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@art_stapleton
Entire Giants offensive line present for the second (and last) OTA open to the media. Same configuration as last week.
Thomas-Lemieux-Gates-Hernandez Peart
Second team OL
Slade-Wiggins-Harrison-Fulton-Solder
Experienced depth across the front a big change for NYG OL this early.
I still believe that we may sign a veteran OL if he is a clear upgrade. I'm not up on who is out there though really. But as a HC, lets say you know an OG upgrade is needed and you know we have two #1's next year why not possibly trade a #3 for an upgrade if possible? Or trade Hernandez and a #3 for a stud if available should a team want to say lower cap or something?
Having said that, I think we stand pat with what we have unless a player is clearly available and upgrades.
However, I'd love a smash-mouth offensive guard who is clearly better than what we have. I like Lemiuex but its only because I think he can improve a whole lot as a pass protector. If he falters in this area we have a veteran to step up but then the depth is limited.
It's going to be the 4th year for Hernandez.
Zoom calls, zero pre-season games, new coaching staff
Let them plau
The worst thing they could do is have the mentality of "have to let them play" if they know they do not have the ability.
Coach Sale is a very interesting hire. He is actually light on years in terms of being a OL coach. He has though served in a dual role as OL/OC/run game coordinator in most of his jobs. Perhaps in addition to teaching new techniques we see some changes in the actual run schemes.
Zoom calls, zero pre-season games, new coaching staff
Let them plau
And lets say Lemiuex falters in pass protection (we know he can run block) and is deemed a liability after a few games, we at least have a veteran that can step in.
But to go back to the premise of my post: what if we can get an upgrade OG, a clear-cut upgrade to Lemiuex / Hernandez by say trading Hernandez and a #3 for him? This year, do you pull that trigger prior to the start of camp knowing a big-time OL (he'd have to be a stud) could swing the pendulum our way?
I think Gates will truly improve as an OC to be "better than average" and I do believe Hernandez will show better this year with a camp and his health in better order. But a stud, road-grading OG could really spurt our run game and therefore offense.
My prayer with Lemiuex is that he is "serviceable" in pass protection - at a minimum! He can run block and we saw that last year.
Bottom Line: in camp we will learn a lot, for sure, but until the real games are played we won't have a true handle on what we have. That is how I see it.
Thomas-Lemiuex-Gates-Hernandez-Peart for 2021 though I do believe if Hernandez has a "average" year they will try and upgrade with an above-average prospect and let him walk via UFA. But that is of course just a hunch.
For the stat guys, how about we find some that show the average down and distance on 2nd/3rd down. Take a look at that over the last ten years or so.
So two things that need to improve
1. Improving down and distance (where running game comes in).
2. Having WR's that win matchups. Garrett said a very interesting thing a couple months ago. Jones is making the correct read and "he needs to let it rip". Is this lack of confidence in himself or his WR's? Improved weapons and running game will help answer this.
For the stat guys, how about we find some that show the average down and distance on 2nd/3rd down. Take a look at that over the last ten years or so.
So two things that need to improve
1. Improving down and distance (where running game comes in).
2. Having WR's that win matchups. Garrett said a very interesting thing a couple months ago. Jones is making the correct read and "he needs to let it rip". Is this lack of confidence in himself or his WR's? Improved weapons and running game will help answer this.
Again, if this young OL can run block and improves its pass protection to at least average, this offense will click as I believe in Jones.
I think Chicago will give us a 8- 15 range first round pick as their offense is sill terrible and their defense took a few off-season hits. I still believe we finish 10-7 and division champs so we pick in 20's. OG's will be available at one of those picks should we go that route. Too far ahead to tell of course.
Now would I be happy if we signed Turner? YES. I'm a fan. But we can't crazy over-pay for this position given our other needs which is why I don't see him as an option.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/guard/
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OP - who are the clear upgrades that are still available at Guard?
The top UFA guard is clearly Trai Turner but my guess is he'd cost a fortune though he is only 28 and has had a very healthy career. Signing him would elevate the OL greatly. But do you invest big money in an OG at this point or roll the dice? My thought is you stick with Hernandez who is cheap in comparison and upgrade via either UFA or the draft 1st round for OG.
The Athletic reported a month ago Turner was only seeking a deal in the $2-$3M range.
That isn't big money at all but, if accurate, tells you a little bit about what the NFL thinks of him since he hasn't signed with anyone.
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In comment 15280777 Jimmy Googs said:
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OP - who are the clear upgrades that are still available at Guard?
The top UFA guard is clearly Trai Turner but my guess is he'd cost a fortune though he is only 28 and has had a very healthy career. Signing him would elevate the OL greatly. But do you invest big money in an OG at this point or roll the dice? My thought is you stick with Hernandez who is cheap in comparison and upgrade via either UFA or the draft 1st round for OG.
The Athletic reported a month ago Turner was only seeking a deal in the $2-$3M range.
That isn't big money at all but, if accurate, tells you a little bit about what the NFL thinks of him since he hasn't signed with anyone.
Bottom line: can we upgrade OG right now outside of developing our own via this coaching staff? I'm leaning on we likely can't unless there is some kind of trade and those are very rare especially given the cap.
Thomas-Lemiuex-Gates-Hernandez-Peart - that is the starting line for opening day, barring injuries of course!
With Wiggins, Harrison and Fulton, the Giants have a lot of depth with players who have a lot of starting experience. Wiggins probably will be cut but Harrison is a real depth signing who has starts at center and has the size to play guard, unlike the last backup center. Fulton is pretty interesting because he has started at LG and RG, played for a couple of different coaching regimes, and may have been just a cap casualty at Houston.
Even discounting Slade, the Giants have 5 guys for 2 positions. With a new O-line coach again, the Giants need to see how things develop through camp before signing another. With the cap and the roster cutdown schedule the way it is, the week before final cutdown is about the right time to grab an upgrade free agent or trade a low-round draft pick for a potential cap casualty.
In my opinion, this line is staffed with good talent right now, we have a good coaching staff which is focused on that line like a laser, I think you have to make hay with this -- there is a cost to bringing in talent iby giving up picks (or a pick) -- you want to harvest more talent out the next draft which is supposed to be loaded
The current roster has 14 OLs. Since Slade is a G/T that has been used in OTAs as a T, then its likely that a G will be signed so that we have 6.
Having 15 OLs for training camp allows 3 full units along the line for practice.
I think it will happen, and the signing is more likely a younger unknown that the Giants feel has some potential (not to make the roster) to possibly make the practice squad.
I agree, it is time to start developing players from within. Most NFL lines are made up of what we call JAGs. Just average in the NFL is pretty good.
In my opinion, this line is staffed with good talent right now, we have a good coaching staff which is focused on that line like a laser, I think you have to make hay with this -- there is a cost to bringing in talent iby giving up picks (or a pick) -- you want to harvest more talent out the next draft which is supposed to be loaded
After our last couple of coaching staffs people tend to forget that developing players is an actual option…..
If Sale could put 2 guys from ULL in the NFL he can do something with the physical abilities our young guys have.
The current roster has 14 OLs. Since Slade is a G/T that has been used in OTAs as a T, then its likely that a G will be signed so that we have 6.
Having 15 OLs for training camp allows 3 full units along the line for practice.
I think it will happen, and the signing is more likely a younger unknown that the Giants feel has some potential (not to make the roster) to possibly make the practice squad.
However, I do wonder if a veteran of merit were to be released how motivated the Giants would be to spend and get him given the cap and current roster?
My fear with Lemiuex is pass protection. Its a legit fear. However, with a full training camp and the ability to review his tape from last year you hope he upgrades in that area enough to be "serviceable" (acceptable). I think both he and Thomas could provide us with a top run left option. Both guys are potential beasts run blocking wise.
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In comment 15280792 SGMen said:
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In comment 15280777 Jimmy Googs said:
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OP - who are the clear upgrades that are still available at Guard?
The top UFA guard is clearly Trai Turner but my guess is he'd cost a fortune though he is only 28 and has had a very healthy career. Signing him would elevate the OL greatly. But do you invest big money in an OG at this point or roll the dice? My thought is you stick with Hernandez who is cheap in comparison and upgrade via either UFA or the draft 1st round for OG.
The Athletic reported a month ago Turner was only seeking a deal in the $2-$3M range.
That isn't big money at all but, if accurate, tells you a little bit about what the NFL thinks of him since he hasn't signed with anyone.
Odd given his solid career? Perhaps he was hurt or has some undisclosed illness? On paper, Turner is an upgrade but what do I know outside of what I read?
Bottom line: can we upgrade OG right now outside of developing our own via this coaching staff? I'm leaning on we likely can't unless there is some kind of trade and those are very rare especially given the cap.
Thomas-Lemiuex-Gates-Hernandez-Peart - that is the starting line for opening day, barring injuries of course!
It's not odd at all. This has been discussed on here many times. His play has decreased each of the last 3 year and fell off a cliff last year. If you buy into what PFF is selling I think the only player that was worse than Turner last year was Lemieux. Turner is a name. If the price is right I am sure the Giants are looking into him but the Giants, imo, would only play him backup money to compete for a spot. He's not the player he once was.
Imo, they are giving these guys a chance to fail. If they don't like what they see during camp then that is when a move will be made whether it be a FA or a trade. We need to remember that we are up against the cap right now so fitting a $2 mil player is now wise move. See where your team is at. If a move needs to be made then make it when you have a better understanding where your team needs to improve. If they spend money on Turner, he sucks, Lemieux and Hernandez are kicking ass, and you encounter injuries at another position then you are fucked.
In terms of the “love” for Sale, try to remember how positive the feeling was at around this time last year when Colombo was signed. It was even more love.
I do like the idea of growing from within. Hernandez has ability he just isn't as good as we'd had hoped. Gates is going to be a stud OC in this league. Not a probowler but a lunch-pail ranked 10-12th kind of guy you watch. You have to like Thomas and Peart physically and with some of their experience last year coupled with a camp hopefully they really shoot up the charts. Lemiuex has nothing but upside in pass protect where he is limited physically perhaps but technique work may help.
I like Judge. I like this young team. Whether they gel or not remains to be seen.
Last season we were all concerned that the Giants didn't address the center position in the draft or free agency because they knew what they had in Gates.
Last season we were all concerned that the Giants didn't address the center position in the draft or free agency because they knew what they had in Gates.
The Giants have the youth with potential and again we just have to see in camp and especially during the early part of the season just how good these guys can be!
IF they’ve evaluated the raw talent correctly then it’s a coaching issue. They drafted Thomas/Peart to be bookend tackles for a decade. Gates ceiling is unlimited. ( He’s big, nasty athletic and smart) no reason he can’t become a top flight center.
Lemieux can get better at everything ands could be a long time fixture.
WH is the question. He’s never played RG and will be a free agent after the season.
1) Rob Sale, as a first time NFL coach will hit the ground running, working in offensive system that’s also new to him
2) The Giants drafted 3 starting caliber lineman in a single draft, and they will all play an order of magnitude better in their 2nd year
3) The last two years were an aberration for Hernandez, and at a new position he will blossom
I suspect the tune around week 4 will be something like: You couldn’t have expected 5 guys to gel, with no proven veterans, with a new coach, in their first year.
Last season we were all concerned that the Giants didn't address the center position in the draft or free agency because they knew what they had in Gates.
Ha -- not that I am trying to undermine your argument -- but Gettleman has already done that with his "Don't Sleep on Pio" act
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1) Rob Sale, as a first time NFL coach will hit the ground running, working in offensive system that’s also new to him
2) The Giants drafted 3 starting caliber lineman in a single draft, and they will all play an order of magnitude better in their 2nd year
3) The last two years were an aberration for Hernandez, and at a new position he will blossom
I suspect the tune around week 4 will be something like: You couldn’t have expected 5 guys to gel, with no proven veterans, with a new coach, in their first year.
I don’t think that many have expectations of the OL that are high. You don’t need a great OL, but you do need a competent one, or you’re sunk. The OL looked pretty competent last year in the second half of the year. Guard will definitely be a spot they look to upgrade very early next year.
If what they are going with in camp, that left side of the line is going to maul in run game. That’s certainly something we can work with. The interior pressure is going to be a big concern with Lemiuex, but the team has a real good defense and we aren’t going to be forced to be one dimensional too often. Any game we go down 2 TDs in the second half you can probably chalk as a loss, but how often are we going to be in that predicament?
Plus I think many are expecting Hernandez to bounce back and Peart to be good enough. COVID can’t be easy for guys that size and both their play really fell off when they got sick.
I tend to view the season as Coughlin did - over four, four game periods.
The first two quarters were a disaster, the third quarter was strong, and the fourth was another bad showing.
The Giants couldn’t pass protect or run block we’ll against the better teams on their schedule. They were held under 300 yards in three straight games, and 26 total points.
When Jones was banged up, and the Giants really needed to rely on their ground game, it went south. Jones being hurt was a great opportunity for the line to make a difference. That 1-3 showing to end the year was the reason two of those guys are gone.
Competent for me would be, can this line put the Giants in the position to win 9 games and have a fair shot at the playoffs.
For that outcome I believe Lemieux, Hernandez, and Peart will have to take big leaps forward. I don’t think that’s a high odds proposition.
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I don’t think that many have expectations of the OL that are high. You don’t need a great OL, but you do need a competent one, or you’re sunk. The OL looked pretty competent last year in the second half of the year. Guard will definitely be a spot they look to upgrade very early next year.
I tend to view the season as Coughlin did - over four, four game periods.
The first two quarters were a disaster, the third quarter was strong, and the fourth was another bad showing.
The Giants couldn’t pass protect or run block we’ll against the better teams on their schedule. They were held under 300 yards in three straight games, and 26 total points.
When Jones was banged up, and the Giants really needed to rely on their ground game, it went south. Jones being hurt was a great opportunity for the line to make a difference. That 1-3 showing to end the year was the reason two of those guys are gone.
Competent for me would be, can this line put the Giants in the position to win 9 games and have a fair shot at the playoffs.
For that outcome I believe Lemieux, Hernandez, and Peart will have to take big leaps forward. I don’t think that’s a high odds proposition.
Pinning the offensive woes on them in last 4 games isn’t applicable though. They were bad against the Cards, competent in Browns and Ravens game, and good against the Cowboys. Pinning the offensive woes on them with everything else going on isn’t close to accurately portraying how they did as a unit. Didn’t think the gameplan against Cards did them any favors either.
Against the Ravens Jones was pressured 20 times (42% of drop backs), sacked 6 times, hit another 5 times.
The Giants rushed for 54 total yards and the Ravens had 7 tackles for losses. The Giants were 1/10 on 3rd down.
The Ravens ate the Giants lunch on the line that game. The Giants got behind early, couldn’t run the ball for squat, and the Ravens beat Jones like a bag. That’s not competent in my view.
More development needed as we all know...
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Pinning the offensive woes on them in last 4 games isn’t applicable though. They were bad against the Cards, competent in Browns and Ravens game, and good against the Cowboys. Pinning the offensive woes on them with everything else going on isn’t close to accurately portraying how they did as a unit. Didn’t think the gameplan against Cards did them any favors either.
Against the Ravens Jones was pressured 20 times (42% of drop backs), sacked 6 times, hit another 5 times.
The Giants rushed for 54 total yards and the Ravens had 7 tackles for losses. The Giants were 1/10 on 3rd down.
The Ravens ate the Giants lunch on the line that game. The Giants got behind early, couldn’t run the ball for squat, and the Ravens beat Jones like a bag. That’s not competent in my view.
I saw a team with a QB that had very limited mobility and was forced to go one dimensional early. The defense didn’t hold their end of the bargain that game. They aren’t going to perform well anytime we need to go one dimensional. That’s my point. They run block well and pass block poorly, which is fine when you can stay balanced or focus on run game. They aren’t going to look good when we are playing from large deficits. I don’t fault them in that spot. With an improved team, we aren’t going to see them in that situation as much.
In my opinion, this line is staffed with good talent right now, we have a good coaching staff which is focused on that line like a laser, I think you have to make hay with this -- there is a cost to bringing in talent iby giving up picks (or a pick) -- you want to harvest more talent out the next draft which is supposed to be loaded