"The bottom line is that the Giants' offensive line is a massive question mark. They need their young players to develop and their veterans to provide career years just to rank in the middle of the pack for 2021"
didn’t add anyone of note and lost maybe their best lineman.
It’s not crazy to expect improvement from some of our young guys and to think that new coaching can make a real difference, but it’s not surprising that the national media is skeptical.
It’s def a real serious question mark and can completely torpedo another season if the unit doesn’t dramatically improve.
PFF uses PFF grades, obviously. All five starters graded poorly last year, for various reasons. Maybe later games should be weighted more heavily, but I'm not sure that would help Hernandez, Lemieux or Peart all that much. As for the veteran backups, we think of them as quality depth; but from PFF's perspective, Fulton was awful last year, and Solder and Harrison haven't been good for a long time. The younger backups are total unknowns. Add the absence of any OL draft picks, and you have a pretty grim picture based on PFF's metrics. Doesn't mean the line will stink, just that they will stink if PFF's grades are reasonable and the players continue to perform at their median level from the last year they played a meaningful number of snaps.
This is what I can't understand about our fanbase...
We have seen how a deficient OL can absolute destroy an offense for years now.
We know that at best, our OL is a big question mark.
Yet I see a lot of confidence for this year from the fans, and I don't understand it. Quite honestly I think the fans love the coach and that translates to optimism that everything on offense will be okay. Although I tend to be optimistic overall and I am a fan of our head coach and like what I saw from the team in his first year overall, the OL is something I am very concerned about and the biggest achilles heel on our team imo.
...Peart graded decently. Very small sample, though. Thomas graded OK, and showed fairly steady improvement. But man, PFF hates our interior line, especially if Fulton doesn't start.
The people who think it doesn’t start with the OL and know nothing about football will blame Jones.
Well, according to the rankings, Pittsburgh's OL was only "better" than ours at #31. So while Roeth was deemed to have had a bad year (for him), the Steelers still went 13-3 and he threw 33 TDS and only 10 INTs. And they were the worst rushing team in the NFL at only 85 yards/game. NYG was 19th in rushing per game at 115 yard/game.
Yes, the Steelers D were third in PPG allowed at 19.5, the Giants D was ninth at 22.3 PPG allowed per game.
So QB play still matters...even with poor OL play.
That, admittedly for myself and likely others, the glimmer of hope our OL was towards the end of the season was just that they encountered some banged up or less than stellar defenses?
Factors that are pro OL:
Completely new offensive system in '20
3/5 new players ('20)
coaches room turmoil
Neutral OL:
Significantly abbreviated workouts/zero preseason
Barkley is back?
anti OL:
net subtraction in '21 offseason
player progression is unpredictable
back half of schedule easier
Browns & Cards games were ugly
Does that sum it up? I can really see both sides on how there should and shouldn't be optimism for this group. I'm always hopeful though...
I know we are all assuming improved play but remove those rose colored glasses for a second.
Thomas (rising sophomore career perspective) - was not the best rookie OT last year despite being the first one picked. True he oozes potential but unless he gets stronger and improves his technique it's not unfair to suggest he could lead the league in pressures allowed again next year.
Lemieux (rising sophomore career perspective) - admittedly I think the o-line turned the corner last year when he replaced Hernandez at LG, but just like Thomas he needs to get bigger & improve technique.
Gates - (rising sophomore position perspective) sure he was underrated and over-preformed last year but drum-beat - needs to get stronger and improve technique.
Hernandez - (rising junior and 1st year at new position). Also exhibit A on why we should assume that a promising player will automatically improve each year. Cross apply this to every other lineman.
Peart - (rising sophomore) - why repeat myself
Bottom line: This line has no player who is an established NFL starter, it's so young. Each player must improve strength/technique and my experience watching the NFL for decades is that the odds 5 players all making a leap without any stagnation or regressions is not high. And can't be labeled as anything other than a question mark at this time.
Whether this analysis means the Giants oline is 32nd or not is irrelevant, the concerns listed to justify the ranking seem legit.
The people who think it doesn’t start with the OL and know nothing about football will blame Jones.
Well, according to the rankings, Pittsburgh's OL was only "better" than ours at #31. So while Roeth was deemed to have had a bad year (for him), the Steelers still went 13-3 and he threw 33 TDS and only 10 INTs. And they were the worst rushing team in the NFL at only 85 yards/game. NYG was 19th in rushing per game at 115 yard/game.
Yes, the Steelers D were third in PPG allowed at 19.5, the Giants D was ninth at 22.3 PPG allowed per game.
So QB play still matters...even with poor OL play.
I love how you conveniently left out the skill player comparison (ie, WR and TE's)
It couldn't have to do with the fact that affects your narrative, could it???
Hmmmm...
This perception that our OL was good down the stretch last year
is false. They were better at run blocking. But, they were not amazing and their pass protection was terrible, as it was all year, regardless of the lineup. The positives were Gates improved throughout the season to the point of becoming a pretty good OC by the end of the year. He was easily their best OL last year, but that really isn't saying much. The other is Thomas improved in the second half. But, he also still showed that he had plenty of room for improvement.
But it doesn’t go very far. The OL has to “show me” and everyone else that they can play. But they also have some good upside and some flexibility that this evaluation doesn’t reflect. I have no doubt Thomas will be a plus player this year. Gates is a legitimate NFL center who should also be better. Hernandez is a legitimate NFL player as well if an average one. Do we know about Lemieux and Peart. Not really. But we have vet backstops for them if they really fail to perform. We could field a decent OL with a couple of different lineups. Rate us 32nd. Means nothing until the bell rings.
No nothing pencil neck geeks who created their own metric system to CREATE relevancy for themselves. For instance, Nick Gates could bury his man leading to an 80 yard touchdown. BUT, if his hand placement and footwork weren’t what THEY consider textbook correct, he gets a bad grade on the rep.
Ignore them.
I
Bottom line: This line has no player who is an established NFL starter, it's so young.
This simply isn’t true. Hernandez is a legitimate NFL starter. Maybe a very average starter but one nevertheless. Gates also proved himself to be a legit NFL starter. Your assessment takes the absolute worst possible view on everyone and that’s not realistic.. Thomas, (on an injured foot) for instance, showed plenty to have a reasonably positive view of his upside. Are there questions. Sure, but yours is not a reasonable take.
I agree that depth is a concern in general. But I like our backups at OC and OG alot more than at OT. Hopefully Thomas and Peart both play well (which I actually expect) and stay healthy. But if 1 goes down for any period of time, my last memories of Solder are not good, and I have little reason to expect he'll be better after a year off and 2 years older.
So,(1) I hope we don't have to see much of him and (2) if we do, I hope he proves me wrong.
The people who think it doesn’t start with the OL and know nothing about football will blame Jones.
Well, according to the rankings, Pittsburgh's OL was only "better" than ours at #31. So while Roeth was deemed to have had a bad year (for him), the Steelers still went 13-3 and he threw 33 TDS and only 10 INTs. And they were the worst rushing team in the NFL at only 85 yards/game. NYG was 19th in rushing per game at 115 yard/game.
Yes, the Steelers D were third in PPG allowed at 19.5, the Giants D was ninth at 22.3 PPG allowed per game.
So QB play still matters...even with poor OL play.
Are you seriously comparing a Hall of Fame QB in his 17th year with the same head coach for his whole career with much better skill players to -a second year QB with a new head coach, new off coordinator, and shitty skill players? Ben also had a off coordinator on his 3rd or 4th year w the team as well.
Are you seriously comparing a Hall of Fame QB in his 17th year with the same head coach for his whole career with much better skill players to -a second year QB with a new head coach, new off coordinator, and shitty skill players? Ben also had a off coordinator on his 3rd or 4th year w the team as well.
Well, Roeth has had two HCs in his career. Not one.
I'm not comparing BR to Jones, per se. I'm making the point to others that a quality QB can help overcome less than ideal OL play.
Are you seriously comparing a Hall of Fame QB in his 17th year with the same head coach for his whole career with much better skill players to -a second year QB with a new head coach, new off coordinator, and shitty skill players? Ben also had a off coordinator on his 3rd or 4th year w the team as well.
Well, Roeth has had two HCs in his career. Not one.
I'm not comparing BR to Jones, per se. I'm making the point to others that a quality QB can help overcome less than ideal OL play.
and good coaching also makes a difference -- Pittsburgh nearly go into the playoffs without Ben
and Ben is no longer what he used to be
even so - how many superbowls did he win? I'm forgetting
I've said it before but the Giant line faced The Perfect Storm.
A center who'd never played the position, three rookies and a new system with no preseason. The loss of Saquon took away a threat and made it tougher. The bad year that Evan had contributed to inefficiencies, the lack of an effective receiving corp.
Simply having a year together AND a training camp will help.
The anticipated improvement in the receivers will help. Rudolph will help. Ditto Saquon and Even almost certainly will have a better year.
But the coaching staff has earned some trust. Last year they were quiet about a center and it turned out they knew something. In an off season that saw what can only be called "outstanding acquisitions" that spread over every unit save one, they stood still with the o line. I think that says that they've done their evaluation and the line is going to ok with what they have in hand.
We will see, but until proven otherwise, Judge and company have my trust (as well as my hopes).
Are you seriously comparing a Hall of Fame QB in his 17th year with the same head coach for his whole career with much better skill players to -a second year QB with a new head coach, new off coordinator, and shitty skill players? Ben also had a off coordinator on his 3rd or 4th year w the team as well.
Well, Roeth has had two HCs in his career. Not one.
I'm not comparing BR to Jones, per se. I'm making the point to others that a quality QB can help overcome less than ideal OL play.
I certainly think that the Giants OL was way worse than “less than ideal”.
I love how you conveniently left out the skill player comparison (ie, WR and TE's)
It couldn't have to do with the fact that affects your narrative, could it???
Hmmmm...
I always hear how great the Steeler skill players are. And then they leave Pittsburgh and they don't play as well as they did under BR.
So before you start canonizing this current group as something special, consider this history.
To be fair, most of the steelers skill players didn't really leave. Hines Ward was there forever as was Heath Miller. Santonio Holmes left and was unremarkable with the Jets, but he was also not a top WR with Pitt either. Mike Wallace left and actually did better in Miami. Even Antonio Brown left as a 30 year old. And he just won a Super Bowl.
Emmanuel Sanders was more productive after leaving. And Jerricho Cotchery was more productive before getting to Pitt and then after he left. Wheaton was a washout. As was Matavius Bryant.
Really, the only guy who really dropped off after leaving was Bell, and he sat out a season.
I wanted the best O-lineman available in the first round.
. I was happy with the pass rusher in rd 2. I really hope Toney is not a drama queen bust. The offensive line playing at a high level is the key to the whole season.
I wanted the best O-lineman available in the first round.
. I was happy with the pass rusher in rd 2. I really hope Toney is not a drama queen bust. The offensive line playing at a high level is the key to the whole season.
This. Gotta give them credit. They are total frauds But they've created a product the general football fans consume. In this case they may very well be correct but that doesn't change who they are. I love how they supposedly grade all the college football games too. They would need to employ God knows how many people to grade all the stuff they supposedly do
I have no idea....I do not know other teams OL, but if true
We should expect far better OL play across the NFL.
The Giants OL has been its Achilles.....but based on the last years 2nd half growth, the individual potential and the Hopes that the guards play become competent.....they will not play as the worse NFL OL
I always hear how great the Steeler skill players are. And then they leave Pittsburgh and they don't play as well as they did under BR.
So before you start canonizing this current group as something special, consider this history.
Do you have some examples of this?
Sure.
How has LeVeon Bell done since he left Pittsburgh?
Mike Wallace. He had back to back 1K receiving yards seasons with Pitt and scored 18 TDs over two seasons. And had his best YPC for those two years. After he left, he had one season with 1K yards and only one other season where he scored double digit TDs in a season. And he never got close to his YPC that he had in Pittsburgh.
Santonio Holmes. Best year in Pittsburgh was 79 catches, 1200+ yards, 8 TDs. And a SP MVP. After he left, the most catches he had was 52 and most yards was 750.
Martavis Bryant. Had several decent years in Pitt. Went to Oakland and did nothing. And his now out of the league.
had several "decent" years with the Steelers?? By that standard, Golden Tate has been a stud with the Giants!! You're standards are either intentionally lower for the opposition or you're just making shit up.
Bryant played three years for the Steelers and missed a year on suspension (I'm sure you wouldn't ding a Giant for that). In those three years, he started a total of 16 games. Never had more than 50 receptions and never hit 800 yards receiving. Heck, Shepard's worst season was still with 57 catches.
Unless they know for sure what each guys assignment was
on any given play, any grades are inherently flawed. Some are obvious, like an edge rusher against a tackle.
But I suspect there are plenty of times a guard blocks a guy, but it wasn't his correct assignment, leaving someone else unblocked.
These guys can give any grade they want to the guard in that scenario, but only the Giants staff can really grade if he did his job on the play
As for the rankings, meaningless chatter to drive clicks
After so many lousy years- why would you trust the Giants?
I think they will improve this year- 7-10. And with the draft picks next year I think we look better. But how much real trust can we have in their view of things? I have a bit of hope. But trust their grading after witnessing all this losing?
...with tires off a Big Wheel.
My concern isnt't the starting OL, which actually looks to be about the best the Giants have fielded in a decade - it's the depth.
It's a 5 man line, and they will get hurt. If they falter, Daniel Jones becomes a squirrel on the New Jersey Turnpike at rush hour.
It’s not crazy to expect improvement from some of our young guys and to think that new coaching can make a real difference, but it’s not surprising that the national media is skeptical.
It’s def a real serious question mark and can completely torpedo another season if the unit doesn’t dramatically improve.
We know that at best, our OL is a big question mark.
Yet I see a lot of confidence for this year from the fans, and I don't understand it. Quite honestly I think the fans love the coach and that translates to optimism that everything on offense will be okay. Although I tend to be optimistic overall and I am a fan of our head coach and like what I saw from the team in his first year overall, the OL is something I am very concerned about and the biggest achilles heel on our team imo.
So they just need their young players to develop. I would expect that at least to some extent.
Middle of the pack, here we come!
I think it’s more fair to say the line played well the third quarter of the season.
Reminds me a bit of the hyperbole of how well the offense played at the end of the 2018 season without Beckham and what that portended for 2019.
I remember Barkley getting killed behind the LOS early and well the massacre kept on going except for that short 3rd quarter 4 game stretch.
We should be better with a camp and experience under our belts. This is a young OL with veteran backups.
Well, according to the rankings, Pittsburgh's OL was only "better" than ours at #31. So while Roeth was deemed to have had a bad year (for him), the Steelers still went 13-3 and he threw 33 TDS and only 10 INTs. And they were the worst rushing team in the NFL at only 85 yards/game. NYG was 19th in rushing per game at 115 yard/game.
Yes, the Steelers D were third in PPG allowed at 19.5, the Giants D was ninth at 22.3 PPG allowed per game.
So QB play still matters...even with poor OL play.
Factors that are pro OL:
Completely new offensive system in '20
3/5 new players ('20)
coaches room turmoil
Neutral OL:
Significantly abbreviated workouts/zero preseason
Barkley is back?
anti OL:
net subtraction in '21 offseason
player progression is unpredictable
back half of schedule easier
Browns & Cards games were ugly
Does that sum it up? I can really see both sides on how there should and shouldn't be optimism for this group. I'm always hopeful though...
Thomas (rising sophomore career perspective) - was not the best rookie OT last year despite being the first one picked. True he oozes potential but unless he gets stronger and improves his technique it's not unfair to suggest he could lead the league in pressures allowed again next year.
Lemieux (rising sophomore career perspective) - admittedly I think the o-line turned the corner last year when he replaced Hernandez at LG, but just like Thomas he needs to get bigger & improve technique.
Gates - (rising sophomore position perspective) sure he was underrated and over-preformed last year but drum-beat - needs to get stronger and improve technique.
Hernandez - (rising junior and 1st year at new position). Also exhibit A on why we should assume that a promising player will automatically improve each year. Cross apply this to every other lineman.
Peart - (rising sophomore) - why repeat myself
Bottom line: This line has no player who is an established NFL starter, it's so young. Each player must improve strength/technique and my experience watching the NFL for decades is that the odds 5 players all making a leap without any stagnation or regressions is not high. And can't be labeled as anything other than a question mark at this time.
Whether this analysis means the Giants oline is 32nd or not is irrelevant, the concerns listed to justify the ranking seem legit.
Quote:
The people who think it doesn’t start with the OL and know nothing about football will blame Jones.
Well, according to the rankings, Pittsburgh's OL was only "better" than ours at #31. So while Roeth was deemed to have had a bad year (for him), the Steelers still went 13-3 and he threw 33 TDS and only 10 INTs. And they were the worst rushing team in the NFL at only 85 yards/game. NYG was 19th in rushing per game at 115 yard/game.
Yes, the Steelers D were third in PPG allowed at 19.5, the Giants D was ninth at 22.3 PPG allowed per game.
So QB play still matters...even with poor OL play.
I love how you conveniently left out the skill player comparison (ie, WR and TE's)
It couldn't have to do with the fact that affects your narrative, could it???
Hmmmm...
Ignore them.
+1, couldn't have said it any better.
Bottom line: This line has no player who is an established NFL starter, it's so young.
This simply isn’t true. Hernandez is a legitimate NFL starter. Maybe a very average starter but one nevertheless. Gates also proved himself to be a legit NFL starter. Your assessment takes the absolute worst possible view on everyone and that’s not realistic.. Thomas, (on an injured foot) for instance, showed plenty to have a reasonably positive view of his upside. Are there questions. Sure, but yours is not a reasonable take.
So,(1) I hope we don't have to see much of him and (2) if we do, I hope he proves me wrong.
Quote:
The people who think it doesn’t start with the OL and know nothing about football will blame Jones.
Well, according to the rankings, Pittsburgh's OL was only "better" than ours at #31. So while Roeth was deemed to have had a bad year (for him), the Steelers still went 13-3 and he threw 33 TDS and only 10 INTs. And they were the worst rushing team in the NFL at only 85 yards/game. NYG was 19th in rushing per game at 115 yard/game.
Yes, the Steelers D were third in PPG allowed at 19.5, the Giants D was ninth at 22.3 PPG allowed per game.
So QB play still matters...even with poor OL play.
Are you seriously comparing a Hall of Fame QB in his 17th year with the same head coach for his whole career with much better skill players to -a second year QB with a new head coach, new off coordinator, and shitty skill players? Ben also had a off coordinator on his 3rd or 4th year w the team as well.
I love how you conveniently left out the skill player comparison (ie, WR and TE's)
It couldn't have to do with the fact that affects your narrative, could it???
Hmmmm...
I always hear how great the Steeler skill players are. And then they leave Pittsburgh and they don't play as well as they did under BR.
So before you start canonizing this current group as something special, consider this history.
Are you seriously comparing a Hall of Fame QB in his 17th year with the same head coach for his whole career with much better skill players to -a second year QB with a new head coach, new off coordinator, and shitty skill players? Ben also had a off coordinator on his 3rd or 4th year w the team as well.
Well, Roeth has had two HCs in his career. Not one.
I'm not comparing BR to Jones, per se. I'm making the point to others that a quality QB can help overcome less than ideal OL play.
Quote:
Are you seriously comparing a Hall of Fame QB in his 17th year with the same head coach for his whole career with much better skill players to -a second year QB with a new head coach, new off coordinator, and shitty skill players? Ben also had a off coordinator on his 3rd or 4th year w the team as well.
Well, Roeth has had two HCs in his career. Not one.
I'm not comparing BR to Jones, per se. I'm making the point to others that a quality QB can help overcome less than ideal OL play.
and good coaching also makes a difference -- Pittsburgh nearly go into the playoffs without Ben
and Ben is no longer what he used to be
even so - how many superbowls did he win? I'm forgetting
A center who'd never played the position, three rookies and a new system with no preseason. The loss of Saquon took away a threat and made it tougher. The bad year that Evan had contributed to inefficiencies, the lack of an effective receiving corp.
Simply having a year together AND a training camp will help.
The anticipated improvement in the receivers will help. Rudolph will help. Ditto Saquon and Even almost certainly will have a better year.
But the coaching staff has earned some trust. Last year they were quiet about a center and it turned out they knew something. In an off season that saw what can only be called "outstanding acquisitions" that spread over every unit save one, they stood still with the o line. I think that says that they've done their evaluation and the line is going to ok with what they have in hand.
We will see, but until proven otherwise, Judge and company have my trust (as well as my hopes).
But let's say they don't pick up right where they left off (because that never happens) playing like they did in the last 8 games.
What teams in the league have demonstrably worse OLs than the Giants do?
Quote:
Are you seriously comparing a Hall of Fame QB in his 17th year with the same head coach for his whole career with much better skill players to -a second year QB with a new head coach, new off coordinator, and shitty skill players? Ben also had a off coordinator on his 3rd or 4th year w the team as well.
Well, Roeth has had two HCs in his career. Not one.
I'm not comparing BR to Jones, per se. I'm making the point to others that a quality QB can help overcome less than ideal OL play.
I certainly think that the Giants OL was way worse than “less than ideal”.
Quote:
I love how you conveniently left out the skill player comparison (ie, WR and TE's)
It couldn't have to do with the fact that affects your narrative, could it???
Hmmmm...
I always hear how great the Steeler skill players are. And then they leave Pittsburgh and they don't play as well as they did under BR.
So before you start canonizing this current group as something special, consider this history.
To be fair, most of the steelers skill players didn't really leave. Hines Ward was there forever as was Heath Miller. Santonio Holmes left and was unremarkable with the Jets, but he was also not a top WR with Pitt either. Mike Wallace left and actually did better in Miami. Even Antonio Brown left as a 30 year old. And he just won a Super Bowl.
Emmanuel Sanders was more productive after leaving. And Jerricho Cotchery was more productive before getting to Pitt and then after he left. Wheaton was a washout. As was Matavius Bryant.
Really, the only guy who really dropped off after leaving was Bell, and he sat out a season.
This. Gotta give them credit. They are total frauds But they've created a product the general football fans consume. In this case they may very well be correct but that doesn't change who they are. I love how they supposedly grade all the college football games too. They would need to employ God knows how many people to grade all the stuff they supposedly do
The Giants OL has been its Achilles.....but based on the last years 2nd half growth, the individual potential and the Hopes that the guards play become competent.....they will not play as the worse NFL OL
Quote:
I love how you conveniently left out the skill player comparison (ie, WR and TE's)
It couldn't have to do with the fact that affects your narrative, could it???
Hmmmm...
I always hear how great the Steeler skill players are. And then they leave Pittsburgh and they don't play as well as they did under BR.
So before you start canonizing this current group as something special, consider this history.
Do you have some examples of this?
I always hear how great the Steeler skill players are. And then they leave Pittsburgh and they don't play as well as they did under BR.
So before you start canonizing this current group as something special, consider this history.
Do you have some examples of this?
Sure.
How has LeVeon Bell done since he left Pittsburgh?
Mike Wallace. He had back to back 1K receiving yards seasons with Pitt and scored 18 TDs over two seasons. And had his best YPC for those two years. After he left, he had one season with 1K yards and only one other season where he scored double digit TDs in a season. And he never got close to his YPC that he had in Pittsburgh.
Santonio Holmes. Best year in Pittsburgh was 79 catches, 1200+ yards, 8 TDs. And a SP MVP. After he left, the most catches he had was 52 and most yards was 750.
Martavis Bryant. Had several decent years in Pitt. Went to Oakland and did nothing. And his now out of the league.
The exception is probably Emanuel Sanders.
Bryant played three years for the Steelers and missed a year on suspension (I'm sure you wouldn't ding a Giant for that). In those three years, he started a total of 16 games. Never had more than 50 receptions and never hit 800 yards receiving. Heck, Shepard's worst season was still with 57 catches.
But I suspect there are plenty of times a guard blocks a guy, but it wasn't his correct assignment, leaving someone else unblocked.
These guys can give any grade they want to the guard in that scenario, but only the Giants staff can really grade if he did his job on the play
As for the rankings, meaningless chatter to drive clicks
But I suspect there are plenty of times a guard blocks a guy, but it wasn't his correct assignment, leaving someone else unblocked.
These guys can give any grade they want to the guard in that scenario, but only the Giants staff can really grade if he did his job on the play
As for the rankings, meaningless chatter to drive clicks
After so many lousy years- why would you trust the Giants?
I think they will improve this year- 7-10. And with the draft picks next year I think we look better. But how much real trust can we have in their view of things? I have a bit of hope. But trust their grading after witnessing all this losing?