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The O-line will be better as Jones gets better ....

Manny in CA : 6/5/2021 12:01 am

As he learns, my hope is that Judge and the rest of the coaching staff teaches him why "pass protection is also the quarterback's job"

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2019/11/8/20954689/nfl-offensive-line-pass-protection-breakdown-mitchell-trubisky-bears
Interesting take and I agree a QB has to be smart  
SGMen : 6/5/2021 12:09 am : link
Eli was very good in this area.
I'm not sure I've ever heard anything bad about DJ with respect to his role in pass protections? I wouldn't know by watching either.

I think being in the 2nd year of the current system will help greatly along with a real training camp. This is a young offense outside of TE.
The lack of experience jumped out ....  
Manny in CA : 6/5/2021 1:08 am : link

In the Ravens' game; they just sent everybody and our offense just couldn't handle it.

The Old Master, Tom Brady is a symphony conductor with the Buc's offensive line. In just a few games, they went from ordinary to very efficient.

It's not fair to expect that from Jones, right-away, but with the right coaching and faith in him, I think he's smart enough to grow into a special QB.



As a big Jines fan  
Giantimistic : 6/5/2021 1:20 am : link
it was clear that Colt McCoy put the oline in a better position when he played even though he could not through past 10 yards.

Jones is smart and will progress in this area. My only, only concern about Jones is sometimes he does not have natural pocket awareness. That is the number one thing I will be looking for this year.
Excellent thoughts ....  
Manny in CA : 6/5/2021 1:41 am : link

About McCoy & what Jones needs to work on.

Some guys just naturally have great pocket awareness; Ben Rothlisberger is a great example. Even as a rookie, he knew how to slide around in the pocket, avoiding tackles and finding clear passing lanes.

Next to Brady, the best in recent times was Peyton Manning.

Out of the young guys, the "Brady Clone" - Justin Herbert is very good, already.



Manny - chicken or egg?  
short lease : 6/5/2021 2:09 am : link

.... and Jones will get better as the OL gets better.

There is a surprise ... an ex-offensive lineman blaming the QB? Wow - didn't see that coming.

I am not saying he doesn't have an valid points but, Jones could have a photographic memory and 10 years in the same system. If the Ol can't block for him he is on his back with no chance.


...  
broadbandz : 6/5/2021 2:49 am : link
If your oline loses their one-on-one which happened a lot the qb is a sitting duck.
Come on..  
montanagiant : 6/5/2021 3:01 am : link
This putz has spent years trying to argue he deserved his pay from the Giants as he did squat. He's a bitter has-been that never was.
Jones will get better as the OL gets better  
giantstock : 6/5/2021 3:22 am : link
The OL was terrible last year and they played in a God-Awful division. Jones won't stand a chance - neither will Barkley if the OL doesn't get better.

Some want to give the OL excuses. They have to be held accountable too. They also get paid to do a job. I think some forget that.
I don't think you can truly teach  
M.S. : 6/5/2021 6:03 am : link

The best you can do is train a QB to stay on schedule and get the ball out of his hands in "x" seconds.

Daniel Jones needs to learn that big time.

As for our third year QB shifting effortlessly in the pocket while keeping his eyes downfield, not sure he can be that sort of QB.

Hope I'm wrong.

In the meantime, would be nice for our young offensive line to take the next step up.

RE: I don't think you can truly teach  
M.S. : 6/5/2021 6:04 am : link
In comment 15280334 M.S. said:
Quote:

The best you can do is train a QB to stay on schedule and get the ball out of his hands in "x" seconds.

Daniel Jones needs to learn that big time.

As for our third year QB shifting effortlessly in the pocket while keeping his eyes downfield, not sure he can be that sort of QB.

Hope I'm wrong.

In the meantime, would be nice for our young offensive line to take the next step up.


I don't think you can truly teach "pocket presence"

Something is wrong with this site... it is dropping words out of the title line.
Of course Schwartz thinks that.  
Britt in VA : 6/5/2021 8:12 am : link
He probably blamed Manning for his shitty blocking.
The OL failed ELI.... but Jones Fails the OL?  
Rafflee : 6/5/2021 8:14 am : link
It's true that the Giants Lost alot of Pass Protection Pre Snap...a combination of the QB and the Offensive Line.

I haven't done a statistical analysis, but I believe that 50% of ALL NFL Sacks and "Blow Up Plays" are "Lacking Correct Assignment". It's the bigegst difference in today's game versus 25 years ago. The offensive lines are just not as well coordinated...player turnover , coach turnover........In the Giants' case, you hope that the QB/OL/RB recognition AT SNAP is alot better than last year.
One of the things that Jones got into a bad habit of doing  
Jimmy Googs : 6/5/2021 8:22 am : link
in his short career, is that he would get some edge pressure and was not ready to release the ball but he would drift back a few more steps as a natural reaction.

And in doing so Jones actually helped the edge rusher get a clearer path towards him as the Offensive Tackle's body position was now in a bad leverage position to stay between his opponent and Jones. The pass rusher now just disengages and heads unobstructed to DJ.

Pocket presence includes helping the OL out by stepping up, quicker releases and subtle movements by the QB within the pocket to help an OT re-establish his blocking position.

RE: One of the things that Jones got into a bad habit of doing  
Britt in VA : 6/5/2021 8:28 am : link
In comment 15280357 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
in his short career, is that he would get some edge pressure and was not ready to release the ball but he would drift back a few more steps as a natural reaction.

And in doing so Jones actually helped the edge rusher get a clearer path towards him as the Offensive Tackle's body position was now in a bad leverage position to stay between his opponent and Jones. The pass rusher now just disengages and heads unobstructed to DJ.

Pocket presence includes helping the OL out by stepping up, quicker releases and subtle movements by the QB within the pocket to help an OT re-establish his blocking position.


Agree with all of that.
Can’t take a guy who spells it Geoff  
UConn4523 : 6/5/2021 8:42 am : link
seriously
Schwartz is right  
cosmicj : 6/5/2021 10:26 am : link
.
He has to get rid of the ball  
jc in c-ville : 6/5/2021 10:32 am : link
2nd and 3, pocket collapses , throw that ball out of bounds. He better learn to avoid unnecessary sacks which leads itself to turnovers
RE: As a big Jines fan  
wonderback : 6/5/2021 10:33 am : link
In comment 15280312 Giantimistic said:
Quote:
it was clear that Colt McCoy put the oline in a better position when he played even though he could not through past 10 yards.

Jones is smart and will progress in this area. My only, only concern about Jones is sometimes he does not have natural pocket awareness. That is the number one thing I will be looking for this year.


In order to develop pocket awareness you need to have an actual pocket to become aware of.
RE: One of the things that Jones got into a bad habit of doing  
wonderback : 6/5/2021 10:38 am : link
In comment 15280357 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:


Pocket presence includes helping the OL out by stepping up, quicker releases and subtle movements by the QB within the pocket to help an OT re-establish his blocking position.


Hard to step up when Shane Lemieux misses his block and the opposing DT is about to take your head off!
RE: Schwartz is right  
Britt in VA : 6/5/2021 10:43 am : link
In comment 15280389 cosmicj said:
Quote:
.


In theory, yes. But that theory only holds water if the offensive line isn't outright whiffing their block, or getting pushed back into the QB's face.

So it's sort of rich coming from a guy who couldn't block for a QB who had what was considered great pocket presence as well as a superior knowledge in order to conduct protections at the LOS.
Tom Brady is a very good example of this line of thought.  
eclipz928 : 6/5/2021 11:14 am : link
In his 20+ year career he has remained one one of the least sacked QB's in the NFL. Logically, you can't assume that it's because he's always had a great OLine protecting him in every season he has played. Skill in throwing the ball clearly isn't the only important attribute when it comes to the effectiveness of a QB.
RE: RE: One of the things that Jones got into a bad habit of doing  
Jimmy Googs : 6/5/2021 11:18 am : link
In comment 15280393 wonderback said:
Quote:
In comment 15280357 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:




Pocket presence includes helping the OL out by stepping up, quicker releases and subtle movements by the QB within the pocket to help an OT re-establish his blocking position.




Hard to step up when Shane Lemieux misses his block and the opposing DT is about to take your head off!


Okay, but then ask the roster architects what they are doing at Guard if that is your point.

Lemieux is a 5th round rookie starting at Guard, the most experienced Guard in Zeitler was released, the Giants signed another struggling Guard in Fulton in free agency, and then they completely ignore the interior OL in the past draft.

Jones isn't the only one who needs to step up...

Great Question  
wonderback : 6/5/2021 11:31 am : link
Don’t know the answer. Some say they’re going to pick up another interior lineman in FA. Beats me. Who’s out there and for what price? I think they’re rolling the dice on what they have. Hope it doesn’t blow up in their faces!
RE: RE: RE: One of the things that Jones got into a bad habit of doing  
christian : 6/5/2021 11:43 am : link
In comment 15280403 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Okay, but then ask the roster architects what they are doing at Guard if that is your point.

Lemieux is a 5th round rookie starting at Guard, the most experienced Guard in Zeitler was released, the Giants signed another struggling Guard in Fulton in free agency, and then they completely ignore the interior OL in the past draft.


The offense completely hinges on Judge’s and Gettleman’s thesis that Peart, Lemieux, and Hernandez will all simultaneously develop into adequate, reliable starters.

Those odds feel low to me. I was very surprised the Giants didn’t acquire another high round player or high talent veteran.
Agreed  
wonderback : 6/5/2021 11:56 am : link
Now let’s hope we’re all wrong!
RE: I don't think you can truly teach [pocket presence]  
ColHowPepper : 6/5/2021 1:10 pm : link
In comment 15280334 M.S. said:
Quote:
The best you can do is train a QB to stay on schedule and get the ball out of his hands in "x" seconds.

Daniel Jones needs to learn that big time.

As for our third year QB shifting effortlessly in the pocket while keeping his eyes downfield, not sure he can be that sort of QB....
I hope that part of Jones' lack of pocket presence issue is that he's so focused on the patterns and where his receivers are that this blocks out awareness that you would want him to have. In 2020 this was exacerbated by the new scheme, new coaches, lack of camp, lack of exhibitions, lack of familiarity with routes. As a QB maybe by default he prioritized visualizing patterns and pass at the expense of immediate jeopardy in the pocket. Add to that a mediocre at best OL and it was not pretty. Maybe some of these factors at work begin to recede in year 2 of DJ and JG.
RE: Come on..  
TLong : 6/5/2021 2:09 pm : link
In comment 15280320 montanagiant said:
Quote:
This putz has spent years trying to argue he deserved his pay from the Giants as he did squat. He's a bitter has-been that never was.


Amen!
It's a team game ...  
Manny in CA : 6/5/2021 4:38 pm : link

In the heat of battle, the linemen need to trust that the QB knows what you're doing as well as what he's doing all the time.

The QB can't be putting himself in places where you can't help him. Failure, correction, work-arounds, reading keys, communication, , exposing weaknesses, all are part of the job.
So  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/5/2021 5:03 pm : link
why was the OL so bad during the last half of Eli's career.

You're reaching here.

An OL, TE, and backs can either block or they can't. When our OL's get easily beat on 1-to-1 match-ups (or Engram or Barkley), that's not on Daniel Jones.
...  
christian : 6/5/2021 5:24 pm : link
Brady is arguably the savviest pocket passer in the history of the game — at his age, with 100+ more attempts, with less average pocket time than Jones, was sacked 24 less times.

Aaron Rodgers with the same average pocket time, about 75 more attempts, sacked 25 less times.

These are guys who’ve mastered pocket awareness. It’s a skill.

You’ve got guys like Watson and Wilson who keep plays alive with their feet a lot and get sacked a bunch ultimately. I don’t the think Jones is like that. No doubt the Giants line sucks, but Jones isn’t doing himself many favors back there.
Good points by Schwartz...  
trueblueinpw : 6/5/2021 6:14 pm : link
I don’t think it’s talked about enough, but for a guy that’s suppose to be such a well coached and well prepared and hard working, hard studying guy, Jones doesn’t seem to make a lot of plays with his head or his football IQ. His pre snap reads, to the extent I can know, and his post snap decisions don’t seem to be particularly good and often seem to be bad. I think agree that one of the reasons Jones did better in Schurmurs offense was because he had one or two reads on only half the field. Maybe some of this is Jones learning a new offense, maybe some of it is that he isn’t that good at the mental aspect of the game.

The only point that Schwartz is trying to make here is that the QB has to make the right calls pre snap - and needs to avoid pressure when things break down.
RE: So  
montanagiant : 6/5/2021 7:00 pm : link
In comment 15280552 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
why was the OL so bad during the last half of Eli's career.

You're reaching here.

An OL, TE, and backs can either block or they can't. When our OL's get easily beat on 1-to-1 match-ups (or Engram or Barkley), that's not on Daniel Jones.

Exactly, This is classic Schwartz. While he may have a point in some regards all he has ever done is blame everyone else for his own shitty play.

I find it amazing that he is still bitter towards the
Giants for releasing him over his injuries. He got paid 6.2M to play 13 games for us and was not really anything but average if that in those games.
First and foremost  
Giants : 6/5/2021 7:29 pm : link
You have to have OL that can do its job before the QB can help raise them a notch. Once the OL not only knows their job and can actually do their job. Then with help from the QB they can reach the next level
I'm holding out judgment until the OL gels and shows improvement  
SGMen : 6/5/2021 9:15 pm : link
If the OL is opening up holes in the run game as I suspect it will, then the passing game should be more open as well. If we see Jones the first few games getting sacked because of his lack of pocket awareness rather than just outright pressure down his throat right off the snap than I will worry.

In Jones I trust until of course the real games begin when we can truly assess and see where he is.
Typical BBI, Shoot the Messenger, Take  
Jim in Tampa : 6/7/2021 11:55 am : link
A source (in this case an ex-player) says something that some posters don’t like, so they attack the source instead of his take.

For those going after Schwartz... Do you really disagree with his take that “pass protection is also the quarterback’s job”?

And did you even read the article and/or watch the video?

Schwartz is referencing ONE SPECIFIC PLAY and pointing out that a “slide right” blocking scheme was called. But once the defense came to the line with four pass rushers stacked on the left, the blocking scheme should have been changed.

He also pointed out that with a rookie center it falls on the QB (Trubisky) to adjust the blocking scheme at the line.

You can hate him if you want, but Schwartz is not wrong here and he also never even mentioned Jones or the Giants.
Thank you, Jim ...  
Manny in CA : 6/8/2021 1:27 am : link

Many here lead with their hearts, not their brains.
If Barkley average per carry decreases  
Carl in CT : 6/8/2021 2:52 pm : link
And Jones can’t throw the ball when his talent is either to run or throw the long ball, will some of you then realize it’s the OL? What did the Chiefs just do? They couldn’t block so they solved the problem. We sit there with our hand on our ass waiting for ham and eggers to get better rather than address the issue. Don’t give me we drafted a first rounder and 2nd rounder and a 3rd rounder on the OL. That’s not addressing if they suck then they need to be replaced. That’s addressing.
RE: Thank you, Jim ...  
montanagiant : 6/8/2021 3:31 pm : link
In comment 15282039 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

Many here lead with their hearts, not their brains.

I slammed him and said he has a point in some regards but the fact remains it all starts with the line. Also, how on earth does he know if Trobisky was supposed to make the adjustment? We had a rookie center also and he made calls
RE: If Barkley average per carry decreases  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/8/2021 4:09 pm : link
In comment 15282561 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
And Jones can’t throw the ball when his talent is either to run or throw the long ball, will some of you then realize it’s the OL? What did the Chiefs just do? They couldn’t block so they solved the problem. We sit there with our hand on our ass waiting for ham and eggers to get better rather than address the issue. Don’t give me we drafted a first rounder and 2nd rounder and a 3rd rounder on the OL. That’s not addressing if they suck then they need to be replaced. That’s addressing.


There is no way Barkley's average per carry is going to drop this year unless he doesn't come back from his ACL injury. This is the best run blocking line he's had in either college or the pros. Yeah the offensive line isn't great, but they certainly run block at the very least top half of the league.

IMO, the only way I see the offensive line sinking us is if one of the tackles get hurt and Solder just sucks, which is definitely not out of the realm of possibility. We don't have great guards, but they clearly feel strongly about the depth


The Chiefs went all in because their window is now. The contracts will catch up with them in a few years. Hopefully, our window starts next year. We almost certainly are drafting a guard in either the first or second round next year. The value will almost certainly meet need with 3 picks in the top 60. With JJ on helm, I trust him to move around to make it happen, either up or down. Didn't happen this year and people need to get over it. It's not like this team is making a SB run, but the pieces are certainly there to make the playoffs and get that valuable experience. They are very well positioned next year.
RE: RE: If Barkley average per carry decreases  
SGMen : 6/8/2021 9:44 pm : link
In comment 15282620 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15282561 Carl in CT said:


Quote:


And Jones can’t throw the ball when his talent is either to run or throw the long ball, will some of you then realize it’s the OL? What did the Chiefs just do? They couldn’t block so they solved the problem. We sit there with our hand on our ass waiting for ham and eggers to get better rather than address the issue. Don’t give me we drafted a first rounder and 2nd rounder and a 3rd rounder on the OL. That’s not addressing if they suck then they need to be replaced. That’s addressing.



There is no way Barkley's average per carry is going to drop this year unless he doesn't come back from his ACL injury. This is the best run blocking line he's had in either college or the pros. Yeah the offensive line isn't great, but they certainly run block at the very least top half of the league.

IMO, the only way I see the offensive line sinking us is if one of the tackles get hurt and Solder just sucks, which is definitely not out of the realm of possibility. We don't have great guards, but they clearly feel strongly about the depth


The Chiefs went all in because their window is now. The contracts will catch up with them in a few years. Hopefully, our window starts next year. We almost certainly are drafting a guard in either the first or second round next year. The value will almost certainly meet need with 3 picks in the top 60. With JJ on helm, I trust him to move around to make it happen, either up or down. Didn't happen this year and people need to get over it. It's not like this team is making a SB run, but the pieces are certainly there to make the playoffs and get that valuable experience. They are very well positioned next year.
I believe the Giants run blocking will be top 1/3 of the league. There is that kind of potential there especially on the edge and left side.
If the Giants can be "middle of the pack" in pass protection by mid-season we will win this division.

It goes without saying that we must stay healthy and develop our youth. If these young tackles are as good as I think they wiill be I expect a big year from our ground game and in turn Daniel Jones.
RE: RE: RE: If Barkley average per carry decreases  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/8/2021 10:07 pm : link
In comment 15282822 SGMen said:
Quote:
In comment 15282620 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


In comment 15282561 Carl in CT said:




I believe the Giants run blocking will be top 1/3 of the league. There is that kind of potential there especially on the edge and left side.
If the Giants can be "middle of the pack" in pass protection by mid-season we will win this division.

It goes without saying that we must stay healthy and develop our youth. If these young tackles are as good as I think they wiill be I expect a big year from our ground game and in turn Daniel Jones.


I agree, I think they have potential to be a monster run blocking unit. How many teams have a guy like Gates at Center? Nobody, and I love the thought process. How many teams have a left side run blocking unit like that? Nobody again.

The NFL is all about being contrarian, we are going to fuck up teams on the weakside. It's something we are going to build our entire offense on. Yeah if we go down 2 TDs we've already lost, but with this defense and the way we'll be able to run the ball, doubt that happens except against the elite. I totally understand the move moving Hernandez to the right. People will still probably bitch and moan and DJ when he gives up blind side pressure for a fumble, but it's a chess match.

I love JJ because just like Bill, he understands when everyone is going left, you go right, it's how you get deals on the cap. Thats how the Hawks won their SB, drafted and signed a bunch of oversized corners when the league was going small there. The cap is king.
RE: RE: RE: RE: If Barkley average per carry decreases  
SGMen : 6/8/2021 10:23 pm : link
In comment 15282833 Zeke's Alibi said:
[quote] In comment 15282822 SGMen said:


Quote:


In comment 15282620 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


In comment 15282561 Carl in CT said:




I believe the Giants run blocking will be top 1/3 of the league. There is that kind of potential there especially on the edge and left side.
If the Giants can be "middle of the pack" in pass protection by mid-season we will win this division.

It goes without saying that we must stay healthy and develop our youth. If these young tackles are as good as I think they wiill be I expect a big year from our ground game and in turn Daniel Jones.



I agree, I think they have potential to be a monster run blocking unit. How many teams have a guy like Gates at Center? Nobody, and I love the thought process. How many teams have a left side run blocking unit like that? Nobody again.

The NFL is all about being contrarian, we are going to fuck up teams on the weakside. It's something we are going to build our entire offense on. Yeah if we go down 2 TDs we've already lost, but with this defense and the way we'll be able to run the ball, doubt that happens except against the elite. I totally understand the move moving Hernandez to the right. People will still probably bitch and moan and DJ when he gives up blind side pressure for a fumble, but it's a chess match.

I love JJ because just like Bill, he understands when everyone is going left, you go right, it's how you get deals on the cap. Thats how the Hawks won their SB, drafted and signed a bunch of oversized corners when the league was going small there. The cap is king. [/quote It isa chess match, always, and we have some fine pieces that may surprise. But the key is our youth developing and exceling beyond expectations. I believe Thomas and Lemiuex will create big holes along with Gates. I think Peart will keep defenders at bay, Hernandez has a shot at holding his own and then some if he wants it bad enough in his contract year.

We need a TE like say K. Smith to surprise and get snaps and block very well.
RE: RE: RE: RE: If Barkley average per carry decreases  
chick310 : 6/9/2021 8:18 am : link
In comment 15282833 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15282822 SGMen said:


Quote:


In comment 15282620 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


In comment 15282561 Carl in CT said:




I believe the Giants run blocking will be top 1/3 of the league. There is that kind of potential there especially on the edge and left side.
If the Giants can be "middle of the pack" in pass protection by mid-season we will win this division.

It goes without saying that we must stay healthy and develop our youth. If these young tackles are as good as I think they wiill be I expect a big year from our ground game and in turn Daniel Jones.



I agree, I think they have potential to be a monster run blocking unit. How many teams have a guy like Gates at Center? Nobody, and I love the thought process. How many teams have a left side run blocking unit like that? Nobody again.


How many teams have a monster run blocking unit on the left side like Thomas, Lemieux and Gates?

There is optimism for these guys developing but this is stretching quite a bit.

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If Barkley average per carry decreases  
SGMen : 6/9/2021 8:50 pm : link
In comment 15282922 chick310 said:
Quote:
In comment 15282833 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


In comment 15282822 SGMen said:


Quote:


In comment 15282620 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


In comment 15282561 Carl in CT said:




I believe the Giants run blocking will be top 1/3 of the league. There is that kind of potential there especially on the edge and left side.
If the Giants can be "middle of the pack" in pass protection by mid-season we will win this division.

It goes without saying that we must stay healthy and develop our youth. If these young tackles are as good as I think they wiill be I expect a big year from our ground game and in turn Daniel Jones.



I agree, I think they have potential to be a monster run blocking unit. How many teams have a guy like Gates at Center? Nobody, and I love the thought process. How many teams have a left side run blocking unit like that? Nobody again.




How many teams have a monster run blocking unit on the left side like Thomas, Lemieux and Gates?

There is optimism for these guys developing but this is stretching quite a bit.
I do believe this OL and TE group will be a much better run blocking unit overall than what we've seen these last two years. How much better remains to be seen!
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