If you have seen any TV discussions on the New York Giants in the last few weeks, almost universally the same argument is made by every pundit:
"The Giants have done everything to surround Daniel Jones with talent. He is out of excuses. The fate of the team rests with him."
Then many of these same pundits use this as an opportunity to say they don't believe in Daniel Jones and that's why the Giants won't finish first in the NFC East.
While I do think there is a great deal of merit in what they say about how important QB play will be in determining the fate of the Giants, I'm surprised that none of these media discussions have addressed the elephant in the room:
For better or worse, the Giants did very little this offseason in addressing the offensive line, the well-known Achilles heel of the team for the past decade.
Kevin Zeitler was let go. Zach Fulton was added in free agency. Nate Solder returns as insurance depth. Jonotthan Harrison replaces Spencer Pulley as back-up center.
In other words, not much changed. As has been discussed nauseam on BBI, Gettleman and Judge are putting their faith in the new OL coaching (Rob Sale and Pat Flaherty) and the development of the young guys (Thomas, Lemieux, Gates, Peart, and even Hernandez).
But this argument that it is "all on Daniel Jones" doesn't address the fact that the franchise is taking a big gamble by standing pat on the OL. Now I'm optimistic about the OL, but if they don't make a big jump in their play, this offense is still going to have major issues. It won't be as bad as it was last year because the upgrade in the other skill positions has been so dramatic, but the OL still needs to keep Jones upright and open holes for Barkley and the other new running backs.
I just find it extremely odd that every pundit keeps saying, "it's all on Daniel Jones." I would argue, "much depends on Jones and the offensive line."
He cuts down on the Fumbles. He has a decent TD/IN ratio. He's making plays with his legs, and passing efficiently. He makes a couple of clutch throws in big spots.
Do you have a rough sense of what you’d consider improvement?
I would argue yes because it is clear that his ceiling is too low to legitimately compete for an NFL Super Bowl.
Absolutely. And he's been a better player than Jones.
I have no doubts that if Jones were on another team he'd be held in very low esteem on BBI.
Quote:
How do you measure if Jones is showing improvement?
He cuts down on the Fumbles. He has a decent TD/IN ratio. He's making plays with his legs, and passing efficiently. He makes a couple of clutch throws in big spots.
Do you have a rough sense of what you’d consider improvement?
For what purpose?
If Saquon Barkley runs for 200 yards and 3 TD's in a game next year and we win comfortably 24-7, but Jones manages the game efficiently and only throws for 100 yards 0 TD's and 1 INT off the hands of Evan Engram does it matter?
Daniel Jones is not Aaron Rodgers or Patrick Mahomes. You might be able to do that with guys like that over the course of 10 years.
But doing it at this point, for Daniel Jones, is useless.
The main thing he needs to do at this point is improve. You'll know it when you see it, and you'll know it if you don't.
Big Blue Blogger said:
Britt in VA said:
That's true. I would suggest that perhaps Marcus Cannon is the exception (as the Brady/Belichick Pats were the exception to many rules), and championship teams with premium RTs like Wirfs and Johnson are becoming the rule.
That said, I feel much better about our RT situation this year, now that Peart has a year under his belt and Solder is around to (we hope) set a higher floor than Fleming. Cam was more of a known quantity than the post-opt-out Solder, but the quantity he was known as was JAG.
If you’re going to define success, at least back it up with even a general measure.
I’d like to see Jones have 3:2 total TD to total turnover ratio, generate 200+ first downs, be in the top 15 in total yards by a QB, and the Giants win 8 games. If he’s not +/- 10% within those measures I think the Giants should draft a new QB on round one.
Daniel Jones is not Aaron Rodgers or Patrick Mahomes. You might be able to do that with guys like that over the course of 10 years.
But doing it at this point, for Daniel Jones, is useless.
The main thing he needs to do at this point is improve. You'll know it when you see it, and you'll know it if you don't.
Jones can improve a lot and still only be a middle of the road NFL starter.
If you haven't already bought a #8 jersey, I would hold off. In 3 years there's a good chance it's a relic, because I don't see any way he gets a second contract here.
If you’re going to define success, at least back it up with even a general measure.
I’d like to see Jones have 3:2 total TD to total turnover ratio, generate 200+ first downs, be in the top 15 in total yards by a QB, and the Giants win 8 games. If he’s not +/- 10% within those measures I think the Giants should draft a new QB on round one.
We just view the game very differently. You are clearly heavily skewed toward the mathematical results element and I'm more skewed to the strategic/athletic matchup/human element.
All I want is the Giants to win.
I was worried about that until they traded for Chicago's first round pick.
I'm pretty confident someone like Joe Judge is looking at both the data and the subjective components to determine if someone has played well and whether they are part of the future.
I'm pretty confident someone like Joe Judge is looking at both the data and the subjective components to determine if someone has played well and whether they are part of the future.
As am I. And despite Daniel Jones' statistical performance last season, and I'm certain he's watched and rewatched all the tape from 2018 and 2019 on Jones, in order to add context to that rigid statistical information.
At this point, he seems confident Jones is part of the future, despite the statistical information that should indicate he's not.
I'd be careful reading into what any coach says. There's nothing to be gained by being publicly critical of Jones. Judge is too smart for that.
I find the trade for Chicago's pick more telling than anything Judge says. The Giants have placed themselves in prime position to get a quarterback in the 2022 draft, or trade for the right veteran if the opportunity avails itself.
Quote:
At this point, he seems confident Jones is part of the future, despite the statistical information that should indicate he's not.
I'd be careful reading into what any coach says. There's nothing to be gained by being publicly critical of Jones. Judge is too smart for that.
I find the trade for Chicago's pick more telling than anything Judge says. The Giants have placed themselves in prime position to get a quarterback in the 2022 draft, or trade for the right veteran if the opportunity avails itself.
You honestly believe that they traded out of #11 because of Jones? Geez.
The Giants traded down.
I would put a great deal of stock into JJs positive comments re: DJ.
One comment I think was a great insight into at least how Judge thinks, was when he said the Giants need better weapons and better coaching.
I think Judge is systematically going through the order of operations. I suspect the next shoe to drop would be Garrett if things don’t improve.
Quote:
Let me get this straight - it's "trolling" expecting Jones to throw 30 TD passes, either over 16 games or 17 games.
Each simple division exercise using either 16 or 17 games as the denominator results in LESS than 2 TDs per game.
Again, what a burdensome ask...
What a "troll"...
I think the more interesting question (one I doubt you’ll get an answer to) — is what are the measures you think would keep Jones from keeping his job beyond 2021?
This of course requires taking a stance and generating an opinion.
Why is it an interesting question? Do we decide Jones' future? Taking a stance on something you don't control sure seems like a great exercise.
It's also reasonable to take what Judge actually says at face value.
New York Giants head coach Joe Judge has sounded like a broken record at times, frequently praising quarterback Daniel Jones and insisting the team is committed to 23-year-old.
Even as the NFL’s quarterback carousel began to spin this offseason, Judge didn’t blink.
“We have confidence in Daniel, he’s a player that we want to work with going forward with this team. He’s shown us a lot of improvement, there’s a lot of things. I can go on and on about how we respect him and like him and how the locker room responds to him, but the simple answer to that is no, [our stance on Jones has not changed],” Judge told reporters at the start of free agency.
No matter how many times Judge repeats himself, there seems to be a slew of disbelievers — people who think the coach is merely toting the company line.
Judge has never once given that impression, but for those who flat-out refuse to see the positives in Jones, they simply can not buy into what they are hearing. In private, they thought, there’s no way Judge is such a staunch Jones supporter.
Unsurprisingly, it turns out those naysayers are wrong.
Retired NFL wide receiver and current media personality, Nate Burleson, recently sat down with Judge as their sons played a basketball game for Don Bosco Prep. One of the first questions Burleson asked Judge was about Jones.
Judge didn’t hesitate in response to Burleson’s question, immediately pointing out that the team needs to do more in their support of Jones.
“I asked him what’s going on with Daniel Jones, and he said ‘It’s up to us to help him out with coaching and getting him more weapons,'” Burleson told the New York Post.
It’s one of the reasons why the Giants went out and signed superstar wide receiver Kenny Golladay and signed running back Devontae Booker to back up Saquon Barkley. It’s also why they added tight end Kyle Rudolph and speedy wide receiver John Ross.
It’s clear that Judge and the Giants have meant what they’ve said about Jones. You can see it in their personnel moves and now, finally, you have proof that Judge is saying the same things privately that he’s saying publicly.
Giants' Joe Judge offers support of Daniel Jones publicly and privately - ( New Window )
Quote:
Quote:
At this point, he seems confident Jones is part of the future, despite the statistical information that should indicate he's not.
I'd be careful reading into what any coach says. There's nothing to be gained by being publicly critical of Jones. Judge is too smart for that.
I find the trade for Chicago's pick more telling than anything Judge says. The Giants have placed themselves in prime position to get a quarterback in the 2022 draft, or trade for the right veteran if the opportunity avails itself.
You honestly believe that they traded out of #11 because of Jones? Geez.
I think he honestly does believe that. Based on the frequency in which tells the board that Jones sucks.
I believe Judge is committed to DJ this year, barring injury or complete failure. But I also believe he'll pivot if Jones has another mediocre season, he's not tied to him in the way DG is
Bud Judge also strikes me as the type of guy that will do everything in his power to help you succeed but that won't stop him from pivoting if it isn't working.
And that's where I think he's at with Jones, and the rest of the team/staff for that matter.
Quote:
A guy who had decent stats, made the pro bowl and led the team to the playoffs?
I would argue yes because it is clear that his ceiling is too low to legitimately compete for an NFL Super Bowl.
Absolutely. And he's been a better player than Jones.
I have no doubts that if Jones were on another team he'd be held in very low esteem on BBI.
After their first two years, it's very close between Jones and Trubisky. May actually be a dead heat in some respects.
However, Trubisky may get the edge because he actually improved from YR1 to YR2. Jones, at best, stayed flat.
Just based on the eye-test, I'd probably still go Jones. Watching Trubisky plan QB is painful.
Quote:
Let me get this straight - it's "trolling" expecting Jones to throw 30 TD passes, either over 16 games or 17 games.
Each simple division exercise using either 16 or 17 games as the denominator results in LESS than 2 TDs per game.
Again, what a burdensome ask...
What a "troll"...
I think the more interesting question (one I doubt you’ll get an answer to) — is what are the measures you think would keep Jones from keeping his job beyond 2021?
This of course requires taking a stance and generating an opinion.
I've asked that before actually. Most of the replies have typically tied Jones to wins and playoffs.
That's doesn't quite add up for me. I want to see true individual improvement that can be measured in some statistical form. The division is so up in the air with such an unimpressive cast of QBs outside of Dallas, we could make the playoffs by having a dominant D. And with Jones really doing playing to an average level. The Trubisky Model...right?
At which point, his future would be back on the table in my view...
Unless of course they’re not really fine with it...
Unless of course they’re not really fine with it...
What I find interesting are the posters who seem to have no problem projecting production for Barkley, Galloway, Toney, etc.
However, the two sacred cows around here when it comes to expectations are DJ and LW.
God forbid we have any expectations for our franchise QB or for one of the highest paid defensive players in the league...
Unless of course they’re not really fine with it...
This your post on the reasonable expectation thread?
Jimmy Googs : 2:21 pm : link : reply
they lose.
Reasonable expectations for Daniel Jones is to be one of the main reasons behind that happening. Getting the Offense to score on average around 25 points per game would be a decent target. Assume his stats will follow accordingly.
This is in line with everything I've been saying on this thread.
Why do I need to provide appropriate TD/INT ratios and/or TD thresholds that Jones need to meet in order to deemed successful or not?
I pretty much agree with what you just said exactly. Why isn't that enough?
Jimminy Cricket, some of you act like Jones shouldn’t expect to be held accountable for wins and loses. He’s an NFL QB1, it’s his job to win football games. Why wouldn’t “it all come down to him”? Furthermore, I’m fairly certain Jones wants it all to come down to him. Has there ever been a great NFL QB that didn’t want it to all come down to him? I don’t think so.
Which is EXACTLY what I've been arguing on THIS thread. Then you call out people for being unwilling to put numbers on it.
I don't care what you've posted in the past. Today, you said it was reasonable to expect the stats to fall in line with the rest, which is all I've been saying.
Now you're switching back to putting actual numbers on it?
Jimminy Cricket, some of you act like Jones shouldn’t expect to be held accountable for wins and loses. He’s an NFL QB1, it’s his job to win football games. Why wouldn’t “it all come down to him”? Furthermore, I’m fairly certain Jones wants it all to come down to him. Has there ever been a great NFL QB that didn’t want it to all come down to him? I don’t think so.
Read the thread for context.
Winning games is probably the most reasonable barometer being used here.
People seem to want exact stat lines and statistical thresholds for some reason.
Quote:
targets or expectations for Jones and/or the Offense? You read all the time on here that posters are fine being wrong with opinions and projections, so why all dug in on this one?
Unless of course they’re not really fine with it...
What I find interesting are the posters who seem to have no problem projecting production for Barkley, Galloway, Toney, etc.
However, the two sacred cows around here when it comes to expectations are DJ and LW.
God forbid we have any expectations for our franchise QB or for one of the highest paid defensive players in the league...
Can you point to any posters who project production for some players but not others or is this just another made up scenario??
I'm still trying to figure out what it matters by fans giving projections. It literally means nothing. The better question is why are some of you stuck on demanding stat predictions for DJ?
Because that is happening on this thread by several posters. Not some happy horseshit about posters projecting stats for certain players and not others.
Quote:
targets or expectations for Jones and/or the Offense? You read all the time on here that posters are fine being wrong with opinions and projections, so why all dug in on this one?
Unless of course they’re not really fine with it...
What I find interesting are the posters who seem to have no problem projecting production for Barkley, Galloway, Toney, etc.
However, the two sacred cows around here when it comes to expectations are DJ and LW.
God forbid we have any expectations for our franchise QB or for one of the highest paid defensive players in the league...
Basically, a J Allen year 3 leap. I will be going after him late in Fantasy drafts. I think I can steal a few leagues.
Basically, a J Allen year 3 leap. I will be going after him late in Fantasy drafts. I think I can steal a few leagues.
As long as the TD/INT ratio is in line with 2:1, and the fumbles are basically cut in half, that output should get us to the PPG needed to compete for a playoff spot.
I agree re: circumstances. On paper, we do have a very challenging out of conference road schedule...
Can you point to any posters who project production for some players but not others or is this just another made up scenario??
I'm still trying to figure out what it matters by fans giving projections. It literally means nothing. The better question is why are some of you stuck on demanding stat predictions for DJ?
Because that is happening on this thread by several posters. Not some happy horseshit about posters projecting stats for certain players and not others.
Then don't participate.
And why would you find it so unusual for fans to target a PPG threshold needed to gain a playoff spot, based on recent prior years, and then to project out where those points likely need to come from? Since the QB is the centerpiece of any NFL offense, it would seem logical to expect that position to create most of the points.
How about refraining from making shit up like this:
However, the two sacred cows around here when it comes to expectations are DJ and LW.
Who are these posters, and if they choose to "don't participate" shouldn't that be OK, or is it just more hypocrisy from the resident Hypocrite here?
Either agree with bw, or stop posting.
Discussing stats as a measure of a QB is so sensibility offending, we need this guy to bust through the wall and shut this shit down.
How about refraining from making shit up like this:
Quote:
What I find interesting are the posters who seem to have no problem projecting production for Barkley, Galloway, Toney, etc.
However, the two sacred cows around here when it comes to expectations are DJ and LW.
Who are these posters, and if they choose to "don't participate" shouldn't that be OK, or is it just more hypocrisy from the resident Hypocrite here?
I don't have any issue with those who choose not to participate. What I have an issue with is with those who are so aghast - like you, of course - with anyone would dare try to project production from our QB.
Just do a search and you will see plenty of posters who project what they expect from SB (if healthy), Golladay, etc.
And it’s a process. The Giants got (they hope) their QB in 2019 and addressed the OL in 2020. They also had what, at least on paper, looks like a great off-season this year in which they significantly upgraded the offensive skill positions with the addition of Golladay, Toney, Ross and Rudolph, who hopefully will combine with returning guys like Saquon, Shepard and Slaton to give the Giants what could be one of the most explosive groups in the league. They also upgraded at the corner (although I’d still like to see them add another 3-4 veteran CB) as well as improved (hopefully) the pass rush with the drafting of Ojulari and Elerson Smith and the FA signing of Odenigbo, although they still don’t have that dominating speed rusher. Indeed, everything else being equal, it is very likely the Giants go into the 2022 draft targeting another ER of some ilk with one of their 2 first round picks.
From a personnel perspective, the goal of 2021 will be to find out exactly what the Giants have in Jones at QB and up front on the OL. And the issue with Jones isn’t so much whether he’s a bust or not, but how good can he be! Because in order to get to your stated goal you really want your QB to have a pretty high ceiling. The sense I have is that the Giants feel that he has the physical tools as well as the mental makeup to be a good one. Now can he put it together and play the game at the speed at which the NFL game is played. If at the end of the year they figure he can’t – or can’t well enough – they are well positioned to try again at the position at next year’s draft. Same along the OL. I think they feel that the young guys they have the physical ability to play at the NFL level and it’s a prove it year. Again if they don’t they have the resources to re-address the situation in the 2022 draft. And even if they don’t have to, you’d like to see the Giants use a couple of those 7 first 4 round picks next April on the OL. In this day and age of free agency you are pretty much going to turn the bulk of your OL over every 5 years or so and you’d like to re-establish something of a pipeline of decent young OL coming in every year or so down the road.
In the meantime give that unfortunately the Giants haven't asked for my input I shall watch the season this fall because its why they play the games!
I know it assaults your sensabilities to actually challenge bw. I'll let others figure out why that is.
Should I come up with a meme for those astute posters who just fancy themselves as critical thinkers here, even though they are just the exact opposite of cheerleaders?
I'd say you're better than this but it's clear over the past few weeks you aren't.
Let me know which posters give expectations for certain players but not others.
Got a search function for that, Gauss?
I know it assaults your sensabilities to actually challenge bw. I'll let others figure out why that is.
Should I come up with a meme for those astute posters who just fancy themselves as critical thinkers here, even though they are just the exact opposite of cheerleaders?
I'd say you're better than this but it's clear over the past few weeks you aren't.
Oh come on red guy, what do you expect when you say something like:
After dissecting what the hell it was you're trying to convey, I think your point is discussing stats is shit?
If it means literally shit to you -- exactly what are you engaging? Seems like deep down maybe it doesn't mean literally shit to you and you love it.
Give in, add your thoughts. You know want to.
If the defense is playing well, the run game is killing it, and DJ isn't turning the ball over that's a helluva makeup for winning football. In the playoffs you need the QB to make the leap for production, of course this will be his first playoff start, so tempered expectations there. Some will say these are 'excuses'. I'll counter that with the fact that tons of guys, QB most of all, generally don't perform well in their first playoff experience. The examples of this are countless, in fact it's usually par for the course.
Same goes for LW as the centerpiece of the defense and interior disruptor. There's a fuck ton of stuff that he can do to earn his contract that doesn't show up on the stat sheet. As long as he stays healthy, and then you can really judge his importance. He gets hurt, our defense is going to take a step back, I can guarantee it.
Which is EXACTLY what I've been arguing on THIS thread. Then you call out people for being unwilling to put numbers on it.
I don't care what you've posted in the past. Today, you said it was reasonable to expect the stats to fall in line with the rest, which is all I've been saying.
Now you're switching back to putting actual numbers on it?
Huh? Saying the stats will follow and stating what I would expect are still aligned. This is what I expect would follow.
As mentioned, if you can’t take that simple step then you’re being protective for some reason. Are you?
Quote:
targets or expectations for Jones and/or the Offense? You read all the time on here that posters are fine being wrong with opinions and projections, so why all dug in on this one?
Unless of course they’re not really fine with it...
What I find interesting are the posters who seem to have no problem projecting production for Barkley, Galloway, Toney, etc.
However, the two sacred cows around here when it comes to expectations are DJ and LW.
God forbid we have any expectations for our franchise QB or for one of the highest paid defensive players in the league...
Totally agree. You and I both know why this is, people have dug in on these topics and can’t leave themselves exposed in any fashion. I prefer folks get off the fence and give an opinion. It can still be balanced and supported but say something worthy of being read and/or debated.
You and I are not really aligned on DJ, but I see what are saying. However, I am just beside myself at how that moron tried to rebuild this roster that I feel Jones needs more benefit of the doubt. Sticking a young QB into this crappy Offense is all on Gettleman. Jones may not be the guy, but i can live thru another year of him over DG...
How about refraining from making shit up like this:
Quote:
What I find interesting are the posters who seem to have no problem projecting production for Barkley, Galloway, Toney, etc.
However, the two sacred cows around here when it comes to expectations are DJ and LW.
Who are these posters, and if they choose to "don't participate" shouldn't that be OK, or is it just more hypocrisy from the resident Hypocrite here?
Hypocrisy! Your new favorite term in berating posters.
I miss the days that when you used to use Contrarian, Pithy, Ponderous, Fukstick in your daily rants. Until you were embarrassed enough by posters who made enough fun of you being such a chucklehead that you stopped using them.
I do like the Kool-Aid man reference Christian seems to be using lately though. Seems appropriate...don’t you think?
Why do I have to set an arbitrary stat line? It’s worthless.
Here are two 2020 QB’s:
QB1: 4300 yards 31 TD’s 10 INT’s 98 QBR
QB2: 3500 yards 26 TD’s 8 INT’s 96 QBR
Which one do you think had a more successful season?
It’s not even a trick question. Herbert was 7-9 and Mayfield was 11-5 and made the playoffs. Which season would you rather Jones have?
That is why it is arbitrary. This isn’t fantasy football where individual stats generate points (which is where all this is rooted btw), nor is it moneyball.
Football is, was, and always will be the ultimate TEAM game and individual stats will never matter as much as a collective team/unit achieving a common goal.