If you have seen any TV discussions on the New York Giants in the last few weeks, almost universally the same argument is made by every pundit:
"The Giants have done everything to surround Daniel Jones with talent. He is out of excuses. The fate of the team rests with him."
Then many of these same pundits use this as an opportunity to say they don't believe in Daniel Jones and that's why the Giants won't finish first in the NFC East.
While I do think there is a great deal of merit in what they say about how important QB play will be in determining the fate of the Giants, I'm surprised that none of these media discussions have addressed the elephant in the room:
For better or worse, the Giants did very little this offseason in addressing the offensive line, the well-known Achilles heel of the team for the past decade.
Kevin Zeitler was let go. Zach Fulton was added in free agency. Nate Solder returns as insurance depth. Jonotthan Harrison replaces Spencer Pulley as back-up center.
In other words, not much changed. As has been discussed nauseam on BBI, Gettleman and Judge are putting their faith in the new OL coaching (Rob Sale and Pat Flaherty) and the development of the young guys (Thomas, Lemieux, Gates, Peart, and even Hernandez).
But this argument that it is "all on Daniel Jones" doesn't address the fact that the franchise is taking a big gamble by standing pat on the OL. Now I'm optimistic about the OL, but if they don't make a big jump in their play, this offense is still going to have major issues. It won't be as bad as it was last year because the upgrade in the other skill positions has been so dramatic, but the OL still needs to keep Jones upright and open holes for Barkley and the other new running backs.
I just find it extremely odd that every pundit keeps saying, "it's all on Daniel Jones." I would argue, "much depends on Jones and the offensive line."
Dave, if you believe as strongly in Judge as I do, you’d probably be better served (for your mental well being, 😎) to start with 2020 as I have and go from there.
Several third year quarterbacks (Mahomes, Jackson, Watson, Allen) have played excellent football while leading their teams to division titles and the playoffs. It's perfectly reasonable to expect the same from Jones at this point.
Well, I think most people think Mahomes is a pretty great young QB. But anyone who watched Mahomes in the superbowl saw what it was like to be a Giants QB for the last 6+ years. Mahomes did what he could, but (despite all of his weapons) he couldn't carry the team on his back because he was too busy running for his life.
It's great that they got Jones all of these weapons. And I hope the Giants are right about their young OLs being better than the outside world thinks they are.
Further, the Giants still could, and if necessary, SHOULD trade for a GOOD, starting veteran OL before the season. The have a lot of extra draft picks they could make a deal with.
As for Jones, all he really needs to do is cut down (further) on the fumbling and the unforced errors. His brains, passing skills, mobility, toughness, and work ethic are not in question. Make sure he's adequately protected and I think we'll see him blossom.
Ha, ditto my brutha
Well, I think most people think Mahomes is a pretty great young QB. But anyone who watched Mahomes in the superbowl saw what it was like to be a Giants QB for the last 6+ years. Mahomes did what he could, but (despite all of his weapons) he couldn't carry the team on his back because he was too busy running for his life.
It's great that they got Jones all of these weapons. And I hope the Giants are right about their young OLs being better than the outside world thinks they are.
Further, the Giants still could, and if necessary, SHOULD trade for a GOOD, starting veteran OL before the season. The have a lot of extra draft picks they could make a deal with.
As for Jones, all he really needs to do is cut down (further) on the fumbling and the unforced errors. His brains, passing skills, mobility, toughness, and work ethic are not in question. Make sure he's adequately protected and I think we'll see him blossom.
Or Brady against us in XLII, where we terrorized him, until, according to Spags, Brady’s last scoring drive, when he played with us because Spags pulled the metal off the pedal, his major regret..
Jones played worse than Pisarchik in 2020. I can't have that in 2021. If he does it again, they need to ship him the fuck out of here. I am not suggesting he has to be the MVP but he has to be markedly better in 2021.
We can trade for a veteran or move up to draft one. If we are sitting at 12 or higher, do whatever it takes to get a new one. If Daniel Jones doesn't like that, he can win some fucking games by elevating those around him with great play.
Jones played worse than Pisarchik in 2020. I can't have that in 2021. If he does it again, they need to ship him the fuck out of here. I am not suggesting he has to be the MVP but he has to be markedly better in 2021.
We can trade for a veteran or move up to draft one. If we are sitting at 12 or higher, do whatever it takes to get a new one. If Daniel Jones doesn't like that, he can win some fucking games by elevating those around him with great play.
Yes, he played rather terribly the beginning of the season, until he got his bearings and was moving us quite well PRE-INJURY, even with our mediocre OL..Comparing his output to Piscarcik once he got his bearings before the hammy and Ankle injuries is silly and very unfair, imv
You’re certainly entitled to your feel on this..Bowing out now (yet again)…😎
They don't subscribe to ultimatums like "no more excuses". It's a completely different mindset.
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They are in a completely different mindset. They have eyes on all facets of what's going on out there and trying to fix things. They evaluate players and try to put them in positions to succeed.
They don't subscribe to ultimatums like "no more excuses". It's a completely different mindset.
100% accurate!
That's very well put. The divide between fans and the football people is that fans crave that one neck to choke. They want and easy answer as toy why the team struggles. They want to jettison one guy and pin the blame on him.
And when that guy gets jettisoned and the team still isn't good, they move on to the next target. The way end of career Eli was treated by some "fans" was pretty fucking embarrassing.
I had pointed to how Colt McCoy had cut the Giants sacks per play percentage IN HALF when he started instead of Jones. So we have Jones performing much worse than a career backup in a key QB area.
So you need to evaluate two interacting variables here and not pretend Jones has to be propped up by one. The OL needs to help Jones play well and Jones needs to help his OL play well.
1. We have to make a decision on Jones's 5th year option after the 2021 season
2. Is Jones worth paying $20M+ for the 2023 season if we do pick up that option? $30M+ after that?
3. We have two 1st round draft picks in 2022; does it make more sense to use one (or both) of those picks to get a QB whose scouting and selection Judge can oversee
There are many reasons this three year period has been as bad as its been, but resource allocation has to be near the top of that list of culprits.
Any decision regarding Jones must be done with an eye towards optimal resource allocation.
The Giants to me have significantly upgraded their roster. They question is can they meld all of the new pieces into a cohesively functioning team, and can it be done by opening day. Jones is part of that process.
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In comment 15270729 Britt in VA said:
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They are in a completely different mindset. They have eyes on all facets of what's going on out there and trying to fix things. They evaluate players and try to put them in positions to succeed.
They don't subscribe to ultimatums like "no more excuses". It's a completely different mindset.
100% accurate!
That's very well put. The divide between fans and the football people is that fans crave that one neck to choke. They want and easy answer as toy why the team struggles. They want to jettison one guy and pin the blame on him.
And when that guy gets jettisoned and the team still isn't good, they move on to the next target. The way end of career Eli was treated by some "fans" was pretty fucking embarrassing.
So true. We have some many Samsung GM's here who make all there personnel evaluations and decide for the team based on snippets of two-inch tall guys.
Yes the coaches and GM mindset is different but moreso with regard to time because even though there are 53 guys, their options to change things is limited.
Wow! You are highlighting a 5th round pick. I guess Anthony Munoz is right there on our team before our eyes but we don't know it?
And many 3rd round picks turn out to be nothing more than mediocre at best - but not our guy says you, an unbias Giants fan, right?
And wow - we have Nate Solder!! Thank you for bringing up such a former "stellar New York Giant performer," that so great to look forward to.
When you make a comment about a "Great Wall" - did you happen to mention how the Giants supposed "Great Wall" might be made of sandstone?
The fact you mentioned "Great Wall" at all- thanks for the laugh.
Let me put it this way.
When the coaches are watching film, and let's say a particular play ends with D Jones getting hit and fumbling.... Their main concern isn't the fumble. They're not trying to fix the fumble. They're dissecting the how/what/why of each individual play. You mentioned protection, so we'll start there. 1. Was the play called appropriate vs. what the defense was showing? 2. If so, did the QB and offensive line pick up the proper protection assignments. 3. If so, where was the breakdown? 4. How can we fix that breakdown through scheme or adjusting personnel. The concern is not that Jones fumbled, although the fan would say "Another fumble, no more excuses!" But in actuality, the concern is how to fix why it happened in the moment. Fix it for the next play, the next series, the next quarter, or next week.
They don't view the breakdown as an "excuse". They view it as something to fix.
Do they want Jones to fumble? No. But that is much farther down the list of what they are trying to correct on any given play.
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They are in a completely different mindset. They have eyes on all facets of what's going on out there and trying to fix things. They evaluate players and try to put them in positions to succeed.
They don't subscribe to ultimatums like "no more excuses". It's a completely different mindset.
100% accurate!
Uh, have you watched Mara's state of union this year?
He's basically said no more excuses, and largely driven by a big offseason spending spree.
Further, if the GM and HC aren't more in that no more excuses mindset than we have, IMV, the wrong people in those jobs. Figure it out now.
Most ESPN viewers don't know the names of the linemen on the teams that they don't root for. ESPN is well aware of this and of the fact that unless a lineman is accused of murder or sodomy (preferably sodomy) the average ESPN viewer will switch channels about 15 seconds after the beginning of any discussion about other teams' linemen.
- not seeing Slayton wide open for free access TDs
- being late and slow delivering the football in the red zone
- seeing the field poorly pre and post snap
- poor mechanics and ball security in the pocket
- a general lack of pocket awareness that makes the OL's job harder
The Giants coaches see these things too, I'm sure. And I'm sure they're trying to fix these things as well.
Blaming the OL for Jones's performance may be comforting, but it's not the truth.
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In comment 15270729 Britt in VA said:
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They are in a completely different mindset. They have eyes on all facets of what's going on out there and trying to fix things. They evaluate players and try to put them in positions to succeed.
They don't subscribe to ultimatums like "no more excuses". It's a completely different mindset.
100% accurate!
Uh, have you watched Mara's state of union this year?
He's basically said no more excuses, and largely driven by a big offseason spending spree.
Further, if the GM and HC aren't more in that no more excuses mindset than we have, IMV, the wrong people in those jobs. Figure it out now.
I think an owner telling a HC/GM "no more excuses" on a macro level is different than what's being talked about here.
The new weapons will help and there may be some games where they really pay dividends. But, overall, over 17 games, if the OL isn't significantly better (that's how bad they've been) this offense will still struggle and Jones, in particular, will still struggle. He will still take too many hits, leading to turnovers and low 3rd down conversion rates. Until we prove we can stop it and make teams pay, they will continue to throw the kitchen sink at Jones.
I want to be 100% clear. This isn't to say I think Jones is or will be without blame. I am not sold either way. I just think the lack of a real OL has been and will continue to be a thorn in our side. Maybe Thomas, Lemieux, Hernandez, and Peart all progress and improve and Gates can either maintain his level of play or improve. But, look at that statement. We are relying on at least 4/5 of our OL to hake great strides and we still don't really know what camp will look like. This is a big leap of faith.
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While I thought it was ridiculous to hold Jones accountable for 2020 because of....everything. I feel like some some of you are trying to bake excuses in.
Jones played worse than Pisarchik in 2020. I can't have that in 2021. If he does it again, they need to ship him the fuck out of here. I am not suggesting he has to be the MVP but he has to be markedly better in 2021.
We can trade for a veteran or move up to draft one. If we are sitting at 12 or higher, do whatever it takes to get a new one. If Daniel Jones doesn't like that, he can win some fucking games by elevating those around him with great play.
Yes, he played rather terribly the beginning of the season, until he got his bearings and was moving us quite well PRE-INJURY, even with our mediocre OL..Comparing his output to Piscarcik once he got his bearings before the hammy and Ankle injuries is silly and very unfair, imv
The best part is. I think he going to shock people with how well he plays. That said:
My opinion is just an opinion.
I am tired of losing BB56. Really tired. I believe they put their money where their mouths are. They invested a significant amount of resources in place for him to succeed. Of course isn't perfect, but it never is.
It is firmly within his power to keep this job. I will be rooting like hell for him.
- not seeing Slayton wide open for free access TDs
- being late and slow delivering the football in the red zone
- seeing the field poorly pre and post snap
- poor mechanics and ball security in the pocket
- a general lack of pocket awareness that makes the OL's job harder
The Giants coaches see these things too, I'm sure. And I'm sure they're trying to fix these things as well.
Blaming the OL for Jones's performance may be comforting, but it's not the truth.
Well, they must not be seeing them enough in their offseason evaluation to consider not moving forward with Jones.
As I said above, the new weapons are certain to help. I'm sure there will be a few games where this offense explodes and I'm sure Golladay, Toney, Rudolph, etc. will play a big role in that. But, we can't point to a few big games and ignore the majority of games where we struggle to convert and score. We've been doing that for years. Hell, the rumor is that Gettleman based his entire first Giants offseason on 1 game of film from Eli, ignoring the other 15 games from that season. This will all start and end up front.
I think the 2nd half of the year is an illusion considering the Godawful division we were in and the crummy opponents and the lack of a game breaker which means there was no fear in the Giants run game.
That's the concern. When the Giants went 5-3 in their last 8 - one was a super game vs Seattle but 3 other wins were in their crummy division - a division regarded as the worst ever in Modern NFL History- and one win vs the crummy Bengals. Hardly a ringing endorsement.
As far as Hernandez- I hope you're right- but KI think your blue shade goggles are wrapped to tight around your forehead. I hope you're right.
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The "fan" is screaming about:
- not seeing Slayton wide open for free access TDs
- being late and slow delivering the football in the red zone
- seeing the field poorly pre and post snap
- poor mechanics and ball security in the pocket
- a general lack of pocket awareness that makes the OL's job harder
The Giants coaches see these things too, I'm sure. And I'm sure they're trying to fix these things as well.
Blaming the OL for Jones's performance may be comforting, but it's not the truth.
Well, they must not be seeing them enough in their offseason evaluation to consider not moving forward with Jones.
Maybe. Maybe they just didn't like the alternatives realistically available to them. Or maybe there are still people in decision making capacities whose jobs are tied to Jones being the QB. We don't know.
All we really know is what Jones has produced in his two seasons as a pro. And that speaks for itself.
David Carr was a top pick who got wrecked by a terrible OL in Houston. Did anyone care when he was eventually let go?
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In comment 15270729 Britt in VA said:
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They are in a completely different mindset. They have eyes on all facets of what's going on out there and trying to fix things. They evaluate players and try to put them in positions to succeed.
They don't subscribe to ultimatums like "no more excuses". It's a completely different mindset.
100% accurate!
Uh, have you watched Mara's state of union this year?
He's basically said no more excuses, and largely driven by a big offseason spending spree.
Further, if the GM and HC aren't more in that no more excuses mindset than we have, IMV, the wrong people in those jobs. Figure it out now.
I don't believe that it has much to do with Britt's point.
It may have to do with Judge's job security but nothing to do with what the coaches are looking at or how they evaluate play.
It's media/fan speak.
Several third year quarterbacks (Mahomes, Jackson, Watson, Allen) have played excellent football while leading their teams to division titles and the playoffs. It's perfectly reasonable to expect the same from Jones at this point.
I usually agree with a lot of what you say - but if that OL stinks - which it may very do--
then you're full of crap if you believe it's all on Jones.
Do you really believe OL's don't matter to QB's? What if the OL stinks? Not average -- but - STINKS.
I believe the Giants are entering 2021 with a major problem in the OL-Jones-Garrett relationship:
1. I don't think the starting OL is particularly good at pass blocking...particularly Lemieux and Hernandez. The tackles and the center are question marks...though I think the center may be the best of the bunch.
2. I think Jones's flaws are fundamental to his game, and are observable going back to Duke. I don't think his are the kinds of problems that you come to the NFL to fix. I think as long as he's the quarterback you've got to work around those flaws and play to his strengths (speed & ability to deliver the ball accurately to his first read). Which leads me to...
3. I think Garrett is a terrible marriage for Jones. Garrett wants to deliver the ball downfield off play action. That means pass protecting (a problem for our OL) for a quarterback who is in the pocket (a problem for Jones).
I think there's an alternate universe where Jones can be an effective enough (though upper echelon) QB...one focused on getting him out of the pocket and the ball out of his hands (or him running it) quickly. I think that could work. But that's not the current reality.
However, the success of the season still falls on Jones. Sure, it could get more challenging if the OL is inconsistent. But Jones is the 6th pick so he needs to figure it out.
It's a heavy burden being an NFL QB, especially a high investment...
Bullcrap.
How can you and terps ignore the OL to the degree you're doing other than a passing sentence on this subject? I'd expect this from the DG homers, but not the both of you. You've even been a heavy advocate for addressing the OL and you were very disappointed it was not addressed - and now it no longer matters or only a passing sentence you remark about it and then blow it off like it doesn't exist?
Saying that "Jones needs to figure it out," is like saying Julius Randle needs to figure out how to outplay all 3 of Durant, Harden, and Irving.
You and Terps know Jones is a pocket passer, don't you? How often will a pocket passer be good if his OL stinks? SO what are you going to do- throw all-time great QB's at me? C'mon if the OL stinks Jones can't be good. He's built for the pocket- not for being "Mahomes."
Wow-- you're another one taking advantage of legal marijuana for sale in some states? You must have some pretty fine "stuff."
135 yards rushing -- and with all the passing we would potential have? hahahhahahahahahahahaha Wow!!!!
Just wow!!!!!!!
Jones played worse than Pisarchik in 2020. I can't have that in 2021. If he does it again, they need to ship him the fuck out of here. I am not suggesting he has to be the MVP but he has to be markedly better in 2021.
We can trade for a veteran or move up to draft one. If we are sitting at 12 or higher, do whatever it takes to get a new one. If Daniel Jones doesn't like that, he can win some fucking games by elevating those around him with great play.
You're scaring me because you seem to want to ignore the OL in football as if it doesn't matter.
If teh OL is good or even "decent enough" I think you'd get very arguments. But you just want to completely discount the importance of an OL because you only want to look at last year's Jones performance is pretty mind-boggling.
Every team has position(s) where one injury puts them in a crisis situation due to salary cap and roster limitations. Who do the Ravens have at QB if Lamar Jackson gets injured? How about Green Bay at WR if Davante Adams is out again?
I know some would say that gratification is overdue since we really have sucked for about ten years, but that is also the inability to separate pre-2018 and post 2018. I understand how all that losing could get lumped together, but they have to be looked at as two different eras.
This was not about Daniel Jones. It was a direct response (which I quoted) to Daniel, who wrote:
I really think we underestimate how big a deal it was to go into a new year with a new C that never played before there, and a rookie OLT that had 0 preseason games. Then we faced tough Ds right away, and SB got hurt. I think the OL and Jones improved after the first few games as they settled in. Imagine if those first few games were preseason, we’d have hit the ground in much better OL shape.
I hate the narrative that it’s all on DJ, and if he’s not Tom Brady now he suxed. The question is whether he’s developing, and continuing to develop. Same with the rest of the team. It may not happen instantly. As long as it’s moving forward it will be a relief after a decade of treading water.
I was talking exclusively about his point about the offensive line.
Blaming the OL for Jones's performance may be comforting, but it's not the truth.
Ignoring how bad the OL was is nothing more thna burying one's head in the sand.
If you think the OL is improved then great, it might be. But not to acknowledge that it was bad and still might be a big question is the definition of what we get get from the Giant brass- and that's burying your head in the sand.
You're acting like Mara and Gettleman of the recent past if this is so.
If you think the OL is improved then great, it might be.
It's abundantly clear that he doesn't think that.
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While I thought it was ridiculous to hold Jones accountable for 2020 because of....everything. I feel like some some of you are trying to bake excuses in.
Jones played worse than Pisarchik in 2020. I can't have that in 2021. If he does it again, they need to ship him the fuck out of here. I am not suggesting he has to be the MVP but he has to be markedly better in 2021.
We can trade for a veteran or move up to draft one. If we are sitting at 12 or higher, do whatever it takes to get a new one. If Daniel Jones doesn't like that, he can win some fucking games by elevating those around him with great play.
You're scaring me because you seem to want to ignore the OL in football as if it doesn't matter.
If teh OL is good or even "decent enough" I think you'd get very arguments. But you just want to completely discount the importance of an OL because you only want to look at last year's Jones performance is pretty mind-boggling.
True or not?
Was Thomas a lot better in the second half or more like a bust?
I watched games, I thought Daniel Jones had time in the second half of the year. I expect the Thomas to improve as do I expect, WH, SL, Peart to better. Zeitler will hurt some, but htat wasn't All Pro Zeitler anymore. I think Solder ~ Flemming with potential to be batter. Fulton is decent depth. Gates is in Year 2.
I am flat out saying that is going to have to be good enough and a franchise QB would elevate them. Time to put or shut up. Not asking him to be an All Pro. I am asking that he not suck so bad that we pick top 12. That is a pretty low fucking bar. If he can't get over it, he can GTFO.
But there was no question we needed better receivers, edge rushers, and depth in the D-backfield.
Right?
Right?
Yes, that is my take away.
What if the O-line is playing well, and likewise Jones is playing well. The Giants start 6-2, hypothetically.
Then, Thomas goes down with a season ender. Then another linemen goes down for a season ender or extended time...
Excuse? Or just reality of the situation?
SO if the OL stinks. You see it for yourself that it is bad - then you don't care ONE IOTA how good Jones looks when he has time or if when his OL plays decent enough that he looks good?
None of that would matter one iota?