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@art_stapleton
Entire Giants offensive line present for the second (and last) OTA open to the media. Same configuration as last week.
Thomas-Lemieux-Gates-Hernandez Peart
Second team OL
Slade-Wiggins-Harrison-Fulton-Solder
Experienced depth across the front a big change for NYG OL this early.
I still believe that we may sign a veteran OL if he is a clear upgrade. I'm not up on who is out there though really. But as a HC, lets say you know an OG upgrade is needed and you know we have two #1's next year why not possibly trade a #3 for an upgrade if possible? Or trade Hernandez and a #3 for a stud if available should a team want to say lower cap or something?
Having said that, I think we stand pat with what we have unless a player is clearly available and upgrades.
In my opinion, this line is staffed with good talent right now, we have a good coaching staff which is focused on that line like a laser, I think you have to make hay with this -- there is a cost to bringing in talent iby giving up picks (or a pick) -- you want to harvest more talent out the next draft which is supposed to be loaded
The current roster has 14 OLs. Since Slade is a G/T that has been used in OTAs as a T, then its likely that a G will be signed so that we have 6.
Having 15 OLs for training camp allows 3 full units along the line for practice.
I think it will happen, and the signing is more likely a younger unknown that the Giants feel has some potential (not to make the roster) to possibly make the practice squad.
I agree, it is time to start developing players from within. Most NFL lines are made up of what we call JAGs. Just average in the NFL is pretty good.
In my opinion, this line is staffed with good talent right now, we have a good coaching staff which is focused on that line like a laser, I think you have to make hay with this -- there is a cost to bringing in talent iby giving up picks (or a pick) -- you want to harvest more talent out the next draft which is supposed to be loaded
After our last couple of coaching staffs people tend to forget that developing players is an actual option…..
If Sale could put 2 guys from ULL in the NFL he can do something with the physical abilities our young guys have.
The current roster has 14 OLs. Since Slade is a G/T that has been used in OTAs as a T, then its likely that a G will be signed so that we have 6.
Having 15 OLs for training camp allows 3 full units along the line for practice.
I think it will happen, and the signing is more likely a younger unknown that the Giants feel has some potential (not to make the roster) to possibly make the practice squad.
However, I do wonder if a veteran of merit were to be released how motivated the Giants would be to spend and get him given the cap and current roster?
My fear with Lemiuex is pass protection. Its a legit fear. However, with a full training camp and the ability to review his tape from last year you hope he upgrades in that area enough to be "serviceable" (acceptable). I think both he and Thomas could provide us with a top run left option. Both guys are potential beasts run blocking wise.
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In comment 15280792 SGMen said:
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In comment 15280777 Jimmy Googs said:
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OP - who are the clear upgrades that are still available at Guard?
The top UFA guard is clearly Trai Turner but my guess is he'd cost a fortune though he is only 28 and has had a very healthy career. Signing him would elevate the OL greatly. But do you invest big money in an OG at this point or roll the dice? My thought is you stick with Hernandez who is cheap in comparison and upgrade via either UFA or the draft 1st round for OG.
The Athletic reported a month ago Turner was only seeking a deal in the $2-$3M range.
That isn't big money at all but, if accurate, tells you a little bit about what the NFL thinks of him since he hasn't signed with anyone.
Odd given his solid career? Perhaps he was hurt or has some undisclosed illness? On paper, Turner is an upgrade but what do I know outside of what I read?
Bottom line: can we upgrade OG right now outside of developing our own via this coaching staff? I'm leaning on we likely can't unless there is some kind of trade and those are very rare especially given the cap.
Thomas-Lemiuex-Gates-Hernandez-Peart - that is the starting line for opening day, barring injuries of course!
It's not odd at all. This has been discussed on here many times. His play has decreased each of the last 3 year and fell off a cliff last year. If you buy into what PFF is selling I think the only player that was worse than Turner last year was Lemieux. Turner is a name. If the price is right I am sure the Giants are looking into him but the Giants, imo, would only play him backup money to compete for a spot. He's not the player he once was.
Imo, they are giving these guys a chance to fail. If they don't like what they see during camp then that is when a move will be made whether it be a FA or a trade. We need to remember that we are up against the cap right now so fitting a $2 mil player is now wise move. See where your team is at. If a move needs to be made then make it when you have a better understanding where your team needs to improve. If they spend money on Turner, he sucks, Lemieux and Hernandez are kicking ass, and you encounter injuries at another position then you are fucked.
In terms of the “love” for Sale, try to remember how positive the feeling was at around this time last year when Colombo was signed. It was even more love.
I do like the idea of growing from within. Hernandez has ability he just isn't as good as we'd had hoped. Gates is going to be a stud OC in this league. Not a probowler but a lunch-pail ranked 10-12th kind of guy you watch. You have to like Thomas and Peart physically and with some of their experience last year coupled with a camp hopefully they really shoot up the charts. Lemiuex has nothing but upside in pass protect where he is limited physically perhaps but technique work may help.
I like Judge. I like this young team. Whether they gel or not remains to be seen.
Last season we were all concerned that the Giants didn't address the center position in the draft or free agency because they knew what they had in Gates.
Last season we were all concerned that the Giants didn't address the center position in the draft or free agency because they knew what they had in Gates.
The Giants have the youth with potential and again we just have to see in camp and especially during the early part of the season just how good these guys can be!
IF they’ve evaluated the raw talent correctly then it’s a coaching issue. They drafted Thomas/Peart to be bookend tackles for a decade. Gates ceiling is unlimited. ( He’s big, nasty athletic and smart) no reason he can’t become a top flight center.
Lemieux can get better at everything ands could be a long time fixture.
WH is the question. He’s never played RG and will be a free agent after the season.
1) Rob Sale, as a first time NFL coach will hit the ground running, working in offensive system that’s also new to him
2) The Giants drafted 3 starting caliber lineman in a single draft, and they will all play an order of magnitude better in their 2nd year
3) The last two years were an aberration for Hernandez, and at a new position he will blossom
I suspect the tune around week 4 will be something like: You couldn’t have expected 5 guys to gel, with no proven veterans, with a new coach, in their first year.
Last season we were all concerned that the Giants didn't address the center position in the draft or free agency because they knew what they had in Gates.
Ha -- not that I am trying to undermine your argument -- but Gettleman has already done that with his "Don't Sleep on Pio" act
Link - ( New Window )
1) Rob Sale, as a first time NFL coach will hit the ground running, working in offensive system that’s also new to him
2) The Giants drafted 3 starting caliber lineman in a single draft, and they will all play an order of magnitude better in their 2nd year
3) The last two years were an aberration for Hernandez, and at a new position he will blossom
I suspect the tune around week 4 will be something like: You couldn’t have expected 5 guys to gel, with no proven veterans, with a new coach, in their first year.
I don’t think that many have expectations of the OL that are high. You don’t need a great OL, but you do need a competent one, or you’re sunk. The OL looked pretty competent last year in the second half of the year. Guard will definitely be a spot they look to upgrade very early next year.
If what they are going with in camp, that left side of the line is going to maul in run game. That’s certainly something we can work with. The interior pressure is going to be a big concern with Lemiuex, but the team has a real good defense and we aren’t going to be forced to be one dimensional too often. Any game we go down 2 TDs in the second half you can probably chalk as a loss, but how often are we going to be in that predicament?
Plus I think many are expecting Hernandez to bounce back and Peart to be good enough. COVID can’t be easy for guys that size and both their play really fell off when they got sick.
I tend to view the season as Coughlin did - over four, four game periods.
The first two quarters were a disaster, the third quarter was strong, and the fourth was another bad showing.
The Giants couldn’t pass protect or run block we’ll against the better teams on their schedule. They were held under 300 yards in three straight games, and 26 total points.
When Jones was banged up, and the Giants really needed to rely on their ground game, it went south. Jones being hurt was a great opportunity for the line to make a difference. That 1-3 showing to end the year was the reason two of those guys are gone.
Competent for me would be, can this line put the Giants in the position to win 9 games and have a fair shot at the playoffs.
For that outcome I believe Lemieux, Hernandez, and Peart will have to take big leaps forward. I don’t think that’s a high odds proposition.
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I don’t think that many have expectations of the OL that are high. You don’t need a great OL, but you do need a competent one, or you’re sunk. The OL looked pretty competent last year in the second half of the year. Guard will definitely be a spot they look to upgrade very early next year.
I tend to view the season as Coughlin did - over four, four game periods.
The first two quarters were a disaster, the third quarter was strong, and the fourth was another bad showing.
The Giants couldn’t pass protect or run block we’ll against the better teams on their schedule. They were held under 300 yards in three straight games, and 26 total points.
When Jones was banged up, and the Giants really needed to rely on their ground game, it went south. Jones being hurt was a great opportunity for the line to make a difference. That 1-3 showing to end the year was the reason two of those guys are gone.
Competent for me would be, can this line put the Giants in the position to win 9 games and have a fair shot at the playoffs.
For that outcome I believe Lemieux, Hernandez, and Peart will have to take big leaps forward. I don’t think that’s a high odds proposition.
Pinning the offensive woes on them in last 4 games isn’t applicable though. They were bad against the Cards, competent in Browns and Ravens game, and good against the Cowboys. Pinning the offensive woes on them with everything else going on isn’t close to accurately portraying how they did as a unit. Didn’t think the gameplan against Cards did them any favors either.
Against the Ravens Jones was pressured 20 times (42% of drop backs), sacked 6 times, hit another 5 times.
The Giants rushed for 54 total yards and the Ravens had 7 tackles for losses. The Giants were 1/10 on 3rd down.
The Ravens ate the Giants lunch on the line that game. The Giants got behind early, couldn’t run the ball for squat, and the Ravens beat Jones like a bag. That’s not competent in my view.
More development needed as we all know...
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Pinning the offensive woes on them in last 4 games isn’t applicable though. They were bad against the Cards, competent in Browns and Ravens game, and good against the Cowboys. Pinning the offensive woes on them with everything else going on isn’t close to accurately portraying how they did as a unit. Didn’t think the gameplan against Cards did them any favors either.
Against the Ravens Jones was pressured 20 times (42% of drop backs), sacked 6 times, hit another 5 times.
The Giants rushed for 54 total yards and the Ravens had 7 tackles for losses. The Giants were 1/10 on 3rd down.
The Ravens ate the Giants lunch on the line that game. The Giants got behind early, couldn’t run the ball for squat, and the Ravens beat Jones like a bag. That’s not competent in my view.
I saw a team with a QB that had very limited mobility and was forced to go one dimensional early. The defense didn’t hold their end of the bargain that game. They aren’t going to perform well anytime we need to go one dimensional. That’s my point. They run block well and pass block poorly, which is fine when you can stay balanced or focus on run game. They aren’t going to look good when we are playing from large deficits. I don’t fault them in that spot. With an improved team, we aren’t going to see them in that situation as much.
In my opinion, this line is staffed with good talent right now, we have a good coaching staff which is focused on that line like a laser, I think you have to make hay with this -- there is a cost to bringing in talent iby giving up picks (or a pick) -- you want to harvest more talent out the next draft which is supposed to be loaded
More development needed as we all know...
Is the OL capable of being elite? Probably not this year; however, they could be one of the better run blocking OL's.
I do predict a strong run blocking unit, especially on the left and behind TE.
Pass blocking poorly is a fatal flaw that will keep the Giants from benefiting from their biggest offseason investments. It’s why per snap he’s lead the league in first quarter turnovers both years.
The Giants have to protect Jones much, much better. He got beat like a bag all season.
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In comment 15280960 Zeke's Alibi said:
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I don’t think that many have expectations of the OL that are high. You don’t need a great OL, but you do need a competent one, or you’re sunk. The OL looked pretty competent last year in the second half of the year. Guard will definitely be a spot they look to upgrade very early next year.
I tend to view the season as Coughlin did - over four, four game periods.
The first two quarters were a disaster, the third quarter was strong, and the fourth was another bad showing.
The Giants couldn’t pass protect or run block we’ll against the better teams on their schedule. They were held under 300 yards in three straight games, and 26 total points.
When Jones was banged up, and the Giants really needed to rely on their ground game, it went south. Jones being hurt was a great opportunity for the line to make a difference. That 1-3 showing to end the year was the reason two of those guys are gone.
Competent for me would be, can this line put the Giants in the position to win 9 games and have a fair shot at the playoffs.
For that outcome I believe Lemieux, Hernandez, and Peart will have to take big leaps forward. I don’t think that’s a high odds proposition.
Pinning the offensive woes on them in last 4 games isn’t applicable though. They were bad against the Cards, competent in Browns and Ravens game, and good against the Cowboys. Pinning the offensive woes on them with everything else going on isn’t close to accurately portraying how they did as a unit. Didn’t think the gameplan against Cards did them any favors either.
Excusing them for being lousy throughout the season and then using the excuse they didn't have camp (no team did) while being in the worst conference ever in the modern era and still having a rating by PFF as 31st OL isn't accurately portraying how awful the unit was either.
There's no cause for blind optimism other than that being the path you choose to take.
To me it’s a matter of likelihoods. The Giants are banking on Hernandez to have a renaissance, Peart, and Lemieux to develop into solid starters in their second year. All under a first time NFL position coach.
If the Giant field a competent offensive line this year, it’s nothing short of a miracle.
You also don't need all five lineman to be studs. You need some to stand out. You can scheme to help others provided you get serviceable effort. Offense can dictate so they have the advantage here. Don't forget the impact that Rudolph will have on the OL as well. This will help Peart.
Other teams missed a pre-season, but they didn't have a new coaching staff, new systems and a line that had never played together before.
Missing pre-season hurt the Giants much more than anyone else where there wasn't a new coaching staff.
They played two rookies and a guy new to his position.
Fleming was new and only Hernandez was a hold over.
That's close to the perfect Storm.
Of all units the O line is dependent on continuity. And they barely had time for introductions ...good thing they wear the names on the jersey.
They also featured a tight end that couldn't block and that didn't help.
Let's give them a pre-season, a year within the same system, some help at the skill positions and then make judgements.
Other teams missed a pre-season, but they didn't have a new coaching staff, new systems and a line that had never played together before.
Missing pre-season hurt the Giants much more than anyone else where there wasn't a new coaching staff.
They played two rookies and a guy new to his position.
Fleming was new and only Hernandez was a hold over.
That's close to the perfect Storm.
Of all units the O line is dependent on continuity. And they barely had time for introductions ...good thing they wear the names on the jersey.
They also featured a tight end that couldn't block and that didn't help.
Let's give them a pre-season, a year within the same system, some help at the skill positions and then make judgements.
1-- So other teams with new coaching staffs can never be successful? In other words- more excuses from posters like grizz.
2-- The OL that "never played before" is ripe for the same excuse this year - after another bad season if it happens we can count on grizz and others will say the following season that "This is actually year 1 with one of the most young OL's- so wait until 2022."
3-- A full season doesn't count. It's only the games that the unbias Giants fan- grizz wants to count that matter.
4-- Giants lose their best OL from last year. So for Grizz and posters like him - let's not count that he's gone instead let's cherry pick games grizz wants to count and and use that data and pretend that it's relevant despite they are now missing last year's best OLineman.
5-- Our division was a historic joke. But let's pretend like it wasn't and use "awww poor baby" excuse.
6-- What next from posters like grizz? The OL and Giants have to play too many night games or too many late 4:00 games? It's too windy? Too cold?
Please let's stop with the excuses. We're better than that.
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Other teams missed a pre-season, but they didn't have a new coaching staff, new systems and a line that had never played together before.
Missing pre-season hurt the Giants much more than anyone else where there wasn't a new coaching staff.
They played two rookies and a guy new to his position.
Fleming was new and only Hernandez was a hold over.
That's close to the perfect Storm.
Of all units the O line is dependent on continuity. And they barely had time for introductions ...good thing they wear the names on the jersey.
They also featured a tight end that couldn't block and that didn't help.
Let's give them a pre-season, a year within the same system, some help at the skill positions and then make judgements.
1-- So other teams with new coaching staffs can never be successful? In other words- more excuses from posters like grizz.
2-- The OL that "never played before" is ripe for the same excuse this year - after another bad season if it happens we can count on grizz and others will say the following season that "This is actually year 1 with one of the most young OL's- so wait until 2022."
3-- A full season doesn't count. It's only the games that the unbias Giants fan- grizz wants to count that matter.
4-- Giants lose their best OL from last year. So for Grizz and posters like him - let's not count that he's gone instead let's cherry pick games grizz wants to count and and use that data and pretend that it's relevant despite they are now missing last year's best OLineman.
5-- Our division was a historic joke. But let's pretend like it wasn't and use "awww poor baby" excuse.
6-- What next from posters like grizz? The OL and Giants have to play too many night games or too many late 4:00 games? It's too windy? Too cold?
Please let's stop with the excuses. We're better than that.
I expect more continuity and more push in the run game this year. There will be breakdowns as this is again still a young OL but as the season progresses I see the potential of our being a top third run blocking unit and perhaps average pass protect for an overall slightly above average OL. But we must stay healthy and develop that necessary continuity to achieve victory.
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In comment 15281728 Grizz99 said:
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I'm not sure excuses is the right word but some facts are clear: this was a young OL with no real camp working a new system and we sucked. Sucked really bad at times and gave D. Jones and our run game no chance.
I expect more continuity and more push in the run game this year. There will be breakdowns as this is again still a young OL but as the season progresses I see the potential of our being a top third run blocking unit and perhaps average pass protect for an overall slightly above average OL. But we must stay healthy and develop that necessary continuity to achieve victory.
I think "excuses" is in part. Again I'll say other teams didn't have camp too. And again- the Giants played in a division that was historically bad.
Once Barkley went down and as season progressed it was obvious that the Giants were a crappy team, where was the concern of the Giants running game? How hard were you game-planning Gallman vs Jones?
Yes it-s possible the everything could be okay. But it is also possible that losing your best OLinemen and playing teams that now will focus again on stopping Barkley while forcing Jones to beat them will keep Giants from not being good yet again. Wouldn't your 1st priority be to worry about jones and do what you can to rattle him in a passing league?
Also- other teams will have continuity too. Do you recall when Giants first got Solder and Omamweh (the thought by many on here was that at least Omammweh can play i.e. availability - vs Pugh) and moved Flowers to RT? What was the thought? That we'd be better right? Then the next year wasn't their the excuse that Solder was hurt and other excuses for him? And their was the thought that now we're better at RG and RT too?
And whether we were better or weren't - there was always excuses but at some point if they were actually better - they still sucked, right? So-- isn't it possible that this year - that we could see an improvement (despite missing last year's best OLieman) but the degree that they improve still shows that they still aren't good?
For example, when Giants beat Seattle the prevalent thought was "That game shows what we are." While what do you think fans from Seattle think? They either think it was a major letdown game that it was primarily their team didn't come ready to play or they just needed this year to tweak a minor issue or two and now this year they felt they fixed it. Now won't they be talking about "continuity" etc the same here the Giants fans are talking?
The optimism in this OL, versus the recent past ones, has to be mostly around if there is true promise in the young guys to grow into plus-type players in their roles.
Guys like Solder, Omameh, Fleming and even Zeitler for instance had already reached whatever ceilings they had before becoming NY Giants. And unfortunately the only thing that occurred was a decline in their play while on our roster. Any optimism expressed with them would have to have been a turnaround or even stabilization in their career progression which is not typical.
We have seen Thomas, Gates, Lemeiux and even some of Peart play already. They had a lot to learn, had plenty of bumps in the road last season and now the question is there upward potential in all of their respective talents now that 2020 is behind them. And is that potential enough to get them on a career progression path that turns them into plus-type players.
I don't think it has to be all of them, but there needs to be some reasonable mixture of plus and average players on the 5-man OL. And certainly no more than one below average type.
When we ask if the OL should be upgraded, it not only assumes that a new addition would be an upgrade, but that the player he's replacing is relegated to being a backup or no longer on the team. That's a decision only the coaches can know and make. DG drafted Trai Turner. If there was interest in bringing him in now, it would have been done or the coaches could have said they don't need him brought in now.
Replacing Thomas, Lemieux, Hernandez, Gates or Peart means that a young player will have his growth retarded, if the coaches believe each of those players can improve. And because of that, using the term "upgrade" from a fan's perspective can only be based on our perception of a player who we know little to nothing about. I've heard people say Turner is an immediate upgrade and I have no idea if that's true. The flipside is the people saying that have no idea either.
This doesn't have to be blind faith in the coaches on this topic, but it truly is an argument almost every fan is too ignorant to state with any sort of competence.
Thanks for the ground breaking insights Big Red. Here some us were thinking what we discussed on BBI was going to change what the Giants did! The pressure is o.f.f.
When we ask if the OL should be upgraded, it not only assumes that a new addition would be an upgrade, but that the player he's replacing is relegated to being a backup or no longer on the team. That's a decision only the coaches can know and make. DG drafted Trai Turner. If there was interest in bringing him in now, it would have been done or the coaches could have said they don't need him brought in now.
Replacing Thomas, Lemieux, Hernandez, Gates or Peart means that a young player will have his growth retarded, if the coaches believe each of those players can improve. And because of that, using the term "upgrade" from a fan's perspective can only be based on our perception of a player who we know little to nothing about. I've heard people say Turner is an immediate upgrade and I have no idea if that's true. The flipside is the people saying that have no idea either.
This doesn't have to be blind faith in the coaches on this topic, but it truly is an argument almost every fan is too ignorant to state with any sort of competence.
Thomas-Lemiuex-Gates-Hernandez-Peart - a very young group indeed but there is surely potential. In Judge and the coaches I believe.
But I think every team has its eyes open to upgrading if they can. To me Hernandez is the weak link until proven otherwise.
Thomas-Lemiuex-Gates-Hernandez-Peart - may this group stay healthy and whole through the year to the point where they are dominant by year end when it counts the most.