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NFT: Baseball fans: Will Pete Rose be in the HOF after he dies?

superspynyg : 6/8/2021 7:44 am
The wife and I were talking about this last night. I say yes they are waiting for him to die so they do not have to give him the honor while he lives.

His Crimea are antiquated as he is the best American hitter of all time (debate with him and Ichiro).

What say you?
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Throwing games would be unpardonable  
Csonka : 6/8/2021 3:22 pm : link
That hurts the integrity of the game. The rule is in place because of the Black Sox.

If Pete bet against his team and then threw games to win money, that should have come out. If it's a fact, ban him forever. Don't hide facts and say it's for the good of the game. But that never came out as fact to my knowledge.

I personally don't give a crap if a guy bets ON his team. As long as everyone plays to win, the game isn't fixed. And that's what matters to me.
it's very likely  
Enzo : 6/8/2021 3:23 pm : link
we'll never know the full extent of Rose's transgressions.

Quote:
Did Rose bet on his own team to lose? Dowd says he and his two investigators uncovered evidence that he did, "although that evidence didn't reach the standard to include in our report."

Link - ( New Window )
RE: Throwing games would be unpardonable  
Enzo : 6/8/2021 3:38 pm : link
In comment 15282589 Csonka said:
Quote:
I personally don't give a crap if a guy bets ON his team. As long as everyone plays to win, the game isn't fixed. And that's what matters to me.

It's bad either way. In baseball, more than most sports, decisions made in individual games affect future games.
Weird situation in Cincinnati.  
JB_in_DC : 6/8/2021 3:45 pm : link
all of Pete Rose's inner circle needing surgery like that in just a three year span.... Was someone going breaking kneecaps
RE: Rose  
Matt M. : 6/8/2021 3:54 pm : link
In comment 15282439 Simms said:
Quote:
At least his records are in the HOF for his fans to enjoy.

Truth be told he also used players health and well being as pawns to win bets. Always played to win sure, but who knows the futures of players who were not given a shot, or placed in a situation to only fail, some an injury missing a spot start etc. Please he had ZERO remorse.

When Bench and Morgan were on the veterans committee, they didn't support or push for his entry either.

Having a met Rose and also having a strong connection to a member of the team, confirms my opinion its only about the HOF title with the coin it would fill his pockets.

Rose agreed to the ban, thinking in a year or so baseball would never keep him out. Why? Because besides being the Hit king (although it took him approx. 1500 additional at bats just to equal Ty Cobb) and he considered himself Mr. Baseball.

*Commish died so Rose used it as an excuse for his delay.
*Rose said Bench did not support him because it conflicted with his HOF spotlight.
* Rose was fired from his baseball gig, issues with under age girls..the list goes on.

Excuses for excuses. Lately some form of sorrow from Rose because as age prevents him from enjoying the HOF Coin.

Just a leopard cannot alter his spots, Rose is who he is. Its sad, on multiple levels.

But the Steroid factor for others might open a door for Rose with the risk of a losing generational players not gaining entry during a lifetime of fans who actually saw them play.

Some have mentioned adding details to their HOF plaque.
It will be interesting to see how it plays out.




Steroids are irrelevant. Players like A-Rod, Bonds, Clemens who are not in are no banned. If they eventually get in, it has absolutely no bearing on Rose's chances.
RE: It would be interesting to quantify how much money and opportunity he  
Matt M. : 6/8/2021 3:56 pm : link
In comment 15282411 glowrider said:
Quote:
Has lost out on by not being a HoFer. By now he must surely be deep in the red (pun intended) on that tradeoff.

Pigs get slaughtered and that’s what happened here. No pity.
Maybe not. How much more would he be doing if he were in? It's not like the HoF is a mint for money for these guys. He's still be signing a ton of shit. He may charge a bit more, but he also sold plenty because of his notoriety. Plus, his book probably sold more because of it.
RE: Is is odd what some fans dig their heels in on. Obviously  
Matt M. : 6/8/2021 3:59 pm : link
In comment 15282522 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
there is lots of subjectivity when it comes to various hall of fame voting processes, and who deserves to be in based on their accomplishments.

However, the Pete Rose case isn't one of them. He bet on baseball when he was still playing and managing, and that doesn't work for baseball. This one is easy.

Next thing you all are going to tell me is Shoeless Joe Jackson shouldn't have been banned either...
I think there is a stronger case for Jackson allowed in. Most of the evidence points to him being extremely ignorant, not completely understanding what was going on, and not understanding what he was "signing" with his "confession". Plus, he had the best Series of any player on either team.
RE: RE: Is is odd what some fans dig their heels in on. Obviously  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/8/2021 4:37 pm : link
In comment 15282612 Matt M. said:
Quote:
In comment 15282522 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


there is lots of subjectivity when it comes to various hall of fame voting processes, and who deserves to be in based on their accomplishments.

However, the Pete Rose case isn't one of them. He bet on baseball when he was still playing and managing, and that doesn't work for baseball. This one is easy.

Next thing you all are going to tell me is Shoeless Joe Jackson shouldn't have been banned either...


I think there is a stronger case for Jackson allowed in. Most of the evidence points to him being extremely ignorant, not completely understanding what was going on, and not understanding what he was "signing" with his "confession". Plus, he had the best Series of any player on either team.


I've always thought that way too. He had a very good series and seemingly tried to win. I'm also with Googs here, he bet on the game. Whether there is a bigger evil on if he only bet when they won really doesn't matter. Just like point shaving is illegal and teams can still win the game, betting is strictly against the rules.

It's a bit like Lance Armstrong. Denying usage for so long and yet, in the end, he broke the rules and paid the price. You don't get extra points for denying you did something and it only brings in the specter that you did more.
On the..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/8/2021 4:38 pm : link
betting part, I was referring to Rose
RE: RE: Is is odd what some fans dig their heels in on. Obviously  
Jimmy Googs : 6/8/2021 4:39 pm : link
In comment 15282612 Matt M. said:
Quote:
In comment 15282522 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


there is lots of subjectivity when it comes to various hall of fame voting processes, and who deserves to be in based on their accomplishments.

However, the Pete Rose case isn't one of them. He bet on baseball when he was still playing and managing, and that doesn't work for baseball. This one is easy.

Next thing you all are going to tell me is Shoeless Joe Jackson shouldn't have been banned either...


I think there is a stronger case for Jackson allowed in. Most of the evidence points to him being extremely ignorant, not completely understanding what was going on, and not understanding what he was "signing" with his "confession". Plus, he had the best Series of any player on either team.


It might be a different case but not one I would label as stronger.

Jackson's story and confessions were ever-changing in the scandal and subsequent investigation. And he may have been an ignorant and confused person, but one thing that he never disputed nor debated was his knowledge of the scam and admission of accepting at least $5,000 of an expected $20,000 payday as to his involvement.

As to his stats during the series, closer look at his performance indicates a significant difference in his batting production in games 1-5 (bad) versus 6-8 (good), particularly with men on base. The split being when the players finally got their money but received far less than what they were promised by the gamblers and decided to play on the up and up, and admitted to later.

Shoeless Joe was one of the greatest hitters of all-time but the evidence against him was pretty clear. And he was banned for it.
Shoeless Joe Jackson world series splits...  
Jimmy Googs : 6/8/2021 4:58 pm : link
Overall Batting:
12-for-32 with 5 runs, 6 RBI, 3 doubles, a home run, one walk and two strikeouts. He came to bat 16 times with men on base, collecting 6 hits (.375) and plating 5 of the 21 runners on in front of him.

However, in the first five games he had 7 at-bats with men on base, with 10 runners on, and collected just one hit and no RBI.

It was in the final three games of the World Series that Jackson padded his stats: hitting 9-for-11 with men on base and collecting 5 RBI.

Overall Fielding:
While Jackson wasn't charged with any errors in the field during the Series, many that reviewed his play in left field as “letting up” on hit balls and allowing the Reds to get more bases than they should have, particularly in Games 1 & 2.


I feel that the Hall of Fame should honor  
BigBlueBuff : 6/8/2021 6:33 pm : link
the greatest players of the game for their contributions. However, they should also acknowledge the players that have a tainted legacy, perhaps an exhibit where the transgressions of players like Rose, Shoeless Joe, Clemons, and Bonds can be displayed and shown for future generations rather than pretending that these players didn't exist.

Perhaps it's just my generation, but I just turned 50 and when I was a kid growing up in the 70's playing wiffle ball and later Little League baseball, the players I always pretended to be were guys like Reggie Jackson, Carl Carl Yastrzemski (I had a confused childhood in Central CT), Pete Rose, Willie Stargell, and Johnny Bench. The only one of those names not in Cooperstown is Rose. It seems odd to not include him, even if it's just with an asterisk.
The Black Sox scandal and banning of those players like Joe Jackson  
Jimmy Googs : 6/8/2021 7:27 pm : link
is part of baseball history.

Ironically, despite being 3rd all-time with career batting avg of .356, throwing some of those world series games probably made Jackson more famous than anything else he did in his entire career. Field of Dreams of course didn't hurt either but personally always felt that flick is overrated.

To the more avid baseball fan (like me) Shoeless Joe was a great all-around player and one of the best pure hitters the game has ever seen. Simple fact is he screwed up and it cost him, but he was always be part of baseball lore whether he is in the HoF or not...
RE: RE: RE: Is is odd what some fans dig their heels in on. Obviously  
Matt M. : 6/8/2021 10:34 pm : link
In comment 15282643 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15282612 Matt M. said:


Quote:


In comment 15282522 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


there is lots of subjectivity when it comes to various hall of fame voting processes, and who deserves to be in based on their accomplishments.

However, the Pete Rose case isn't one of them. He bet on baseball when he was still playing and managing, and that doesn't work for baseball. This one is easy.

Next thing you all are going to tell me is Shoeless Joe Jackson shouldn't have been banned either...


I think there is a stronger case for Jackson allowed in. Most of the evidence points to him being extremely ignorant, not completely understanding what was going on, and not understanding what he was "signing" with his "confession". Plus, he had the best Series of any player on either team.



I've always thought that way too. He had a very good series and seemingly tried to win. I'm also with Googs here, he bet on the game. Whether there is a bigger evil on if he only bet when they won really doesn't matter. Just like point shaving is illegal and teams can still win the game, betting is strictly against the rules.

It's a bit like Lance Armstrong. Denying usage for so long and yet, in the end, he broke the rules and paid the price. You don't get extra points for denying you did something and it only brings in the specter that you did more.
Maybe we were tainted by Eight Men Out and Field of Dreams
if Joe Jackson ain't getting in  
RasputinPrime : 6/9/2021 12:28 am : link
Pete Rose shouldn't either.

If they let Schilling in, they should all be pumped in.
RE: if Joe Jackson ain't getting in  
Mad Mike : 6/9/2021 12:32 am : link
In comment 15282900 RasputinPrime said:
Quote:
Pete Rose shouldn't either.

If they let Schilling in, they should all be pumped in.

There's really no comparison between Schilling and those guys, and if he gets in, that wouldn't be the slightest justification for either of them.
RE: I could see it happening because it seemed like he was kept out  
Eman11 : 6/9/2021 1:14 am : link
In comment 15282444 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
because by all accounts, he was an unlikeable asshole. If he was someone his peers actually liked, he'd probably be getting in in his golden years.


He’s been kept out because that’s the punishment he agreed to with Giamatti, in return for the reports on him being kept confidential. He didn’t want the dirt getting out and mistakenly thought over time MLB would cave and let him in.

As for those saying no proof he bet against his team, he didn’t have to. If he’s betting several times a week on his team to win,then doesn’t bet on a given day, what does that say to who’s placing his bets, the bookie and anyone connected to the bookie?

Time to load up on the opponent and make a nice score. Plus he was in prime position for inside info that day like if his pitcher wasn’t feeling well, had a sore arm, etc.

Either way there have been signs in every MLB clubhouse forbidding betting forever, and how seriously MLB views gambling on baseball. Pete got what he deserved and I don’t think he ever gets in., nor do I think he should get in.
RE: if Joe Jackson ain't getting in  
Matt M. : 6/9/2021 8:19 am : link
In comment 15282900 RasputinPrime said:
Quote:
Pete Rose shouldn't either.

If they let Schilling in, they should all be pumped in.
I despise Schilling, but dont are what he has to do with Rose.
with all the steroid HR hitters getting in the Hall..Rose will  
MartyNJ1969 : 6/9/2021 10:18 am : link
eventually get in. He deserved it. He had a gambling problem which is no different then an alcoholic problem and there are a lot of alcoholics in the HOF
RE: with all the steroid HR hitters getting in the Hall..Rose will  
Gmen88 : 6/9/2021 10:30 am : link
In comment 15282988 MartyNJ1969 said:
Quote:
eventually get in. He deserved it. He had a gambling problem which is no different then an alcoholic problem and there are a lot of alcoholics in the HOF


It's actually extremely different when you are betting on games that you are playing in/managing.
RE: with all the steroid HR hitters getting in the Hall..Rose will  
Dr. D : 6/9/2021 11:11 am : link
In comment 15282988 MartyNJ1969 said:
Quote:
eventually get in. He deserved it. He had a gambling problem which is no different then an alcoholic problem and there are a lot of alcoholics in the HOF

There's no MLB rule prohibiting alcoholism.
RE: with all the steroid HR hitters getting in the Hall..Rose will  
Jimmy Googs : 6/9/2021 11:31 am : link
In comment 15282988 MartyNJ1969 said:
Quote:
eventually get in. He deserved it. He had a gambling problem which is no different then an alcoholic problem and there are a lot of alcoholics in the HOF


Yes, they are both very serious problems. But baseball has a clear strict policy against betting on the game in any fashion, and they have enforced it on Rose. Unlikely that reverses itself, at least in our lifetimes...
RE: if Joe Jackson ain't getting in  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 6/9/2021 11:44 am : link
In comment 15282900 RasputinPrime said:
Quote:
Pete Rose shouldn't either.


This is a great point. What Rose did was clearly worse than what Jackson did. Jackson had the best series of any hitter in the 1919 World Series that he supposedly threw. There was never really any proof that Jackson definitely participated in that scandal, and if he did then he did an awful job of it considering how well he played. Rose was caught red handed betting on his own teams games as a Manager which is about as bad as it gets in pro sports. MUCH worse than PEDs imo.

Should Rose be in the HOF? If I had a vote I'd say he belongs for his great playing career. But at the same time, I 100% agree with Rasputin that Rose should not get in before Jackson. BTW, Jackson died 70 years ago and still isn't in it.

Also as others have mentioned, "Best American Hitter" is an absolute joke. He wasn't even the Best American Hitter on those dominant Big Red Machine teams, that honor goes to the late Joe Morgan and it wasn't close.
RE: with all the steroid HR hitters getting in the Hall..Rose will  
Mad Mike : 6/9/2021 11:53 am : link
In comment 15282988 MartyNJ1969 said:
Quote:
eventually get in. He deserved it. He had a gambling problem which is no different then an alcoholic problem and there are a lot of alcoholics in the HOF

C'mon.
RE: RE: if Joe Jackson ain't getting in  
Jimmy Googs : 6/9/2021 1:01 pm : link
In comment 15283101 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
In comment 15282900 RasputinPrime said:


Quote:


Pete Rose shouldn't either.




This is a great point. What Rose did was clearly worse than what Jackson did. Jackson had the best series of any hitter in the 1919 World Series that he supposedly threw. There was never really any proof that Jackson definitely participated in that scandal, and if he did then he did an awful job of it considering how well he played.



Summary of Joe Jackson's grand jury testimony...

On the afternoon of September 28, 1920, Jackson testified under oath before the grand jury. At the core of the Jackson testimony rests a contradiction. On the incriminating side of the ledger, Jackson provided a fairly detailed account of the fix from his perspective, including his acceptance of $5,000 before the start of Game Five. Notwithstanding that, Jackson insisted that he had done nothing in the field to earn his payoff, citing his World Series stats as proof that he had given his best efforts at all times during the action.

Jackson’s testimony about the corruption of the World Series was precise and specific. He had not attended the mid-September players-only fix meeting at the Ansonia Hotel in New York. Nor had he been present for a follow-up meeting with gamblers in Chicago’s Warner Hotel, although Lefty Williams had told him about it afterwards. Rather, Jackson had been propositioned privately by teammate Chick Gandil. At first, Jackson rebuffed him. But in time, Joe agreed to join the plot to throw the Series in return for a $20,000 payoff, to be “split up some way” after each series game.

On the evening before the White Sox were to return to Cincinnati for Game Five, Lefty Williams entered Jackson’s room at the Lexington Hotel and threw $5,000 onto the bed. At that, Jackson asked, “What the hell had come off here?” Williams replied that Gandil “said we got the screw through Abe Attell. He got the money but refused to turn it over to [Gandil].” But Jackson suspected that Gandil actually had the payoff money and had “kept the majority of it for himself.” When Jackson later complained to Gandil, Chick told him that he could either “take that [$5,000] or leave it alone.” That evening, when Jackson told his wife that he “got $5,000 for helping throw [Series] games,” Katie Jackson told Joe that “she thought it was an awful thing to do.” Jackson put the $5,000 — “some hundreds, mostly fifties” in denomination — in his pocket and took the money with him to Cincinnati.
RE: RE: I could see it happening because it seemed like he was kept out  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/9/2021 1:35 pm : link
In comment 15282903 Eman11 said:
Quote:
In comment 15282444 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


because by all accounts, he was an unlikeable asshole. If he was someone his peers actually liked, he'd probably be getting in in his golden years.



He’s been kept out because that’s the punishment he agreed to with Giamatti, in return for the reports on him being kept confidential. He didn’t want the dirt getting out and mistakenly thought over time MLB would cave and let him in.

As for those saying no proof he bet against his team, he didn’t have to. If he’s betting several times a week on his team to win,then doesn’t bet on a given day, what does that say to who’s placing his bets, the bookie and anyone connected to the bookie?

Time to load up on the opponent and make a nice score. Plus he was in prime position for inside info that day like if his pitcher wasn’t feeling well, had a sore arm, etc.

Either way there have been signs in every MLB clubhouse forbidding betting forever, and how seriously MLB views gambling on baseball. Pete got what he deserved and I don’t think he ever gets in., nor do I think he should get in.


Because the worry isn’t that some illegal bookie is going to rake in more cash, it’s that the sanctity of the game takes a hit with guys point shaving. That’s why gambling is illegal for these guys because it’s a slippery slope. In too deep with your bookie? Well there’s a way to rectify that. There’s no proof he disgraced the game itself, by purposely tanking games. I could really care less either way, but to deny him seems asinine to me based on the available information.
RE: RE: RE: I could see it happening because it seemed like he was kept out  
Mad Mike : 6/9/2021 1:41 pm : link
In comment 15283216 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
Because the worry isn’t that some illegal bookie is going to rake in more cash, it’s that the sanctity of the game takes a hit with guys point shaving. That’s why gambling is illegal for these guys because it’s a slippery slope. In too deep with your bookie? Well there’s a way to rectify that. There’s no proof he disgraced the game itself, by purposely tanking games. I could really care less either way, but to deny him seems asinine to me based on the available information.

So a rule should be disregarded because you haven't seen proof that his violation of the rule resulting in something that isn't part of the rule?
Would advise some read Major League Rule 21(d)  
Jimmy Googs : 6/9/2021 1:44 pm : link
There is no subjectivity in what it says and how it applies to Pete Rose.

None.
RE: RE: RE: I could see it happening because it seemed like he was kept out  
Eman11 : 6/9/2021 1:58 pm : link
In comment 15283216 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15282903 Eman11 said:


Quote:


In comment 15282444 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


because by all accounts, he was an unlikeable asshole. If he was someone his peers actually liked, he'd probably be getting in in his golden years.



He’s been kept out because that’s the punishment he agreed to with Giamatti, in return for the reports on him being kept confidential. He didn’t want the dirt getting out and mistakenly thought over time MLB would cave and let him in.

As for those saying no proof he bet against his team, he didn’t have to. If he’s betting several times a week on his team to win,then doesn’t bet on a given day, what does that say to who’s placing his bets, the bookie and anyone connected to the bookie?

Time to load up on the opponent and make a nice score. Plus he was in prime position for inside info that day like if his pitcher wasn’t feeling well, had a sore arm, etc.

Either way there have been signs in every MLB clubhouse forbidding betting forever, and how seriously MLB views gambling on baseball. Pete got what he deserved and I don’t think he ever gets in., nor do I think he should get in.



Because the worry isn’t that some illegal bookie is going to rake in more cash, it’s that the sanctity of the game takes a hit with guys point shaving. That’s why gambling is illegal for these guys because it’s a slippery slope. In too deep with your bookie? Well there’s a way to rectify that. There’s no proof he disgraced the game itself, by purposely tanking games. I could really care less either way, but to deny him seems asinine to me based on the available information.


Why did he agree to the lifetime banishment and it making him ineligible to the HOF then? That’s all the available info anyone needs.
why? is complicated  
pjcas18 : 6/9/2021 2:11 pm : link
and Rose technically agreed to the lifetime ban but when he agreed there were terms where he could seek reinstatement (in as soon as one year from the suspension) and if you read any of the articles then or watch the videos Rose legitimately thought he'd be back in baseball a year later.

What Rose couldn't predict was two years AFTER he agreed to the suspension, after Giamatti died - at the prodding of Giamatti friend and new commissioner Fay Vincent, the MLB HOF passed a rule that made anyone on MLB's ineligible list would be banned from appearing on the HOF ballot.

Also, if you read anything or listen to anything from around that time - all Giamatti wanted was remorse and contrition - if Rose had come clean - completely clean even behind closed doors with Giamatti I think they would/could have come to some type of agreement when Rose could be reinstated or Giamatti wouldn't have been so adamant about not being HOF eligible.

But Rose was so arrogant and cocky and continued to lie about it and stall the whole process with legal shenanigans and bad faith and that was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak and no commissioner now wants to be the one to "not have his predecessor's back".

RE: RE: RE: RE: I could see it happening because it seemed like he was kept out  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/9/2021 3:11 pm : link
In comment 15283225 Mad Mike said:
Quote:
In comment 15283216 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


Because the worry isn’t that some illegal bookie is going to rake in more cash, it’s that the sanctity of the game takes a hit with guys point shaving. That’s why gambling is illegal for these guys because it’s a slippery slope. In too deep with your bookie? Well there’s a way to rectify that. There’s no proof he disgraced the game itself, by purposely tanking games. I could really care less either way, but to deny him seems asinine to me based on the available information.


So a rule should be disregarded because you haven't seen proof that his violation of the rule resulting in something that isn't part of the rule?


No, it’s just that while he broke the rule, he didn’t violate the reason the rule got put in place. It’s why there’s debate on whether he should be in or not.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I could see it happening because it seemed like he was kept out  
Mad Mike : 6/9/2021 3:33 pm : link
In comment 15283310 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
No, it’s just that while he broke the rule, he didn’t violate the reason the rule got put in place. It’s why there’s debate on whether he should be in or not.

Well first of all, we don't know whether he violated "the reason the rule got put in place" or not. No evidence has been put forward showing he purposely lost games. That doesn't mean he didn't do that (personally, I think it's implausible that he didn't sometimes make decisions that benefited one game at the expense of another based on which games he'd bet on, but who knows).

But regardless, yes, you are literally saying what I said before - you think the rule should be disregarded because you haven't seen proof that his violation of the rule resulted in him doing something (purposely throwing games) that isn't even part of the rule. And after all, teams purposely tank games all the time at the end of the season. Maybe not NBA-level, but it's pretty clear that it goes on. MLB could prohibit that by rule. But they don't. They could make the rule, no gambling and then altering how you play the game to benefit your gambling. But they don't. They prohibit exactly what Rose did, something of which he was fully aware when he did it.
RE: why? is complicated  
Eman11 : 6/9/2021 3:35 pm : link
In comment 15283264 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
and Rose technically agreed to the lifetime ban but when he agreed there were terms where he could seek reinstatement (in as soon as one year from the suspension) and if you read any of the articles then or watch the videos Rose legitimately thought he'd be back in baseball a year later.

What Rose couldn't predict was two years AFTER he agreed to the suspension, after Giamatti died - at the prodding of Giamatti friend and new commissioner Fay Vincent, the MLB HOF passed a rule that made anyone on MLB's ineligible list would be banned from appearing on the HOF ballot.

Also, if you read anything or listen to anything from around that time - all Giamatti wanted was remorse and contrition - if Rose had come clean - completely clean even behind closed doors with Giamatti I think they would/could have come to some type of agreement when Rose could be reinstated or Giamatti wouldn't have been so adamant about not being HOF eligible.

But Rose was so arrogant and cocky and continued to lie about it and stall the whole process with legal shenanigans and bad faith and that was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak and no commissioner now wants to be the one to "not have his predecessor's back".


Yes I remember all that but it was never a guarantee he would be reinstated, regardless of what he thought or hoped. He had no way of knowing what the future held as far as Bart or Fay but he did know exactly what he was agreeing too.

You’re right about the possibility/conditions but since he showed absolutely no remorse, and with Bart’s passing, he was held to the original agreement, and rightfully so IMO.

Eman  
pjcas18 : 6/9/2021 3:52 pm : link
I agree, there was no guarantee he'd be reinstated or even anything less than a guarantee - I'm just telling you what Rose's mindset was at the time (based on what I have read and watched) and the fact the banishment agreement his signed allowed him to apply for reinstatement at I believe the sole discretion of the commissioner.

I remember reading something immediately after the suspension while giving a press conference where Rose said he was looking forward to his daughter's 1st birthday because it was 2 days before he'd be reinstated (something like that).

Rose never got the magnitude of what he did or how serious anyone felt it was, until much later in life.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I could see it happening because it seemed like he was kept out  
Jimmy Googs : 6/9/2021 4:01 pm : link
In comment 15283310 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15283225 Mad Mike said:


Quote:


In comment 15283216 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


Because the worry isn’t that some illegal bookie is going to rake in more cash, it’s that the sanctity of the game takes a hit with guys point shaving. That’s why gambling is illegal for these guys because it’s a slippery slope. In too deep with your bookie? Well there’s a way to rectify that. There’s no proof he disgraced the game itself, by purposely tanking games. I could really care less either way, but to deny him seems asinine to me based on the available information.


So a rule should be disregarded because you haven't seen proof that his violation of the rule resulting in something that isn't part of the rule?



No, it’s just that while he broke the rule, he didn’t violate the reason the rule got put in place. It’s why there’s debate on whether he should be in or not.


Whether he did or didn't violate the reason the rule got in place is a convenient and selective sidestep.

First and foremost, its not relevant. Second, not certain how you know all of the very reason(s) themselves. And third, not certain how you know he didn't violate any of them even if they were relevant.

Yes, there is a debate on whether he should be in or not. However, it is not a debate by Major League Baseball or the Hall of Fame as they have already spoken and ruled several times on the topic.

Nevertheless, would think the fans having the debate are best served to stick to at least the relevant facts.
RE: Eman  
Jimmy Googs : 6/9/2021 4:07 pm : link
In comment 15283326 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
I agree, there was no guarantee he'd be reinstated or even anything less than a guarantee - I'm just telling you what Rose's mindset was at the time (based on what I have read and watched) and the fact the banishment agreement his signed allowed him to apply for reinstatement at I believe the sole discretion of the commissioner.

I remember reading something immediately after the suspension while giving a press conference where Rose said he was looking forward to his daughter's 1st birthday because it was 2 days before he'd be reinstated (something like that).

Rose never got the magnitude of what he did or how serious anyone felt it was, until much later in life.


Agree with all of this as well
RE: Eman  
Eman11 : 6/9/2021 4:12 pm : link
In comment 15283326 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
I agree, there was no guarantee he'd be reinstated or even anything less than a guarantee - I'm just telling you what Rose's mindset was at the time (based on what I have read and watched) and the fact the banishment agreement his signed allowed him to apply for reinstatement at I believe the sole discretion of the commissioner.

I remember reading something immediately after the suspension while giving a press conference where Rose said he was looking forward to his daughter's 1st birthday because it was 2 days before he'd be reinstated (something like that).

Rose never got the magnitude of what he did or how serious anyone felt it was, until much later in life.


Great memory man, and I remember that as well.

You’re right about his mindset, and to me that and his ego are what has hurt him big time.

When he agreed to the conditions with Giamatti, it was because he didn’t want the details leaked and figured I’ll just sign this and I’m too big for them to deny me down the road.

I think that arrogance and him basically thumbing his nose at MLB along the way, caused Faye to basically dig his heals in and play some real hard ball. Now they use that agreement as all the evidence they need to keep him out and I don’t think he ever gets in now.

He might’ve had a slight chance years ago if he fessed up, and showed remorse but he took the opposite approach, and is paying the price. Rightfully so to me.
I'd put Rose in...  
bw in dc : 6/9/2021 4:19 pm : link
for sure. It's obvious he has an addiction that he can't control. So I have always tried to see his situation in through the lens of a sickness, like alcoholism.

Had Rose accepted that he had this condition, and received treatment for a cure, I think he would have been in decades ago.
RE: RE: Eman  
pjcas18 : 6/9/2021 4:45 pm : link
In comment 15283335 Eman11 said:
Quote:
In comment 15283326 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


I agree, there was no guarantee he'd be reinstated or even anything less than a guarantee - I'm just telling you what Rose's mindset was at the time (based on what I have read and watched) and the fact the banishment agreement his signed allowed him to apply for reinstatement at I believe the sole discretion of the commissioner.

I remember reading something immediately after the suspension while giving a press conference where Rose said he was looking forward to his daughter's 1st birthday because it was 2 days before he'd be reinstated (something like that).

Rose never got the magnitude of what he did or how serious anyone felt it was, until much later in life.



Great memory man, and I remember that as well.

You’re right about his mindset, and to me that and his ego are what has hurt him big time.

When he agreed to the conditions with Giamatti, it was because he didn’t want the details leaked and figured I’ll just sign this and I’m too big for them to deny me down the road.

I think that arrogance and him basically thumbing his nose at MLB along the way, caused Faye to basically dig his heals in and play some real hard ball. Now they use that agreement as all the evidence they need to keep him out and I don’t think he ever gets in now.

He might’ve had a slight chance years ago if he fessed up, and showed remorse but he took the opposite approach, and is paying the price. Rightfully so to me.


lol, I didn't remember all of this, much of it i had to re-research (there are a ton of video interviews and articles from right after the suspension was announced - youtube, etc. until current day stuff and much from along the way at the various lawsuits, reinstatement applications, and events) but I did remember a lot of it.

and I appreciate your stance - personally I would vote him in if I were handed a ballot and his name was on it because of his on-field merits, he earned it; like I've said I don't feel strongly about it

I get it for people who think he should be banned for eternity and I agree he made his own bed

but I do believe in forgiveness, and I think it's a slippery moral slope when you pick and choose to let people who have committed some transgressions (that also effect the integrity of the game) in the HOF and not others. it's a line people create in their minds in pencil and erase it and move it when it's convenient - I find living that way has to be emotionally tiresome. And I mean PED's, stimulants, doctoring the ball, corking bats, etc.
Not for nothing, but Rose also corked his bats  
Jimmy Googs : 6/9/2021 5:01 pm : link
when he was getting closer to breaking Ty Cobb’s record.

 
christian : 6/9/2021 5:16 pm : link
I’d prefer the HOF recognize accomplishments and shortcomings in an exhibit. Rose, the Black Sox, PEDs. etc. It’s silly to leave out big chapters of the book, just to punish the characters.
RE: Not for nothing, but Rose also corked his bats  
bw in dc : 6/9/2021 5:27 pm : link
In comment 15283360 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
when he was getting closer to breaking Ty Cobb’s record.


That's alleged, right?

I mean, it makes sense. Rose did slug 160 HRs over 24 years. ;)
RE: RE: Not for nothing, but Rose also corked his bats  
Jimmy Googs : 6/9/2021 5:40 pm : link
In comment 15283371 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15283360 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


when he was getting closer to breaking Ty Cobb’s record.




That's alleged, right?

I mean, it makes sense. Rose did slug 160 HRs over 24 years. ;)


Yes, the allegations are all out there to read and follow.

Can’t be surprised though, I hope...

RE: RE: RE: Eman  
Eman11 : 6/9/2021 7:49 pm : link
In comment 15283353 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 15283335 Eman11 said:


Quote:


In comment 15283326 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


I agree, there was no guarantee he'd be reinstated or even anything less than a guarantee - I'm just telling you what Rose's mindset was at the time (based on what I have read and watched) and the fact the banishment agreement his signed allowed him to apply for reinstatement at I believe the sole discretion of the commissioner.

I remember reading something immediately after the suspension while giving a press conference where Rose said he was looking forward to his daughter's 1st birthday because it was 2 days before he'd be reinstated (something like that).

Rose never got the magnitude of what he did or how serious anyone felt it was, until much later in life.



Great memory man, and I remember that as well.

You’re right about his mindset, and to me that and his ego are what has hurt him big time.

When he agreed to the conditions with Giamatti, it was because he didn’t want the details leaked and figured I’ll just sign this and I’m too big for them to deny me down the road.

I think that arrogance and him basically thumbing his nose at MLB along the way, caused Faye to basically dig his heals in and play some real hard ball. Now they use that agreement as all the evidence they need to keep him out and I don’t think he ever gets in now.

He might’ve had a slight chance years ago if he fessed up, and showed remorse but he took the opposite approach, and is paying the price. Rightfully so to me.



lol, I didn't remember all of this, much of it i had to re-research (there are a ton of video interviews and articles from right after the suspension was announced - youtube, etc. until current day stuff and much from along the way at the various lawsuits, reinstatement applications, and events) but I did remember a lot of it.

and I appreciate your stance - personally I would vote him in if I were handed a ballot and his name was on it because of his on-field merits, he earned it; like I've said I don't feel strongly about it

I get it for people who think he should be banned for eternity and I agree he made his own bed

but I do believe in forgiveness, and I think it's a slippery moral slope when you pick and choose to let people who have committed some transgressions (that also effect the integrity of the game) in the HOF and not others. it's a line people create in their minds in pencil and erase it and move it when it's convenient - I find living that way has to be emotionally tiresome. And I mean PED's, stimulants, doctoring the ball, corking bats, etc.


One of my best friends is a huge Rose fan and we have this discussion at least once a year. He thinks he should get in and says he loved the way he played. Says they didn’t call him Charlie Hustle for nothing and I always say, yeah, I’d hustle every time too if I had money riding on it.

That usually ends the discussion for another year or so. Lol.
RE: …  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/9/2021 7:51 pm : link
In comment 15283367 christian said:
Quote:
I’d prefer the HOF recognize accomplishments and shortcomings in an exhibit. Rose, the Black Sox, PEDs. etc. It’s silly to leave out big chapters of the book, just to punish the characters.


100 percent agree. Don't whitewash history. It's not like we're renaming JFK International because Kennedy screwed around.
RE: RE: …  
Eman11 : 6/9/2021 8:51 pm : link
In comment 15283439 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
In comment 15283367 christian said:


Quote:


I’d prefer the HOF recognize accomplishments and shortcomings in an exhibit. Rose, the Black Sox, PEDs. etc. It’s silly to leave out big chapters of the book, just to punish the characters.



100 percent agree. Don't whitewash history. It's not like we're renaming JFK International because Kennedy screwed around.


Pretty sure his records and accomplishments are recognized there in Cooperstown. It’s Pete himself who isn’t in or considered a HOFer.
I'm an outlier, but I think all hall of fame inductions, as well as  
CT Charlie : 6/10/2021 11:20 pm : link
all-star games, MVPs, and awards like the Heisman are just silly. Voting on individual honors is ultimately subjective, dependent on fallible voters, and to me such honors contradict the premise that the value of team sports lies in fostering teamwork.

FWIW my opinion is colored by 32 years of high school teaching and coaching, where honoring players or students by the vote of coaches and teachers just seemed...wrong. But of course it's part of the culture.
RE: why? is complicated  
81_Great_Dane : 6/12/2021 5:23 pm : link
In comment 15283264 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
and Rose technically agreed to the lifetime ban but when he agreed there were terms where he could seek reinstatement (in as soon as one year from the suspension) and if you read any of the articles then or watch the videos Rose legitimately thought he'd be back in baseball a year later.

What Rose couldn't predict was two years AFTER he agreed to the suspension, after Giamatti died - at the prodding of Giamatti friend and new commissioner Fay Vincent, the MLB HOF passed a rule that made anyone on MLB's ineligible list would be banned from appearing on the HOF ballot.

Also, if you read anything or listen to anything from around that time - all Giamatti wanted was remorse and contrition - if Rose had come clean - completely clean even behind closed doors with Giamatti I think they would/could have come to some type of agreement when Rose could be reinstated or Giamatti wouldn't have been so adamant about not being HOF eligible.

But Rose was so arrogant and cocky and continued to lie about it and stall the whole process with legal shenanigans and bad faith and that was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak and no commissioner now wants to be the one to "not have his predecessor's back".
A couple of things:

1) Anyone subject to a "permanent" ban is allowed to apply for reinstatement every year. There's literally no more severe punishment he could have received than "permanent ban with the opportunity to ask to be reinstated." That's what a permanent ban is. He agreed to that.

2) Rose immediately broke his agreement by denying the charges. That put MLB and the Commissioner in a very difficult position.

3) Rose eventually admitted that he'd bet on the Reds, showing that he'd been lying to the public for years.

Pete Rose can live his life, sell autographs, do personal appearances, pose for selfies, enjoy whatever money he didn't gamble away, or any of a thousand things an ex-ballplayer can do. But he can't be in the Hall of Fame. If he'd wanted to be honored by baseball, he shouldn't have been betting on baseball games. Maybe harsh, but necessary.

It constantly amazes me how many fans seem oblivious to the danger that gambling represents to their favorite sports. It's a straight razor pressed against the game's jugular. That's why the penalties are so severe. Drug addicts and alcoholics endanger themselves and their careers. Steroids are cheating but don't threaten the game. Gamblers endanger the industry they work in.
Great Dane  
pjcas18 : 6/13/2021 8:59 am : link
I don't disagree with any of that, not sure if you were insinuating I did.

And to clarify my position, gambling on your sport and your team is wrong and damaging - heck gambling at all is outlawed in most sports on any sport (including fantasy sports and pools), but it's not as bad as betting against your team - which is a case where you as a player, coach or manager can directly influence the outcome - differently than betting for your team because in that case you're trying to win already. Of course point spreads can come in to play in some sports - but that's not the case here with Rose.

Unless your someone who thinks that the times you don't bet for your team is some signal to book makers that you are betting against your team (the weak argument I've heard about Rose).

that's the only possible think way I've "defended" Rose and it's not even a defense it was merely refuting a comment from one poster.

Rose deserves what he got I don't care if he never gets in the HOF in life or death. If I had a vote, I'd vote him in to the HOF but that's only because I think he earned it based on his on-field performance and IMO that's what the HOF is or should be about.
Good post ^^^^  
Jimmy Googs : 6/13/2021 9:02 am : link
As noted, baseball isn't going to forget Pete Rose just because he isn't in the HoF with a statue of his head. In fact, his own transgressions within the game have basically assured us his memory will continue as it is part of baseball history.

Nobody seemed to forget Shoeless Joe Jackson, and he's been dead for 70 years...
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