...amongst Giants fans?
Was thinking about this in the "Cowboys hired McAdoo" thread.
McAdoo had success as the OC and at least one good year as an HC. Shurmur was just bad from the get go.
I'm not saying McAdoo was an amazing HC, but I think it's apparent that when it comes to at least the offensive side of the game, he isn't totally clueless.
Shurmur on the other hand is a class act and a good guy. He just doesn't have the personality to be a head coach. He is a smart football guy, but isn't cut out to be the CEO. I don't blame him, he did his best, the hiring is on the Giants for not seeing that.
So the rep, I believe is about the person that they are, not the stats.
They were trying to win a game, something they weren’t doing much of with Eli.
It s team first. If he felt Geno was a better athlete, giving them a better chance to win, that was more important than Eli s streak.
Quote:
breaking Eli’s streak for Geno Smith has something to do with McAdoo sentiment
They were trying to win a game, something they weren’t doing much of with Eli.
It s team first. If he felt Geno was a better athlete, giving them a better chance to win, that was more important than Eli s streak.
Geno Smith was trash, and he proved to be trash in that game. Terrible excuse-making for a shitty coach.
😂😂😂😂😂. Mannnnn y’all got me rolling today! This was great lmao
Go look at the numbers.
McAdoo strangely gets credit for being HC for Spags' accomplishments with his 2016 defense.
Now, Shurmur was not successful, but his offemse showed some competence. In 28 games, the most points the Giants scored under McAdoo was 28 points.
Shurmur's team scored at least 30 points 5 times in 2018 alone, 40 once.
And some of this has to do with the players they both had (and didn't have). But McAdoo was brought here bc of his offensive acumen and it was an unmitigated failure, while Shurmur's wasn't, despite his other failings.
Without the defense he had in 2016 McAdoo went 2-10 in 2017. You do need good players no matter who you are, but it was clear that Shurmur brought more to the table than McAdoo.
Neither were good head coaches.
McAdoo was the master of the 6 yard out pass on 3rd and 10.
Agreed, I think Shurmur is best suited as a coordinator, but the assistant coaches he had were pretty bad. And I understand he is the one that is responsible for bringing them in. That’s the point, good OC, bad HC. Just like Norv Turner and Spagnuolo for that matter. Not everyone is cut out to be a HC.
McAdoo was the master of the 6 yard out pass on 3rd and 10.
Lol, the Shane Vereen special in 2015. Dump off for 5-6 yards and fall down. Brutal.
Quote:
If Shurmur was handed that defense and Spags he would have been able to break 20 points a game.
Agreed, I think Shurmur is best suited as a coordinator, but the assistant coaches he had were pretty bad. And I understand he is the one that is responsible for bringing them in. That’s the point, good OC, bad HC. Just like Norv Turner and Spagnuolo for that matter. Not everyone is cut out to be a HC.
For sure. But I don't even think he was that good of an OC... lol. I'd say middle of the pack. But leaps and bounds better than MacAdoo
Quote:
In comment 15273525 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
If Shurmur was handed that defense and Spags he would have been able to break 20 points a game.
Agreed, I think Shurmur is best suited as a coordinator, but the assistant coaches he had were pretty bad. And I understand he is the one that is responsible for bringing them in. That’s the point, good OC, bad HC. Just like Norv Turner and Spagnuolo for that matter. Not everyone is cut out to be a HC.
For sure. But I don't even think he was that good of an OC... lol. I'd say middle of the pack. But leaps and bounds better than MacAdoo
McAdoo is the poster boy for someone with little talent falling ass backwards into riches lol. I remember when they hired him, I think it was Mara, said he gave a wonderful PowerPoint presentation on how he would fix the offense.
- Shurmur has pulled off a few miracles — Bradford in 16, Keenum 17, Jones 19
- Most importantly he can dress himself
Side note, between McAdoo and Gettleman, it’s like someone on the staff at all times is obligated to be wearing a shirt or jacket that’s 10 times too big for them.
So I don't think McAdoo was respected much as an X and O's guy nor did he appear to be a good leader. Shurmur was terrible. The talent sucked, but he made poor decisions. I assume he had the respect of his players, but he seemed too timid for a HC. That said, no one questions whether Shurmur knows his stuff.
Personally, I thought both were equally bad for different reasons, but 2016 gave us an exciting year so I try not to bash McAdoo unnecessarily.
His offense was the one that utilized the 11 personnel grouping at a historically high rate
There were many threads about the stark differences in downfield attempts, in route selection and in utilization of backs.
Spot on Fats.
Quote:
Shurmur offense was decent....it was the disaster of the defense.
McAdoo success stems from the defense..that he had little to do with....actually both he and McCarthy seem to benefit from Rogers.
Said it in my previous post, but the Giants offense was pretty good when McAdoo was OC.
Eli's stats actually noticeably improved, although I think a some of that is built into the vastly difference systems Gilbride and McAdoo ran.
It was due to OBJ.. In games OBJ didn't play the Giants offense sucked under McAdoo.. so I doubt McAdoo's playcalling was the difference.. between Kilbride and McAddoo.. I don't think its fair to say McAdoo's offense was better in anyway shape or form..
Quote:
breaking Eli’s streak for Geno Smith has something to do with McAdoo sentiment
They were trying to win a game, something they weren’t doing much of with Eli.
It s team first. If he felt Geno was a better athlete, giving them a better chance to win, that was more important than Eli s streak.
The problem with this statement and logic is he put out contradictory messages. At the same time they said they were evaluating for the future and then also said they were trying to win games. If your trying to evaluate for the future, in no way does Starting Geno make sense. It's debatable, if he gave you any chance to win games and even if he did who cared at that point. The were something like 2 and 9.
It was a fine idea to get Webb some work that year, but he botched the execution horribly.
Judge had the benefit of a true clean slate.
I remain convinced that TC had significant influence over the offenses McAdoo was gameplanning. You look at the differences - personnel packages, motion, deep passing - between BM/TC offenses and BM alone, and they are striking. That is why Shurmur found another job immediately while McAdoo sat on his hands.
Shurmur’s coaching ceiling is a coordinator. He has failed miserably twice and his hiring was a major error
I was wrong on that one.
He played injured, we didn't win Superbowls with the most talented teams in the NFL during his tenure.
We won them with teams that came together. The intangibles of those men mattered more than their 40 times. Easy E was big part of that. A leader of men. You don't have to be loud, you have to put the team before yourself. When the QB does that, you really have something.
Eli should not have been benched for Geno. I really wish that had not happened.
Shurmur has a much longer track record with very accomplished coaches where he had a big part in the offenses success.
Mara was certainly on board with the benching and I think he weaseled out of it putting it on BM. My guess is a divide had already existed regarding Eli's future for at least a couple years.
Geno Smith deserved better? Are you out of your mind?? He had no business starting a game...the entire point of a QB change was the EVALUATE your roster for the next year. The only young player they had at the position of Webb, which not a single fan would have been furious had he have gotten the start.
Its shocking you choose not to see the difference.
Quote:
how "next man up", a phrase with meaning in every other situation in pro football, is not seen as applying in any way to the Eli/Geno/Webb situation. He was the backup. He gets his one shot if they are making a change. Both of these head coaches sucked. Geno Smith deserved better from Giants fans.
Geno Smith deserved better? Are you out of your mind?? He had no business starting a game...the entire point of a QB change was the EVALUATE your roster for the next year. The only young player they had at the position of Webb, which not a single fan would have been furious had he have gotten the start.
Its shocking you choose not to see the difference.
He was the backup QB. The team is losing and Eli is not a part of the solution at this moment. You first hand the reins to the backup QB. Why is that hard to understand?
Quote:
In comment 15273753 BigBluesman said:
Quote:
how "next man up", a phrase with meaning in every other situation in pro football, is not seen as applying in any way to the Eli/Geno/Webb situation. He was the backup. He gets his one shot if they are making a change. Both of these head coaches sucked. Geno Smith deserved better from Giants fans.
Geno Smith deserved better? Are you out of your mind?? He had no business starting a game...the entire point of a QB change was the EVALUATE your roster for the next year. The only young player they had at the position of Webb, which not a single fan would have been furious had he have gotten the start.
Its shocking you choose not to see the difference.
He was the backup QB. The team is losing and Eli is not a part of the solution at this moment. You first hand the reins to the backup QB. Why is that hard to understand?
Hand the reigns to the backup QB for what purpose?
Quote:
In comment 15273843 bLiTz 2k said:
Quote:
In comment 15273753 BigBluesman said:
Quote:
how "next man up", a phrase with meaning in every other situation in pro football, is not seen as applying in any way to the Eli/Geno/Webb situation. He was the backup. He gets his one shot if they are making a change. Both of these head coaches sucked. Geno Smith deserved better from Giants fans.
Geno Smith deserved better? Are you out of your mind?? He had no business starting a game...the entire point of a QB change was the EVALUATE your roster for the next year. The only young player they had at the position of Webb, which not a single fan would have been furious had he have gotten the start.
Its shocking you choose not to see the difference.
He was the backup QB. The team is losing and Eli is not a part of the solution at this moment. You first hand the reins to the backup QB. Why is that hard to understand?
Hand the reigns to the backup QB for what purpose?
To try and win a game because you are losing week after week. See how he does. Maybe put Webb in next week. It never happened and it doesn't matter. It was poorly handled by all parties, but Geno Smith did not deserve all of that hate. And very quietly he was the first black QB to ever start for the Giants. Oakland was probably winning that game regardless.
The only reason you pull your starting QB, a healthy starting QB, in that situation is because you are packing it in for the season and evaluating the future.
The only reason you pull your starting QB, a healthy starting QB, in that situation is because you are packing it in for the season and evaluating the future.
You might disagree on the reasoning for the change, but I maintain that it would have been an insult to every 2nd string LB, OG, WR, CB, whatever, on the team, to skip over the backup QB and put a 3rd string rookie in immediately. And the real reason he didn't start? We know it's because Webb would have been a trainwreck. It was a bad situation but I stick by the depth chart.
Quote:
the game.
The only reason you pull your starting QB, a healthy starting QB, in that situation is because you are packing it in for the season and evaluating the future.
You might disagree on the reasoning for the change, but I maintain that it would have been an insult to every 2nd string LB, OG, WR, CB, whatever, on the team, to skip over the backup QB and put a 3rd string rookie in immediately. And the real reason he didn't start? We know it's because Webb would have been a trainwreck. It was a bad situation but I stick by the depth chart.
If Webb wasn't ready to start then there was ZERO reason to pull Manning. ZERO. If he was hurt? Okay. But he wasn't.
Quote:
In comment 15273900 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
the game.
The only reason you pull your starting QB, a healthy starting QB, in that situation is because you are packing it in for the season and evaluating the future.
You might disagree on the reasoning for the change, but I maintain that it would have been an insult to every 2nd string LB, OG, WR, CB, whatever, on the team, to skip over the backup QB and put a 3rd string rookie in immediately. And the real reason he didn't start? We know it's because Webb would have been a trainwreck. It was a bad situation but I stick by the depth chart.
If Webb wasn't ready to start then there was ZERO reason to pull Manning. ZERO. If he was hurt? Okay. But he wasn't.
Change-up for a losing hopeless team? No? Okay. My point is still that Smith became unnecessarily maligned.
He is a footnote to the story. Which is unfortunate because I acknowledge that he was the first black QB to start for the NYG. But that is not how it should have happened.
As far as insulting, do you consider that it was insulting to Manning who had played hurt and injured never missing a game for 15 straight years to be healthy scratch on a whim of a doofus HC?
Quote:
In comment 15273900 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
the game.
The only reason you pull your starting QB, a healthy starting QB, in that situation is because you are packing it in for the season and evaluating the future.
You might disagree on the reasoning for the change, but I maintain that it would have been an insult to every 2nd string LB, OG, WR, CB, whatever, on the team, to skip over the backup QB and put a 3rd string rookie in immediately. And the real reason he didn't start? We know it's because Webb would have been a trainwreck. It was a bad situation but I stick by the depth chart.
If Webb wasn't ready to start then there was ZERO reason to pull Manning. ZERO. If he was hurt? Okay. But he wasn't.
Manning wasn't pulled, he opted out.
I don't begrudge Eli's decision and it sure seems like Ben handled the subject as poorly as possible, but the intention was never for him not to start.
Have you ever seen that? Like ever?
He is a footnote to the story. Which is unfortunate because I acknowledge that he was the first black QB to start for the NYG. But that is not how it should have happened.
As far as insulting, do you consider that it was insulting to Manning who had played hurt and injured never missing a game for 15 straight years to be healthy scratch on a whim of a doofus HC?
Don't forget, with approval from the owner.
Eli is one of my all-time favorite athletes. At the same time, there is nothing that can earn a lifetime pass to start at QB. At the time I felt it was a moment of accountability that was not without cause. Consider all the years of losing and how bad the offense was on that McAdoo team that somehow made the playoffs.
Eli's streak wasn't going to last forever. The fact that it ended well before the franchise was ready to give up on him, turned out to be very embarrassing. Like I said, handled poorly by almost every party involved.
I just think it shouldn't be overlooked that when the move was made Smith was QB2 and deserved his first licks. I believe it would have been disconcerting to be a backup on that team and see Geno skipped over for the rookie. That would not have matched up with anything I have seen of football. But like you say, it was an unusual move to begin with. No winners.
Have you ever seen that? Like ever?
nope, if that indeed was the plan (there was some difference of interpretation between Eli, Mara and Ben back then) then yes that is stupid.
On the other hand, if you really want to give Webb a legitimate amount of work you do have to allocate some time allocated to him, both in practice and in the game. You cant just treat it as normal mop up duty with the normal (non existent) amount of practice reps.
Quote:
Pull the QB at halftime regardless of whether the team is winning or losing or what the situation is?
Have you ever seen that? Like ever?
nope, if that indeed was the plan (there was some difference of interpretation between Eli, Mara and Ben back then) then yes that is stupid.
On the other hand, if you really want to give Webb a legitimate amount of work you do have to allocate some time allocated to him, both in practice and in the game. You cant just treat it as normal mop up duty with the normal (non existent) amount of practice reps.
If that was the eventual goal he should have been elevated to the #2 spot on the depth chart and given those reps in practice weeks before making that move.
We know now, he didn't (and never) had the stuff. But if they were serious about making the move, he should have been practicing at #2 for weeks before such a move was made.
I think he was all in with Eli till elimination.
I think this decision was handed down to Ben but have nothing to back that up
But either way, even the #2 doesn't get any significant amount of reps under normal circumstances
And you know what, he keeps getting jobs in the league as a solid back up.
They both sucked.
And you know what, he keeps getting jobs in the league as a solid back up.
Smith did get unfairly maligned in this situation. It wasn't like he was running into McAdoo's office begging to play.
He was basically a victim of an organization in hyper-dysfunction at the time. The planning and communication between Mara, Reese and McAdoo was like a three stooges episode...
I never liked Shurmur because of his ties with the Eagles, but at least he wasn't a damn clown like McAdoo.
I hope McAdoo is a disaster in Dallas.
Having said all that, I got the answers I was looking for in this thread. Optics matter -- sometimes enough to supersede results (not saying that's right or wrong).