...amongst Giants fans?
Was thinking about this in the "Cowboys hired McAdoo" thread.
McAdoo had success as the OC and at least one good year as an HC. Shurmur was just bad from the get go.
I'm not saying McAdoo was an amazing HC, but I think it's apparent that when it comes to at least the offensive side of the game, he isn't totally clueless.
Well, Shurmur could have kept Spags and he opted against it.
McAdoo success stems from the defense..that he had little to do with....actually both he and McCarthy seem to benefit from Rogers.
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Shurmur has a much more decorated resume though so it isn't surprised he is where he is at and McAdoo is where he is.
Well, Shurmur could have kept Spags and he opted against it.
And? I'm agreeing that McAdoo was better than Shurmur. But I am saying that Shurmur is getting other chances because he has a much better resume. Being a HC is completely different than being a coordinator and positional coach. McAdoo's resume isn't that great.
Granted, it sucked when he was an HC, but at least the Giants went 11-5 in 2016.
As for benching Eli for Geno, whatever, it's hard for me personally to give too much of a shit about that. Eli was pretty shell shocked and cooked by that point anyway. I think hindsight kind of shows that to be the case.
Either way, at least McAdoo had some positives he contributed when he was here, in the form of 2 good offensive seasons as OC and the most recent playoff season. Shurmur did nothing positive.
McAdoo success stems from the defense..that he had little to do with....actually both he and McCarthy seem to benefit from Rogers.
Eli's stats actually noticeably improved, although I think a some of that is built into the vastly difference systems Gilbride and McAdoo ran.
The Shurmur era was strangely emotionless, and gratefully brief. But he never spent time spewing quotes he stole from the leadership books he was reading, like McAdoo did.
Both were mediocre coaches. Shurmur was less cringeworthy, I think that’s why he isn’t remembered as badly.
I feel only fair McAdoo/Shurmur comparison is as HC.
Neither were great HC
I feel only fair McAdoo/Shurmur comparison is as HC.
Neither were great HC
Shurmur was just bad at everything he did as a Giant. McAdoo was at least good at something at some point. Yet for some reason, Giants fans appear to viscerally hate McAdoo and give Shurmur a pass, when IMO, Shurmur was far more useless. Dude was a bad hire from the start and pretty much everyone knew it.
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McAdoo? Give me a break. He's been riding on Rodgers' coattails. He just plain got lucky in his first year as NYG HC, then reality bit him the following year and he imploded like a water balloon in a 500-ton sheet metal press.
McAdoo? Give me a break. He's been riding on Rodgers' coattails. He just plain got lucky in his first year as NYG HC, then reality bit him the following year and he imploded like a water balloon in a 500-ton sheet metal press.
I'm not trying to come off as defending McAdoo per se. I just think he was better than Shurmur, and if you're gonna shit on McAdoo, you might as well shit on Shurmur equally as much, if not more.
Is anyone here signing up to have either guy coach again? If not, then isn't the premise here flimsy, at best? Two guys sucking doesn't really have to differentiate between the magnitude of it.
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Kind of apples to oranges.
I feel only fair McAdoo/Shurmur comparison is as HC.
Neither were great HC
I didn't intend to compare them on an apples to apples basis, I was just talking about their reputation amongst Giants fans.
Shurmur was just bad at everything he did as a Giant. McAdoo was at least good at something at some point. Yet for some reason, Giants fans appear to viscerally hate McAdoo and give Shurmur a pass, when IMO, Shurmur was far more useless. Dude was a bad hire from the start and pretty much everyone knew it.
Shurmur did not run a bad offense.
p.s.--My source at Fox Sports said McAdoo wasn't well-respected during his time in Green Bay. "Glorified gym teacher" was the expression that was used.
Is anyone here signing up to have either guy coach again? If not, then isn't the premise here flimsy, at best? Two guys sucking doesn't really have to differentiate between the magnitude of it.
Others touched on it, but I guess the spectacular flame out and disappointment is probably what does it, now that I've seen the responses in this thread.
As for the poster who said that Shurmur's offenses weren't bad.... they were average, sure, but McAdoo had better offenses (at times, definitely not as a HC) and at least had a playoff season.
All I'm saying is there were some positives during McAdoos tenure as OC and HC. I can't really think of any during Shurmur's... yet McAdoo is farrrrr more reviled.
Shurmur seemed like a nice guy that was in over his head as a HC. Shurmur also had multiple years of being a solid OC, where McAdoo really didn’t do much of anything before getting his HC opportunity.
p.s.--My source at Fox Sports said McAdoo wasn't well-respected during his time in Green Bay. "Glorified gym teacher" was the expression that was used.
His offense was the one that utilized the 11 personnel grouping at a historically high rate
There were many threads about the stark differences in downfield attempts, in route selection and in utilization of backs.
His offense was the one that utilized the 11 personnel grouping at a historically high rate
There were many threads about the stark differences in downfield attempts, in route selection and in utilization of backs.
Either way, he was the OC, so I think it'd be silly to say he doesn't deserve any credit for the offensive performances in '14 and '15.
Regardless of all of that though, I'm not trying to mount a passionate defense of McAdoo. All I've been saying in this thread was that I find it surprising that people viscerally despise McAdoo yet nobody gives a shit about Shurmur, when the Giants were worse under Shurmur.
And discussing his time as an OC still doesn't compare to Shurmur, who led a couple teams offenses much better than McAdoo did ours. And as soon as he was fired, he was able to get another job as a OC.
So it appears that Shurmur is looked at more favorably by NFL people too. Probably much moreso than the difference between the two by NYG fans
And discussing his time as an OC still doesn't compare to Shurmur, who led a couple teams offenses much better than McAdoo did ours. And as soon as he was fired, he was able to get another job as a OC.
So it appears that Shurmur is looked at more favorably by NFL people too. Probably much moreso than the difference between the two by NYG fans
I mean any Giants fan that doesn't see that the offense when McAdoo when he was OC and HC weren't quiet night and day, but fundamentally very different, then they are just looking to argue a position. It's completely disingenuous.
OC's that gets of credit and respect are the guys that coach offenses under defensive coaches. Shurmur coached under Spags, Zimmer, and Fangio now. Guy is well respected as being an offensive guru.
McAdoo hasn't sniffed a job because of his competency in that area. He was exposed as a fraud after Coughlin left. He hitched onto McCarthy (another fraud because of Aaron) and Coughlin and had very good offenses because of Aaron Rogers and Coughlin. Who knows if he's even a good QB coach, he didn't help develop Rogers, he was just there when he was already elite.
The only logical starter in a scenario where eli was benched, was Davis Webb. Starting Geno was an exercise in futility.
And discussing his time as an OC still doesn't compare to Shurmur, who led a couple teams offenses much better than McAdoo did ours. And as soon as he was fired, he was able to get another job as a OC.
So it appears that Shurmur is looked at more favorably by NFL people too. Probably much moreso than the difference between the two by NYG fans
Having said all that, I was never talking about their relative acumen as an offensive mind. I've said it a couple times in this thread, but people fucking hate McAdoo and don't give a shit about Shurmur.
I had way more fun in 2016 as a Giants fan than anything under Shurmur. Shurmur being a better coach is irrelevant to me at this point, since neither coach is gonna ever be involved with the Giants again. Just saying that in hindsight, give me the McAdoo years over the Shurmur ones. At least there was a glimmer of competency and hope for the franchise.
The only logical starter in a scenario where eli was benched, was Davis Webb. Starting Geno was an exercise in futility.
Shurmur was in over his head, but was so bland that there was really no negative reaction to him personally.
Riddick nailed it perfectly
On a side note, why is Chris Canty not working NFL games. The guy is great with his commentary.
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Someone add a pic.
McAdoo isn't even proven to be a good QB coach.
Shurmur on the other hand is a class act and a good guy. He just doesn't have the personality to be a head coach. He is a smart football guy, but isn't cut out to be the CEO. I don't blame him, he did his best, the hiring is on the Giants for not seeing that.
So the rep, I believe is about the person that they are, not the stats.
They were trying to win a game, something they weren’t doing much of with Eli.
It s team first. If he felt Geno was a better athlete, giving them a better chance to win, that was more important than Eli s streak.
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breaking Eli’s streak for Geno Smith has something to do with McAdoo sentiment
They were trying to win a game, something they weren’t doing much of with Eli.
It s team first. If he felt Geno was a better athlete, giving them a better chance to win, that was more important than Eli s streak.
Geno Smith was trash, and he proved to be trash in that game. Terrible excuse-making for a shitty coach.
😂😂😂😂😂. Mannnnn y’all got me rolling today! This was great lmao
Go look at the numbers.
McAdoo strangely gets credit for being HC for Spags' accomplishments with his 2016 defense.
Now, Shurmur was not successful, but his offemse showed some competence. In 28 games, the most points the Giants scored under McAdoo was 28 points.
Shurmur's team scored at least 30 points 5 times in 2018 alone, 40 once.
And some of this has to do with the players they both had (and didn't have). But McAdoo was brought here bc of his offensive acumen and it was an unmitigated failure, while Shurmur's wasn't, despite his other failings.
Without the defense he had in 2016 McAdoo went 2-10 in 2017. You do need good players no matter who you are, but it was clear that Shurmur brought more to the table than McAdoo.
Neither were good head coaches.
McAdoo was the master of the 6 yard out pass on 3rd and 10.
Agreed, I think Shurmur is best suited as a coordinator, but the assistant coaches he had were pretty bad. And I understand he is the one that is responsible for bringing them in. That’s the point, good OC, bad HC. Just like Norv Turner and Spagnuolo for that matter. Not everyone is cut out to be a HC.
McAdoo was the master of the 6 yard out pass on 3rd and 10.
Lol, the Shane Vereen special in 2015. Dump off for 5-6 yards and fall down. Brutal.
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If Shurmur was handed that defense and Spags he would have been able to break 20 points a game.
Agreed, I think Shurmur is best suited as a coordinator, but the assistant coaches he had were pretty bad. And I understand he is the one that is responsible for bringing them in. That’s the point, good OC, bad HC. Just like Norv Turner and Spagnuolo for that matter. Not everyone is cut out to be a HC.
For sure. But I don't even think he was that good of an OC... lol. I'd say middle of the pack. But leaps and bounds better than MacAdoo
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In comment 15273525 Johnny5 said:
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If Shurmur was handed that defense and Spags he would have been able to break 20 points a game.
Agreed, I think Shurmur is best suited as a coordinator, but the assistant coaches he had were pretty bad. And I understand he is the one that is responsible for bringing them in. That’s the point, good OC, bad HC. Just like Norv Turner and Spagnuolo for that matter. Not everyone is cut out to be a HC.
For sure. But I don't even think he was that good of an OC... lol. I'd say middle of the pack. But leaps and bounds better than MacAdoo
McAdoo is the poster boy for someone with little talent falling ass backwards into riches lol. I remember when they hired him, I think it was Mara, said he gave a wonderful PowerPoint presentation on how he would fix the offense.
- Shurmur has pulled off a few miracles — Bradford in 16, Keenum 17, Jones 19
- Most importantly he can dress himself
Side note, between McAdoo and Gettleman, it’s like someone on the staff at all times is obligated to be wearing a shirt or jacket that’s 10 times too big for them.
So I don't think McAdoo was respected much as an X and O's guy nor did he appear to be a good leader. Shurmur was terrible. The talent sucked, but he made poor decisions. I assume he had the respect of his players, but he seemed too timid for a HC. That said, no one questions whether Shurmur knows his stuff.
Personally, I thought both were equally bad for different reasons, but 2016 gave us an exciting year so I try not to bash McAdoo unnecessarily.
His offense was the one that utilized the 11 personnel grouping at a historically high rate
There were many threads about the stark differences in downfield attempts, in route selection and in utilization of backs.
Spot on Fats.
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Shurmur offense was decent....it was the disaster of the defense.
McAdoo success stems from the defense..that he had little to do with....actually both he and McCarthy seem to benefit from Rogers.
Said it in my previous post, but the Giants offense was pretty good when McAdoo was OC.
Eli's stats actually noticeably improved, although I think a some of that is built into the vastly difference systems Gilbride and McAdoo ran.
It was due to OBJ.. In games OBJ didn't play the Giants offense sucked under McAdoo.. so I doubt McAdoo's playcalling was the difference.. between Kilbride and McAddoo.. I don't think its fair to say McAdoo's offense was better in anyway shape or form..
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breaking Eli’s streak for Geno Smith has something to do with McAdoo sentiment
They were trying to win a game, something they weren’t doing much of with Eli.
It s team first. If he felt Geno was a better athlete, giving them a better chance to win, that was more important than Eli s streak.
The problem with this statement and logic is he put out contradictory messages. At the same time they said they were evaluating for the future and then also said they were trying to win games. If your trying to evaluate for the future, in no way does Starting Geno make sense. It's debatable, if he gave you any chance to win games and even if he did who cared at that point. The were something like 2 and 9.
It was a fine idea to get Webb some work that year, but he botched the execution horribly.
Judge had the benefit of a true clean slate.
I remain convinced that TC had significant influence over the offenses McAdoo was gameplanning. You look at the differences - personnel packages, motion, deep passing - between BM/TC offenses and BM alone, and they are striking. That is why Shurmur found another job immediately while McAdoo sat on his hands.
Shurmur’s coaching ceiling is a coordinator. He has failed miserably twice and his hiring was a major error
I was wrong on that one.
He played injured, we didn't win Superbowls with the most talented teams in the NFL during his tenure.
We won them with teams that came together. The intangibles of those men mattered more than their 40 times. Easy E was big part of that. A leader of men. You don't have to be loud, you have to put the team before yourself. When the QB does that, you really have something.
Eli should not have been benched for Geno. I really wish that had not happened.
Shurmur has a much longer track record with very accomplished coaches where he had a big part in the offenses success.
Mara was certainly on board with the benching and I think he weaseled out of it putting it on BM. My guess is a divide had already existed regarding Eli's future for at least a couple years.
Geno Smith deserved better? Are you out of your mind?? He had no business starting a game...the entire point of a QB change was the EVALUATE your roster for the next year. The only young player they had at the position of Webb, which not a single fan would have been furious had he have gotten the start.
Its shocking you choose not to see the difference.
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how "next man up", a phrase with meaning in every other situation in pro football, is not seen as applying in any way to the Eli/Geno/Webb situation. He was the backup. He gets his one shot if they are making a change. Both of these head coaches sucked. Geno Smith deserved better from Giants fans.
Geno Smith deserved better? Are you out of your mind?? He had no business starting a game...the entire point of a QB change was the EVALUATE your roster for the next year. The only young player they had at the position of Webb, which not a single fan would have been furious had he have gotten the start.
Its shocking you choose not to see the difference.
He was the backup QB. The team is losing and Eli is not a part of the solution at this moment. You first hand the reins to the backup QB. Why is that hard to understand?
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In comment 15273753 BigBluesman said:
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how "next man up", a phrase with meaning in every other situation in pro football, is not seen as applying in any way to the Eli/Geno/Webb situation. He was the backup. He gets his one shot if they are making a change. Both of these head coaches sucked. Geno Smith deserved better from Giants fans.
Geno Smith deserved better? Are you out of your mind?? He had no business starting a game...the entire point of a QB change was the EVALUATE your roster for the next year. The only young player they had at the position of Webb, which not a single fan would have been furious had he have gotten the start.
Its shocking you choose not to see the difference.
He was the backup QB. The team is losing and Eli is not a part of the solution at this moment. You first hand the reins to the backup QB. Why is that hard to understand?
Hand the reigns to the backup QB for what purpose?
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In comment 15273843 bLiTz 2k said:
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In comment 15273753 BigBluesman said:
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how "next man up", a phrase with meaning in every other situation in pro football, is not seen as applying in any way to the Eli/Geno/Webb situation. He was the backup. He gets his one shot if they are making a change. Both of these head coaches sucked. Geno Smith deserved better from Giants fans.
Geno Smith deserved better? Are you out of your mind?? He had no business starting a game...the entire point of a QB change was the EVALUATE your roster for the next year. The only young player they had at the position of Webb, which not a single fan would have been furious had he have gotten the start.
Its shocking you choose not to see the difference.
He was the backup QB. The team is losing and Eli is not a part of the solution at this moment. You first hand the reins to the backup QB. Why is that hard to understand?
Hand the reigns to the backup QB for what purpose?
To try and win a game because you are losing week after week. See how he does. Maybe put Webb in next week. It never happened and it doesn't matter. It was poorly handled by all parties, but Geno Smith did not deserve all of that hate. And very quietly he was the first black QB to ever start for the Giants. Oakland was probably winning that game regardless.
The only reason you pull your starting QB, a healthy starting QB, in that situation is because you are packing it in for the season and evaluating the future.
The only reason you pull your starting QB, a healthy starting QB, in that situation is because you are packing it in for the season and evaluating the future.
You might disagree on the reasoning for the change, but I maintain that it would have been an insult to every 2nd string LB, OG, WR, CB, whatever, on the team, to skip over the backup QB and put a 3rd string rookie in immediately. And the real reason he didn't start? We know it's because Webb would have been a trainwreck. It was a bad situation but I stick by the depth chart.
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the game.
The only reason you pull your starting QB, a healthy starting QB, in that situation is because you are packing it in for the season and evaluating the future.
You might disagree on the reasoning for the change, but I maintain that it would have been an insult to every 2nd string LB, OG, WR, CB, whatever, on the team, to skip over the backup QB and put a 3rd string rookie in immediately. And the real reason he didn't start? We know it's because Webb would have been a trainwreck. It was a bad situation but I stick by the depth chart.
If Webb wasn't ready to start then there was ZERO reason to pull Manning. ZERO. If he was hurt? Okay. But he wasn't.
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In comment 15273900 Britt in VA said:
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the game.
The only reason you pull your starting QB, a healthy starting QB, in that situation is because you are packing it in for the season and evaluating the future.
You might disagree on the reasoning for the change, but I maintain that it would have been an insult to every 2nd string LB, OG, WR, CB, whatever, on the team, to skip over the backup QB and put a 3rd string rookie in immediately. And the real reason he didn't start? We know it's because Webb would have been a trainwreck. It was a bad situation but I stick by the depth chart.
If Webb wasn't ready to start then there was ZERO reason to pull Manning. ZERO. If he was hurt? Okay. But he wasn't.
Change-up for a losing hopeless team? No? Okay. My point is still that Smith became unnecessarily maligned.
He is a footnote to the story. Which is unfortunate because I acknowledge that he was the first black QB to start for the NYG. But that is not how it should have happened.
As far as insulting, do you consider that it was insulting to Manning who had played hurt and injured never missing a game for 15 straight years to be healthy scratch on a whim of a doofus HC?
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In comment 15273900 Britt in VA said:
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the game.
The only reason you pull your starting QB, a healthy starting QB, in that situation is because you are packing it in for the season and evaluating the future.
You might disagree on the reasoning for the change, but I maintain that it would have been an insult to every 2nd string LB, OG, WR, CB, whatever, on the team, to skip over the backup QB and put a 3rd string rookie in immediately. And the real reason he didn't start? We know it's because Webb would have been a trainwreck. It was a bad situation but I stick by the depth chart.
If Webb wasn't ready to start then there was ZERO reason to pull Manning. ZERO. If he was hurt? Okay. But he wasn't.
Manning wasn't pulled, he opted out.
I don't begrudge Eli's decision and it sure seems like Ben handled the subject as poorly as possible, but the intention was never for him not to start.
Have you ever seen that? Like ever?
He is a footnote to the story. Which is unfortunate because I acknowledge that he was the first black QB to start for the NYG. But that is not how it should have happened.
As far as insulting, do you consider that it was insulting to Manning who had played hurt and injured never missing a game for 15 straight years to be healthy scratch on a whim of a doofus HC?
Don't forget, with approval from the owner.
Eli is one of my all-time favorite athletes. At the same time, there is nothing that can earn a lifetime pass to start at QB. At the time I felt it was a moment of accountability that was not without cause. Consider all the years of losing and how bad the offense was on that McAdoo team that somehow made the playoffs.
Eli's streak wasn't going to last forever. The fact that it ended well before the franchise was ready to give up on him, turned out to be very embarrassing. Like I said, handled poorly by almost every party involved.
I just think it shouldn't be overlooked that when the move was made Smith was QB2 and deserved his first licks. I believe it would have been disconcerting to be a backup on that team and see Geno skipped over for the rookie. That would not have matched up with anything I have seen of football. But like you say, it was an unusual move to begin with. No winners.
Have you ever seen that? Like ever?
nope, if that indeed was the plan (there was some difference of interpretation between Eli, Mara and Ben back then) then yes that is stupid.
On the other hand, if you really want to give Webb a legitimate amount of work you do have to allocate some time allocated to him, both in practice and in the game. You cant just treat it as normal mop up duty with the normal (non existent) amount of practice reps.
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Pull the QB at halftime regardless of whether the team is winning or losing or what the situation is?
Have you ever seen that? Like ever?
nope, if that indeed was the plan (there was some difference of interpretation between Eli, Mara and Ben back then) then yes that is stupid.
On the other hand, if you really want to give Webb a legitimate amount of work you do have to allocate some time allocated to him, both in practice and in the game. You cant just treat it as normal mop up duty with the normal (non existent) amount of practice reps.
If that was the eventual goal he should have been elevated to the #2 spot on the depth chart and given those reps in practice weeks before making that move.
We know now, he didn't (and never) had the stuff. But if they were serious about making the move, he should have been practicing at #2 for weeks before such a move was made.
I think he was all in with Eli till elimination.
I think this decision was handed down to Ben but have nothing to back that up
But either way, even the #2 doesn't get any significant amount of reps under normal circumstances
And you know what, he keeps getting jobs in the league as a solid back up.
They both sucked.
And you know what, he keeps getting jobs in the league as a solid back up.
Smith did get unfairly maligned in this situation. It wasn't like he was running into McAdoo's office begging to play.
He was basically a victim of an organization in hyper-dysfunction at the time. The planning and communication between Mara, Reese and McAdoo was like a three stooges episode...
I never liked Shurmur because of his ties with the Eagles, but at least he wasn't a damn clown like McAdoo.
I hope McAdoo is a disaster in Dallas.
Having said all that, I got the answers I was looking for in this thread. Optics matter -- sometimes enough to supersede results (not saying that's right or wrong).