"The bottom line is that the Giants' offensive line is a massive question mark. They need their young players to develop and their veterans to provide career years just to rank in the middle of the pack for 2021"
now, PFF is correct. I do not like PFF, but the Giants line has a lot to prove. We saw it in spurts last year. We also saw them play poorly.
If the oline is merely average, the offense will be pretty decent.=, but they still need to upgrade to average.
We've had a bad line for years. It's not like we earned our stripes last year with a line that let our QBs throw for fewer than 15 TDs. This is a big, big year for a lot of guys. Thomas needs to show progress. Hernandez needs to earn a second contract. Gates might be the surest thing, and he had to settle in last year. This is a big year for him to solidify himself as a good center. All those other second year OL.
This isn't a surprise that PFF is taking its shots at the line. But now let's prove them wrong on the field.
We've had a bad line for years. It's not like we earned our stripes last year with a line that let our QBs throw for fewer than 15 TDs. This is a big, big year for a lot of guys. Thomas needs to show progress. Hernandez needs to earn a second contract. Gates might be the surest thing, and he had to settle in last year. This is a big year for him to solidify himself as a good center. All those other second year OL.
This isn't a surprise that PFF is taking its shots at the line. But now let's prove them wrong on the field.
I did think Thomas proved it in the second half of the season, but they do half to prove the right side of the line can get it done. But really? Not one other team has a worse outlook at that position?
RE: This is what I can't understand about our fanbase...
We have seen how a deficient OL can absolute destroy an offense for years now.
We know that at best, our OL is a big question mark.
Yet I see a lot of confidence for this year from the fans, and I don't understand it. Quite honestly I think the fans love the coach and that translates to optimism that everything on offense will be okay. Although I tend to be optimistic overall and I am a fan of our head coach and like what I saw from the team in his first year overall, the OL is something I am very concerned about and the biggest achilles heel on our team imo.
Very well said Dan. The coach/optimism connection is real. We often see the sentence, "I believe in Judge" on this site. That's fine and nothing against anyone who feels that way. But to me, Joe Judge and the Giant coaching staff have a lot to prove. I'm hopeful Joe Judge can become a good head coach. However, to this point, there's nothing I've seen that tells me this coaching staff has the ability to turn an average or sub par unit into a strength through their teaching/coaching ability. Might they improve those units, sure that's a possibility but they are not miracle workers.
RE: RE: This is what I can't understand about our fanbase...
We have seen how a deficient OL can absolute destroy an offense for years now.
We know that at best, our OL is a big question mark.
Yet I see a lot of confidence for this year from the fans, and I don't understand it. Quite honestly I think the fans love the coach and that translates to optimism that everything on offense will be okay. Although I tend to be optimistic overall and I am a fan of our head coach and like what I saw from the team in his first year overall, the OL is something I am very concerned about and the biggest achilles heel on our team imo.
Very well said Dan. The coach/optimism connection is real. We often see the sentence, "I believe in Judge" on this site. That's fine and nothing against anyone who feels that way. But to me, Joe Judge and the Giant coaching staff have a lot to prove. I'm hopeful Joe Judge can become a good head coach. However, to this point, there's nothing I've seen that tells me this coaching staff has the ability to turn an average or sub par unit into a strength through their teaching/coaching ability. Might they improve those units, sure that's a possibility but they are not miracle workers.
Actually, the proof is in what other teams have done. I have said it several times before - most teams have JAGs on the oline. Very few have multiple superstars - Dallas did for a while. Most teams have one very good olineman and the rest are just good players. The key to the offensive line is getting competent linemen and having them work together. How many times have we seen massive injuries to good lines and the replacements come in and play as if they were the starter. That key is coaching. For the Giants it is Sale and the assistants Judge has brought in(Flaherty et al). Yes the rookies and Gates needed to get stronger and dial up their technique. But it will be teaching those techniques and learning to play together. Sounds easy, it is not.
School is still out.
Let me know where PFF ranks the Giants O-Line in February.
56% catch rate with Pitt, bad route runner, really only fought for some jump balls on occasion if he felt like it (his rookie year but that's pretty much it). He then got injured and then career over due to substance abuse.
Really bad example for this exercise.
RE: RE: Unless they know for sure what each guys assignment was
After so many lousy years- why would you trust the Giants?
Exactly how many years has JJ and his OL coaches been coaching the Giants?
How many years has THIS OL been together?
What exactly do the years 2012-2019 have to do with 2021? Pretty close to absolutely nothing, because: different coaching staff, different players, different decision makers picking the players, etc.
You can dwell on 2012-2019, if you want. I'm not bc those years are completely irrelevant.
had several "decent" years with the Steelers?? By that standard, Golden Tate has been a stud with the Giants!! You're standards are either intentionally lower for the opposition or you're just making shit up.
Bryant played three years for the Steelers and missed a year on suspension (I'm sure you wouldn't ding a Giant for that). In those three years, he started a total of 16 games. Never had more than 50 receptions and never hit 800 yards receiving. Heck, Shepard's worst season was still with 57 catches.
I said decent. Not great. And for a third/fourth option Bryant's output was indeed decent for Pitt.
In '14, he had 28 catches for 500 yards, a 20+YPC, and 8 TDs. That's not a decent year for a third/fourth option?
In '15, he had 50 catches for 765 yards, 15+YPC, and 6 more TDs. That's not decent for a third/fourth option?
In, '17, after the suspension, he had 50 catches for another 500+ yards, 12+ YPC, and three TDs.
So in three years as the Roeth's third/fourth WR, MB had 17 TDs and averaged 42 catches per year, 700+ yards in total receiving yards at 15YPC.
And then when Bryant left and went to Oakland, and he didn't have the greatness of BR to throw to him, his production plummeted.
So, yes, MB was a decent player.
And, lastly, your comp to Tate makes no sense because Tate was essentially a starter.
as a starter and only was a 3rd/4th option because he kept getting suspended and missed games. In 2014, he was behind Antonio Brown. He ended up getting surpassed by Markus Wheaton because of getting in trouble.
In 2015, he was the WR2 behind Brown again.
In 2016, he was suspended and the WR2 was Eli Rogers who did little
In 2017, he was the WR2 to start and lost the job to JuJu midway through the season.
Again - what about that is "decent"?? He was the starter and put up sub-par numbers - something you wouldn't call decent for any Giant player.
Par for the course.
RE: RE: Unless they know for sure what each guys assignment was
on any given play, any grades are inherently flawed. Some are obvious, like an edge rusher against a tackle.
But I suspect there are plenty of times a guard blocks a guy, but it wasn't his correct assignment, leaving someone else unblocked.
These guys can give any grade they want to the guard in that scenario, but only the Giants staff can really grade if he did his job on the play
As for the rankings, meaningless chatter to drive clicks
After so many lousy years- why would you trust the Giants?
I think they will improve this year- 7-10. And with the draft picks next year I think we look better. But how much real trust can we have in their view of things? I have a bit of hope. But trust their grading after witnessing all this losing?
Reading comprehension, compadre. All I said was the Giants know what a guy’s assignment was on the play called, PFF doesn’t
in the second half of the season and hope it carries over to beginning of 2021. Hernandez making the move over to RG is interesting, perhaps he can find his footing there after not really improving past his rookie season.
I don't give a shit about lagging variables. They've captured the past, not future performance.
Andrew Thomas was the #4 overall pick and figured things out last year. He'll play up to that draft spot this year from week 1. I'm not sure I'd trade Gates for any C in the league right now.
We kicked the Cowboys and Eagles ass up front last year and the vaunted Washington DL didn't do much either. Let's give a little credit. They are not the worst OL in the league right now, not even close.
You feel Gates is the top Center in the entire NFL?
After so many lousy years- why would you trust the Giants?
Exactly how many years has JJ and his OL coaches been coaching the Giants?
How many years has THIS OL been together?
What exactly do the years 2012-2019 have to do with 2021? Pretty close to absolutely nothing, because: different coaching staff, different players, different decision makers picking the players, etc.
You can dwell on 2012-2019, if you want. I'm not bc those years are completely irrelevant.
You mean Dave Gettleman had no input and has no input?
You mean there is not one single scout/GM or "owner" involved in any indirect or direct decision? Mara has no input on draft picks and no vison on how he'd like to see them play and at times the type of draft picks Giants are "encouraged" to make or not make?
And while I like Judge too- - can you tell me how many Super Bowls he has left the Giants to? How many layoff victories? How many playoff appearances?
No offense to you- but you and posters like you - want to tell me things but you show me nothing other than Cherry Pick a few games and disregard the other parts of the season.
I'll just add - I am rooting for you. You seem very confident in the giants so I hope you're not frustrated with me. - Instead you much feel psyched that there are a lot of suckers out there betting against the Giants to win only 7 games. SO tell me how much money did you put down for the Giants and the over? - $500,000? Whatever-- I hope you win. And anyone on here who bet Giants to lose more than 10 I hope they wind up broke. SO tell me- I'm rooting for you.
But if you haven't put your money where you mouth is- this just tells me you just want to fight. I didn't bet against the Giants this year. But I haven't bet on them either.
You make no sense. Why the flying fuck should the other poster “put his money where his mouth is” and put down $500,000 on the over when your ass isn’t willing to put your money where your mouth is in the other direction?
He’s not allowed to have an opinion unless he’s willing to put up a half million but the same doesn’t apply to you? Absolutely ridiculous. Such a clown show.
I'm probably laying a G on the Giants to cover the over
I loathe betting preseason overs, but the perception of this team is just off. They think DJ is trash because of his stats last year and the OL is garbage. Personally, I think the defense right now is enough to get us to 7 wins even if we trotted that garbage offense we had last year. It's not and Saquon is back. I think that's the floor unless they lose DJ for an extended bout (gotta factor he's probably going to miss 2 games)
as a starter and only was a 3rd/4th option because he kept getting suspended and missed games. In 2014, he was behind Antonio Brown. He ended up getting surpassed by Markus Wheaton because of getting in trouble.
In 2015, he was the WR2 behind Brown again.
In 2016, he was suspended and the WR2 was Eli Rogers who did little
In 2017, he was the WR2 to start and lost the job to JuJu midway through the season.
Again - what about that is "decent"?? He was the starter and put up sub-par numbers - something you wouldn't call decent for any Giant player.
Par for the course.
For the number of games played, the total TDs scored, the # of catches, and the YPC, indeed, the word decent applies to Bryant's production.
I'm not saying very good, great or even Canton level production. Just decent.
As a helpful reminder, this from Merriam-Webster
Decent: fairly good : adequate, satisfactory
Hope that helps.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Unless they know for sure what each guys assignment was
And while I like Judge too- - can you tell me how many Super Bowls he has left the Giants to? How many layoff victories? How many playoff appearances?
This is a asinine statement. I wasn't even alive yet, but the parallels to the Parcels era seem relevant. How many wins did he have, how many Super Bowls, how many playoffs appearances. I'd imagine the vibe around Parcells is the same as Judge, things just feel different now and he's put his stamp on the team.
Expecting first-year results with a roster that had garbage at WR, no pass rushers, an extremely young line that's a work in progress, a second-year QB learning a new offense and having clear coaching points going into the season, and a COVID offseason to boot. The fact this team has been more competitive than it's been since that one off in 2016 doesn't mean anything? The expectations are ridiculous. I imagine more when this team goes 1 and done in playoffs due to lack of experience.
Things don't happen overnight. The Bucs seem to be the exception because they added some good talent to a good roster and replaced their QB who was single-handedly losing games, season in season out. I watched Jameis a lot because I live here and I think Darnold takes the same route. The exact same QB he was in college with no growth.
There was enough there with Jameis you hoped he'd put it together, but he never did. That's why I'm excited about DJ, I saw growth even though it didn't show up on the stat sheet. Not as confident with Eli (thought he was 100% the franchise QB after his second year), but he's shown enough growth to me that he puts it together. A guy that's going to get better every year and not stagnate.
Barkley on his own doesn't make the line better. Behind a subpar line Barkley had a ridiculous amount of < 2 yard carries his first two years in the league. He needs the line to play better.
The Giants are asking 4 of their starters to do something they've never done before -- play 16 games of league average NFL football.
People compare Jones to BR? You see comparisons to Brady and Rogers in others. Pretty stupid comparing a two year QB to these guys. Rogers sat his first two years. Brady after sitting his first year stepped into a team with a top 3 D and very good running game let alone having BB as his coach. BR’s first two years had the best D, ruining game and OlL in the league. If your gonna compare be fair. I think Jones has a lot to prove but he has been dealt tough circumstances and that experience hopefully is a blessing to look back at.
The ranking of the OL is fine. I think they still have some stinkers individually and as a group but the trend will be to significant positive results. The key will be winning 1st down more. Everyone will benefit. Don’t underestimate Sale. I think this coach will be more than just a good OL coach.
Posters try to compare Jones to almost anybody they can
on this site in an effort to meet their intended purpose...whatever that may be at the time.
Eli, Tannehill, Darnold and Josh Allen seem to be the most prevalent from my memory. Not surprised others have branched off to Big Ben, Rodgers and Brady as that only seems par for course here.
However, it usually only winds up creating a larger differential between the point they are trying to make and the point they actually make...
Barkley on his own doesn't make the line better. Behind a subpar line Barkley had a ridiculous amount of < 2 yard carries his first two years in the league. He needs the line to play better.
The Giants are asking 4 of their starters to do something they've never done before -- play 16 games of league average NFL football.
You can't honestly say that the line looked the same first eight weeks (and awful when Saquon was in, turned a corner in that Rams game) as it did the last 8 weeks. It's probably one of the youngest lines in the league. Whats more likely, the play from the first 8 to show up or the last?
Barkley on his own doesn't make the line better. Behind a subpar line Barkley had a ridiculous amount of < 2 yard carries his first two years in the league. He needs the line to play better.
The Giants are asking 4 of their starters to do something they've never done before -- play 16 games of league average NFL football.
You can't honestly say that the line looked the same first eight weeks (and awful when Saquon was in, turned a corner in that Rams game) as it did the last 8 weeks. It's probably one of the youngest lines in the league. Whats more likely, the play from the first 8 to show up or the last?
Where do you come up with some of the shit you post? How did you read my post and come up with that reply?
It’s like you have hat full of exaggerations and loosely related replies you pull from at random.
Barkley on his own doesn't make the line better. Behind a subpar line Barkley had a ridiculous amount of < 2 yard carries his first two years in the league. He needs the line to play better.
The Giants are asking 4 of their starters to do something they've never done before -- play 16 games of league average NFL football.
You can't honestly say that the line looked the same first eight weeks (and awful when Saquon was in, turned a corner in that Rams game) as it did the last 8 weeks. It's probably one of the youngest lines in the league. Whats more likely, the play from the first 8 to show up or the last?
Where do you come up with some of the shit you post? How did you read my post and come up with that reply?
It’s like you have hat full of exaggerations and loosely related replies you pull from at random.
You are the one that is going back two years acting like its pertinent what goes on next year. Please keep the attacks to the minimum, I do respect you as a poster opposed to some of the other negative nellies here. Personally, I look at how a very young offensive line performed in their later half of the year and want to extrapolate that forward. Is there something wrong with that?
I'm not a huge fan of Hernandez and think we should move on, but he was clearly a different player after he got Covid as well. Can't be easy for those big guys. The bigger you get, the more muscle mass you have, and the more water just drains out of you. Hangovers probably brutal for those guys if they aren't drinking beer.
I think the line was moderately better as the year went on — but I also think that was in part due to solid but unspectacular play by Zeitler, and at least in part by continuity between Fleming and Zeitler.
I think the line was moderately better as the year went on — but I also think that was in part due to solid but unspectacular play by Zeitler, and at least in part by continuity between Fleming and Zeitler.
Completely fair. Honestly, on the flip side of that it drives me crazy just how bad Lemiuex was in pass protection. He might have been the worst guard in the league. However, unless Barkley gets hurt this year (which based on his time in his league is a distinct possibility) I think they can work around it. Personally, I think they were so good at run blocking last year they'll probably be able to work around it anyway.
Feels weird because I was a Gallman guy since he got drafted and didn't understand why he didn't get more burn, but in extensive playing time I see why he didn't. Our line blocked really well for run game last year, but our backs were straight garbage. People here sing Morris praises and he def wasn't in top 100 back, might not even be top 200. All people see is the yards per carry, and not what happened to make it.
IMO, Saquon would have ran for over 6 last year and to me the splits between him and Gallman through their Giants career prove that. I mean all of a sudden Gallman starts running for 1.5 ypc more than his career and its him? Yeah it was the OL and Barkley hasn't had a taste. He's salivating right now I guarantee it.
I think the line was moderately better as the year went on — but I also think that was in part due to solid but unspectacular play by Zeitler, and at least in part by continuity between Fleming and Zeitler.
Completely fair. Honestly, on the flip side of that it drives me crazy just how bad Lemiuex was in pass protection. He might have been the worst guard in the league. However, unless Barkley gets hurt this year (which based on his time in his league is a distinct possibility) I think they can work around it. Personally, I think they were so good at run blocking last year they'll probably be able to work around it anyway.
Feels weird because I was a Gallman guy since he got drafted and didn't understand why he didn't get more burn, but in extensive playing time I see why he didn't. Our line blocked really well for run game last year, but our backs were straight garbage. People here sing Morris praises and he def wasn't in top 100 back, might not even be top 200. All people see is the yards per carry, and not what happened to make it.
IMO, Saquon would have ran for over 6 last year and to me the splits between him and Gallman through their Giants career prove that. I mean all of a sudden Gallman starts running for 1.5 ypc more than his career and its him? Yeah it was the OL and Barkley hasn't had a taste. He's salivating right now I guarantee it.
Lemiuex wasa train wreck in pass protection and I believe he did grade one of the league's worst. The bright side is he was a rookie 5th round pick with no real camp so the only place he can go is UP UP and UP (hopefully) cause he can't maintain that level of play and stay a starter. No chance. Hopefully a year in the weight room and lots of technique work will elevate him to serviceable at least.
The continuity in the run game traditionally comes along more quickly — if Barkley comes out strong — I can see the Giants grabbing a few games early.
If Barkley comes out rusty, or has a set back, I think things fall apart dramatically.
I think the odds are extremely low all of the new variables come together early enough to really protect Jones. And if the Giants are going to win 8 or 9 games next year, they have to be able to protect Jones a lot, not just marginally better.
I think it’s a huge crapshoot. I’m surprised Judge thinks this is a winning formula.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Unless they know for sure what each guys assignment was
And while I like Judge too- - can you tell me how many Super Bowls he has left the Giants to? How many layoff victories? How many playoff appearances?
This is a asinine statement. I wasn't even alive yet, but the parallels to the Parcels era seem relevant.
The asinine statements are just coming from you. The point of my comment is that Judge hasn't accomplished nothing yet.
Odd that you'd mention Parcells. He's the exact opposite of what you're portraying. First off he frequent comments that "You are what your record says you are."
And to further that Parcells was known as button-pusher known to keep pushing his players more and more. Did you know he completely changed his coaching demeanor after his 1st year? He did it in part because he knew his ass was close to getting fired. Not only was the GM considering dumping him but fans back then had recently seen their team win a playoff game 2 years prior and weren't about to accept lousy football any more.
That's why you heard chants that 1st Parcells season "We want Madden!" Why do you think that was??? Because fans back then were demanding. Everyone was fed up. When are you and many others on here going to get fed up?
Now fast-forward to this past year leading into this year. What do we have? Fans like you. Fans that cheer 6-10. Hey why don't you go down the field and give all the players a hug? Instead of getting pissy with me- when are some of you going to grow a spine and start demanding some success or at least not be such wimpy homers? 6-10 sucks. My Sunday's have been miserable. Yours hasn't?
Seeing how YOU were the one that brought up Parcells - let's reiterate again what he used to say - and not the wimpy excuses many fans on here try to pass on- "You are what your record says you are." - Joe Judge- you are what your record says you are. - Let's hope you do better. Posters like you want to tell me that the Giants are much more than what I think of 7-10. Well - show me.
Hey if you are so positive on the team - I hope you gamble and win 1million. I want you to win. Best of luck for you and anyone else who has.
The Giants invested a lot in the offensive skill positions
and are really banking on the Oline to not sink the ship. Which, for a guy like Jones who has historically bad ball security seems like a terrible idea to me.
This site has become exhausting with the amount of delusional faith people want to put in a regime that merely showed signs of not being completely incompetent last year. And for the record it was a breath of fresh air to see how they maneuvered in the draft this year.
I loved the trade back but the little time I spent reading on here there seems to be again, a weird amount of attention paid to DG evolving and not the obvious power shift to New England types. It's good, but I give DG very little credit other than getting out of the way. (Probably, based on what some insiders have said forced out of the way while being allowed to maintain some dignity)
I hope this risk made with the line where they spent a first round pick on a WR and a huge FA contract for a WR and no real additional resources pays off for them. To me I can't fathom all they invested this offseason wanting to not have failsafes upon failsafes for a line that has pretty much been a standout bad unit on a standout bad team for longer than I care to remember. I just hope if it doesn't work out management gets strung up for risking season after season on this same mistake, but I doubt it.
You make no sense. Why the flying fuck should the other poster “put his money where his mouth is” and put down $500,000 on the over when your ass isn’t willing to put your money where your mouth is in the other direction?
He’s not allowed to have an opinion unless he’s willing to put up a half million but the same doesn’t apply to you? Absolutely ridiculous. Such a clown show.
Hey Big blue - I've posted on here previously - I said 7-10. Where is my "obvious" gambling move?
I don't have much of a play at 7-10, do I? You tell me where my obvious gambling move is.
Posters that have criticized me to make it sound like we are going to MUCH BETTER than 7-10 (i.e. imply/suggest that it's pretty obvious we will be much better.). So tell me what I can do as a pretty obvious bet?
If the Giants are going to be close to 7-10 then what have I said that is so far off from a 7-10 type team? A 7-10 team is a bad team, right?
Me asking him to put his money where his mouth is -- while saying I want him to win a ton of money- is that bad and you are interpreting this in some manner that I am not allowing him to express his opinion? I want him to win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I want you to win!!!! I want us to go 17-0 - win the Super Bowl - all unlikely. These arguments are fun but it is nothing nothing nothing to Football season. You tell me a good way to win some obvious money - I'll give it a shot. If I think Giants OL is very good why wouldn't I be all over betting on the Giants?
PFF had the Giants ranked #31 at end of last year so
This site has become exhausting with the amount of delusional faith people want to put in a regime that merely showed signs of not being completely incompetent last year.
Wouldn't trade Gates for another center in this league?!
The homerism displayed on this site never ceases to amaze me
The bizarre takes on both sides are frustrating to read here. And it usually obscures the rational discussion. The giants have not had a good OL. They have young players who have the potential to improve and build a strong foundation. Calling the players on the line incompetent or calling them Pro Bowlers adds nothing.
Wouldn't trade Gates for another center in this league?!
The homerism displayed on this site never ceases to amaze me
The bizarre takes on both sides are frustrating to read here. And it usually obscures the rational discussion. The giants have not had a good OL. They have young players who have the potential to improve and build a strong foundation. Calling the players on the line incompetent or calling them Pro Bowlers adds nothing.
exactly right. I do think they have some legit guys on the OL with a real chance to be an effective unit. It's been a long time since I've thought that. I think Thomas was a legit starting LT by the end of last season. Peart seemed to be coming on before he got sick. Gates looks to be legit. Gs are the question. Will Lemieux be able to become competent at pass blocking, and can Hernandez become an effective RG (or Fulton)? I don't think Solder plays unless Peart shows that he can't.
If Peart isn't able to show that he can handle Right Tackle
and the Giants have to turn to Solder then things will get bumpy. That, in combination with suspect Guard play, could put the team behind the eight-ball before midseason.
Wouldn't trade Gates for another center in this league?!
The homerism displayed on this site never ceases to amaze me
The bizarre takes on both sides are frustrating to read here. And it usually obscures the rational discussion. The giants have not had a good OL. They have young players who have the potential to improve and build a strong foundation. Calling the players on the line incompetent or calling them Pro Bowlers adds nothing.
I'm saying Andrew Thomas will be a Pro Bowl LT this year. He was the #4 overall pick, and those are the expectations. I thought he showed flashes of dominant play last year in both the run & pass game. He puts it all together - yes - Pro Bowl.
As per Nick Gates - I was blown away by his play last year after a terrible start. Call me a homer all you want, I think you'll be eating those words this year. He is a big time C. I'm not going to act like I know how good every C in the league is, but I wouldn't give up Gates right now. 100% satisfied with his play.
I'm saying Andrew Thomas will be a Pro Bowl LT this year. He was the #4 overall pick, and those are the expectations. I thought he showed flashes of dominant play last year in both the run & pass game. He puts it all together - yes - Pro Bowl.
As per Nick Gates - I was blown away by his play last year after a terrible start. Call me a homer all you want, I think you'll be eating those words this year. He is a big time C. I'm not going to act like I know how good every C in the league is, but I wouldn't give up Gates right now. 100% satisfied with his play.
Thomas should take a big leap this year. He had no camp last year and was thrown into the fire. He improved as the season moved along which is all you can ask.
Gates is going to be a solid NFL OC. Solid.
I also like Peart to hold his own at RT.
We'll see.
If the oline is merely average, the offense will be pretty decent.=, but they still need to upgrade to average.
We'll see.
Wait, which is the bulls__t on the shingle?
This isn't a surprise that PFF is taking its shots at the line. But now let's prove them wrong on the field.
This isn't a surprise that PFF is taking its shots at the line. But now let's prove them wrong on the field.
I did think Thomas proved it in the second half of the season, but they do half to prove the right side of the line can get it done. But really? Not one other team has a worse outlook at that position?
We know that at best, our OL is a big question mark.
Yet I see a lot of confidence for this year from the fans, and I don't understand it. Quite honestly I think the fans love the coach and that translates to optimism that everything on offense will be okay. Although I tend to be optimistic overall and I am a fan of our head coach and like what I saw from the team in his first year overall, the OL is something I am very concerned about and the biggest achilles heel on our team imo.
Very well said Dan. The coach/optimism connection is real. We often see the sentence, "I believe in Judge" on this site. That's fine and nothing against anyone who feels that way. But to me, Joe Judge and the Giant coaching staff have a lot to prove. I'm hopeful Joe Judge can become a good head coach. However, to this point, there's nothing I've seen that tells me this coaching staff has the ability to turn an average or sub par unit into a strength through their teaching/coaching ability. Might they improve those units, sure that's a possibility but they are not miracle workers.
Quote:
We have seen how a deficient OL can absolute destroy an offense for years now.
We know that at best, our OL is a big question mark.
Yet I see a lot of confidence for this year from the fans, and I don't understand it. Quite honestly I think the fans love the coach and that translates to optimism that everything on offense will be okay. Although I tend to be optimistic overall and I am a fan of our head coach and like what I saw from the team in his first year overall, the OL is something I am very concerned about and the biggest achilles heel on our team imo.
Very well said Dan. The coach/optimism connection is real. We often see the sentence, "I believe in Judge" on this site. That's fine and nothing against anyone who feels that way. But to me, Joe Judge and the Giant coaching staff have a lot to prove. I'm hopeful Joe Judge can become a good head coach. However, to this point, there's nothing I've seen that tells me this coaching staff has the ability to turn an average or sub par unit into a strength through their teaching/coaching ability. Might they improve those units, sure that's a possibility but they are not miracle workers.
Actually, the proof is in what other teams have done. I have said it several times before - most teams have JAGs on the oline. Very few have multiple superstars - Dallas did for a while. Most teams have one very good olineman and the rest are just good players. The key to the offensive line is getting competent linemen and having them work together. How many times have we seen massive injuries to good lines and the replacements come in and play as if they were the starter. That key is coaching. For the Giants it is Sale and the assistants Judge has brought in(Flaherty et al). Yes the rookies and Gates needed to get stronger and dial up their technique. But it will be teaching those techniques and learning to play together. Sounds easy, it is not.
School is still out.
Exactly.
IIRC, wasn't the Giants OL ranked very poorly (by some org or so-called experts) around 2005/06?
Then they developed into a pretty good unit.
Wait, Pro Bowl LT? Are you talking about Solder? HAHAHAHAHAHA
Really bad example for this exercise.
After so many lousy years- why would you trust the Giants?
Exactly how many years has JJ and his OL coaches been coaching the Giants?
How many years has THIS OL been together?
What exactly do the years 2012-2019 have to do with 2021? Pretty close to absolutely nothing, because: different coaching staff, different players, different decision makers picking the players, etc.
You can dwell on 2012-2019, if you want. I'm not bc those years are completely irrelevant.
In the Super Bowl broke my heart.
Bryant played three years for the Steelers and missed a year on suspension (I'm sure you wouldn't ding a Giant for that). In those three years, he started a total of 16 games. Never had more than 50 receptions and never hit 800 yards receiving. Heck, Shepard's worst season was still with 57 catches.
I said decent. Not great. And for a third/fourth option Bryant's output was indeed decent for Pitt.
In '14, he had 28 catches for 500 yards, a 20+YPC, and 8 TDs. That's not a decent year for a third/fourth option?
In '15, he had 50 catches for 765 yards, 15+YPC, and 6 more TDs. That's not decent for a third/fourth option?
In, '17, after the suspension, he had 50 catches for another 500+ yards, 12+ YPC, and three TDs.
So in three years as the Roeth's third/fourth WR, MB had 17 TDs and averaged 42 catches per year, 700+ yards in total receiving yards at 15YPC.
And then when Bryant left and went to Oakland, and he didn't have the greatness of BR to throw to him, his production plummeted.
So, yes, MB was a decent player.
And, lastly, your comp to Tate makes no sense because Tate was essentially a starter.
In 2015, he was the WR2 behind Brown again.
In 2016, he was suspended and the WR2 was Eli Rogers who did little
In 2017, he was the WR2 to start and lost the job to JuJu midway through the season.
Again - what about that is "decent"?? He was the starter and put up sub-par numbers - something you wouldn't call decent for any Giant player.
Par for the course.
Quote:
on any given play, any grades are inherently flawed. Some are obvious, like an edge rusher against a tackle.
But I suspect there are plenty of times a guard blocks a guy, but it wasn't his correct assignment, leaving someone else unblocked.
These guys can give any grade they want to the guard in that scenario, but only the Giants staff can really grade if he did his job on the play
As for the rankings, meaningless chatter to drive clicks
After so many lousy years- why would you trust the Giants?
I think they will improve this year- 7-10. And with the draft picks next year I think we look better. But how much real trust can we have in their view of things? I have a bit of hope. But trust their grading after witnessing all this losing?
Reading comprehension, compadre. All I said was the Giants know what a guy’s assignment was on the play called, PFF doesn’t
Andrew Thomas was the #4 overall pick and figured things out last year. He'll play up to that draft spot this year from week 1. I'm not sure I'd trade Gates for any C in the league right now.
We kicked the Cowboys and Eagles ass up front last year and the vaunted Washington DL didn't do much either. Let's give a little credit. They are not the worst OL in the league right now, not even close.
Quote:
After so many lousy years- why would you trust the Giants?
Exactly how many years has JJ and his OL coaches been coaching the Giants?
How many years has THIS OL been together?
What exactly do the years 2012-2019 have to do with 2021? Pretty close to absolutely nothing, because: different coaching staff, different players, different decision makers picking the players, etc.
You can dwell on 2012-2019, if you want. I'm not bc those years are completely irrelevant.
You mean Dave Gettleman had no input and has no input?
You mean there is not one single scout/GM or "owner" involved in any indirect or direct decision? Mara has no input on draft picks and no vison on how he'd like to see them play and at times the type of draft picks Giants are "encouraged" to make or not make?
And while I like Judge too- - can you tell me how many Super Bowls he has left the Giants to? How many layoff victories? How many playoff appearances?
No offense to you- but you and posters like you - want to tell me things but you show me nothing other than Cherry Pick a few games and disregard the other parts of the season.
I'll just add - I am rooting for you. You seem very confident in the giants so I hope you're not frustrated with me. - Instead you much feel psyched that there are a lot of suckers out there betting against the Giants to win only 7 games. SO tell me how much money did you put down for the Giants and the over? - $500,000? Whatever-- I hope you win. And anyone on here who bet Giants to lose more than 10 I hope they wind up broke. SO tell me- I'm rooting for you.
But if you haven't put your money where you mouth is- this just tells me you just want to fight. I didn't bet against the Giants this year. But I haven't bet on them either.
He’s not allowed to have an opinion unless he’s willing to put up a half million but the same doesn’t apply to you? Absolutely ridiculous. Such a clown show.
In 2015, he was the WR2 behind Brown again.
In 2016, he was suspended and the WR2 was Eli Rogers who did little
In 2017, he was the WR2 to start and lost the job to JuJu midway through the season.
Again - what about that is "decent"?? He was the starter and put up sub-par numbers - something you wouldn't call decent for any Giant player.
Par for the course.
For the number of games played, the total TDs scored, the # of catches, and the YPC, indeed, the word decent applies to Bryant's production.
I'm not saying very good, great or even Canton level production. Just decent.
As a helpful reminder, this from Merriam-Webster
Decent: fairly good : adequate, satisfactory
Hope that helps.
Quote:
And while I like Judge too- - can you tell me how many Super Bowls he has left the Giants to? How many layoff victories? How many playoff appearances?
This is a asinine statement. I wasn't even alive yet, but the parallels to the Parcels era seem relevant. How many wins did he have, how many Super Bowls, how many playoffs appearances. I'd imagine the vibe around Parcells is the same as Judge, things just feel different now and he's put his stamp on the team.
Expecting first-year results with a roster that had garbage at WR, no pass rushers, an extremely young line that's a work in progress, a second-year QB learning a new offense and having clear coaching points going into the season, and a COVID offseason to boot. The fact this team has been more competitive than it's been since that one off in 2016 doesn't mean anything? The expectations are ridiculous. I imagine more when this team goes 1 and done in playoffs due to lack of experience.
Things don't happen overnight. The Bucs seem to be the exception because they added some good talent to a good roster and replaced their QB who was single-handedly losing games, season in season out. I watched Jameis a lot because I live here and I think Darnold takes the same route. The exact same QB he was in college with no growth.
There was enough there with Jameis you hoped he'd put it together, but he never did. That's why I'm excited about DJ, I saw growth even though it didn't show up on the stat sheet. Not as confident with Eli (thought he was 100% the franchise QB after his second year), but he's shown enough growth to me that he puts it together. A guy that's going to get better every year and not stagnate.
Barkley on his own doesn't make the line better. Behind a subpar line Barkley had a ridiculous amount of < 2 yard carries his first two years in the league. He needs the line to play better.
The Giants are asking 4 of their starters to do something they've never done before -- play 16 games of league average NFL football.
The ranking of the OL is fine. I think they still have some stinkers individually and as a group but the trend will be to significant positive results. The key will be winning 1st down more. Everyone will benefit. Don’t underestimate Sale. I think this coach will be more than just a good OL coach.
Eli, Tannehill, Darnold and Josh Allen seem to be the most prevalent from my memory. Not surprised others have branched off to Big Ben, Rodgers and Brady as that only seems par for course here.
However, it usually only winds up creating a larger differential between the point they are trying to make and the point they actually make...
Barkley on his own doesn't make the line better. Behind a subpar line Barkley had a ridiculous amount of < 2 yard carries his first two years in the league. He needs the line to play better.
The Giants are asking 4 of their starters to do something they've never done before -- play 16 games of league average NFL football.
You can't honestly say that the line looked the same first eight weeks (and awful when Saquon was in, turned a corner in that Rams game) as it did the last 8 weeks. It's probably one of the youngest lines in the league. Whats more likely, the play from the first 8 to show up or the last?
Quote:
Lots of leaps of faith baked into optimism.
Barkley on his own doesn't make the line better. Behind a subpar line Barkley had a ridiculous amount of < 2 yard carries his first two years in the league. He needs the line to play better.
The Giants are asking 4 of their starters to do something they've never done before -- play 16 games of league average NFL football.
You can't honestly say that the line looked the same first eight weeks (and awful when Saquon was in, turned a corner in that Rams game) as it did the last 8 weeks. It's probably one of the youngest lines in the league. Whats more likely, the play from the first 8 to show up or the last?
Where do you come up with some of the shit you post? How did you read my post and come up with that reply?
It’s like you have hat full of exaggerations and loosely related replies you pull from at random.
Quote:
In comment 15282688 christian said:
Quote:
Lots of leaps of faith baked into optimism.
Barkley on his own doesn't make the line better. Behind a subpar line Barkley had a ridiculous amount of < 2 yard carries his first two years in the league. He needs the line to play better.
The Giants are asking 4 of their starters to do something they've never done before -- play 16 games of league average NFL football.
You can't honestly say that the line looked the same first eight weeks (and awful when Saquon was in, turned a corner in that Rams game) as it did the last 8 weeks. It's probably one of the youngest lines in the league. Whats more likely, the play from the first 8 to show up or the last?
Where do you come up with some of the shit you post? How did you read my post and come up with that reply?
It’s like you have hat full of exaggerations and loosely related replies you pull from at random.
You are the one that is going back two years acting like its pertinent what goes on next year. Please keep the attacks to the minimum, I do respect you as a poster opposed to some of the other negative nellies here. Personally, I look at how a very young offensive line performed in their later half of the year and want to extrapolate that forward. Is there something wrong with that?
I'm not a huge fan of Hernandez and think we should move on, but he was clearly a different player after he got Covid as well. Can't be easy for those big guys. The bigger you get, the more muscle mass you have, and the more water just drains out of you. Hangovers probably brutal for those guys if they aren't drinking beer.
I think the line was moderately better as the year went on — but I also think that was in part due to solid but unspectacular play by Zeitler, and at least in part by continuity between Fleming and Zeitler.
I think the line was moderately better as the year went on — but I also think that was in part due to solid but unspectacular play by Zeitler, and at least in part by continuity between Fleming and Zeitler.
Completely fair. Honestly, on the flip side of that it drives me crazy just how bad Lemiuex was in pass protection. He might have been the worst guard in the league. However, unless Barkley gets hurt this year (which based on his time in his league is a distinct possibility) I think they can work around it. Personally, I think they were so good at run blocking last year they'll probably be able to work around it anyway.
Feels weird because I was a Gallman guy since he got drafted and didn't understand why he didn't get more burn, but in extensive playing time I see why he didn't. Our line blocked really well for run game last year, but our backs were straight garbage. People here sing Morris praises and he def wasn't in top 100 back, might not even be top 200. All people see is the yards per carry, and not what happened to make it.
IMO, Saquon would have ran for over 6 last year and to me the splits between him and Gallman through their Giants career prove that. I mean all of a sudden Gallman starts running for 1.5 ypc more than his career and its him? Yeah it was the OL and Barkley hasn't had a taste. He's salivating right now I guarantee it.
Quote:
That was pissy response by me, my bad Zeke.
I think the line was moderately better as the year went on — but I also think that was in part due to solid but unspectacular play by Zeitler, and at least in part by continuity between Fleming and Zeitler.
Completely fair. Honestly, on the flip side of that it drives me crazy just how bad Lemiuex was in pass protection. He might have been the worst guard in the league. However, unless Barkley gets hurt this year (which based on his time in his league is a distinct possibility) I think they can work around it. Personally, I think they were so good at run blocking last year they'll probably be able to work around it anyway.
Feels weird because I was a Gallman guy since he got drafted and didn't understand why he didn't get more burn, but in extensive playing time I see why he didn't. Our line blocked really well for run game last year, but our backs were straight garbage. People here sing Morris praises and he def wasn't in top 100 back, might not even be top 200. All people see is the yards per carry, and not what happened to make it.
IMO, Saquon would have ran for over 6 last year and to me the splits between him and Gallman through their Giants career prove that. I mean all of a sudden Gallman starts running for 1.5 ypc more than his career and its him? Yeah it was the OL and Barkley hasn't had a taste. He's salivating right now I guarantee it.
If Barkley comes out rusty, or has a set back, I think things fall apart dramatically.
I think the odds are extremely low all of the new variables come together early enough to really protect Jones. And if the Giants are going to win 8 or 9 games next year, they have to be able to protect Jones a lot, not just marginally better.
I think it’s a huge crapshoot. I’m surprised Judge thinks this is a winning formula.
Quote:
In comment 15282349 Dr. D said:
Quote:
And while I like Judge too- - can you tell me how many Super Bowls he has left the Giants to? How many layoff victories? How many playoff appearances?
This is a asinine statement. I wasn't even alive yet, but the parallels to the Parcels era seem relevant.
The asinine statements are just coming from you. The point of my comment is that Judge hasn't accomplished nothing yet.
Odd that you'd mention Parcells. He's the exact opposite of what you're portraying. First off he frequent comments that "You are what your record says you are."
And to further that Parcells was known as button-pusher known to keep pushing his players more and more. Did you know he completely changed his coaching demeanor after his 1st year? He did it in part because he knew his ass was close to getting fired. Not only was the GM considering dumping him but fans back then had recently seen their team win a playoff game 2 years prior and weren't about to accept lousy football any more.
That's why you heard chants that 1st Parcells season "We want Madden!" Why do you think that was??? Because fans back then were demanding. Everyone was fed up. When are you and many others on here going to get fed up?
Now fast-forward to this past year leading into this year. What do we have? Fans like you. Fans that cheer 6-10. Hey why don't you go down the field and give all the players a hug? Instead of getting pissy with me- when are some of you going to grow a spine and start demanding some success or at least not be such wimpy homers? 6-10 sucks. My Sunday's have been miserable. Yours hasn't?
Seeing how YOU were the one that brought up Parcells - let's reiterate again what he used to say - and not the wimpy excuses many fans on here try to pass on- "You are what your record says you are." - Joe Judge- you are what your record says you are. - Let's hope you do better. Posters like you want to tell me that the Giants are much more than what I think of 7-10. Well - show me.
Hey if you are so positive on the team - I hope you gamble and win 1million. I want you to win. Best of luck for you and anyone else who has.
This site has become exhausting with the amount of delusional faith people want to put in a regime that merely showed signs of not being completely incompetent last year. And for the record it was a breath of fresh air to see how they maneuvered in the draft this year.
I loved the trade back but the little time I spent reading on here there seems to be again, a weird amount of attention paid to DG evolving and not the obvious power shift to New England types. It's good, but I give DG very little credit other than getting out of the way. (Probably, based on what some insiders have said forced out of the way while being allowed to maintain some dignity)
I hope this risk made with the line where they spent a first round pick on a WR and a huge FA contract for a WR and no real additional resources pays off for them. To me I can't fathom all they invested this offseason wanting to not have failsafes upon failsafes for a line that has pretty much been a standout bad unit on a standout bad team for longer than I care to remember. I just hope if it doesn't work out management gets strung up for risking season after season on this same mistake, but I doubt it.
He’s not allowed to have an opinion unless he’s willing to put up a half million but the same doesn’t apply to you? Absolutely ridiculous. Such a clown show.
Hey Big blue - I've posted on here previously - I said 7-10. Where is my "obvious" gambling move?
I don't have much of a play at 7-10, do I? You tell me where my obvious gambling move is.
Posters that have criticized me to make it sound like we are going to MUCH BETTER than 7-10 (i.e. imply/suggest that it's pretty obvious we will be much better.). So tell me what I can do as a pretty obvious bet?
If the Giants are going to be close to 7-10 then what have I said that is so far off from a 7-10 type team? A 7-10 team is a bad team, right?
Me asking him to put his money where his mouth is -- while saying I want him to win a ton of money- is that bad and you are interpreting this in some manner that I am not allowing him to express his opinion? I want him to win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I want you to win!!!! I want us to go 17-0 - win the Super Bowl - all unlikely. These arguments are fun but it is nothing nothing nothing to Football season. You tell me a good way to win some obvious money - I'll give it a shot. If I think Giants OL is very good why wouldn't I be all over betting on the Giants?
* Kept Nate Solder and restructured deal
* Released best Guard in Kevin Zeitler
* Signed Guard Zach Fulton
* Ignored the OL in the draft
What's not to like there?
In the Super Bowl broke my heart.
Wait til you watch Devanta Smith.
The homerism displayed on this site never ceases to amaze me
This site has become exhausting with the amount of delusional faith people want to put in a regime that merely showed signs of not being completely incompetent last year.
100%
The homerism displayed on this site never ceases to amaze me
The bizarre takes on both sides are frustrating to read here. And it usually obscures the rational discussion. The giants have not had a good OL. They have young players who have the potential to improve and build a strong foundation. Calling the players on the line incompetent or calling them Pro Bowlers adds nothing.
Quote:
Wouldn't trade Gates for another center in this league?!
The homerism displayed on this site never ceases to amaze me
The bizarre takes on both sides are frustrating to read here. And it usually obscures the rational discussion. The giants have not had a good OL. They have young players who have the potential to improve and build a strong foundation. Calling the players on the line incompetent or calling them Pro Bowlers adds nothing.
exactly right. I do think they have some legit guys on the OL with a real chance to be an effective unit. It's been a long time since I've thought that. I think Thomas was a legit starting LT by the end of last season. Peart seemed to be coming on before he got sick. Gates looks to be legit. Gs are the question. Will Lemieux be able to become competent at pass blocking, and can Hernandez become an effective RG (or Fulton)? I don't think Solder plays unless Peart shows that he can't.
We'll see.
They have two Pro Bowlers?
Quote:
Wouldn't trade Gates for another center in this league?!
The homerism displayed on this site never ceases to amaze me
The bizarre takes on both sides are frustrating to read here. And it usually obscures the rational discussion. The giants have not had a good OL. They have young players who have the potential to improve and build a strong foundation. Calling the players on the line incompetent or calling them Pro Bowlers adds nothing.
Agree with that
As per Nick Gates - I was blown away by his play last year after a terrible start. Call me a homer all you want, I think you'll be eating those words this year. He is a big time C. I'm not going to act like I know how good every C in the league is, but I wouldn't give up Gates right now. 100% satisfied with his play.
As per Nick Gates - I was blown away by his play last year after a terrible start. Call me a homer all you want, I think you'll be eating those words this year. He is a big time C. I'm not going to act like I know how good every C in the league is, but I wouldn't give up Gates right now. 100% satisfied with his play.
Gates is going to be a solid NFL OC. Solid.
I also like Peart to hold his own at RT.