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Is our OL set OR do we need to upgrade OG?

SGMen : 6/5/2021 10:36 pm
Posted:
@art_stapleton
Entire Giants offensive line present for the second (and last) OTA open to the media. Same configuration as last week.

Thomas-Lemieux-Gates-Hernandez Peart

Second team OL
Slade-Wiggins-Harrison-Fulton-Solder

Experienced depth across the front a big change for NYG OL this early.

I still believe that we may sign a veteran OL if he is a clear upgrade. I'm not up on who is out there though really. But as a HC, lets say you know an OG upgrade is needed and you know we have two #1's next year why not possibly trade a #3 for an upgrade if possible? Or trade Hernandez and a #3 for a stud if available should a team want to say lower cap or something?

Having said that, I think we stand pat with what we have unless a player is clearly available and upgrades.
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They made draft investments in these guys last year  
UberAlias : 6/6/2021 8:33 am : link
They invested in coaching to teach these guys up this season. They’ve made it clear they are more comfortable with this group than the fans. Yes, they would have liked to upgrade in the draft but their targets didn’t make it to them. Is it perfect? No. But they have a young line that is developing together and learning to play as a unit. That’s a hell of a lot better situation than we’ve had for a while.
The Giants have to be able to develop talent  
gidiefor : Mod : 6/6/2021 8:48 am : link
or they will never be much good

In my opinion, this line is staffed with good talent right now, we have a good coaching staff which is focused on that line like a laser, I think you have to make hay with this -- there is a cost to bringing in talent iby giving up picks (or a pick) -- you want to harvest more talent out the next draft which is supposed to be loaded

I think  
YANKEE28 : 6/6/2021 9:00 am : link
simple math dictates another OL signing before training camp.

The current roster has 14 OLs. Since Slade is a G/T that has been used in OTAs as a T, then its likely that a G will be signed so that we have 6.

Having 15 OLs for training camp allows 3 full units along the line for practice.

I think it will happen, and the signing is more likely a younger unknown that the Giants feel has some potential (not to make the roster) to possibly make the practice squad.
Is there any OLine  
section125 : 6/6/2021 9:03 am : link
in the NFL that doesn't need to be upgraded? I am not for just getting a vet to get a vet. Let us see how camp goes and see who gets cut loose from other teams toward the end of camp to see if there are upgrades available.
I agree, it is time to start developing players from within. Most NFL lines are made up of what we call JAGs. Just average in the NFL is pretty good.
Yes, they do have to develop their own talent. No question.  
Jimmy Googs : 6/6/2021 9:08 am : link
But would be surprised if there is a Giant fan alive that doesn't have their fingers crossed regarding the OL this season...
RE: The Giants have to be able to develop talent  
Biteymax22 : 6/6/2021 9:18 am : link
In comment 15280810 gidiefor said:
Quote:
or they will never be much good

In my opinion, this line is staffed with good talent right now, we have a good coaching staff which is focused on that line like a laser, I think you have to make hay with this -- there is a cost to bringing in talent iby giving up picks (or a pick) -- you want to harvest more talent out the next draft which is supposed to be loaded


After our last couple of coaching staffs people tend to forget that developing players is an actual option…..

If Sale could put 2 guys from ULL in the NFL he can do something with the physical abilities our young guys have.
RE: I think  
SGMen : 6/6/2021 9:38 am : link
In comment 15280814 YANKEE28 said:
Quote:
simple math dictates another OL signing before training camp.

The current roster has 14 OLs. Since Slade is a G/T that has been used in OTAs as a T, then its likely that a G will be signed so that we have 6.

Having 15 OLs for training camp allows 3 full units along the line for practice.

I think it will happen, and the signing is more likely a younger unknown that the Giants feel has some potential (not to make the roster) to possibly make the practice squad.
checking out a younger unknown is always a good and cheap idea. Always.

However, I do wonder if a veteran of merit were to be released how motivated the Giants would be to spend and get him given the cap and current roster?

My fear with Lemiuex is pass protection. Its a legit fear. However, with a full training camp and the ability to review his tape from last year you hope he upgrades in that area enough to be "serviceable" (acceptable). I think both he and Thomas could provide us with a top run left option. Both guys are potential beasts run blocking wise.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Theme has been mentioned since start of free agency.  
robbieballs2003 : 6/6/2021 9:38 am : link
In comment 15280799 SGMen said:
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In comment 15280797 Jimmy Googs said:


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In comment 15280792 SGMen said:


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In comment 15280777 Jimmy Googs said:


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OP - who are the clear upgrades that are still available at Guard?


The top UFA guard is clearly Trai Turner but my guess is he'd cost a fortune though he is only 28 and has had a very healthy career. Signing him would elevate the OL greatly. But do you invest big money in an OG at this point or roll the dice? My thought is you stick with Hernandez who is cheap in comparison and upgrade via either UFA or the draft 1st round for OG.




The Athletic reported a month ago Turner was only seeking a deal in the $2-$3M range.

That isn't big money at all but, if accurate, tells you a little bit about what the NFL thinks of him since he hasn't signed with anyone.

Odd given his solid career? Perhaps he was hurt or has some undisclosed illness? On paper, Turner is an upgrade but what do I know outside of what I read?

Bottom line: can we upgrade OG right now outside of developing our own via this coaching staff? I'm leaning on we likely can't unless there is some kind of trade and those are very rare especially given the cap.

Thomas-Lemiuex-Gates-Hernandez-Peart - that is the starting line for opening day, barring injuries of course!


It's not odd at all. This has been discussed on here many times. His play has decreased each of the last 3 year and fell off a cliff last year. If you buy into what PFF is selling I think the only player that was worse than Turner last year was Lemieux. Turner is a name. If the price is right I am sure the Giants are looking into him but the Giants, imo, would only play him backup money to compete for a spot. He's not the player he once was.
This approach to OL  
Chocco : 6/6/2021 9:40 am : link
Makes me a little nervous. Probably because the last time they took this passive of an approach was 2017 and that failed miserably. I know that this group is deeper (better backups) and hopefully coached better, but still makes me nervous.
My take is they wanted to upgrade the OL but  
robbieballs2003 : 6/6/2021 9:49 am : link
Weren't going to lose value by reaching in the draft or overpaying in FA. Imo, they feel that Hernandez was really not right after getting covid and he'll get better. They like Lemieux even though he was brutal in pass protection. They supposedly like Murphy.

Imo, they are giving these guys a chance to fail. If they don't like what they see during camp then that is when a move will be made whether it be a FA or a trade. We need to remember that we are up against the cap right now so fitting a $2 mil player is now wise move. See where your team is at. If a move needs to be made then make it when you have a better understanding where your team needs to improve. If they spend money on Turner, he sucks, Lemieux and Hernandez are kicking ass, and you encounter injuries at another position then you are fucked.
OL Should Make You Nervous  
Samiam : 6/6/2021 9:51 am : link
If the OL does not play ok, let along good, it could undermine almost everything that was done this year to improve the offense. And while there are offensive coordinators who can work around a bad OL, Garrett doesn’t seem to be one of them. A positive is that Jones has athletic abilities with his legs that Eli did not have when his OL was the dregs.

In terms of the “love” for Sale, try to remember how positive the feeling was at around this time last year when Colombo was signed. It was even more love.
RE: This approach to OL  
SGMen : 6/6/2021 9:53 am : link
In comment 15280839 Chocco said:
Quote:
Makes me a little nervous. Probably because the last time they took this passive of an approach was 2017 and that failed miserably. I know that this group is deeper (better backups) and hopefully coached better, but still makes me nervous.
I think the physical talent and pedigree difference between 2017 and ths year is ENORMOUS x infinity. That being said, until the games are played, we just won't fully know.

I do like the idea of growing from within. Hernandez has ability he just isn't as good as we'd had hoped. Gates is going to be a stud OC in this league. Not a probowler but a lunch-pail ranked 10-12th kind of guy you watch. You have to like Thomas and Peart physically and with some of their experience last year coupled with a camp hopefully they really shoot up the charts. Lemiuex has nothing but upside in pass protect where he is limited physically perhaps but technique work may help.

I like Judge. I like this young team. Whether they gel or not remains to be seen.
Suprised we didn't go Guard later in the draft...  
bluewave : 6/6/2021 9:56 am : link
but the coaching staff must really believe in the guys we have already on the roster. Hopefully it all pans out!
Don't sleep on Kyle Murphy  
Jay on the Island : 6/6/2021 10:05 am : link
I am not suggesting that he is going to be a great player but the coaching staff is reportedly high on him.

Last season we were all concerned that the Giants didn't address the center position in the draft or free agency because they knew what they had in Gates.
RE: Don't sleep on Kyle Murphy  
SGMen : 6/6/2021 10:27 am : link
In comment 15280852 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
I am not suggesting that he is going to be a great player but the coaching staff is reportedly high on him.

Last season we were all concerned that the Giants didn't address the center position in the draft or free agency because they knew what they had in Gates.
Yup, I see Murphy as the "developing" young guy with potential that hopefully surprises and challenges for the #2 OC spot!

The Giants have the youth with potential and again we just have to see in camp and especially during the early part of the season just how good these guys can be!
Armchair OLing  
Jimmy Googs : 6/6/2021 10:35 am : link
Would have brought in or drafted an experienced Center and moved Gates to Right Guard. Let the other Guards battle it out for the Left Guard job...
Im optimistic, A young ,growing ,talented offensive line  
gtt350 : 6/6/2021 10:38 am : link
is a thing of beauty to watch grow.
Sign every “name”  
Dave on the UWS : 6/6/2021 1:23 pm : link
out there cause that always works.
IF they’ve evaluated the raw talent correctly then it’s a coaching issue. They drafted Thomas/Peart to be bookend tackles for a decade. Gates ceiling is unlimited. ( He’s big, nasty athletic and smart) no reason he can’t become a top flight center.
Lemieux can get better at everything ands could be a long time fixture.
WH is the question. He’s never played RG and will be a free agent after the season.
...  
christian : 6/6/2021 1:48 pm : link
For the offensive line to work you have to believe in a pretty significant thesis:

1) Rob Sale, as a first time NFL coach will hit the ground running, working in offensive system that’s also new to him

2) The Giants drafted 3 starting caliber lineman in a single draft, and they will all play an order of magnitude better in their 2nd year

3) The last two years were an aberration for Hernandez, and at a new position he will blossom

I suspect the tune around week 4 will be something like: You couldn’t have expected 5 guys to gel, with no proven veterans, with a new coach, in their first year.
RE: Don't sleep on Kyle Murphy  
gidiefor : Mod : 6/6/2021 2:02 pm : link
In comment 15280852 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
I am not suggesting that he is going to be a great player but the coaching staff is reportedly high on him.

Last season we were all concerned that the Giants didn't address the center position in the draft or free agency because they knew what they had in Gates.


Ha -- not that I am trying to undermine your argument -- but Gettleman has already done that with his "Don't Sleep on Pio" act
Brett Heggie is intriguing, not much expected this year but who knows  
Spider56 : 6/6/2021 2:21 pm : link
he’s the kind of guy you can take a chance on and he won’t have the big program learning curve that Murphy has.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: ...  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/6/2021 2:43 pm : link
In comment 15280935 christian said:
Quote:
For the offensive line to work you have to believe in a pretty significant thesis:

1) Rob Sale, as a first time NFL coach will hit the ground running, working in offensive system that’s also new to him

2) The Giants drafted 3 starting caliber lineman in a single draft, and they will all play an order of magnitude better in their 2nd year

3) The last two years were an aberration for Hernandez, and at a new position he will blossom

I suspect the tune around week 4 will be something like: You couldn’t have expected 5 guys to gel, with no proven veterans, with a new coach, in their first year.


I don’t think that many have expectations of the OL that are high. You don’t need a great OL, but you do need a competent one, or you’re sunk. The OL looked pretty competent last year in the second half of the year. Guard will definitely be a spot they look to upgrade very early next year.

If what they are going with in camp, that left side of the line is going to maul in run game. That’s certainly something we can work with. The interior pressure is going to be a big concern with Lemiuex, but the team has a real good defense and we aren’t going to be forced to be one dimensional too often. Any game we go down 2 TDs in the second half you can probably chalk as a loss, but how often are we going to be in that predicament?

Plus I think many are expecting Hernandez to bounce back and Peart to be good enough. COVID can’t be easy for guys that size and both their play really fell off when they got sick.
Unless Lemiuex makes a massive jump, I expect to see him get rotated o  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/6/2021 2:46 pm : link
out when we need to go one dimensional. It certainly fits with Judges philosophy of tell me what a guy can do not what he can’t. Is it ideal? No, but it’s exactly why I expect them to go guard in round 1, and fortunately that position seems to be plug and play when drafting them that high.
RE: RE: Don't sleep on Kyle Murphy  
ColHowPepper : 6/6/2021 3:35 pm : link
In comment 15280941 gidiefor said:
Quote:
Ha -- not that I am trying to undermine your argument -- but Gettleman has already done that with his "Don't Sleep on Pio" act
Ha, ha, exactly, gidiefor, right along with the dreaded
Quote:
'but the coaching staff is reportedly high on him'.
Failed mantras for the past 10 years of OL re-build fails. Gotta hope it's different, this time, under JJ.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 6/6/2021 4:01 pm : link
In comment 15280960 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
I don’t think that many have expectations of the OL that are high. You don’t need a great OL, but you do need a competent one, or you’re sunk. The OL looked pretty competent last year in the second half of the year. Guard will definitely be a spot they look to upgrade very early next year.


I tend to view the season as Coughlin did - over four, four game periods.

The first two quarters were a disaster, the third quarter was strong, and the fourth was another bad showing.

The Giants couldn’t pass protect or run block we’ll against the better teams on their schedule. They were held under 300 yards in three straight games, and 26 total points.

When Jones was banged up, and the Giants really needed to rely on their ground game, it went south. Jones being hurt was a great opportunity for the line to make a difference. That 1-3 showing to end the year was the reason two of those guys are gone.

Competent for me would be, can this line put the Giants in the position to win 9 games and have a fair shot at the playoffs.

For that outcome I believe Lemieux, Hernandez, and Peart will have to take big leaps forward. I don’t think that’s a high odds proposition.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/6/2021 4:12 pm : link
In comment 15281006 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15280960 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


I don’t think that many have expectations of the OL that are high. You don’t need a great OL, but you do need a competent one, or you’re sunk. The OL looked pretty competent last year in the second half of the year. Guard will definitely be a spot they look to upgrade very early next year.



I tend to view the season as Coughlin did - over four, four game periods.

The first two quarters were a disaster, the third quarter was strong, and the fourth was another bad showing.

The Giants couldn’t pass protect or run block we’ll against the better teams on their schedule. They were held under 300 yards in three straight games, and 26 total points.

When Jones was banged up, and the Giants really needed to rely on their ground game, it went south. Jones being hurt was a great opportunity for the line to make a difference. That 1-3 showing to end the year was the reason two of those guys are gone.

Competent for me would be, can this line put the Giants in the position to win 9 games and have a fair shot at the playoffs.

For that outcome I believe Lemieux, Hernandez, and Peart will have to take big leaps forward. I don’t think that’s a high odds proposition.


Pinning the offensive woes on them in last 4 games isn’t applicable though. They were bad against the Cards, competent in Browns and Ravens game, and good against the Cowboys. Pinning the offensive woes on them with everything else going on isn’t close to accurately portraying how they did as a unit. Didn’t think the gameplan against Cards did them any favors either.
We need more strength, at least one more starter-quality,  
CT Charlie : 6/6/2021 5:02 pm : link
and more depth, as people are bound to get injured, always. But finding 2 such players before September is highly unlikely. This year is our let's-make-progress-and-be-competitive year, while next year is our we-command-respect from-everyone year.
RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
christian : 6/6/2021 5:29 pm : link
In comment 15281007 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
Pinning the offensive woes on them in last 4 games isn’t applicable though. They were bad against the Cards, competent in Browns and Ravens game, and good against the Cowboys. Pinning the offensive woes on them with everything else going on isn’t close to accurately portraying how they did as a unit. Didn’t think the gameplan against Cards did them any favors either.


Against the Ravens Jones was pressured 20 times (42% of drop backs), sacked 6 times, hit another 5 times.

The Giants rushed for 54 total yards and the Ravens had 7 tackles for losses. The Giants were 1/10 on 3rd down.

The Ravens ate the Giants lunch on the line that game. The Giants got behind early, couldn’t run the ball for squat, and the Ravens beat Jones like a bag. That’s not competent in my view.
If the Offensive Line played the last 4 games like they  
Jimmy Googs : 6/6/2021 6:15 pm : link
did games 9-12 the NYG would have won the NFCE. The fact is the competition was better, the stakes were higher and they didn’t make the grade.

More development needed as we all know...
As to the OP,  
Big Blue '56 : 6/6/2021 8:22 pm : link
Who knows?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/6/2021 8:56 pm : link
In comment 15281052 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15281007 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


Pinning the offensive woes on them in last 4 games isn’t applicable though. They were bad against the Cards, competent in Browns and Ravens game, and good against the Cowboys. Pinning the offensive woes on them with everything else going on isn’t close to accurately portraying how they did as a unit. Didn’t think the gameplan against Cards did them any favors either.



Against the Ravens Jones was pressured 20 times (42% of drop backs), sacked 6 times, hit another 5 times.

The Giants rushed for 54 total yards and the Ravens had 7 tackles for losses. The Giants were 1/10 on 3rd down.

The Ravens ate the Giants lunch on the line that game. The Giants got behind early, couldn’t run the ball for squat, and the Ravens beat Jones like a bag. That’s not competent in my view.


I saw a team with a QB that had very limited mobility and was forced to go one dimensional early. The defense didn’t hold their end of the bargain that game. They aren’t going to perform well anytime we need to go one dimensional. That’s my point. They run block well and pass block poorly, which is fine when you can stay balanced or focus on run game. They aren’t going to look good when we are playing from large deficits. I don’t fault them in that spot. With an improved team, we aren’t going to see them in that situation as much.
RE: The Giants have to be able to develop talent  
SGMen : 6/6/2021 9:06 pm : link
In comment 15280810 gidiefor said:
Quote:
or they will never be much good

In my opinion, this line is staffed with good talent right now, we have a good coaching staff which is focused on that line like a laser, I think you have to make hay with this -- there is a cost to bringing in talent iby giving up picks (or a pick) -- you want to harvest more talent out the next draft which is supposed to be loaded
I agree, this is the BEST and long-term most consistent way to build a team and especially an OL.
RE: If the Offensive Line played the last 4 games like they  
SGMen : 6/6/2021 9:24 pm : link
In comment 15281075 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
did games 9-12 the NYG would have won the NFCE. The fact is the competition was better, the stakes were higher and they didn’t make the grade.

More development needed as we all know...
Because these young guys got a good number of snaps last year with no real camp, well, I have to believe with a full camp they will get it together and perform better.
Is the OL capable of being elite? Probably not this year; however, they could be one of the better run blocking OL's.
RE: As to the OP,  
SGMen : 6/6/2021 9:53 pm : link
In comment 15281127 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Who knows?
Truth, who knows? Until the pre-season game reports come in and you see what the starting lineups are consistently; until the games; and especially until the first few games are played you won't know what you truly have.

I do predict a strong run blocking unit, especially on the left and behind TE.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
christian : 6/6/2021 11:50 pm : link
In comment 15281150 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
They run block well and pass block poorly, which is fine when you can stay balanced or focus on run game. They aren’t going to look good when we are playing from large deficits. I don’t fault them in that spot. With an improved team, we aren’t going to see them in that situation as much.


Pass blocking poorly is a fatal flaw that will keep the Giants from benefiting from their biggest offseason investments. It’s why per snap he’s lead the league in first quarter turnovers both years.

The Giants have to protect Jones much, much better. He got beat like a bag all season.
RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
giantstock : 6/7/2021 3:17 am : link
In comment 15281007 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15281006 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 15280960 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


I don’t think that many have expectations of the OL that are high. You don’t need a great OL, but you do need a competent one, or you’re sunk. The OL looked pretty competent last year in the second half of the year. Guard will definitely be a spot they look to upgrade very early next year.



I tend to view the season as Coughlin did - over four, four game periods.

The first two quarters were a disaster, the third quarter was strong, and the fourth was another bad showing.

The Giants couldn’t pass protect or run block we’ll against the better teams on their schedule. They were held under 300 yards in three straight games, and 26 total points.

When Jones was banged up, and the Giants really needed to rely on their ground game, it went south. Jones being hurt was a great opportunity for the line to make a difference. That 1-3 showing to end the year was the reason two of those guys are gone.

Competent for me would be, can this line put the Giants in the position to win 9 games and have a fair shot at the playoffs.

For that outcome I believe Lemieux, Hernandez, and Peart will have to take big leaps forward. I don’t think that’s a high odds proposition.



Pinning the offensive woes on them in last 4 games isn’t applicable though. They were bad against the Cards, competent in Browns and Ravens game, and good against the Cowboys. Pinning the offensive woes on them with everything else going on isn’t close to accurately portraying how they did as a unit. Didn’t think the gameplan against Cards did them any favors either.


Excusing them for being lousy throughout the season and then using the excuse they didn't have camp (no team did) while being in the worst conference ever in the modern era and still having a rating by PFF as 31st OL isn't accurately portraying how awful the unit was either.

The plan for this year  
UberAlias : 6/7/2021 8:14 am : link
Is the continue developing the young guys in your system, growth from more time playing as a unit, investments and more consistency in coaching. Those things should all help. How much, no one can say with certainty. The answer can’t always be, go out and sign an established veteran.
I'll believe it's a good o-line when they play like a good o-line  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/7/2021 8:54 am : link
without a qualifier.

There's no cause for blind optimism other than that being the path you choose to take.
...  
christian : 6/7/2021 9:45 am : link
It’s the only unit on the team without an established veteran, good player. You have 5 positions to fill — I’m surprised the Giants didn’t add a proven player to their presumptive starting 5.

To me it’s a matter of likelihoods. The Giants are banking on Hernandez to have a renaissance, Peart, and Lemieux to develop into solid starters in their second year. All under a first time NFL position coach.

If the Giant field a competent offensive line this year, it’s nothing short of a miracle.
Giants have the potential  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/7/2021 11:43 am : link
to go 5-1 in the division if not better. Three of the OL were either rookies or playing a new position. A big factor in OL's development is knowing your opponent and tape is far different than actual experience. They have that now. I think Thomas in particular will benefit.

You also don't need all five lineman to be studs. You need some to stand out. You can scheme to help others provided you get serviceable effort. Offense can dictate so they have the advantage here. Don't forget the impact that Rudolph will have on the OL as well. This will help Peart.
Giant Stock wrote  
Grizz99 : 6/7/2021 3:29 pm : link
Excusing them for being lousy throughout the season and then using the excuse they didn't have camp (no team did) while being in the worst conference ever in the modern era and still having a rating by PFF as 31st OL isn't accurately portraying how awful the unit was either.

Other teams missed a pre-season, but they didn't have a new coaching staff, new systems and a line that had never played together before.
Missing pre-season hurt the Giants much more than anyone else where there wasn't a new coaching staff.
They played two rookies and a guy new to his position.
Fleming was new and only Hernandez was a hold over.
That's close to the perfect Storm.
Of all units the O line is dependent on continuity. And they barely had time for introductions ...good thing they wear the names on the jersey.
They also featured a tight end that couldn't block and that didn't help.
Let's give them a pre-season, a year within the same system, some help at the skill positions and then make judgements.

Word was they were looking for a veteran  
JonC : 6/7/2021 3:32 pm : link
to add to the unit, and I thought they would. Seems the guy from the Texans might have been the fallback. Turner is still out there. At this point, wouldn't think they'd want him to miss OTAs and training camp because of the message it sends.
RE: Giant Stock wrote  
giantstock : 6/8/2021 1:01 am : link
In comment 15281728 Grizz99 said:
Quote:

Other teams missed a pre-season, but they didn't have a new coaching staff, new systems and a line that had never played together before.
Missing pre-season hurt the Giants much more than anyone else where there wasn't a new coaching staff.
They played two rookies and a guy new to his position.
Fleming was new and only Hernandez was a hold over.
That's close to the perfect Storm.
Of all units the O line is dependent on continuity. And they barely had time for introductions ...good thing they wear the names on the jersey.
They also featured a tight end that couldn't block and that didn't help.
Let's give them a pre-season, a year within the same system, some help at the skill positions and then make judgements.


1-- So other teams with new coaching staffs can never be successful? In other words- more excuses from posters like grizz.

2-- The OL that "never played before" is ripe for the same excuse this year - after another bad season if it happens we can count on grizz and others will say the following season that "This is actually year 1 with one of the most young OL's- so wait until 2022."

3-- A full season doesn't count. It's only the games that the unbias Giants fan- grizz wants to count that matter.

4-- Giants lose their best OL from last year. So for Grizz and posters like him - let's not count that he's gone instead let's cherry pick games grizz wants to count and and use that data and pretend that it's relevant despite they are now missing last year's best OLineman.

5-- Our division was a historic joke. But let's pretend like it wasn't and use "awww poor baby" excuse.

6-- What next from posters like grizz? The OL and Giants have to play too many night games or too many late 4:00 games? It's too windy? Too cold?

Please let's stop with the excuses. We're better than that.

RE: RE: Giant Stock wrote  
SGMen : 6/8/2021 9:48 pm : link
In comment 15282033 giantstock said:
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In comment 15281728 Grizz99 said:


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Other teams missed a pre-season, but they didn't have a new coaching staff, new systems and a line that had never played together before.
Missing pre-season hurt the Giants much more than anyone else where there wasn't a new coaching staff.
They played two rookies and a guy new to his position.
Fleming was new and only Hernandez was a hold over.
That's close to the perfect Storm.
Of all units the O line is dependent on continuity. And they barely had time for introductions ...good thing they wear the names on the jersey.
They also featured a tight end that couldn't block and that didn't help.
Let's give them a pre-season, a year within the same system, some help at the skill positions and then make judgements.




1-- So other teams with new coaching staffs can never be successful? In other words- more excuses from posters like grizz.

2-- The OL that "never played before" is ripe for the same excuse this year - after another bad season if it happens we can count on grizz and others will say the following season that "This is actually year 1 with one of the most young OL's- so wait until 2022."

3-- A full season doesn't count. It's only the games that the unbias Giants fan- grizz wants to count that matter.

4-- Giants lose their best OL from last year. So for Grizz and posters like him - let's not count that he's gone instead let's cherry pick games grizz wants to count and and use that data and pretend that it's relevant despite they are now missing last year's best OLineman.

5-- Our division was a historic joke. But let's pretend like it wasn't and use "awww poor baby" excuse.

6-- What next from posters like grizz? The OL and Giants have to play too many night games or too many late 4:00 games? It's too windy? Too cold?

Please let's stop with the excuses. We're better than that.
I'm not sure excuses is the right word but some facts are clear: this was a young OL with no real camp working a new system and we sucked. Sucked really bad at times and gave D. Jones and our run game no chance.

I expect more continuity and more push in the run game this year. There will be breakdowns as this is again still a young OL but as the season progresses I see the potential of our being a top third run blocking unit and perhaps average pass protect for an overall slightly above average OL. But we must stay healthy and develop that necessary continuity to achieve victory.
RE: RE: RE: Giant Stock wrote  
giantstock : 6/9/2021 9:17 am : link
In comment 15282826 SGMen said:
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In comment 15282033 giantstock said:


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In comment 15281728 Grizz99 said:


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I'm not sure excuses is the right word but some facts are clear: this was a young OL with no real camp working a new system and we sucked. Sucked really bad at times and gave D. Jones and our run game no chance.

I expect more continuity and more push in the run game this year. There will be breakdowns as this is again still a young OL but as the season progresses I see the potential of our being a top third run blocking unit and perhaps average pass protect for an overall slightly above average OL. But we must stay healthy and develop that necessary continuity to achieve victory.


I think "excuses" is in part. Again I'll say other teams didn't have camp too. And again- the Giants played in a division that was historically bad.

Once Barkley went down and as season progressed it was obvious that the Giants were a crappy team, where was the concern of the Giants running game? How hard were you game-planning Gallman vs Jones?

Yes it-s possible the everything could be okay. But it is also possible that losing your best OLinemen and playing teams that now will focus again on stopping Barkley while forcing Jones to beat them will keep Giants from not being good yet again. Wouldn't your 1st priority be to worry about jones and do what you can to rattle him in a passing league?

Also- other teams will have continuity too. Do you recall when Giants first got Solder and Omamweh (the thought by many on here was that at least Omammweh can play i.e. availability - vs Pugh) and moved Flowers to RT? What was the thought? That we'd be better right? Then the next year wasn't their the excuse that Solder was hurt and other excuses for him? And their was the thought that now we're better at RG and RT too?

And whether we were better or weren't - there was always excuses but at some point if they were actually better - they still sucked, right? So-- isn't it possible that this year - that we could see an improvement (despite missing last year's best OLieman) but the degree that they improve still shows that they still aren't good?

For example, when Giants beat Seattle the prevalent thought was "That game shows what we are." While what do you think fans from Seattle think? They either think it was a major letdown game that it was primarily their team didn't come ready to play or they just needed this year to tweak a minor issue or two and now this year they felt they fixed it. Now won't they be talking about "continuity" etc the same here the Giants fans are talking?

^^^^^^  
chick310 : 6/9/2021 10:10 am : link
This is a pretty fair post.

The optimism in this OL, versus the recent past ones, has to be mostly around if there is true promise in the young guys to grow into plus-type players in their roles.

Guys like Solder, Omameh, Fleming and even Zeitler for instance had already reached whatever ceilings they had before becoming NY Giants. And unfortunately the only thing that occurred was a decline in their play while on our roster. Any optimism expressed with them would have to have been a turnaround or even stabilization in their career progression which is not typical.

We have seen Thomas, Gates, Lemeiux and even some of Peart play already. They had a lot to learn, had plenty of bumps in the road last season and now the question is there upward potential in all of their respective talents now that 2020 is behind them. And is that potential enough to get them on a career progression path that turns them into plus-type players.

I don't think it has to be all of them, but there needs to be some reasonable mixture of plus and average players on the 5-man OL. And certainly no more than one below average type.
I know..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/9/2021 10:20 am : link
discussing the OL is basically a daily thread now, but no matter what is discussed here isn't going to change what will happen. we don't even know what should or shouldn't be done, and frankly, even the speculation is made without the right information.

When we ask if the OL should be upgraded, it not only assumes that a new addition would be an upgrade, but that the player he's replacing is relegated to being a backup or no longer on the team. That's a decision only the coaches can know and make. DG drafted Trai Turner. If there was interest in bringing him in now, it would have been done or the coaches could have said they don't need him brought in now.

Replacing Thomas, Lemieux, Hernandez, Gates or Peart means that a young player will have his growth retarded, if the coaches believe each of those players can improve. And because of that, using the term "upgrade" from a fan's perspective can only be based on our perception of a player who we know little to nothing about. I've heard people say Turner is an immediate upgrade and I have no idea if that's true. The flipside is the people saying that have no idea either.

This doesn't have to be blind faith in the coaches on this topic, but it truly is an argument almost every fan is too ignorant to state with any sort of competence.
RE: I know..  
christian : 6/9/2021 4:37 pm : link
In comment 15282990 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
discussing the OL is basically a daily thread now, but no matter what is discussed here isn't going to change what will happen.


Thanks for the ground breaking insights Big Red. Here some us were thinking what we discussed on BBI was going to change what the Giants did! The pressure is o.f.f.
RE: I know..  
SGMen : 6/9/2021 8:40 pm : link
In comment 15282990 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
discussing the OL is basically a daily thread now, but no matter what is discussed here isn't going to change what will happen. we don't even know what should or shouldn't be done, and frankly, even the speculation is made without the right information.

When we ask if the OL should be upgraded, it not only assumes that a new addition would be an upgrade, but that the player he's replacing is relegated to being a backup or no longer on the team. That's a decision only the coaches can know and make. DG drafted Trai Turner. If there was interest in bringing him in now, it would have been done or the coaches could have said they don't need him brought in now.

Replacing Thomas, Lemieux, Hernandez, Gates or Peart means that a young player will have his growth retarded, if the coaches believe each of those players can improve. And because of that, using the term "upgrade" from a fan's perspective can only be based on our perception of a player who we know little to nothing about. I've heard people say Turner is an immediate upgrade and I have no idea if that's true. The flipside is the people saying that have no idea either.

This doesn't have to be blind faith in the coaches on this topic, but it truly is an argument almost every fan is too ignorant to state with any sort of competence.
I think the easiest answer is that we will be going with the young group posted above:

Thomas-Lemiuex-Gates-Hernandez-Peart - a very young group indeed but there is surely potential. In Judge and the coaches I believe.

But I think every team has its eyes open to upgrading if they can. To me Hernandez is the weak link until proven otherwise.
Finally, I like that Solder is in camp with the young guys  
SGMen : 6/10/2021 8:26 pm : link
While he has struggled, he has rings and NFL experience. He seems like a leader and hopefully he has another year in the gas tank to serve as our swing tackle.

Thomas-Lemiuex-Gates-Hernandez-Peart - may this group stay healthy and whole through the year to the point where they are dominant by year end when it counts the most.
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