20-21 WR skill player discussion/realism

Could be a solid signing depending on what he has left.
If he gets six or so red zone TDs it great.

I hope he can block, can any of out tight ends block?

In stressing out about this in june? Don’t seem like an optimist at all in my book.

I agree - I see league average weapons with some upside depending on how good Toney is day one and whether Slayton gets back to his rookie form. I don't see great weapons.

Who is stressing? Opening a discussion

In comment 15278665 BrettNYG10 said:

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I agree - I see league average weapons with some upside depending on how good Toney is day one and whether Slayton gets back to his rookie form. I don't see great weapons.

League average weapons...Lord what do you see as above average? Team full of Tyreek Hills?

In comment 15278673 section125 said:

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In comment 15278665 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: I agree - I see league average weapons with some upside depending on how good Toney is day one and whether Slayton gets back to his rookie form. I don't see great weapons. League average weapons...Lord what do you see as above average? Team full of Tyreek Hills?

Chiefs, Packers, Bills, Seattle, Arizona, Tampa are a handful of teams meaningfully better than the Giants right now in terms of skill positions.

Golladay is a #1 but he's not a top five receiver (maybe not even top ten?). One of Shepard/Slayton is probably a #2 but it's not definite given Shepard's injury history. Toney is a rookie. Engram is probably above-average but he's still average. I have Barkley as a question mark. This isn't the 2011 Giants WR group.

Could Barkley return to rookie form and Toney put together a ROY type season? Sure. There's upside for more. But I think the Giants are meaningfully below the teams I listed.

Including Slayton, they ranked 31st in the league.

Golladay isn’t a separator, but that’s not his game, he’s a power forward/rebounder and among the nfl elite in that regard.

Regarding Slayton, I think not having to operate as THE X, and the main deep threat should absolutely help him, Shep and Slayton are more complimentary players and there’s nothing wrong with that, but with Barkley out there wasn’t anything to compliment.

Regarding Barkley I think the Giants upgrades in the passing game help take some of the pressure off Barkley so he doesn’t have to depended on as heavily. Also, a guy like Toney even though he’s a WR, can help alleviate some of the load on Barkley because he can be used in so many ways and has some similarities to Barkley in terms of forcing missed tackles and getting yards in chunks.

In comment 15278691 BrettNYG10 said:

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Golladay is a #1 but he's not a top five receiver (maybe not even top ten?). One of Shepard/Slayton is probably a #2 but it's not definite given Shepard's injury history. Toney is a rookie. Engram is probably above-average but he's still average. I have Barkley as a question mark. This isn't the 2011 Giants WR group. Could Barkley return to rookie form and Toney put together a ROY type season? Sure. There's upside for more. But I think the Giants are meaningfully below the teams I listed.

Brett -- I am never one to really guess outcomes -- but you either believe in the team architects or not. And you either believe their thesis is valid or not.

- Top 10 pick QB
- Top 2 pick RB
- 1st round LT, 5th RG, UDFA C, 2nd round guard, 3rd round RT
- 1st round TE
- Top 10 paid UFA WR, 1st WR, 2nd WR/5th WR

I think you have to believe this base offense can produce in the top 3rd of the league, or these guy(s) have to go.

Golladay was not only the best FA WR he may have been the best FA available of any kind. He’s a game changer and transforms our WR corps into a very good unit all by himself much less his affect on Slayton and Shepard. And Rudolf similarly gives us a weapon in the short/intermediate game we haven’t had in forever but is a top red zone target as well. This is just the best group talent wise than we’ve had since the Nicks/Cruz era

The weapons has a trickle affect

Shepard is not an outside WR, but is a decent slot and Toney might be an upgrade....at least more explosive.

Slayton is not a #1....neither is Ross or Pettis....but all could be a 2nd outside WR.

Golladay has been sold as a #1 WR. He will need to deliver as one....or they over paid big time.

Engram drops were brutal...and must be mental... physically...those specific drops that lead to the INTs are mindbogglingly....If continued, he will not see the field.

In comment 15278713 christian said:

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In comment 15278691 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: Golladay is a #1 but he's not a top five receiver (maybe not even top ten?). One of Shepard/Slayton is probably a #2 but it's not definite given Shepard's injury history. Toney is a rookie. Engram is probably above-average but he's still average. I have Barkley as a question mark. This isn't the 2011 Giants WR group. Could Barkley return to rookie form and Toney put together a ROY type season? Sure. There's upside for more. But I think the Giants are meaningfully below the teams I listed. Brett -- I am never one to really guess outcomes -- but you either believe in the team architects or not. And you either believe their thesis is valid or not. - Top 10 pick QB - Top 2 pick RB - 1st round LT, 5th RG, UDFA C, 2nd round guard, 3rd round RT - 1st round TE - Top 10 paid UFA WR, 1st WR, 2nd WR/5th WR I think you have to believe this base offense can produce in the top 3rd of the league, or these guy(s) have to go.

Christian, I advocated for DG's firing the past two off-seasons - I am not a big believer we are set up for a period of playoff contention and potential championships. I do desperately want to be wrong. I think the framework is in place to do a good job of analyzing Jones this year. And I see upside and possible playoff contention if Jones and Thomas turn into the players Gettleman drafted them to be.

SB coming back and making the assumption healthy is a top player at the position

Shep is very good player in the slot. He is an avg player on the outside

KG is a legit 1

Engram, despite his drops is top level TE threat - reality however is his drops cause TO and he will be on the bench if continuing despite mismatches he creates

The you have Toney

Slayton and Rudolph can both play

There is plenty of talent and speed .... however, it still will come down to the QB and the OL. There are options to threaten defenses Right now in June it looks good

And in the past it seemed the feeling was mutual with regards to PFFs evaluation of Giants roster, but they did release their receiver group rankings today(which included WRs and TEs, but not backs), they ranked the Giants group 11th and mentioned they had the potential to be a top 5 group. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Rudolph is also a good blocker. The fact that they are not just blocking dummies and can actually catch the ball helps Barkley as well, which in turn helps WR's. It all plays off each other. Lets just hope for an injury free season, lots of players on that list have had issues.

And it all goes to waste if you have Mike Glennon throwing them the ball.

In comment 15278746 BrettNYG10 said:

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Christian, I advocated for DG's firing the past two off-seasons - I am not a big believer we are set up for a period of playoff contention and potential championships. I do desperately want to be wrong. I think the framework is in place to do a good job of analyzing Jones this year. And I see upside and possible playoff contention if Jones and Thomas turn into the players Gettleman drafted them to be.

I see it much the same way RE: Jones.

When I look at the assets invested in the offense, it’s pretty reasonable to expect better than middle of the pack.

In my view it’s more than a framework. If this group doesn’t work, you’ve got to start subtracting big pieces to figure out the problem.

This crew can dominate with some luck in the health department and opening the playbook some.

Talent wise they are in great shape.

op·ti·mis·tic
/ˌäptəˈmistik/

adjective
hopeful and confident about the future.

In comment 15278893 christian said:

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In comment 15278746 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: Christian, I advocated for DG's firing the past two off-seasons - I am not a big believer we are set up for a period of playoff contention and potential championships. I do desperately want to be wrong. I think the framework is in place to do a good job of analyzing Jones this year. And I see upside and possible playoff contention if Jones and Thomas turn into the players Gettleman drafted them to be. I see it much the same way RE: Jones. When I look at the assets invested in the offense, it’s pretty reasonable to expect better than middle of the pack. In my view it’s more than a framework. If this group doesn’t work, you’ve got to start subtracting big pieces to figure out the problem.

I agree. I have a couple of issues that already worry me: 1. I'm unsure whether an RB can be the leading weapon on a top third offense. I don't want to relitigate the pick, and would add I absolutely think RB's can turbocharge offenses. But I don't have confidence Barkley as our best weapon gets us to where the offense needs to be. 2. I am worried about the ROI on the OL. It needs to be good not average. We need Pro Bowls from Thomas, not a solid starter.

Thats my point.

That I would feel not that strong about these group of players EVEN THOUGH usually I am glass half full.

I am hopeful I am wrong believe me

Love that the bar for Rudolph is 6 red zone tds. News flash, 6 rec tds would give him 2x as many as our leading receiver last year. And he's a fuckin castoff. You guys need to temper your expectations just a touch.

My preference is Barkley settle into the role of running back, and not weapon. I think he’s better suited running the ball.

I hope the number of touches in the pass game go Golladay, Toney, Slayton, Shepard, Engram, Rudolph, Barkley.

Golladay and Rudolph are red zone weapons. And in the deep if someone gets hurt category Benjamen was good at it as well.

Ross gives them speed they don't have. He is the fastest player on either side line for most teams. How they use him is something different.

Barkley, Jones (with his legs) and Toney can get big junks of yards.

Let's see how it comes together. On Paper it is a huge upgrade. Additionally different than last season the WR room has more diversity in different types of players. Speed, Size, Elusiveness all added to the room.

The Giants last year were extremely vanilla on Offense. Let's see if they can be more fun/aggressive/multiple/chocolate chip cookie dough this season or not.

he was doubled and playing hurt last year

Defenses really had no one that they had to account for. As the poster above mentioned, offense is a team game.

Gilbride talked about how Plax opened things by having defenses account for him. This helped the running game and opened opportunities for the other targets.

I am hoping that the added weapons will force defenses to adjust accordingly. The biggest benefit will be that it helps to simplify things for Jones which will make him more decisive in knowing where to go with the ball based on defenses having to commit resources to cover a strength.

The challenge is taking advantage of that to create the matchups you want so a lot of this will fall on Garrett to maximize. Because the group is broad in talent but not necessarily top heavy, it will also fall onto Jones to make the most of it. We've seen plenty of times where adding weapons doesn't help average QBs as much as you would think because the ball ends up going to one guy instead of the other and they end up canceling each other out with no real net gains. But if Jones can make quick reads, progressions, and get the ball to the right guy, this group could really challenge defenses. That remains to be seen.

But what they're banking on is the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. They're banking on each player making the most of whatever opportunities come their way, however frequent or infrequent they may be, or how insignificant they may appear to be at the time.

Without question, more is expected from a handful of players, especially Jones, Barkley, Golladay, and Thomas, but just because less is expected from others doesn't dismiss the importance of their contributions. A single catch by a lesser WR, TE, or RB may not look like much on a stat sheet, but if that catch leads to a 1st down that keeps a critical drive alive, or results in a red zone TD instead of a field-goal attempt, its importance goes way beyond the stat sheet.

The Giants should not be defined by comparing a player or group of players to others in the league. They'll be defined by how well (or how poorly) they play as a team. I think that "team concept" is something that Joe Judge has been emphasizing from day one.

Not that he won't be good, but that we don't really have any backups with his skillset should he go down.

Agreed. And this is very distinct from say the way the Cowboys are constructed. They're a collection of talent opposed to NYG which is much more purposefully built. IMO, that's why Dallas is routinely overrated and under performs. The Pats were rarely the most talented team player for player, but taken as a whole they were just better than anyone else. That's what Judge is attempting to build here, just remains to be seen if he's able to pull it off.

Agreed. And this is very distinct from say the way the Cowboys are constructed. They're a collection of talent opposed to NYG which is much more purposefully built. IMO, that's why Dallas is routinely overrated and under performs. The Pats were rarely the most talented team player for player, but taken as a whole they were just better than anyone else. That's what Judge is attempting to build here, just remains to be seen if he's able to pull it off.

your skepticism mp.

If Golladay misses any time and Rudolph & Barkley are slow to return, this offense hasnt improved at the skill positions much.

this is where missing on D.Smith potentially hurts. If the Giants had Smith or Waddle in the holster should KG be unavailable, they keep trucking. I dont see Toney as that kind of WR.

for the Patriots has been the consistency of their OL. They were consistently able to run the ball.

We have a lot of stats oriented posters. I would like to see some stat that shows how much better offenses (and QB's are) who are in 2nd and 4-6 versus 2nd and 9-11 and 3rd and 2-5 versus 3rd and 9-15. I think the teams that have the more favorable scenarios are superior offensively.

I'm reminded of the 2007 Cowboys. Thirteen Pro Bowlers, five All-Pros. 2007 Giants? One Pro Bowler, Osi. Unfortunately, he couldn't make the game because he was playing in the Super Bowl. I trust all of those Cowboys enjoyed their trip to Hawaii.

In comment 15279096 Klaatu said:

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I'm reminded of the 2007 Cowboys. Thirteen Pro Bowlers, five All-Pros. 2007 Giants? One Pro Bowler, Osi. Unfortunately, he couldn't make the game because he was playing in the Super Bowl. I trust all of those Cowboys enjoyed their trip to Hawaii.

That Dallas 2007 team was a very talented one. Perhaps the most talent in the league that year. The Giants also were more talented than the Pro Bowls representation showed.

I am thankful that it was Wade and not a prime Parcells leading them. One thing I questioned was Parcells leaving. I suspected that while he liked Romo he might have felt he would always come out a little short with him.

other than to say expect far more than what was produced on the field last year. Last year was painful to watch as we all clearly saw the lack of talented playmakers and other players that simply struggled with drops, injuries and age. The front office miscalculated the low talent level in these units in 2020 and really hung their young QB out to dry a good bit with no new investment.

So now in 2021 this became the rallying cry..."Find Playmakers To Help Jones!". And in they came...playmakers of all types, shapes and sizes - Golladay, Rudolph, Toney, and Ross. To that the regime expects bounceback /improvement seasons from Engram, Slayton and an all-around RB in Barkley.

Clearly this group should have sufficient talent to beat opponents 1-on-1, to spread Defenses out enough so that Jones can play pitch & catch more often, and to take advantage of uncovered or forgotten guys in the zones.

Sounds good...looks good on paper...but will it actually happen?

In comment 15278665 BrettNYG10 said:

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I agree - I see league average weapons with some upside depending on how good Toney is day one and whether Slayton gets back to his rookie form. I don't see great weapons.

Golladay led the entire freaking league in TDs (11) in 2019, was 3rd in yds/rec (18.3) and 7th in yards (1190). That's average? He's a true #1, who has a better resume than Plaxico had when we signed him.

We don't know how good a healthy Slayton can be w/ someone like Golladay on the other side.

If healthy (I know big if), SB can be one of top RBs in league.

Rudolph may be past his prime, but I don't think speed was ever his thing. He's dropped ONE pass in the last 3 years.

Golladay, by drawing so much attention, is going to have a positive impact on everyone, just like Plax did. Toney will also (eventually) draw a lot of attention.

We were far below average last year, but I see much better than average in '21.

But we have considerably more talent than we've had in a long time. There are 2 real questions here:

1) How will everyone be used?
2) Is the line going to protect Jones enough to execute?

I look at how Garret called his offense last year and the only guys I can see doing well with it are Golladay, Shep and Rudolph. Obviously we need more than 3 guys to produce....

Hopefully we can bring in more motion and creative formations to get guys like Toney, Ross and Pettis more space to use their speed. Even Slayton can benefit from being moved around and isolated on a smaller, slower CB while Golladay occupies the safety.

I'm going to refrain from any comments on Barkley because I don't know his health status, but obviously having him back in the lineup is a huge boost.

In comment 15279082 Angel Eyes said:

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Not that he won't be good, but that we don't really have any backups with his skillset should he go down.

How many teams have a backup #1 WR?

At least with this years roster, we have other weapons (Toney, et al) and red zone targets (Rudolph, possibly Benjamin) if KG does miss time.

In comment 15279116 Biteymax22 said:

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But we have considerably more talent than we've had in a long time. There are 2 real questions here: 1) How will everyone be used? 2) Is the line going to protect Jones enough to execute? I look at how Garret called his offense last year and the only guys I can see doing well with it are Golladay, Shep and Rudolph. Obviously we need more than 3 guys to produce.... Hopefully we can bring in more motion and creative formations to get guys like Toney, Ross and Pettis more space to use their speed. Even Slayton can benefit from being moved around and isolated on a smaller, slower CB while Golladay occupies the safety. I'm going to refrain from any comments on Barkley because I don't know his health status, but obviously having him back in the lineup is a huge boost.

I don't think using last year as a barometer of how Garrett will call games makes much sense. The lack of talent completely dictated how they approached the games. I'm not a huge JG fan but I don't think he's a moron, the playbook opened up the second we signed Golladay, and opened up even more drafting Toney. Add in Rudolph's versatility and its unchartered territory for this staff, many many possibilities.

In comment 15279082 Angel Eyes said:

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Not that he won't be good, but that we don't really have any backups with his skillset should he go down.

You can't expect the Giants to have a Golladay clone sitting on the bench just in case he goes down. You have to hope they'll be able to compensate for his loss by adjusting their offense to fit the skillsets of the players they still have, but, honestly, I doubt there are very many teams that can overcome the loss of their #1 WR (see the 2008 Giants, for example).

Sills and Core and they both had season ending injuries.

This year Sills is back , Golladay and Benajmin lurking on the deep bench.

Who on the Cardinals scares you outside of Hopkins? You mention how average the Giants receivers are, but can you, without looking, remember who their starting RB, TE, and WR2/3 will be? You put them in an elite class, and I don't see it. Their DVOA last year was 19th. Their defense was 10th. I feel like people severely overrate their offense because they have these high expectations on Murray and Hopkins.

In comment 15279096 Klaatu said:

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I'm reminded of the 2007 Cowboys. Thirteen Pro Bowlers, five All-Pros. 2007 Giants? One Pro Bowler, Osi. Unfortunately, he couldn't make the game because he was playing in the Super Bowl. I trust all of those Cowboys enjoyed their trip to Hawaii.

LOL, exactly.

Golladay is a true #1. Slayton showed, even as a rookie, that he could be effective if he isn’t the focus of the defense. Shepard is a good player who can be effective inside and outside. Shepard/ Slayton are certainly a “better than average” 2/3 combination. Rudolph is a legit two way TE. He’s the most talented TE we’ve had since ...I really can’t remember. Even Engram, who I really don’t like, is a very talented as a 3rd, 4th, 5th option. And we haven’t touched on Toney yet. Hard to know what else folks would want.

the Giants do not have a #1 receiver. We barely have an effective #2 receiver (Slayton).

KT should help.

Julio Jones would REALLY help.

In comment 15279199 Adam G in Big D said:

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the Giants do not have a #1 receiver. We barely have an effective #2 receiver (Slayton). KT should help. Julio Jones would REALLY help.

If McLaurin goes down, who is #1 in DC? Same for New Orleans with Michael Thomas. Very few teams are capable of losing their #1 and moving on capably. Bengals have a greattrip, so do the Bucs and Cowboys, but it's a luxury. Have to spend resources wisely.

In comment 15279199 Adam G in Big D said:

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the Giants do not have a #1 receiver. We barely have an effective #2 receiver (Slayton). KT should help. Julio Jones would REALLY help.

Help do what? Jones costs $15M this season plus the future draft picks to go sign the 32-year old WR who is reported to be in demand by multiple teams.

This is the winning move the NYGs are missing in 2021?

In comment 15279125 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 15279116 Biteymax22 said: Quote: But we have considerably more talent than we've had in a long time. There are 2 real questions here: 1) How will everyone be used? 2) Is the line going to protect Jones enough to execute? I look at how Garret called his offense last year and the only guys I can see doing well with it are Golladay, Shep and Rudolph. Obviously we need more than 3 guys to produce.... Hopefully we can bring in more motion and creative formations to get guys like Toney, Ross and Pettis more space to use their speed. Even Slayton can benefit from being moved around and isolated on a smaller, slower CB while Golladay occupies the safety. I'm going to refrain from any comments on Barkley because I don't know his health status, but obviously having him back in the lineup is a huge boost. I don't think using last year as a barometer of how Garrett will call games makes much sense. The lack of talent completely dictated how they approached the games. I'm not a huge JG fan but I don't think he's a moron, the playbook opened up the second we signed Golladay, and opened up even more drafting Toney. Add in Rudolph's versatility and its unchartered territory for this staff, many many possibilities.

I'm hoping that's the case but need to see it. Specifically since we've added a couple of creative coaches from the college ranks. Hopefully, we have a completely different looking offense this year.

In comment 15279153 Toth029 said:

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Who on the Cardinals scares you outside of Hopkins? You mention how average the Giants receivers are, but can you, without looking, remember who their starting RB, TE, and WR2/3 will be? You put them in an elite class, and I don't see it. Their DVOA last year was 19th. Their defense was 10th. I feel like people severely overrate their offense because they have these high expectations on Murray and Hopkins.

Hopkins scares me significantly more than Golladay. Pretty sure Kirk is their #2 WR, I thought #3 was up in the air because they signed Green. I think they lost their starting RB in UFA. Don't know the TE.

Do you think anyone outside of NYG fans remembers the Giants guys outside of Barkley and Golladay? Maybe it's closer than I originally thought but I don't think the Giants are close to the other teams I mentioned.

I will agree Hopkins is better than Golladay but Kenny is still extremely beneficial to Danny and the other receivers. 6'4 guy who is possibly the best contested catch WR you'll find. And if we saw last year first hand, contested catches are common.

Kirk is still there but he's more of a Shepard receiver for them. Solid, but will he scare any defenses? Andy Isabella is currently their slot guy.

Rondale Moore and Toney both guys who will be involved. May replace Isabella.

AJ Green is washed. He's their 2020 Golden Tate.

Starting TE is Maxx Williams who can block. Running backs are Chase Edmonds and James Conner.

Just saying, it's great to have Hopkins, but this isn't an elite group. I would say Green Bay is better primarily due to Aaron Jones. I feel like lots of fans overrate Murray and that Cards' offense. Maybe they will take that next step this year, because in 2020 they underachieved.

Toth, I agree that Golladay is a great get for Jones. I think he fits really well with Jones' strengths.

I would still take the Cards over the Giants group due to Hopkins but you raise good points - it's closer than I initially thought. Maybe I'd be more optimistic on the Giants if I had conviction Barkley would bounce back immediately.

Golladay is a bona fide #1. At least one of Shepard/Slayton will be good enough for #2. Engram is a plus player despite his warts. I like this group. If Toney is great I think it can get into the 'elite' range. I'm just not sold yet.

being productive this year. That Injury is very hard to overcome and I am not confident he can get back to those dime cuts he once did.

For that 2007 Pro Bowl memory. Hoards of Dallas Cowboys helmets, and ONE NY helmet.

I believe that Pro Bowl was held close to when the NY Giants Super Bowl celebratory parade was being held.

which was obviously missed

last year the Giants were 4-10 points away from winning in six games; games where third down catches weren't being made, and goal line plays weren't being made;

You didn't really have more than one receiver out there at any time that was any kind of a threat.

Our toughest receiver was Shepard, and the OP is right he did not have a lot of stand out games. He was also playing out of position most of the season; running outside routes. He is normally a slot receiver

Now this year you hopefully will be having Golloday, Rudolph, Barkley and Shepard all out at the same time. You have to respect all four of these guys on a third down or goal line play. All four of them will create opportunities for Toney, Slayton, and even Engram. The point is you should have four(4) players out there that have to be accounted for, instead of maybe one (1), and all four of them are capable of making tough plays, and have different skill sets. There are 2 more tall players on the field that have expanded ranges in Golloday and Rudolph.

If these 4 guys can buy us 3-4 more third downs, and convert two more TDs when the Giants are in range of the goal line instead of settling for FGs, then this becomes a different team.

If you move this forward logically and having four guys out there who are all capable of making plays makes the offense more confident, then in that even it will become even more high octane. Guys like Engram will feed off of that, and if that happens (mind you it doesn't have to, but if it does) look out!!!