If you have seen any TV discussions on the New York Giants in the last few weeks, almost universally the same argument is made by every pundit:
"The Giants have done everything to surround Daniel Jones with talent. He is out of excuses. The fate of the team rests with him."
Then many of these same pundits use this as an opportunity to say they don't believe in Daniel Jones and that's why the Giants won't finish first in the NFC East.
While I do think there is a great deal of merit in what they say about how important QB play will be in determining the fate of the Giants, I'm surprised that none of these media discussions have addressed the elephant in the room:
For better or worse, the Giants did very little this offseason in addressing the offensive line, the well-known Achilles heel of the team for the past decade.
Kevin Zeitler was let go. Zach Fulton was added in free agency. Nate Solder returns as insurance depth. Jonotthan Harrison replaces Spencer Pulley as back-up center.
In other words, not much changed. As has been discussed nauseam on BBI, Gettleman and Judge are putting their faith in the new OL coaching (Rob Sale and Pat Flaherty) and the development of the young guys (Thomas, Lemieux, Gates, Peart, and even Hernandez).
But this argument that it is "all on Daniel Jones" doesn't address the fact that the franchise is taking a big gamble by standing pat on the OL. Now I'm optimistic about the OL, but if they don't make a big jump in their play, this offense is still going to have major issues. It won't be as bad as it was last year because the upgrade in the other skill positions has been so dramatic, but the OL still needs to keep Jones upright and open holes for Barkley and the other new running backs.
I just find it extremely odd that every pundit keeps saying, "it's all on Daniel Jones." I would argue, "much depends on Jones and the offensive line."
So we went out and got air support for Jones because passing is the way to win?? How about because our receiver group was poor. Why did we sign a RB? Why did we draft a RB? Isn't that kind of contradictory?
Why have we put resources into the OL, LB and DB's the past few years? To improve those position groups that have been poor. We're improving the team - not adding players just to join a NFL trend.
Both are true - we needed better receivers and having better receivers is the ticket to more points (if Jones is better). Not sure why this is confusing.
We got another RB because we need more depth at the position. I mean, that's pretty straightforward, especially as insurance if SB isn't completely ready to resume his full role.
Frankly, I'm not sure you how you missed it, but your hero Gettleman, and even Mara at the State of the Union, specifically said that Jones needed more weapons. And that was essentially THE PLAN for this offseason.
Has anyone suggested running the ball isn't important?
I believe you live near Tampa? If so, ask the Bucs what was more important - running the ball effectively or have one of the greatest QBs to replace Winston.
Maybe you can break it down in math terms, Fibonacci.
I know that's now taboo around here making individual player predictions. But I find it useful nonetheless... ;)
Me too!
I think a fair observation is (and backed up by the team's actions in the draft, and free agency):
- Even without Barkley, the Giants were much closer to a playoff type rush offense than pass offense
- If you add 12 healthy games of Barkley to the mix next year, they should get there
- The Giants had a big gap between where they were and where they needed to go in the pass game, and invested heavily there
Maybe you can break it down in math terms, Fibonacci.
You don't think Mr. Analytics doesn't know this?
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Important.
Has anyone suggested running the ball isn't important?
I believe you live near Tampa? If so, ask the Bucs what was more important - running the ball effectively or have one of the greatest QBs to replace Winston.
Just because Brady was an elite QB doesn't mean he is anymore. Lots of QBs could have won with that roster and coaching staff, just absolutely stacked. Possibly the best roster in football last year. Then they got pretty lucky on when they were playing teams (something Parcells says is as important as who you play). Winston was holding them back because he was a turnover machine.
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I'm being rhetorical here - but why do you think we went out and added more air support for Jones?
So we went out and got air support for Jones because passing is the way to win?? How about because our receiver group was poor. Why did we sign a RB? Why did we draft a RB? Isn't that kind of contradictory?
Why have we put resources into the OL, LB and DB's the past few years? To improve those position groups that have been poor. We're improving the team - not adding players just to join a NFL trend.
It's almost like football is a team sport and it's about the best 53 and not individual players. This keeps you fluid and multiple. In a game of matchups, this is the key to consistent success.
It's why I'm excited the most I've been years about this team, best back end of the roster I remember in a long time, which in a war of attrition (17 games this year as well) is vital.
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I'm being rhetorical here - but why do you think we went out and added more air support for Jones?
So we went out and got air support for Jones because passing is the way to win??.
Yes.
Did you think it was a coincidence?
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Important.
Has anyone suggested running the ball isn't important?
I believe you live near Tampa? If so, ask the Bucs what was more important - running the ball effectively or have one of the greatest QBs to replace Winston.
Yes, some people are doing everything they can to negate its importance. And like I said earlier, do this exercise without the top MVP level QBs because that’s the discussion we should be having.
No one on planet earth is comparing Jones to Brady or Rodgers or Mahomes so we shouldn’t be using them as examples in his exercise. His peers are the other 25 guys trying to figure out how to play well enough to win games and make the playoffs. And a big part of that is how they work off of the run game.
Judge and Garrett need to see Barkley in a similar way vis a vis Booker. I felt like Shurmur missed this point completely and severely limited Barkley's value by having him block or taking him out on third down plays because of his inability to do so. Barkley should line up all over the field and always be one of the top go to options.
I think this is the reason why there is so much heated debate regarding Barkley's value. If you look at him like James Robinson, then he was undoubtedly a reach in the 2018 draft. But if you look at him and deploy him as a hybrid of Barry Sanders and Chase Claypool, then the value makes more sense.
2021 Barkley with Galloday, Shep, Slayton, Rudolph, Toney.
The key to the offense will be winning first down more consistently. If they do that Jones and the offense have a chance.
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I'm being rhetorical here - but why do you think we went out and added more air support for Jones?
So we went out and got air support for Jones because passing is the way to win??.
Yes.
Did you think it was a coincidence?
Not coincidence, Jimmy Clownshoes. As clearly stated, it was to better a position group that was poor. read Zeke's post above.
The argumentation is all over the place. First we signed these guys to eliminate the excuses (the excuses that DJ doesn't even make). Then we traded with the Bears to give ourselves insurance in case Jones has a bad year. We even heard some happy horseshit about Judge being in a win-win situation where he can gain more control over the team if we play badly.
Then we did it to hit a magical 30TD passing number - derived from some intensive math work from Pascal (Even though just two years ago, only 4 QB's had 30+ TD's). I'm still waiting for von Neumann to modify that complex algorithm to take into account what happens if Barkley gets 10+ TD's again.
It isn't coincidence to sign offensive players, it is to improve a group that was one of the worst in the league last season.
The argumentation is all over the place - because it is just people looking to drum up the daily argument to list the reasons why Jones sucks.
It is rather shocking that there are some who do not get that SB is more than a RB, an absolute double threat when healthy. Give him a reasonably good OL and he’d be extremely difficult to defense, imv..Extremely.
Judge and Garrett need to see Barkley in a similar way vis a vis Booker. I felt like Shurmur missed this point completely and severely limited Barkley's value by having him block or taking him out on third down plays because of his inability to do so. Barkley should line up all over the field and always be one of the top go to options.
I think this is the reason why there is so much heated debate regarding Barkley's value. If you look at him like James Robinson, then he was undoubtedly a reach in the 2018 draft. But if you look at him and deploy him as a hybrid of Barry Sanders and Chase Claypool, then the value makes more sense.
Nice job Mike. Clear as day, imv..Oh well..
What’s confusing you so much with all the posters you love to hate?
What’s confusing you so much with all the posters you love to hate?
Arguing for the sake of arguing?? This is just the latest iteration of the Jones sucks threads. That's not on me - that's a completely different group of posters who repeat the same things daily.
What's confusing me is the continued need to define what stats will define success. How many passing TD's are needed. What a player drafted in the 6th slot has to produce.
Why is there a continued call to have 30TD passes or else Jones is failing? Why is there a continued ask of BBI posters to list their stats that Jones needs to hit?
what's confusing me is those posters keep asking for stats - yet I don't see them asking what number of W's it translates to.
Again - this thread started with people saying Jones has "no more excuses". An odd statement considering he hasn't made any.
30 TDs is arbitrary. Let's use 29 -- the real average of passing TDs playoffs team have had over the last 5 years.
Let's take it a step further -- forget averages if you hate blended effects. 28 of the 61 playoff teams threw 29+ TDs over the last five years. 45 threw 25 or more.
Remember - the Giants had a whopping 12 total TDs throws last year. Remember, the Giants had a whopping 3026 passing yards last year.
In the past 5 years 2 teams have made the playoff with fewer passing yards, zero have made the playoffs with fewer passing TDs.
The Giants had 4794 offensive yards - zero teams have made the playoffs with that many yards.
The Giant had a dismal passing game, and devoted lots of resources to that unit, because it sucked. And being good at passing the ball is how you make the playoffs.
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The Giants got more air support because they needed more to win. The players they had weren’t good enough to win. Better passing game is central to winning in the NFL these days and the players Gettleman had acquired going into 2020 weren’t good enough.
What’s confusing you so much with all the posters you love to hate?
Arguing for the sake of arguing?? This is just the latest iteration of the Jones sucks threads. That's not on me - that's a completely different group of posters who repeat the same things daily.
What's confusing me is the continued need to define what stats will define success. How many passing TD's are needed. What a player drafted in the 6th slot has to produce.
Why is there a continued call to have 30TD passes or else Jones is failing? Why is there a continued ask of BBI posters to list their stats that Jones needs to hit?
what's confusing me is those posters keep asking for stats - yet I don't see them asking what number of W's it translates to.
Again - this thread started with people saying Jones has "no more excuses". An odd statement considering he hasn't made any.
...every bit of this!
"Don't sit in a meeting and tell me what you don't have in a player. ... Tell me what they can do."
I know what Daniel Jones can do. He can make tight window throws down the field. There is video and statistical evidence to support this.
What did DG and Judge do? Signed and drafted players to exploit what Daniel does well.
This is not an agenda.
This being an intelligent architect of a football team.
I am really big on people actually doing what they say.
FUCK!@!!!
This jumps of the screen to me when I read posts here.
People say they just want the Giants to win.
SO DO ALL OF US!!
You can tell this, because we actually get excited when they do things we perceive will improve the team.
Yes, I know there was that one time you complimented DG.
Clearly, that was an outlier.
You might might to tuck in that narrative.
It is showing.
Then we did it to hit a magical 30TD passing number - derived from some intensive math work from Pascal (Even though just two years ago, only 4 QB's had 30+ TD's). I'm still waiting for von Neumann to modify that complex algorithm to take into account what happens if Barkley gets 10+ TD's again.
I've mentioned this twice, but you chose to ignore it. But in 2018, Mahomes, Luck, Wilson, Brees, Rivers, and Goff had 30+. And Brady had 29. Basically half the playoff QBs that year as well.
So in two of the last three years half the playoff QBs had 30 or > TD passes.
Pythagoras.
Why is there a continued call to have 30TD passes or else Jones is failing? Why is there a continued ask of BBI posters to list their stats that Jones needs to hit?
Seriously, are you okay? You seem more off than normal today...
No one has suggested that if Jones has less than 30 TD passes he is failing. The thesis has been we probably need X number of points to be in the playoff hunt based on looking at teams who qualified the last few years. And there is a reasonable likelihood that our QB will need 30 TDs to get us there.
Perhaps you are having side effects from the Covid vaccine...?
This jumps of the screen to me when I read posts here.
People say they just want the Giants to win.
SO DO ALL OF US!!
You can tell this, because we actually get excited when they do things we perceive will improve the team.
Yes, I know there was that one time you complimented DG.
Clearly, that was an outlier.
You might might to tuck in that narrative.
It is showing.
I agree on the deep balls. The biggest reason I have doubts on Jones is threading the needle on the longer intermediate throws down the seam and more importantly the sidelines. Making those throws is critical against the better defenses and especially in the playoffs. Maybe we are seeing Jones differently.
Judge and Garrett need to see Barkley in a similar way vis a vis Booker. I felt like Shurmur missed this point completely and severely limited Barkley's value by having him block or taking him out on third down plays because of his inability to do so. Barkley should line up all over the field and always be one of the top go to options.
I think this is the reason why there is so much heated debate regarding Barkley's value. If you look at him like James Robinson, then he was undoubtedly a reach in the 2018 draft. But if you look at him and deploy him as a hybrid of Barry Sanders and Chase Claypool, then the value makes more sense.
Spot on! +1
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The Giants got more air support because they needed more to win. The players they had weren’t good enough to win. Better passing game is central to winning in the NFL these days and the players Gettleman had acquired going into 2020 weren’t good enough.
What’s confusing you so much with all the posters you love to hate?
Arguing for the sake of arguing?? This is just the latest iteration of the Jones sucks threads. That's not on me - that's a completely different group of posters who repeat the same things daily.
What's confusing me is the continued need to define what stats will define success. How many passing TD's are needed. What a player drafted in the 6th slot has to produce.
Why is there a continued call to have 30TD passes or else Jones is failing? Why is there a continued ask of BBI posters to list their stats that Jones needs to hit?
what's confusing me is those posters keep asking for stats - yet I don't see them asking what number of W's it translates to.
Again - this thread started with people saying Jones has "no more excuses". An odd statement considering he hasn't made any.
You keep disagreeing with the point they got more air support for Jones because it will help them win. Why you are not on board with this simple view is absurd.
That makes you want to argue for argue sake...
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Is people that are desperate to have others acknowledge that they are correct in their perception that Daniel Jones is a terrible QB and by extension, that DG is a poor a GM for drafting him.
This jumps of the screen to me when I read posts here.
People say they just want the Giants to win.
SO DO ALL OF US!!
You can tell this, because we actually get excited when they do things we perceive will improve the team.
Yes, I know there was that one time you complimented DG.
Clearly, that was an outlier.
You might might to tuck in that narrative.
It is showing.
I agree on the deep balls. The biggest reason I have doubts on Jones is threading the needle on the longer intermediate throws down the seam and more importantly the sidelines. Making those throws is critical against the better defenses and especially in the playoffs. Maybe we are seeing Jones differently.
All of that is absolutely speculation but it is worth getting excited about.
No. Fmic noted above they didn’t really get more sir support for Jones to help them pass better and win more often.
Why that cannot be acknowledged is absurd.
I actually think Toney is going to be a big surprise when teams blitz and he also will be moving around in different spots.
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Everybody acknowledges the Giants need significantly more offense. The last Super Bowl team who had a pretty poor offense was the Ravens that I can recall. Still they averaged 340/game with a all time defense. 2020 Giants were at 299/game and rules make it hard to have those all time great D's anymore.
No. Fmic noted above they didn’t really get more sir support for Jones to help them pass better and win more often.
Why that cannot be acknowledged is absurd.
LOL. You babble on about arguing for the sake of arguing and then play the purposely dense card, Clownshoes.
I stated very clearly above why the Giants added targets. Because they had one of the worst receiving corps in the NFL. They also added a couple of RB's and DB's too. Was this to hit a specific number of INT's or YPC figures?
No. It was to better the team.
I know even a Clown grasps that - but you choose not to. So look in the fucking mirror and ask who is arguing for the sake of arguing. Just don't get too close and have the Clownshoes break it into pieces.
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Then we did it to hit a magical 30TD passing number - derived from some intensive math work from Pascal (Even though just two years ago, only 4 QB's had 30+ TD's). I'm still waiting for von Neumann to modify that complex algorithm to take into account what happens if Barkley gets 10+ TD's again.
I've mentioned this twice, but you chose to ignore it. But in 2018, Mahomes, Luck, Wilson, Brees, Rivers, and Goff had 30+. And Brady had 29. Basically half the playoff QBs that year as well.
So in two of the last three years half the playoff QBs had 30 or > TD passes.
Pythagoras.
I didn't ignore it, Babbage. I'm still wondering where your in-depth math took us to 30 TD's, and why the addition of an extra game didn't change that 30TD statement that you've been making since the end of the year.
I'm also wondering how important 30TD's is since in the past 3 years, LESS than 50% of the playoff teams have had QB's throw for that number. Only two years ago, three playoff teams had QB's throw 30+ TD's.
So why is 30 passing TD's the magic number? Why do you keep posting on multiple threads that Jones needs to have 30 passing TD's at a minimum? Does it take into account Barkley TD's or Jones rushing TD's. Just saying you've done the math means jackshit when it is really just being pulled from your ass, Turing
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In comment 15272864 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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Then we did it to hit a magical 30TD passing number - derived from some intensive math work from Pascal (Even though just two years ago, only 4 QB's had 30+ TD's). I'm still waiting for von Neumann to modify that complex algorithm to take into account what happens if Barkley gets 10+ TD's again.
I've mentioned this twice, but you chose to ignore it. But in 2018, Mahomes, Luck, Wilson, Brees, Rivers, and Goff had 30+. And Brady had 29. Basically half the playoff QBs that year as well.
So in two of the last three years half the playoff QBs had 30 or > TD passes.
Pythagoras.
I didn't ignore it, Babbage. I'm still wondering where your in-depth math took us to 30 TD's, and why the addition of an extra game didn't change that 30TD statement that you've been making since the end of the year.
I'm also wondering how important 30TD's is since in the past 3 years, LESS than 50% of the playoff teams have had QB's throw for that number. Only two years ago, three playoff teams had QB's throw 30+ TD's.
So why is 30 passing TD's the magic number? Why do you keep posting on multiple threads that Jones needs to have 30 passing TD's at a minimum? Does it take into account Barkley TD's or Jones rushing TD's. Just saying you've done the math means jackshit when it is really just being pulled from your ass, Turing
bw is very honest, very upfront. He will tell you that he is indeed stubborn..:)
Let’s try the sock puppet version here:
1) the Giants added passing weapons because their pass offense sucked
2) what are basic ways to measure if it got better? More yards and TDs
3) what are the average passing yards and passing TDs a playoff team has had over the last 5 years? 3900 yards, 29 TDs
I don’t expect Barkley to be the Swiss Army knife guy, I expect that to be Toney.
I do expect Barkley to get a ton of carries and push for 1300 yards and 10 TDs on the ground.
Let’s try the sock puppet version here:
1) the Giants added passing weapons because their pass offense sucked
2) what are basic ways to measure if it got better? More yards and TDs
3) what are the average passing yards and passing TDs a playoff team has had over the last 5 years? 3900 yards, 29 TDs
And another post by a supposed numbers guy who doesn't mention W's....
If I'm the Kool-Aid Man(y), are you the Flaming Bag of Shit on Kenneth's Porch?
I didn't ignore it, Babbage. I'm still wondering where your in-depth math took us to 30 TD's, and why the addition of an extra game didn't change that 30TD statement that you've been making since the end of the year.
I'm also wondering how important 30TD's is since in the past 3 years, LESS than 50% of the playoff teams have had QB's throw for that number. Only two years ago, three playoff teams had QB's throw 30+ TD's.
So why is 30 passing TD's the magic number? Why do you keep posting on multiple threads that Jones needs to have 30 passing TD's at a minimum? Does it take into account Barkley TD's or Jones rushing TD's. Just saying you've done the math means jackshit when it is really just being pulled from your ass, Turing
It's not a magic number. It's a best guess and it's practical.
If I wrote Jones needed to create 40-50TDs, a real stretch, perhaps I could understand today's episode of "A DaftMan in Charlotte".
If it makes you more comfortable, I could check data back in 1935...
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In comment 15272906 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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Everybody acknowledges the Giants need significantly more offense. The last Super Bowl team who had a pretty poor offense was the Ravens that I can recall. Still they averaged 340/game with a all time defense. 2020 Giants were at 299/game and rules make it hard to have those all time great D's anymore.
No. Fmic noted above they didn’t really get more sir support for Jones to help them pass better and win more often.
Why that cannot be acknowledged is absurd.
LOL. You babble on about arguing for the sake of arguing and then play the purposely dense card, Clownshoes.
I stated very clearly above why the Giants added targets. Because they had one of the worst receiving corps in the NFL. They also added a couple of RB's and DB's too. Was this to hit a specific number of INT's or YPC figures?
No. It was to better the team.
I know even a Clown grasps that - but you choose not to. So look in the fucking mirror and ask who is arguing for the sake of arguing. Just don't get too close and have the Clownshoes break it into pieces.
You typed it right above. I pointed it out to you and you still went plowing right ahead with the absurd take that the Giants didn’t add air support to an more with the passing game.
You are too busy trying to ridicule everyone that you don’t even think straight when you post.
Looks like it’s Kool Aid guy time...
Those numbers are tied to playoff appearance, which is a far more honest, significant, and fair measurement of success.
I know you hate it -- but try a little harder.
Teams who have made the playoffs the last 5 years, on average, have hit those measures.
- They don't have to (no one has said that)
- It's not the only way to (no one said that either)
- There's no guarantee they will (no one has that either, either)
But it's the average. It's a barometer.
Are we discussing the motivation behind this off-season?
What words were misused?
I think it is very obvious what happened and why it happened.
They signed and drafted those players because they want to win more games than they did in 2020.
Discussion over.
Some guys that throw for 30 TD's in a season make the playoffs.
Some guys that throw for 30 TD's in a season don't make the playoffs.
Some guys that throw for less than 30 TD's in a season make the playoffs.
Some guys that throw for less than 30 TD's in a season don't make the playoffs.
That's sum it up?
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A guy who had decent stats, made the pro bowl and led the team to the playoffs?
I would argue yes because it is clear that his ceiling is too low to legitimately compete for an NFL Super Bowl.
Absolutely. And he's been a better player than Jones.
I have no doubts that if Jones were on another team he'd be held in very low esteem on BBI.
Well that settles it.
BBI was wrong about our own QB, Eli Manning.
Some guys that throw for 30 TD's in a season make the playoffs.
Some guys that throw for 30 TD's in a season don't make the playoffs.
Some guys that throw for less than 30 TD's in a season make the playoffs.
Some guys that throw for less than 30 TD's in a season don't make the playoffs.
That's sum it up?
No, but that's actually very funny.
The exercise is trying to find an attainable number of TD passes from Jones that would likely put us in the best position to make the playoffs.
So why did those teams win 11-14 games while the Giants only won 6?
No one disputes that the NYG passing needs to improve. ONe could also say that if the Giants passed the ball as well as anyone but couldn't run or stop the run, they'd finish 6-10 as well.
You can't suck at anything in the NFL and go very far. We sucked at passing the ball in 2021. No arguments out of me. I aint buying that we were very good at running though, no matter what the stats say. We were ordinary at best if you ask me.