top 12. That is a pretty low fucking bar. If he can't get over it, he can GTFO.
But there was no question we needed better receivers, edge rushers, and depth in the D-backfield.
Right?
Right?
Yes, that is my take away.
What if the O-line is playing well, and likewise Jones is playing well. The Giants start 6-2, hypothetically.
Then, Thomas goes down with a season ender. Then another linemen goes down for a season ender or extended time...
Excuse? Or just reality of the situation?
SO if the OL stinks. You see it for yourself that it is bad - then you don't care ONE IOTA how good Jones looks when he has time or if when his OL plays decent enough that he looks good?
None of that would matter one iota?
In fact I think they love Jones. I think he'll have to shit the bed for them to move on (and I don't think he will).
Everyone points to the draft picks for next year.. well they only got those because Smith was drafted by the Eagles. So they had no inclination of accumulating picks for QBs or otherwise. They are counting on Jones from what they are seeing from him in the film room, practice and on the field. I don't think Judge is in the "rationalization" business so I think he likes what he sees.
There is no "Make or break" thought process, it's let's get to the playoffs and make some noise.
I am selfish that way.
As I’ve maintained all along, I follow the “Fauci” or expertise in a given area..I trust the current regime’s beliefs, until otherwise proven to be wrong..After only 1 season (Covid, no preseason and building a new staff), I defer totally..
As I’ve maintained all along, I follow the “Fauci” or expertise in a given area..I trust the current regime’s beliefs, until otherwise proven to be wrong..After only 1 season (Covid, no preseason and building a new staff), I defer totally..
I'm with you. The difference is Fauci has a long record of excellence in his field. He's earned the trust we put in him.
I believe the Giants are entering 2021 with a major problem in the OL-Jones-Garrett relationship:
1. I don't think the starting OL is particularly good at pass blocking...particularly Lemieux and Hernandez. The tackles and the center are question marks..
I think there's an alternate universe where Jones can be an effective enough (though upper echelon) QB...one focused on getting him out of the pocket and the ball out of his hands (or him running it) quickly. I think that could work. But that's not the current reality.
"Not particularly good?"
C'mon. Why are you pulling punches here? I'm stunned. Me and you and bw have been agreeing a lot and now both of you guys are chickening-out on me?
"Not particularly good?" Did someone hack your account and this isn't the real Terps?
They were "bad" weren't they? And how confident are you in Peart? If he is no good and our guards we know may be also bad-- how does Jones - or any QB survive that UNLESS they are "Mahomes?" -- But Jones will never be Mahomes so does this mean he will always suck because he is not him?
I'd agree with that to the extent that we can't predict success. But its irrefutable that they have all the info on the player. Execution is a different and much bigger story than just Jones imo.
This is the first big gamble he’s taken. The Giants were so bad last year everything was low hanging fruit.
If the Giants don’t improve the output over Zeitler/Fleming — Jones is going to be in big trouble.
What if the O-line is playing well, and likewise Jones is playing well. The Giants start 6-2, hypothetically.
Then, Thomas goes down with a season ender. Then another linemen goes down for a season ender or extended time...
Excuse? Or just reality of the situation?
Would suggest that is not an excuse for Jones to start playing badly
The offense would likely not keep up its similar pace but it and Jones shouldn’t just go in the toilet either.
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at this point.
What if the O-line is playing well, and likewise Jones is playing well. The Giants start 6-2, hypothetically.
Then, Thomas goes down with a season ender. Then another linemen goes down for a season ender or extended time...
Excuse? Or just reality of the situation?
Would suggest that is not an excuse for Jones to start playing badly
The offense would likely not keep up its similar pace but it and Jones shouldn’t just go in the toilet either.
Well, I think that's kind of hard to fathom for me. Especially when we saw such a public display of what it can do to a QB as recently as a few months ago in the Superbowl.
Thank you, Britt. Reese does not deserve to be lumped in with those others under circumstances whatsoever.
He finished the game with a 52.3 passer rating, the worst of his career, while seeing 29 pressures, the most for a quarterback in Super Bowl history. Mahomes finished with zero touchdowns and two interceptions.
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Good quarterbacks don’t produce at the same level behind bad protection, but they do adjust and produce at the best of their ability.
I want to feel “this guy is doing pretty well given the circumstances,” and not “if only the circumstances were different, he might do well.”
But valid point.
But valid point.
I'm just saying, what Mahomes faced in that Superbowl, or those one or two games, Eli Manning, and now Jones, have faced in the majority of their games.
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where you can adapt. KC hit a breaking point with all those replacements and ultimately couldn’t handle a team that was peaking with its edge pressure.
But valid point.
I'm just saying, what Mahomes faced in that Superbowl, or those one or two games, Eli Manning, and now Jones, have faced in the majority of their games.
But then you are really questioning the competence of the guys picking the OL players and coaching them as well.
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In comment 15271089 Jimmy Googs said:
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where you can adapt. KC hit a breaking point with all those replacements and ultimately couldn’t handle a team that was peaking with its edge pressure.
But valid point.
I'm just saying, what Mahomes faced in that Superbowl, or those one or two games, Eli Manning, and now Jones, have faced in the majority of their games.
But then you are really questioning the competence of the guys picking the OL players and coaching them as well.
No, I'm waiting on them to get the right mixture of guys in place, with the right chemistry, and see them gel as a unit.
They think they have it. We'll see if that's true.
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The "put your trust in professionals, they know more than you stupid fans" argument falls apart when it's being towed by the same people who look back critically on Ray Handley, Marc Ross, Jerry Reese, Ben McAdoo, and on and on...those men were also professionals.
I'd agree with that to the extent that we can't predict success. But its irrefutable that they have all the info on the player. Execution is a different and much bigger story than just Jones imo.
Even further, look at McAdoo, imo he correctly ID'd that Eli wouldn't be successful with the combination of ability/talent that was on the roster. He wanted to move forward with Smith/Webb. He made the right call on the player but it didn't lead to wins.
Ultimately, for me, it will the the coming together (or not) of Gettleman's offensive line which will determine whether he was a successful GM in his rebuild.
That's my opinion, and that's always been my opinion.
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In comment 15271093 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 15271089 Jimmy Googs said:
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where you can adapt. KC hit a breaking point with all those replacements and ultimately couldn’t handle a team that was peaking with its edge pressure.
But valid point.
I'm just saying, what Mahomes faced in that Superbowl, or those one or two games, Eli Manning, and now Jones, have faced in the majority of their games.
But then you are really questioning the competence of the guys picking the OL players and coaching them as well.
No, I'm waiting on them to get the right mixture of guys in place, with the right chemistry, and see them gel as a unit.
They think they have it. We'll see if that's true.
Waiting on them to get the right mixture?
So burn thru a HOF QB and a #6 overall pick until the special sauce is found on the OL..quite a strategy to deflect responsibility here. No?
Manning, Jones, etc... It just didn't matter. The team goes as the offensive line goes. At least that's been the story of the past 20 years.
As far as "burning through the #6 overall pick", I would not classify it as being there yet. They are still really trying to build a line for him, and yes, now they are willing to take the field to see if they've built it.
Well like I said, we're waiting to see if they are right.
Their inaction in addressing it this offseason says they are happy with it. If the line sucks again, then that was a big mistake.
As far as "burning through the #6 overall pick", I would not classify it as being there yet. They are still really trying to build a line for him, and yes, now they are willing to take the field to see if they've built it.
Eli was the named starting QB for this existing front office in 2018 and 2019
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"burn through" a HOF QB. That was the prior regime.
As far as "burning through the #6 overall pick", I would not classify it as being there yet. They are still really trying to build a line for him, and yes, now they are willing to take the field to see if they've built it.
Eli was the named starting QB for this existing front office in 2018 and 2019
He was not the future and the entire offensive line unit was replaced completely 8 games into 2018. That's when the churn began.
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they have it fixed. So it better be otherwise more changes to how they do business are needed.
Well like I said, we're waiting to see if they are right.
Their inaction in addressing it this offseason says they are happy with it. If the line sucks again, then that was a big mistake.
Right and changes should be made because. as you say, this is the fatal flaw of the team over its past history.
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In comment 15271108 Britt in VA said:
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"burn through" a HOF QB. That was the prior regime.
As far as "burning through the #6 overall pick", I would not classify it as being there yet. They are still really trying to build a line for him, and yes, now they are willing to take the field to see if they've built it.
Eli was the named starting QB for this existing front office in 2018 and 2019
He was not the future and the entire offensive line unit was replaced completely 8 games into 2018. That's when the churn began.
He was certainly their near future otherwise that was a waste of time to keep paying him.
And the entire OL was not replaced midseason in 2018
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However, the success of the season still falls on Jones. Sure, it could get more challenging if the OL is inconsistent. But Jones is the 6th pick so he needs to figure it out.
It's a heavy burden being an NFL QB, especially a high investment...
Bullcrap.
How can you and terps ignore the OL to the degree you're doing other than a passing sentence on this subject? I'd expect this from the DG homers, but not the both of you. You've even been a heavy advocate for addressing the OL and you were very disappointed it was not addressed - and now it no longer matters or only a passing sentence you remark about it and then blow it off like it doesn't exist?
Saying that "Jones needs to figure it out," is like saying Julius Randle needs to figure out how to outplay all 3 of Durant, Harden, and Irving.
You and Terps know Jones is a pocket passer, don't you? How often will a pocket passer be good if his OL stinks? SO what are you going to do- throw all-time great QB's at me? C'mon if the OL stinks Jones can't be good. He's built for the pocket- not for being "Mahomes."
I have indeed said all offseason that the OL needs further upgrades. And I haven't backed-off that on this thread.
But that doesn't preclude Jones from not having to step up and perform better. Let's say the OL turns out to be good but Jones continues to struggle. Then it's very likely the season will be a failure.
However, if the OL struggles, and this is where I differ compared to most who think QB is just another spoke in the wheel, I still expect Jones to figure it out and find another way to make it work. Yes, Garrett and Judge are in that mix, too. But the bulk of the responsibility will still on Jones to execute. He was drafted to be a force multiplier. It's just that simple. Too many on this board act like he was drafted in the 6th round.
So undoubtedly the season hinges on Jones. Why the hell do you think we've made all of these investments - free agency and the draft - this offseason? To get Jones is a position to execute and score points.
And I know I don't know Jones is a pocket passer. Honestly, I have no idea what the hell he is yet. I do like the way he throws on the run to his right. And I like the way he can move out of the pocket to run. But he decision making prowess thus far in the pocket are below average, IMV, compared to the rest of the NFL QBs.
By mid 2018, the entire starting offensive line had been replaced through benching, injury, or being cut (never to return).
Here is Eric's recap from early 2019:
The Giants started the season with Nate Solder at left tackle, Will Hernandez at left guard, Jon Halapio at center, Patrick Omameh at right guard, and Ereck Flowers at right tackle. This group did not play well and the offense struggled mightily to score points. Indeed, there appeared to be no measurable improvement over the previous pathetic groups. The Giants began the season 1-7, scoring an average of 15 points in six of those losses despite the presence of Odell Beckham and Saquon Barkley.
Injury and an ineffectiveness soon led to shakeups up front. Halapio broke his ankle and leg in the second game of the season and was first replaced by John Greco and then Spencer Pulley, who was claimed off of waivers from the Los Angeles Chargers. The new regime also decided it had seen enough of Flowers and Omameh. Flowers was benched after the second game and replaced by second-year undrafted free agent Chad Wheeler. Omameh lasted a bit longer, starting the first six games before being cut in November. Greco first took his spot, then newcomer Jamon Brown, who was claimed off of waivers from the Los Angeles Rams.
The 2.0 version of the 2018 offensive line thus included Solder-Hernandez-Pulley-Brown-Wheeler. The best thing that could be said of this group was that it wasn’t as crappy as the previous group. Team scoring improved, but Pulley and Wheeler were clearly weak links. Brown looked the part, but demonstrated the same inconsistency that led to him being cut by the Rams. And it rapidly became apparent that the desperate Giants dramatically overpaid Solder, who did settle down more as the season progressed. (Unfortunately, it was the Giants’ failed attempt to land guard Andrew Norwell in free agency that led to the Giants acquiring both Solder and Omameh). While Hernandez experienced the expected rookie growing pains, he improved and was named to the All-Rookie team.
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In comment 15270873 Thegratefulhead said:
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FFS. I have been told all off season the running game and the OL were much better in the second half of the season.
True or not?
Was Thomas a lot better in the second half or more like a bust?
I watched games, I thought Daniel Jones had time in the second half of the year. I expect the Thomas to improve as do I expect, WH, SL, Peart to better. Zeitler will hurt some, but htat wasn't All Pro Zeitler anymore. I think Solder ~ Flemming with potential to be batter. Fulton is decent depth. Gates is in Year 2.
I am flat out saying that is going to have to be good enough and a franchise QB would elevate them. Time to put or shut up. Not asking him to be an All Pro. I am asking that he not suck so bad that we pick top 12. That is a pretty low fucking bar. If he can't get over it, he can GTFO.
If you want to look at 2nd half of the season with Jones - if that is your sole barometer than when you speak of what you saw- you saw Jones go 5-2 in the 7 games he started, right? SO if the OL showed you they could win, then so has Jones.
So if they lose why pin it soley on him? Unless you are giving him ALL THE CREDIT for 5-2? Then are you saying he was terrific at 5-2? If he isn't getting all the credit for 5-2 then why should he get all the blame if they lose?
And why are you assuming WH, SL and Peart to be better when WH showed you that he hasn't gotten better? If all young players get better then why are so many teams that draft so high for many years at the bottom seem to remain at the bottom for long periods of time? All their players didn't get better but the Giants are special and all theirs will? Says who?
And not to mention - but I will how some teams were ravaged by injuries and some teams draft well too- Dallas and Philly were ravaged by injury.
And for example don't you think Dallas thinks Parson blitzing either in the interior or out an edge vs Peart is to their advantage? SO how much does it matter that the bad OL improves a little if Dallas can expose it with a superior talent?
SO why are you looking at ONLY the Giants improving? You are throwing a wild dart implying the Giants OL is going to improve all because YOU SAY SO. What if you're WRONG and that OL stinks?
SO now OL's don't matter in the NFL because YOU SAY SO? Instead what's MORE IMPORTANT is where a player is drafted (Jones at 6) rather than performance from a 5 man-OL?
If that were the case - then using your philosophy why EVER should the Giants draft an OL? Just get 5 Free Agents and then the next year you could claim they will all get better and you'd be able to equally evaluate the QB 6th overall and then claim no more excuses, right?
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In comment 15271047 Britt in VA said:
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at this point.
What if the O-line is playing well, and likewise Jones is playing well. The Giants start 6-2, hypothetically.
Then, Thomas goes down with a season ender. Then another linemen goes down for a season ender or extended time...
Excuse? Or just reality of the situation?
Would suggest that is not an excuse for Jones to start playing badly
The offense would likely not keep up its similar pace but it and Jones shouldn’t just go in the toilet either.
Well, I think that's kind of hard to fathom for me. Especially when we saw such a public display of what it can do to a QB as recently as a few months ago in the Superbowl.
I am completely giving Jones a pass for 2020 so it is clear that I am not unreasonable.
I intend to put Jones on most of my Fantasy teams. I think he is going to have a top 10 year.
That is my opinion.
QB's have to make split second decisions. I thought the OL was good enough in the second half of 2020. Jones had no where to go with the ball. Now, he has excellent options everywhere with plenty of big play potential.
My bar is for the team is to not be bottom third of the league this year. I know it is a team game but the QB has a proportionally greater impact than other player on the field.
I basically want Jones to not suck and I am meeting resistance to that.
HOLY SHIT FUCK BALLS!!!
By mid 2018, the entire starting offensive line had been replaced through benching, injury, or being cut (never to return).
Here is Eric's recap from early 2019:
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So what did Gettleman do? He almost completely gutted the previous group. Justin Pugh (2013 1st rounder), Weston Richburg (2014 2nd rounder), and D.J. Fluker were allowed to walk in free agency. John Jerry was cut before the season started. Somewhat oddly, the only unrestricted free agent the team chose to re-sign was John Greco. Newcomers included Nate Solder (4 years, $62 million), Patrick Omameh (3 years, $15 million), and 2018 2nd-round draft pick Will Hernandez. Notably, Ereck Flowers (9th player taken in the 2015 NFL Draft), who the previous administration had refused to shift to right tackle, was finally moved to the spot that many argued would be his best position. The only real surprise coming out of the OTAs and training camp was that Jon Halapio beat out Brett Jones at center, with the latter eventually being traded to the Minnesota Vikings in late August. The new offensive line coach was Hal Hunter, a man with an uninspiring resume and who was also out of football in 2017.
The Giants started the season with Nate Solder at left tackle, Will Hernandez at left guard, Jon Halapio at center, Patrick Omameh at right guard, and Ereck Flowers at right tackle. This group did not play well and the offense struggled mightily to score points. Indeed, there appeared to be no measurable improvement over the previous pathetic groups. The Giants began the season 1-7, scoring an average of 15 points in six of those losses despite the presence of Odell Beckham and Saquon Barkley.
Injury and an ineffectiveness soon led to shakeups up front. Halapio broke his ankle and leg in the second game of the season and was first replaced by John Greco and then Spencer Pulley, who was claimed off of waivers from the Los Angeles Chargers. The new regime also decided it had seen enough of Flowers and Omameh. Flowers was benched after the second game and replaced by second-year undrafted free agent Chad Wheeler. Omameh lasted a bit longer, starting the first six games before being cut in November. Greco first took his spot, then newcomer Jamon Brown, who was claimed off of waivers from the Los Angeles Rams.
The 2.0 version of the 2018 offensive line thus included Solder-Hernandez-Pulley-Brown-Wheeler. The best thing that could be said of this group was that it wasn’t as crappy as the previous group. Team scoring improved, but Pulley and Wheeler were clearly weak links. Brown looked the part, but demonstrated the same inconsistency that led to him being cut by the Rams. And it rapidly became apparent that the desperate Giants dramatically overpaid Solder, who did settle down more as the season progressed. (Unfortunately, it was the Giants’ failed attempt to land guard Andrew Norwell in free agency that led to the Giants acquiring both Solder and Omameh). While Hernandez experienced the expected rookie growing pains, he improved and was named to the All-Rookie team.
Link - ( New Window )
I know. Thought you were saying the OL that started 2018 were all replaced by mid season which was not the case.
And those new guys back then only became disappointments.
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so they are considered replacements from 2017.
By mid 2018, the entire starting offensive line had been replaced through benching, injury, or being cut (never to return).
Here is Eric's recap from early 2019:
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So what did Gettleman do? He almost completely gutted the previous group. Justin Pugh (2013 1st rounder), Weston Richburg (2014 2nd rounder), and D.J. Fluker were allowed to walk in free agency. John Jerry was cut before the season started. Somewhat oddly, the only unrestricted free agent the team chose to re-sign was John Greco. Newcomers included Nate Solder (4 years, $62 million), Patrick Omameh (3 years, $15 million), and 2018 2nd-round draft pick Will Hernandez. Notably, Ereck Flowers (9th player taken in the 2015 NFL Draft), who the previous administration had refused to shift to right tackle, was finally moved to the spot that many argued would be his best position. The only real surprise coming out of the OTAs and training camp was that Jon Halapio beat out Brett Jones at center, with the latter eventually being traded to the Minnesota Vikings in late August. The new offensive line coach was Hal Hunter, a man with an uninspiring resume and who was also out of football in 2017.
The Giants started the season with Nate Solder at left tackle, Will Hernandez at left guard, Jon Halapio at center, Patrick Omameh at right guard, and Ereck Flowers at right tackle. This group did not play well and the offense struggled mightily to score points. Indeed, there appeared to be no measurable improvement over the previous pathetic groups. The Giants began the season 1-7, scoring an average of 15 points in six of those losses despite the presence of Odell Beckham and Saquon Barkley.
Injury and an ineffectiveness soon led to shakeups up front. Halapio broke his ankle and leg in the second game of the season and was first replaced by John Greco and then Spencer Pulley, who was claimed off of waivers from the Los Angeles Chargers. The new regime also decided it had seen enough of Flowers and Omameh. Flowers was benched after the second game and replaced by second-year undrafted free agent Chad Wheeler. Omameh lasted a bit longer, starting the first six games before being cut in November. Greco first took his spot, then newcomer Jamon Brown, who was claimed off of waivers from the Los Angeles Rams.
The 2.0 version of the 2018 offensive line thus included Solder-Hernandez-Pulley-Brown-Wheeler. The best thing that could be said of this group was that it wasn’t as crappy as the previous group. Team scoring improved, but Pulley and Wheeler were clearly weak links. Brown looked the part, but demonstrated the same inconsistency that led to him being cut by the Rams. And it rapidly became apparent that the desperate Giants dramatically overpaid Solder, who did settle down more as the season progressed. (Unfortunately, it was the Giants’ failed attempt to land guard Andrew Norwell in free agency that led to the Giants acquiring both Solder and Omameh). While Hernandez experienced the expected rookie growing pains, he improved and was named to the All-Rookie team.
Link - ( New Window )
I know. Thought you were saying the OL that started 2018 were all replaced by mid season which was not the case.
And those new guys back then only became disappointments.
My point was they were churning out and moving on by mid 2018 and that continued in to 2019 and 2020. This is the first offseason that they haven't continued that churn.
That indicates to me that they think they have the right group. Hence me saying that now it's time to wait and see if they are right about the unit they have built.
It was one game that they had no time for replacementS. I find the "KC Superbowl" argument to be weak.
my opinion.
The KC example is beyond weak. It is daft.
KC had two weeks after the AFC championship game to patch together a revised OL after both tackles were declared out. There was just no way to expect that unit to be ready to deal with top tiered pass rushers like Barrett, Paul, etc.
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It was one game that they had no time for replacementS. I find the "KC Superbowl" argument to be weak.
my opinion.
The KC example is beyond weak. It is daft.
KC had two weeks after the AFC championship game to patch together a revised OL after both tackles were declared out. There was just no way to expect that unit to be ready to deal with top tiered pass rushers like Barrett, Paul, etc.
Then we need to put to bed the notion that great QB's don't need an offensive line to be successful and stop calling it excuses.
You think Jones hasn't played with a line the caliber that Mahomes was burdened with against Tampa in the Superbowl? Eli Manning played with Ereck Flowers as his starting left tackle for three seasons.
These two guys have played with some rotational sh-t. Mahomes has not faced that adversity along the o-line. When he did, he didn't just have a bad game, he has the WORST game of his career by far.
It matters. So stop saying it doesn't if you don't like it when people point it out.
The chances there are other change ups this season...would suggest around 100%
Jones got sacked 45 times in 2020 in only 14 games.
Mahomes?
2018: 26
2019: 17
2020: 22
IT MATTERS.
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In comment 15270801 bw in dc said:
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I have indeed said all offseason that the OL needs further upgrades. And I haven't backed-off that on this thread.
But that doesn't preclude Jones from not having to step up and perform better. Let's say the OL turns out to be good but Jones continues to struggle. Then it's very likely the season will be a failure.
However, if the OL struggles, and this is where I differ compared to most who think QB is just another spoke in the wheel, I still expect Jones to figure it out and find another way to make it work. Yes, Garrett and Judge are in that mix, too. But the bulk of the responsibility will still on Jones to execute. He was drafted to be a force multiplier. It's just that simple. Too many on this board act like he was drafted in the 6th round.
So undoubtedly the season hinges on Jones. Why the hell do you think we've made all of these investments - free agency and the draft - this offseason? To get Jones is a position to execute and score points.
And I know I don't know Jones is a pocket passer. Honestly, I have no idea what the hell he is yet. I do like the way he throws on the run to his right. And I like the way he can move out of the pocket to run. But he decision making prowess thus far in the pocket are below average, IMV, compared to the rest of the NFL QBs.
If you think Jones is a good passer on the run then you're out of your mind. You will agree with me that if if if he stinks throwing on the move and he is a pocket passer then he can't be evaluated properly with a decent OL (I'm not even saying "good" - just "decent.").
You claim on your 1st sentence to me that the Giants needed upgrades to the OL. Why did they need upgrades in your opinion (I agree they did)? What's the purpose in your opinion?
And please explain the upgrades they have made to fill that purpose.
And you and I have been very critical of DG. Now you are coming back at me - asking me to justify his moves? Why would you even ask this absurd question to me if we both think he has been doing an overall lousy job up until this past year?
If you are NOT sold on Jones- then you don't think DG has been a crappy GM? If you think he has been a bad GM then how can you even pretend to ask me a question about justifying his moves?
And as evidenced in the Superbowl, it wasn't Mahomes "elevating" his offensive line.
It isn't just Mahomes. We've seen most QB's struggle with a poor OL. Sometimes those QB's aren't very good. Sometimes they are pretty good and succeed when the OL is better.
Daniel Jones will be the QB here this season. Even if this ends up being the daily thread people use to fire up the bullhorn
Jones got sacked 45 times in 2020 in only 14 games.
Mahomes?
2018: 26
2019: 17
2020: 22
IT MATTERS.
So how do the Giants not invest more in OL this past offseason?
How can confidence be given in the guys choosing Eli to start and then Jones if they are the same ones thinking the OL is sufficient. and every year they are wrong?
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I
I basically want Jones to not suck and I am meeting resistance to that.
HOLY SHIT FUCK BALLS!!!
It's not that you are meeting resistance to that - it's that you refuse to acknowledge that other people might be right that the OL might stink.
For some reason you are burying your head in the sand that the OL is incapable of being bad. As a result you must feel dug in and are arguing for argument sake.
Read Eric's original post again. He is essentially saying the OL has bene a problem. And fi it is - you seem to want to ignore it. You seem to think the OL is fine. But what if you are wrong?
If you are right about the OL- then yes - it's on Jones. But eric is specifically mentioning the OL was a problem and he says IF IF IF it remains. That;s different than what you are saying ie assuming the OL will be good etc.
I think it’s a huge risk. It’s Judges first gamble.
It isn't just Mahomes. We've seen most QB's struggle with a poor OL. Sometimes those QB's aren't very good. Sometimes they are pretty good and succeed when the OL is better.
Daniel Jones will be the QB here this season. Even if this ends up being the daily thread people use to fire up the bullhorn
The OL should not continue to be an afterthought. I think we saw more positives from Jones to think he can be a winning QB than we did from the OL to think they can be part of a winning offense/team. I liked the Thomas pick last year, even if he wasn't my first choice for OT. I still think he is a good player and expect him to get better. Last year, I thought both Lemieux and Peart were steals in the draft. They still may be. But, the blind faith in them and Hernandez (3/5 of the OL) is what I find troubling. What evidence is there that all 3 individually or combined will improve significantly enough? That is not to say they can't or won't. But, that seems to be plan a, b, and c.
And as evidenced in the Superbowl, it wasn't Mahomes "elevating" his offensive line.
Mahomes was a few weeks removed from a concussion, and once Tampa got to him, he looked a little shaky. Definitely a contributing factor that can’t be dismissed.
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In comment 15271004 giantstock said:
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In comment 15270801 bw in dc said:
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I have indeed said all offseason that the OL needs further upgrades. And I haven't backed-off that on this thread.
But that doesn't preclude Jones from not having to step up and perform better. Let's say the OL turns out to be good but Jones continues to struggle. Then it's very likely the season will be a failure.
However, if the OL struggles, and this is where I differ compared to most who think QB is just another spoke in the wheel, I still expect Jones to figure it out and find another way to make it work. Yes, Garrett and Judge are in that mix, too. But the bulk of the responsibility will still on Jones to execute. He was drafted to be a force multiplier. It's just that simple. Too many on this board act like he was drafted in the 6th round.
So undoubtedly the season hinges on Jones. Why the hell do you think we've made all of these investments - free agency and the draft - this offseason? To get Jones is a position to execute and score points.
And I know I don't know Jones is a pocket passer. Honestly, I have no idea what the hell he is yet. I do like the way he throws on the run to his right. And I like the way he can move out of the pocket to run. But he decision making prowess thus far in the pocket are below average, IMV, compared to the rest of the NFL QBs.
If you think Jones is a good passer on the run then you're out of your mind. You will agree with me that if if if he stinks throwing on the move and he is a pocket passer then he can't be evaluated properly with a decent OL (I'm not even saying "good" - just "decent.").
You claim on your 1st sentence to me that the Giants needed upgrades to the OL. Why did they need upgrades in your opinion (I agree they did)? What's the purpose in your opinion?
And please explain the upgrades they have made to fill that purpose.
And you and I have been very critical of DG. Now you are coming back at me - asking me to justify his moves? Why would you even ask this absurd question to me if we both think he has been doing an overall lousy job up until this past year?
If you are NOT sold on Jones- then you don't think DG has been a crappy GM? If you think he has been a bad GM then how can you even pretend to ask me a question about justifying his moves?
I MEANT TO PUT THIS AS A QUESTION
You will agree with me that if if if he stinks throwing on the move and he is a pocket passer then he can't be evaluated properly with a decent OL (I'm not even saying "good" - just "decent.")?
It was one game that they had no time for replacementS. I find the "KC Superbowl" argument to be weak.
HOLY SHIT FUCK BALLS!!!
I like the KC-SB example for the purpose of comparing what a QB(a good one)can and cannot do with a porous line.
I don't think that the comparison holds water if the argument made is "why didn't KC properly address the issue."
If that were the argument, I agree with the assessment that it would be a weak argument.
It’s almost as if they are planning to work around or disguise the issues on the OL. Judge gets coach of the year if he pulls it off...
If you think Jones is a good passer on the run then you're out of your mind. You will agree with me that if if if he stinks throwing on the move and he is a pocket passer then he can't be evaluated properly with a decent OL (I'm not even saying "good" - just "decent.").
You claim on your 1st sentence to me that the Giants needed upgrades to the OL. Why did they need upgrades in your opinion (I agree they did)? What's the purpose in your opinion?
And please explain the upgrades they have made to fill that purpose.
And you and I have been very critical of DG. Now you are coming back at me - asking me to justify his moves? Why would you even ask this absurd question to me if we both think he has been doing an overall lousy job up until this past year?
If you are NOT sold on Jones- then you don't think DG has been a crappy GM? If you think he has been a bad GM then how can you even pretend to ask me a question about justifying his moves?
I said I like the way Jones throws on the run. And going to his right, I think he's effective. Is he on the level of Mahomes or Rodgers on the run? Of course not. But looking at his skill set after two years, I think Jones looks better as a QB on the move versus a stationary QB in the pocket going through progressions.
Do I think that has to improve considerably in the pocket? Yes. Which is why I have raised the idea of improving the OL. But that doesn't mean I can't also expect Jones to display more ability to lift the play of the players around him.
My assessment of the OL was this at the end of the year - Thomas may actually be competent at LT and Gates popped out of nowhere. But both G spots and the RT were still major question marks (and, frankly, who the hell knows if Gates might only be a one hit wonder). So if we could improve at least two of those three, through free agency and maybe the draft, I think the offense would be on better footing moving into '21. And I understand that the Judge/Gettleman obviously feel differently, but I don't know what either has done to earn the fans' trust in that area. Judge failed on his two OL coaches and Gettleman's kryptonite has been solving the OL dilemma.
I was being rhetorical with my observation/question about the offseason spend/investments on the offensive side of the ball. It seems as clear as vodka to me that a key mission this offseason was to provide more playmakers for Jones. That seems without dispute...
I'm not looking to turn this into another Gettleman job review, btw. This is about Jones stepping up and performing like a high pick and producing more points.
Jones is a huge key but so is Williams. And Lawrence. And Bradbury. Thomas. They are all important. It's quite possible that this team goes as far as Thomas and Peart take them.
But it's the QB. And worse, it's a NY Giants QB. All rational discussion goes out the window. I've seen this movie before.
2018--the rallying cry around here. Look deeper.
It’s almost as if they are planning to work around or disguise the issues on the OL. Judge gets coach of the year if he pulls it off...
Or maybe an OL comprised of all 2nd and 3rd year players might be about to hit its peak. What an insane concept.
I think it’s a huge risk. It’s Judges first gamble.
I'm not sure it's much of a gamble for Judge. He isn't going anywhere and he knows it. He might be thinking he's a year away from really running the football operation.
The potential for competing agendas to impact decision making processes is all over the place.
Poor play design and play calling
Horrible OL
subpar WRs
Lost the starting RB in both seasons
TE who drops the ball and who has accounted for half of his INT's
Has not gone into a training camp as the starter yet and in fact only had I think 14 practices before the first game of last season.
Why is it all on Jones here?
The potential for competing agendas to impact decision making processes is all over the place.
Let me re-phrase — I agree it’s not a gamble for him per se, it’s a gamble on the field.
He’s not going anywhere, and if it fails he’s got plenty of cover.
For the here and now on the field, leaving the right side of the line on some combination of Fulton, Solder, Peart, and Hernandez is a gamble.
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without some pretty big fall outs in people’s careers.
It’s almost as if they are planning to work around or disguise the issues on the OL. Judge gets coach of the year if he pulls it off...
Or maybe an OL comprised of all 2nd and 3rd year players might be about to hit its peak. What an insane concept.
Everybody should have been peaking...that’s what you want to bring into your year-end performance evaluation meeting with?
Save time and update your resume now...
Then we need to put to bed the notion that great QB's don't need an offensive line to be successful and stop calling it excuses.
You think Jones hasn't played with a line the caliber that Mahomes was burdened with against Tampa in the Superbowl? Eli Manning played with Ereck Flowers as his starting left tackle for three seasons.
These two guys have played with some rotational sh-t. Mahomes has not faced that adversity along the o-line. When he did, he didn't just have a bad game, he has the WORST game of his career by far.
It matters. So stop saying it doesn't if you don't like it when people point it out.
You're distorting the point. No one has ever suggested a QB doesn't need a functioning OL. It's just that top QBs don't need a Berlin Wall to optimize their ability to create points.
Furthermore, those two weeks leading into the SB for KC were a mess on multiple levels. Thy lost both Ts, it was revealed Reid's kid had nearly killed a kid while drinking and driving, Reid obviously wasn't focused with his game-planning, etc. Thus, I have little doubt that Mahomes and Reid could have found a solution to play better if the circumstances were different.
So using that situation to support you point simply doesn't apply...
Let me re-phrase — I agree it’s not a gamble for him per se, it’s a gamble on the field.
He’s not going anywhere, and if it fails he’s got plenty of cover.
For the here and now on the field, leaving the right side of the line on some combination of Fulton, Solder, Peart, and Hernandez is a gamble.
And agree. There is a TON of inexperience and unknowns with this OL. So it's absolutely a gamble.
Less of a gamble, for example, would be bringing in new OLs through free agency who actually had proven to be competent in NFL games...
This pay off for Judge when the dust settles. But it's a gamble. And a big one...
Yeah I don’t get it. Judge secretly hoping the OL stinks so he can take full power? Sounds like a Game of Thrones storyline.
Optimistic about D. Jones, The O.L., the Defense the
Running Game, the WRs and the Coaching Staff.
Maybe no Superbowl this year, but soon, Baby, soon!
P.S.: I don't read or listen to the Sports Media.
They are mostly full of it with a Capital S.
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that there is any other agenda other than winning for a NFL coach highlights the absurdity that these threads bring out.
Yeah I don’t get it. Judge secretly hoping the OL stinks so he can take full power? Sounds like a Game of Thrones storyline.
That's a bit simplistic. I was thinking more along the lines of Judge being in a can't lose position: if the current setup works, great. If not, he's going to get to do it his way a year from now with his OC, a quarterback he picks, and an OL he continues to build.
I view the coaches and front office as two groups: the people that were there before January 2020, and the people that got there after January 2020. The people in the first group aren't as secure as the people in the second.
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In comment 15271080 Britt in VA said:
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I
I basically want Jones to not suck and I am meeting resistance to that.
HOLY SHIT FUCK BALLS!!!
It's not that you are meeting resistance to that - it's that you refuse to acknowledge that other people might be right that the OL might stink.
For some reason you are burying your head in the sand that the OL is incapable of being bad. As a result you must feel dug in and are arguing for argument sake.
Read Eric's original post again. He is essentially saying the OL has bene a problem. And fi it is - you seem to want to ignore it. You seem to think the OL is fine. But what if you are wrong?
If you are right about the OL- then yes - it's on Jones. But eric is specifically mentioning the OL was a problem and he says IF IF IF it remains. That;s different than what you are saying ie assuming the OL will be good etc.
Britt...fuck everybody else, because you are reasonable. Do you think the OL was decent in the second half of the year, after Columbo left and Thomas started performing not like a windmill in quicksand?
Because I thought it did. We won games, the running with retreads were respectable and productive and I thought the protection decent but Jones still looked indecisive.
Meaning, Jones had ... time but no where to go with the ball?
Am I the only one that saw that?
I have never been a person to ignore reality.
When I say no excuses, I mean reasonably no excuses. I don't feel like I have to include a statement warning:
Attention BBI posters, when I say "no excuses" I mean that as a reasonable person. Of course if the OL regresses and looks like a fucking hot mess it will change my position on excuses.
Let me post like I care about wadded panties.
Example:
In the year 2021 while playing quarterback for the New York Giants during regular season games I intend to hold Jones accountable for playing the position at a middle of the league level as long as the roster is not riddled with injuries at an above league average level or a single unit is not decimated.
This expectation comes with the caveat that young players should reasonably expected to on average grow as players. Some young players may regress but others will make a jump and on balance we will expect them to perform at or near the level as they performed the the last 8 games of the previous season.
Instead, couldn't I just say Jones needs to not suck in 2021 based on the talent currently on the team without controversy?
FFS this place gets uptight sometimes.
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In comment 15271132 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15271080 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I
I basically want Jones to not suck and I am meeting resistance to that.
HOLY SHIT FUCK BALLS!!!
It's not that you are meeting resistance to that - it's that you refuse to acknowledge that other people might be right that the OL might stink.
For some reason you are burying your head in the sand that the OL is incapable of being bad. As a result you must feel dug in and are arguing for argument sake.
Read Eric's original post again. He is essentially saying the OL has bene a problem. And fi it is - you seem to want to ignore it. You seem to think the OL is fine. But what if you are wrong?
If you are right about the OL- then yes - it's on Jones. But eric is specifically mentioning the OL was a problem and he says IF IF IF it remains. That;s different than what you are saying ie assuming the OL will be good etc.
Britt...fuck everybody else, because you are reasonable. Do you think the OL was decent in the second half of the year, after Columbo left and Thomas started performing not like a windmill in quicksand?
Because I thought it did. We won games, the running with retreads were respectable and productive and I thought the protection decent but Jones still looked indecisive.
Meaning, Jones had ... time but no where to go with the ball?
Am I the only one that saw that?
I have never been a person to ignore reality.
When I say no excuses, I mean reasonably no excuses. I don't feel like I have to include a statement warning:
Attention BBI posters, when I say "no excuses" I mean that as a reasonable person. Of course if the OL regresses and looks like a fucking hot mess it will change my position on excuses.
Let me post like I care about wadded panties.
Example:
In the year 2021 while playing quarterback for the New York Giants during regular season games I intend to hold Jones accountable for playing the position at a middle of the league level as long as the roster is not riddled with injuries at an above league average level or a single unit is not decimated.
This expectation comes with the caveat that young players should reasonably expected to on average grow as players. Some young players may regress but others will make a jump and on balance we will expect them to perform at or near the level as they performed the the last 8 games of the previous season.
Instead, couldn't I just say Jones needs to not suck in 2021 based on the talent currently on the team without controversy?
FFS this place gets uptight sometimes.
I did, and apparently they (the Giants) did too, hence their gamble to let it ride.
As I’ve said multiple times on this thread, now we wait and see if they (and what we think we saw) were right.
If the offensive line is average and can hold up for 17 games, I think you see a vastly improved offense and therefore a vastly improved Jones. If it doesn’t hold up and we have a season resembling the last two or three, all bets are off.
I think an average NFL QB could win our division(not run away with it IE 11-6) with the talent on this team and the man coaching it.
Yes, including our OL.
Is that crazy or unreasonable to believe?
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In comment 15271170 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 15271132 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15271080 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I
I basically want Jones to not suck and I am meeting resistance to that.
HOLY SHIT FUCK BALLS!!!
It's not that you are meeting resistance to that - it's that you refuse to acknowledge that other people might be right that the OL might stink.
For some reason you are burying your head in the sand that the OL is incapable of being bad. As a result you must feel dug in and are arguing for argument sake.
Read Eric's original post again. He is essentially saying the OL has bene a problem. And fi it is - you seem to want to ignore it. You seem to think the OL is fine. But what if you are wrong?
If you are right about the OL- then yes - it's on Jones. But eric is specifically mentioning the OL was a problem and he says IF IF IF it remains. That;s different than what you are saying ie assuming the OL will be good etc.
Britt...fuck everybody else, because you are reasonable. Do you think the OL was decent in the second half of the year, after Columbo left and Thomas started performing not like a windmill in quicksand?
Because I thought it did. We won games, the running with retreads were respectable and productive and I thought the protection decent but Jones still looked indecisive.
Meaning, Jones had ... time but no where to go with the ball?
Am I the only one that saw that?
I have never been a person to ignore reality.
When I say no excuses, I mean reasonably no excuses. I don't feel like I have to include a statement warning:
Attention BBI posters, when I say "no excuses" I mean that as a reasonable person. Of course if the OL regresses and looks like a fucking hot mess it will change my position on excuses.
Let me post like I care about wadded panties.
Example:
In the year 2021 while playing quarterback for the New York Giants during regular season games I intend to hold Jones accountable for playing the position at a middle of the league level as long as the roster is not riddled with injuries at an above league average level or a single unit is not decimated.
This expectation comes with the caveat that young players should reasonably expected to on average grow as players. Some young players may regress but others will make a jump and on balance we will expect them to perform at or near the level as they performed the the last 8 games of the previous season.
Instead, couldn't I just say Jones needs to not suck in 2021 based on the talent currently on the team without controversy?
FFS this place gets uptight sometimes.
I did, and apparently they (the Giants) did too, hence their gamble to let it ride.
As I’ve said multiple times on this thread, now we wait and see if they (and what we think we saw) were right.
If the offensive line is average and can hold up for 17 games, I think you see a vastly improved offense and therefore a vastly improved Jones. If it doesn’t hold up and we have a season resembling the last two or three, all bets are off.
Quote:
If you think Jones is a good passer on the run then you're out of your mind. You will agree with me that if if if he stinks throwing on the move and he is a pocket passer then he can't be evaluated properly with a decent OL (I'm not even saying "good" - just "decent.").
You claim on your 1st sentence to me that the Giants needed upgrades to the OL. Why did they need upgrades in your opinion (I agree they did)? What's the purpose in your opinion?
And please explain the upgrades they have made to fill that purpose.
And you and I have been very critical of DG. Now you are coming back at me - asking me to justify his moves? Why would you even ask this absurd question to me if we both think he has been doing an overall lousy job up until this past year?
If you are NOT sold on Jones- then you don't think DG has been a crappy GM? If you think he has been a bad GM then how can you even pretend to ask me a question about justifying his moves?
I said I like the way Jones throws on the run. And going to his right, I think he's effective. Is he on the level of Mahomes or Rodgers on the run? Of course not. But looking at his skill set after two years, I think Jones looks better as a QB on the move versus a stationary QB in the pocket going through progressions.
Do I think that has to improve considerably in the pocket? Yes. Which is why I have raised the idea of improving the OL. But that doesn't mean I can't also expect Jones to display more ability to lift the play of the players around him.
My assessment of the OL was this at the end of the year - Thomas may actually be competent at LT and Gates popped out of nowhere. But both G spots and the RT were still major question marks (and, frankly, who the hell knows if Gates might only be a one hit wonder). So if we could improve at least two of those three, through free agency and maybe the draft, I think the offense would be on better footing moving into '21. And I understand that the Judge/Gettleman obviously feel differently, but I don't know what either has done to earn the fans' trust in that area. Judge failed on his two OL coaches and Gettleman's kryptonite has been solving the OL dilemma.
I was being rhetorical with my observation/question about the offseason spend/investments on the offensive side of the ball. It seems as clear as vodka to me that a key mission this offseason was to provide more playmakers for Jones. That seems without dispute...
I'm not looking to turn this into another Gettleman job review, btw. This is about Jones stepping up and performing like a high pick and producing more points.
But we didn't improve the OL. They didn't make the upgrades did they? So if they didn't do the changes you suggested - your statement of needing an OL - then was basically meaningless then, right?
Because if it all comes down to Jones - and they didn't do what you thought they should have in order to help him- it was and still remains a meaningless comment from you, right?
I say this flippantly - not in anger- --- They did shit to give Jones the help that YOU thought they should and you don't give a fuck if they did give him OL help or not; it's because it's all on Jones regardless of your OL suggestions for help, right?
Re: some of the other stuff...
...the OLine was addressed in 2020. FFS allow the new players to play.
Whatever it is that we think that we know about the OLine, the QB or anything else, we don't know what those that seem to be content sticking with things as they are, do.
Re: some of the other stuff...
...the OLine was addressed in 2020. FFS allow the new players to play.
Whatever it is that we think that we know about the OLine, the QB or anything else, we don't know what those that seem to be content sticking with things as they are, do.
So the lack of drafting does not mean they are satisfied with the OL.
I’m in favor of looking into a trade during training camp. I bet they can get their hands on a reasonable interior OL if they can keep their ear to the ground and their antennae up.
It's just not feasible for any QB in the NFL to have completely ideal circumstances for success - for the majority of teams there's always going to be some deficiency some where else in the offense, and the offensive line is a very common place where that deficiency lies. There may be only 3 or 4 teams in the league right now I would describe as having a strong OLine.
And frankly, the stress over how the OLine will perform feels a lot like people preemptively trying to make an excuse for how Jones may perform this year. We had a lot of that going on here during Eli's final years and it was pretty tiresome to hear. In today's NFL it's almost a necessity to have a QB that can compensate for bad play on the OLine.
But the bottom line is that reasonable fans should be able to judge how much of Jones' performance is affected by poor protection. And it's a rational assessment to say that the Giants have done enough in the offseason to make this a legitimately competitive team. If the OLine turns out to be THAT bad this year, then at the end of the day no one is going to hang that on Jones if he shows improvement.
It assumes the OL won't improve without adding other players.
That's unanswerable right now, but the prevaling opinion among many on this thread is that the 2021 OL will be the 2020 version because there's no significant personnel changes.
2. The team has upgraded the weapons immensely just by adding Barkley back, let alone Golladay, Toney, Rudolph
3. OL has a top 5 LT and investments via the draft
4. Team didn't appear to reach in the draft in the top 4 rounds
5. Other than the Tomlinson loss, could argue the defense is actually better on paper with the additions at CB and Edge
5. Good draft capital for 2022 and beyond
So yeah, Jones absolutely needs to take the leap and play awesome this year. But even if he struggles a bit, and he likely will, team should still be good enough to win when he isn't at his best.
If we are being honest with ourselves, they should win this division. If they don't, and miss the playoffs again, they likely will have a good chance to draft a QB if they want.
If you want to invest in the draft along the OL, you have to be a little patient to see how it plays out. You can't have it both ways.
This OL is completely different in terms of the actual players from 2018-2019 to now. Give it a bit of time for these guys to play together over a season or two.
It assumes the OL won't improve without adding other players.
Who is saying the OL can't improve? The point I am making - and a few others - is that the OL is the biggest gamble going into '21 because of what we don't know. Because it's pretty indisputable this unit is short on production and experience.
Had we added, instead, proven/better players via free agency, why wouldn't it be a safe assumption that the OL would therefore be better in '21?
As far as the OL
1-- Eric is questioning.
2-- Sy has questioned the interior.
3-- Bill Polian has questioned it.
we've even had well-respected poster jonc speak of the OL being a concern.
There's big money in Giants overunder at 7 wins which means there are a lot of people that think the Giants are no damn good. They could be all wet but it is possible they aren't. It's not like this is an opinion from left field. It's a legit question.
How about keeping an open mind instead of cheerleading that it's not possible that this OL is going to stink?
It's just not feasible for any QB in the NFL to have completely ideal circumstances for success - for the majority of teams there's always going to be some deficiency some where else in the offense, and the offensive line is a very common place where that deficiency lies. There may be only 3 or 4 teams in the league right now I would describe as having a strong OLine.
Exactly. Those are two situations that be addressed simultaneously - the OL could use upgrades, but it's still up to Jones to be much better than he is.
And it's completely reasonable to expect Jones to have the skills to make the OL better because he wasn't drafted to be just another spoke in the wheel.
It's funny - it seems nearly everyone expected Barkley to be great and light it up right way. To be a "gold jacket" player.
But for Jones, who was picked only a few slots later than SB, the expectations are almost opposite. Like he's a newborn - "Hey, Danny took his first step!"..."Hey, Danny said his first words!"..."Hey, Danny knows how to pee without the diapers!"..."Hey, Danny count to ten!"...
Had we added, instead, proven/better players via free agency, why wouldn't it be a safe assumption that the OL would therefore be better in '21?
We all know no one said it. It’s just this guy being this guy.
The slot that he was chosen only matters to those who are spending money and draft geeks.
If the coach believes in a player he couldn’t give two shits whether he was taken at 6 or 60.
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that they didn't "improve" the OL has one significant logic error.
It assumes the OL won't improve without adding other players.
Who is saying the OL can't improve? The point I am making - and a few others - is that the OL is the biggest gamble going into '21 because of what we don't know. Because it's pretty indisputable this unit is short on production and experience.
Had we added, instead, proven/better players via free agency, why wouldn't it be a safe assumption that the OL would therefore be better in '21?
Yeah, not sure what the point of that was. In fact, the main logic behind any improvement is it actually has to come from the existing unit which has been suggested and/or inferred by several already.
Again, if Judge can make it come together with largely same unit year over year then hats off to him on developing his OL players. It will have been something new that this organization has not seen in a long time...
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It's funny - it seems nearly everyone expected Barkley to be great and light it up right way. To be a "gold jacket" player.
It's funny that you're exaggerating that Barkley was a good pick when in fact I wonder if you were one just like me that desised the pick.
In fact there were many, many that knew that it was a bid pick.
You didn't feel that it was a bad pick? In 3 years has he performed like a golden jacket? I don't see him getting the same criticism and he was number 2.
We've heard for how many years the comment the mots important ability is availability.
Some of you have imo going extreme with your hate for Jones. Really weird.
So the lack of drafting does not mean they are satisfied with the OL.
I’m in favor of looking into a trade during training camp. I bet they can get their hands on a reasonable interior OL if they can keep their ear to the ground and their antennae up.
Going thru an entire free agent period and draft and only adding Fulton as a potential replacement at Guard for loss of Zeitler absolutely means they are satisfied with the OL. Especially when they traded down twice, skipping over OL prospects, and added picks largely just for next year in the process.
How can you conclude otherwise?
How about quite probable?
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First two rounds but didn’t because of how things fell out.
So the lack of drafting does not mean they are satisfied with the OL.
I’m in favor of looking into a trade during training camp. I bet they can get their hands on a reasonable interior OL if they can keep their ear to the ground and their antennae up.
Going thru an entire free agent period and draft and only adding Fulton as a potential replacement at Guard for loss of Zeitler absolutely means they are satisfied with the OL. Especially when they traded down twice, skipping over OL prospects, and added picks largely just for next year in the process.
How can you conclude otherwise?
Does this mean they are also satisfied with the QB?
This OL needs to develop together. Blowing it up every offseason isn't going to get us there
I agree, it’s bizarre. The whole “excuses” thing is so weird to me, its like Jones gets called to the principals office and has a list of things he’s blaming other people for.
“No more excuses” is really just a neat way to describe players that need to play better and there’s a whole lot of them in the NFL.
Can you provide anything that suggests that the Giants organization is not satisfied with Jones?
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The OL unit has 5 starters and a swing tackle that likely gets snaps. The QB unit has one starter.
Can you provide anything that suggests that the Giants organization is not satisfied with Jones?
Nothing pressing. Why?
I’m just glad there’s officially no more excuses.
That's simply not true. During his rookie season, with a gimpy Barkley, a terrible OL, and questionable receiving targets, Jones threw 24 touchdowns in 12 starts with just 12 interceptions. If it weren't for the fumbles, his rookie season would be considered stellar.
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Jones has sucked for the first two years of his career. He needs to not suck in year 3 or there won't be a year 4.
That's simply not true. During his rookie season, with a gimpy Barkley, a terrible OL, and questionable receiving targets, Jones threw 24 touchdowns in 12 starts with just 12 interceptions. If it weren't for the fumbles, his rookie season would be considered stellar.
So after a crappy 2017 and a crappy year one under Getts in 2018, how was the offense left to function in 2019 with one competent RB, a terrible OL and questionable receiving targets?
Or in a different light...if Jones was able to be stellar in 2019 (outside of the fumbling) then he must have at least had a decent running game, OL and receivers...right? Or did he do it himself?
And the OL has been good?
1-- I'll reiterate - I'm with Eric on this thread.
2-- I'm with SY when he spoke of having a huge concern about the interior OL and he stated he would've drafted Slater.
3-- You can google Bill Polian's comments on March 30th that he says the key for the Giants is the Giants OL.
4-- I'm with the poster JonC when he mentions one of the huge questions is the OL.
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Jones has sucked for the first two years of his career. He needs to not suck in year 3 or there won't be a year 4.
That's simply not true. During his rookie season, with a gimpy Barkley, a terrible OL, and questionable receiving targets, Jones threw 24 touchdowns in 12 starts with just 12 interceptions. If it weren't for the fumbles, his rookie season would be considered stellar.
Well he did have the fumbles. And he did only play well in four games that year. And he hasn't beaten a team with a winning record in two years. And he has an 8-18 record as a starter.
If we had some journeyman vet these past two years putting up these performances there wouldn't be a question of a third year. He'd be out on his ass.
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Jones has sucked for the first two years of his career. He needs to not suck in year 3 or there won't be a year 4.
I’m just glad there’s officially no more excuses.
I'm expecting more excuses after next season. Then I expect the excuses to go away when the Giants draft another quarterback, at which point everyone will slowly start claiming they saw all along that Jones couldn't play.
I'm expecting more excuses after next season. Then I expect the excuses to go away when the Giants draft another quarterback, at which point everyone will slowly start claiming they saw all along that Jones couldn't play.
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In comment 15271472 Go Terps said:
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Jones has sucked for the first two years of his career. He needs to not suck in year 3 or there won't be a year 4.
I’m just glad there’s officially no more excuses.
I'm expecting more excuses after next season. Then I expect the excuses to go away when the Giants draft another quarterback, at which point everyone will slowly start claiming they saw all along that Jones couldn't play.
In this scenario the excuses wouldn’t go away, they’d reset to whoever the new QB is. And then we’d be doing this all over again, it’s going to be fun!
I'd call it your daily shit on Jones post.
He absolutely didn't suck as a rookie, no matter how many times you post it over and over again.
The team in January had needs at almost every position. They prioritized WR in free agency and then actively traded down whenever they could in the draft.
Your position is, well, how could so many situations always lead to an OL NOT being taken? It’s a fair point, but my response is: well, actually, there were only a few situations where they chose no OL, so it could very well be chance that resulted in no OL being acquired. With the rumors and DG’s press conference statement, my conclusion is that none of this indicates complete satisfaction with the OL.
Peart only played 15% of 2020 offensive snaps.
Hernandez has never played a pro snap at RG.
One way or the other, for better or worse, the 2021 NYG OL is going to be substantially different from the 2020 version.
I think Judge feels there is some talent with this group. It needs better coaching (hopefully Sale) and time working together. We don't need a great wall on pass plays. We need a offense that is balanced, stays in good down and distance and cuts way down on the 0 or negative runs and jail breaks on pass plays. Many factors have a impact in OL's production. Barkley, Galloday, Rudolph and Toney will help the OL tremendously imv.
I think Judge feels there is some talent with this group. It needs better coaching (hopefully Sale) and time working together. We don't need a great wall on pass plays. We need a offense that is balanced, stays in good down and distance and cuts way down on the 0 or negative runs and jail breaks on pass plays. Many factors have a impact in OL's production. Barkley, Galloday, Rudolph and Toney will help the OL tremendously imv.
The greatest line we've had in the modern era was built that way.
Diehl: 5th round pick
Snee: 2nd round pick
O'hara: Undrafted FA, signed as a FA from Cleveland
Seubert: Undrafted FA
McKenzie: 3rd round pick, signed as a FA from NYJ
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In comment 15271475 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15271472 Go Terps said:
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Jones has sucked for the first two years of his career. He needs to not suck in year 3 or there won't be a year 4.
I’m just glad there’s officially no more excuses.
I'm expecting more excuses after next season. Then I expect the excuses to go away when the Giants draft another quarterback, at which point everyone will slowly start claiming they saw all along that Jones couldn't play.
In this scenario the excuses wouldn’t go away, they’d reset to whoever the new QB is. And then we’d be doing this all over again, it’s going to be fun!
exactly. and the Terps of the world will start all over if they don't pick the guy they wanted.
Win more games then you lose. Score more points.
I think Jones is up for that challenge.
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In comment 15271475 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15271472 Go Terps said:
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Jones has sucked for the first two years of his career. He needs to not suck in year 3 or there won't be a year 4.
I’m just glad there’s officially no more excuses.
I'm expecting more excuses after next season. Then I expect the excuses to go away when the Giants draft another quarterback, at which point everyone will slowly start claiming they saw all along that Jones couldn't play.
In this scenario the excuses wouldn’t go away, they’d reset to whoever the new QB is. And then we’d be doing this all over again, it’s going to be fun!
This is accurate.
Left Tackle is really the only premium position you should chase early in the draft, IMO.
Good points made here. And agree that is how many Olines come together, with a mix of various levels of talent and experience since it is one of the larger positional units on a roster.
Well as has been mentioned MUCH earlier in this thread, this is a unit, literally moreso than any other, that needs time to work together and gel. Constant churning never let's this group settle and find it's stride.
Most other units/groups on the team are only that way in name. But the o-line actually has to work collectively in unison to succeed.
Fucking why?
They troll you on the daily, stop letting them.
2 weeks ago BW and Terps were seemingly frustrated because I thought Jones was going to have a very good 2021. There was no evidence to justify that in their view. I think there is. The players they brought in match his skill set perfectly. The offense can threaten more of the field. Barkley coming back. Having options will help his SY56' famous decision making liability. There is more to it, I don't want to type it all again.
That is my opinion.
I might be wrong. Yep, flat out admitting I am wrong about this stuff sometimes. I am not a professional.
This week in a different discussion I am building on what that opinion might mean.
Because:
The players they brought in match his skill set so well, if he has a 2020 like year, The Giants should move on.
That opinion should not make a lot of noise.
Of course, if the OL is a shit show or the receiving group has 5 starters out it will matter.
How did we get so uptight that I have to preface my opinions with disclaimers?
It is because we let Terps and BW run this board.
We should stop that.
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In comment 15271498 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15271475 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15271472 Go Terps said:
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Jones has sucked for the first two years of his career. He needs to not suck in year 3 or there won't be a year 4.
I’m just glad there’s officially no more excuses.
I'm expecting more excuses after next season. Then I expect the excuses to go away when the Giants draft another quarterback, at which point everyone will slowly start claiming they saw all along that Jones couldn't play.
In this scenario the excuses wouldn’t go away, they’d reset to whoever the new QB is. And then we’d be doing this all over again, it’s going to be fun!
This is accurate.
You guys think we're going to overdraft another quarterback because we view him as Eli 2.0?
I don't see Judge being that stupid.
The greatest line we've had in the modern era was built that way.
Diehl: 5th round pick
Snee: 2nd round pick
O'hara: Undrafted FA, signed as a FA from Cleveland
Seubert: Undrafted FA
McKenzie: 3rd round pick, signed as a FA from NYJ
The risk isn't about how a player was acquired, it's if they are proven NFL caliber players or not. That group only played roughly 2.5 years together -- by the time they laced it up as a unit:
- Diehl was a day one 16 game starter, who had started 4 season and never missed a game
- By 2005 Chris Snee was in the conversation for the better guards in the NFC, by 2007 he had 2 very good seasons under his belt
- By 2007 O'hara had been the Giants starting center for 3 years
- Kareem McKenzie was in the conversation as a top 5 right tackle in the NFL when the Giants acquired him in 2007
The only risky player was Suebert, who had pretty well recovered from his injury.
I don't think that group compares well to this group.
The unequivocal uncertainty about the most important position on the field is by far the most significant challenge facing the Giants this year. The excuses about the OL and/or offensive coordinator may be legitimate reasons leading to team success or failure, but they will not be credible reasons that defend or excuse poor performance by DJ.
Joe Burrow and Justin Herbert had shaky OLs last year and there isn't a single credible football guy who would suggest that either is a question mark going forward. Likewise, no matter how good the OL of Miami or Carolina is, there will be lingering uncertainty about Tua and Darnold unless or until they win a Super Bowl.
The last four games in which I had even a shred of optimism about this team (9/10/2017, 12/13/2020, 12/20/2020 and 12/27/2020) they were disgraced by at least two touchdowns and the games were not nearly as close as the scores. And yet I keep reading about the "great second half improvement of the 2020 season". As a lifelong fan of this great franchise, it is almost embarrassing to read such delusional crap...
So count me in the "Yin" camp until they start winning real football games against good teams during the actual football season.
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Left Tackle is really the only premium position you should chase early in the draft, IMO.
Lane Johnson and Tristan Wirfs have rings that say otherwise. Not to mention the money Kansas City paid Mitchell Schwartz and the Lombardi they won with him at RT.
There are exceptions to every rule.
I think what this team is missing is actually the plug and play vets like O’Hara and McKenzie. Guys with proven NFL pedigree, that certainly got better as part of the unit, but didn’t need to be taught how to play NFL football.
If the Giants had two vets in the prime of their career on this line, who didn’t need ‘coaching up’ — I think that would make all the difference.
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I was talking about acquiring them and coaching them up.
I think what this team is missing is actually the plug and play vets like O’Hara and McKenzie. Guys with proven NFL pedigree, that certainly got better as part of the unit, but didn’t need to be taught how to play NFL football.
If the Giants had two vets in the prime of their career on this line, who didn’t need ‘coaching up’ — I think that would make all the difference.
I'm not so sure those guys exist any more. They've cycled out of the league at this point and the new style of O-linemen, the spread offense style being produced in HS and College, are the vets now.
Zeitler would have classified as that vet pressence, but they let him go so they must like what they see, developmentally.
That’s what I think is missing on this team. The closest thing on this team to that is Hernandez, who has been a mess the last two years.
My view is if the Giants had two proven vets penciled into the starting lineup, I wouldn’t view the group as such a gamble.
I think it’s a big leap of faith Peart, Lemieux, and Hernandez pan out. And I think it’s even more dire if the fall back is Fulton and Solder.
The unequivocal uncertainty about the most important position on the field is by far the most significant challenge facing the Giants this year. The excuses about the OL and/or offensive coordinator may be legitimate reasons leading to team success or failure, but they will not be credible reasons that defend or excuse poor performance by DJ.
Joe Burrow and Justin Herbert had shaky OLs last year and there isn't a single credible football guy who would suggest that either is a question mark going forward. Likewise, no matter how good the OL of Miami or Carolina is, there will be lingering uncertainty about Tua and Darnold unless or until they win a Super Bowl.
The last four games in which I had even a shred of optimism about this team (9/10/2017, 12/13/2020, 12/20/2020 and 12/27/2020) they were disgraced by at least two touchdowns and the games were not nearly as close as the scores. And yet I keep reading about the "great second half improvement of the 2020 season". As a lifelong fan of this great franchise, it is almost embarrassing to read such delusional crap...
So count me in the "Yin" camp until they start winning real football games against good teams during the actual football season.
Frankly, I actually don't mind those who are super-optimistic about Jones going forward. If they see something - real or imagined - that gets them excited, so be it. I just haven't seen enough yet to hitch my wagon to. Or a strong enough case to change my mind. So I have a healthy amount of skepticism.
What bothers me the most, however, is how many suppress the expectations for Jones. I've said it so many times that I have to be on the verge of carpal tunnel syndrome, but there are a core of posters who make it seem like Jones was a 6th round pick, not the 6th overall pick. So they give him a lot of slack for performance. And I just can't subscribe to that because my expectations are that the 6th pick needs to be a legit difference maker and overcome obstacles. Not a player who needs all of this top talent around him to possibly get him to shine.
So that's why I constantly ask what are the expectation for Jones? Give me some idea where he should be statistically. And the most will punt on that and say it's just important that we win and not totally focus on Jones's output. Which is such a copout for the 6th pick in the draft...
MOST, not many, MOST 1st round QB's end up busting.
If Jones becomes a starting QB in the NFL for a significant amount of time for this franchise (and yes, that means above average and significant contributer), then he has beaten the odds.
You keep banging this 6th overall pick drum, and expectations tied to being the 6th overall pick like it's the #1 overall pick or something.
You talk about tempering expectations and then turn around and heap unrealistic expectations onto Jones because he was drafted 6th.
Do fans even know what stats or metrics are important anyway? We still have a poster who uses AY/A continually here to apply to a QB where football people use it to measure offensive efficiency.
I can say Jones needs to have 30 TD's this year, but what the fuck does it matter if he throws 26TD's and the team makes the playoffs. Or that he throws 40TD's and we miss the playoffs?
Do fans even know what stats or metrics are important anyway? We still have a poster who uses AY/A continually here to apply to a QB where football people use it to measure offensive efficiency.
I can say Jones needs to have 30 TD's this year, but what the fuck does it matter if he throws 26TD's and the team makes the playoffs. Or that he throws 40TD's and we miss the playoffs?
40 TDs and missing the playoffs would be quite fine for some..It’s the Stats, Fats.
Get the QB and Head Coach right with a system of drafting OL while remaining cost effective at the positional group and you give your team a chance to be competitive every year. Hopefully you break through a couple times when the other parts align. It is not easy but I think this is the way that franchises stay competitive. You can pick up comp picks as decent players get overpaid elsewhere. I think this is where the Giants will attempt to go.
I half believe some posters would rather have Herbert or Murray, even if it meant the team missed the playoffs. They'd just turn their disdain elsewhere.
On whose shoulders goes the blame lie for losing the game?
MOST, not many, MOST 1st round QB's end up busting.
If Jones becomes a starting QB in the NFL for a significant amount of time for this franchise (and yes, that means above average and significant contributer), then he has beaten the odds.
You keep banging this 6th overall pick drum, and expectations tied to being the 6th overall pick like it's the #1 overall pick or something.
You talk about tempering expectations and then turn around and heap unrealistic expectations onto Jones because he was drafted 6th.
You do realize the 6th pick in the draft is only five spots away from the #1 pick. Right?
How, exactly, have my expectations been unreasonable? I'm all ears on this one.
For '21, for example, I did basic math based on where we likely need to be if we want to qualify for the playoffs, based on PPG the last three years, and Jones, as the QB, should be expected to throw at least 30TDs passes. From there, I expect at least a 65% completion %, 2:1 TD/INT ratio and a YPA of at least 7.3 (using the rest of the league to find a benchmark).
These aren't Mahomes, Rodgers, or Wilson levels. They are in fact reasonable. And more reasonable than most on this board.
Unreasonable...just LOFL.
The prevailing opinion around here at the time was, "Damn, the kid did great given the shitty offensive line." It wasn't just the 2-to-1 TD-to-INT ratio (and a franchise record 24 TDs for a rookie QB). It wasn't just the comeback victories against the Bucs and Redskins. It was the incredible throws he made under duress even in losing efforts.
We were all told the book on him coming out of college was that he wasn't a good deep ball passer, yet we were almost all impressed by his incredibly accurate deep ball time and time again (beginning in the preseason).
The only serious knock on him his rookie season by pundits and fans was the ridiculous fumbling. And the 2020 offseason debate was whether or not that could be fixed or not. People were not arguing that offseason that Jones could not throw the ball. To say otherwise is revisionist.
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considering fans care about winning more than statistics, who gives a fuck what they expect from a stat standpoint?
Do fans even know what stats or metrics are important anyway? We still have a poster who uses AY/A continually here to apply to a QB where football people use it to measure offensive efficiency.
I can say Jones needs to have 30 TD's this year, but what the fuck does it matter if he throws 26TD's and the team makes the playoffs. Or that he throws 40TD's and we miss the playoffs?
40 TDs and missing the playoffs would be quite fine for some..It’s the Stats, Fats.
I already addressed this back in February here. Winning and making the playoffs in the NFL is about throwing the ball to score points.
On a separate note, I find it interesting that FMIC, Britt, and others tell us not to care about Jones's stats as long as he wins...but on the other hand they tell us how awesome Barkley's 2000 yards in 2018 were in a season when the Giants went 5-11.
I have to come around to the idea that there are fans here that just want to talk about how awesome the Giants are. There's nothing wrong with that.
Patience is overrated for QBs in today's NFL. That's just the way it is. College prospects are coming into the league more ready than ever to hit the ground running. The league is just littered with examples.
So, indeed, I am guilty of wanting Jones to perform similarly...
You know how many team's QB's made the postseason last year without throwing 30TD's??
7 of them. Half the teams in the postseason.
30 TD's is such an arbitrary number, but it gets thrown around as a metric for successful.
You'll know when Jones is successful by watching the Giants play and whether they are winning games and whether he is a part of that.
Throwing out 30 TD's as making or breaking him is dumb.
As FMiC said, if he throws 26 TD's and the Giants win 11 games, is he a loser?
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In comment 15271681 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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considering fans care about winning more than statistics, who gives a fuck what they expect from a stat standpoint?
Do fans even know what stats or metrics are important anyway? We still have a poster who uses AY/A continually here to apply to a QB where football people use it to measure offensive efficiency.
I can say Jones needs to have 30 TD's this year, but what the fuck does it matter if he throws 26TD's and the team makes the playoffs. Or that he throws 40TD's and we miss the playoffs?
40 TDs and missing the playoffs would be quite fine for some..It’s the Stats, Fats.
I already addressed this back in February here. Winning and making the playoffs in the NFL is about throwing the ball to score points.
On a separate note, I find it interesting that FMIC, Britt, and others tell us not to care about Jones's stats as long as he wins...but on the other hand they tell us how awesome Barkley's 2000 yards in 2018 were in a season when the Giants went 5-11.
I have to come around to the idea that there are fans here that just want to talk about how awesome the Giants are. There's nothing wrong with that.
I don't tell you how awesome Barkley's stats were. I point to them to refute the ridiculous takes on him. You know the ones that say you can't win with stats that he put up, and other assorted bullshit.
When I start a thread talking about how great Barkley's stats are, let me know. I reserve comments on stats for the daily hot takes about how shitty he and Jones are
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In comment 15271681 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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considering fans care about winning more than statistics, who gives a fuck what they expect from a stat standpoint?
Do fans even know what stats or metrics are important anyway? We still have a poster who uses AY/A continually here to apply to a QB where football people use it to measure offensive efficiency.
I can say Jones needs to have 30 TD's this year, but what the fuck does it matter if he throws 26TD's and the team makes the playoffs. Or that he throws 40TD's and we miss the playoffs?
40 TDs and missing the playoffs would be quite fine for some..It’s the Stats, Fats.
I already addressed this back in February here. Winning and making the playoffs in the NFL is about throwing the ball to score points.
On a separate note, I find it interesting that FMIC, Britt, and others tell us not to care about Jones's stats as long as he wins...but on the other hand they tell us how awesome Barkley's 2000 yards in 2018 were in a season when the Giants went 5-11.
I have to come around to the idea that there are fans here that just want to talk about how awesome the Giants are. There's nothing wrong with that.
but on the other hand they tell us how awesome Barkley's 2000 yards in 2018 were in a season when the Giants went 5-11.
Oh please, it’s pointed out ONLY in the context that he was a smart, generational pick and he did something very, very few RBs have ever done.
Barkley had 2000 yards and 15 TD's but it was worthless because we were 6-10
Meanwhile, Herbert had 30 TD's and hit your magical number but the Chargers were only 7-9.
That's why your magical number of 30 is bullsh-t.
You know how many team's QB's made the postseason last year without throwing 30TD's??
7 of them. Half the teams in the postseason.
So half of them did.
And to add context, because you won't, one was LJax, who is an uncanny runnner, and Brees, who missed 4 games and would have easily blown by 30TDs.
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you did the math, Ace??
You know how many team's QB's made the postseason last year without throwing 30TD's??
7 of them. Half the teams in the postseason.
So half of them did.
And to add context, because you won't, one was LJax, who is an uncanny runnner, and Brees, who missed 4 games and would have easily blown by 30TDs.
Great Then explain 2019 when only 4 QB's total threw for 30 TD's??
The point has been and remains that the 30TD metric is just complete horseshit.
Funny you ask for context now when context usually doesn't have a place in your mind when talking about Jones.
30 TD's is such an arbitrary number, but it gets thrown around as a metric for successful.
Throwing out 30 TD's as making or breaking him is dumb.
It's not arbitrary at all. Further, it's based on 17 games, not 16. Plus, the addition of more toys for Jones. You do realize 11 QBs threw for 30TDs last year, right? And Brees would have been #12 if he didn't get hurt for four games.
And, again, it's based on trying to get to at least 24PPG to qualify for the playoffs.
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30 TD's is such an arbitrary number, but it gets thrown around as a metric for successful.
Throwing out 30 TD's as making or breaking him is dumb.
It's not arbitrary at all. Further, it's based on 17 games, not 16. Plus, the addition of more toys for Jones. You do realize 11 QBs threw for 30TDs last year, right? And Brees would have been #12 if he didn't get hurt for four games.
And, again, it's based on trying to get to at least 24PPG to qualify for the playoffs.
BS. You were throwing out that 30 TD number WAY before the league moved to 17 games.
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We've been through this before.
MOST, not many, MOST 1st round QB's end up busting.
If Jones becomes a starting QB in the NFL for a significant amount of time for this franchise (and yes, that means above average and significant contributer), then he has beaten the odds.
You keep banging this 6th overall pick drum, and expectations tied to being the 6th overall pick like it's the #1 overall pick or something.
You talk about tempering expectations and then turn around and heap unrealistic expectations onto Jones because he was drafted 6th.
You do realize the 6th pick in the draft is only five spots away from the #1 pick. Right?
How, exactly, have my expectations been unreasonable? I'm all ears on this one.
For '21, for example, I did basic math based on where we likely need to be if we want to qualify for the playoffs, based on PPG the last three years, and Jones, as the QB, should be expected to throw at least 30TDs passes. From there, I expect at least a 65% completion %, 2:1 TD/INT ratio and a YPA of at least 7.3 (using the rest of the league to find a benchmark).
These aren't Mahomes, Rodgers, or Wilson levels. They are in fact reasonable. And more reasonable than most on this board.
Unreasonable...just LOFL.
Must we list all the #1 overall QBs who were busts. I don't think we have time to name all the top 5 who didn't make it
Great Then explain 2019 when only 4 QB's total threw for 30 TD's??
The point has been and remains that the 30TD metric is just complete horseshit.
Funny you ask for context now when context usually doesn't have a place in your mind when talking about Jones.
Well, I looked at 2018 as well. And in 2018, I believe 7 QBs who made the playoffs threw for at least 30TDs. And Brady had 29.
Plus, as I said to Britt, there are now 17 games in '21. Which should make getting to 30 TDs even more resonable.
BS. You were throwing out that 30 TD number WAY before the league moved to 17 games.
For '21? Uh - no.
Must we list all the #1 overall QBs who were busts. I don't think we have time to name all the top 5 who didn't make it
I'm not sure I understand your point. So we should feel good if Jones fails because there is a 50%+ bust rate?
And therefore misery loves company...?!?
Hmmm. What an unreasonable ask for a guy who just got, per many, a new #1 WR, a new first round WR, a new, seasoned TE, and SB, a good receiving RB, coming back from injury.
JFC.
All it does is continue the merry-go-round on these threads which can't really be taken seriously. I've lost track of what anyone is even arguing anymore.
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Must we list all the #1 overall QBs who were busts. I don't think we have time to name all the top 5 who didn't make it
I'm not sure I understand your point. So we should feel good if Jones fails because there is a 50%+ bust rate?
And therefore misery loves company...?!?
no because you're so wedded to your Jones sucks narrative that you can see anything else, or you lack reading comprehension skills. YOU said this:
"You do realize the 6th pick in the draft is only five spots away from the #1 pick. Right?
How, exactly, have my expectations been unreasonable? I'm all ears on this one."
As if high picks ALWAYS have to work out. Many times they don't. And to Eric's point, much of the Jones comments here are just nonsensical bashing. Yes he has things to clean up, but has shown that he can play.
I'm wedded to the fact that he's been average, at best thus far, and he needs to get considerably better and live up to his expectations.
Fine. But both Cousins and Watson, especially, have pretty beefy resumes to fall back on.
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BS. You were throwing out that 30 TD number WAY before the league moved to 17 games.
For '21? Uh - no.
The league announced it was moving to a 17 games season on March 31st. About two months ago.
You're saying that you NEVER threw out that 30 TD number as a barometer prior to knowing it was moving to 17 games?
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BS. You were throwing out that 30 TD number WAY before the league moved to 17 games.
For '21? Uh - no.
LOL. Just a quick scan of the archives shows you saying in January that Jones needs to throw 30TD's.
Is it anything more than just obvious trolling at this point?
Because it's a new ballgame in '21, right?
At the time, I thought that one of the worst personnel moves in the last decade was the Bears trading up in 2017 for Mitchell Trubisky. But in his second year, Trubisky made the pro bowl and led the Bears to the NFC Central title with a 12-4 record. And through his four years with the Bears, he led them to a 29-21 (58%) record, was 64-37 TD/INT (1.7 ratio) and had a 64% completion percentage.
I would bet that most people here would be thrilled if DJ can lead the Giants in 2021 to the playoffs with ten wins while achieving this personal stat line. And yet, I would also bet that most on this site think the Bears made exactly the right decision in drafting Fields and moving on from Trubisky.
All that said, I think it is absolutely fair to have certain expectations for him based on being a #6 pick.
Geez.
Is there really a huge difference expecting Jones to deliver 30 TDs over 17 games as opposed to 16 games?
Jones produced total 26 TDs, 161 first total first downs, accounted for 23 turnovers
You look at a player like Jameis Winston who lost his job following 2019 -- he produced 31 TDs, 261 first downs, and accounted for 35 turnovers.
Players who turnover the ball a lot are generally viewed as not outweighing the risk. If Jones continues to turn the ball over more than he scores, he's going to lose his job.
Jones followed up his 2019 campaign but producing 12 total TDs, and accounting 16 turnovers.
He incontrovertibly needs to improve this to be a good a quarterback.
Is there really a huge difference expecting Jones to deliver 30 TDs over 17 games as opposed to 16 games?
Does it have to be pointed out that 4 QB's threw for over 30 TD's two years ago? I'm pretty sure there were more than 4 playoff teams, but I don't want to fuckup your in-depth math calculations there, Sheldon.
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a quarterback, it is what it is. They want immediate results because they saw Justin Herbert have some awesome games as a rookie and it makes them sad. We have to move along and hope DJ makes a big jump this year, which he absolutely can
Patience is overrated for QBs in today's NFL. That's just the way it is. College prospects are coming into the league more ready than ever to hit the ground running. The league is just littered with examples.
So, indeed, I am guilty of wanting Jones to perform similarly...
When it comes to the expectations for high draft picks to perform immediately, the NFL is behind only the NBA. With CFB being the defacto minor league, and the NFL and CFB games being closer than ever before, patience for development is only going to decrease across the league.
LOL. Just a quick scan of the archives shows you saying in January that Jones needs to throw 30TD's.
Is it anything more than just obvious trolling at this point?
Let me get this straight - it's "trolling" expecting Jones to throw 30 TD passes, either over 16 games or 17 games.
Each simple division exercise using either 16 or 17 games as the denominator results in LESS than 2 TDs per game.
Again, what a burdensome ask...
What a "troll"...
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I really don't remember when I started to factor in the 17th game. But it seemed a forgone conclusion that the owners were going to move forward once the players voted last year.
Is there really a huge difference expecting Jones to deliver 30 TDs over 17 games as opposed to 16 games?
Does it have to be pointed out that 4 QB's threw for over 30 TD's two years ago? I'm pretty sure there were more than 4 playoff teams, but I don't want to fuckup your in-depth math calculations there, Sheldon.
And for the second time, in 2018, half the QBs in the playoffs threw for 30TDs, and Brady threw for 29.
Isn't that what your math says, Euclid?
Frankly, I actually don't mind those who are super-optimistic about Jones going forward. If they see something - real or imagined - that gets them excited, so be it. I just haven't seen enough yet to hitch my wagon to. Or a strong enough case to change my mind. So I have a healthy amount of skepticism.
What bothers me the most, however, is how many suppress the expectations for Jones. I've said it so many times that I have to be on the verge of carpal tunnel syndrome, but there are a core of posters who make it seem like Jones was a 6th round pick, not the 6th overall pick. So they give him a lot of slack for performance. And I just can't subscribe to that because my expectations are that the 6th pick needs to be a legit difference maker and overcome obstacles. Not a player who needs all of this top talent around him to possibly get him to shine.
So that's why I constantly ask what are the expectation for Jones? Give me some idea where he should be statistically. And the most will punt on that and say it's just important that we win and not totally focus on Jones's output. Which is such a copout for the 6th pick in the draft...
I would feel the same if he were a 6th RD pick. As long as the coaching staff believes that he is the guy to do this, the draft position is meaningless.
It is worthy of discussion but completely inconsequential as to the expectations for a starting QB.
He's the QB, we should expect him to lead the team to victory.
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LOL. Just a quick scan of the archives shows you saying in January that Jones needs to throw 30TD's.
Is it anything more than just obvious trolling at this point?
Let me get this straight - it's "trolling" expecting Jones to throw 30 TD passes, either over 16 games or 17 games.
Each simple division exercise using either 16 or 17 games as the denominator results in LESS than 2 TDs per game.
Again, what a burdensome ask...
What a "troll"...
It's arbitrary. Why is 30 the barometer?
If Daniel Jones throws 30 TD's next year but the Giants are 7-9 (like Herbert this past year with the Chargers), then what will the new barometer be? Because the bullseye will certainly still be on Jones for the record.
It's because of Euler's math!!
Isn't that what your math says, Euclid?
No, it's a reasonable ask in a league set up to encourage passing to score points. Especially for a high draft pick.
Each simple division exercise using either 16 or 17 games as the denominator results in LESS than 2 TDs per game.
Again, what a burdensome ask...
What a "troll"...
I think the more interesting question (one I doubt you’ll get an answer to) — is what are the measures you think would keep Jones from keeping his job beyond 2021?
This of course requires taking a stance and generating an opinion.
Which is exactly the flipside of the argument I make about a reasonable expectation for Jones to KEEP his job next year, which would be:
Jones DOES show improvement, the team has a winning record and is competing for the playoffs, and Jones is contributing to that.
Oh... Did you want a number or some sort?
Based on years 1 and 2, and based on his play at Duke, there's no reason to think that will happen.
Ohh and we have 2 firsts next year which may not have happened if we didn’t make some of these FA signings and instead stuck to 11 to “reach”. Even better is we can potentially fill 2 holes next year on the first round and won’t need to be part of the FA frenzy.
It is the only reasonable answer.
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Strong stance there Britt! Way to really put yourself out there.
It is the only reasonable answer.
How do you measure if Jones is showing improvement?
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In comment 15271821 christian said:
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Strong stance there Britt! Way to really put yourself out there.
It is the only reasonable answer.
How do you measure if Jones is showing improvement?
He cuts down on the Fumbles. He has a decent TD/IN ratio. He's making plays with his legs, and passing efficiently. He makes a couple of clutch throws in big spots.
I would argue yes because it is clear that his ceiling is too low to legitimately compete for an NFL Super Bowl.
He cuts down on the Fumbles. He has a decent TD/IN ratio. He's making plays with his legs, and passing efficiently. He makes a couple of clutch throws in big spots.
Do you have a rough sense of what you’d consider improvement?
I would argue yes because it is clear that his ceiling is too low to legitimately compete for an NFL Super Bowl.
Absolutely. And he's been a better player than Jones.
I have no doubts that if Jones were on another team he'd be held in very low esteem on BBI.
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How do you measure if Jones is showing improvement?
He cuts down on the Fumbles. He has a decent TD/IN ratio. He's making plays with his legs, and passing efficiently. He makes a couple of clutch throws in big spots.
Do you have a rough sense of what you’d consider improvement?
For what purpose?
If Saquon Barkley runs for 200 yards and 3 TD's in a game next year and we win comfortably 24-7, but Jones manages the game efficiently and only throws for 100 yards 0 TD's and 1 INT off the hands of Evan Engram does it matter?
Daniel Jones is not Aaron Rodgers or Patrick Mahomes. You might be able to do that with guys like that over the course of 10 years.
But doing it at this point, for Daniel Jones, is useless.
The main thing he needs to do at this point is improve. You'll know it when you see it, and you'll know it if you don't.
Big Blue Blogger said:
Britt in VA said:
That's true. I would suggest that perhaps Marcus Cannon is the exception (as the Brady/Belichick Pats were the exception to many rules), and championship teams with premium RTs like Wirfs and Johnson are becoming the rule.
That said, I feel much better about our RT situation this year, now that Peart has a year under his belt and Solder is around to (we hope) set a higher floor than Fleming. Cam was more of a known quantity than the post-opt-out Solder, but the quantity he was known as was JAG.
If you’re going to define success, at least back it up with even a general measure.
I’d like to see Jones have 3:2 total TD to total turnover ratio, generate 200+ first downs, be in the top 15 in total yards by a QB, and the Giants win 8 games. If he’s not +/- 10% within those measures I think the Giants should draft a new QB on round one.
Daniel Jones is not Aaron Rodgers or Patrick Mahomes. You might be able to do that with guys like that over the course of 10 years.
But doing it at this point, for Daniel Jones, is useless.
The main thing he needs to do at this point is improve. You'll know it when you see it, and you'll know it if you don't.
Jones can improve a lot and still only be a middle of the road NFL starter.
If you haven't already bought a #8 jersey, I would hold off. In 3 years there's a good chance it's a relic, because I don't see any way he gets a second contract here.
If you’re going to define success, at least back it up with even a general measure.
I’d like to see Jones have 3:2 total TD to total turnover ratio, generate 200+ first downs, be in the top 15 in total yards by a QB, and the Giants win 8 games. If he’s not +/- 10% within those measures I think the Giants should draft a new QB on round one.
We just view the game very differently. You are clearly heavily skewed toward the mathematical results element and I'm more skewed to the strategic/athletic matchup/human element.
All I want is the Giants to win.
I was worried about that until they traded for Chicago's first round pick.
I'm pretty confident someone like Joe Judge is looking at both the data and the subjective components to determine if someone has played well and whether they are part of the future.
I'm pretty confident someone like Joe Judge is looking at both the data and the subjective components to determine if someone has played well and whether they are part of the future.
As am I. And despite Daniel Jones' statistical performance last season, and I'm certain he's watched and rewatched all the tape from 2018 and 2019 on Jones, in order to add context to that rigid statistical information.
At this point, he seems confident Jones is part of the future, despite the statistical information that should indicate he's not.
I'd be careful reading into what any coach says. There's nothing to be gained by being publicly critical of Jones. Judge is too smart for that.
I find the trade for Chicago's pick more telling than anything Judge says. The Giants have placed themselves in prime position to get a quarterback in the 2022 draft, or trade for the right veteran if the opportunity avails itself.
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At this point, he seems confident Jones is part of the future, despite the statistical information that should indicate he's not.
I'd be careful reading into what any coach says. There's nothing to be gained by being publicly critical of Jones. Judge is too smart for that.
I find the trade for Chicago's pick more telling than anything Judge says. The Giants have placed themselves in prime position to get a quarterback in the 2022 draft, or trade for the right veteran if the opportunity avails itself.
You honestly believe that they traded out of #11 because of Jones? Geez.
The Giants traded down.
I would put a great deal of stock into JJs positive comments re: DJ.
One comment I think was a great insight into at least how Judge thinks, was when he said the Giants need better weapons and better coaching.
I think Judge is systematically going through the order of operations. I suspect the next shoe to drop would be Garrett if things don’t improve.
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Let me get this straight - it's "trolling" expecting Jones to throw 30 TD passes, either over 16 games or 17 games.
Each simple division exercise using either 16 or 17 games as the denominator results in LESS than 2 TDs per game.
Again, what a burdensome ask...
What a "troll"...
I think the more interesting question (one I doubt you’ll get an answer to) — is what are the measures you think would keep Jones from keeping his job beyond 2021?
This of course requires taking a stance and generating an opinion.
Why is it an interesting question? Do we decide Jones' future? Taking a stance on something you don't control sure seems like a great exercise.
It's also reasonable to take what Judge actually says at face value.
New York Giants head coach Joe Judge has sounded like a broken record at times, frequently praising quarterback Daniel Jones and insisting the team is committed to 23-year-old.
Even as the NFL’s quarterback carousel began to spin this offseason, Judge didn’t blink.
“We have confidence in Daniel, he’s a player that we want to work with going forward with this team. He’s shown us a lot of improvement, there’s a lot of things. I can go on and on about how we respect him and like him and how the locker room responds to him, but the simple answer to that is no, [our stance on Jones has not changed],” Judge told reporters at the start of free agency.
No matter how many times Judge repeats himself, there seems to be a slew of disbelievers — people who think the coach is merely toting the company line.
Judge has never once given that impression, but for those who flat-out refuse to see the positives in Jones, they simply can not buy into what they are hearing. In private, they thought, there’s no way Judge is such a staunch Jones supporter.
Unsurprisingly, it turns out those naysayers are wrong.
Retired NFL wide receiver and current media personality, Nate Burleson, recently sat down with Judge as their sons played a basketball game for Don Bosco Prep. One of the first questions Burleson asked Judge was about Jones.
Judge didn’t hesitate in response to Burleson’s question, immediately pointing out that the team needs to do more in their support of Jones.
“I asked him what’s going on with Daniel Jones, and he said ‘It’s up to us to help him out with coaching and getting him more weapons,'” Burleson told the New York Post.
It’s one of the reasons why the Giants went out and signed superstar wide receiver Kenny Golladay and signed running back Devontae Booker to back up Saquon Barkley. It’s also why they added tight end Kyle Rudolph and speedy wide receiver John Ross.
It’s clear that Judge and the Giants have meant what they’ve said about Jones. You can see it in their personnel moves and now, finally, you have proof that Judge is saying the same things privately that he’s saying publicly.
Giants' Joe Judge offers support of Daniel Jones publicly and privately - ( New Window )
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At this point, he seems confident Jones is part of the future, despite the statistical information that should indicate he's not.
I'd be careful reading into what any coach says. There's nothing to be gained by being publicly critical of Jones. Judge is too smart for that.
I find the trade for Chicago's pick more telling than anything Judge says. The Giants have placed themselves in prime position to get a quarterback in the 2022 draft, or trade for the right veteran if the opportunity avails itself.
You honestly believe that they traded out of #11 because of Jones? Geez.
I think he honestly does believe that. Based on the frequency in which tells the board that Jones sucks.
I believe Judge is committed to DJ this year, barring injury or complete failure. But I also believe he'll pivot if Jones has another mediocre season, he's not tied to him in the way DG is
Bud Judge also strikes me as the type of guy that will do everything in his power to help you succeed but that won't stop him from pivoting if it isn't working.
And that's where I think he's at with Jones, and the rest of the team/staff for that matter.
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A guy who had decent stats, made the pro bowl and led the team to the playoffs?
I would argue yes because it is clear that his ceiling is too low to legitimately compete for an NFL Super Bowl.
Absolutely. And he's been a better player than Jones.
I have no doubts that if Jones were on another team he'd be held in very low esteem on BBI.
After their first two years, it's very close between Jones and Trubisky. May actually be a dead heat in some respects.
However, Trubisky may get the edge because he actually improved from YR1 to YR2. Jones, at best, stayed flat.
Just based on the eye-test, I'd probably still go Jones. Watching Trubisky plan QB is painful.
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Let me get this straight - it's "trolling" expecting Jones to throw 30 TD passes, either over 16 games or 17 games.
Each simple division exercise using either 16 or 17 games as the denominator results in LESS than 2 TDs per game.
Again, what a burdensome ask...
What a "troll"...
I think the more interesting question (one I doubt you’ll get an answer to) — is what are the measures you think would keep Jones from keeping his job beyond 2021?
This of course requires taking a stance and generating an opinion.
I've asked that before actually. Most of the replies have typically tied Jones to wins and playoffs.
That's doesn't quite add up for me. I want to see true individual improvement that can be measured in some statistical form. The division is so up in the air with such an unimpressive cast of QBs outside of Dallas, we could make the playoffs by having a dominant D. And with Jones really doing playing to an average level. The Trubisky Model...right?
At which point, his future would be back on the table in my view...
Unless of course they’re not really fine with it...
Unless of course they’re not really fine with it...
What I find interesting are the posters who seem to have no problem projecting production for Barkley, Galloway, Toney, etc.
However, the two sacred cows around here when it comes to expectations are DJ and LW.
God forbid we have any expectations for our franchise QB or for one of the highest paid defensive players in the league...
Unless of course they’re not really fine with it...
This your post on the reasonable expectation thread?
Jimmy Googs : 2:21 pm : link : reply
they lose.
Reasonable expectations for Daniel Jones is to be one of the main reasons behind that happening. Getting the Offense to score on average around 25 points per game would be a decent target. Assume his stats will follow accordingly.
This is in line with everything I've been saying on this thread.
Why do I need to provide appropriate TD/INT ratios and/or TD thresholds that Jones need to meet in order to deemed successful or not?
I pretty much agree with what you just said exactly. Why isn't that enough?
Jimminy Cricket, some of you act like Jones shouldn’t expect to be held accountable for wins and loses. He’s an NFL QB1, it’s his job to win football games. Why wouldn’t “it all come down to him”? Furthermore, I’m fairly certain Jones wants it all to come down to him. Has there ever been a great NFL QB that didn’t want it to all come down to him? I don’t think so.
Which is EXACTLY what I've been arguing on THIS thread. Then you call out people for being unwilling to put numbers on it.
I don't care what you've posted in the past. Today, you said it was reasonable to expect the stats to fall in line with the rest, which is all I've been saying.
Now you're switching back to putting actual numbers on it?
Jimminy Cricket, some of you act like Jones shouldn’t expect to be held accountable for wins and loses. He’s an NFL QB1, it’s his job to win football games. Why wouldn’t “it all come down to him”? Furthermore, I’m fairly certain Jones wants it all to come down to him. Has there ever been a great NFL QB that didn’t want it to all come down to him? I don’t think so.
Read the thread for context.
Winning games is probably the most reasonable barometer being used here.
People seem to want exact stat lines and statistical thresholds for some reason.
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targets or expectations for Jones and/or the Offense? You read all the time on here that posters are fine being wrong with opinions and projections, so why all dug in on this one?
Unless of course they’re not really fine with it...
What I find interesting are the posters who seem to have no problem projecting production for Barkley, Galloway, Toney, etc.
However, the two sacred cows around here when it comes to expectations are DJ and LW.
God forbid we have any expectations for our franchise QB or for one of the highest paid defensive players in the league...
Can you point to any posters who project production for some players but not others or is this just another made up scenario??
I'm still trying to figure out what it matters by fans giving projections. It literally means nothing. The better question is why are some of you stuck on demanding stat predictions for DJ?
Because that is happening on this thread by several posters. Not some happy horseshit about posters projecting stats for certain players and not others.
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targets or expectations for Jones and/or the Offense? You read all the time on here that posters are fine being wrong with opinions and projections, so why all dug in on this one?
Unless of course they’re not really fine with it...
What I find interesting are the posters who seem to have no problem projecting production for Barkley, Galloway, Toney, etc.
However, the two sacred cows around here when it comes to expectations are DJ and LW.
God forbid we have any expectations for our franchise QB or for one of the highest paid defensive players in the league...
Basically, a J Allen year 3 leap. I will be going after him late in Fantasy drafts. I think I can steal a few leagues.
Basically, a J Allen year 3 leap. I will be going after him late in Fantasy drafts. I think I can steal a few leagues.
As long as the TD/INT ratio is in line with 2:1, and the fumbles are basically cut in half, that output should get us to the PPG needed to compete for a playoff spot.
I agree re: circumstances. On paper, we do have a very challenging out of conference road schedule...
Can you point to any posters who project production for some players but not others or is this just another made up scenario??
I'm still trying to figure out what it matters by fans giving projections. It literally means nothing. The better question is why are some of you stuck on demanding stat predictions for DJ?
Because that is happening on this thread by several posters. Not some happy horseshit about posters projecting stats for certain players and not others.
Then don't participate.
And why would you find it so unusual for fans to target a PPG threshold needed to gain a playoff spot, based on recent prior years, and then to project out where those points likely need to come from? Since the QB is the centerpiece of any NFL offense, it would seem logical to expect that position to create most of the points.
How about refraining from making shit up like this:
However, the two sacred cows around here when it comes to expectations are DJ and LW.
Who are these posters, and if they choose to "don't participate" shouldn't that be OK, or is it just more hypocrisy from the resident Hypocrite here?
Either agree with bw, or stop posting.
Discussing stats as a measure of a QB is so sensibility offending, we need this guy to bust through the wall and shut this shit down.
How about refraining from making shit up like this:
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What I find interesting are the posters who seem to have no problem projecting production for Barkley, Galloway, Toney, etc.
However, the two sacred cows around here when it comes to expectations are DJ and LW.
Who are these posters, and if they choose to "don't participate" shouldn't that be OK, or is it just more hypocrisy from the resident Hypocrite here?
I don't have any issue with those who choose not to participate. What I have an issue with is with those who are so aghast - like you, of course - with anyone would dare try to project production from our QB.
Just do a search and you will see plenty of posters who project what they expect from SB (if healthy), Golladay, etc.
And it’s a process. The Giants got (they hope) their QB in 2019 and addressed the OL in 2020. They also had what, at least on paper, looks like a great off-season this year in which they significantly upgraded the offensive skill positions with the addition of Golladay, Toney, Ross and Rudolph, who hopefully will combine with returning guys like Saquon, Shepard and Slaton to give the Giants what could be one of the most explosive groups in the league. They also upgraded at the corner (although I’d still like to see them add another 3-4 veteran CB) as well as improved (hopefully) the pass rush with the drafting of Ojulari and Elerson Smith and the FA signing of Odenigbo, although they still don’t have that dominating speed rusher. Indeed, everything else being equal, it is very likely the Giants go into the 2022 draft targeting another ER of some ilk with one of their 2 first round picks.
From a personnel perspective, the goal of 2021 will be to find out exactly what the Giants have in Jones at QB and up front on the OL. And the issue with Jones isn’t so much whether he’s a bust or not, but how good can he be! Because in order to get to your stated goal you really want your QB to have a pretty high ceiling. The sense I have is that the Giants feel that he has the physical tools as well as the mental makeup to be a good one. Now can he put it together and play the game at the speed at which the NFL game is played. If at the end of the year they figure he can’t – or can’t well enough – they are well positioned to try again at the position at next year’s draft. Same along the OL. I think they feel that the young guys they have the physical ability to play at the NFL level and it’s a prove it year. Again if they don’t they have the resources to re-address the situation in the 2022 draft. And even if they don’t have to, you’d like to see the Giants use a couple of those 7 first 4 round picks next April on the OL. In this day and age of free agency you are pretty much going to turn the bulk of your OL over every 5 years or so and you’d like to re-establish something of a pipeline of decent young OL coming in every year or so down the road.
In the meantime give that unfortunately the Giants haven't asked for my input I shall watch the season this fall because its why they play the games!
I know it assaults your sensabilities to actually challenge bw. I'll let others figure out why that is.
Should I come up with a meme for those astute posters who just fancy themselves as critical thinkers here, even though they are just the exact opposite of cheerleaders?
I'd say you're better than this but it's clear over the past few weeks you aren't.
Let me know which posters give expectations for certain players but not others.
Got a search function for that, Gauss?
I know it assaults your sensabilities to actually challenge bw. I'll let others figure out why that is.
Should I come up with a meme for those astute posters who just fancy themselves as critical thinkers here, even though they are just the exact opposite of cheerleaders?
I'd say you're better than this but it's clear over the past few weeks you aren't.
Oh come on red guy, what do you expect when you say something like:
After dissecting what the hell it was you're trying to convey, I think your point is discussing stats is shit?
If it means literally shit to you -- exactly what are you engaging? Seems like deep down maybe it doesn't mean literally shit to you and you love it.
Give in, add your thoughts. You know want to.
If the defense is playing well, the run game is killing it, and DJ isn't turning the ball over that's a helluva makeup for winning football. In the playoffs you need the QB to make the leap for production, of course this will be his first playoff start, so tempered expectations there. Some will say these are 'excuses'. I'll counter that with the fact that tons of guys, QB most of all, generally don't perform well in their first playoff experience. The examples of this are countless, in fact it's usually par for the course.
Same goes for LW as the centerpiece of the defense and interior disruptor. There's a fuck ton of stuff that he can do to earn his contract that doesn't show up on the stat sheet. As long as he stays healthy, and then you can really judge his importance. He gets hurt, our defense is going to take a step back, I can guarantee it.
Which is EXACTLY what I've been arguing on THIS thread. Then you call out people for being unwilling to put numbers on it.
I don't care what you've posted in the past. Today, you said it was reasonable to expect the stats to fall in line with the rest, which is all I've been saying.
Now you're switching back to putting actual numbers on it?
Huh? Saying the stats will follow and stating what I would expect are still aligned. This is what I expect would follow.
As mentioned, if you can’t take that simple step then you’re being protective for some reason. Are you?
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targets or expectations for Jones and/or the Offense? You read all the time on here that posters are fine being wrong with opinions and projections, so why all dug in on this one?
Unless of course they’re not really fine with it...
What I find interesting are the posters who seem to have no problem projecting production for Barkley, Galloway, Toney, etc.
However, the two sacred cows around here when it comes to expectations are DJ and LW.
God forbid we have any expectations for our franchise QB or for one of the highest paid defensive players in the league...
Totally agree. You and I both know why this is, people have dug in on these topics and can’t leave themselves exposed in any fashion. I prefer folks get off the fence and give an opinion. It can still be balanced and supported but say something worthy of being read and/or debated.
You and I are not really aligned on DJ, but I see what are saying. However, I am just beside myself at how that moron tried to rebuild this roster that I feel Jones needs more benefit of the doubt. Sticking a young QB into this crappy Offense is all on Gettleman. Jones may not be the guy, but i can live thru another year of him over DG...
How about refraining from making shit up like this:
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What I find interesting are the posters who seem to have no problem projecting production for Barkley, Galloway, Toney, etc.
However, the two sacred cows around here when it comes to expectations are DJ and LW.
Who are these posters, and if they choose to "don't participate" shouldn't that be OK, or is it just more hypocrisy from the resident Hypocrite here?
Hypocrisy! Your new favorite term in berating posters.
I miss the days that when you used to use Contrarian, Pithy, Ponderous, Fukstick in your daily rants. Until you were embarrassed enough by posters who made enough fun of you being such a chucklehead that you stopped using them.
I do like the Kool-Aid man reference Christian seems to be using lately though. Seems appropriate...don’t you think?
Why do I have to set an arbitrary stat line? It’s worthless.
Here are two 2020 QB’s:
QB1: 4300 yards 31 TD’s 10 INT’s 98 QBR
QB2: 3500 yards 26 TD’s 8 INT’s 96 QBR
Which one do you think had a more successful season?
It’s not even a trick question. Herbert was 7-9 and Mayfield was 11-5 and made the playoffs. Which season would you rather Jones have?
That is why it is arbitrary. This isn’t fantasy football where individual stats generate points (which is where all this is rooted btw), nor is it moneyball.
Football is, was, and always will be the ultimate TEAM game and individual stats will never matter as much as a collective team/unit achieving a common goal.
I want to see a time constrained game winning drive.
I want to see costly errors corrected by cool under fire on point play.
I want to see a battle where our qb holds it together despite sudden and bad ol plays.
I want to see creative successes from.broken plays.
I dont care about stats as much as seeing difference making leadership. I want to see football players following a guy they think can win.
The ratio is the key. I’d argue a fair floor is a 3:2 TD to turnover ratio.
But realistically, if you’re going to get close to 6K total yards and be a top half offense, the QB is going to need to put up yards in the air. Somewhere between 3,500 - 4K. That’s with a top 10 or better run game.
We actually agree far more on things than we don’t. You may not see it the same but I tend to.
And I also think we both know an opinion or prediction should be worth more than just being arbitrary or worthless. It’s an expression of how you think and what you know, and sometimes what you don’t. And just the way you describe it above leads me to believe you aren’t willing to take that step for some reason.
You can tell us why, or not.
I’m tired of arguing individual performances. Just win and contribute. Whether that looks like Jones throwing 40 TD’s or 25 TD’s makes no difference to me.
I know it was a different time...but football has not changed as much as you would like to believe.
The QB position is about leadership and when it really matters, turning nothing into something.
This isn't baseball, you can't measure leadership by reading the stat lines on Monday morning.
IMV, you cannot evaluate the value of a teammate by year end statistics.
The Giants have improved the team. Jones knows he has to perform and there are expectations. Let’s see how he handles that stress and responding well to it gives hope he can win the really big games one day. You either have it or don’t.
Why do I have to set an arbitrary stat line? It’s worthless.
Here are two 2020 QB’s:
QB1: 4300 yards 31 TD’s 10 INT’s 98 QBR
QB2: 3500 yards 26 TD’s 8 INT’s 96 QBR
Which one do you think had a more successful season?
It’s not even a trick question. Herbert was 7-9 and Mayfield was 11-5 and made the playoffs. Which season would you rather Jones have?
Just to clarify - those aren't QBRs. Those are traditional passer ratings. Mayfield's QBR was 72 and Herbert's was 70.
As you know, Herbert was a rookie. So I would say he had a pretty successful season.
The fantasy comment is really unnecessary. Yes, football is a team game where both sides of the ball have to do their part to generate a winning record. But the NFL has morphed into an offensive league as PPG continue to increase YoY. Last year was the highest average PPG per team in the history of the NFL at nearly 25.
So that's the most common recipe to win, and a lot of that burden falls on the QB.
If the Giants win and Jones is a game managing passenger — that’s awesome. I’ll hope the Giants done extend him.
One inconvenient big change, the Giants were 8th in scoring in 1986 at 23.2 PPG, which would have put them in 20s last year.
I’m tired of arguing individual performances. Just win and contribute. Whether that looks like Jones throwing 40 TD’s or 25 TD’s makes no difference to me.
Haha. We both know that isn’t true either. You never shy from a good argument...in fact you create threads underpinning them...
I know it was a different time...but football has not changed as much as you would like to believe.
The QB position is about leadership and when it really matters, turning nothing into something.
This isn't baseball, you can't measure leadership by reading the stat lines on Monday morning.
IMV, you cannot evaluate the value of a teammate by year end statistics.
Football has changed a great deal since then. Power and strength has been overtaken by speed, athleticism and efficiency. Not replaced fully but overtaken...
The ratio is the key. I’d argue a fair floor is a 3:2 TD to turnover ratio.
I don't know here. Even if you throw out a statistical outlier like that freak AaRod, most of the playoff QBs have a 3+:1 TD/INT ratio. Just some incredible performances by top QBs.
Hell, I was hoping that DJ could get to 2:1. Because 3:1 is a big jump. Although Allen had a big jump going 3.7:1.
That's why I try to use TDs needed by the QB to impact that overall PPG average.
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...threw for 3400 something and had more INTs than TDs in 1986.
I know it was a different time...but football has not changed as much as you would like to believe.
The QB position is about leadership and when it really matters, turning nothing into something.
This isn't baseball, you can't measure leadership by reading the stat lines on Monday morning.
IMV, you cannot evaluate the value of a teammate by year end statistics.
Football has changed a great deal since then. Power and strength has been overtaken by speed, athleticism and efficiency. Not replaced fully but overtaken...
This is a huge fall for him. I thought he showed a lot his rookie season, but took a step back last year. Year 3...this is when we're going to know if he's the guy going forward.
As for the Eli comps, one huge difference: the rookie contract scale. I believe Eli signed a 6 or 7 year deal as a rookie; Jones signed a 4 year deal with a option for a 5th year. Those are big differences. Also, I think the Giants-JJ in particular whether he admits it or not-are hedging their bets with DJ, especially after that Bears trade. We now got 2 1st next spring so if DJ flops in '21, I think we're in prime position to snag a new QB.
Everything else is along for the ride...
If we were asked “what do you expect out of Saquon Barkley” this year, and the answer was:
- a couple of leading changing late scores
- a game winning play in a game the line wasn’t play well
- teammates who believe he’s a winner
I suspect the prevailing opinion would be — sure, plus 1300 yards rushing and 10 TDs.
This is a huge fall for him. I thought he showed a lot his rookie season, but took a step back last year. Year 3...this is when we're going to know if he's the guy going forward.
As for the Eli comps, one huge difference: the rookie contract scale. I believe Eli signed a 6 or 7 year deal as a rookie; Jones signed a 4 year deal with a option for a 5th year. Those are big differences. Also, I think the Giants-JJ in particular whether he admits it or not-are hedging their bets with DJ, especially after that Bears trade. We now got 2 1st next spring so if DJ flops in '21, I think we're in prime position to snag a new QB.
This is a 100% accurate post.
Additionally, we’ve added weapons in the passing game, including a hybrid run/pass option in Toney, not to mention Jones can run it too. The
Offense no longer has to go solely through him. We don’t know what that looks like yet.
Does the algorithm take that into account?
Christian my example above is exactly why Bill2 is right.
Statistics are arbitrary...wins and losses are not.
Nothing in the world Wrong with the conversation discussing hopeful statistics, expected statistics.
And I'm quite sure I have overstepped my place when it comes to giving people, especially bw, a hard time about this.
That said statistics do not determine the value of a quarterback. He is the 1 person on the football team that the coach needs To stand above the rest as a leader.
He is counted on To be the guy that makes everyone else believe.
He's in charge of controlling the game.
And what matters more?
That's just not reality though. It's not about running, it's not about defense. It's about throwing the ball to score points. There are a couple exceptions that are player and scheme based: Baltimore, Cleveland, Tennessee stand out.
But the Giants aren't built that way. They don't have the OC or personnel to deliver that type of scheme.
They've got to throw the ball a lot, IMO, from outside the pocket and using RPOs. And I would try to get Golladay 150+ targets. I would want the offense to flow through him and Engram.
No, it does matter. Today it matters that he can make it happen with all of the above during the season. That is what is expected when you are taken at the top of a draft at QB.
First round QBs may bust,..but the expectations remain the same.
They've got to throw the ball a lot, IMO, from outside the pocket and using RPOs. And I would try to get Golladay 150+ targets. I would want the offense to flow through him and Engram.
Did you see what Meyer is doing with Etienne, btw? Looks like they are going to make him a hybrid WR-RB. I remember Elliott did this a few times a game with Etienne when he was at Clemson. And Etienne was pretty damn good at it...
And what matters more?
Again, if the offense is truly better, then Barkley should have no issues reaching these figures while still winning.
Reaching for them while losing is the wrong offense.
Are you following me?
You following?
The better stats DJ has the more red marbles he's putting into that jar.
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They've got to throw the ball a lot, IMO, from outside the pocket and using RPOs. And I would try to get Golladay 150+ targets. I would want the offense to flow through him and Engram.
Did you see what Meyer is doing with Etienne, btw? Looks like they are going to make him a hybrid WR-RB. I remember Elliott did this a few times a game with Etienne when he was at Clemson. And Etienne was pretty damn good at it...
I like it. Get the ball to your fast guys while they're running in space.
Basketball on grass.
And with that, Much of this argument is semantic.
Joe Judge has likely not placed numbers on what he wants DJ to accomplish.
That is how I try and view the game.
I look at the stats and I enjoy Trying to figure out what they mean. After a game I check them out to see what they look like. If they are less than or greater than pedestrian I'm interested as to why... Though, what I saw on the field and what the coaching staff will see Over and over and over again before Tuesday of the following week Is what I would use as a barometer.
I thought it was about setting measurements that delineated good from bad.
Something as simple as the percentage of TDs per attempt, and turnovers per touch get you a good sense of the primary starters who will have a few or below .500 records each year.
If we were asked “what do you expect out of Saquon Barkley” this year, and the answer was:
- a couple of leading changing late scores
- a game winning play in a game the line wasn’t play well
- teammates who believe he’s a winner
I suspect the prevailing opinion would be — sure, plus 1300 yards rushing and 10 TDs.
Because with all the hoopla around passing, the game still is about stopping the run. If a defensive coordinator is getting gashed for 6 or 7 yards a clip he’s going to do everything in his power (throw resources into it) to stop it. Couple reasons for that.
1 - if you are getting gashed in the air, it only takes one play (interception/sack fumble) or a few miscues by the offense in a row to get off the field. When you run the ball like that, you essentially take turnover risk off the table.
2 - it’s absolutely demoralizing and exhausting for a defense to stop the run. This pays big dividends in the 4th.
I really can give a shit about total yardage because it’s a garbage star dependent on what type of offense you run. The best three metrics in my mind are yards per play, total TD to TO ratio, and red zone scoring percentage. You finish type 5 in those and you are looking at a high seed in the playoffs. Paired with a competent D probably a bye.
How does that affect offensive team statistics, let alone individual?
Because with all the hoopla around passing, the game still is about stopping the run.
I don't buy this as much. To me, it's about redzone defense. Holding teams to FG attempts vs TDs. Per the rules, most teams can run up and down the field between the 20s. Once inside the 20s, the outcome of games really changes.
Balance.
1. Saints - 2.9
2. Green Bay - 2.9
3. Tenn - 2.9
4. Minn - 2.6
5. Tampa - 2.5
6. Buff - 2.5
7. Seattle - 2.5
8. Cleve - 2.4
9. Zona - 2.4
10. 9ers - 2.3
11. KC - 2.3
I do expect the RB/OL unit to contribute to the point of being a dependable and more flexible part of the offense ( able to contribute winning plays in a variety of circumstances).
There was once a pass that went about 18 yards to the center of the field and the data records it as a 18 yard pass.
Had a high arc, was a little slow and was possibly overthrown or maybe thrown to the only place our receiver could catch it with the least chance of an interception.
So statistically its a remarkably unremarkable for a pass from an NFL QB.
Is it a play you evaluate from your minds eye or a stat sheet?
Happened in 2007.
In 2021, I want to see our current QB show he can often enough elevate the team to some un-expected victories and some plays to unexpected successes.
I also want to see less bone headed plays and poor risk assessment plays (with all due respect to what Farve could do...his Kamikaze style was not what I hope for the NYG).
The annual stats are too often a by-product of an offense and injuries and unskilled skill players. Above and beyond individual contributors eventually can often be placed in better circumstances and it will pay off. A guy who cant elevate his play (s) when it makes a difference causes very expensive pulls on a cap constrained team and it rarely pays off.
imo
.
Absolute nonsense.
Barkley was the 2 overall pick yet somehow your logic is to blame it on the 6th overall pick should be a terror vs excusing the injury prone 2nd overall pick.
Mind-boggling and ridiculous.
In 2021, I want to see our current QB show he can often enough elevate the team to some un-expected victories and some plays to unexpected successes.
Spot on - this should be everyone's expectation of Jones.
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In 2021, I want to see our current QB show he can often enough elevate the team to some un-expected victories and some plays to unexpected successes.
Spot on - this should be everyone's expectation of Jones.
This is also my expectation of Jones.
You following?
If others go up, his won’t have to come down much, if any...
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In comment 15272396 Bill2 said:
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In 2021, I want to see our current QB show he can often enough elevate the team to some un-expected victories and some plays to unexpected successes.
Spot on - this should be everyone's expectation of Jones.
This is also my expectation of Jones.
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other players’ go up in a winning effort, that’s good.
You following?
If others go up, his won’t have to come down much, if any...
Unless the defenses are devoting resources to stopping him, thus thining out other areas of their defense creating opportunities for other players on offense.
And with that, Much of this argument is semantic.
Joe Judge has likely not placed numbers on what he wants DJ to accomplish.
That is how I try and view the game.
I look at the stats and I enjoy Trying to figure out what they mean. After a game I check them out to see what they look like. If they are less than or greater than pedestrian I'm interested as to why... Though, what I saw on the field and what the coaching staff will see Over and over and over again before Tuesday of the following week Is what I would use as a barometer.
But that's the thing, making plays is going to naturally add to statistics.
Look, it wasn't that long ago that analytics was looked down upon by the majority of baseball and baseball fans. Nerds with spreadsheets. Now all 30 teams are invested in them, and with the advent of statcast the players are all in too.
The effect that's had on the quality if the game is a different discussion, but the NHL, NBA, and NFL have all been heading in the same analytical direction. Do I think JJ has given DJ hard numbers he needs to hit? No. But if DJ puts up good numbers then odds are high that the Giants are winning. Likewise DJ having bad statistics likely means the Giants are not doing so well
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Because with all the hoopla around passing, the game still is about stopping the run.
I don't buy this as much. To me, it's about redzone defense. Holding teams to FG attempts vs TDs. Per the rules, most teams can run up and down the field between the 20s. Once inside the 20s, the outcome of games really changes.
Teams that don’t stop the run suck in the red zone because they can’t stop the run.
I mean you can just go ask any defensive coordinator on any football team. Playing the run defensively is much more tiring on your front 7. Even on a micro level, if a team is giving up 6 or 7 yards a clip on the ground and they match down the field it’s going to be awfully hard to flip the switch to stop it.
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Zeke — you’re making a number of broad assumptions there, out of curiosity any data to back that up?
I mean you can just go ask any defensive coordinator on any football team. Playing the run defensively is much more tiring on your front 7. Even on a micro level, if a team is giving up 6 or 7 yards a clip on the ground and they match down the field it’s going to be awfully hard to flip the switch to stop it.
See Baltimore.
The team ran for a franchise-record 404 yards in its 38-3 win over the Cincinnati Bengals on Sunday and finished the regular season with 3,071 yards. The effort came just 23 yards short of breaking the league’s all-time single-game mark of 426, set by the Detroit Lions in 1934, but the Ravens became one of just four teams since 1950 to rush for 400 yards in a game.
Ravens want to ‘take another step’ after historic 404-yard rushing performance in win over Bengals - ( New Window )
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Zeke — you’re making a number of broad assumptions there, out of curiosity any data to back that up?
I mean you can just go ask any defensive coordinator on any football team. Playing the run defensively is much more tiring on your front 7. Even on a micro level, if a team is giving up 6 or 7 yards a clip on the ground and they match down the field it’s going to be awfully hard to flip the switch to stop it.
Just curious if that’s fact based or your assumption.
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In comment 15272337 Britt in VA said:
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other players’ go up in a winning effort, that’s good.
You following?
If others go up, his won’t have to come down much, if any...
Unless the defenses are devoting resources to stopping him, thus thining out other areas of their defense creating opportunities for other players on offense.
If the offense is working correctly, Barkley shouldn’t be such a concentrated running target, especially early. He should be a threat to get the ball in any number of ways, just like several other guys.
Jackson has two advantages on Barkley:
1. He's a better open field runner
2. He gets to run from the QB position
In Barkley's rookie year an average play to him (rush or pass attempt) gained 5.3 yards...that is less than the league average play of 5.6 yards that season. Zeke's Alibi...if you think yards/play is an important stat (and I agree with you), think about that.
Compare that to Lamar Jackson's career average rush: 6.0 YPC. There is no comparison between the two players; bringing Baltimore up as an example is nice...but it's not applicable to the Giants in any way.
And that's if Barkley is completely healthy in 2021. I kind of agree with Bill2 - I think signs point to him not being much of a factor in 2021, and 2022 possibly being his last year here.
No, we are not Baltimore, but I'm sure they are developing their own system where they are a threat to run on nearly every play between Barkley/Jones/Toney and making defenses respect that. Which in and of itself will open up the passing game for all of the weapons there.
Baltimore has Lamar Jackson
Go Terps : 5/25/2021 11:15 pm : link : reply
We don't have anyone in his universe.
As a runner, agreed. As a passer, we have Clayton Thorson
While it is easier to pass the ball in the last ten years the game still is about physicality. You can pass your way to division titles and some advancement in the playoffs but the majority of times if you can't run the ball or stop it you are going to go home early. Good teams will take away what you do well and you better be balanced to overcome it.
"His 71 total missed tackles forced as a runner and receiver in 2018 were 11 more than any other running back. He was every bit as advertised during that rookie season — a year where he supplemented those broken tackle numbers with over 3.3 rushing yards after contact per attempt and 8.6 yards after the catch per reception."
So if he averaged 3.3 yards after contact that means 2/3 of his entire yardage on the ground came after being hit. Kind of a factor, no? As for the catches, it means he took many passes behind the LOS.
In sum, he can only do what the OC dictates and if he isn't lined up as a passer that isn't on him. Blame the play designs not the player, I don't know what more Barkley could have done.
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Baltimore has Lamar Jackson
Go Terps : 5/25/2021 11:15 pm : link : reply
We don't have anyone in his universe.
As a runner, agreed. As a passer, we have Clayton Thorson
Idiotic.
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Baltimore has Lamar Jackson
Go Terps : 5/25/2021 11:15 pm : link : reply
We don't have anyone in his universe.
As a runner, agreed. As a passer, we have Clayton Thorson
Idiotic.
no, this is idiotic:
Jackson has two advantages on Barkley:
1. He's a better open field runner
why would that be idiotic? Is the idea going to be floated here that Jackson is a good passer of the ball? I mean, he's already the best RB in the history of the NFL, so why not add passer to that usual exaggeration?
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In comment 15272382 christian said:
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Zeke — you’re making a number of broad assumptions there, out of curiosity any data to back that up?
I mean you can just go ask any defensive coordinator on any football team. Playing the run defensively is much more tiring on your front 7. Even on a micro level, if a team is giving up 6 or 7 yards a clip on the ground and they match down the field it’s going to be awfully hard to flip the switch to stop it.
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The best three metrics in my mind are yards per play, total TD to TO ratio, and red zone scoring percentage. You finish type 5 in those and you are looking at a high seed in the playoffs. Paired with a competent D probably a bye.
Just curious if that’s fact based or your assumption.
The stats thing is an assumption, but one I’m fairly certain about. I’m not sure how a team is bad in NFL if you are killing those three metrics. If you have an example of one I’m all ears.
As far as the running the ball thing, it’s just what is considered common football knowledge, and decades of watching the game. When a team runs the ball 10 times for 60 yards down the field, good luck stopping them in red zone. See plenty of teams throw the ball down there stall out.
While it is easier to pass the ball in the last ten years the game still is about physicality. You can pass your way to division titles and some advancement in the playoffs but the majority of times if you can't run the ball or stop it you are going to go home early. Good teams will take away what you do well and you better be balanced to overcome it.
The two most prolific running attacks in the NFL the last few years have been the Ravens and Titans. And neither could advance beyond a certain point because they just couldn't score enough points by running.
So your theory about running the ball is very wobbly.
Look, I grew up on power/smash mouth football. I miss it dearly. But those concepts are relics. It's pass first, try to be efficient at running, and have an opportunistic defense that is stingy inside the red-zone.
There's about 3 or 4 QB's in the league who are going to regularly have success without being able to run the ball. Tannehill and Jackson aren't among them.
So for the other 25+ teams, being able to run will help and its up to the QB's to take advantage of that, or occasionally overcome a bad day running the ball.
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While it is easier to pass the ball in the last ten years the game still is about physicality. You can pass your way to division titles and some advancement in the playoffs but the majority of times if you can't run the ball or stop it you are going to go home early. Good teams will take away what you do well and you better be balanced to overcome it.
The two most prolific running attacks in the NFL the last few years have been the Ravens and Titans. And neither could advance beyond a certain point because they just couldn't score enough points by running.
So your theory about running the ball is very wobbly.
Look, I grew up on power/smash mouth football. I miss it dearly. But those concepts are relics. It's pass first, try to be efficient at running, and have an opportunistic defense that is stingy inside the red-zone.
This is a stupid debate. You need to great at some things and at least adequate at everything else. Find me one team that one a super bowl that was terrible at stopping the run and terrible at running the ball. There isn't one. There are teams that sucked at this throughout the season but then tightened shit up in the postseason, the 2006 Colts come to mind, but you aint winning shit in this league if you are soft at running and stopping the run.
The Ravens and Titans have been knocking on the door the last few years. But they cannot win one more game? Sure they can.
I know it's a very simple point and many won't agree, but I think this whole regular season vs postseason thing is overblown. It's the same game in January as in September. It's just tougher competition. If you can win in October against an elite team, you can win in January as well.
You need a QB that can block out the noise and make plays in the biggest of spots. Some QBs are great all the time. Others are up and down but can beat good or great defenses and seem to have the clutch gene. Those guys are almost impossible to truly identify until that moment arrives. How does anyone know if their QB who went 4400, 28 and 17 and won 11 games is truly a magical postseason player? Not until it happens does anyone know. And they can fail 2-3-4 times before they do break through. Then you have the prolific studs who never win a thing. You know don't know, until it's too late.
And if we utilize all three of those, it's going to open up a TON of options both on the ground, and in the air.
If you are going to talk about how the league is evolving than it would be unfair to not discuss how the running game has also evolved.
This is a stupid debate. You need to great at some things and at least adequate at everything else. Find me one team that one a super bowl that was terrible at stopping the run and terrible at running the ball. There isn't one. There are teams that sucked at this throughout the season but then tightened shit up in the postseason, the 2006 Colts come to mind, but you aint winning shit in this league if you are soft at running and stopping the run.
Where did I say you should abandon the run or not care about it on offense? I haven't. It's important, but it's just not the prime ingredient in the recipe to winning games/championships. Passing is.
Great. Let's stop the run on D. But winning on D will still come down to this - red-zone effectiveness. And forcing the other teams to kick FGs instead of scoring TDs.
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This is a stupid debate. You need to great at some things and at least adequate at everything else. Find me one team that one a super bowl that was terrible at stopping the run and terrible at running the ball. There isn't one. There are teams that sucked at this throughout the season but then tightened shit up in the postseason, the 2006 Colts come to mind, but you aint winning shit in this league if you are soft at running and stopping the run.
Where did I say you should abandon the run or not care about it on offense? I haven't. It's important, but it's just not the prime ingredient in the recipe to winning games/championships. Passing is.
Great. Let's stop the run on D. But winning on D will still come down to this - red-zone effectiveness. And forcing the other teams to kick FGs instead of scoring TDs.
Isn't taking away the run in the red zone and forcing them to be one dimensional part of red zone effectiveness? Or do you only stop the run between the 20's?
So why did those teams win 11-14 games while the Giants only won 6?
So why did those teams win 11-14 games while the Giants only won 6?
1. Daniel Jones didn't play well enough
2. Part of #1 is because our skill position players stunk
3. Take a look at the y/touch for Gallman and Morris (the exact argument you kill Barkley for) and let me know what you find.
4. Engram cost us 2 games
5. Are we really doing this again?
And yeah the guys playing in the conference finals are 4 of the top 6 guys in the league, no shit we need better QB play.
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While it is easier to pass the ball in the last ten years the game still is about physicality. You can pass your way to division titles and some advancement in the playoffs but the majority of times if you can't run the ball or stop it you are going to go home early. Good teams will take away what you do well and you better be balanced to overcome it.
The two most prolific running attacks in the NFL the last few years have been the Ravens and Titans. And neither could advance beyond a certain point because they just couldn't score enough points by running.
So your theory about running the ball is very wobbly.
Look, I grew up on power/smash mouth football. I miss it dearly. But those concepts are relics. It's pass first, try to be efficient at running, and have an opportunistic defense that is stingy inside the red-zone.
There is nothing wobbly about it. I said look at the playoffs and the teams ability to run. Pass happy teams who can't run often go home early. I preach being able to run and pass and they work together. You seem to be a studier of stats.
If you are going to throw out passing stats be sure to look at the teams ability to run the ball. In this case you made mention of teams scoring in the red zone. Look at where those teams were running the ball. Most were top 12 in rushing. Why is that important? Defenses have to defend differently in the red zone. They have to respect the run. They are vulnerable to play action. You post a stat. I see beyond. That is the difference.
Nobody seems to be suggesting that running the ball or stopping the run are not reasonably important parts of the game, and at times even critical. However, the Passing game has just simply become far more important overall to team success. An average running game, as long as efficient in terms of yards/carry and being able to operate play-action is sufficient.
Did 2/3 of Gallman's yards come after contact? If so i'll eat my hat.
Odd that a 300 yard reduction is called similar and a "troubling" sign, but then again that's the hyperbole needed to continue the narrative that Barkley just isn't effective, ain't it?
Now the Giants have added three targets to the passing arsenal. I am skeptical on Jones but with Barkley back, improvement in the OL and added WR's I think there is at least potential this offense shows significant improvement. Let's see how it plays out but at least defenses have significantly more to worry about.
Isn't taking away the run in the red zone and forcing them to be one dimensional part of red zone effectiveness? Or do you only stop the run between the 20's?
Of course it is. Let's stop them well before the scoring zone and force teams to punt. Count me in.
I really like our D and expect it to be even better in year two under Graham. So I'm looking forward to big things. But, IMV, they still need to be good at that "bend-but-don't-break" BB principle and force more FG attempts. Because the majority of teams will be able to move the ball inside the 20s.
Did 2/3 of Gallman's yards come after contact? If so i'll eat my hat.
Is that a straw hat? Leather hat, denim, corduroy? C'mon Uconn, details, details!
There is nothing wobbly about it. I said look at the playoffs and the teams ability to run. Pass happy teams who can't run often go home early. I preach being able to run and pass and they work together. You seem to be a studier of stats.
If you are going to throw out passing stats be sure to look at the teams ability to run the ball. In this case you made mention of teams scoring in the red zone. Look at where those teams were running the ball. Most were top 12 in rushing. Why is that important? Defenses have to defend differently in the red zone. They have to respect the run. They are vulnerable to play action. You post a stat. I see beyond. That is the difference.
I'm not disputing the ability and need to run effectively. I love it. But the trends dictate that passing is the primary way to score points - both in the regular season and in the playoffs.
So this isn't about being one dimensional and "pass happy". It's about understanding what is the best way to win in today's NFL. And passing is the ticket to success.
I'm being rhetorical here - but why do you think we went out and added more air support for Jones?
So we went out and got air support for Jones because passing is the way to win?? How about because our receiver group was poor. Why did we sign a RB? Why did we draft a RB? Isn't that kind of contradictory?
Why have we put resources into the OL, LB and DB's the past few years? To improve those position groups that have been poor. We're improving the team - not adding players just to join a NFL trend.
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There is nothing wobbly about it. I said look at the playoffs and the teams ability to run. Pass happy teams who can't run often go home early. I preach being able to run and pass and they work together. You seem to be a studier of stats.
If you are going to throw out passing stats be sure to look at the teams ability to run the ball. In this case you made mention of teams scoring in the red zone. Look at where those teams were running the ball. Most were top 12 in rushing. Why is that important? Defenses have to defend differently in the red zone. They have to respect the run. They are vulnerable to play action. You post a stat. I see beyond. That is the difference.
I'm not disputing the ability and need to run effectively. I love it. But the trends dictate that passing is the primary way to score points - both in the regular season and in the playoffs.
So this isn't about being one dimensional and "pass happy". It's about understanding what is the best way to win in today's NFL. And passing is the ticket to success.
I'm being rhetorical here - but why do you think we went out and added more air support for Jones?
I never said passing is not important. What I believe is that you have to be able to do both well. If you can't you will be exposed at some point. History has very few teams who were one dimensional that have won championships.
They, Leftwich and Arians, got trashed by the “experts” in the last third of the season for trying to establish the run. Came up huge in playoffs.
Over the previous 5 seasons, there have been 61 playoff teams. This is what a playoff team looks like, by production, run vs. pass.
2016 - 2020
Average Passing Yards: 3881
Average Passing TDs: 29
Average Rushing Yards: 1978
Average Rushing TDs: 16
Pro-Rated 17 Game Season
Average Passing Yards: 4123
Average Passing TDs: 31
Average Rushing Yards: 2101
Average Rushing TDs: 17
Prominent Outliers
- Only 4 teams have made the playoffs with fewer than 30 offensive TDs
- Only 2 teams have made the playoffs with more rush yards than pass yards
Observations
- In the three years Barkley has been a Giant, they have not hit the playoff averages in rush yards or rush TDs. The Giants need to run the ball better to be in "normal" playoff contention, let alone run-first.
- The 2:1 pass to rush yards and 2ish:1 pass to rush TDs, feels about right to me
- I suspect the attrition of a 17 game season will impact defenses more, and the true offensive average production will be higher
- The Giants offense needs to improve in both facets to be a "playoff" type team
They, Leftwich and Arians, got trashed by the “experts” in the last third of the season for trying to establish the run. Came up huge in playoffs.
Great point. Arians learned from the Bear well.
Its bizarre. Gallman was nearly there too, just 900+ more to go!
No one is saying this is a running league, we are saying they work in tandem and teams without elite QB's need significant help from the running game. When people post how often the elite QB's win all it proves is that I wish we had an elite QB.
But alas, we don't and no one is disputing that. Instead we are thinking of how Jones can excel more easily with a good running game and improved weapons. Why that sparks this much debate is beyond me. This is pretty straight forward.
Not only that but 1,700 is almost 2,000!!
I'd love posters to realize a 15% reduction in salary and see how many think that's almost what they're making now
This was in the 80's.
Interesting that playoff teams today are still around that 400 yard total. The majority rush for over 120 ypg with some outliers. So passing totals are a little higher but not nearly as dramatic as some tend to believe.
Giants need to add at least 75 yard to total production per game. I think we see it average out to 250 passing and 130 rypg which with their defense will win a lot of games.
Thanks. Another interesting angle -- the 2020 Giants were 90% of the way to playoff average in rush yards, and 78% in pass yards.
So I should amend my observation, the Giants have a lot of work in the pass game, and less in the run game.
I know that's now taboo around here making individual player predictions. But I find it useful nonetheless... ;)
I know that's now taboo around here making individual player predictions. But I find it useful nonetheless... ;)
Did you do it to validate the 30TD mark that you've been posting about as far back as the end of last year to match the math you did in the past month, Archimedes?
I also like Uconn's information indicating how often Barkley wasn't getting even adequate run blocking and still put up a monster rookie year.
So we went out and got air support for Jones because passing is the way to win?? How about because our receiver group was poor. Why did we sign a RB? Why did we draft a RB? Isn't that kind of contradictory?
Why have we put resources into the OL, LB and DB's the past few years? To improve those position groups that have been poor. We're improving the team - not adding players just to join a NFL trend.
Both are true - we needed better receivers and having better receivers is the ticket to more points (if Jones is better). Not sure why this is confusing.
We got another RB because we need more depth at the position. I mean, that's pretty straightforward, especially as insurance if SB isn't completely ready to resume his full role.
Frankly, I'm not sure you how you missed it, but your hero Gettleman, and even Mara at the State of the Union, specifically said that Jones needed more weapons. And that was essentially THE PLAN for this offseason.
Has anyone suggested running the ball isn't important?
I believe you live near Tampa? If so, ask the Bucs what was more important - running the ball effectively or have one of the greatest QBs to replace Winston.
Maybe you can break it down in math terms, Fibonacci.
I know that's now taboo around here making individual player predictions. But I find it useful nonetheless... ;)
Me too!
I think a fair observation is (and backed up by the team's actions in the draft, and free agency):
- Even without Barkley, the Giants were much closer to a playoff type rush offense than pass offense
- If you add 12 healthy games of Barkley to the mix next year, they should get there
- The Giants had a big gap between where they were and where they needed to go in the pass game, and invested heavily there
Maybe you can break it down in math terms, Fibonacci.
You don't think Mr. Analytics doesn't know this?
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Important.
Has anyone suggested running the ball isn't important?
I believe you live near Tampa? If so, ask the Bucs what was more important - running the ball effectively or have one of the greatest QBs to replace Winston.
Just because Brady was an elite QB doesn't mean he is anymore. Lots of QBs could have won with that roster and coaching staff, just absolutely stacked. Possibly the best roster in football last year. Then they got pretty lucky on when they were playing teams (something Parcells says is as important as who you play). Winston was holding them back because he was a turnover machine.
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I'm being rhetorical here - but why do you think we went out and added more air support for Jones?
So we went out and got air support for Jones because passing is the way to win?? How about because our receiver group was poor. Why did we sign a RB? Why did we draft a RB? Isn't that kind of contradictory?
Why have we put resources into the OL, LB and DB's the past few years? To improve those position groups that have been poor. We're improving the team - not adding players just to join a NFL trend.
It's almost like football is a team sport and it's about the best 53 and not individual players. This keeps you fluid and multiple. In a game of matchups, this is the key to consistent success.
It's why I'm excited the most I've been years about this team, best back end of the roster I remember in a long time, which in a war of attrition (17 games this year as well) is vital.
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I'm being rhetorical here - but why do you think we went out and added more air support for Jones?
So we went out and got air support for Jones because passing is the way to win??.
Yes.
Did you think it was a coincidence?
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Important.
Has anyone suggested running the ball isn't important?
I believe you live near Tampa? If so, ask the Bucs what was more important - running the ball effectively or have one of the greatest QBs to replace Winston.
Yes, some people are doing everything they can to negate its importance. And like I said earlier, do this exercise without the top MVP level QBs because that’s the discussion we should be having.
No one on planet earth is comparing Jones to Brady or Rodgers or Mahomes so we shouldn’t be using them as examples in his exercise. His peers are the other 25 guys trying to figure out how to play well enough to win games and make the playoffs. And a big part of that is how they work off of the run game.
Judge and Garrett need to see Barkley in a similar way vis a vis Booker. I felt like Shurmur missed this point completely and severely limited Barkley's value by having him block or taking him out on third down plays because of his inability to do so. Barkley should line up all over the field and always be one of the top go to options.
I think this is the reason why there is so much heated debate regarding Barkley's value. If you look at him like James Robinson, then he was undoubtedly a reach in the 2018 draft. But if you look at him and deploy him as a hybrid of Barry Sanders and Chase Claypool, then the value makes more sense.
2021 Barkley with Galloday, Shep, Slayton, Rudolph, Toney.
The key to the offense will be winning first down more consistently. If they do that Jones and the offense have a chance.
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I'm being rhetorical here - but why do you think we went out and added more air support for Jones?
So we went out and got air support for Jones because passing is the way to win??.
Yes.
Did you think it was a coincidence?
Not coincidence, Jimmy Clownshoes. As clearly stated, it was to better a position group that was poor. read Zeke's post above.
The argumentation is all over the place. First we signed these guys to eliminate the excuses (the excuses that DJ doesn't even make). Then we traded with the Bears to give ourselves insurance in case Jones has a bad year. We even heard some happy horseshit about Judge being in a win-win situation where he can gain more control over the team if we play badly.
Then we did it to hit a magical 30TD passing number - derived from some intensive math work from Pascal (Even though just two years ago, only 4 QB's had 30+ TD's). I'm still waiting for von Neumann to modify that complex algorithm to take into account what happens if Barkley gets 10+ TD's again.
It isn't coincidence to sign offensive players, it is to improve a group that was one of the worst in the league last season.
The argumentation is all over the place - because it is just people looking to drum up the daily argument to list the reasons why Jones sucks.
It is rather shocking that there are some who do not get that SB is more than a RB, an absolute double threat when healthy. Give him a reasonably good OL and he’d be extremely difficult to defense, imv..Extremely.
Judge and Garrett need to see Barkley in a similar way vis a vis Booker. I felt like Shurmur missed this point completely and severely limited Barkley's value by having him block or taking him out on third down plays because of his inability to do so. Barkley should line up all over the field and always be one of the top go to options.
I think this is the reason why there is so much heated debate regarding Barkley's value. If you look at him like James Robinson, then he was undoubtedly a reach in the 2018 draft. But if you look at him and deploy him as a hybrid of Barry Sanders and Chase Claypool, then the value makes more sense.
Nice job Mike. Clear as day, imv..Oh well..
What’s confusing you so much with all the posters you love to hate?
What’s confusing you so much with all the posters you love to hate?
Arguing for the sake of arguing?? This is just the latest iteration of the Jones sucks threads. That's not on me - that's a completely different group of posters who repeat the same things daily.
What's confusing me is the continued need to define what stats will define success. How many passing TD's are needed. What a player drafted in the 6th slot has to produce.
Why is there a continued call to have 30TD passes or else Jones is failing? Why is there a continued ask of BBI posters to list their stats that Jones needs to hit?
what's confusing me is those posters keep asking for stats - yet I don't see them asking what number of W's it translates to.
Again - this thread started with people saying Jones has "no more excuses". An odd statement considering he hasn't made any.
30 TDs is arbitrary. Let's use 29 -- the real average of passing TDs playoffs team have had over the last 5 years.
Let's take it a step further -- forget averages if you hate blended effects. 28 of the 61 playoff teams threw 29+ TDs over the last five years. 45 threw 25 or more.
Remember - the Giants had a whopping 12 total TDs throws last year. Remember, the Giants had a whopping 3026 passing yards last year.
In the past 5 years 2 teams have made the playoff with fewer passing yards, zero have made the playoffs with fewer passing TDs.
The Giants had 4794 offensive yards - zero teams have made the playoffs with that many yards.
The Giant had a dismal passing game, and devoted lots of resources to that unit, because it sucked. And being good at passing the ball is how you make the playoffs.
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The Giants got more air support because they needed more to win. The players they had weren’t good enough to win. Better passing game is central to winning in the NFL these days and the players Gettleman had acquired going into 2020 weren’t good enough.
What’s confusing you so much with all the posters you love to hate?
Arguing for the sake of arguing?? This is just the latest iteration of the Jones sucks threads. That's not on me - that's a completely different group of posters who repeat the same things daily.
What's confusing me is the continued need to define what stats will define success. How many passing TD's are needed. What a player drafted in the 6th slot has to produce.
Why is there a continued call to have 30TD passes or else Jones is failing? Why is there a continued ask of BBI posters to list their stats that Jones needs to hit?
what's confusing me is those posters keep asking for stats - yet I don't see them asking what number of W's it translates to.
Again - this thread started with people saying Jones has "no more excuses". An odd statement considering he hasn't made any.
...every bit of this!
"Don't sit in a meeting and tell me what you don't have in a player. ... Tell me what they can do."
I know what Daniel Jones can do. He can make tight window throws down the field. There is video and statistical evidence to support this.
What did DG and Judge do? Signed and drafted players to exploit what Daniel does well.
This is not an agenda.
This being an intelligent architect of a football team.
I am really big on people actually doing what they say.
FUCK!@!!!
This jumps of the screen to me when I read posts here.
People say they just want the Giants to win.
SO DO ALL OF US!!
You can tell this, because we actually get excited when they do things we perceive will improve the team.
Yes, I know there was that one time you complimented DG.
Clearly, that was an outlier.
You might might to tuck in that narrative.
It is showing.
Then we did it to hit a magical 30TD passing number - derived from some intensive math work from Pascal (Even though just two years ago, only 4 QB's had 30+ TD's). I'm still waiting for von Neumann to modify that complex algorithm to take into account what happens if Barkley gets 10+ TD's again.
I've mentioned this twice, but you chose to ignore it. But in 2018, Mahomes, Luck, Wilson, Brees, Rivers, and Goff had 30+. And Brady had 29. Basically half the playoff QBs that year as well.
So in two of the last three years half the playoff QBs had 30 or > TD passes.
Pythagoras.
Why is there a continued call to have 30TD passes or else Jones is failing? Why is there a continued ask of BBI posters to list their stats that Jones needs to hit?
Seriously, are you okay? You seem more off than normal today...
No one has suggested that if Jones has less than 30 TD passes he is failing. The thesis has been we probably need X number of points to be in the playoff hunt based on looking at teams who qualified the last few years. And there is a reasonable likelihood that our QB will need 30 TDs to get us there.
Perhaps you are having side effects from the Covid vaccine...?
This jumps of the screen to me when I read posts here.
People say they just want the Giants to win.
SO DO ALL OF US!!
You can tell this, because we actually get excited when they do things we perceive will improve the team.
Yes, I know there was that one time you complimented DG.
Clearly, that was an outlier.
You might might to tuck in that narrative.
It is showing.
I agree on the deep balls. The biggest reason I have doubts on Jones is threading the needle on the longer intermediate throws down the seam and more importantly the sidelines. Making those throws is critical against the better defenses and especially in the playoffs. Maybe we are seeing Jones differently.
Judge and Garrett need to see Barkley in a similar way vis a vis Booker. I felt like Shurmur missed this point completely and severely limited Barkley's value by having him block or taking him out on third down plays because of his inability to do so. Barkley should line up all over the field and always be one of the top go to options.
I think this is the reason why there is so much heated debate regarding Barkley's value. If you look at him like James Robinson, then he was undoubtedly a reach in the 2018 draft. But if you look at him and deploy him as a hybrid of Barry Sanders and Chase Claypool, then the value makes more sense.
Spot on! +1
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The Giants got more air support because they needed more to win. The players they had weren’t good enough to win. Better passing game is central to winning in the NFL these days and the players Gettleman had acquired going into 2020 weren’t good enough.
What’s confusing you so much with all the posters you love to hate?
Arguing for the sake of arguing?? This is just the latest iteration of the Jones sucks threads. That's not on me - that's a completely different group of posters who repeat the same things daily.
What's confusing me is the continued need to define what stats will define success. How many passing TD's are needed. What a player drafted in the 6th slot has to produce.
Why is there a continued call to have 30TD passes or else Jones is failing? Why is there a continued ask of BBI posters to list their stats that Jones needs to hit?
what's confusing me is those posters keep asking for stats - yet I don't see them asking what number of W's it translates to.
Again - this thread started with people saying Jones has "no more excuses". An odd statement considering he hasn't made any.
You keep disagreeing with the point they got more air support for Jones because it will help them win. Why you are not on board with this simple view is absurd.
That makes you want to argue for argue sake...
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Is people that are desperate to have others acknowledge that they are correct in their perception that Daniel Jones is a terrible QB and by extension, that DG is a poor a GM for drafting him.
This jumps of the screen to me when I read posts here.
People say they just want the Giants to win.
SO DO ALL OF US!!
You can tell this, because we actually get excited when they do things we perceive will improve the team.
Yes, I know there was that one time you complimented DG.
Clearly, that was an outlier.
You might might to tuck in that narrative.
It is showing.
I agree on the deep balls. The biggest reason I have doubts on Jones is threading the needle on the longer intermediate throws down the seam and more importantly the sidelines. Making those throws is critical against the better defenses and especially in the playoffs. Maybe we are seeing Jones differently.
All of that is absolutely speculation but it is worth getting excited about.
No. Fmic noted above they didn’t really get more sir support for Jones to help them pass better and win more often.
Why that cannot be acknowledged is absurd.
I actually think Toney is going to be a big surprise when teams blitz and he also will be moving around in different spots.
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Everybody acknowledges the Giants need significantly more offense. The last Super Bowl team who had a pretty poor offense was the Ravens that I can recall. Still they averaged 340/game with a all time defense. 2020 Giants were at 299/game and rules make it hard to have those all time great D's anymore.
No. Fmic noted above they didn’t really get more sir support for Jones to help them pass better and win more often.
Why that cannot be acknowledged is absurd.
LOL. You babble on about arguing for the sake of arguing and then play the purposely dense card, Clownshoes.
I stated very clearly above why the Giants added targets. Because they had one of the worst receiving corps in the NFL. They also added a couple of RB's and DB's too. Was this to hit a specific number of INT's or YPC figures?
No. It was to better the team.
I know even a Clown grasps that - but you choose not to. So look in the fucking mirror and ask who is arguing for the sake of arguing. Just don't get too close and have the Clownshoes break it into pieces.
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Then we did it to hit a magical 30TD passing number - derived from some intensive math work from Pascal (Even though just two years ago, only 4 QB's had 30+ TD's). I'm still waiting for von Neumann to modify that complex algorithm to take into account what happens if Barkley gets 10+ TD's again.
I've mentioned this twice, but you chose to ignore it. But in 2018, Mahomes, Luck, Wilson, Brees, Rivers, and Goff had 30+. And Brady had 29. Basically half the playoff QBs that year as well.
So in two of the last three years half the playoff QBs had 30 or > TD passes.
Pythagoras.
I didn't ignore it, Babbage. I'm still wondering where your in-depth math took us to 30 TD's, and why the addition of an extra game didn't change that 30TD statement that you've been making since the end of the year.
I'm also wondering how important 30TD's is since in the past 3 years, LESS than 50% of the playoff teams have had QB's throw for that number. Only two years ago, three playoff teams had QB's throw 30+ TD's.
So why is 30 passing TD's the magic number? Why do you keep posting on multiple threads that Jones needs to have 30 passing TD's at a minimum? Does it take into account Barkley TD's or Jones rushing TD's. Just saying you've done the math means jackshit when it is really just being pulled from your ass, Turing
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In comment 15272864 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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Then we did it to hit a magical 30TD passing number - derived from some intensive math work from Pascal (Even though just two years ago, only 4 QB's had 30+ TD's). I'm still waiting for von Neumann to modify that complex algorithm to take into account what happens if Barkley gets 10+ TD's again.
I've mentioned this twice, but you chose to ignore it. But in 2018, Mahomes, Luck, Wilson, Brees, Rivers, and Goff had 30+. And Brady had 29. Basically half the playoff QBs that year as well.
So in two of the last three years half the playoff QBs had 30 or > TD passes.
Pythagoras.
I didn't ignore it, Babbage. I'm still wondering where your in-depth math took us to 30 TD's, and why the addition of an extra game didn't change that 30TD statement that you've been making since the end of the year.
I'm also wondering how important 30TD's is since in the past 3 years, LESS than 50% of the playoff teams have had QB's throw for that number. Only two years ago, three playoff teams had QB's throw 30+ TD's.
So why is 30 passing TD's the magic number? Why do you keep posting on multiple threads that Jones needs to have 30 passing TD's at a minimum? Does it take into account Barkley TD's or Jones rushing TD's. Just saying you've done the math means jackshit when it is really just being pulled from your ass, Turing
bw is very honest, very upfront. He will tell you that he is indeed stubborn..:)
Let’s try the sock puppet version here:
1) the Giants added passing weapons because their pass offense sucked
2) what are basic ways to measure if it got better? More yards and TDs
3) what are the average passing yards and passing TDs a playoff team has had over the last 5 years? 3900 yards, 29 TDs
I don’t expect Barkley to be the Swiss Army knife guy, I expect that to be Toney.
I do expect Barkley to get a ton of carries and push for 1300 yards and 10 TDs on the ground.
Let’s try the sock puppet version here:
1) the Giants added passing weapons because their pass offense sucked
2) what are basic ways to measure if it got better? More yards and TDs
3) what are the average passing yards and passing TDs a playoff team has had over the last 5 years? 3900 yards, 29 TDs
And another post by a supposed numbers guy who doesn't mention W's....
If I'm the Kool-Aid Man(y), are you the Flaming Bag of Shit on Kenneth's Porch?
I didn't ignore it, Babbage. I'm still wondering where your in-depth math took us to 30 TD's, and why the addition of an extra game didn't change that 30TD statement that you've been making since the end of the year.
I'm also wondering how important 30TD's is since in the past 3 years, LESS than 50% of the playoff teams have had QB's throw for that number. Only two years ago, three playoff teams had QB's throw 30+ TD's.
So why is 30 passing TD's the magic number? Why do you keep posting on multiple threads that Jones needs to have 30 passing TD's at a minimum? Does it take into account Barkley TD's or Jones rushing TD's. Just saying you've done the math means jackshit when it is really just being pulled from your ass, Turing
It's not a magic number. It's a best guess and it's practical.
If I wrote Jones needed to create 40-50TDs, a real stretch, perhaps I could understand today's episode of "A DaftMan in Charlotte".
If it makes you more comfortable, I could check data back in 1935...
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In comment 15272906 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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Everybody acknowledges the Giants need significantly more offense. The last Super Bowl team who had a pretty poor offense was the Ravens that I can recall. Still they averaged 340/game with a all time defense. 2020 Giants were at 299/game and rules make it hard to have those all time great D's anymore.
No. Fmic noted above they didn’t really get more sir support for Jones to help them pass better and win more often.
Why that cannot be acknowledged is absurd.
LOL. You babble on about arguing for the sake of arguing and then play the purposely dense card, Clownshoes.
I stated very clearly above why the Giants added targets. Because they had one of the worst receiving corps in the NFL. They also added a couple of RB's and DB's too. Was this to hit a specific number of INT's or YPC figures?
No. It was to better the team.
I know even a Clown grasps that - but you choose not to. So look in the fucking mirror and ask who is arguing for the sake of arguing. Just don't get too close and have the Clownshoes break it into pieces.
You typed it right above. I pointed it out to you and you still went plowing right ahead with the absurd take that the Giants didn’t add air support to an more with the passing game.
You are too busy trying to ridicule everyone that you don’t even think straight when you post.
Looks like it’s Kool Aid guy time...
Those numbers are tied to playoff appearance, which is a far more honest, significant, and fair measurement of success.
I know you hate it -- but try a little harder.
Teams who have made the playoffs the last 5 years, on average, have hit those measures.
- They don't have to (no one has said that)
- It's not the only way to (no one said that either)
- There's no guarantee they will (no one has that either, either)
But it's the average. It's a barometer.
Are we discussing the motivation behind this off-season?
What words were misused?
I think it is very obvious what happened and why it happened.
They signed and drafted those players because they want to win more games than they did in 2020.
Discussion over.
Some guys that throw for 30 TD's in a season make the playoffs.
Some guys that throw for 30 TD's in a season don't make the playoffs.
Some guys that throw for less than 30 TD's in a season make the playoffs.
Some guys that throw for less than 30 TD's in a season don't make the playoffs.
That's sum it up?
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A guy who had decent stats, made the pro bowl and led the team to the playoffs?
I would argue yes because it is clear that his ceiling is too low to legitimately compete for an NFL Super Bowl.
Absolutely. And he's been a better player than Jones.
I have no doubts that if Jones were on another team he'd be held in very low esteem on BBI.
Well that settles it.
BBI was wrong about our own QB, Eli Manning.
Some guys that throw for 30 TD's in a season make the playoffs.
Some guys that throw for 30 TD's in a season don't make the playoffs.
Some guys that throw for less than 30 TD's in a season make the playoffs.
Some guys that throw for less than 30 TD's in a season don't make the playoffs.
That's sum it up?
No, but that's actually very funny.
The exercise is trying to find an attainable number of TD passes from Jones that would likely put us in the best position to make the playoffs.
So why did those teams win 11-14 games while the Giants only won 6?
No one disputes that the NYG passing needs to improve. ONe could also say that if the Giants passed the ball as well as anyone but couldn't run or stop the run, they'd finish 6-10 as well.
You can't suck at anything in the NFL and go very far. We sucked at passing the ball in 2021. No arguments out of me. I aint buying that we were very good at running though, no matter what the stats say. We were ordinary at best if you ask me.
I can help. FMiC had a panic attack because a few of us dared to project the number of TD passes Jones would need get put us in a good position to make the playoffs.
And since many of us aren't up to speed on the unwritten BBI rules that cause panic attacks for my fat friend in Charolotte, we apparently violated one here.
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In comment 15271828 The Mike said:
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A guy who had decent stats, made the pro bowl and led the team to the playoffs?
I would argue yes because it is clear that his ceiling is too low to legitimately compete for an NFL Super Bowl.
Absolutely. And he's been a better player than Jones.
I have no doubts that if Jones were on another team he'd be held in very low esteem on BBI.
Well that settles it.
BBI was wrong about our own QB, Eli Manning.
I wasn't. And neither were a lot of other posters.
And again - Eli has nothing to do with Jones. Completely different type, style, and quality of player...not to mention a completely different era. Just not applicable.
If you want applicable comparisons to Jones, look at the young QBs around the league right now. Obviously, not encouraging.
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Even going back and re reading I don't know what the fuck everyone is arguing with FMiC about. I have responded to people outside of that argument. Could someone give the short version?
I can help. FMiC had a panic attack because a few of us dared to project the number of TD passes Jones would need get put us in a good position to make the playoffs.
And since many of us aren't up to speed on the unwritten BBI rules that cause panic attacks for my fat friend in Charolotte, we apparently violated one here.
He just needs a nice cool refreshing drink and maybe it will help think clearly.
Or should we ready the escape hatch...
If you want applicable comparisons to Jones, look at the young QBs around the league right now. Obviously, not encouraging.
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If you want applicable comparisons to Jones, look at the young QBs around the league right now. Obviously, not encouraging.
It never fails, people always use words like "obviously" and "clearly" when it is anything but obvious and clear. It's a tell. A pre-emptive strike because you know your argument is weak.
You're right. Jones has been great. The 18-8 record as a starter and the playoff appearance last year are an encouraging start to his career.
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In comment 15273045 Go Terps said:
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If you want applicable comparisons to Jones, look at the young QBs around the league right now. Obviously, not encouraging.
It never fails, people always use words like "obviously" and "clearly" when it is anything but obvious and clear. It's a tell. A pre-emptive strike because you know your argument is weak.
You're right. Jones has been great. The 18-8 record as a starter and the playoff appearance last year are an encouraging start to his career.
Quote:
If you want applicable comparisons to Jones, look at the young QBs around the league right now. Obviously, not encouraging.
It never fails, people always use words like "obviously" and "clearly" when it is anything but obvious and clear. It's a tell. A pre-emptive strike because you know your argument is weak.
I have to imagine in an honest moment it's clear and obvious to you we really don't know if Jones is the solution at QB yet.
Quote:
If you want applicable comparisons to Jones, look at the young QBs around the league right now. Obviously, not encouraging.
It never fails, people always use words like "obviously" and "clearly" when it is anything but obvious and clear. It's a tell. A pre-emptive strike because you know your argument is weak.
Much like using “it never fails...” when it’s clearly and obviously going to fail...