Daniel Jones posted 4 runs of 20+ mph

3-2-1….

but the biggest asset to him and this team will be his arm, ability to read defense, go through his progressions quickly, and his ability to keep turnovers to a minimum.

In comment 15277380 bluewave said:

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but the biggest asset to him and this team will be his arm, ability to read defense, go through his progressions quickly, and his ability to keep turnovers to a minimum.

True and a given for any QB, but now that he has receivers who actually will be able to get separation, his progressions will not have to be as lengthy, imv

He is clearly an accurate deep passer, and he can make play with his legs.

He has the tools.

lends me to believe they are trying to let him use his arm first and foremost.

before taking off.

You would be doing Jones and this offense a disservice by not leveraging what he can do with his legs. The fact that he's a long strider and isn't really the most creative runner means that you'll have to do a lot more designed plays to fully take advantage of that. Of course there is more of a risk of injury but it is a little overblown IMO. QBs are protected and the blindside hit or leg injury in the pocket is more likely to land him on the IR than a bad hit he's expecting past the line of scrimmage as a runner.

There's also his ability as a deep ball passer - that's a complementary skill to his running ability. That's what the Ravens have been doing with Lamar. I'm not the biggest fan of Garrett but I think he did an excellent job getting him involved in that capacity and I'm hoping we see more of it.

that some of the better scramblers have, but you can definitely steal a lot of hidden yards on his skill set. His ability to extend plays might not be in Lamar or Kyler territory but we can make do.

But NFL QBs make their living with their arm and their brain. I think he’s got plenty of both but he has to show that consistently. He should have a good opportunity to do that and I’m looking forward to seeing him this year.

He has wheels, works hard and he has made nice throws. I hope he’s able to put it all together, stay healthy, come through in clutch situations and with his new weapons, lead the Giants out of the football hell we’ve suffered through for the last decade.

In comment 15277401 AcesUp said:

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You would be doing Jones and this offense a disservice by not leveraging what he can do with his legs. The fact that he's a long strider and isn't really the most creative runner means that you'll have to do a lot more designed plays to fully take advantage of that. Of course there is more of a risk of injury but it is a little overblown IMO. QBs are protected and the blindside hit or leg injury in the pocket is more likely to land him on the IR than a bad hit he's expecting past the line of scrimmage as a runner. There's also his ability as a deep ball passer - that's a complementary skill to his running ability. That's what the Ravens have been doing with Lamar. I'm not the biggest fan of Garrett but I think he did an excellent job getting him involved in that capacity and I'm hoping we see more of it.

I don't think that DJ rushing needs to be by design other than counting his rushing attempts as part of his progression.

If he has to get out of the pocket, have a quick plan to throw and don't be afraid to "miss" seeing Slayton open deep...if you don't see him, you don't see him...just run.

Yeah, fans and talking heads will call him out for not throwing but the coaches in the film room will see what he saw and likely praise him for making a positive play.

That dimension of his game

In comment 15277415 BillT said:

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But NFL QBs make their living with their arm and their brain. I think he’s got plenty of both but he has to show that consistently. He should have a good opportunity to do that and I’m looking forward to seeing him this year.

To be an elite perennial All Pro QB? Yes, this is true. But you can be a very good NFL QB that wins your teams football games using your legs. The best coaches learn to shape their scheme around what his players do best. Jones' strengths right now are his legs and his deep ball - you can play those two skills off each other. If teams are worried about what he can do himself with the ball in his hands, that creates space for Saquan and the WRs. If teams start cheating on Jones and Barkley, then you can lean into his strength and make teams pay deep with Golladay and Slayton. Whether he develops into this cerebral QB that knows exactly where to go with the football at all times is up in the air but you can raise his floor and put points on the board with our skill guys and what he currently does well no question.

.

at 65 for the season. And that YPC is a bit skewed by the 80 yarder against Philly. You still count it, but it's not like Jones made anyone miss. It was a complete breakdown of the Philly D.

But here are attempts by other running QBs:

- LJax 159
- Cam 137
- KMurray - 133
- Allen - 102
- Watson - 90

Those are QBs who put real pressure on the defense with their ability to manufacture runs. Now I'm all for Jones running the ball more. But he's not really shifty or quick. And he's a big target. So there is a high element of risk.

In comment 15277435 AcesUp said:

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In comment 15277415 BillT said: Quote: But NFL QBs make their living with their arm and their brain. I think he’s got plenty of both but he has to show that consistently. He should have a good opportunity to do that and I’m looking forward to seeing him this year. To be an elite perennial All Pro QB? Yes, this is true. But you can be a very good NFL QB that wins your teams football games using your legs. The best coaches learn to shape their scheme around what his players do best. Jones' strengths right now are his legs and his deep ball - you can play those two skills off each other. If teams are worried about what he can do himself with the ball in his hands, that creates space for Saquan and the WRs. If teams start cheating on Jones and Barkley, then you can lean into his strength and make teams pay deep with Golladay and Slayton. Whether he develops into this cerebral QB that knows exactly where to go with the football at all times is up in the air but you can raise his floor and put points on the board with our skill guys and what he currently does well no question.

What I want to see is a rushing attack that rotates between Barkley in the backfield, Toney in motion out of the slot, and Jones as a threat to keep it. That can set up tons of options in the passing game, especially when the defense doesn't know who to key on out of the backfield.

He’s got to improve his pocket presence though. He will have to play faster in 2021. I don’t dispute that he has some traits which can be worked with though - good deep ball accuracy, straight line speed, tough, hard worker. Needs to all come together though.

I disagree to some extent. Piggybacking off what djm said, he's not Murray or Jackson in that regard. I think even guys like Fitzpatrick and Mayfield are more instinctual runners than him. Couple that with the fact that he's faster than he is quick and you need to get him in space to really see the returns on that. His explosive plays as a runner last year came more on designed runs and I actually felt like he left a lot of plays on the table by not choosing to run in some cases. That part is kind of a good thing though, you want him thinking pass first when that is the call.

More of those please.

He's a pure pocket passer that also has great size, speed and toughness to run when he feels like it.

But he wants to beat you from the pocket and that's what it takes for sustained success in the NFL.

that even fooled the camera this year. The run in the Cowboys game comes to mind.

In comment 15277464 mittenedman said:

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He's a pure pocket passer that also has great size, speed and toughness to run when he feels like it. But he wants to beat you from the pocket and that's what it takes for sustained success in the NFL.

He has a prototypical build and skill set. He just needs to put it all together.

any of the shifty guys. I'd compare him more to Steve McNair. If Jones can master the art of knowing when to run and when to throw, he can be a big time QB.

And it sure looked like it was all coming together before the hammy.

In comment 15277441 Britt in VA said:

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What I want to see is a rushing attack that rotates between Barkley in the backfield, Toney in motion out of the slot, and Jones as a threat to keep it. That can set up tons of options in the passing game, especially when the defense doesn't know who to key on out of the backfield.

No question, with this personnel that's what the best version of this offense will look like. Make defenders hesitate.

In comment 15277440 bw in dc said:

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at 65 for the season. And that YPC is a bit skewed by the 80 yarder against Philly. You still count it, but it's not like Jones made anyone miss. It was a complete breakdown of the Philly D. But here are attempts by other running QBs: - LJax 159 - Cam 137 - KMurray - 133 - Allen - 102 - Watson - 90 Those are QBs who put real pressure on the defense with their ability to manufacture runs. Now I'm all for Jones running the ball more. But he's not really shifty or quick. And he's a big target. So there is a high element of risk.

Yeah, but.... yeah but

Love the kvetching...

He's not a scrambler for sure. He's a runner. He gets of lot of yards from just the length of his stride.


In comment 15277410 djm said:

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that some of the better scramblers have, but you can definitely steal a lot of hidden yards on his skill set. His ability to extend plays might not be in Lamar or Kyler territory but we can make do.

believes Jones doesn't have the tool set to succeed. He is very fast, he has a strong enough arm, and he is a hard worker that his teammates seem to like and follow.

Where I think most have doubts (including me) is in his ability to "put it all together." That is said like he has shown us 99% of it, and now he just needs to dot the "i."

I am hoping the game slows down for him this year which leads him to putting it all together. But it is the mental part of the position which I think has been his greatest hurdle.

In comment 15277532 Mike from Ohio said:

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believes Jones doesn't have the tool set to succeed. He is very fast, he has a strong enough arm, and he is a hard worker that his teammates seem to like and follow. Where I think most have doubts (including me) is in his ability to "put it all together." That is said like he has shown us 99% of it, and now he just needs to dot the "i." I am hoping the game slows down for him this year which leads him to putting it all together. But it is the mental part of the position which I think has been his greatest hurdle.

Sorry Mike. bw yes, but there’s nothing in Terps’ overall body of comments that indicates he believes DG has the tool set. At best, he said he hopes he’s proven wrong..

Between the ears and instincts, we haven't seen that yet.

This was against Philly in 2019. Jones extends the play in a collapsing pocket, goes to his left and throws a beautiful ball to Tate for a TD.

Not an easy play, video linked below. We need to see more of this.
Link - ( New Window )

Terps doesn't need me speak for him, but he identified Jones pretty early as the QB target for NYG and was very much looking forward to him playing right away for Eli.

So he was somewhat bullish early on.

I doubt the Giants get cute in the backfield. I think Barkley is the primary back and gets 300 carries, and fewer targets in the pass game, maybe 50.

I don’t expect a dink and dunk offense at all. You have to showcase Golladay and Slayton.

The more the Giants utilize routes 10-15 down the field, the more Jones has the room to take off if there’s nothing there. And that’s where he’s a weapon. He gets a lane and he has RB straight line speed.

Cool. Let's see the Giants get to .500 for a change and let's see them stay winners.

But if they can incorporate some designed runs for Jones into the offense...or he has the presence of mind to take off when the opportunity presents itself, then I say go for it.

In comment 15277569 bw in dc said:

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Terps doesn't need me speak for him, but he identified Jones pretty early as the QB target for NYG and was very much looking forward to him playing right away for Eli. So he was somewhat bullish early on.

Perhaps, just referring to his comments after just a season and a half, definitively stating that DJ is not our franchise QB moving forward. Could be right (which I’ve always opined), but way to early for such judgements, imv

In comment 15277577 christian said:

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I doubt the Giants get cute in the backfield. I think Barkley is the primary back and gets 300 carries, and fewer targets in the pass game, maybe 50. I don’t expect a dink and dunk offense at all. You have to showcase Golladay and Slayton. The more the Giants utilize routes 10-15 down the field, the more Jones has the room to take off if there’s nothing there. And that’s where he’s a weapon. He gets a lane and he has RB straight line speed.

That's probably the starting philosophy - make SB the bell cow. And branch out from the there.

But I expect the same approach from what we saw early on from DCs last year. Basically sell out on stopping SB, and force Jones to make plays.

In comment 15277454 AcesUp said:

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I disagree to some extent. Piggybacking off what djm said, he's not Murray or Jackson in that regard. I think even guys like Fitzpatrick and Mayfield are more instinctual runners than him. Couple that with the fact that he's faster than he is quick and you need to get him in space to really see the returns on that. His explosive plays as a runner last year came more on designed runs and I actually felt like he left a lot of plays on the table by not choosing to run in some cases. That part is kind of a good thing though, you want him thinking pass first when that is the call.

Totally agree and if we call a bunch of designed runs for him, he's going to get hurt. Going to the well with him a ton doesn't make any sense because he can't making something out of nothing. It should be to keep defenses honest and have to account for him. Garrett is actually very good about calling QB runs and catching defenses with their pants down. This is why his big runs came on designed runs. You can't just point to that and be like say do that 10 times a game. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of how football works and I see it parroted here quite a bit.

He should also be running when the defense is in man, nothing is open after the initial reads, and they haven't dedicated spy. He can absolutely slice teams with explosive runs in that situation.

If he rushes more than 5-6 times a game, no way he finishes the season.

these highlights from when he was at Duke. Ran for two longs TDs in one game against UNC. One on a QB draw right up the gut, the other on a fake jet sweep and right up the gut again. Start at 1:03 mark.
Jones - ( New Window )

But do it smartly and run out of bounds or slide and not take blows to gain an extra 1-2 yards that don't matter in overall scheme of things.

Designed runs should be in the playbook but same sentiment on taking less hits has to apply.

Otherwise, they need to ensure Glennon gets a lot of first team snaps at practice throughout the year as he will be needed...

I'd prescribe the runs, cut the field in half as much as possible on pass plays, get him out of the pocket on planned rollouts... everything that can be done to get away from him making reads. To me that's his ticket for success in 2021. If he's in the pocket scanning the field, then deciding whether or not to take off and run... that's asking for problems IMO.

That's why I think Garrett isn't going to work for him.

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Big Blue '56 : 2:55 pm In 3-2-1…. bluewave : 2:57 pm That's nice...but the biggest asset to him and this team will be his arm, ability to read defense, go through his progressions quickly, and his ability to keep turnovers to a minimum.

It's enjoyable to see someone call it so well

is a very smart player.

So the answer to that is to dumb things down for him to keep pushing a particular narrative?

I'd think Garrett would be just fine in dumbing things down since so many people already think he's too bland.

It's a bitch when dueling narratives collide....

In comment 15277632 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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is a very smart player.

Based on what? That he went to Duke?

Fitzpatrick went to Harvard and killed the Wonderlic. Yet, he makes some of the dumbest decisions I have ever seen on a football field.

Of all his supposed attributes, football acumen thus far isn't at the top of the list...

on the fact that numerous coached have commented on his ability to quickly learn teh playbook and to help out other players. There's a reason he was ready to play a couple of games into his career.

Or does that not jibe with the idea he's got middling physical tools??

In comment 15277624 Go Terps said:

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I'd prescribe the runs, cut the field in half as much as possible on pass plays, get him out of the pocket on planned rollouts... everything that can be done to get away from him making reads. To me that's his ticket for success in 2021. If he's in the pocket scanning the field, then deciding whether or not to take off and run... that's asking for problems IMO. That's why I think Garrett isn't going to work for him.

Excellent point and I agree

He's not going to get hurt. That's nonsense. I do think the risk is a little overblown, especially when it's a designed play and you can mitigate that risk to some extent. Or he's part of the design but doesn't end up being the ball carrier. Not all rushes are created equal either, how you run him plays a big part. Which is why, even beyond how Jones plays the game, it makes sense to leverage that skillset with designed plays vs having him go offscript. QBs are protected, so if he's running towards the sideline or has the ability to give himself up on the play, the margins start to favor you more. When you look at where Jones is in his development, the expectations of the team and how adventageous it is (even the cheap, angle shooty 15 yard penalties that come with it)...it should absolutely be something that the coaches find ways to use instead of excuses not to.

I'm in agreement as well, the biggest benefit is what it brings to the other players on offense and you don't force it, you take what the defense gives you. But for me, that means not putting him on a pitch count in either direction. You don't say we've got run him X amount of time or we can't run him more than Y. You make it a tangible part of your offense and put it on the front burner when you're looking for opportunities.

In comment 15277637 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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on the fact that numerous coached have commented on his ability to quickly learn teh playbook and to help out other players. There's a reason he was ready to play a couple of games into his career.

As you know, knowing the playbook and making intelligent football decisions in a game aren't mutually exclusive.

And in today's game more than ever, college QBs are ready to go much more quickly because the college game is closer to the pro game.

this is today's version of the shit on Daniel Jones thread (even though it was started with a positive).

I can't wait to see what form tomorrow's takes. All I know is that there will be two specific people posting on it to reiterate how poor jones is.

In comment 15277654 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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this is today's version of the shit on Daniel Jones thread (even though it was started with a positive). I can't wait to see what form tomorrow's takes. All I know is that there will be two specific people posting on it to reiterate how poor jones is.

And you'll be there whining about it, I'm sure.

As for Jones's intelligence...it's one thing to see things on a whiteboard or film, and another to translate it to play speed. Again, we can't say we weren't warned:

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I think NYG may need to steer clear here. Jones has enough arm strength, touch, and athletic ability. But there isn’t a quick mind here, he doesn’t see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based. After a long time scouting him, he is a pass for me.

What we've seen in two years in the NFL aligns perfectly with Sy's statement.
Sy's 2019 QB Draft Preview - ( New Window )

The instincts and being 6’5” is a big target. Cam was able to be effective but he had also operated in a spread offense and is significantly bigger.

I am hoping he improves movement in the pocket and still getting the ball down field. Some boots with pass option are fine. Get yardage and get out of pounds. Last year he got hurt challenging a tackler.

We may even see some type of QB throwback. Both Barkley and Toney can wing it.

With qualities that can help him develop into a great quarterback

I waned him at #6 two years ago, still pleased with the pick.

I subscribe to the belief that Jones is sometimes too smart for his own good.

I'm rooting for the kid. I hope he crushes it this fall. I'm not expecting it, but sure as hell hope I'm wrong.

put on the field to slow him down.

Not so smart QBs that have superior athletic talents can often still beat the players and defensive schemes put on the field to slow him down.

QBs that are smart and/or have superior athletic talents that still can’t often beat Defenses for whatever reason, get replaced...

In comment 15277376 Big Blue '56 said:

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3-2-1….

lmao!

In comment 15277859 montanagiant said:

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In comment 15277376 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: 3-2-1…. lmao!

BB56 whined the other day that people weren't posting on a Jones thread. Lots of posts that add little...
Link - ( New Window )

You're better than this my friend.

In comment 15277893 montanagiant said:

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You're better than this my friend.

Huh?

In comment 15277868 Go Terps said:

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In comment 15277859 montanagiant said: Quote: In comment 15277376 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: 3-2-1…. lmao! BB56 whined the other day that people weren't posting on a Jones thread. Lots of posts that add little... Link - ( New Window )

Yup, everyone whines but you..

is that they can run those 5 to 8 easy yards in open space for a first down when it is there. Eli couldn't and well teams knew it.

The long 20 yards are a great asset too but those are usually had because the defense has a breakdown and fast legs take advantage.

I believe in Jones and I hope he is smart enough to be an "air first" type who runs when there is the right opportunity rather than just cause he can.

point to a positive attribute, ohh no can't have that. Make sure we are reminded of what he hasn't been good at yet. Truly awesome stuff.

"its a message board" - yeah, a miserable one. Get outside and get some fresh air, pet a dog, play with you kids, have some ice cream. Smile a little.

In comment 15277440 bw in dc said:

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at 65 for the season. And that YPC is a bit skewed by the 80 yarder against Philly. You still count it, but it's not like Jones made anyone miss. It was a complete breakdown of the Philly D. But here are attempts by other running QBs: - LJax 159 - Cam 137 - KMurray - 133 - Allen - 102 - Watson - 90 Those are QBs who put real pressure on the defense with their ability to manufacture runs. Now I'm all for Jones running the ball more. But he's not really shifty or quick. And he's a big target. So there is a high element of risk.

Most QB Runs are Based on ESCAPE or Read (when it's an RPO) The idea in either case is to have enough decisiveness and burst and speed to get away from defenders. All the hard work is about decision and first step---these aren't "running plays" where QB's find the first few yards and then fight through tackles.

I am very interested in his running this year. Barkley/Golladay/Toney along with a dual TE means he should be able to have much more freedom to run. I really want 5-7 designed run plays per game with another couple off the cuff when a play breaks down. Injury is the concern there but if he can't handle that then he isn't long for the league anyway.

In comment 15277921 UConn4523 said:

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point to a positive attribute, ohh no can't have that. Make sure we are reminded of what he hasn't been good at yet. Truly awesome stuff. "its a message board" - yeah, a miserable one. Get outside and get some fresh air, pet a dog, play with you kids, have some ice cream. Smile a little.

The special thread was ruined because of some comments that aren't positive to Jones?

If you truly think so then you should follow your own advice.

In comment 15277644 AcesUp said:

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He's not going to get hurt. That's nonsense. I do think the risk is a little overblown, especially when it's a designed play and you can mitigate that risk to some extent. Or he's part of the design but doesn't end up being the ball carrier. Not all rushes are created equal either, how you run him plays a big part. Which is why, even beyond how Jones plays the game, it makes sense to leverage that skillset with designed plays vs having him go offscript. QBs are protected, so if he's running towards the sideline or has the ability to give himself up on the play, the margins start to favor you more. When you look at where Jones is in his development, the expectations of the team and how adventageous it is (even the cheap, angle shooty 15 yard penalties that come with it)...it should absolutely be something that the coaches find ways to use instead of excuses not to. I'm in agreement as well, the biggest benefit is what it brings to the other players on offense and you don't force it, you take what the defense gives you. But for me, that means not putting him on a pitch count in either direction. You don't say we've got run him X amount of time or we can't run him more than Y. You make it a tangible part of your offense and put it on the front burner when you're looking for opportunities.

Yes, agree with a lot of these comments. Risk on Jones will exist no matter how the Offense is designed.

His development as a scrambler/runner should improve along with the rest of his game, including when to mitigate some of that risk in when and how he runs.

In comment 15277932 NYGgolfer said:

Quote:

In comment 15277921 UConn4523 said: Quote: point to a positive attribute, ohh no can't have that. Make sure we are reminded of what he hasn't been good at yet. Truly awesome stuff. "its a message board" - yeah, a miserable one. Get outside and get some fresh air, pet a dog, play with you kids, have some ice cream. Smile a little. The special thread was ruined because of some comments that aren't positive to Jones? If you truly think so then you should follow your own advice.

I have, quite frequently in fact. The time I waste on Jones/Gentleman threads must be down 90%. They are always shitshows and I generally learn nothing from them.

You can also see my follow up, sarcastic post about the OP and how I think he can excel. But that's hard to shit on, right?

*

expressing views and opinions on Daniel Jones.

Good news may be you only have 10% more to reach your goal.

For keeping his eyes downfield and still maneuvering around the pocket. His fumbles, for example, are not all due to having weak hands, but rather where he holds the ball coupled with a lack of awareness about where the pressure is coming from.

And will Daniel Jones continue to stand tall and rigid in the pocket; fixate on a receiver; and get whammed between the shoulder blades by an EDGE rusher? His career as a starting NFL QB is on the line, and this is his most important test.

In comment 15277977 NYGgolfer said:

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expressing views and opinions on Daniel Jones. Good news may be you only have 10% more to reach your goal.

Yeah it does doesn't it? I said it once, was cordial, and didn't obsess over my point being right and someone else's being wrong (because that's what these threads always succumb to and if you think otherwise i've got a bridge to sell you). I post on them less because the conversation has become pretty stupid, repetitive, and always ends up is shitslinging.

Not really sure what you want here anyway. Take your own advice right back if you don't like the way I post then you are free to move on and ignore me. You are free to shit on Jones all you want I'm i'm free to laugh at it. Go nuts man.

may I add a cherry? Unless it was a typo, I see where Josh Allen had 14 fumbles his second year..

And, go..

In comment 15278009 Big Blue '56 said:

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may I add a cherry? Unless it was a typo, I see where Josh Allen had 14 fumbles his second year.. And, go..

He was very careless - true. But he did offset some of that with 20/9, 500+ yards rushing, 9 rushing TDs, and the Bills snuck into the playoffs at 10-6.

was it faster than 20mph? who gives a shit if he runs 19.5 or 20.5mph in some loss. wake me when jones beats a team with a winning record.

In comment 15278129 japanhead said:

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was it faster than 20mph? who gives a shit if he runs 19.5 or 20.5mph in some loss. wake me when jones beats a team with a winning record.

Huh? Speed matters, ask Lamar Jackson. It means that Jones has the ability to be used differently because he's good at it (hopefully Judge isn't scared off by an injury concern). He needs to win more games, which is a separate topic. You might need to go back to sleep.

of running, hits and fumble stats of Allen and Jones in their respective Year 2's:

Allen: 109 rushes, 510 yards, 42 First Downs, 9 TDs, 43 QB Hits, 43 Scrambles, 14 Fumbles

Jones: 65 rushes, 423 yards, 15 First Downs, 1 TDs, 55 QB Hits, 22 Scrambles, 11 Fumbles

In comment 15277440 bw in dc said:

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at 65 for the season. And that YPC is a bit skewed by the 80 yarder against Philly. You still count it, but it's not like Jones made anyone miss. It was a complete breakdown of the Philly D. But here are attempts by other running QBs: - LJax 159 - Cam 137 - KMurray - 133 - Allen - 102 - Watson - 90 Those are QBs who put real pressure on the defense with their ability to manufacture runs. Now I'm all for Jones running the ball more. But he's not really shifty or quick. And he's a big target. So there is a high element of risk.

I agree that the run against Philly showcased his top speed but was the result of a total breakdown by Philly.

In terms of consistent ground game, if you remove the longest* run from the these QBs, you are left with

Lamar: 158 rushes, 955 yards, 55 First Downs (6.04 ypc)
Kyler: 132 rushes, 772 yards, 51 First Downs (5.85 ypc)
Jones: 64 rushes, 343 yards, 14 First Downs (5.36 ypc)

Yes, there's a bit of "well if you remove his best thing, he isn't as good" to this argument, but I do think that it better encapsulates his general performance, especially considering how many fewer rushing attempts he had. Lamar and Kyler are far better scramblers and at generating something out of nothing with their legs, or at least they have proven that more often and with better success.

That said, DJ's top speed and long strides should be a huge benefit this year. With Golloday, Toney, and Barkley on the field together, it should open up several more opportunities for Jones to pick up chunks of yards with his legs in the way that Andrew Luck was able to pick up crucial first downs.

*Lamar's longest was 50, Kyler's was 48, and Jones's was 80.

In comment 15278125 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15278009 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: may I add a cherry? Unless it was a typo, I see where Josh Allen had 14 fumbles his second year.. And, go.. He was very careless - true. But he did offset some of that with 20/9, 500+ yards rushing, 9 rushing TDs, and the Bills snuck into the playoffs at 10-6.

My point was, as with DJ, he was careless in year 2..Let’s see how year 3 for DJ plays out with better personnel

In comment 15278004 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 15277977 NYGgolfer said: Quote: expressing views and opinions on Daniel Jones. Good news may be you only have 10% more to reach your goal. Yeah it does doesn't it? I said it once, was cordial, and didn't obsess over my point being right and someone else's being wrong (because that's what these threads always succumb to and if you think otherwise i've got a bridge to sell you). I post on them less because the conversation has become pretty stupid, repetitive, and always ends up is shitslinging. Not really sure what you want here anyway. Take your own advice right back if you don't like the way I post then you are free to move on and ignore me. You are free to shit on Jones all you want I'm i'm free to laugh at it. Go nuts man.

Yeah, although I don't crap on Daniel Jones. Nor did I give you advice, only noted you aren't following your own. Especially if your view of "these threads" are that they are a mudslinging waste of time.

But I don't want you to fall off the wagon on your goal so will end this here.

I think you can do better.

I love a nice healthy dialogue of contrasting opinions. Once they become an agenda filled obsession i'm generally gone. So yeah i'll participate to an extent (the 10%). Hope that makes sense.

In comment 15278139 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 15278129 japanhead said: Quote: was it faster than 20mph? who gives a shit if he runs 19.5 or 20.5mph in some loss. wake me when jones beats a team with a winning record. Huh? Speed matters, ask Lamar Jackson. It means that Jones has the ability to be used differently because he's good at it (hopefully Judge isn't scared off by an injury concern). He needs to win more games, which is a separate topic. You might need to go back to sleep.

you're comparing jones to lamar jackson? LMAO.

and judge should be concerned about the potential for injury. jones missed time both years with leg injuries. year one it was on a QB sneak IIRC. fair enough. but this past year it was on some run. he's not instinctual and elusive like jackson, and so has a higher injury risk.

again: i'll be happy when jones shows he has what it takes between the ears, i could give a shit how fast he ran four times.

I gave you an example of where speed matters. In a previous thread we got a breakdown from Gillbride on how Eli isn't beating you with his legs - Lamar does. Jones can. Following? No reason to be this damn dense.

The injury is a concern but if him being mobile means he's a starting caliber QB, they have to move forward with that gameplan. If Jones can't sustain it, he isn't long for this league.

If i'm Judge I use 2021 to make Jones into a dual threat QB and either reap the benefits now (Jones playing better) or reap the benefits of pivoting to a new QB in the 2022 draft if Jones can't hold up and keeps getting injured.

In comment 15277637 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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on the fact that numerous coached have commented on his ability to quickly learn teh playbook and to help out other players. There's a reason he was ready to play a couple of games into his career. Or does that not jibe with the idea he's got middling physical tools??

Stupid take. Sy's draft scouting report suggested Jones' most significant problem was processing information quickly. Agree or disagree with that, but to say that is something people with an agenda made up as part of an agenda is just completely baseless.

Unless Sy is also "one of them!!!"

In comment 15278266 UConn4523 said:

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The injury is a concern but if him being mobile means he's a starting caliber QB, they have to move forward with that gameplan. If Jones can't sustain it, he isn't long for this league. If i'm Judge I use 2021 to make Jones into a dual threat QB and either reap the benefits now (Jones playing better) or reap the benefits of pivoting to a new QB in the 2022 draft if Jones can't hold up and keeps getting injured.

I completely agree with this. If the Giants aren't running Jones they aren't using him as best they can. To this point he's only been running 4 times a game. That number needs to be around 8 per game at least. For comparison's sake, Lamar Jackson has averaged 11.2/game the last two seasons (his two full seasons as starter.

It's a major weapon with Jones. Use it.

.

most things that increase risk of injury but I’ve backed off that stance these last few years. We see how quickly teams can get better and moving past an injury quickly is pretty much expected now. We have a bit of a bad taste of player development pre-Judge but that’s history as far as I’m concerned. I’d like to think if Jones can’t hold up we truck right along and simply move in another direction.

Because I think about how open those plays were for him last year/how effective they were..and majority of that was without Saquon. Thinking about how hard teams over-pursue Saquon his first few years and those Qb running plays would be a great complement to Barkley, and I think SB’s presence would only make them that much more effective. Throw in some jet sweep action to Toney and it gets even more interesting.

DJ can be a double threat. Take away his wheels (which effectively derailed his season) or any mobile QB’s wheels and you hamstring him. To what degree? Speculative at this point, but imv, had DJ had full mobility, there’s no question in my mind that we win the division. It’s academic now, but I’m looking for improvement in several areas of the O..

We’re going to surprise, imo.

To have some designed runs from the pocket. More QB draws. Would love to see this against the WFT.

On paper the Giants should have the best offense in the division:

- Healthy QB, in his 3rd year
- Best RB in the league, who by all reports is healthy and ready
- WR group talent-wise right there
- TE group talent-wise right there
- Hand picked offensive line by Judge

Given the investment, the surprise should really be if the Giants don’t produce.

In comment 15278193 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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In comment 15277440 bw in dc said: Quote: at 65 for the season. And that YPC is a bit skewed by the 80 yarder against Philly. You still count it, but it's not like Jones made anyone miss. It was a complete breakdown of the Philly D. But here are attempts by other running QBs: - LJax 159 - Cam 137 - KMurray - 133 - Allen - 102 - Watson - 90 Those are QBs who put real pressure on the defense with their ability to manufacture runs. Now I'm all for Jones running the ball more. But he's not really shifty or quick. And he's a big target. So there is a high element of risk. I agree that the run against Philly showcased his top speed but was the result of a total breakdown by Philly. In terms of consistent ground game, if you remove the longest* run from the these QBs, you are left with Lamar: 158 rushes, 955 yards, 55 First Downs (6.04 ypc) Kyler: 132 rushes, 772 yards, 51 First Downs (5.85 ypc) Jones: 64 rushes, 343 yards, 14 First Downs (5.36 ypc) Yes, there's a bit of "well if you remove his best thing, he isn't as good" to this argument, but I do think that it better encapsulates his general performance, especially considering how many fewer rushing attempts he had. Lamar and Kyler are far better scramblers and at generating something out of nothing with their legs, or at least they have proven that more often and with better success. That said, DJ's top speed and long strides should be a huge benefit this year. With Golloday, Toney, and Barkley on the field together, it should open up several more opportunities for Jones to pick up chunks of yards with his legs in the way that Andrew Luck was able to pick up crucial first downs. *Lamar's longest was 50, Kyler's was 48, and Jones's was 80.

Good post. I'm on board with running DJ more. A lot more. The risk is high, due to the lack of wiggle, but with the other first round pick in '22, it's worth the stretch.

In comment 15278193 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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In comment 15277440 bw in dc said: Quote: at 65 for the season. And that YPC is a bit skewed by the 80 yarder against Philly. You still count it, but it's not like Jones made anyone miss. It was a complete breakdown of the Philly D. But here are attempts by other running QBs: - LJax 159 - Cam 137 - KMurray - 133 - Allen - 102 - Watson - 90 Those are QBs who put real pressure on the defense with their ability to manufacture runs. Now I'm all for Jones running the ball more. But he's not really shifty or quick. And he's a big target. So there is a high element of risk. I agree that the run against Philly showcased his top speed but was the result of a total breakdown by Philly. In terms of consistent ground game, if you remove the longest* run from the these QBs, you are left with Lamar: 158 rushes, 955 yards, 55 First Downs (6.04 ypc) Kyler: 132 rushes, 772 yards, 51 First Downs (5.85 ypc) Jones: 64 rushes, 343 yards, 14 First Downs (5.36 ypc) Yes, there's a bit of "well if you remove his best thing, he isn't as good" to this argument, but I do think that it better encapsulates his general performance, especially considering how many fewer rushing attempts he had. Lamar and Kyler are far better scramblers and at generating something out of nothing with their legs, or at least they have proven that more often and with better success. That said, DJ's top speed and long strides should be a huge benefit this year. With Golloday, Toney, and Barkley on the field together, it should open up several more opportunities for Jones to pick up chunks of yards with his legs in the way that Andrew Luck was able to pick up crucial first downs. *Lamar's longest was 50, Kyler's was 48, and Jones's was 80.

I think its worth noting that Kyler is throwing to Hopkins and Jackson is behind one of the best lines in football. The only luxury Jones has had was a limited Barkley his rookie year.

I bet we are able to be more creative with play designs this year due to the increased investment in tools for Jones. When you don't have a WR worth doubling, and you don't have a RB on the team that can score on any given touch, its pretty easy to contain the QB.

In comment 15278534 bw in dc said:

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In comment 15278193 PaulBlakeTSU said: Quote: In comment 15277440 bw in dc said: Quote: at 65 for the season. And that YPC is a bit skewed by the 80 yarder against Philly. You still count it, but it's not like Jones made anyone miss. It was a complete breakdown of the Philly D. But here are attempts by other running QBs: - LJax 159 - Cam 137 - KMurray - 133 - Allen - 102 - Watson - 90 Those are QBs who put real pressure on the defense with their ability to manufacture runs. Now I'm all for Jones running the ball more. But he's not really shifty or quick. And he's a big target. So there is a high element of risk. I agree that the run against Philly showcased his top speed but was the result of a total breakdown by Philly. In terms of consistent ground game, if you remove the longest* run from the these QBs, you are left with Lamar: 158 rushes, 955 yards, 55 First Downs (6.04 ypc) Kyler: 132 rushes, 772 yards, 51 First Downs (5.85 ypc) Jones: 64 rushes, 343 yards, 14 First Downs (5.36 ypc) Yes, there's a bit of "well if you remove his best thing, he isn't as good" to this argument, but I do think that it better encapsulates his general performance, especially considering how many fewer rushing attempts he had. Lamar and Kyler are far better scramblers and at generating something out of nothing with their legs, or at least they have proven that more often and with better success. That said, DJ's top speed and long strides should be a huge benefit this year. With Golloday, Toney, and Barkley on the field together, it should open up several more opportunities for Jones to pick up chunks of yards with his legs in the way that Andrew Luck was able to pick up crucial first downs. *Lamar's longest was 50, Kyler's was 48, and Jones's was 80. Good post. I'm on board with running DJ more. A lot more. The risk is high, due to the lack of wiggle, but with the other first round pick in '22, it's worth the stretch.

Are you saying that since the team won't give up on him, you're new secret plan is to incapacitate him?

In comment 15278561 Bill L said:

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Are you saying that since the team won't give up on him, you're new secret plan is to incapacitate him?

I do have a new secret plan, but it's not that... ;)

Except running for the sticks, if the field is open; same for up the middle. Even Tom Brady takes that. In Jones case, he has shown he can take it to the house.

As far as trying to imitate Lamar Jackson, he's fast enough but not agile enough to avoid contact, no thanks.

that's an impossible task since they aren't the same kind of athlete. But I do want designed run plays for sure and they should be even more effective with actual WR threats on the team now. I envision Kaepernick-type play designs (i'm regretting saying that name already) but with a better passer.

In comment 15278575 UConn4523 said:

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that's an impossible task since they aren't the same kind of athlete. But I do want designed run plays for sure and they should be even more effective with actual WR threats on the team now. I envision Kaepernick-type play designs (i'm regretting saying that name already) but with a better passer.

Me too.

I could see them being freaked out by the injury and wanting to expose Jones less. I also think there are people in that building that view him as Eli 2.0 and want him used that way. It may have been telling that they brought in Glennon (totally immobile pocket QB) to be the backup.

I expect them to try to operate with Jones primarily in the pocket.

In comment 15278593 Go Terps said:

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I could see them being freaked out by the injury and wanting to expose Jones less. I also think there are people in that building that view him as Eli 2.0 and want him used that way. It may have been telling that they brought in Glennon (totally immobile pocket QB) to be the backup. I expect them to try to operate with Jones primarily in the pocket.

If that’s the case then you either think Judge is full of shit when he talked about finding out what a player does well as opposed to what he can’t do. Or Judge doesn’t have the say in the organization we think he does.

He strikes me as someone who would identify Jones in the pocket as not a strength. They’re trying to win after all.

In comment 15278593 Go Terps said:

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I could see them being freaked out by the injury and wanting to expose Jones less. I also think there are people in that building that view him as Eli 2.0 and want him used that way. It may have been telling that they brought in Glennon (totally immobile pocket QB) to be the backup. I expect them to try to operate with Jones primarily in the pocket.

Undoubtedly, One Giants Way were pursuing Eli 2.0 when they drafted Eli. But I think that was based more on Jones's persona and training, not his physical attributes.

Because Jones is much, much more athletic than Eli, but Eli is John Nash in the pocket with his decision making compared to Jones. And Eli had better arm talent.

Now, I'm all far Jones getting better in the pocket, but to reduce him to mostly a pocket QB would be, as our fat friend in Charlotte says, obtuse...

The best case outcome is Jones has the presence and protection to push the ball downfield with his arm.

You don't go to the top of the free agent market and spend a first round pick on WRs to not throw the ball.

When teams truly really respect that the Giants can protect the QB and have to respect their WRs downfield, those big chunk plays will be open for Jones on the ground too.

In comment 15278601 bw in dc said:

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In comment 15278593 Go Terps said: Quote: I could see them being freaked out by the injury and wanting to expose Jones less. I also think there are people in that building that view him as Eli 2.0 and want him used that way. It may have been telling that they brought in Glennon (totally immobile pocket QB) to be the backup. I expect them to try to operate with Jones primarily in the pocket. Undoubtedly, One Giants Way were pursuing Eli 2.0 when they drafted Eli. But I think that was based more on Jones's persona and training, not his physical attributes. Because Jones is much, much more athletic than Eli, but Eli is John Nash in the pocket with his decision making compared to Jones. And Eli had better arm talent. Now, I'm all far Jones getting better in the pocket, but to reduce him to mostly a pocket QB would be, as our fat friend in Charlotte says, obtuse...

They’re not going to relegate DJ to the pocket only, imo. They will have a diverse offense. He doesn’t have to run a ton like LJ, just enough to keep things honest, pick up key first downs and move the chains in multiple ways, imv..

To think otherwise is folly, I believe

In comment 15278528 christian said:

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On paper the Giants should have the best offense in the division: - Healthy QB, in his 3rd year - Best RB in the league, who by all reports is healthy and ready - WR group talent-wise right there - TE group talent-wise right there - Hand picked offensive line by Judge Given the investment, the surprise should really be if the Giants don’t produce.

I'm seeing Jones having a Jared Goff 2018 season

from the pocket is full of shit.

There is hardly ever a pocket...

In comment 15277543 Go Terps said:

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Between the ears and instincts, we haven't seen that yet.

I think people get defensive when hearing that criticism because it can sound like Jones is being called an idiot. But it's not that simple. He's surely a bright guy, but maybe he's just .5 seconds slower processing information than ideal, or just a half yard off in his spatial awareness.

In comment 15278622 santacruzom said:

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In comment 15277543 Go Terps said: Quote: Between the ears and instincts, we haven't seen that yet. I think people get defensive when hearing that criticism because it can sound like Jones is being called an idiot. But it's not that simple. He's surely a bright guy, but maybe he's just .5 seconds slower processing information than ideal, or just a half yard off in his spatial awareness.

Or maybe I would get more separation than last year’s receivers did..:)

In comment 15278597 Sean said:

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In comment 15278593 Go Terps said: Quote: I could see them being freaked out by the injury and wanting to expose Jones less. I also think there are people in that building that view him as Eli 2.0 and want him used that way. It may have been telling that they brought in Glennon (totally immobile pocket QB) to be the backup. I expect them to try to operate with Jones primarily in the pocket. If that’s the case then you either think Judge is full of shit when he talked about finding out what a player does well as opposed to what he can’t do. Or Judge doesn’t have the say in the organization we think he does. He strikes me as someone who would identify Jones in the pocket as not a strength. They’re trying to win after all.

I think it's the latter, obviously.

I don’t think the Giants are that dysfunctional. We’ll see I suppose.

In comment 15278629 Sean said:

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I don’t think the Giants are that dysfunctional. We’ll see I suppose.

There are lots of people in that building with different timelines, job securities, and potentially different agendas. I'm expecting things to become clearer after 2021 as things become further consolidated under Judge. I don't think we're there yet though.

In comment 15278617 Route 9 said:

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In comment 15278528 christian said: Quote: On paper the Giants should have the best offense in the division: - Healthy QB, in his 3rd year - Best RB in the league, who by all reports is healthy and ready - WR group talent-wise right there - TE group talent-wise right there - Hand picked offensive line by Judge Given the investment, the surprise should really be if the Giants don’t produce. I'm seeing Jones having a Jared Goff 2018 season

The Cowboys on paper are a better offense. They certainly have potential to go south if injuries on OL mount (which they have recently). The Cowboys top 3 are better than our top 3 WRs. Our TE group is better. Zeke is a tier down from Saquon, but Tony Pollard is better than Booker.

But their offensive line (when healthy) being much better tips the scales in their favor unless you think DJ is much better than Dak entering his 3rd year.

Even if Jones doesn't develop into a top tier QB, a good OC should be able to put together a decent offense with his skillset.

Him and Golladay should thrive together.

- DJ is an absolute weapon on designed runs. It's probably the only elite part of his game. I would even argue he is one of the top running QBs in the game - on designed runs where he can utilize his straight line speed.

- He's not the same on the run avoiding pressure in the pocket like a LJax or a K. Murray. He doesn't have that quickness or awareness that those guys have. They are different animals.

- DJ will continue to get hurt. In two seasons he has suffered two leg injuries that he tried to come back from and wasn't the same player. That's a big problem. How do you continue to use DJ and his elite straight line speed and expect to compete knowing in doing so he will get injured and not come back the same player. This is the kind of stuff that kills the careers of OCs.

- DJ being Jared Goff keeps me up at night. Good for the Rams for moving on from him. He was going to continue to keep one of the best rosters in the NFL from being perennial contenders. I don't like Stafford either, but Goff wasn't going to get them there - and they knew it.
I REALLY hope that the Giants aren't facing the same problem at the end of this year. And they very well could be.

Having said all that - I do think the DJ can be better than Goff and the tape I've seen on him throwing the ball was better the second time around. I do think he can develop into one of the better pocket passers in the league this year. It's put up or shut time for DJ b/c the Giants have the ammo to go get whoever they want in the draft next year if he's not the answer.

...I think that we will find out this season.

I think one of the ways you utilize his speed is by keeping him on the minds of backside defenders by running him just enough on ZR's to keep them from flattening and attacking SB or bootlegging off of same and throwing.

I think that you keep him safe by not overdoing it.

IMO, he could be a far better QB than Jackson, he has this season to show it.

when they gave him that ridiculous contract in the first place. They cut their losses as best they could but you can make a very real argument that extending him in the first place fucked up their chance at a title. They picked up his 5th year option after his horrid SuperBowl and then decided it was smart to pay him long term a few months later. I think Stafford is an upgrade but it might be too late.

"Eli 2.0" narrative is one completely fabricated yet spouted off here thread after thread.

And not surprisingly, it is used derisively.

They didn't just want to draft a QB, they wanted the same guy as Eli - except he's not the same in so many ways. That hasn't stopped the creation of a fable though.

the Giants WOULDN'T want to draft Eli 2.0...as a matter of fact, I don't understand why ANY NFL franchise wouldn't not want to draft Eli 2.0?

So if the Giant's drafted DJ thinking he's Eli 2.0...what's wrong with that?

He's only a two time Super Bowl champ, sure fire HOFer, and complete class act as a face of the franchise.

DJ and Eli aren't the same player - they have some similar characteristics in some aspects of their games and personalities, so I get the comparisons...the only thing that worries me about them is that it's really hard to come after a franchise legend.

In comment 15279141 Dnew15 said:

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So if the Giant's drafted DJ thinking he's Eli 2.0...what's wrong with that?

The implication is that we over drafted a player just to fit the mold of something we wanted. I don't think that's completely untrue since moving on from Eli was so hard for Mara.

But they are completely different players so there's no real merit in the actual tool set for that comparison to be accurate.

on any thread over the past 15 years or so.

2 MPH...

In comment 15279158 Jimmy Googs said:

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2 MPH...

Who can forget the run in London?

In comment 15279123 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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"Eli 2.0" narrative is one completely fabricated yet spouted off here thread after thread. And not surprisingly, it is used derisively. They didn't just want to draft a QB, they wanted the same guy as Eli - except he's not the same in so many ways. That hasn't stopped the creation of a fable though.

They both look like virgins and are white. Same person.

In comment 15279151 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 15279141 Dnew15 said: Quote: So if the Giant's drafted DJ thinking he's Eli 2.0...what's wrong with that? The implication is that we over drafted a player just to fit the mold of something we wanted. I don't think that's completely untrue since moving on from Eli was so hard for Mara. But they are completely different players so there's no real merit in the actual tool set for that comparison to be accurate.

I think that there is some truth to the fact that the Giants who had tremendous success with Eli, were attracted to a prospect with a similar (not identical) pedigree and personality

In comment 15279141 Dnew15 said:

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the Giants WOULDN'T want to draft Eli 2.0...as a matter of fact, I don't understand why ANY NFL franchise wouldn't not want to draft Eli 2.0?

Of course Jints Central wanted Eli 2.0.

That is largely centered on Eli's personality and professionalism. Jones is quiet, dependable off the field, keeps it simple with the press and doesn't seek the limelight. All very similar traits to Eli.

And the final piece to completing the Eli 2.0 equation was/is the connection to Cutcliffe, a trustworthy QB mentor to the Mannings.

I mean, if you can't see all of these connections, you can't see...

In comment 15279164 Jimmy Googs said:

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQh-drPAh4I

Slide, DiMaggio, slide!

Wait a minute...I'm not DiMaggio...

But just b/c it was a Jints Central move doesn't automatically make it a mistake.

be what EVERY team wants in a QB?

Are we somehow dumb for seeking that out?

In comment 15279183 Britt in VA said:

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be what EVERY team wants in a QB? Are we somehow dumb for seeking that out?

Yes, because this kid isn't in Eli's universe.

In comment 15279167 ron mexico said:

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In comment 15279151 UConn4523 said: Quote: In comment 15279141 Dnew15 said: Quote: So if the Giant's drafted DJ thinking he's Eli 2.0...what's wrong with that? The implication is that we over drafted a player just to fit the mold of something we wanted. I don't think that's completely untrue since moving on from Eli was so hard for Mara. But they are completely different players so there's no real merit in the actual tool set for that comparison to be accurate. I think that there is some truth to the fact that the Giants who had tremendous success with Eli, were attracted to a prospect with a similar (not identical) pedigree and personality

Yeah, I don't know why its not plausible to think they saw a lot of similar persona and playing traits in Jones but with the added plus of better speed/mobility.

And while they may have been on target with the persona and mobility takes, they may have overrated his QB playing abilities.

We'll see...

In comment 15279183 Britt in VA said:

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be what EVERY team wants in a QB? Are we somehow dumb for seeking that out?

I'm not talking about whether he is or isn't, but the idea of the Giants seeking out Eli 2.0 is usually stated like it's a bad thing.

In comment 15279186 Jimmy Googs said:

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And while they may have been on target with the persona and mobility takes, they may have overrated his QB playing abilities. We'll see...

And that's ultimately the key here - did they overrate Jones's skills and ability to win football games?

So far it seems they likely did.

In comment 15279175 Klaatu said:

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In comment 15279164 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQh-drPAh4I Slide, DiMaggio, slide! Wait a minute...I'm not DiMaggio...

I actually love that video of clips.

While no one will mistake his running for Fran Tarkenton or Roger the Dodger Staubach, Eli just shows what a good football player he really was with his recognition, effort and desire to win with those runs. And how appropriate that his "escapability" efforts, of all QBs that have played the game, led to probably the greatest play in Super Bowl history...

In comment 15279188 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 15279183 Britt in VA said: Quote: be what EVERY team wants in a QB? Are we somehow dumb for seeking that out? I'm not talking about whether he is or isn't, but the idea of the Giants seeking out Eli 2.0 is usually stated like it's a bad thing.

It is a bad thing. Eli was a special and unique player. Looking for another version of him isn't just foolhardy, it could skew objectivity in your search. If you're looking for Eli you might pass on Lamar Jackson, for example.

It's also not fair to Jones. He isn't Eli and shouldn't be used like he is.

we also bypassed Darnold which seems like a wise decision. You win some you lose some. Plenty of teams passed on Lamar Jackson, so the ones that needed a QB are also foolish I guess.

In comment 15279203 UConn4523 said:

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we also bypassed Darnold which seems like a wise decision. You win some you lose some. Plenty of teams passed on Lamar Jackson, so the ones that needed a QB are also foolish I guess.

Yes they are. Doesn't make the Giants any less foolish.

In comment 15279191 bw in dc said:

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In comment 15279186 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: And while they may have been on target with the persona and mobility takes, they may have overrated his QB playing abilities. We'll see... And that's ultimately the key here - did they overrate Jones's skills and ability to win football games? So far it seems they likely did.

This seems like a very fair statement...thus far.

guys to draft thru a good evaluation process, and not give too much credit for passing on the wrong guys.

The context is a team that has had one winning record in a decade and picking at the very top of the draft for several years now. They basically had their pick of the litter...

In comment 15279204 Go Terps said:

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In comment 15279203 UConn4523 said: Quote: we also bypassed Darnold which seems like a wise decision. You win some you lose some. Plenty of teams passed on Lamar Jackson, so the ones that needed a QB are also foolish I guess. Yes they are. Doesn't make the Giants any less foolish.

Never said it did.

Eli shouldn’t be the measuring stick for Jones

He can still be an asset and a great pick even if he doesn’t win two chips and play a million games in a row.

I don’t get how people dismiss this.
Link - ( New Window )

Call me old school, but I prefer a pocket QB. I just worry too much about injuries to QBs when they start running, though I guess Wilson is an exception to that.

In comment 15279588 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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Call me old school, but I prefer a pocket QB. I just worry too much about injuries to QBs when they start running, though I guess Wilson is an exception to that.

Daniel Jones IS a pocket QB. He just needs a pocket.

What Sean posted above you is a bonus part to his game, but can also be designed around. Judging by that vid above, they’re already designing around it.

In comment 15279626 Britt in VA said:

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Daniel Jones IS a pocket QB. He just needs a pocket.

There may be a filet mignon there but a lot of fat needs to be trimmed still. So I'm not sold - yet - that Jones does have what it takes to be an effective NFL pocket QB...

Jones is most certainly NOT a pocket QB.
Daniel Jones has the pocket sense of the actor/actress playing the first victim in the opener of a horror film. - ( New Window )

That doesn't show me he's not a pocket passer. It's one play.

The guy admits neither of his first two reads are open. By the time it's time to go to his third read, the pocket collapses into him, and he runs. I love how the reviewer then says "oh, he did get a first down on that play".

Daniel Jones has the prototypical size and build to be a pocket passer. He has the tools. His accuracy is good and his arm is good enough. The coaches can develop him.

I'm sure you can find other examples but that one was really poor, IMO.

most i learned from that video is that he should have just taken off up the middle but is probably trying to stay at home. Why? Hard to say but I don't think its because he can't process what's going on.

That said its an area of his game that absolutely needs improvement so i'm not excusing it.

awareness in one game?

Tom Brady - in Super Bowl XLII

From what I saw in that video, he did everything he was supposed to do, but perhaps didn't process it fast enough.

And yes, I read Sy's scouting report. That doesn't mean that the NFL won't slow down for him.

who is less than 1 second between the 2nd and 3rd read was already in his face.

- The OL had 1 v 1 assignments and Donald won
- There was no TE chip from Smith
- There was no RB in the backfield to assist
- Jones needs to take what's being given and going up the middle, IMO. No idea if this clip shows his processing, its basically whatever you want to believe.

DJ's first two reads are very rarely open.

This year - they will be. I have a feeling we will be discussing how much better his pocket awareness is.

I think it'll start with OL being better b/c he won't have to deal with a guy in his face after .5 seconds too frequently. Good protection = QB with good pocket awareness.

I also think we'll be talking about how DJ has gotten better at not throwing the ball to the other team because he doesn't have to dot every throw because the CB is all over his 1st two reads. When his initial read is open - it makes your pocket awareness look great.

We'll also be talking about how he's not fumbling the football b/c he won't have to hold it for so long waiting for someone to come open. Being able to get rid of the ball quickly - makes your pocket awareness look rock solid.

I was a big DJ sucks guy and I'm still not a 100% sold - but after re-watching - I still have optimism he can turn into a good NFL QB.

In comment 15279755 Britt in VA said:

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From what I saw in that video, he did everything he was supposed to do, but perhaps didn't process it fast enough. And yes, I read Sy's scouting report. That doesn't mean that the NFL won't slow down for him.

Doesn't mean it will, either. No reason to expect it.

i'm sure if coaches took that approach with every player there'd be a whole lot of really good players cut and gone across the league.

If, as Sy observed, the game never slowed down for Jones at Duke...why would it slow down for him in the NFL?

It's not like Jones was a great college player who's simply adjusting to NFL speed...he lost his last home game 59-7 to Wake Forest.

This is who he's been throughout.

Would you trade Daniel Jones straight up for Mac Jones? Obviously the running ability adds a layer which Mac doesn’t have.

In comment 15279782 Go Terps said:

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If, as Sy observed, the game never slowed down for Jones at Duke...why would it slow down for him in the NFL? It's not like Jones was a great college player who's simply adjusting to NFL speed...he lost his last home game 59-7 to Wake Forest. This is who he's been throughout.

We are going to find out soon enough aren't we? And the reasons why its possible have been listed - you seem to ignore them every single time or think they don't matter.

In comment 15279782 Go Terps said:

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If, as Sy observed, the game never slowed down for Jones at Duke...why would it slow down for him in the NFL?

Because many young NFL players get better...

In comment 15279784 Sean said:

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Would you trade Daniel Jones straight up for Mac Jones? Obviously the running ability adds a layer which Mac doesn’t have.

Yes. I don't love Mac but as far as I'm concerned the unknown is better than what Daniel brings, and I'm adding rookie QB years doing it.

In comment 15279788 Jimmy Googs said:

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In comment 15279782 Go Terps said: Quote: If, as Sy observed, the game never slowed down for Jones at Duke...why would it slow down for him in the NFL? Because many young NFL players get better...

And a great many more don't.

In comment 15279787 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 15279782 Go Terps said: Quote: If, as Sy observed, the game never slowed down for Jones at Duke...why would it slow down for him in the NFL? It's not like Jones was a great college player who's simply adjusting to NFL speed...he lost his last home game 59-7 to Wake Forest. This is who he's been throughout. We are going to find out soon enough aren't we? And the reasons why its possible have been listed - you seem to ignore them every single time or think they don't matter.

Anything is possible. None of the reasons are compelling IMO.

its settled then!

In comment 15279796 UConn4523 said:

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its settled then!

The reasons started around here for why he'll get better all seem to revolve around hoping something happens that's never happened with him in college or the pros. They sound more like "We want him to be good because we're fans... anything is possible!"

Would we be making those same arguments for him objectively if he played for the Cowboys or Eagles? I think we'd all be saying he sucks.

.

In comment 15279803 Go Terps said:

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In comment 15279796 UConn4523 said: Quote: its settled then! The reasons started around here for why he'll get better all seem to revolve around hoping something happens that's never happened with him in college or the pros. They sound more like "We want him to be good because we're fans... anything is possible!" Would we be making those same arguments for him objectively if he played for the Cowboys or Eagles? I think we'd all be saying he sucks.

Wouldn't that apply to almost everything on this team, not just Jones?

In comment 15279803 Go Terps said:

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In comment 15279796 UConn4523 said: Quote: its settled then! The reasons started around here for why he'll get better all seem to revolve around hoping something happens that's never happened with him in college or the pros. They sound more like "We want him to be good because we're fans... anything is possible!" Would we be making those same arguments for him objectively if he played for the Cowboys or Eagles? I think we'd all be saying he sucks.

It's possible NYG team doctors develop superseureum and administer it to Jones making him Captain New York.

We don't have all the information so it's impossible to rule that out

it doesn't change anything. You are beyond obsessed at this point with making sure everyone knows that their opinions aren't rooted in any sort of fact, apparently. And since it isn't, you're go to is "that isn't compelling". Cool, great discussion.

What's your goal? You really don't seem to be open to a reasonable discussion anymore.

In comment 15279793 Go Terps said:

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In comment 15279788 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: In comment 15279782 Go Terps said: Quote: If, as Sy observed, the game never slowed down for Jones at Duke...why would it slow down for him in the NFL? Because many young NFL players get better... And a great many more don't.

Many don't. But clearly many do without getting into the odds of it which will be subjective anyway.

In comment 15279812 UConn4523 said:

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it doesn't change anything. You are beyond obsessed at this point with making sure everyone knows that their opinions aren't rooted in any sort of fact, apparently. And since it isn't, you're go to is "that isn't compelling". Cool, great discussion. What's your goal? You really don't seem to be open to a reasonable discussion anymore.

I'm absolutely open to it. If you're trying to sell me on why Jones is going to work here with the Giants, I'm all ears. No one's been able to make a good argument for it, though.

A great year statistically? Making the playoffs? Winning a Super Bowl?

with Go Terps stance on DJ. There's a very sound, reasonable argument for the conclusion being made there.

It's totally fine with me to agree to disagree.

At this point, it wouldn't surprise me if Terps were right...which I'm ok with even if it makes me wrong.

I've criticized Jones plenty but looking forward I see a lot of things that can change his level of play. And if that isn't a good enough reason than what's the point of even arguing?

In comment 15279817 Angel Eyes said:

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A great year statistically? Making the playoffs? Winning a Super Bowl?

I think it's Britt that said something like "you know it when you see it", and I think he's right. Jones could play great and the team could still go 7-10, or he could be poor and they could go 11-6.

To me also just as much about timeline and resource allocation...does Jones seem like he's going to be worth paying a 5th year option, let alone a new contract? That would require a quantum leap forward that I'm very confident he's incapable of. Even his fans on this board are already lowering expectations ("he doesn't need to be great", etc.).

He'll be better in '21 because it's impossible to get worse, but if we don't think he can be great we should move on. Paying him even the 5th year option world be an error unless he makes a jump to a level he hasn't shown since...ever.

In comment 15279833 UConn4523 said:

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I've criticized Jones plenty but looking forward I see a lot of things that can change his level of play. And if that isn't a good enough reason than what's the point of even arguing?

There isn't.

At this point, everybody has solidified their opinion, and it basically falls into two camps. Jones can't do it, and Jones is still a work in progress. Both have points that solidify their stance.

The good news is we should have a much clearer picture of what's what in about 6 months.

In comment 15279811 Scooter185 said:

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In comment 15279803 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 15279796 UConn4523 said: Quote: its settled then! The reasons started around here for why he'll get better all seem to revolve around hoping something happens that's never happened with him in college or the pros. They sound more like "We want him to be good because we're fans... anything is possible!" Would we be making those same arguments for him objectively if he played for the Cowboys or Eagles? I think we'd all be saying he sucks. It's possible NYG team doctors develop superseureum and administer it to Jones making him Captain New York. We don't have all the information so it's impossible to rule that out

So they told you about that too, huh? I thought it was just me...

In comment 15279833 UConn4523 said:

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I've criticized Jones plenty but looking forward I see a lot of things that can change his level of play. And if that isn't a good enough reason than what's the point of even arguing?

What things? I'm honestly asking, because to this point the arguments in his favor all seem to revolve around blaming his supporting cast.

In comment 15279833 UConn4523 said:

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I've criticized Jones plenty but looking forward I see a lot of things that can change his level of play. And if that isn't a good enough reason than what's the point of even arguing?

You can "see a lot of things that can change his level of play" is certainly an arguable stance, but Terps defense of "he is what he is" seems like a reasonable counterargument.

Can't hate him for that. Not sure why so many here seem to get on him for it.

In comment 15279834 Go Terps said:

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In comment 15279817 Angel Eyes said: Quote: A great year statistically? Making the playoffs? Winning a Super Bowl? I think it's Britt that said something like "you know it when you see it", and I think he's right. Jones could play great and the team could still go 7-10, or he could be poor and they could go 11-6. To me also just as much about timeline and resource allocation...does Jones seem like he's going to be worth paying a 5th year option, let alone a new contract? That would require a quantum leap forward that I'm very confident he's incapable of. Even his fans on this board are already lowering expectations ("he doesn't need to be great", etc.). He'll be better in '21 because it's impossible to get worse, but if we don't think he can be great we should move on. Paying him even the 5th year option world be an error unless he makes a jump to a level he hasn't shown since...ever.

To your second point about resource allocation, the Giants have set themselves up nicely with two first round picks, two 3rd round picks, and two fourth round picks already in next year's draft.

They have set themselves up nicely for a future where Jones isn't the guy. So this all just needs to play itself out and we need to give it time to do so.

100%.

That was the underlying smart play that many missed in the draft day trade.

In comment 15279815 Go Terps said:

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In comment 15279812 UConn4523 said: Quote: it doesn't change anything. You are beyond obsessed at this point with making sure everyone knows that their opinions aren't rooted in any sort of fact, apparently. And since it isn't, you're go to is "that isn't compelling". Cool, great discussion. What's your goal? You really don't seem to be open to a reasonable discussion anymore. I'm absolutely open to it. If you're trying to sell me on why Jones is going to work here with the Giants, I'm all ears. No one's been able to make a good argument for it, though.

There are clearly arguments to be made for and against him getting better, and agree that many here supply some that aren't all that good. I just go with the simple approach that we have seen some good with DJ and many young NFL players get better. That's enough for me based on where he is in his career and realizing the NYG are not sufficiently built to win anything meaningful yet anyway.

And lets call a spade a spade GT, you don't need to be sold because its pretty clear you aren't buying...

but in sum, i responded to the link you provided showing his awful awareness. In my reply i provided 4 things that I saw and I didn't even include the WR's being blanketed (his 1st 2 for sure, couldn't tell on the 3rd read). 1 of my points was that Jones should have ran earlier up the middle, IMO so I 100% put some blame on him, just not all. You didn't even respond to this.

Like I said, you don't seem to want to have a discussion despite saying you are all ears. You can't say that isn't compelling and turn around and post the same "well he's never done it at Duke so why now?".

I posted that clip in response to Britt saying Jones is a pocket quarterback. Jones's pocket awareness has been perhaps he biggest flaw. I can't understand anyone thinking he's a pocket quarterback when he's been anything but.

That particular play is one example of him being bad in the pocket. Another off the top of my head is the Mack strip sack in Chicago in 2019. Everyone killed Solder for that, but Jones was 9 yards behind the LOS when he got hit. There have to be a couple dozen other examples in his 26 starts.

You asked my goal... My goal would be for all of us to leave our fandom at the door and talk about all these guys as we would if they were on another team. I don't have any interest in hearing about what we hope is possible based on little or no evidence.

There's plenty of video and data out there on Jones - my goal would be to talk about that objectively.

In comment 15279837 Britt in VA said:

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At this point, everybody has solidified their opinion, and it basically falls into two camps. Jones can't do it, and Jones is still a work in progress. Both have points that solidify their stance.

That's how you view this? Interesting.

I see the camps more along these lines:

Those that have seen enough to be mostly convinced that Jones is the solution.

And those who still need to so much more to be convinced Jones is the solution.

I've been talking mainly about Jones' build and skillset.

He is 6'5, 220 lbs. That's a pretty prototypical build for a pocket passer.

He reads defenses attempts to go through his progressions. Unless it is a designed play, he is looking for the pass first, and not running until the play breaks down. These are the characteristics of a "pocket QB" to me.

His legs are the bonus, but he looks to pass first.

In comment 15279879 bw in dc said:

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In comment 15279837 Britt in VA said: Quote: At this point, everybody has solidified their opinion, and it basically falls into two camps. Jones can't do it, and Jones is still a work in progress. Both have points that solidify their stance. That's how you view this? Interesting. I see the camps more along these lines: Those that have seen enough to be mostly convinced that Jones is the solution. And those who still need to so much more to be convinced Jones is the solution.

Who has declared Jones as the guy already? That nothing else needs to be seen?

In comment 15279874 Go Terps said:

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I posted that clip in response to Britt saying Jones is a pocket quarterback. Jones's pocket awareness has been perhaps he biggest flaw. I can't understand anyone thinking he's a pocket quarterback when he's been anything but. That particular play is one example of him being bad in the pocket. Another off the top of my head is the Mack strip sack in Chicago in 2019. Everyone killed Solder for that, but Jones was 9 yards behind the LOS when he got hit. There have to be a couple dozen other examples in his 26 starts. You asked my goal... My goal would be for all of us to leave our fandom at the door and talk about all these guys as we would if they were on another team. I don't have any interest in hearing about what we hope is possible based on little or no evidence. There's plenty of video and data out there on Jones - my goal would be to talk about that objectively.

I don't think you are though. You seem unwilling to consider secondary and tertiary factors because you want our QB to be good enough for them not to matter. Well we don't have an upper tier QB and here we are, left thinking of ways to HELP him (whether you think he should need it or not).

You still didn't acknowledge what I posted, by the way. And it was a completely objective response where I saw 4 players (atleast) not contributing enough on the play. If that was a Jalen Hurts clip I'd say the same damn thing.

I would have to be considered one of Jones' biggest "fanboys" on this site by you, and others... Correct?

So if even I have said repeatedly all offseason that he needs to step up and prove it THIS third year now that he's had people put around him, that he's the guy... Well... If I'm his biggest fanboy and even I'm saying he needs to prove it, then who are these people that have made up their minds that he's already anointed as "the guy"?

In comment 15279890 Britt in VA said:

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I would have to be considered one of Jones' biggest "fanboys" on this site by you, and others... Correct? So if even I have said repeatedly all offseason that he needs to step up and prove it THIS third year now that he's had people put around him, that he's the guy... Well... If I'm his biggest fanboy and even I'm saying he needs to prove it, then who are these people that have made up their minds that he's already anointed as "the guy"?

I said "mostly" convinced for that camp. Because their is a cacophony of voices (Zeke, for example) who seam to think Jones actually finished pretty well last year and is now ready to take flight with the new additions.

You certainly seem more bullish on Jones based on his body of work thus far. In contrast, I think there is legit regression form '19 to '20. So I put more weight on that and feel much more skeptical heading into '21.

(At the same time, I don't feel great about the OL and how that could impact Jones's performance. But that's a different topic...)

with thus far, and believing that so called "better" QB's would also struggle with that.