The wife and I were talking about this last night. I say yes they are waiting for him to die so they do not have to give him the honor while he lives.
His Crimea are antiquated as he is the best American hitter of all time (debate with him and Ichiro).
What say you?
So, the question seems to be: Does "lifetime" expire when he dies?
I hope not.
As I posted above, it's not a "lifetime ban", it's permanent ineligibility. The HOF views all players on that list as ineligible for inclusion in the Hall, alive or dead. Until they change their policy, his death makes no difference.
Joking, joking..
In regard to Rose betting against his own team - do we know if he was actually making the bet himself? This story is very old and I've forgotten the details.
Bud Selig is in and George Steinbrenner is not. Jim Rice is in and Pete Rose is not.
The baseball HOF needs to change it's name to the baseball museum of arbitrary admittance based on who your friends in the media and on the vets committee are.
How the hell can you put Jim Rice and Pete Rose in the same sentence?
Selig shouldn't be in the HOF, but at least he's not a convicted felon.
Joking, joking..
Terrible analogy.
It's not ok to bet on your team and there is no argument to defend it as ok, but some people (not me, but some people I have read) argue that indirectly you bet on your team to win every time they take the field (as a manager). And many managers manage each game like they need to win *that* game at all costs and don't manage for the long-term, but manage to the moment.
Whether you believe that or not (I do not believe it compared to betting though I do think some managers manage that way legitimately without money on the line and I understand the point)
Rose broke clearly established rules, he needs to live with the consequences, but I hope you can see there is a MASSIVE difference between betting on your team to win and betting on your team to lose.
However, the Pete Rose case isn't one of them. He bet on baseball when he was still playing and managing, and that doesn't work for baseball. This one is easy.
Next thing you all are going to tell me is Shoeless Joe Jackson shouldn't have been banned either...
Rose broke clearly established rules, he needs to live with the consequences, but I hope you can see there is a MASSIVE difference between betting on your team to win and betting on your team to lose.
Honestly, not sure I see a massive difference with respect to why both are a problem and against the rules.
In fact maybe that should be the test - allow him on the ballot and see how the overly sanctimonious (when it suits their interests) self absorbed, narcissistic, BBWAA voters vote. I wonder if Manfred/MLB knows how that would turn out.
Maybe they will eventually have a special wing in the HOF for the rule breakers and miscreants but who also earned entry to the HOF with their play, since with PED users entering (it's going to happen) the line starts getting more and more blurry on the character issues.
Pete held onto the lie so long. He made people believe he was the victim, and all that time he knew he did it.
The balls on this guy went years and years trying to get reinstated while keeping up a lie.
Cooperstown should never stoop so low as to add Pete Rose's name to it's annals.
If Pete bet against his team and then threw games to win money, that should have come out. If it's a fact, ban him forever. Don't hide facts and say it's for the good of the game. But that never came out as fact to my knowledge.
I personally don't give a crap if a guy bets ON his team. As long as everyone plays to win, the game isn't fixed. And that's what matters to me.
Link - ( New Window )
It's bad either way. In baseball, more than most sports, decisions made in individual games affect future games.
Truth be told he also used players health and well being as pawns to win bets. Always played to win sure, but who knows the futures of players who were not given a shot, or placed in a situation to only fail, some an injury missing a spot start etc. Please he had ZERO remorse.
When Bench and Morgan were on the veterans committee, they didn't support or push for his entry either.
Having a met Rose and also having a strong connection to a member of the team, confirms my opinion its only about the HOF title with the coin it would fill his pockets.
Rose agreed to the ban, thinking in a year or so baseball would never keep him out. Why? Because besides being the Hit king (although it took him approx. 1500 additional at bats just to equal Ty Cobb) and he considered himself Mr. Baseball.
*Commish died so Rose used it as an excuse for his delay.
*Rose said Bench did not support him because it conflicted with his HOF spotlight.
* Rose was fired from his baseball gig, issues with under age girls..the list goes on.
Excuses for excuses. Lately some form of sorrow from Rose because as age prevents him from enjoying the HOF Coin.
Just a leopard cannot alter his spots, Rose is who he is. Its sad, on multiple levels.
But the Steroid factor for others might open a door for Rose with the risk of a losing generational players not gaining entry during a lifetime of fans who actually saw them play.
Some have mentioned adding details to their HOF plaque.
It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
Pigs get slaughtered and that’s what happened here. No pity.
However, the Pete Rose case isn't one of them. He bet on baseball when he was still playing and managing, and that doesn't work for baseball. This one is easy.
Next thing you all are going to tell me is Shoeless Joe Jackson shouldn't have been banned either...
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there is lots of subjectivity when it comes to various hall of fame voting processes, and who deserves to be in based on their accomplishments.
However, the Pete Rose case isn't one of them. He bet on baseball when he was still playing and managing, and that doesn't work for baseball. This one is easy.
Next thing you all are going to tell me is Shoeless Joe Jackson shouldn't have been banned either...
I think there is a stronger case for Jackson allowed in. Most of the evidence points to him being extremely ignorant, not completely understanding what was going on, and not understanding what he was "signing" with his "confession". Plus, he had the best Series of any player on either team.
I've always thought that way too. He had a very good series and seemingly tried to win. I'm also with Googs here, he bet on the game. Whether there is a bigger evil on if he only bet when they won really doesn't matter. Just like point shaving is illegal and teams can still win the game, betting is strictly against the rules.
It's a bit like Lance Armstrong. Denying usage for so long and yet, in the end, he broke the rules and paid the price. You don't get extra points for denying you did something and it only brings in the specter that you did more.
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there is lots of subjectivity when it comes to various hall of fame voting processes, and who deserves to be in based on their accomplishments.
However, the Pete Rose case isn't one of them. He bet on baseball when he was still playing and managing, and that doesn't work for baseball. This one is easy.
Next thing you all are going to tell me is Shoeless Joe Jackson shouldn't have been banned either...
I think there is a stronger case for Jackson allowed in. Most of the evidence points to him being extremely ignorant, not completely understanding what was going on, and not understanding what he was "signing" with his "confession". Plus, he had the best Series of any player on either team.
It might be a different case but not one I would label as stronger.
Jackson's story and confessions were ever-changing in the scandal and subsequent investigation. And he may have been an ignorant and confused person, but one thing that he never disputed nor debated was his knowledge of the scam and admission of accepting at least $5,000 of an expected $20,000 payday as to his involvement.
As to his stats during the series, closer look at his performance indicates a significant difference in his batting production in games 1-5 (bad) versus 6-8 (good), particularly with men on base. The split being when the players finally got their money but received far less than what they were promised by the gamblers and decided to play on the up and up, and admitted to later.
Shoeless Joe was one of the greatest hitters of all-time but the evidence against him was pretty clear. And he was banned for it.
12-for-32 with 5 runs, 6 RBI, 3 doubles, a home run, one walk and two strikeouts. He came to bat 16 times with men on base, collecting 6 hits (.375) and plating 5 of the 21 runners on in front of him.
However, in the first five games he had 7 at-bats with men on base, with 10 runners on, and collected just one hit and no RBI.
It was in the final three games of the World Series that Jackson padded his stats: hitting 9-for-11 with men on base and collecting 5 RBI.
Overall Fielding:
While Jackson wasn't charged with any errors in the field during the Series, many that reviewed his play in left field as “letting up” on hit balls and allowing the Reds to get more bases than they should have, particularly in Games 1 & 2.
Perhaps it's just my generation, but I just turned 50 and when I was a kid growing up in the 70's playing wiffle ball and later Little League baseball, the players I always pretended to be were guys like Reggie Jackson, Carl Carl Yastrzemski (I had a confused childhood in Central CT), Pete Rose, Willie Stargell, and Johnny Bench. The only one of those names not in Cooperstown is Rose. It seems odd to not include him, even if it's just with an asterisk.
Ironically, despite being 3rd all-time with career batting avg of .356, throwing some of those world series games probably made Jackson more famous than anything else he did in his entire career. Field of Dreams of course didn't hurt either but personally always felt that flick is overrated.
To the more avid baseball fan (like me) Shoeless Joe was a great all-around player and one of the best pure hitters the game has ever seen. Simple fact is he screwed up and it cost him, but he was always be part of baseball lore whether he is in the HoF or not...
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In comment 15282522 Jimmy Googs said:
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there is lots of subjectivity when it comes to various hall of fame voting processes, and who deserves to be in based on their accomplishments.
However, the Pete Rose case isn't one of them. He bet on baseball when he was still playing and managing, and that doesn't work for baseball. This one is easy.
Next thing you all are going to tell me is Shoeless Joe Jackson shouldn't have been banned either...
I think there is a stronger case for Jackson allowed in. Most of the evidence points to him being extremely ignorant, not completely understanding what was going on, and not understanding what he was "signing" with his "confession". Plus, he had the best Series of any player on either team.
I've always thought that way too. He had a very good series and seemingly tried to win. I'm also with Googs here, he bet on the game. Whether there is a bigger evil on if he only bet when they won really doesn't matter. Just like point shaving is illegal and teams can still win the game, betting is strictly against the rules.
It's a bit like Lance Armstrong. Denying usage for so long and yet, in the end, he broke the rules and paid the price. You don't get extra points for denying you did something and it only brings in the specter that you did more.
If they let Schilling in, they should all be pumped in.
If they let Schilling in, they should all be pumped in.
There's really no comparison between Schilling and those guys, and if he gets in, that wouldn't be the slightest justification for either of them.
He’s been kept out because that’s the punishment he agreed to with Giamatti, in return for the reports on him being kept confidential. He didn’t want the dirt getting out and mistakenly thought over time MLB would cave and let him in.
As for those saying no proof he bet against his team, he didn’t have to. If he’s betting several times a week on his team to win,then doesn’t bet on a given day, what does that say to who’s placing his bets, the bookie and anyone connected to the bookie?
Time to load up on the opponent and make a nice score. Plus he was in prime position for inside info that day like if his pitcher wasn’t feeling well, had a sore arm, etc.
Either way there have been signs in every MLB clubhouse forbidding betting forever, and how seriously MLB views gambling on baseball. Pete got what he deserved and I don’t think he ever gets in., nor do I think he should get in.
If they let Schilling in, they should all be pumped in.
It's actually extremely different when you are betting on games that you are playing in/managing.
There's no MLB rule prohibiting alcoholism.
Yes, they are both very serious problems. But baseball has a clear strict policy against betting on the game in any fashion, and they have enforced it on Rose. Unlikely that reverses itself, at least in our lifetimes...
This is a great point. What Rose did was clearly worse than what Jackson did. Jackson had the best series of any hitter in the 1919 World Series that he supposedly threw. There was never really any proof that Jackson definitely participated in that scandal, and if he did then he did an awful job of it considering how well he played. Rose was caught red handed betting on his own teams games as a Manager which is about as bad as it gets in pro sports. MUCH worse than PEDs imo.
Should Rose be in the HOF? If I had a vote I'd say he belongs for his great playing career. But at the same time, I 100% agree with Rasputin that Rose should not get in before Jackson. BTW, Jackson died 70 years ago and still isn't in it.
Also as others have mentioned, "Best American Hitter" is an absolute joke. He wasn't even the Best American Hitter on those dominant Big Red Machine teams, that honor goes to the late Joe Morgan and it wasn't close.
C'mon.
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Pete Rose shouldn't either.
This is a great point. What Rose did was clearly worse than what Jackson did. Jackson had the best series of any hitter in the 1919 World Series that he supposedly threw. There was never really any proof that Jackson definitely participated in that scandal, and if he did then he did an awful job of it considering how well he played.
Summary of Joe Jackson's grand jury testimony...
On the afternoon of September 28, 1920, Jackson testified under oath before the grand jury. At the core of the Jackson testimony rests a contradiction. On the incriminating side of the ledger, Jackson provided a fairly detailed account of the fix from his perspective, including his acceptance of $5,000 before the start of Game Five. Notwithstanding that, Jackson insisted that he had done nothing in the field to earn his payoff, citing his World Series stats as proof that he had given his best efforts at all times during the action.
Jackson’s testimony about the corruption of the World Series was precise and specific. He had not attended the mid-September players-only fix meeting at the Ansonia Hotel in New York. Nor had he been present for a follow-up meeting with gamblers in Chicago’s Warner Hotel, although Lefty Williams had told him about it afterwards. Rather, Jackson had been propositioned privately by teammate Chick Gandil. At first, Jackson rebuffed him. But in time, Joe agreed to join the plot to throw the Series in return for a $20,000 payoff, to be “split up some way” after each series game.
On the evening before the White Sox were to return to Cincinnati for Game Five, Lefty Williams entered Jackson’s room at the Lexington Hotel and threw $5,000 onto the bed. At that, Jackson asked, “What the hell had come off here?” Williams replied that Gandil “said we got the screw through Abe Attell. He got the money but refused to turn it over to [Gandil].” But Jackson suspected that Gandil actually had the payoff money and had “kept the majority of it for himself.” When Jackson later complained to Gandil, Chick told him that he could either “take that [$5,000] or leave it alone.” That evening, when Jackson told his wife that he “got $5,000 for helping throw [Series] games,” Katie Jackson told Joe that “she thought it was an awful thing to do.” Jackson put the $5,000 — “some hundreds, mostly fifties” in denomination — in his pocket and took the money with him to Cincinnati.
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because by all accounts, he was an unlikeable asshole. If he was someone his peers actually liked, he'd probably be getting in in his golden years.
He’s been kept out because that’s the punishment he agreed to with Giamatti, in return for the reports on him being kept confidential. He didn’t want the dirt getting out and mistakenly thought over time MLB would cave and let him in.
As for those saying no proof he bet against his team, he didn’t have to. If he’s betting several times a week on his team to win,then doesn’t bet on a given day, what does that say to who’s placing his bets, the bookie and anyone connected to the bookie?
Time to load up on the opponent and make a nice score. Plus he was in prime position for inside info that day like if his pitcher wasn’t feeling well, had a sore arm, etc.
Either way there have been signs in every MLB clubhouse forbidding betting forever, and how seriously MLB views gambling on baseball. Pete got what he deserved and I don’t think he ever gets in., nor do I think he should get in.
Because the worry isn’t that some illegal bookie is going to rake in more cash, it’s that the sanctity of the game takes a hit with guys point shaving. That’s why gambling is illegal for these guys because it’s a slippery slope. In too deep with your bookie? Well there’s a way to rectify that. There’s no proof he disgraced the game itself, by purposely tanking games. I could really care less either way, but to deny him seems asinine to me based on the available information.
So a rule should be disregarded because you haven't seen proof that his violation of the rule resulting in something that isn't part of the rule?
None.
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In comment 15282444 Zeke's Alibi said:
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because by all accounts, he was an unlikeable asshole. If he was someone his peers actually liked, he'd probably be getting in in his golden years.
He’s been kept out because that’s the punishment he agreed to with Giamatti, in return for the reports on him being kept confidential. He didn’t want the dirt getting out and mistakenly thought over time MLB would cave and let him in.
As for those saying no proof he bet against his team, he didn’t have to. If he’s betting several times a week on his team to win,then doesn’t bet on a given day, what does that say to who’s placing his bets, the bookie and anyone connected to the bookie?
Time to load up on the opponent and make a nice score. Plus he was in prime position for inside info that day like if his pitcher wasn’t feeling well, had a sore arm, etc.
Either way there have been signs in every MLB clubhouse forbidding betting forever, and how seriously MLB views gambling on baseball. Pete got what he deserved and I don’t think he ever gets in., nor do I think he should get in.
Because the worry isn’t that some illegal bookie is going to rake in more cash, it’s that the sanctity of the game takes a hit with guys point shaving. That’s why gambling is illegal for these guys because it’s a slippery slope. In too deep with your bookie? Well there’s a way to rectify that. There’s no proof he disgraced the game itself, by purposely tanking games. I could really care less either way, but to deny him seems asinine to me based on the available information.
Why did he agree to the lifetime banishment and it making him ineligible to the HOF then? That’s all the available info anyone needs.
What Rose couldn't predict was two years AFTER he agreed to the suspension, after Giamatti died - at the prodding of Giamatti friend and new commissioner Fay Vincent, the MLB HOF passed a rule that made anyone on MLB's ineligible list would be banned from appearing on the HOF ballot.
Also, if you read anything or listen to anything from around that time - all Giamatti wanted was remorse and contrition - if Rose had come clean - completely clean even behind closed doors with Giamatti I think they would/could have come to some type of agreement when Rose could be reinstated or Giamatti wouldn't have been so adamant about not being HOF eligible.
But Rose was so arrogant and cocky and continued to lie about it and stall the whole process with legal shenanigans and bad faith and that was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak and no commissioner now wants to be the one to "not have his predecessor's back".
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Because the worry isn’t that some illegal bookie is going to rake in more cash, it’s that the sanctity of the game takes a hit with guys point shaving. That’s why gambling is illegal for these guys because it’s a slippery slope. In too deep with your bookie? Well there’s a way to rectify that. There’s no proof he disgraced the game itself, by purposely tanking games. I could really care less either way, but to deny him seems asinine to me based on the available information.
So a rule should be disregarded because you haven't seen proof that his violation of the rule resulting in something that isn't part of the rule?
No, it’s just that while he broke the rule, he didn’t violate the reason the rule got put in place. It’s why there’s debate on whether he should be in or not.
Well first of all, we don't know whether he violated "the reason the rule got put in place" or not. No evidence has been put forward showing he purposely lost games. That doesn't mean he didn't do that (personally, I think it's implausible that he didn't sometimes make decisions that benefited one game at the expense of another based on which games he'd bet on, but who knows).
But regardless, yes, you are literally saying what I said before - you think the rule should be disregarded because you haven't seen proof that his violation of the rule resulted in him doing something (purposely throwing games) that isn't even part of the rule. And after all, teams purposely tank games all the time at the end of the season. Maybe not NBA-level, but it's pretty clear that it goes on. MLB could prohibit that by rule. But they don't. They could make the rule, no gambling and then altering how you play the game to benefit your gambling. But they don't. They prohibit exactly what Rose did, something of which he was fully aware when he did it.
What Rose couldn't predict was two years AFTER he agreed to the suspension, after Giamatti died - at the prodding of Giamatti friend and new commissioner Fay Vincent, the MLB HOF passed a rule that made anyone on MLB's ineligible list would be banned from appearing on the HOF ballot.
Also, if you read anything or listen to anything from around that time - all Giamatti wanted was remorse and contrition - if Rose had come clean - completely clean even behind closed doors with Giamatti I think they would/could have come to some type of agreement when Rose could be reinstated or Giamatti wouldn't have been so adamant about not being HOF eligible.
But Rose was so arrogant and cocky and continued to lie about it and stall the whole process with legal shenanigans and bad faith and that was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak and no commissioner now wants to be the one to "not have his predecessor's back".
Yes I remember all that but it was never a guarantee he would be reinstated, regardless of what he thought or hoped. He had no way of knowing what the future held as far as Bart or Fay but he did know exactly what he was agreeing too.
You’re right about the possibility/conditions but since he showed absolutely no remorse, and with Bart’s passing, he was held to the original agreement, and rightfully so IMO.
I remember reading something immediately after the suspension while giving a press conference where Rose said he was looking forward to his daughter's 1st birthday because it was 2 days before he'd be reinstated (something like that).
Rose never got the magnitude of what he did or how serious anyone felt it was, until much later in life.
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In comment 15283216 Zeke's Alibi said:
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Because the worry isn’t that some illegal bookie is going to rake in more cash, it’s that the sanctity of the game takes a hit with guys point shaving. That’s why gambling is illegal for these guys because it’s a slippery slope. In too deep with your bookie? Well there’s a way to rectify that. There’s no proof he disgraced the game itself, by purposely tanking games. I could really care less either way, but to deny him seems asinine to me based on the available information.
So a rule should be disregarded because you haven't seen proof that his violation of the rule resulting in something that isn't part of the rule?
No, it’s just that while he broke the rule, he didn’t violate the reason the rule got put in place. It’s why there’s debate on whether he should be in or not.
Whether he did or didn't violate the reason the rule got in place is a convenient and selective sidestep.
First and foremost, its not relevant. Second, not certain how you know all of the very reason(s) themselves. And third, not certain how you know he didn't violate any of them even if they were relevant.
Yes, there is a debate on whether he should be in or not. However, it is not a debate by Major League Baseball or the Hall of Fame as they have already spoken and ruled several times on the topic.
Nevertheless, would think the fans having the debate are best served to stick to at least the relevant facts.
I remember reading something immediately after the suspension while giving a press conference where Rose said he was looking forward to his daughter's 1st birthday because it was 2 days before he'd be reinstated (something like that).
Rose never got the magnitude of what he did or how serious anyone felt it was, until much later in life.
Agree with all of this as well
I remember reading something immediately after the suspension while giving a press conference where Rose said he was looking forward to his daughter's 1st birthday because it was 2 days before he'd be reinstated (something like that).
Rose never got the magnitude of what he did or how serious anyone felt it was, until much later in life.
Great memory man, and I remember that as well.
You’re right about his mindset, and to me that and his ego are what has hurt him big time.
When he agreed to the conditions with Giamatti, it was because he didn’t want the details leaked and figured I’ll just sign this and I’m too big for them to deny me down the road.
I think that arrogance and him basically thumbing his nose at MLB along the way, caused Faye to basically dig his heals in and play some real hard ball. Now they use that agreement as all the evidence they need to keep him out and I don’t think he ever gets in now.
He might’ve had a slight chance years ago if he fessed up, and showed remorse but he took the opposite approach, and is paying the price. Rightfully so to me.
Had Rose accepted that he had this condition, and received treatment for a cure, I think he would have been in decades ago.