Just the oddness of his rookie camp with shoe stuff, lower leg problem and now a no show at OTA's? Not saying there is as it is early but it has entered my mind. Anybody else worried?
He dropped on a lot of team’s boards due to character issues. A few other teams basically admitted they they’d have taken him in the first round/20s also.
All we can do is hope the Giants vetting process was sound here and that the coaching staff can get the most out of this kid.
Trainia tweeted out that Toney has not been to any of the OTAs. But no other reporter has tweeted that or written about it in articles as far as I can find.
If was out just yesterday, not that concerned. But if he is skipping all of the OTAs, then I would start to wonder if he is getting bad advice from his agent.
The only rookie who hasn’t signed his contract. As is the Giants usual practice, the later round picks get signed and then they work their way to the higher picks.
Draft picks have very little leverage in negotiating so I am not surprised that Toney isn’t there until he signs. No one is in any hurry and it isn’t like he is going to be the key to the offense, at least initially. He hasn’t shown any indication that he is a diva.
Trainia tweeted out that Toney has not been to any of the OTAs. But no other reporter has tweeted that or written about it in articles as far as I can find.
If was out just yesterday, not that concerned. But if he is skipping all of the OTAs, then I would start to wonder if he is getting bad advice from his agent.
Why is it bad advice? There's a rift in the league right now between the NFLPA and the league and the players are obviously smack dab in the middle of it. Easy for fans to think these guys should simply do whatever the team asks but its clearly not that simple since tons of players aren't reporting.
COVID has made it even worse, impossible to know what the motivations are for each player but if Toney is one of them I'd hope he's communicated it with Judge and will report when he has to.
with regard to high draft choices. Should we worry? I realize this is not unique to this franchise. So let’s wait and see but there is a chance of a fiasco.
most definitely skipped OTAs to film a music video
then change it and make it involuntary in negotiations with the NFLPA..Otherwise, stfu and leave the players alone..I wouldn’t show either..Somehow, During minicamps and training camp, they’ll be quickly brought up to speed..
In my old age I've realized that I have enough things to worry about
to not report to any OTA is a bad look. He is not a veteran who knows the system. Is it a big deal...no. Does it help alleviate pre-draft concerns...no.
didn’t sign until right before camp. It’s May. I realize there’s not much news so we over-interpret everything but let’s wait at least until camp to label him a diva.
RE: In my old age I've realized that I have enough things to worry about
For a lot of guys. I'm not sure I would jeopardize that without a contract either. I understand why he's not at the voluntary workouts 100%. It's not apples to apples at all but the Ju'wan James thing just happened, that's something that would grab my attention as an athlete regardless of how different the situations are.
there were attitude and character concerns the second he was drafted as his scouting report had numerous red flags which everyone is aware of
regardless of if these OTAs are important or not, you'd like to think that he has enough self-awareness to know this and put this to bed by just showing up at these things (even if just to watch if he's hurt). and if he does have good reasons not to be there, then bad job by the team not making them known.
but no, he isn't there and he had cleat issues (i've never heard of that before) that impacted his rookie camp as well. not exactly a great start
also spare me the BS that the giants can't have his negotiations done by now. that's absolute bullshit. they have many, many highly paid full time employees. they don't need to wrap up the later round contracts before the early ones.
ranaan touched on toney briefly in his most recent podcast, which was a good listen.
I thought the shoe incident was very bizarre for a pro sports team; however, not going to exactly freak out yet.
You've never seen a player lose a shoe during a game?
maybe i'm incorrect but i don't think he lost a shoe. i thought the issue was that he had a cleat that didn't fit that prevented him from finishing practices.
Practicing even without a shoe makes me confident he wants to play.
Trainia tweeted out that Toney has not been to any of the OTAs. But no other reporter has tweeted that or written about it in articles as far as I can find.
If was out just yesterday, not that concerned. But if he is skipping all of the OTAs, then I would start to wonder if he is getting bad advice from his agent.
Does he have an agent? I think that is becoming the norm lately and not a good norm.
there were attitude and character concerns the second he was drafted as his scouting report had numerous red flags which everyone is aware of
regardless of if these OTAs are important or not, you'd like to think that he has enough self-awareness to know this and put this to bed by just showing up at these things (even if just to watch if he's hurt). and if he does have good reasons not to be there, then bad job by the team not making them known.
but no, he isn't there and he had cleat issues (i've never heard of that before) that impacted his rookie camp as well. not exactly a great start
also spare me the BS that the giants can't have his negotiations done by now. that's absolute bullshit. they have many, many highly paid full time employees. they don't need to wrap up the later round contracts before the early ones.
ranaan touched on toney briefly in his most recent podcast, which was a good listen.
As of today there is only 10 of the 32 first round draft picks signed by their respective teams. This is standard timing when it comes to 1st round draft picks and I don't expect toney to show up until he has a contract. Why should he? If he gets injured before he has a contract, he risks losing a lot of money.
As far as concerns about character or being a diva? Based on what exactly? He has not said or done anything to give any impression of concern.
But I remember a day when teams would have guys that were and instead of worrying about it they trusted the coaches to "manage" the personality and find a way to get production out of him.
Remember what a diva and a headcase Randy Moss was with the Raiders, how fast that changed when he went to a coach (Bill B) who realized dealing with that was just part of the job?
But I remember a day when teams would have guys that were and instead of worrying about it they trusted the coaches to "manage" the personality and find a way to get production out of him.
Remember what a diva and a headcase Randy Moss was with the Raiders, how fast that changed when he went to a coach (Bill B) who realized dealing with that was just part of the job?
Randy Moss went from Aaron Brooks at QB to Tom Brady... come on back to reality.
Sounds like he comes from a great family. His dad has had to jump in at times while at FL to get Toney back on track. So I think there is a good support system there.
But I definitely sense he could fall into the wild card category. Some of the stuff Sy suggested was somewhat concerning.
He's certainly going to be an interesting player to watch. If his mind is right, there is a lot there to like physically.
and I mean everything I have heard from him has been positive. When asked why he continued with the drills even though he was without a shoe, he said (paraphrasing) "They took a chance on me, I owe it to them to give everything I've got".
Sounds like he comes from a great family. His dad has had to jump in at times while at FL to get Toney back on track. So I think there is a good support system there.
But I definitely sense he could fall into the wild card category. Some of the stuff Sy suggested was somewhat concerning.
He's certainly going to be an interesting player to watch. If his mind is right, there is a lot there to like physically.
Sounds like he comes from a great family. His dad has had to jump in at times while at FL to get Toney back on track. So I think there is a good support system there.
But I definitely sense he could fall into the wild card category. Some of the stuff Sy suggested was somewhat concerning.
He's certainly going to be an interesting player to watch. If his mind is right, there is a lot there to like physically.
What details did Sy mention? I only vague rumors.
Sy was vague. Seemed to suggest that a scout - or maybe multiple scouts - was/were not very fond of Toney's character. And that that could be a challenge for an NFL team.
Toney would be my choice for the most important person who should be attending OTAs. I agree with Judge's assessment.
But him not attending has no impact on my concern about his past off field gun issues and focus on non-football related matters like RAP music. I would be just as concerned about these things if he were here...
As a jaded Giants fan who has had to endure the sagas of OBJ and DeAndre Baker, only time and Toney's on field performance as a first round draft choice will ultimately allay my concerns.
Sounds like he comes from a great family. His dad has had to jump in at times while at FL to get Toney back on track. So I think there is a good support system there.
But I definitely sense he could fall into the wild card category. Some of the stuff Sy suggested was somewhat concerning.
He's certainly going to be an interesting player to watch. If his mind is right, there is a lot there to like physically.
What details did Sy mention? I only vague rumors.
Sy was vague. Seemed to suggest that a scout - or maybe multiple scouts - was/were not very fond of Toney's character. And that that could be a challenge for an NFL team.
Then why'd you say "some of the stuff"? He didn't mention anything to be able parse 'some' from 'others'? It's hearsay without any reference to specifics. And it's second hand hearsay coming from you. Seems like an overreaction imho.
was fairly firm in his belief that there was legitimate character concerns, but would not cough up specifics of why. Seemed to me that Sy knew a lot more than he was willing to pass along.
That said, rookies realistically only have to prove themselves by the time the second contract is due, and by then, missing an OTA won't be a blip on a gnat's ass.
Don't these guys have to sign a waiver to attend? He's going to get signed, so why risk an injury?
But I remember a day when teams would have guys that were and instead of worrying about it they trusted the coaches to "manage" the personality and find a way to get production out of him.
Remember what a diva and a headcase Randy Moss was with the Raiders, how fast that changed when he went to a coach (Bill B) who realized dealing with that was just part of the job?
Randy Moss went from Aaron Brooks at QB to Tom Brady... come on back to reality.
I do live in reality. The same one where the "Pro Bowl" QB, Dante Culpepper, throwing the ball to Moss posted a stat line of 6 TDs and 12 INTs the season Moss left.
If Moss wanted to play and was giving it his all it really didn't matter who was throwing him the ball.
Sy was vague. Seemed to suggest that a scout - or maybe multiple scouts - was/were not very fond of Toney's character. And that that could be a challenge for an NFL team.
Then why'd you say "some of the stuff"? He didn't mention anything to be able parse 'some' from 'others'? It's hearsay without any reference to specifics. And it's second hand hearsay coming from you. Seems like an overreaction imho.
What I wrote was an overreaction?? Interesting.
I didn't belabor the point or put enough weight/credibility on it to make me think this situation cited by the OP was a potential bad sign.
I remember pre and post draft Sy making comments about Toney's character. It seemed to be several things. And I don't sense that Sy would mention this without feeling that he had credible sources.
I think he’s holding out for a new number, maybe waiting for the 1st
wave of cuts to see what comes available ... seriously, the real question is why hasn’t he signed yet; these guys are all slotted and working out the few details shouldn’t really be a big deal. My bet is on bad advice from an agent.
But I remember a day when teams would have guys that were and instead of worrying about it they trusted the coaches to "manage" the personality and find a way to get production out of him.
Remember what a diva and a headcase Randy Moss was with the Raiders, how fast that changed when he went to a coach (Bill B) who realized dealing with that was just part of the job?
Randy Moss went from Aaron Brooks at QB to Tom Brady... come on back to reality.
I do live in reality. The same one where the "Pro Bowl" QB, Dante Culpepper, throwing the ball to Moss posted a stat line of 6 TDs and 12 INTs the season Moss left.
If Moss wanted to play and was giving it his all it really didn't matter who was throwing him the ball.
In 2004 Culpeppers top WR by yards and receptions was Burleson, not Moss. He spread the ball around a ton to get those 39 TD.
And then he tore his knee in 2005, which effectively ended his career since his mobility was his star attribute.
with anyone talking about a players character concerns without stating what they are. I know sy is well regarded around here and I appreciate all of the work he does, but these are players we are talking about and character assassinations without statement of facts.
Ric Serritella of the NFL draft Bible also did this in regards to Micah parsons prior to the draft and to Toney (to a lesser extent) after the draft.
If anyone is going to put the accusations out there, then back it up or don't say anything at all.
But I remember a day when teams would have guys that were and instead of worrying about it they trusted the coaches to "manage" the personality and find a way to get production out of him.
Remember what a diva and a headcase Randy Moss was with the Raiders, how fast that changed when he went to a coach (Bill B) who realized dealing with that was just part of the job?
Randy Moss went from Aaron Brooks at QB to Tom Brady... come on back to reality.
I do live in reality. The same one where the "Pro Bowl" QB, Dante Culpepper, throwing the ball to Moss posted a stat line of 6 TDs and 12 INTs the season Moss left.
If Moss wanted to play and was giving it his all it really didn't matter who was throwing him the ball.
In 2004 Culpeppers top WR by yards and receptions was Burleson, not Moss. He spread the ball around a ton to get those 39 TD.
And then he tore his knee in 2005, which effectively ended his career since his mobility was his star attribute.
You are completely wrong.
Randy Moss also had 13 TDs in 2004 and was the one that made it possible for Burleson and others to have the production they did. Moss had at least 2 guys on him every play and sometimes garnered triple teams. Its notable that Burleson never even sniffed those numbers during the following 9 seasons in his career.
Yeah Culpepper tore his knee up, but others returned to have productive careers after similar injuries. Culpepper went on to suck for 2 more teams. Moss made him what he was.
Its amazing how fast people forgot how absolutely dominate Randy Moss was when he actually wanted to play. In the scheme of things it really wasn't all that long ago.
with anyone talking about a players character concerns without stating what they are. I know sy is well regarded around here and I appreciate all of the work he does, but these are players we are talking about and character assassinations without statement of facts.
Ric Serritella of the NFL draft Bible also did this in regards to Micah parsons prior to the draft and to Toney (to a lesser extent) after the draft.
If anyone is going to put the accusations out there, then back it up or don't say anything at all.
Well, Rico said Parsons was basically off the NYG board based on his psychological profile testing. And he's pretty damn dialed with Jints Central. So remind me - did you ask him to reveal his source(s)?
Furthermore, Sy said after the draft that D.Baker had some red flegs. But didn't mention them specifically. In hindsight, it seems he was onto something there as well...right?
And no one is guessing what Sy may have on Toney. We're just mentioning there may be something. So methinks one doth protest too much here...
with anyone talking about a players character concerns without stating what they are. I know sy is well regarded around here and I appreciate all of the work he does, but these are players we are talking about and character assassinations without statement of facts.
Ric Serritella of the NFL draft Bible also did this in regards to Micah parsons prior to the draft and to Toney (to a lesser extent) after the draft.
If anyone is going to put the accusations out there, then back it up or don't say anything at all.
Yeah, I heard that guy on the Insider podcast. Was NOT impressed at all with him. According to him, Parsons was on track to be thrown in jail the night after being drafted. Another one with "my sources......".
Dropping vague allusions to character concerns isn't fair and borders on slander. If it's important enough to document on a report and go public with, then say it all or don't say anything. Allow the player an avenue to defend himself.
with anyone talking about a players character concerns without stating what they are. I know sy is well regarded around here and I appreciate all of the work he does, but these are players we are talking about and character assassinations without statement of facts.
Ric Serritella of the NFL draft Bible also did this in regards to Micah parsons prior to the draft and to Toney (to a lesser extent) after the draft.
If anyone is going to put the accusations out there, then back it up or don't say anything at all.
Well, Rico said Parsons was basically off the NYG board based on his psychological profile testing. And he's pretty damn dialed with Jints Central. So remind me - did you ask him to reveal his source(s)?
Furthermore, Sy said after the draft that D.Baker had some red flegs. But didn't mention them specifically. In hindsight, it seems he was onto something there as well...right?
And no one is guessing what Sy may have on Toney. We're just mentioning there may be something. So methinks one doth protest too much here...
If the Giants took parsons off their board, they had their reasons but never stated it publicly. Rico giving his insight into the giants thinking isn't him stating that there is character red flags without backing it up.
In regards to baker, again what issues. Work ethic? Attitude? There was nothing to indicate anything that lead to the incident he was involved in last year.
1) Fans make too much of this stuff. Toney not being there is a thing, but it's not a big thing. Yet. It's just business. Yes, he's putting himself behind. Yes, this is sub-optimal. If he's in camp on time and contributing Week 1, this will be nothing.
2) WR is a position that often attracts "diva" types. And in fact legit "head case diva" receivers have been some of the most impactful players in the NFL: Chad Ochocinco Johnson, Terrell Owens, and yes our own OBJ. I'd be happy to have a head case diva who plays at that level on the Giants. They're a pain in the ass but worth it, if you have t a strong coach who can manage them. I think Judge is strong enough. If he can't, I trust the current regime to know when to move on, as they did with Beckham. What you want to avoid is head case divas who don't play at that level. Then they're not worth the trouble. You make tradeoffs for talent. But there are limits.
If you want everybody to be Mark Bavaro, you're going to be dissatisfied all the time.
I'm at a complete loss how a player having an issue with cleats
Read/listen to what Joe Judge said yesterday about the players, particularly the new ones being there. I posted it in yesterday's OTA update.
He's putting himself behind. That's not me saying that, it's Judge. Of course, Judge may not know what he's talking about either.
Eric-- of course the boss is going to say that. What's he going to say? "Yeah I don't really care whether guys show up for this or not, it's not like we're doing anything that important anyway." Of course Judge is going to be all business, and for him (and for the fans) the ideal is for players to all attend every single voluntary practice.
But IMO, with Toney, you're talking about a guy who hasn't even put his name in ink on any dotted line yet. The team has not signed him. He is currently scheduled to make exactly $0. Not to mention-- it sounds like he strained a calf in rookie camp, which would scare the SHIT out of me if I had just been drafted into the NFL and didn't have a contract yet. So I think waiting until he's signed (even if it's likely just going to be a few days) is completely reasonable. These practices in May are voluntary for a reason. A lot of moves are made after June 1st-- teams aren't even fully complete as of May.
There is no way his contract will be impacted by him missing a couple voluntary practices, so I don't really see how it's "bad advice" from his agent as you alluded to earlier. The only thing that could affect his contract is if he gets injured at one of these practices-- which is what he is trying to protect himself from.
There's also no chance that him missing a practice or 2 in May is going to have any effect on how prepared he is on September 12th. Judge is going to stress that these practices are important because that's this job, but if a guy hasn't even been signed by the team he's obviously going to have competing priorities, especially when we're talking about voluntary practices.
Dropping vague allusions to character concerns isn't fair and borders on slander. If it's important enough to document on a report and go public with, then say it all or don't say anything. Allow the player an avenue to defend himself.
Maybe.
One team's red flags, however, may be another team's BFD. It just depends on how each team/scout defines a red flag.
Personally, when I hear red flags mentioned I usually think of some form of immaturity that has some explanation - smoking, a fight, school work, drinking, etc - that can likely be managed (most of the time). But that's my filter. I tend to think issues that are really problematic - sexual assault, stealing, etc - tend to leak out in the open very quickly.
Sounds like he comes from a great family. His dad has had to jump in at times while at FL to get Toney back on track. So I think there is a good support system there.
But I definitely sense he could fall into the wild card category. Some of the stuff Sy suggested was somewhat concerning.
He's certainly going to be an interesting player to watch. If his mind is right, there is a lot there to like physically.
What details did Sy mention? I only vague rumors.
Sy was vague. Seemed to suggest that a scout - or maybe multiple scouts - was/were not very fond of Toney's character. And that that could be a challenge for an NFL team.
I have to say I also didn't like the vagueness of Sy's report on Toney's character. What happened was he asked a scout about Toney and the guy simply said, "He's trouble." Those 2 words. That's it. To me, sometimes a guy can say less and it makes it sound like he knows something more than we do. But that scout may have literally just had the same information as we had-- i.e. the incidents involving the gun that Toney had a license for and the spray-painted airsoft gun. How do we know that scout had any more information than us? He's scouting several hundred players I'm sure he can only have a surface level amount of info about any given random player. I could totally see those stories cause certain scouts to call him "trouble" and put a red flag next to his name. But personally I think every scout has their own implicit biases just like everyone has.
Baker Mayfield was arrested for public intoxication and his draft stock certainly wasn't hurt at all -- and I don't think anyone here would guess that Mayfield is potentially getting into trouble w/ the law as we speak. His run-in w/ the law was easier to pass off as something a dumb college kid would do that wasn't actually indicative of his deeper character. Remember Toney was never actually even arrested. I see no reason not to assume he did something stupid as a college kid that he could just as well have already grown out of.
But what Sy is doing is part of a scout's job - some character and background info. And we wouldn't even know about it if he wasn't willing to share. So I appreciate him doing it to provide some additional perspective. It's a tough balancing act...
From what I recall, Sy stays softens the info be using words like "may", "could", "possibly" etc. So I don't think he's saying it's definitive...
Just read your reply after I hit "submit" on mine. Good points--
I agree red flags are going to be different for everyone, and I also agree that if something is bad enough it will get out into the open.
There's also always the possibility a scout talked to a coach or teacher who flat out didn't like the kid, I know for a fact when I was younger if you asked certain authority figures about me you could've gotten entirely different images of me (some very positive, some neutral, some negative).
Also I agree we have to appreciate the work Sy puts in, I'd rather have the info than not have it and I know he works hard at what he does. I think actually I probably more just didn't like the response the scout gave him (being that it was so vague), and from there I realized all Sy was doing was reporting what the guy was saying so can't really blame him.
with anyone talking about a players character concerns without stating what they are. I know sy is well regarded around here and I appreciate all of the work he does, but these are players we are talking about and character assassinations without statement of facts.
Ric Serritella of the NFL draft Bible also did this in regards to Micah parsons prior to the draft and to Toney (to a lesser extent) after the draft.
If anyone is going to put the accusations out there, then back it up or don't say anything at all.
I agree 100 percent. Stating an arrest record already out in public is one thing. Speculating is another, and it bothers me.
Just read your reply after I hit "submit" on mine. Good points--
I agree red flags are going to be different for everyone, and I also agree that if something is bad enough it will get out into the open.
There's also always the possibility a scout talked to a coach or teacher who flat out didn't like the kid, I know for a fact when I was younger if you asked certain authority figures about me you could've gotten entirely different images of me (some very positive, some neutral, some negative).
Also I agree we have to appreciate the work Sy puts in, I'd rather have the info than not have it and I know he works hard at what he does. I think actually I probably more just didn't like the response the scout gave him (being that it was so vague), and from there I realized all Sy was doing was reporting what the guy was saying so can't really blame him.
Thank you for that last but about Sy. I think we all appreciate the work that he puts in and are grateful for having the info that he brings to the table. Much respect to him. As far as scouts are concerned, they are indeed biased with their info and not everything is covered deeply.
I don't think some of you really realize how few practices there are anymore.
I’ll say the interview someone posted on draft night with Toney did not inspire confidence. But Judge supposedly vetted and vouched for this guy and saw him as a culture fit. So if that proves not to be the case that’s on him
Read/listen to what Joe Judge said yesterday about the players, particularly the new ones being there. I posted it in yesterday's OTA update.
He's putting himself behind. That's not me saying that, it's Judge. Of course, Judge may not know what he's talking about either.
Eric, this should be obvious to everyone. Too many people bring their own views into things rather than paying attention to how the people who actually matter see things.
Is teaching teaching teaching. Well you can’t teach guys who aren’t there.
Loads of time to teach, teach, teach during INVOLUNTARY minicamps, camp and preseason..Not to mention online/skype connections..Much ado, imo..As I said in another thread, I don’t recall a HC during the OTAs era, EVER saying PUBLICLY that these aren’t important. They follow the coachspeak route. Plenty, plenty, plenty of time to teach, imv
All we can do is hope the Giants vetting process was sound here and that the coaching staff can get the most out of this kid.
If was out just yesterday, not that concerned. But if he is skipping all of the OTAs, then I would start to wonder if he is getting bad advice from his agent.
PSYCHED -
Aw Shit!
Draft picks have very little leverage in negotiating so I am not surprised that Toney isn’t there until he signs. No one is in any hurry and it isn’t like he is going to be the key to the offense, at least initially. He hasn’t shown any indication that he is a diva.
If was out just yesterday, not that concerned. But if he is skipping all of the OTAs, then I would start to wonder if he is getting bad advice from his agent.
Why is it bad advice? There's a rift in the league right now between the NFLPA and the league and the players are obviously smack dab in the middle of it. Easy for fans to think these guys should simply do whatever the team asks but its clearly not that simple since tons of players aren't reporting.
COVID has made it even worse, impossible to know what the motivations are for each player but if Toney is one of them I'd hope he's communicated it with Judge and will report when he has to.
We should be questioning his work ethic and personal life HARD right now!!!
So that would help
Just have to hope she's not a Giant fan.Because other people might start seeing shoe's thrown in there direction.
😂 hahaha
Let's get the guy signed and things should fall into place.
You've never seen a player lose a shoe during a game?
regardless of if these OTAs are important or not, you'd like to think that he has enough self-awareness to know this and put this to bed by just showing up at these things (even if just to watch if he's hurt). and if he does have good reasons not to be there, then bad job by the team not making them known.
but no, he isn't there and he had cleat issues (i've never heard of that before) that impacted his rookie camp as well. not exactly a great start
also spare me the BS that the giants can't have his negotiations done by now. that's absolute bullshit. they have many, many highly paid full time employees. they don't need to wrap up the later round contracts before the early ones.
ranaan touched on toney briefly in his most recent podcast, which was a good listen.
Quote:
I thought the shoe incident was very bizarre for a pro sports team; however, not going to exactly freak out yet.
You've never seen a player lose a shoe during a game?
Joe Morris on 1985 TD run at home against tge Steelers…:)
I don't really anticipate that Toney will be a problem, he seems to have the right attitude so far
Quote:
I thought the shoe incident was very bizarre for a pro sports team; however, not going to exactly freak out yet.
You've never seen a player lose a shoe during a game?
maybe i'm incorrect but i don't think he lost a shoe. i thought the issue was that he had a cleat that didn't fit that prevented him from finishing practices.
I'm an old fogey and body piercings put me off. So the nose ring bothers me and makes me wonder about his judgment, not his desire.
I'd be more concerned that everyone makes it through these practices healthy.
If was out just yesterday, not that concerned. But if he is skipping all of the OTAs, then I would start to wonder if he is getting bad advice from his agent.
Does he have an agent? I think that is becoming the norm lately and not a good norm.
regardless of if these OTAs are important or not, you'd like to think that he has enough self-awareness to know this and put this to bed by just showing up at these things (even if just to watch if he's hurt). and if he does have good reasons not to be there, then bad job by the team not making them known.
but no, he isn't there and he had cleat issues (i've never heard of that before) that impacted his rookie camp as well. not exactly a great start
also spare me the BS that the giants can't have his negotiations done by now. that's absolute bullshit. they have many, many highly paid full time employees. they don't need to wrap up the later round contracts before the early ones.
ranaan touched on toney briefly in his most recent podcast, which was a good listen.
As of today there is only 10 of the 32 first round draft picks signed by their respective teams. This is standard timing when it comes to 1st round draft picks and I don't expect toney to show up until he has a contract. Why should he? If he gets injured before he has a contract, he risks losing a lot of money.
As far as concerns about character or being a diva? Based on what exactly? He has not said or done anything to give any impression of concern.
Remember what a diva and a headcase Randy Moss was with the Raiders, how fast that changed when he went to a coach (Bill B) who realized dealing with that was just part of the job?
Has this been reported or is it just a poster making shit up?
Has this been reported or is it just a poster making shit up?
Apparently strained a calf muscle in rookie camp.
Remember what a diva and a headcase Randy Moss was with the Raiders, how fast that changed when he went to a coach (Bill B) who realized dealing with that was just part of the job?
Randy Moss went from Aaron Brooks at QB to Tom Brady... come on back to reality.
But I definitely sense he could fall into the wild card category. Some of the stuff Sy suggested was somewhat concerning.
He's certainly going to be an interesting player to watch. If his mind is right, there is a lot there to like physically.
He's putting himself behind. That's not me saying that, it's Judge. Of course, Judge may not know what he's talking about either.
But I definitely sense he could fall into the wild card category. Some of the stuff Sy suggested was somewhat concerning.
He's certainly going to be an interesting player to watch. If his mind is right, there is a lot there to like physically.
What details did Sy mention? I only vague rumors.
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I thought the shoe incident was very bizarre for a pro sports team; however, not going to exactly freak out yet.
You've never seen a player lose a shoe during a game?
I guess you were not tracking the issue. As reported, there were discussions that we couldnt get his shoe size right thus he continued with one shoe.
I'd be more concerned that everyone makes it through these practices healthy.
Any clue what you're talking about then? You contradict and then post this.
So, was it more than a lost shoe now?
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Sounds like he comes from a great family. His dad has had to jump in at times while at FL to get Toney back on track. So I think there is a good support system there.
But I definitely sense he could fall into the wild card category. Some of the stuff Sy suggested was somewhat concerning.
He's certainly going to be an interesting player to watch. If his mind is right, there is a lot there to like physically.
What details did Sy mention? I only vague rumors.
Sy was vague. Seemed to suggest that a scout - or maybe multiple scouts - was/were not very fond of Toney's character. And that that could be a challenge for an NFL team.
But him not attending has no impact on my concern about his past off field gun issues and focus on non-football related matters like RAP music. I would be just as concerned about these things if he were here...
As a jaded Giants fan who has had to endure the sagas of OBJ and DeAndre Baker, only time and Toney's on field performance as a first round draft choice will ultimately allay my concerns.
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In comment 15274644 bw in dc said:
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Sounds like he comes from a great family. His dad has had to jump in at times while at FL to get Toney back on track. So I think there is a good support system there.
But I definitely sense he could fall into the wild card category. Some of the stuff Sy suggested was somewhat concerning.
He's certainly going to be an interesting player to watch. If his mind is right, there is a lot there to like physically.
What details did Sy mention? I only vague rumors.
Sy was vague. Seemed to suggest that a scout - or maybe multiple scouts - was/were not very fond of Toney's character. And that that could be a challenge for an NFL team.
Then why'd you say "some of the stuff"? He didn't mention anything to be able parse 'some' from 'others'? It's hearsay without any reference to specifics. And it's second hand hearsay coming from you. Seems like an overreaction imho.
That said, rookies realistically only have to prove themselves by the time the second contract is due, and by then, missing an OTA won't be a blip on a gnat's ass.
Don't these guys have to sign a waiver to attend? He's going to get signed, so why risk an injury?
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But I remember a day when teams would have guys that were and instead of worrying about it they trusted the coaches to "manage" the personality and find a way to get production out of him.
Remember what a diva and a headcase Randy Moss was with the Raiders, how fast that changed when he went to a coach (Bill B) who realized dealing with that was just part of the job?
Randy Moss went from Aaron Brooks at QB to Tom Brady... come on back to reality.
I do live in reality. The same one where the "Pro Bowl" QB, Dante Culpepper, throwing the ball to Moss posted a stat line of 6 TDs and 12 INTs the season Moss left.
If Moss wanted to play and was giving it his all it really didn't matter who was throwing him the ball.
Sy was vague. Seemed to suggest that a scout - or maybe multiple scouts - was/were not very fond of Toney's character. And that that could be a challenge for an NFL team.
Then why'd you say "some of the stuff"? He didn't mention anything to be able parse 'some' from 'others'? It's hearsay without any reference to specifics. And it's second hand hearsay coming from you. Seems like an overreaction imho.
What I wrote was an overreaction?? Interesting.
I didn't belabor the point or put enough weight/credibility on it to make me think this situation cited by the OP was a potential bad sign.
I remember pre and post draft Sy making comments about Toney's character. It seemed to be several things. And I don't sense that Sy would mention this without feeling that he had credible sources.
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In comment 15274603 Biteymax22 said:
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But I remember a day when teams would have guys that were and instead of worrying about it they trusted the coaches to "manage" the personality and find a way to get production out of him.
Remember what a diva and a headcase Randy Moss was with the Raiders, how fast that changed when he went to a coach (Bill B) who realized dealing with that was just part of the job?
Randy Moss went from Aaron Brooks at QB to Tom Brady... come on back to reality.
I do live in reality. The same one where the "Pro Bowl" QB, Dante Culpepper, throwing the ball to Moss posted a stat line of 6 TDs and 12 INTs the season Moss left.
If Moss wanted to play and was giving it his all it really didn't matter who was throwing him the ball.
In 2004 Culpeppers top WR by yards and receptions was Burleson, not Moss. He spread the ball around a ton to get those 39 TD.
And then he tore his knee in 2005, which effectively ended his career since his mobility was his star attribute.
You are completely wrong.
Ric Serritella of the NFL draft Bible also did this in regards to Micah parsons prior to the draft and to Toney (to a lesser extent) after the draft.
If anyone is going to put the accusations out there, then back it up or don't say anything at all.
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In comment 15274637 90.Cal said:
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In comment 15274603 Biteymax22 said:
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But I remember a day when teams would have guys that were and instead of worrying about it they trusted the coaches to "manage" the personality and find a way to get production out of him.
Remember what a diva and a headcase Randy Moss was with the Raiders, how fast that changed when he went to a coach (Bill B) who realized dealing with that was just part of the job?
Randy Moss went from Aaron Brooks at QB to Tom Brady... come on back to reality.
I do live in reality. The same one where the "Pro Bowl" QB, Dante Culpepper, throwing the ball to Moss posted a stat line of 6 TDs and 12 INTs the season Moss left.
If Moss wanted to play and was giving it his all it really didn't matter who was throwing him the ball.
In 2004 Culpeppers top WR by yards and receptions was Burleson, not Moss. He spread the ball around a ton to get those 39 TD.
And then he tore his knee in 2005, which effectively ended his career since his mobility was his star attribute.
You are completely wrong.
Randy Moss also had 13 TDs in 2004 and was the one that made it possible for Burleson and others to have the production they did. Moss had at least 2 guys on him every play and sometimes garnered triple teams. Its notable that Burleson never even sniffed those numbers during the following 9 seasons in his career.
Yeah Culpepper tore his knee up, but others returned to have productive careers after similar injuries. Culpepper went on to suck for 2 more teams. Moss made him what he was.
Its amazing how fast people forgot how absolutely dominate Randy Moss was when he actually wanted to play. In the scheme of things it really wasn't all that long ago.
Ric Serritella of the NFL draft Bible also did this in regards to Micah parsons prior to the draft and to Toney (to a lesser extent) after the draft.
If anyone is going to put the accusations out there, then back it up or don't say anything at all.
Well, Rico said Parsons was basically off the NYG board based on his psychological profile testing. And he's pretty damn dialed with Jints Central. So remind me - did you ask him to reveal his source(s)?
Furthermore, Sy said after the draft that D.Baker had some red flegs. But didn't mention them specifically. In hindsight, it seems he was onto something there as well...right?
And no one is guessing what Sy may have on Toney. We're just mentioning there may be something. So methinks one doth protest too much here...
Ric Serritella of the NFL draft Bible also did this in regards to Micah parsons prior to the draft and to Toney (to a lesser extent) after the draft.
If anyone is going to put the accusations out there, then back it up or don't say anything at all.
Yeah, I heard that guy on the Insider podcast. Was NOT impressed at all with him. According to him, Parsons was on track to be thrown in jail the night after being drafted. Another one with "my sources......".
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with anyone talking about a players character concerns without stating what they are. I know sy is well regarded around here and I appreciate all of the work he does, but these are players we are talking about and character assassinations without statement of facts.
Ric Serritella of the NFL draft Bible also did this in regards to Micah parsons prior to the draft and to Toney (to a lesser extent) after the draft.
If anyone is going to put the accusations out there, then back it up or don't say anything at all.
Well, Rico said Parsons was basically off the NYG board based on his psychological profile testing. And he's pretty damn dialed with Jints Central. So remind me - did you ask him to reveal his source(s)?
Furthermore, Sy said after the draft that D.Baker had some red flegs. But didn't mention them specifically. In hindsight, it seems he was onto something there as well...right?
And no one is guessing what Sy may have on Toney. We're just mentioning there may be something. So methinks one doth protest too much here...
If the Giants took parsons off their board, they had their reasons but never stated it publicly. Rico giving his insight into the giants thinking isn't him stating that there is character red flags without backing it up.
In regards to baker, again what issues. Work ethic? Attitude? There was nothing to indicate anything that lead to the incident he was involved in last year.
2) WR is a position that often attracts "diva" types. And in fact legit "head case diva" receivers have been some of the most impactful players in the NFL: Chad Ochocinco Johnson, Terrell Owens, and yes our own OBJ. I'd be happy to have a head case diva who plays at that level on the Giants. They're a pain in the ass but worth it, if you have t a strong coach who can manage them. I think Judge is strong enough. If he can't, I trust the current regime to know when to move on, as they did with Beckham. What you want to avoid is head case divas who don't play at that level. Then they're not worth the trouble. You make tradeoffs for talent. But there are limits.
If you want everybody to be Mark Bavaro, you're going to be dissatisfied all the time.
BBI has become a caricature of itself.
He's putting himself behind. That's not me saying that, it's Judge. Of course, Judge may not know what he's talking about either.
Eric-- of course the boss is going to say that. What's he going to say? "Yeah I don't really care whether guys show up for this or not, it's not like we're doing anything that important anyway." Of course Judge is going to be all business, and for him (and for the fans) the ideal is for players to all attend every single voluntary practice.
But IMO, with Toney, you're talking about a guy who hasn't even put his name in ink on any dotted line yet. The team has not signed him. He is currently scheduled to make exactly $0. Not to mention-- it sounds like he strained a calf in rookie camp, which would scare the SHIT out of me if I had just been drafted into the NFL and didn't have a contract yet. So I think waiting until he's signed (even if it's likely just going to be a few days) is completely reasonable. These practices in May are voluntary for a reason. A lot of moves are made after June 1st-- teams aren't even fully complete as of May.
There is no way his contract will be impacted by him missing a couple voluntary practices, so I don't really see how it's "bad advice" from his agent as you alluded to earlier. The only thing that could affect his contract is if he gets injured at one of these practices-- which is what he is trying to protect himself from.
There's also no chance that him missing a practice or 2 in May is going to have any effect on how prepared he is on September 12th. Judge is going to stress that these practices are important because that's this job, but if a guy hasn't even been signed by the team he's obviously going to have competing priorities, especially when we're talking about voluntary practices.
Maybe.
One team's red flags, however, may be another team's BFD. It just depends on how each team/scout defines a red flag.
Personally, when I hear red flags mentioned I usually think of some form of immaturity that has some explanation - smoking, a fight, school work, drinking, etc - that can likely be managed (most of the time). But that's my filter. I tend to think issues that are really problematic - sexual assault, stealing, etc - tend to leak out in the open very quickly.
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In comment 15274644 bw in dc said:
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Sounds like he comes from a great family. His dad has had to jump in at times while at FL to get Toney back on track. So I think there is a good support system there.
But I definitely sense he could fall into the wild card category. Some of the stuff Sy suggested was somewhat concerning.
He's certainly going to be an interesting player to watch. If his mind is right, there is a lot there to like physically.
What details did Sy mention? I only vague rumors.
Sy was vague. Seemed to suggest that a scout - or maybe multiple scouts - was/were not very fond of Toney's character. And that that could be a challenge for an NFL team.
I have to say I also didn't like the vagueness of Sy's report on Toney's character. What happened was he asked a scout about Toney and the guy simply said, "He's trouble." Those 2 words. That's it. To me, sometimes a guy can say less and it makes it sound like he knows something more than we do. But that scout may have literally just had the same information as we had-- i.e. the incidents involving the gun that Toney had a license for and the spray-painted airsoft gun. How do we know that scout had any more information than us? He's scouting several hundred players I'm sure he can only have a surface level amount of info about any given random player. I could totally see those stories cause certain scouts to call him "trouble" and put a red flag next to his name. But personally I think every scout has their own implicit biases just like everyone has.
Baker Mayfield was arrested for public intoxication and his draft stock certainly wasn't hurt at all -- and I don't think anyone here would guess that Mayfield is potentially getting into trouble w/ the law as we speak. His run-in w/ the law was easier to pass off as something a dumb college kid would do that wasn't actually indicative of his deeper character. Remember Toney was never actually even arrested. I see no reason not to assume he did something stupid as a college kid that he could just as well have already grown out of.
Good points though. It's a fair issue to raise.
But what Sy is doing is part of a scout's job - some character and background info. And we wouldn't even know about it if he wasn't willing to share. So I appreciate him doing it to provide some additional perspective. It's a tough balancing act...
From what I recall, Sy stays softens the info be using words like "may", "could", "possibly" etc. So I don't think he's saying it's definitive...
I agree red flags are going to be different for everyone, and I also agree that if something is bad enough it will get out into the open.
There's also always the possibility a scout talked to a coach or teacher who flat out didn't like the kid, I know for a fact when I was younger if you asked certain authority figures about me you could've gotten entirely different images of me (some very positive, some neutral, some negative).
Also I agree we have to appreciate the work Sy puts in, I'd rather have the info than not have it and I know he works hard at what he does. I think actually I probably more just didn't like the response the scout gave him (being that it was so vague), and from there I realized all Sy was doing was reporting what the guy was saying so can't really blame him.
Ric Serritella of the NFL draft Bible also did this in regards to Micah parsons prior to the draft and to Toney (to a lesser extent) after the draft.
If anyone is going to put the accusations out there, then back it up or don't say anything at all.
I agree 100 percent. Stating an arrest record already out in public is one thing. Speculating is another, and it bothers me.
I agree red flags are going to be different for everyone, and I also agree that if something is bad enough it will get out into the open.
There's also always the possibility a scout talked to a coach or teacher who flat out didn't like the kid, I know for a fact when I was younger if you asked certain authority figures about me you could've gotten entirely different images of me (some very positive, some neutral, some negative).
Also I agree we have to appreciate the work Sy puts in, I'd rather have the info than not have it and I know he works hard at what he does. I think actually I probably more just didn't like the response the scout gave him (being that it was so vague), and from there I realized all Sy was doing was reporting what the guy was saying so can't really blame him.
Thank you for that last but about Sy. I think we all appreciate the work that he puts in and are grateful for having the info that he brings to the table. Much respect to him. As far as scouts are concerned, they are indeed biased with their info and not everything is covered deeply.
What you are arguing does not make sense.
Toney has a ton to learn and very little time.
I don't think some of you really realize how few practices there are anymore.
Not me. I would just keep going out to bars, clubs and strip joints. Doing lines. Partying to sunrise.
What you are arguing does not make sense.
Toney has a ton to learn and very little time.
I don't think some of you really realize how few practices there are anymore.
I’ll say the interview someone posted on draft night with Toney did not inspire confidence. But Judge supposedly vetted and vouched for this guy and saw him as a culture fit. So if that proves not to be the case that’s on him
What you are arguing does not make sense.
Toney has a ton to learn and very little time.
I don't think some of you really realize how few practices there are anymore.
The Giants know this better than anyone, and still haven't signed him?
He's putting himself behind. That's not me saying that, it's Judge. Of course, Judge may not know what he's talking about either.
Loads of time to teach, teach, teach during INVOLUNTARY minicamps, camp and preseason..Not to mention online/skype connections..Much ado, imo..As I said in another thread, I don’t recall a HC during the OTAs era, EVER saying PUBLICLY that these aren’t important. They follow the coachspeak route. Plenty, plenty, plenty of time to teach, imv
Don't worry Toney is not a 'head case diva' - ( New Window )