If you have seen any TV discussions on the New York Giants in the last few weeks, almost universally the same argument is made by every pundit:
"The Giants have done everything to surround Daniel Jones with talent. He is out of excuses. The fate of the team rests with him."
Then many of these same pundits use this as an opportunity to say they don't believe in Daniel Jones and that's why the Giants won't finish first in the NFC East.
While I do think there is a great deal of merit in what they say about how important QB play will be in determining the fate of the Giants, I'm surprised that none of these media discussions have addressed the elephant in the room:
For better or worse, the Giants did very little this offseason in addressing the offensive line, the well-known Achilles heel of the team for the past decade.
Kevin Zeitler was let go. Zach Fulton was added in free agency. Nate Solder returns as insurance depth. Jonotthan Harrison replaces Spencer Pulley as back-up center.
In other words, not much changed. As has been discussed nauseam on BBI, Gettleman and Judge are putting their faith in the new OL coaching (Rob Sale and Pat Flaherty) and the development of the young guys (Thomas, Lemieux, Gates, Peart, and even Hernandez).
But this argument that it is "all on Daniel Jones" doesn't address the fact that the franchise is taking a big gamble by standing pat on the OL. Now I'm optimistic about the OL, but if they don't make a big jump in their play, this offense is still going to have major issues. It won't be as bad as it was last year because the upgrade in the other skill positions has been so dramatic, but the OL still needs to keep Jones upright and open holes for Barkley and the other new running backs.
I just find it extremely odd that every pundit keeps saying, "it's all on Daniel Jones." I would argue, "much depends on Jones and the offensive line."
This OL needs to develop together. Blowing it up every offseason isn't going to get us there
I agree, it’s bizarre. The whole “excuses” thing is so weird to me, its like Jones gets called to the principals office and has a list of things he’s blaming other people for.
“No more excuses” is really just a neat way to describe players that need to play better and there’s a whole lot of them in the NFL.
Can you provide anything that suggests that the Giants organization is not satisfied with Jones?
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The OL unit has 5 starters and a swing tackle that likely gets snaps. The QB unit has one starter.
Can you provide anything that suggests that the Giants organization is not satisfied with Jones?
Nothing pressing. Why?
I’m just glad there’s officially no more excuses.
That's simply not true. During his rookie season, with a gimpy Barkley, a terrible OL, and questionable receiving targets, Jones threw 24 touchdowns in 12 starts with just 12 interceptions. If it weren't for the fumbles, his rookie season would be considered stellar.
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Jones has sucked for the first two years of his career. He needs to not suck in year 3 or there won't be a year 4.
That's simply not true. During his rookie season, with a gimpy Barkley, a terrible OL, and questionable receiving targets, Jones threw 24 touchdowns in 12 starts with just 12 interceptions. If it weren't for the fumbles, his rookie season would be considered stellar.
So after a crappy 2017 and a crappy year one under Getts in 2018, how was the offense left to function in 2019 with one competent RB, a terrible OL and questionable receiving targets?
Or in a different light...if Jones was able to be stellar in 2019 (outside of the fumbling) then he must have at least had a decent running game, OL and receivers...right? Or did he do it himself?
And the OL has been good?
1-- I'll reiterate - I'm with Eric on this thread.
2-- I'm with SY when he spoke of having a huge concern about the interior OL and he stated he would've drafted Slater.
3-- You can google Bill Polian's comments on March 30th that he says the key for the Giants is the Giants OL.
4-- I'm with the poster JonC when he mentions one of the huge questions is the OL.
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Jones has sucked for the first two years of his career. He needs to not suck in year 3 or there won't be a year 4.
That's simply not true. During his rookie season, with a gimpy Barkley, a terrible OL, and questionable receiving targets, Jones threw 24 touchdowns in 12 starts with just 12 interceptions. If it weren't for the fumbles, his rookie season would be considered stellar.
Well he did have the fumbles. And he did only play well in four games that year. And he hasn't beaten a team with a winning record in two years. And he has an 8-18 record as a starter.
If we had some journeyman vet these past two years putting up these performances there wouldn't be a question of a third year. He'd be out on his ass.
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Jones has sucked for the first two years of his career. He needs to not suck in year 3 or there won't be a year 4.
I’m just glad there’s officially no more excuses.
I'm expecting more excuses after next season. Then I expect the excuses to go away when the Giants draft another quarterback, at which point everyone will slowly start claiming they saw all along that Jones couldn't play.
I'm expecting more excuses after next season. Then I expect the excuses to go away when the Giants draft another quarterback, at which point everyone will slowly start claiming they saw all along that Jones couldn't play.
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In comment 15271472 Go Terps said:
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Jones has sucked for the first two years of his career. He needs to not suck in year 3 or there won't be a year 4.
I’m just glad there’s officially no more excuses.
I'm expecting more excuses after next season. Then I expect the excuses to go away when the Giants draft another quarterback, at which point everyone will slowly start claiming they saw all along that Jones couldn't play.
In this scenario the excuses wouldn’t go away, they’d reset to whoever the new QB is. And then we’d be doing this all over again, it’s going to be fun!
I'd call it your daily shit on Jones post.
He absolutely didn't suck as a rookie, no matter how many times you post it over and over again.
The team in January had needs at almost every position. They prioritized WR in free agency and then actively traded down whenever they could in the draft.
Your position is, well, how could so many situations always lead to an OL NOT being taken? It’s a fair point, but my response is: well, actually, there were only a few situations where they chose no OL, so it could very well be chance that resulted in no OL being acquired. With the rumors and DG’s press conference statement, my conclusion is that none of this indicates complete satisfaction with the OL.
Peart only played 15% of 2020 offensive snaps.
Hernandez has never played a pro snap at RG.
One way or the other, for better or worse, the 2021 NYG OL is going to be substantially different from the 2020 version.
I think Judge feels there is some talent with this group. It needs better coaching (hopefully Sale) and time working together. We don't need a great wall on pass plays. We need a offense that is balanced, stays in good down and distance and cuts way down on the 0 or negative runs and jail breaks on pass plays. Many factors have a impact in OL's production. Barkley, Galloday, Rudolph and Toney will help the OL tremendously imv.
I think Judge feels there is some talent with this group. It needs better coaching (hopefully Sale) and time working together. We don't need a great wall on pass plays. We need a offense that is balanced, stays in good down and distance and cuts way down on the 0 or negative runs and jail breaks on pass plays. Many factors have a impact in OL's production. Barkley, Galloday, Rudolph and Toney will help the OL tremendously imv.
The greatest line we've had in the modern era was built that way.
Diehl: 5th round pick
Snee: 2nd round pick
O'hara: Undrafted FA, signed as a FA from Cleveland
Seubert: Undrafted FA
McKenzie: 3rd round pick, signed as a FA from NYJ
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In comment 15271475 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15271472 Go Terps said:
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Jones has sucked for the first two years of his career. He needs to not suck in year 3 or there won't be a year 4.
I’m just glad there’s officially no more excuses.
I'm expecting more excuses after next season. Then I expect the excuses to go away when the Giants draft another quarterback, at which point everyone will slowly start claiming they saw all along that Jones couldn't play.
In this scenario the excuses wouldn’t go away, they’d reset to whoever the new QB is. And then we’d be doing this all over again, it’s going to be fun!
exactly. and the Terps of the world will start all over if they don't pick the guy they wanted.
Win more games then you lose. Score more points.
I think Jones is up for that challenge.
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In comment 15271475 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15271472 Go Terps said:
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Jones has sucked for the first two years of his career. He needs to not suck in year 3 or there won't be a year 4.
I’m just glad there’s officially no more excuses.
I'm expecting more excuses after next season. Then I expect the excuses to go away when the Giants draft another quarterback, at which point everyone will slowly start claiming they saw all along that Jones couldn't play.
In this scenario the excuses wouldn’t go away, they’d reset to whoever the new QB is. And then we’d be doing this all over again, it’s going to be fun!
This is accurate.
Left Tackle is really the only premium position you should chase early in the draft, IMO.
Good points made here. And agree that is how many Olines come together, with a mix of various levels of talent and experience since it is one of the larger positional units on a roster.
Well as has been mentioned MUCH earlier in this thread, this is a unit, literally moreso than any other, that needs time to work together and gel. Constant churning never let's this group settle and find it's stride.
Most other units/groups on the team are only that way in name. But the o-line actually has to work collectively in unison to succeed.
Fucking why?
They troll you on the daily, stop letting them.
2 weeks ago BW and Terps were seemingly frustrated because I thought Jones was going to have a very good 2021. There was no evidence to justify that in their view. I think there is. The players they brought in match his skill set perfectly. The offense can threaten more of the field. Barkley coming back. Having options will help his SY56' famous decision making liability. There is more to it, I don't want to type it all again.
That is my opinion.
I might be wrong. Yep, flat out admitting I am wrong about this stuff sometimes. I am not a professional.
This week in a different discussion I am building on what that opinion might mean.
Because:
The players they brought in match his skill set so well, if he has a 2020 like year, The Giants should move on.
That opinion should not make a lot of noise.
Of course, if the OL is a shit show or the receiving group has 5 starters out it will matter.
How did we get so uptight that I have to preface my opinions with disclaimers?
It is because we let Terps and BW run this board.
We should stop that.
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In comment 15271498 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15271475 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15271472 Go Terps said:
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Jones has sucked for the first two years of his career. He needs to not suck in year 3 or there won't be a year 4.
I’m just glad there’s officially no more excuses.
I'm expecting more excuses after next season. Then I expect the excuses to go away when the Giants draft another quarterback, at which point everyone will slowly start claiming they saw all along that Jones couldn't play.
In this scenario the excuses wouldn’t go away, they’d reset to whoever the new QB is. And then we’d be doing this all over again, it’s going to be fun!
This is accurate.
You guys think we're going to overdraft another quarterback because we view him as Eli 2.0?
I don't see Judge being that stupid.
The greatest line we've had in the modern era was built that way.
Diehl: 5th round pick
Snee: 2nd round pick
O'hara: Undrafted FA, signed as a FA from Cleveland
Seubert: Undrafted FA
McKenzie: 3rd round pick, signed as a FA from NYJ
The risk isn't about how a player was acquired, it's if they are proven NFL caliber players or not. That group only played roughly 2.5 years together -- by the time they laced it up as a unit:
- Diehl was a day one 16 game starter, who had started 4 season and never missed a game
- By 2005 Chris Snee was in the conversation for the better guards in the NFC, by 2007 he had 2 very good seasons under his belt
- By 2007 O'hara had been the Giants starting center for 3 years
- Kareem McKenzie was in the conversation as a top 5 right tackle in the NFL when the Giants acquired him in 2007
The only risky player was Suebert, who had pretty well recovered from his injury.
I don't think that group compares well to this group.
The unequivocal uncertainty about the most important position on the field is by far the most significant challenge facing the Giants this year. The excuses about the OL and/or offensive coordinator may be legitimate reasons leading to team success or failure, but they will not be credible reasons that defend or excuse poor performance by DJ.
Joe Burrow and Justin Herbert had shaky OLs last year and there isn't a single credible football guy who would suggest that either is a question mark going forward. Likewise, no matter how good the OL of Miami or Carolina is, there will be lingering uncertainty about Tua and Darnold unless or until they win a Super Bowl.
The last four games in which I had even a shred of optimism about this team (9/10/2017, 12/13/2020, 12/20/2020 and 12/27/2020) they were disgraced by at least two touchdowns and the games were not nearly as close as the scores. And yet I keep reading about the "great second half improvement of the 2020 season". As a lifelong fan of this great franchise, it is almost embarrassing to read such delusional crap...
So count me in the "Yin" camp until they start winning real football games against good teams during the actual football season.
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Left Tackle is really the only premium position you should chase early in the draft, IMO.
Lane Johnson and Tristan Wirfs have rings that say otherwise. Not to mention the money Kansas City paid Mitchell Schwartz and the Lombardi they won with him at RT.
There are exceptions to every rule.
I think what this team is missing is actually the plug and play vets like O’Hara and McKenzie. Guys with proven NFL pedigree, that certainly got better as part of the unit, but didn’t need to be taught how to play NFL football.
If the Giants had two vets in the prime of their career on this line, who didn’t need ‘coaching up’ — I think that would make all the difference.
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I was talking about acquiring them and coaching them up.
I think what this team is missing is actually the plug and play vets like O’Hara and McKenzie. Guys with proven NFL pedigree, that certainly got better as part of the unit, but didn’t need to be taught how to play NFL football.
If the Giants had two vets in the prime of their career on this line, who didn’t need ‘coaching up’ — I think that would make all the difference.
I'm not so sure those guys exist any more. They've cycled out of the league at this point and the new style of O-linemen, the spread offense style being produced in HS and College, are the vets now.
Zeitler would have classified as that vet pressence, but they let him go so they must like what they see, developmentally.
That’s what I think is missing on this team. The closest thing on this team to that is Hernandez, who has been a mess the last two years.
My view is if the Giants had two proven vets penciled into the starting lineup, I wouldn’t view the group as such a gamble.
I think it’s a big leap of faith Peart, Lemieux, and Hernandez pan out. And I think it’s even more dire if the fall back is Fulton and Solder.
The unequivocal uncertainty about the most important position on the field is by far the most significant challenge facing the Giants this year. The excuses about the OL and/or offensive coordinator may be legitimate reasons leading to team success or failure, but they will not be credible reasons that defend or excuse poor performance by DJ.
Joe Burrow and Justin Herbert had shaky OLs last year and there isn't a single credible football guy who would suggest that either is a question mark going forward. Likewise, no matter how good the OL of Miami or Carolina is, there will be lingering uncertainty about Tua and Darnold unless or until they win a Super Bowl.
The last four games in which I had even a shred of optimism about this team (9/10/2017, 12/13/2020, 12/20/2020 and 12/27/2020) they were disgraced by at least two touchdowns and the games were not nearly as close as the scores. And yet I keep reading about the "great second half improvement of the 2020 season". As a lifelong fan of this great franchise, it is almost embarrassing to read such delusional crap...
So count me in the "Yin" camp until they start winning real football games against good teams during the actual football season.
Frankly, I actually don't mind those who are super-optimistic about Jones going forward. If they see something - real or imagined - that gets them excited, so be it. I just haven't seen enough yet to hitch my wagon to. Or a strong enough case to change my mind. So I have a healthy amount of skepticism.
What bothers me the most, however, is how many suppress the expectations for Jones. I've said it so many times that I have to be on the verge of carpal tunnel syndrome, but there are a core of posters who make it seem like Jones was a 6th round pick, not the 6th overall pick. So they give him a lot of slack for performance. And I just can't subscribe to that because my expectations are that the 6th pick needs to be a legit difference maker and overcome obstacles. Not a player who needs all of this top talent around him to possibly get him to shine.
So that's why I constantly ask what are the expectation for Jones? Give me some idea where he should be statistically. And the most will punt on that and say it's just important that we win and not totally focus on Jones's output. Which is such a copout for the 6th pick in the draft...
MOST, not many, MOST 1st round QB's end up busting.
If Jones becomes a starting QB in the NFL for a significant amount of time for this franchise (and yes, that means above average and significant contributer), then he has beaten the odds.
You keep banging this 6th overall pick drum, and expectations tied to being the 6th overall pick like it's the #1 overall pick or something.
You talk about tempering expectations and then turn around and heap unrealistic expectations onto Jones because he was drafted 6th.
Do fans even know what stats or metrics are important anyway? We still have a poster who uses AY/A continually here to apply to a QB where football people use it to measure offensive efficiency.
I can say Jones needs to have 30 TD's this year, but what the fuck does it matter if he throws 26TD's and the team makes the playoffs. Or that he throws 40TD's and we miss the playoffs?
Do fans even know what stats or metrics are important anyway? We still have a poster who uses AY/A continually here to apply to a QB where football people use it to measure offensive efficiency.
I can say Jones needs to have 30 TD's this year, but what the fuck does it matter if he throws 26TD's and the team makes the playoffs. Or that he throws 40TD's and we miss the playoffs?
40 TDs and missing the playoffs would be quite fine for some..It’s the Stats, Fats.
Get the QB and Head Coach right with a system of drafting OL while remaining cost effective at the positional group and you give your team a chance to be competitive every year. Hopefully you break through a couple times when the other parts align. It is not easy but I think this is the way that franchises stay competitive. You can pick up comp picks as decent players get overpaid elsewhere. I think this is where the Giants will attempt to go.
I half believe some posters would rather have Herbert or Murray, even if it meant the team missed the playoffs. They'd just turn their disdain elsewhere.
On whose shoulders goes the blame lie for losing the game?
MOST, not many, MOST 1st round QB's end up busting.
If Jones becomes a starting QB in the NFL for a significant amount of time for this franchise (and yes, that means above average and significant contributer), then he has beaten the odds.
You keep banging this 6th overall pick drum, and expectations tied to being the 6th overall pick like it's the #1 overall pick or something.
You talk about tempering expectations and then turn around and heap unrealistic expectations onto Jones because he was drafted 6th.
You do realize the 6th pick in the draft is only five spots away from the #1 pick. Right?
How, exactly, have my expectations been unreasonable? I'm all ears on this one.
For '21, for example, I did basic math based on where we likely need to be if we want to qualify for the playoffs, based on PPG the last three years, and Jones, as the QB, should be expected to throw at least 30TDs passes. From there, I expect at least a 65% completion %, 2:1 TD/INT ratio and a YPA of at least 7.3 (using the rest of the league to find a benchmark).
These aren't Mahomes, Rodgers, or Wilson levels. They are in fact reasonable. And more reasonable than most on this board.
Unreasonable...just LOFL.
The prevailing opinion around here at the time was, "Damn, the kid did great given the shitty offensive line." It wasn't just the 2-to-1 TD-to-INT ratio (and a franchise record 24 TDs for a rookie QB). It wasn't just the comeback victories against the Bucs and Redskins. It was the incredible throws he made under duress even in losing efforts.
We were all told the book on him coming out of college was that he wasn't a good deep ball passer, yet we were almost all impressed by his incredibly accurate deep ball time and time again (beginning in the preseason).
The only serious knock on him his rookie season by pundits and fans was the ridiculous fumbling. And the 2020 offseason debate was whether or not that could be fixed or not. People were not arguing that offseason that Jones could not throw the ball. To say otherwise is revisionist.